Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: Heayan, welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and Chuck's here
Speaker 2: and Jerry's here and this is Stuff you should Know
Speaker 2: and it's a podcast and the three of us are
Speaker 2: part of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is an article on the science of kindness,
Speaker 1: which somehow put me in a bad mood. I don't
Speaker 1: know what that says about me. I don't know why.
Speaker 2: I don't know why either. It's very odd, but I
Speaker 2: kind of know what you're talking about. If we're like,
Speaker 2: the topic overall that we're going to talk about, I
Speaker 2: think is going to bring joy to people. But they'll
Speaker 2: get angry along the way. But hopefully when by the
Speaker 2: time we're done, those who are still listening will be like,
Speaker 2: all right, I'm feeling good again.
Speaker 1: All right, let's talk about it, and let's start with animals,
Speaker 1: because in fact, we can direct people too. We did
Speaker 1: a great episode I think on animal altruism.
Speaker 2: Is that what it was called, Yeah, biological altruism something
Speaker 2: like that, where we talked about this sort of leading
Speaker 2: fact as we lead into humans and kindness, the fact
Speaker 2: that you know, animals all throughout.
Speaker 1: The animal world display acts of kindness, and many times
Speaker 1: they are altruistic in that they're not looking for anything
Speaker 1: other than to help out their bird meat or monkey
Speaker 1: meat or ant meat.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you short on last minute gift ideas, go look
Speaker 2: in on what the macaques are given each other kindness.
Speaker 2: So it's in animals, we know that, we have evidence
Speaker 2: of it. Yeah, it's also in humans. We have pretty
Speaker 2: good evidence of that too, that kindness is a thing.
Speaker 2: But it definitely seems the fact that it's in animals
Speaker 2: as well suggests that it's in us on some genetic level.
Speaker 2: It's not just society being like be kind rewind, you know,
Speaker 2: like like there's an actual imperative, a biological imperative for it.
Speaker 2: And what's odd about is that most people would think
Speaker 2: that flies in the face of survival of the fittest. Basically,
Speaker 2: Darwin's whole jam that you know, looking out for number
Speaker 2: one is kind of it might not be the antithesis
Speaker 2: of kindness, but it certainly doesn't go hand in hand.
Speaker 2: And yet when you dig into Darwin you're like, oh,
Speaker 2: he was actually big time into kindness.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he talked, He wrote a lot of stuff about
Speaker 1: communities cooperating and not just like hey, it's better if
Speaker 1: you cooperate and to go kill that wooly mammoth. But
Speaker 1: but like compassion and empathy are are are markers of
Speaker 1: a healthy community and a community that will survive in
Speaker 1: a fitter way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like if Tuktok pushed jib Job out of the
Speaker 2: way right as he was about to throw a spear
Speaker 2: into the wooly mammoth, JibJab took took, took the shot
Speaker 2: and took the mammoth down and got all the praise.
Speaker 2: He's got hurt feelings between him and jib Job, right.
Speaker 1: He's got to go to Jim introducing a new character.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's happening before your very.
Speaker 1: Eyes, while it's exciting in you're sixteen.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so like in those communities and communities now, like
Speaker 2: the thing that just kind of keeps things not just
Speaker 2: going the you can go as a society in a
Speaker 2: dystopian manner, but it's not a good society. It's not thriving.
Speaker 2: I think the thing that makes it thrive, and then
Speaker 2: a thriving society is much more likely to survive and
Speaker 2: reproduce because everybody wants it to because they're having a
Speaker 2: great time. Are things like kindness it's one of those
Speaker 2: lubricators that helps us society go from surviving to thriving.
Speaker 1: I agree. And it's also something that you know you see, well,
Speaker 1: hopefully you see firsthand when you have a kid. If
Speaker 1: you don't, that doesn't mean that you know your child
Speaker 1: is broken, because there are all kinds of reasons that
Speaker 1: a kid may not just sort of be innately kind.
Speaker 1: They might not like you, maybe you're the problem, dad,
Speaker 1: But the study after study has shown that men children
Speaker 1: are sort of innately kind to other people. And that,
Speaker 1: of course, this is just me editorializing the second part,
Speaker 1: and it is later as you grow up and be
Speaker 1: a cynical adult, is when those kindnesses go away. But
Speaker 1: you see examples all the time when you have a kid,
Speaker 1: of your kid and other children and their friends and
Speaker 1: classmates being kind to one another, and it's it is
Speaker 1: truly heartwarming to see and makes you think, like, oh,
Speaker 1: like maybe because this is what we're kind of talking about,
Speaker 1: like are we innately good people like as humans? And
Speaker 1: those examples kind of indicate that, yeah, we maybe are
Speaker 1: good humans to begin with, like, and we're going to
Speaker 1: talk about a lot of studies and experiments in this episode,
Speaker 1: but This one was one where they had a kid
Speaker 1: and they had some treats like little candies or something.
Speaker 2: They had goldfish or Teddy grams.
Speaker 1: I was just I was trying to not name check,
Speaker 1: but sure.
Speaker 2: Those are money treats, man, they deserve, like we need
Speaker 2: to lay it out there just how valuable these treats were.
Speaker 1: And then they had these little puppet puppets. I was
Speaker 1: gonna say puppet things, but puppets are puppets. So what
Speaker 1: they would do was and what they're trying to get
Speaker 1: at is like how happy did because you know, that's
Speaker 1: sort of at the root of all all this is like,
Speaker 1: and we'll talk later about when you receive a kindness.
Speaker 1: Of course that makes sense that you're gonna feel great,
Speaker 1: but does it feel good and make you happy to
Speaker 1: do a kindness? And so they had this little puppets
Speaker 1: and they said, all right, we're going to give these
Speaker 1: puppets a goldfish sometimes and we're going to see how
Speaker 1: happy that makes you. A little kid, We're going to
Speaker 1: give you a goldfish to give to that puppet. We're
Speaker 1: gonna see how happy that makes you. And then we're
Speaker 1: gonna also just give you a bunch of goldfish and
Speaker 1: say those are yours, but maybe you should give the
Speaker 1: puppet one of your own. And the ones where the
Speaker 1: like the happiest kids were the ones where they are
Speaker 1: instances at least, were the ones where the kids gay
Speaker 1: of their own stash, of their own head stash right
Speaker 1: to these puppets.
Speaker 2: Like they were happy seeing the puppet get a treat, sure,
Speaker 2: but they were happier to give that puppet a treat
Speaker 2: of its own, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And they weren't necessarily doing that so they would
Speaker 1: look good for the study.
Speaker 2: It seems exactly these were toddlers. I think they were
Speaker 2: two or less two or younger. There's another study that
Speaker 2: kind of found something similar that paid attention to little
Speaker 2: kids and how they responded to a grown up needing help,
Speaker 2: and they showed that kids definitely do enter distress might
Speaker 2: be kind of a harsh word for it, but there's
Speaker 2: a concern state that's much better. They are concerned. And
Speaker 2: apparently you can track that by your pupils dilating. And
Speaker 2: this is the Max Planck Institute, so they're pretty legit,
Speaker 2: but they were tracking kids pupils dilating. So an adult
Speaker 2: would drop something and have trouble picking it up and
Speaker 2: the kids pupils would dilate, so they were concerned. The
Speaker 2: kids became happiest or became less concerned or unconcerned when
Speaker 2: they were able to help, But then second to that,
Speaker 2: they were also unconcerned. They stopped feeling concerned after they
Speaker 2: saw somebody else help the grown up. So it's not
Speaker 2: like you were saying, it's not just about getting credit.
Speaker 2: It's not just about thinking you're making adults happy. Like
Speaker 2: these kids were genuinely relieved to see somebody getting help
Speaker 2: even when they couldn't help them, And that helps underscore
Speaker 2: the idea that yeah, or were biologically kind in our genes.
Speaker 1: Did the people who organize the study account did they
Speaker 1: make sure they just accounted for the dilation of pupils
Speaker 1: by making sure testing these kids for methan fetibine us.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's that's step one a p test.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, that checks out. Then.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the ones who they find outside of the
Speaker 2: lab hours before sunrise digging a hole inexplicably, they pretty
Speaker 2: much just get them out of the population right away.
Speaker 1: So people have been trying to I guess group and
Speaker 1: measure and come up with scales on how to measure
Speaker 1: kindness and happiness and stuff like that for a long
Speaker 1: long time. And one way to measure it that they've
Speaker 1: come up with is something called the Interpersonal Reactivity Index,
Speaker 1: which is sort of an empathy measurement, which is great.
Speaker 1: There's another one called the Inventory of Strengths that looks
Speaker 1: at behavior treats kindness as a behavior. But these researchers
Speaker 1: at Huddlesfield University of Huddlesfield in the UK in twenty seventeen,
Speaker 1: they're like, all right, let's create a scale that's going
Speaker 1: to measure like different aspects of being kind and see
Speaker 1: if we can group them. And they did. They had
Speaker 1: a forty item question in airon ended up clustering into
Speaker 1: three groups, the first one being benign tolerance, which it's
Speaker 1: like an everyday kindness, like hey you got groceries, why
Speaker 1: don't you take my seat on the subway? That kind
Speaker 1: of thing. Yeah, it's a kindness, Yeah, it's an everyday
Speaker 1: sort of kindness. Empathetic responsivity responsivity yeah yeah, is the
Speaker 1: next one, and that is a more emotional and then
Speaker 1: much more personal and much more specific to a person.
Speaker 2: Right, like this is somebody you have what they consider
Speaker 2: strong ties to like a close friend or a family
Speaker 2: member or something like that. So you're doing something kind
Speaker 2: to them maybe when they need help, responding to them empathetically.
Speaker 1: Which is great, really really well said yeah. And then
Speaker 1: the last one is principal proaction, and this is altruism
Speaker 1: but a little less emotional, like, you know, go look
Speaker 1: at my record books. I give a lot of money
Speaker 1: to charity.
Speaker 2: Sure. So what they found though, so all of the
Speaker 2: forty questions on the inventory, those they all basically clustered
Speaker 2: into those three umbrellas. But they found three different things
Speaker 2: that were common to all three of the little islands
Speaker 2: of kindness, and those were they were, Yeah, Islands of
Speaker 2: Kindness is a great band name, You're right, synthpop. Sure,
Speaker 2: so they were I feel sorry for other people when
Speaker 2: they experience problems. I like to make other people feel happy,
Speaker 2: and people think I have a soft heart. And what
Speaker 2: they came to, uh to kind of identify those three
Speaker 2: things together that showed up under principal pact proaction, empathetic responsivity,
Speaker 2: and benign tolerance. They can they said that that's your
Speaker 2: core kindness. But that's that's the that's the basic thing
Speaker 2: that makes people genuinely kind. Those are the things that
Speaker 2: if you put those three things together, you have a
Speaker 2: kind person. You can have other people doing kind things,
Speaker 2: but they're not necessarily kind. And they even had a
Speaker 2: measurement of unkindness. Nine of the questions were basically like
Speaker 2: are you a jerk? Answer yes or no? They're like,
Speaker 2: come on, answer that was question two. Be honest was
Speaker 2: question three, and so on and so forth. And they
Speaker 2: found that people who rated as unkind, say in one thing,
Speaker 2: I think maybe benign tolerance, they still rated highly in
Speaker 2: empathetic responsivity or principal pro action. So it's not like
Speaker 2: even if you're unkind on paper that you don't do
Speaker 2: kind things. What they were saying is genuinely kind people
Speaker 2: check those three boxes.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think on the questionnaire it should say are
Speaker 1: you a jerk? And the only option is no? And
Speaker 1: then the next question is do other people think you're
Speaker 1: a jerk? And the only option is yes. Between those
Speaker 1: two is the truth. They also found that women scored
Speaker 1: higher than men generally speaking, and very specifically on benign
Speaker 1: tolerance and principal pro action. Yeah, and this was very interesting.
Speaker 1: There was no overall difference based on the age of
Speaker 1: the participant, but if you were over forty, then you
Speaker 1: would score higher on Prince pro action, which kind of
Speaker 1: makes sense if that's like giving to charity, because I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't think I had enough money to even give
Speaker 1: to charity when I was younger.
Speaker 2: I think too, that's that's also a measure of like replacing,
Speaker 2: like adding distance to your kindness, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, it's not just like donating.
Speaker 2: You don't show up at like the house that the
Speaker 2: charity is, like, you know, supporting, you're just giving to
Speaker 2: that charity.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And also you know I said that I didn't
Speaker 1: have enough money to give to charity. That's not true you.
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna say always there are people that are
Speaker 1: genuinely living like week to week and day to day
Speaker 1: with their finances, so I'm not talking about that. But
Speaker 1: in my twenties I could have, you know, not done
Speaker 1: the one thing to give ten dollars to another thing.
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying. I know it was, But
Speaker 1: you can't give time if you don't have money. It's
Speaker 1: just another way to be cheir.
Speaker 2: So one thing about that though, real quick before you
Speaker 2: move on. I remember plenty of studies have turned up
Speaker 2: that people of middle to lower socioeconomic status tend to
Speaker 2: give more to charity than people higher up in the
Speaker 2: socioeconomic status.
Speaker 1: Yeah, is that more total monies are more like based
Speaker 1: on their relative income?
Speaker 2: I think yeah, I think relatively speaking, yeah, because I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, like a billionaire could give a million dollars
Speaker 2: and be like eat my dust. Right, lower socioeconomic people,
Speaker 2: but that you know, relative to their wealth, it's not
Speaker 2: really that big of a deal. Whereas somebody lower on
Speaker 2: the scale or with less money, they gave a thousand dollars,
Speaker 2: that might mean a lot more than a million dollars
Speaker 2: to a billionaire.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and boy, what a lesson to Let's say you're
Speaker 1: a single parent with a few kids and you're really struggling.
Speaker 1: What a lesson to your kids to be like, you
Speaker 1: know what, I found a twenty dollars bill a day
Speaker 1: and we're going to put two dollars in this eyes can.
Speaker 1: That seems like he needs it more than we do,
Speaker 1: even but.
Speaker 2: We're gonna get it and change. So it sounds like
Speaker 2: a lot because he's not paying attention, but he'll hear it.
Speaker 1: Go get two hundred pennies. Said, should we take a break?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, all right, let's take a break. We'll be
Speaker 1: right back, all right. We've talked about the runners high before,
Speaker 1: that uphooric sense that a runner can feel at a
Speaker 1: at a certain mile on the road or in the
Speaker 1: woods or wherever you're running. Can you get a runner
Speaker 1: sigh on a treadmill?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, anytime, anytime you're exerting your body running for
Speaker 2: a while.
Speaker 1: Okay, I didn't have. I had something to do with
Speaker 1: the environment and fresh air and stuff like that.
Speaker 2: It might trigger it a little faster, who knows, but yes,
Speaker 2: you can.
Speaker 1: Right all that to say, there's a helper's high that
Speaker 1: they found. This is in the nineteen eighties that they
Speaker 1: first reclued into this, and that is just what you
Speaker 1: might think is after doing a kindness to someone, you
Speaker 1: might feel a sense of exhilaration, you might feel a
Speaker 1: very nice period of calm afterward. They have found, depending
Speaker 1: on the kindness I guess in the person, that can
Speaker 1: really get you going for a few weeks sometimes. And
Speaker 1: this is really interesting, I thought, psychologically, are these next
Speaker 1: couple of things is that you can get that same
Speaker 1: high just by thinking back on that kindness you did
Speaker 1: like a month ago.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty interesting. Heck yeah, that's interesting. But if
Speaker 2: you stop and think about it, it's anecdotally speaking of
Speaker 2: course that works like that, but when you see it
Speaker 2: on paper, it's kind of astounding that you can think
Speaker 2: about something like you said you did a month ago
Speaker 2: and feel good about it all over again. That's pretty cool.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And we do know that there are literal physical
Speaker 1: symptoms of kindnesses and the effect like better immune function,
Speaker 1: your stress hormones are going to go down and stuff
Speaker 1: like that. But it makes me wonder, if you, like,
Speaker 1: if you can call up that kindness you did a
Speaker 1: month ago when you're starting to feel like you're getting
Speaker 1: a cold, would that literally help you avoid a cold? Oh?
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, without a question. Okay, it's a good reason
Speaker 2: to be kind Yeah, and have a good memory. Yeah,
Speaker 2: there's there's another so another way you could put kindness.
Speaker 2: It's probably not exactly interchangeable, but it's close enough. It's
Speaker 2: pro social behavior. Yeah, because I don't think we said
Speaker 2: something that's really important. Kindness is it's it's it's action.
Speaker 2: It's always an action, like it's not just thinking something.
Speaker 2: Thinking something is not kindness. You can have kind thought, sure,
Speaker 2: but kindness is always an action and in fact, kindness
Speaker 2: dot org, which is a nonprofit that's basically like a
Speaker 2: that supports kindness research. They say that kindness is a
Speaker 2: meta value which is just right out of the gate,
Speaker 2: knocks your socks off, and that it encompasses acts of altruism, empathy, justice, respect,
Speaker 2: and more. And that is always an action, often done
Speaker 2: with the intention to benefit and sometimes but not always,
Speaker 2: driven by emotion, which I mean if you get to
Speaker 2: define kindness there, it is right there. And another way
Speaker 2: to explain that is saying pro social behavior, you're acting
Speaker 2: in a way that is kind, right, So people have
Speaker 2: studied pro social behavior more than they've studied kindness, So
Speaker 2: you can kind of take some of those pro social
Speaker 2: behavior studies and apply them to kindness research too. And
Speaker 2: that's exactly what a twenty twenty meta analysis did from
Speaker 2: Hong Kong Polytechnic.
Speaker 1: You that's right, great school, it's got to be right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was reading about it. I think it's actually
Speaker 2: one of the best schools in the world. Yeah. See,
Speaker 2: And they do not have a mask guy. As far
Speaker 2: as they could tell, it's either an owl or winning
Speaker 2: the Pooh. I couldn't make heads or tails of some
Speaker 2: of the photos.
Speaker 1: Let's go with me the pooh go poos. All right,
Speaker 1: So they did a meta analysis like you're saying, in
Speaker 1: twenty twenty and found that pro social behavior that you
Speaker 1: so aptly defined was very closely linked with something called
Speaker 1: I'm gonna call it udae amonic well being I think so,
Speaker 1: or either that or you demonic maybe that's a silent eye,
Speaker 1: who knows, But that is a happiness. That is, it's
Speaker 1: sort of happiness. Plus it's associated with more meaning and
Speaker 1: more purpose than an ordinary happiness, like oh boy, this
Speaker 1: ice cream tastes good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I've seen so you have well being. I've
Speaker 2: seen you demonic well being or happiness as well, doing
Speaker 2: like you're doing stuff that makes you happy rather than
Speaker 2: just feeling happy, and that in and of itself as
Speaker 2: a component of well being that's pretty cool. So there's
Speaker 2: also that same I think meta analysis turned up that
Speaker 2: if you help somebody informally, you typically receive more personal benefits,
Speaker 2: like more happiness or a sense of reward than you
Speaker 2: do if you're formally you know, being kind, like organizing
Speaker 2: a charity or even writing a check to charity.
Speaker 1: That makes sense, yeah, because it's like a surprise for
Speaker 1: you as well. If it's an opportunity to perform a kindness.
Speaker 1: And by the way, I don't only say a kindness
Speaker 1: because of the gentleman from Winnebago Man, the Great Great documentary.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember that, but I don't remember him saying
Speaker 2: a kindness.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he said all the time, do me a kindness,
Speaker 1: and you know, yeah, get me a coffee.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: But it kind of fits though, because a kindness is
Speaker 1: an act. So it's like it turns it into an
Speaker 1: action almost by making it a noun or.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, an adverb?
Speaker 1: Is that an adverb?
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: No, it's not an advert.
Speaker 2: I'm about as good at English as I am at math.
Speaker 1: No that's not true. Oh thanks, you're much gooder at English.
Speaker 1: So oh, I don't even know where I was going
Speaker 1: with this, because all I can think about is Winnibigo Man.
Speaker 2: You were talking about, Oh.
Speaker 1: The surprise of a kindness that presents itself, that you
Speaker 1: can like, all of a sudden, you're at the grocery
Speaker 1: store and there's an opportunity for you to perform a kindness.
Speaker 1: That I get that that might mean more to you
Speaker 1: than on a happiness level than like organizing a charity
Speaker 1: because organizing a volunteer day or something is a lot
Speaker 1: of work, and it can be a pain, and there
Speaker 1: can be frustrations, and even though the end result is
Speaker 1: you've done something well, at the end of that day,
Speaker 1: you probably sit in your chair and you're like, oh man,
Speaker 1: that was a lot. But when you just do a
Speaker 1: small kindness, it's a surprise for you, and so of
Speaker 1: course you're going to be like, that was the best
Speaker 1: thing ever. I was just the best dude, and it
Speaker 1: only took me thirty seconds.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And what's neat is there's other research, so we'll
Speaker 2: talk about down the line that basically finds that surprise
Speaker 2: is an element of the happiness that can come out
Speaker 2: of acts of kindness.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think there's definitely something to that.
Speaker 1: Chuck, Yeah, and the best way to scare people.
Speaker 2: So there's another study. I've got another study at my sleeve.
Speaker 2: You want to hear about it.
Speaker 1: Let's hear it.
Speaker 2: They were trying to say, Okay, like, great job coming
Speaker 2: up with a kindness skill. But what are we really
Speaker 2: measuring here? Are we measuring actual acts of kindness making
Speaker 2: people happy? Or is there some other thing that we
Speaker 2: don't realize We're measuring. So they actually very cleverly kind
Speaker 2: of broke it out into a few components and they
Speaker 2: had people either do something kind for others, an active kindness,
Speaker 2: something kind for themselves still an active kindness, but not
Speaker 2: for anybody else, totally extroverted behavior that's not kindness, So
Speaker 2: maybe striking up a neutral conversation about the weather with
Speaker 2: a stranger it is hot, right, or doing something that's
Speaker 2: open minded but it's not social and it's not kind.
Speaker 2: And the example that Olivia gave was engaging with art,
Speaker 2: like going to see you know, going to a museum, right, Okay,
Speaker 2: all of those things can make you happy. And the
Speaker 2: University of California psychologists wanted to see if we were
Speaker 2: accidentally measuring that, and what they found is that the
Speaker 2: people who did acts of kindness for other people were
Speaker 2: far and away happier than the other three groups.
Speaker 1: Yeah, pretty interesting. And in that little bit you mentioned,
Speaker 1: one of the things that covered for was doing a
Speaker 1: kindness for yourself. There was a twenty nineteen paper from
Speaker 1: Oxford University where they found that acts of kindness to
Speaker 1: other people and acts of kindness to yourself had about
Speaker 1: the same positive effect on your happiness and I didn't
Speaker 1: read that as like, oh, well, that just shoots holes
Speaker 1: in the previous theory. I saw it as like, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: your brain is still receiving those triggers that like you're
Speaker 1: doing a kindness and you're a person too, and you
Speaker 1: need kindness is to be done for you, and if
Speaker 1: you're the one doing it, then great. Exactly, you know
Speaker 1: you should be kind to yourself.
Speaker 2: Be kind to yourself.
Speaker 1: That's right, and rewind So I.
Speaker 2: Saw something explained like the feeling that you get from
Speaker 2: the helpers high, explained by pointing out that acts of
Speaker 2: kindness are actually an exertion for us, just like exercises
Speaker 2: an exertion. Anything beyond what we need to do to
Speaker 2: survive that day is technically an exertion, and our bodies
Speaker 2: created this reward system to overcome the sense of exertion
Speaker 2: or pain or sore muscles or loss of giving up
Speaker 2: your goldfish treat to a puppet and flooding us with
Speaker 2: chemicals that make us feel better. So that totally explains
Speaker 2: the biochemical basis for that Helper's high, for the sense
Speaker 2: of being rewarded by doing an act of kindness or
Speaker 2: just a kindness, and that it's kind of apparently centrally
Speaker 2: located in the vegas nerve, which, if you'll remember from
Speaker 2: More Organism episode, is really responsible for that. It's a
Speaker 2: huge part of the parasympathetic autonomic nervous system, which is
Speaker 2: the opposite of flight. It's like chill and chill instead
Speaker 2: of fight or flight.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like getting your breathing under control and your tummy
Speaker 1: feeling good and your heart rate a little lower, stuff
Speaker 1: like that. We talked about it quite a few times.
Speaker 1: I feel like over the years, it's only in mammals.
Speaker 1: It's very unique to mammals. And because it is a
Speaker 1: part of that autonomic nervous system, it's connected to like
Speaker 1: basically all the organs right, Like, it's affecting everything inside
Speaker 1: your body, which is great, and it's you know, what's
Speaker 1: going to give you that warm feeling when it's active,
Speaker 1: when you've done a kindness to someone, that's where that
Speaker 1: warm feeling is coming from, basically.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and specifically it's oxytocin. They've linked that to kindness
Speaker 2: and that helper's high and that is it's frequently called
Speaker 2: the love hormone. It's it is around from every event,
Speaker 2: like a mother holding a newborn baby. Skin to skin
Speaker 2: for the first time. That's a huge oxytocin release. To
Speaker 2: doing an active kindness for somebody, is that warm feeling
Speaker 2: in your chest, that feeling that where like you just
Speaker 2: suddenly are like I could if I really thought about it,
Speaker 2: I could cry right now, Like you just feel so
Speaker 2: good and just overwhelmed with positive feelings. That's oxytocin, and
Speaker 2: acts of kindness have been shown to release oxytocin. That
Speaker 2: seems to be part of the basis of that helper's high. So, however,
Speaker 2: you can get oxytocin, get it, that's my motto.
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally an interesting thing to jumping back a sec
Speaker 1: to that twenty nineteen Oxford paper that talked about doing
Speaker 1: a kindness on oneself. I found this particularly interesting. Okay,
Speaker 1: just witnessing an act of kindness can also have a
Speaker 1: similar effect on you, which is amazing, And that makes
Speaker 1: me wonder if our old friend's mirror neurons are not
Speaker 1: involved somehow.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I would think so, because empathy has to
Speaker 2: be involved, Like you have to feel something towards somebody
Speaker 2: who you're helping, or else you just wouldn't even think
Speaker 2: to help them. You'd probably just be like huh huh
Speaker 2: you know m hm. So yeah, if empathy is involved
Speaker 2: in the mirror, neurons have to be involved. It's just
Speaker 2: the way it goes.
Speaker 1: Friend, But we've I mean, who hasn't watched the one
Speaker 1: of those internet videos on Instagram or wherever where you
Speaker 1: see a real kindness and you know they got that
Speaker 1: piano music plan and all of a sudden you're tearing
Speaker 1: up like your body is firing all those same neurons, apparently,
Speaker 1: according to Oxford, as if you had done that kindness yourself, right,
Speaker 1: like feel good neurons.
Speaker 2: You got that rascal for that veteran, like you did that.
Speaker 2: For all intents and purposes, none of us have to
Speaker 2: do anything. As long as there's some people out there
Speaker 2: doing kindnesses and posting those videos on the internet, the
Speaker 2: rest of us can just get the benefits from it
Speaker 2: without having a lift a finger.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you go into your therapist and they're they're like,
Speaker 1: I know you have a problem with uh empathy and kindnesses?
Speaker 1: Did you do any this week? And you're like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I watch like three videos.
Speaker 2: Exactly make you feel great. Yeah, So should we take
Speaker 2: another break and then come back and talk about how
Speaker 2: it helps people who kindness is given to. Sure, Okay,
Speaker 2: we're going to do that. So I think it's beyond
Speaker 2: ridiculous to say that a person who is the beneficiary
Speaker 2: of an act of kindness gets something out of it too.
Speaker 2: They literally get something out of it in a lot
Speaker 2: of times, like if it's a veteran and the rascal
Speaker 2: that a bunch of people donated to buy him, it
Speaker 2: can be a goldfish treat, like they benefit in that sense,
Speaker 2: but they also benefit emotionally as well. And what they
Speaker 2: found in a bunch of different studies is kind of
Speaker 2: what we were talking about before that other elements like surprise,
Speaker 2: just the gesture, the thought, Like they say it's the
Speaker 2: thought that counts well. Some kind of studies have basically
Speaker 2: turned that up that if you don't just think about it,
Speaker 2: but you actually follow through, the people are more moved
Speaker 2: by the thought, by the gesture than they are by
Speaker 2: the goldfish treat or the rascal. Although I mean, if
Speaker 2: you give somebody a rascal, they're probably going to be
Speaker 2: pretty happy.
Speaker 1: What's a rascal?
Speaker 2: Oh, it's a little mobilized get around kart that you
Speaker 2: see people riding. Oh Okayan stage or immobility.
Speaker 1: I got you all right, I didn't know those were
Speaker 1: called rascals.
Speaker 2: That is the original trading it for one of the brands,
Speaker 2: and it's just it's become kind of a proprietary eponym, Okay,
Speaker 2: at least in my house.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So one of the experiments they did to test
Speaker 1: this was in nineteen ninety five. They looked at unhoused
Speaker 1: folks who went to the ER a lot for treatment.
Speaker 1: And they had a controlled group who just got their
Speaker 1: regular old er visit, and then they had another group
Speaker 1: that had that visit plus student volunteers who would chat
Speaker 1: them up, talk about stuff and life and listen to
Speaker 1: them and held conversations and maybe gave them a goldfish
Speaker 1: or something. And they found that the members of the
Speaker 1: test group were twice as likely to rate their care
Speaker 1: higher sure, which you know makes perfect sense, and that
Speaker 1: and this was interesting. The number of ER visits among
Speaker 1: that group dropped by a third. Yeah, which I guess
Speaker 1: indicates that they're healthier.
Speaker 2: I guess the researchers took it to mean that the
Speaker 2: unhoused people who show up to the r over and
Speaker 2: over and over again are basically showing up until they
Speaker 2: feel like they're being treated like a human being and
Speaker 2: that that group were satisfied that they had received good
Speaker 2: care for once and they stopped coming back to try to,
Speaker 2: you know, get it out of the people in the er.
Speaker 1: Oh, and that is really interesting because another way to
Speaker 1: think of that is like, why didn't the people who
Speaker 1: got that warm care want to come back and say, like, boy,
Speaker 1: that was you know, that was pretty great that goldfish.
Speaker 1: I had a nice conversation with.
Speaker 2: A student I totally thought the same thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 2: So there's another study that involved cupcakes, and who doesn't
Speaker 2: want to talk about that.
Speaker 1: It's a good one.
Speaker 2: It is, it's a great one. So the researchers gave
Speaker 2: strangers or study participants a cupcake and said, here you go,
Speaker 2: here's a cupcake. You can do whatever you want with it,
Speaker 2: but you can also give it to a stranger if
Speaker 2: you like. And apparently eighty percent of the participants gave
Speaker 2: their cupcake away. Well I want to know those twenty percent.
Speaker 2: I hope they didn't tell them what they were actually studying,
Speaker 2: because I think you'd really have some real soul searching
Speaker 2: to do after you find out that you're part of
Speaker 2: the twenty percent who kept the cupcake for yourself in
Speaker 2: a kindness study.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they tell them that, like, your mouth is full
Speaker 1: of cupcake, and they revealed that to you, and you're like.
Speaker 2: What, Yeah, it's just going to spit it back into
Speaker 2: the little wrapper and put it back and then go
Speaker 2: give it to a stranger.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's when they reveal the milk that you
Speaker 1: don't get.
Speaker 2: So the eighty percent of people who gave their cupcake away,
Speaker 2: they asked them, how do you think how like how
Speaker 2: much of an impact do you think this gesture is
Speaker 2: going to have? And this is a really important thing
Speaker 2: that they turned up that the people who received the
Speaker 2: cupcake rated their happiness is higher than the person who
Speaker 2: gave them the cupcake expected it to be, like a
Speaker 2: lot higher. And that's kind of a human flaw. Like
Speaker 2: we're we have genetic programming to be kind, we also
Speaker 2: have genetic programming to second guess ourselves and be self
Speaker 2: conscious and that prevents us from doing acts of kindness
Speaker 2: in a lot of ways. And even when we do
Speaker 2: acts of kindness, we underestimate their effect. But the other
Speaker 2: part of that cupcake study that I found interesting is
Speaker 2: that the people who got the cupcake basically said it
Speaker 2: was the surprise that made it such a great happy
Speaker 2: experience for them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like the people who got the cupcake, the twenty
Speaker 1: percent who ate it, mm hmm. They rated their happiness,
Speaker 1: and I'm sure they're fairly happy, but not nearly as
Speaker 1: happy at the people that were surprised by a stranger
Speaker 1: right giving him them a cupcake.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I feel like we fairly well established that
Speaker 2: being kind is a good thing and that it exists. Yeah,
Speaker 2: almost almost. What about your family, though, because think about this, Yeah,
Speaker 2: giving a cupcakes to a stranger who you're never going
Speaker 2: to see again, there's nothing but pretty much an upside
Speaker 2: to that. It's all upside totally. But if you gave
Speaker 2: your cupcake away to a family member, you're going to
Speaker 2: see that family member later that day after they had
Speaker 2: a rough day at the office, and they're probably not
Speaker 2: feeling much gratitude towards you for the cupcake you gave
Speaker 2: them earlier in the day, even though you're still feeling
Speaker 2: good about yourself for having given them your cupcake. And
Speaker 2: therein lies the big rub with acts of kindness in
Speaker 2: what are known as strong tie relationships like your family.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it seems in the case of family and
Speaker 1: I would imagine this might go for like very close
Speaker 1: friend groups as well, but I'm just speculating. But in
Speaker 1: this study in twenty seventeen, they showed a very strong
Speaker 1: correlation in the happiness level, not being dictated by, but
Speaker 1: being influenced by whether or not these acts of kindness
Speaker 1: were noticed and acknowledged. Sure, so, they got people that newlyweds,
Speaker 1: people had just gotten married, and they said, spend a
Speaker 1: couple of weeks recording instances instance instance oh Man times
Speaker 1: in which one spouse would help out their partner put
Speaker 1: aside their own like if you're in the middle doing something,
Speaker 1: you would stop with a small act of kindness that
Speaker 1: your partner needs in that moment. And then also while
Speaker 1: you're doing this, record your emotional state. And they found
Speaker 1: that acts of kindness that had the most impacts on
Speaker 1: both the giver and the receiver was when they were
Speaker 1: noticed and acknowledged. And also found unsurprisingly that when there
Speaker 1: maybe surprisingly yeah for sure, when the receiver did not
Speaker 1: consciously notice that it still resulted in improved moods for
Speaker 1: both especially the giver.
Speaker 2: Sure, but they were like, these people are in the
Speaker 2: honeymoon phase of their relationship. Exactly if we did the
Speaker 2: same experiment ten years down the road, would that second
Speaker 2: part still hold up? And there's a group. There's a
Speaker 2: pair of researchers. There are a couple, John and Julie Gotman,
Speaker 2: and they are incredibly famous, incredibly well researched and well
Speaker 2: read and well cited, like couples researchers like they're the
Speaker 2: real deal, legit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a marriage therapist, yes, exactly.
Speaker 2: They actually are the ones who teach the marriage therapists
Speaker 2: who go teach other marriage therapists, like they're doing like
Speaker 2: really great firsthand research. And one of the things they
Speaker 2: found over the course of the career is that acts
Speaker 2: of kindness, even incredibly small acts of kindness, they can
Speaker 2: take the the form of a huh, when your spouse
Speaker 2: is telling you about something you couldn't care less about
Speaker 2: and you're actually really busy, just that counts as an
Speaker 2: act of kindness. And that the couples who give one
Speaker 2: another more active kindness than not. I think they came
Speaker 2: up with some ratio of like four positive interactions to
Speaker 2: one negative interaction is like the key to success. That
Speaker 2: those couples who did more kind things to one another
Speaker 2: had you know, much more successful and lasting marriages and
Speaker 2: that again, those acts can be very very small and
Speaker 2: they still have a big impact.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because what they're talking about and this is something
Speaker 1: I've seen in my own marriage at like Emily and
Speaker 1: I've been together for over twenty years now, like all
Speaker 1: in and once you get into the multiple decade span,
Speaker 1: you find and you would be wise to learn how
Speaker 1: to do this more, but you find that attention is
Speaker 1: one of the biggest parts of being happily married. Sure,
Speaker 1: and that go you know, that jibes with what you
Speaker 1: were talking about there with the study or that you know,
Speaker 1: the gotman stuff with like you know, I think when
Speaker 1: you've been with someone for a long time, you find
Speaker 1: yourself in your routines and like, oh, I'm reading this thing.
Speaker 1: And but like Emily will come home with a story
Speaker 1: about something that just happened, and like the spouse's wise
Speaker 1: who will stop what they're doing just for a moment
Speaker 1: and pay attention to them in a real way and
Speaker 1: do more than a huh like, oh wow, that's really
Speaker 1: cool that that happened to you today, and chances are
Speaker 1: you can probably get back to what you're doing. The
Speaker 1: unwise person does not, or they put out that they
Speaker 1: have to stop what they're doing, or that their attention
Speaker 1: is diverted, and that, my friend, is not a recipe
Speaker 1: for success. And I'm having to continually sort of in
Speaker 1: a like train myself still because I think certain people
Speaker 1: have deficits when it comes to stuff like that. And
Speaker 1: also just there's so much stuff now when you know
Speaker 1: it was a lot easier before there were smartphones and
Speaker 1: the internet and like constant other things that are distracting you.
Speaker 1: But you were wise to sort of try and be
Speaker 1: aware of those distractions to pay attention to your family
Speaker 1: and your spouse.
Speaker 2: So the way that the Gotments put it is that
Speaker 2: when your spouse or your friend or whoever is meaningful
Speaker 2: to you brings up something and saying something that is
Speaker 2: asking for your attention, they're making a bid for attention,
Speaker 2: and you have a choice. Like you said, you can
Speaker 2: pay attention to them, that's what they call turning toward
Speaker 2: You can snap at them for always bothering you when
Speaker 2: you're trying to read, or you can ignore them, which
Speaker 2: is not as bad as snapping at them all the time.
Speaker 2: But when those ignoring instances add up, it can have
Speaker 2: a really harmful impact on the relationship. So I guess
Speaker 2: the upshot of this is that the gotments prove that
Speaker 2: a successful relationship is exhausting, right, and you never.
Speaker 1: Get to read the stuff you want to read on
Speaker 1: your phone? Am I right?
Speaker 2: Guys, you're always bothering me.
Speaker 1: I guess we should talk a little bit here towards
Speaker 1: the end about gratitude and guilt, because acts of kindness,
Speaker 1: many times will spring from guilt. And here's the thing
Speaker 1: with guilt, Like being consumed by guilt is no good
Speaker 1: for anybody, But a little bit of guilt every now
Speaker 1: and then can lead to more generosity. And the Catholics,
Speaker 1: I feel like it's almost more of a It's not like, oh,
Speaker 1: I feel so guilty so I have to do this.
Speaker 1: It's just like, boy, I feel a little guilty, so
Speaker 1: I'm just a little more aware and on point and
Speaker 1: trying to do the right thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, especially if you know you've hurt someone's feelings and
Speaker 2: that's what you're feeling guilty about, that's going to turn
Speaker 2: your kindness into hyperdrive. But researchers have found that your
Speaker 2: your kindness is being laser focused on that person. You're
Speaker 2: marshaling all of your kindness resources and you're focusing on
Speaker 2: that poor person who probably doesn't even want to talk
Speaker 2: to you right now, but you're like, I gotta be
Speaker 2: kind to you because I feel so guilty. And what
Speaker 2: they found is that actually that kind that level of
Speaker 2: kindness excludes other people. You're walking past other chances to
Speaker 2: be kind to other people who need acts of kindness
Speaker 2: because you're so focused on this person. So that guilty
Speaker 2: sense that can bring you to acts of kindness can
Speaker 2: very easily become overraw and overblown, and nobody.
Speaker 1: Wins, right. And they've also found that ignoring like that
Speaker 1: could cause you to ignore did you already say that
Speaker 1: ignore other people?
Speaker 2: Pretty much? Yeah, you're you're you're you're not paying attention
Speaker 2: to other people's needs and just focusing on the person
Speaker 2: who's mattitude because you feel guilty.
Speaker 1: The gratitude piece I don't fully understand in this context,
Speaker 1: because they have found in experiment it's a gratitude does
Speaker 1: seem to encourage generosity when even when it costs you something.
Speaker 2: Yeah, normally, like people are in a good mood, or
Speaker 2: if you're in a good mood, you will probably do
Speaker 2: like acts of kindness. Holding a door for somebody doesn't
Speaker 2: cost you a thing, it's an act of kindness. People
Speaker 2: consider that a kind gesture. But if you feel gratitude
Speaker 2: because somebody else did something nicier, or you're just happy
Speaker 2: to be alive, you feel that sense of gratitude, you're
Speaker 2: actually more likely to give somebody your only cupcake like something.
Speaker 1: That's okay, all right, yeah, that makes sense, okay.
Speaker 2: And then the other thing about it, though, is that
Speaker 2: it doesn't even have to be gratitude toward the person
Speaker 2: who gave you that cupcake, or you don't have to
Speaker 2: do something back to them. You can actually take that
Speaker 2: gratitude and give it to a third party, which is
Speaker 2: pretty cool, like that whole pay it forward thing. But
Speaker 2: what another study found, I think back in two thousand
Speaker 2: and six, they found that that third that paying it
Speaker 2: forward thing is unconscious and that when they needed it out, hey,
Speaker 2: you did a really nice thing for this other person,
Speaker 2: the third party, because the first party did something nice
Speaker 2: to you the second party, if that makes sense in
Speaker 2: a super legal jargon way right, And when they told
Speaker 2: them that, that sense of gratitude just kind of vanished,
Speaker 2: like when it became conscious, it went away, but unconsciously,
Speaker 2: they were more prone to help other people commit acts
Speaker 2: of kindness for other people because they were feeling gratitude
Speaker 2: that somebody else did something nice for them.
Speaker 1: Have you ever seen we talked a little bit about
Speaker 1: I think you should leave the Sketch Show from Tim Robinson.
Speaker 1: Did you ever watch any of it?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I've watched it all.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, it always makes me think the pay it
Speaker 1: forward thing. Maybe I don't know. They're all great, but
Speaker 1: one of his best, my favorite sketches ever of his
Speaker 1: is the drive through when of buying paying for someone's
Speaker 1: drive through behind you and then he speeds around and
Speaker 1: then you know, fifty nine burgers, fifield milkshakes, one hundred
Speaker 1: pe fifty coffees. Yeah so funny. Yeah, yeah, oh boy,
Speaker 1: I love that guy. What else, Chuck, Well, we can
Speaker 1: wrap it up with a little bit on compassion fatigue.
Speaker 1: Doing kindnesses is great, but they have found that if
Speaker 1: you are someone who works in an industry where you
Speaker 1: have to have a lot of compassion, if you're a
Speaker 1: hospice nurse, if you are a single parent and you
Speaker 1: have a child with high needs, if you work at
Speaker 1: a shelter for unhoused people and you're just constantly having
Speaker 1: to give of yourself every day that you know, you
Speaker 1: can exhaust yourself of that, and it can be very
Speaker 1: difficult to work those hours of being nothing but empathetic
Speaker 1: all day long and doing kindnesses all day long. And
Speaker 1: that's compassion fatigue. You can have mood swings, you can
Speaker 1: be irritable, you can be anxious and depressed, and like,
Speaker 1: bad things can happen. So that's like why you need
Speaker 1: to take care of yourself, Like self care is so
Speaker 1: important when you have a situation like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can also lose your general like basic drive
Speaker 2: for compassion. Like you could start being like I don't
Speaker 2: care about any of these people that I'm treating in
Speaker 2: the er anymore.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so burned out. That's tough stuff.
Speaker 2: Yes, Fortunately that's pretty limited to certain occupations or situations
Speaker 2: like people taking care of a loved one at home
Speaker 2: twenty four to seven basically. And yeah, there's a lot
Speaker 2: of resources. If you are thinking that you might have
Speaker 2: compassion fatigue, you should just start reading about it on
Speaker 2: the web and there's a lot of really good solutions
Speaker 2: to that that can help.
Speaker 1: Yeah, take it easy on yourself because it's painful to
Speaker 1: admit sometimes that stuff is very hard and that you
Speaker 1: feel resentment and like it's human like let yourself up. Sure. Nice, Nice,
Speaker 1: that's what I say.
Speaker 2: And there's one last thing about kindness that I thought
Speaker 2: was really great, Like it can be hard to be mindful,
Speaker 2: it can be hard to cultivate attitude. Like those aren't
Speaker 2: just things that just snap into into mind like when
Speaker 2: you want them to write. The great thing about kindness
Speaker 2: is it's an action. So you can just do it,
Speaker 2: like you don't have to Like, it's not something you
Speaker 2: have to cultivate or work on or a mindset you
Speaker 2: have to be in.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can just do it.
Speaker 2: And again, as we've shown as study after study after
Speaker 2: study after study has shown it's beneficial to you and
Speaker 2: the receiver and it keeps society going, so said Darwin,
Speaker 2: So do it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, do a little experiment if you if you find
Speaker 1: you're having a very blue period, try holding open that door,
Speaker 1: do a kindness or two and see what that does
Speaker 1: for you. And just just chart it and see what happens.
Speaker 2: Very nice. Well, since Chuck said chart it, everybody, that
Speaker 2: means it's time for a listener mail.
Speaker 1: Uh, I'm gonna call this sportsy. I thought this was interesting. Okay,
Speaker 1: this was in regards to our bad business moves, bad
Speaker 1: business decisions. Sure, and this was a good one. And
Speaker 1: as an NBA fan, I can't believe I didn't know this.
Speaker 1: And you're an NBA fan too, Yes, you'll appreciate this. Hey, guys,
Speaker 1: was late to the show, discovered you during the pandemic,
Speaker 1: and was happy to have your voices in my ears
Speaker 1: through those long days on the worst ish business deals.
Speaker 1: I thought i'd share one of my favorites. When the
Speaker 1: ABA merged with the NBA back in the seventies, some
Speaker 1: teams became NBA franchises, like the Nets and Indiana and
Speaker 1: San Antonio and Denver, the Nuggets. The rest were bought
Speaker 1: out by the NBA. Like you know, hey, I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: Kentucky Colonels will give you three million dollars to stop
Speaker 1: being an ABA team.
Speaker 2: You know you're bad if somebody pays you three million
Speaker 2: dollars to stop playing.
Speaker 1: The owners of the Saint Louis, well, they just had
Speaker 1: to make them go way, you know. The owners of
Speaker 1: the Saint Louis Spirit, the Silna Brothers, negotiated a smaller
Speaker 1: deal two point two million, which included a share of
Speaker 1: television rights in Perpo two oh up through twenty thirteen.
Speaker 1: This earned the silma's about three hundred million dollars for
Speaker 1: not operating an NBA team from the seventies. In twenty fourteen,
Speaker 1: the NBA finally bought themselves out of that clause by
Speaker 1: an agreement of a lump sum five hundred million dollar payment.
Speaker 1: What so, the silma's total pocket was eight hundred million
Speaker 1: dollars from the NBA. To not have an NBA team
Speaker 1: may not be the worst business deal of all time,
Speaker 1: may have been the worst in pro sports worst I
Speaker 1: guess for the NBA. Sure, that's amazing. I'd never heard that.
Speaker 1: So that is from Steve Sonon in Seattle. Sorry about
Speaker 1: the super Sonics Washington.
Speaker 2: Thanks Steve. That was a great That was a great one.
Speaker 2: I had not heard anything about that, and.
Speaker 1: It's kind of crazy to hear some It's amazing.
Speaker 2: Some people in Kentucky making eight hundred million dollars. Northern
Speaker 2: Kentucky probably too. Yeah, if you want to get in
Speaker 2: touch with this, like Steve did, you can send us
Speaker 2: an email. Send it off to Stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio
Speaker 2: dot com.
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For
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