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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Heayan, welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and Chuck's here

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Speaker 2: and Jerry's here and this is Stuff you should Know

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Speaker 2: and it's a podcast and the three of us are

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Speaker 2: part of it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is an article on the science of kindness,

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Speaker 1: which somehow put me in a bad mood. I don't

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Speaker 1: know what that says about me. I don't know why.

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Speaker 2: I don't know why either. It's very odd, but I

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Speaker 2: kind of know what you're talking about. If we're like,

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Speaker 2: the topic overall that we're going to talk about, I

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Speaker 2: think is going to bring joy to people. But they'll

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Speaker 2: get angry along the way. But hopefully when by the

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Speaker 2: time we're done, those who are still listening will be like,

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Speaker 2: all right, I'm feeling good again.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's talk about it, and let's start with animals,

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Speaker 1: because in fact, we can direct people too. We did

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Speaker 1: a great episode I think on animal altruism.

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Speaker 2: Is that what it was called, Yeah, biological altruism something

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Speaker 2: like that, where we talked about this sort of leading

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Speaker 2: fact as we lead into humans and kindness, the fact

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Speaker 2: that you know, animals all throughout.

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Speaker 1: The animal world display acts of kindness, and many times

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Speaker 1: they are altruistic in that they're not looking for anything

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Speaker 1: other than to help out their bird meat or monkey

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Speaker 1: meat or ant meat.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you short on last minute gift ideas, go look

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Speaker 2: in on what the macaques are given each other kindness.

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Speaker 2: So it's in animals, we know that, we have evidence

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Speaker 2: of it. Yeah, it's also in humans. We have pretty

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Speaker 2: good evidence of that too, that kindness is a thing.

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Speaker 2: But it definitely seems the fact that it's in animals

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Speaker 2: as well suggests that it's in us on some genetic level.

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Speaker 2: It's not just society being like be kind rewind, you know,

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Speaker 2: like like there's an actual imperative, a biological imperative for it.

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Speaker 2: And what's odd about is that most people would think

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Speaker 2: that flies in the face of survival of the fittest. Basically,

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Speaker 2: Darwin's whole jam that you know, looking out for number

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Speaker 2: one is kind of it might not be the antithesis

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Speaker 2: of kindness, but it certainly doesn't go hand in hand.

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Speaker 2: And yet when you dig into Darwin you're like, oh,

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Speaker 2: he was actually big time into kindness.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he talked, He wrote a lot of stuff about

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Speaker 1: communities cooperating and not just like hey, it's better if

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Speaker 1: you cooperate and to go kill that wooly mammoth. But

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Speaker 1: but like compassion and empathy are are are markers of

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Speaker 1: a healthy community and a community that will survive in

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Speaker 1: a fitter way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Like if Tuktok pushed jib Job out of the

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Speaker 2: way right as he was about to throw a spear

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Speaker 2: into the wooly mammoth, JibJab took took, took the shot

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Speaker 2: and took the mammoth down and got all the praise.

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Speaker 2: He's got hurt feelings between him and jib Job, right.

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Speaker 1: He's got to go to Jim introducing a new character.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's happening before your very.

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Speaker 1: Eyes, while it's exciting in you're sixteen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so like in those communities and communities now, like

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Speaker 2: the thing that just kind of keeps things not just

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Speaker 2: going the you can go as a society in a

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Speaker 2: dystopian manner, but it's not a good society. It's not thriving.

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Speaker 2: I think the thing that makes it thrive, and then

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Speaker 2: a thriving society is much more likely to survive and

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Speaker 2: reproduce because everybody wants it to because they're having a

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Speaker 2: great time. Are things like kindness it's one of those

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Speaker 2: lubricators that helps us society go from surviving to thriving.

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Speaker 1: I agree. And it's also something that you know you see, well,

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Speaker 1: hopefully you see firsthand when you have a kid. If

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Speaker 1: you don't, that doesn't mean that you know your child

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Speaker 1: is broken, because there are all kinds of reasons that

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Speaker 1: a kid may not just sort of be innately kind.

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Speaker 1: They might not like you, maybe you're the problem, dad,

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Speaker 1: But the study after study has shown that men children

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Speaker 1: are sort of innately kind to other people. And that,

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Speaker 1: of course, this is just me editorializing the second part,

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Speaker 1: and it is later as you grow up and be

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Speaker 1: a cynical adult, is when those kindnesses go away. But

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Speaker 1: you see examples all the time when you have a kid,

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Speaker 1: of your kid and other children and their friends and

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Speaker 1: classmates being kind to one another, and it's it is

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Speaker 1: truly heartwarming to see and makes you think, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: like maybe because this is what we're kind of talking about,

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Speaker 1: like are we innately good people like as humans? And

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Speaker 1: those examples kind of indicate that, yeah, we maybe are

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Speaker 1: good humans to begin with, like, and we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about a lot of studies and experiments in this episode,

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Speaker 1: but This one was one where they had a kid

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Speaker 1: and they had some treats like little candies or something.

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Speaker 2: They had goldfish or Teddy grams.

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Speaker 1: I was just I was trying to not name check,

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Speaker 1: but sure.

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Speaker 2: Those are money treats, man, they deserve, like we need

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Speaker 2: to lay it out there just how valuable these treats were.

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Speaker 1: And then they had these little puppet puppets. I was

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Speaker 1: gonna say puppet things, but puppets are puppets. So what

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Speaker 1: they would do was and what they're trying to get

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Speaker 1: at is like how happy did because you know, that's

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Speaker 1: sort of at the root of all all this is like,

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Speaker 1: and we'll talk later about when you receive a kindness.

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Speaker 1: Of course that makes sense that you're gonna feel great,

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Speaker 1: but does it feel good and make you happy to

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Speaker 1: do a kindness? And so they had this little puppets

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Speaker 1: and they said, all right, we're going to give these

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Speaker 1: puppets a goldfish sometimes and we're going to see how

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Speaker 1: happy that makes you. A little kid, We're going to

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Speaker 1: give you a goldfish to give to that puppet. We're

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Speaker 1: gonna see how happy that makes you. And then we're

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Speaker 1: gonna also just give you a bunch of goldfish and

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Speaker 1: say those are yours, but maybe you should give the

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Speaker 1: puppet one of your own. And the ones where the

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Speaker 1: like the happiest kids were the ones where they are

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Speaker 1: instances at least, were the ones where the kids gay

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Speaker 1: of their own stash, of their own head stash right

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Speaker 1: to these puppets.

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Speaker 2: Like they were happy seeing the puppet get a treat, sure,

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Speaker 2: but they were happier to give that puppet a treat

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Speaker 2: of its own, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And they weren't necessarily doing that so they would

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Speaker 1: look good for the study.

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Speaker 2: It seems exactly these were toddlers. I think they were

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Speaker 2: two or less two or younger. There's another study that

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Speaker 2: kind of found something similar that paid attention to little

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Speaker 2: kids and how they responded to a grown up needing help,

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Speaker 2: and they showed that kids definitely do enter distress might

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Speaker 2: be kind of a harsh word for it, but there's

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Speaker 2: a concern state that's much better. They are concerned. And

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Speaker 2: apparently you can track that by your pupils dilating. And

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Speaker 2: this is the Max Planck Institute, so they're pretty legit,

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Speaker 2: but they were tracking kids pupils dilating. So an adult

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Speaker 2: would drop something and have trouble picking it up and

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Speaker 2: the kids pupils would dilate, so they were concerned. The

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Speaker 2: kids became happiest or became less concerned or unconcerned when

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Speaker 2: they were able to help, But then second to that,

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Speaker 2: they were also unconcerned. They stopped feeling concerned after they

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Speaker 2: saw somebody else help the grown up. So it's not

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Speaker 2: like you were saying, it's not just about getting credit.

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Speaker 2: It's not just about thinking you're making adults happy. Like

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Speaker 2: these kids were genuinely relieved to see somebody getting help

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Speaker 2: even when they couldn't help them, And that helps underscore

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Speaker 2: the idea that yeah, or were biologically kind in our genes.

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Speaker 1: Did the people who organize the study account did they

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Speaker 1: make sure they just accounted for the dilation of pupils

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Speaker 1: by making sure testing these kids for methan fetibine us.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's that's step one a p test.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, that checks out. Then.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and the ones who they find outside of the

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Speaker 2: lab hours before sunrise digging a hole inexplicably, they pretty

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Speaker 2: much just get them out of the population right away.

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Speaker 1: So people have been trying to I guess group and

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Speaker 1: measure and come up with scales on how to measure

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Speaker 1: kindness and happiness and stuff like that for a long

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Speaker 1: long time. And one way to measure it that they've

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Speaker 1: come up with is something called the Interpersonal Reactivity Index,

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Speaker 1: which is sort of an empathy measurement, which is great.

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Speaker 1: There's another one called the Inventory of Strengths that looks

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Speaker 1: at behavior treats kindness as a behavior. But these researchers

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Speaker 1: at Huddlesfield University of Huddlesfield in the UK in twenty seventeen,

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Speaker 1: they're like, all right, let's create a scale that's going

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Speaker 1: to measure like different aspects of being kind and see

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Speaker 1: if we can group them. And they did. They had

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Speaker 1: a forty item question in airon ended up clustering into

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Speaker 1: three groups, the first one being benign tolerance, which it's

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Speaker 1: like an everyday kindness, like hey you got groceries, why

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Speaker 1: don't you take my seat on the subway? That kind

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Speaker 1: of thing. Yeah, it's a kindness, Yeah, it's an everyday

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Speaker 1: sort of kindness. Empathetic responsivity responsivity yeah yeah, is the

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Speaker 1: next one, and that is a more emotional and then

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Speaker 1: much more personal and much more specific to a person.

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Speaker 2: Right, like this is somebody you have what they consider

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Speaker 2: strong ties to like a close friend or a family

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Speaker 2: member or something like that. So you're doing something kind

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Speaker 2: to them maybe when they need help, responding to them empathetically.

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Speaker 1: Which is great, really really well said yeah. And then

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Speaker 1: the last one is principal proaction, and this is altruism

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Speaker 1: but a little less emotional, like, you know, go look

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Speaker 1: at my record books. I give a lot of money

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Speaker 1: to charity.

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Speaker 2: Sure. So what they found though, so all of the

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Speaker 2: forty questions on the inventory, those they all basically clustered

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Speaker 2: into those three umbrellas. But they found three different things

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Speaker 2: that were common to all three of the little islands

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Speaker 2: of kindness, and those were they were, Yeah, Islands of

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Speaker 2: Kindness is a great band name, You're right, synthpop. Sure,

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Speaker 2: so they were I feel sorry for other people when

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Speaker 2: they experience problems. I like to make other people feel happy,

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Speaker 2: and people think I have a soft heart. And what

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Speaker 2: they came to, uh to kind of identify those three

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Speaker 2: things together that showed up under principal pact proaction, empathetic responsivity,

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Speaker 2: and benign tolerance. They can they said that that's your

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Speaker 2: core kindness. But that's that's the that's the basic thing

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Speaker 2: that makes people genuinely kind. Those are the things that

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Speaker 2: if you put those three things together, you have a

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Speaker 2: kind person. You can have other people doing kind things,

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Speaker 2: but they're not necessarily kind. And they even had a

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Speaker 2: measurement of unkindness. Nine of the questions were basically like

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Speaker 2: are you a jerk? Answer yes or no? They're like,

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Speaker 2: come on, answer that was question two. Be honest was

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Speaker 2: question three, and so on and so forth. And they

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Speaker 2: found that people who rated as unkind, say in one thing,

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Speaker 2: I think maybe benign tolerance, they still rated highly in

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Speaker 2: empathetic responsivity or principal pro action. So it's not like

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Speaker 2: even if you're unkind on paper that you don't do

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Speaker 2: kind things. What they were saying is genuinely kind people

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Speaker 2: check those three boxes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I think on the questionnaire it should say are

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Speaker 1: you a jerk? And the only option is no? And

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Speaker 1: then the next question is do other people think you're

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Speaker 1: a jerk? And the only option is yes. Between those

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Speaker 1: two is the truth. They also found that women scored

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Speaker 1: higher than men generally speaking, and very specifically on benign

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Speaker 1: tolerance and principal pro action. Yeah, and this was very interesting.

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Speaker 1: There was no overall difference based on the age of

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Speaker 1: the participant, but if you were over forty, then you

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Speaker 1: would score higher on Prince pro action, which kind of

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Speaker 1: makes sense if that's like giving to charity, because I mean,

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Speaker 1: I don't think I had enough money to even give

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Speaker 1: to charity when I was younger.

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Speaker 2: I think too, that's that's also a measure of like replacing,

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Speaker 2: like adding distance to your kindness, you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, it's not just like donating.

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Speaker 2: You don't show up at like the house that the

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Speaker 2: charity is, like, you know, supporting, you're just giving to

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Speaker 2: that charity.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And also you know I said that I didn't

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Speaker 1: have enough money to give to charity. That's not true you.

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna say always there are people that are

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Speaker 1: genuinely living like week to week and day to day

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Speaker 1: with their finances, so I'm not talking about that. But

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Speaker 1: in my twenties I could have, you know, not done

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Speaker 1: the one thing to give ten dollars to another thing.

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Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying. I know it was, But

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Speaker 1: you can't give time if you don't have money. It's

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Speaker 1: just another way to be cheir.

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Speaker 2: So one thing about that though, real quick before you

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Speaker 2: move on. I remember plenty of studies have turned up

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Speaker 2: that people of middle to lower socioeconomic status tend to

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Speaker 2: give more to charity than people higher up in the

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Speaker 2: socioeconomic status.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, is that more total monies are more like based

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Speaker 1: on their relative income?

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Speaker 2: I think yeah, I think relatively speaking, yeah, because I mean,

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Speaker 2: you know, like a billionaire could give a million dollars

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Speaker 2: and be like eat my dust. Right, lower socioeconomic people,

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Speaker 2: but that you know, relative to their wealth, it's not

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Speaker 2: really that big of a deal. Whereas somebody lower on

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Speaker 2: the scale or with less money, they gave a thousand dollars,

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Speaker 2: that might mean a lot more than a million dollars

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Speaker 2: to a billionaire.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and boy, what a lesson to Let's say you're

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Speaker 1: a single parent with a few kids and you're really struggling.

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Speaker 1: What a lesson to your kids to be like, you

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Speaker 1: know what, I found a twenty dollars bill a day

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Speaker 1: and we're going to put two dollars in this eyes can.

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Speaker 1: That seems like he needs it more than we do,

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Speaker 1: even but.

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Speaker 2: We're gonna get it and change. So it sounds like

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Speaker 2: a lot because he's not paying attention, but he'll hear it.

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Speaker 1: Go get two hundred pennies. Said, should we take a break?

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, all right, let's take a break. We'll be

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Speaker 1: right back, all right. We've talked about the runners high before,

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Speaker 1: that uphooric sense that a runner can feel at a

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Speaker 1: at a certain mile on the road or in the

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Speaker 1: woods or wherever you're running. Can you get a runner

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Speaker 1: sigh on a treadmill?

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, anytime, anytime you're exerting your body running for

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Speaker 2: a while.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I didn't have. I had something to do with

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Speaker 1: the environment and fresh air and stuff like that.

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Speaker 2: It might trigger it a little faster, who knows, but yes,

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Speaker 2: you can.

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Speaker 1: Right all that to say, there's a helper's high that

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Speaker 1: they found. This is in the nineteen eighties that they

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Speaker 1: first reclued into this, and that is just what you

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Speaker 1: might think is after doing a kindness to someone, you

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Speaker 1: might feel a sense of exhilaration, you might feel a

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Speaker 1: very nice period of calm afterward. They have found, depending

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Speaker 1: on the kindness I guess in the person, that can

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Speaker 1: really get you going for a few weeks sometimes. And

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Speaker 1: this is really interesting, I thought, psychologically, are these next

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Speaker 1: couple of things is that you can get that same

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Speaker 1: high just by thinking back on that kindness you did

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Speaker 1: like a month ago.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty interesting. Heck yeah, that's interesting. But if

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Speaker 2: you stop and think about it, it's anecdotally speaking of

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Speaker 2: course that works like that, but when you see it

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Speaker 2: on paper, it's kind of astounding that you can think

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Speaker 2: about something like you said you did a month ago

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Speaker 2: and feel good about it all over again. That's pretty cool.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And we do know that there are literal physical

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Speaker 1: symptoms of kindnesses and the effect like better immune function,

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Speaker 1: your stress hormones are going to go down and stuff

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Speaker 1: like that. But it makes me wonder, if you, like,

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Speaker 1: if you can call up that kindness you did a

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Speaker 1: month ago when you're starting to feel like you're getting

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Speaker 1: a cold, would that literally help you avoid a cold? Oh?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, without a question. Okay, it's a good reason

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Speaker 2: to be kind Yeah, and have a good memory. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: there's there's another so another way you could put kindness.

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Speaker 2: It's probably not exactly interchangeable, but it's close enough. It's

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Speaker 2: pro social behavior. Yeah, because I don't think we said

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Speaker 2: something that's really important. Kindness is it's it's it's action.

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Speaker 2: It's always an action, like it's not just thinking something.

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Speaker 2: Thinking something is not kindness. You can have kind thought, sure,

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Speaker 2: but kindness is always an action and in fact, kindness

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Speaker 2: dot org, which is a nonprofit that's basically like a

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Speaker 2: that supports kindness research. They say that kindness is a

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Speaker 2: meta value which is just right out of the gate,

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Speaker 2: knocks your socks off, and that it encompasses acts of altruism, empathy, justice, respect,

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Speaker 2: and more. And that is always an action, often done

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Speaker 2: with the intention to benefit and sometimes but not always,

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Speaker 2: driven by emotion, which I mean if you get to

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Speaker 2: define kindness there, it is right there. And another way

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Speaker 2: to explain that is saying pro social behavior, you're acting

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Speaker 2: in a way that is kind, right, So people have

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Speaker 2: studied pro social behavior more than they've studied kindness, So

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Speaker 2: you can kind of take some of those pro social

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Speaker 2: behavior studies and apply them to kindness research too. And

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Speaker 2: that's exactly what a twenty twenty meta analysis did from

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Speaker 2: Hong Kong Polytechnic.

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Speaker 1: You that's right, great school, it's got to be right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was reading about it. I think it's actually

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Speaker 2: one of the best schools in the world. Yeah. See,

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Speaker 2: And they do not have a mask guy. As far

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Speaker 2: as they could tell, it's either an owl or winning

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Speaker 2: the Pooh. I couldn't make heads or tails of some

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Speaker 2: of the photos.

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Speaker 1: Let's go with me the pooh go poos. All right,

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Speaker 1: So they did a meta analysis like you're saying, in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty and found that pro social behavior that you

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Speaker 1: so aptly defined was very closely linked with something called

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna call it udae amonic well being I think so,

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Speaker 1: or either that or you demonic maybe that's a silent eye,

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Speaker 1: who knows, But that is a happiness. That is, it's

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Speaker 1: sort of happiness. Plus it's associated with more meaning and

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Speaker 1: more purpose than an ordinary happiness, like oh boy, this

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Speaker 1: ice cream tastes good.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I've seen so you have well being. I've

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Speaker 2: seen you demonic well being or happiness as well, doing

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Speaker 2: like you're doing stuff that makes you happy rather than

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Speaker 2: just feeling happy, and that in and of itself as

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Speaker 2: a component of well being that's pretty cool. So there's

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Speaker 2: also that same I think meta analysis turned up that

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Speaker 2: if you help somebody informally, you typically receive more personal benefits,

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Speaker 2: like more happiness or a sense of reward than you

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Speaker 2: do if you're formally you know, being kind, like organizing

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Speaker 2: a charity or even writing a check to charity.

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Speaker 1: That makes sense, yeah, because it's like a surprise for

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Speaker 1: you as well. If it's an opportunity to perform a kindness.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, I don't only say a kindness

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Speaker 1: because of the gentleman from Winnebago Man, the Great Great documentary.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember that, but I don't remember him saying

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Speaker 2: a kindness.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he said all the time, do me a kindness,

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Speaker 1: and you know, yeah, get me a coffee.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: But it kind of fits though, because a kindness is

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Speaker 1: an act. So it's like it turns it into an

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Speaker 1: action almost by making it a noun or.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, an adverb?

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Speaker 1: Is that an adverb?

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: No, it's not an advert.

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Speaker 2: I'm about as good at English as I am at math.

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Speaker 1: No that's not true. Oh thanks, you're much gooder at English.

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Speaker 1: So oh, I don't even know where I was going

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Speaker 1: with this, because all I can think about is Winnibigo Man.

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Speaker 2: You were talking about, Oh.

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Speaker 1: The surprise of a kindness that presents itself, that you

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Speaker 1: can like, all of a sudden, you're at the grocery

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Speaker 1: store and there's an opportunity for you to perform a kindness.

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Speaker 1: That I get that that might mean more to you

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Speaker 1: than on a happiness level than like organizing a charity

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Speaker 1: because organizing a volunteer day or something is a lot

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Speaker 1: of work, and it can be a pain, and there

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Speaker 1: can be frustrations, and even though the end result is

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Speaker 1: you've done something well, at the end of that day,

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Speaker 1: you probably sit in your chair and you're like, oh man,

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Speaker 1: that was a lot. But when you just do a

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Speaker 1: small kindness, it's a surprise for you, and so of

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Speaker 1: course you're going to be like, that was the best

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Speaker 1: thing ever. I was just the best dude, and it

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Speaker 1: only took me thirty seconds.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And what's neat is there's other research, so we'll

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Speaker 2: talk about down the line that basically finds that surprise

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Speaker 2: is an element of the happiness that can come out

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Speaker 2: of acts of kindness.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, I think there's definitely something to that.

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Speaker 1: Chuck, Yeah, and the best way to scare people.

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Speaker 2: So there's another study. I've got another study at my sleeve.

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Speaker 2: You want to hear about it.

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Speaker 1: Let's hear it.

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Speaker 2: They were trying to say, Okay, like, great job coming

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Speaker 2: up with a kindness skill. But what are we really

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Speaker 2: measuring here? Are we measuring actual acts of kindness making

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Speaker 2: people happy? Or is there some other thing that we

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Speaker 2: don't realize We're measuring. So they actually very cleverly kind

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Speaker 2: of broke it out into a few components and they

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Speaker 2: had people either do something kind for others, an active kindness,

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Speaker 2: something kind for themselves still an active kindness, but not

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Speaker 2: for anybody else, totally extroverted behavior that's not kindness, So

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Speaker 2: maybe striking up a neutral conversation about the weather with

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Speaker 2: a stranger it is hot, right, or doing something that's

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Speaker 2: open minded but it's not social and it's not kind.

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Speaker 2: And the example that Olivia gave was engaging with art,

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Speaker 2: like going to see you know, going to a museum, right, Okay,

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Speaker 2: all of those things can make you happy. And the

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Speaker 2: University of California psychologists wanted to see if we were

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Speaker 2: accidentally measuring that, and what they found is that the

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Speaker 2: people who did acts of kindness for other people were

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Speaker 2: far and away happier than the other three groups.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, pretty interesting. And in that little bit you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: one of the things that covered for was doing a

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Speaker 1: kindness for yourself. There was a twenty nineteen paper from

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Speaker 1: Oxford University where they found that acts of kindness to

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Speaker 1: other people and acts of kindness to yourself had about

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Speaker 1: the same positive effect on your happiness and I didn't

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Speaker 1: read that as like, oh, well, that just shoots holes

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Speaker 1: in the previous theory. I saw it as like, well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: your brain is still receiving those triggers that like you're

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Speaker 1: doing a kindness and you're a person too, and you

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Speaker 1: need kindness is to be done for you, and if

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Speaker 1: you're the one doing it, then great. Exactly, you know

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Speaker 1: you should be kind to yourself.

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Speaker 2: Be kind to yourself.

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Speaker 1: That's right, and rewind So I.

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Speaker 2: Saw something explained like the feeling that you get from

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Speaker 2: the helpers high, explained by pointing out that acts of

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Speaker 2: kindness are actually an exertion for us, just like exercises

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Speaker 2: an exertion. Anything beyond what we need to do to

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Speaker 2: survive that day is technically an exertion, and our bodies

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Speaker 2: created this reward system to overcome the sense of exertion

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Speaker 2: or pain or sore muscles or loss of giving up

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Speaker 2: your goldfish treat to a puppet and flooding us with

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Speaker 2: chemicals that make us feel better. So that totally explains

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Speaker 2: the biochemical basis for that Helper's high, for the sense

436
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:04,280
Speaker 2: of being rewarded by doing an act of kindness or

437
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 2: just a kindness, and that it's kind of apparently centrally

438
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,239
Speaker 2: located in the vegas nerve, which, if you'll remember from

439
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 2: More Organism episode, is really responsible for that. It's a

440
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:19,480
Speaker 2: huge part of the parasympathetic autonomic nervous system, which is

441
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:25,400
Speaker 2: the opposite of flight. It's like chill and chill instead

442
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 2: of fight or flight.

443
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, like getting your breathing under control and your tummy

444
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 1: feeling good and your heart rate a little lower, stuff

445
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,640
Speaker 1: like that. We talked about it quite a few times.

446
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 1: I feel like over the years, it's only in mammals.

447
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 1: It's very unique to mammals. And because it is a

448
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:48,159
Speaker 1: part of that autonomic nervous system, it's connected to like

449
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 1: basically all the organs right, Like, it's affecting everything inside

450
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 1: your body, which is great, and it's you know, what's

451
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 1: going to give you that warm feeling when it's active,

452
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 1: when you've done a kindness to someone, that's where that

453
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 1: warm feeling is coming from, basically.

454
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, and specifically it's oxytocin. They've linked that to kindness

455
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 2: and that helper's high and that is it's frequently called

456
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:17,439
Speaker 2: the love hormone. It's it is around from every event,

457
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 2: like a mother holding a newborn baby. Skin to skin

458
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 2: for the first time. That's a huge oxytocin release. To

459
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 2: doing an active kindness for somebody, is that warm feeling

460
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 2: in your chest, that feeling that where like you just

461
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 2: suddenly are like I could if I really thought about it,

462
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:37,919
Speaker 2: I could cry right now, Like you just feel so

463
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 2: good and just overwhelmed with positive feelings. That's oxytocin, and

464
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,199
Speaker 2: acts of kindness have been shown to release oxytocin. That

465
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 2: seems to be part of the basis of that helper's high. So, however,

466
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,439
Speaker 2: you can get oxytocin, get it, that's my motto.

467
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally an interesting thing to jumping back a sec

468
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 1: to that twenty nineteen Oxford paper that talked about doing

469
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 1: a kindness on oneself. I found this particularly interesting. Okay,

470
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 1: just witnessing an act of kindness can also have a

471
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:15,440
Speaker 1: similar effect on you, which is amazing, And that makes

472
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,679
Speaker 1: me wonder if our old friend's mirror neurons are not

473
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 1: involved somehow.

474
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,879
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I would think so, because empathy has to

475
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 2: be involved, Like you have to feel something towards somebody

476
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 2: who you're helping, or else you just wouldn't even think

477
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,200
Speaker 2: to help them. You'd probably just be like huh huh

478
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,479
Speaker 2: you know m hm. So yeah, if empathy is involved

479
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 2: in the mirror, neurons have to be involved. It's just

480
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:38,359
Speaker 2: the way it goes.

481
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:43,960
Speaker 1: Friend, But we've I mean, who hasn't watched the one

482
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 1: of those internet videos on Instagram or wherever where you

483
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,920
Speaker 1: see a real kindness and you know they got that

484
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 1: piano music plan and all of a sudden you're tearing

485
00:26:56,119 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 1: up like your body is firing all those same neurons, apparently,

486
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 1: according to Oxford, as if you had done that kindness yourself, right,

487
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 1: like feel good neurons.

488
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,720
Speaker 2: You got that rascal for that veteran, like you did that.

489
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 2: For all intents and purposes, none of us have to

490
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,120
Speaker 2: do anything. As long as there's some people out there

491
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 2: doing kindnesses and posting those videos on the internet, the

492
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 2: rest of us can just get the benefits from it

493
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 2: without having a lift a finger.

494
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you go into your therapist and they're they're like,

495
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 1: I know you have a problem with uh empathy and kindnesses?

496
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 1: Did you do any this week? And you're like, yeah,

497
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 1: I watch like three videos.

498
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 2: Exactly make you feel great. Yeah, So should we take

499
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:37,719
Speaker 2: another break and then come back and talk about how

500
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:42,400
Speaker 2: it helps people who kindness is given to. Sure, Okay,

501
00:27:42,440 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 2: we're going to do that. So I think it's beyond

502
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 2: ridiculous to say that a person who is the beneficiary

503
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,880
Speaker 2: of an act of kindness gets something out of it too.

504
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 2: They literally get something out of it in a lot

505
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 2: of times, like if it's a veteran and the rascal

506
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 2: that a bunch of people donated to buy him, it

507
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,880
Speaker 2: can be a goldfish treat, like they benefit in that sense,

508
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 2: but they also benefit emotionally as well. And what they

509
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 2: found in a bunch of different studies is kind of

510
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 2: what we were talking about before that other elements like surprise,

511
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 2: just the gesture, the thought, Like they say it's the

512
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 2: thought that counts well. Some kind of studies have basically

513
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 2: turned that up that if you don't just think about it,

514
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 2: but you actually follow through, the people are more moved

515
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 2: by the thought, by the gesture than they are by

516
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 2: the goldfish treat or the rascal. Although I mean, if

517
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 2: you give somebody a rascal, they're probably going to be

518
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 2: pretty happy.

519
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 1: What's a rascal?

520
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 2: Oh, it's a little mobilized get around kart that you

521
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 2: see people riding. Oh Okayan stage or immobility.

522
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 1: I got you all right, I didn't know those were

523
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 1: called rascals.

524
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 2: That is the original trading it for one of the brands,

525
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 2: and it's just it's become kind of a proprietary eponym, Okay,

526
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 2: at least in my house.

527
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 1: Yeah. So one of the experiments they did to test

528
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 1: this was in nineteen ninety five. They looked at unhoused

529
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: folks who went to the ER a lot for treatment.

530
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 1: And they had a controlled group who just got their

531
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 1: regular old er visit, and then they had another group

532
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 1: that had that visit plus student volunteers who would chat

533
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 1: them up, talk about stuff and life and listen to

534
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 1: them and held conversations and maybe gave them a goldfish

535
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 1: or something. And they found that the members of the

536
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 1: test group were twice as likely to rate their care

537
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 1: higher sure, which you know makes perfect sense, and that

538
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 1: and this was interesting. The number of ER visits among

539
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 1: that group dropped by a third. Yeah, which I guess

540
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 1: indicates that they're healthier.

541
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 2: I guess the researchers took it to mean that the

542
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 2: unhoused people who show up to the r over and

543
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 2: over and over again are basically showing up until they

544
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 2: feel like they're being treated like a human being and

545
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 2: that that group were satisfied that they had received good

546
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 2: care for once and they stopped coming back to try to,

547
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 2: you know, get it out of the people in the er.

548
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 1: Oh, and that is really interesting because another way to

549
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 1: think of that is like, why didn't the people who

550
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 1: got that warm care want to come back and say, like, boy,

551
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 1: that was you know, that was pretty great that goldfish.

552
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 1: I had a nice conversation with.

553
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 2: A student I totally thought the same thing.

554
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting.

555
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 2: So there's another study that involved cupcakes, and who doesn't

556
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:06,719
Speaker 2: want to talk about that.

557
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 1: It's a good one.

558
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 2: It is, it's a great one. So the researchers gave

559
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:16,959
Speaker 2: strangers or study participants a cupcake and said, here you go,

560
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 2: here's a cupcake. You can do whatever you want with it,

561
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 2: but you can also give it to a stranger if

562
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 2: you like. And apparently eighty percent of the participants gave

563
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 2: their cupcake away. Well I want to know those twenty percent.

564
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 2: I hope they didn't tell them what they were actually studying,

565
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 2: because I think you'd really have some real soul searching

566
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 2: to do after you find out that you're part of

567
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 2: the twenty percent who kept the cupcake for yourself in

568
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 2: a kindness study.

569
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, they tell them that, like, your mouth is full

570
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 1: of cupcake, and they revealed that to you, and you're like.

571
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 2: What, Yeah, it's just going to spit it back into

572
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:50,959
Speaker 2: the little wrapper and put it back and then go

573
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 2: give it to a stranger.

574
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's when they reveal the milk that you

575
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 1: don't get.

576
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 2: So the eighty percent of people who gave their cupcake away,

577
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 2: they asked them, how do you think how like how

578
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 2: much of an impact do you think this gesture is

579
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 2: going to have? And this is a really important thing

580
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 2: that they turned up that the people who received the

581
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 2: cupcake rated their happiness is higher than the person who

582
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 2: gave them the cupcake expected it to be, like a

583
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 2: lot higher. And that's kind of a human flaw. Like

584
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 2: we're we have genetic programming to be kind, we also

585
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 2: have genetic programming to second guess ourselves and be self

586
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 2: conscious and that prevents us from doing acts of kindness

587
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 2: in a lot of ways. And even when we do

588
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 2: acts of kindness, we underestimate their effect. But the other

589
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 2: part of that cupcake study that I found interesting is

590
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 2: that the people who got the cupcake basically said it

591
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 2: was the surprise that made it such a great happy

592
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 2: experience for them.

593
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like the people who got the cupcake, the twenty

594
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: percent who ate it, mm hmm. They rated their happiness,

595
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 1: and I'm sure they're fairly happy, but not nearly as

596
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 1: happy at the people that were surprised by a stranger

597
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 1: right giving him them a cupcake.

598
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I feel like we fairly well established that

599
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 2: being kind is a good thing and that it exists. Yeah,

600
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 2: almost almost. What about your family, though, because think about this, Yeah,

601
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 2: giving a cupcakes to a stranger who you're never going

602
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 2: to see again, there's nothing but pretty much an upside

603
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 2: to that. It's all upside totally. But if you gave

604
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 2: your cupcake away to a family member, you're going to

605
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 2: see that family member later that day after they had

606
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 2: a rough day at the office, and they're probably not

607
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 2: feeling much gratitude towards you for the cupcake you gave

608
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 2: them earlier in the day, even though you're still feeling

609
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 2: good about yourself for having given them your cupcake. And

610
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 2: therein lies the big rub with acts of kindness in

611
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 2: what are known as strong tie relationships like your family.

612
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it seems in the case of family and

613
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 1: I would imagine this might go for like very close

614
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 1: friend groups as well, but I'm just speculating. But in

615
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 1: this study in twenty seventeen, they showed a very strong

616
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 1: correlation in the happiness level, not being dictated by, but

617
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 1: being influenced by whether or not these acts of kindness

618
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 1: were noticed and acknowledged. Sure, so, they got people that newlyweds,

619
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 1: people had just gotten married, and they said, spend a

620
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 1: couple of weeks recording instances instance instance oh Man times

621
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:41,279
Speaker 1: in which one spouse would help out their partner put

622
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,720
Speaker 1: aside their own like if you're in the middle doing something,

623
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:46,799
Speaker 1: you would stop with a small act of kindness that

624
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,879
Speaker 1: your partner needs in that moment. And then also while

625
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 1: you're doing this, record your emotional state. And they found

626
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 1: that acts of kindness that had the most impacts on

627
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 1: both the giver and the receiver was when they were

628
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 1: noticed and acknowledged. And also found unsurprisingly that when there

629
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 1: maybe surprisingly yeah for sure, when the receiver did not

630
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 1: consciously notice that it still resulted in improved moods for

631
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:11,359
Speaker 1: both especially the giver.

632
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 2: Sure, but they were like, these people are in the

633
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,279
Speaker 2: honeymoon phase of their relationship. Exactly if we did the

634
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 2: same experiment ten years down the road, would that second

635
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:26,279
Speaker 2: part still hold up? And there's a group. There's a

636
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 2: pair of researchers. There are a couple, John and Julie Gotman,

637
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 2: and they are incredibly famous, incredibly well researched and well

638
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 2: read and well cited, like couples researchers like they're the

639
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 2: real deal, legit.

640
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, a marriage therapist, yes, exactly.

641
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 2: They actually are the ones who teach the marriage therapists

642
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 2: who go teach other marriage therapists, like they're doing like

643
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 2: really great firsthand research. And one of the things they

644
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,959
Speaker 2: found over the course of the career is that acts

645
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:59,319
Speaker 2: of kindness, even incredibly small acts of kindness, they can

646
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 2: take the the form of a huh, when your spouse

647
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 2: is telling you about something you couldn't care less about

648
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 2: and you're actually really busy, just that counts as an

649
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 2: act of kindness. And that the couples who give one

650
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:14,279
Speaker 2: another more active kindness than not. I think they came

651
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 2: up with some ratio of like four positive interactions to

652
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,399
Speaker 2: one negative interaction is like the key to success. That

653
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,320
Speaker 2: those couples who did more kind things to one another

654
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 2: had you know, much more successful and lasting marriages and

655
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 2: that again, those acts can be very very small and

656
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 2: they still have a big impact.

657
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:36,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, because what they're talking about and this is something

658
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:38,759
Speaker 1: I've seen in my own marriage at like Emily and

659
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,879
Speaker 1: I've been together for over twenty years now, like all

660
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 1: in and once you get into the multiple decade span,

661
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 1: you find and you would be wise to learn how

662
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:55,920
Speaker 1: to do this more, but you find that attention is

663
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 1: one of the biggest parts of being happily married. Sure,

664
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 1: and that go you know, that jibes with what you

665
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 1: were talking about there with the study or that you know,

666
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:08,799
Speaker 1: the gotman stuff with like you know, I think when

667
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 1: you've been with someone for a long time, you find

668
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 1: yourself in your routines and like, oh, I'm reading this thing.

669
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 1: And but like Emily will come home with a story

670
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 1: about something that just happened, and like the spouse's wise

671
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 1: who will stop what they're doing just for a moment

672
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 1: and pay attention to them in a real way and

673
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 1: do more than a huh like, oh wow, that's really

674
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 1: cool that that happened to you today, and chances are

675
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 1: you can probably get back to what you're doing. The

676
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 1: unwise person does not, or they put out that they

677
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:42,240
Speaker 1: have to stop what they're doing, or that their attention

678
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 1: is diverted, and that, my friend, is not a recipe

679
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:49,360
Speaker 1: for success. And I'm having to continually sort of in

680
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 1: a like train myself still because I think certain people

681
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 1: have deficits when it comes to stuff like that. And

682
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 1: also just there's so much stuff now when you know

683
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 1: it was a lot easier before there were smartphones and

684
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:07,839
Speaker 1: the internet and like constant other things that are distracting you.

685
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 1: But you were wise to sort of try and be

686
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:13,920
Speaker 1: aware of those distractions to pay attention to your family

687
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 1: and your spouse.

688
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 2: So the way that the Gotments put it is that

689
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 2: when your spouse or your friend or whoever is meaningful

690
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 2: to you brings up something and saying something that is

691
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 2: asking for your attention, they're making a bid for attention,

692
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 2: and you have a choice. Like you said, you can

693
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,240
Speaker 2: pay attention to them, that's what they call turning toward

694
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 2: You can snap at them for always bothering you when

695
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 2: you're trying to read, or you can ignore them, which

696
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 2: is not as bad as snapping at them all the time.

697
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 2: But when those ignoring instances add up, it can have

698
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 2: a really harmful impact on the relationship. So I guess

699
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 2: the upshot of this is that the gotments prove that

700
00:38:56,480 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 2: a successful relationship is exhausting, right, and you never.

701
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 1: Get to read the stuff you want to read on

702
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 1: your phone? Am I right?

703
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 2: Guys, you're always bothering me.

704
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 1: I guess we should talk a little bit here towards

705
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:18,920
Speaker 1: the end about gratitude and guilt, because acts of kindness,

706
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 1: many times will spring from guilt. And here's the thing

707
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:28,479
Speaker 1: with guilt, Like being consumed by guilt is no good

708
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 1: for anybody, But a little bit of guilt every now

709
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 1: and then can lead to more generosity. And the Catholics,

710
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 1: I feel like it's almost more of a It's not like, oh,

711
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 1: I feel so guilty so I have to do this.

712
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,319
Speaker 1: It's just like, boy, I feel a little guilty, so

713
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:51,839
Speaker 1: I'm just a little more aware and on point and

714
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 1: trying to do the right thing.

715
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, especially if you know you've hurt someone's feelings and

716
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:00,839
Speaker 2: that's what you're feeling guilty about, that's going to turn

717
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 2: your kindness into hyperdrive. But researchers have found that your

718
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 2: your kindness is being laser focused on that person. You're

719
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,239
Speaker 2: marshaling all of your kindness resources and you're focusing on

720
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:14,359
Speaker 2: that poor person who probably doesn't even want to talk

721
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 2: to you right now, but you're like, I gotta be

722
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:18,360
Speaker 2: kind to you because I feel so guilty. And what

723
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 2: they found is that actually that kind that level of

724
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:25,319
Speaker 2: kindness excludes other people. You're walking past other chances to

725
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,280
Speaker 2: be kind to other people who need acts of kindness

726
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 2: because you're so focused on this person. So that guilty

727
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 2: sense that can bring you to acts of kindness can

728
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 2: very easily become overraw and overblown, and nobody.

729
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:42,400
Speaker 1: Wins, right. And they've also found that ignoring like that

730
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:44,840
Speaker 1: could cause you to ignore did you already say that

731
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 1: ignore other people?

732
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 2: Pretty much? Yeah, you're you're you're you're not paying attention

733
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 2: to other people's needs and just focusing on the person

734
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:53,280
Speaker 2: who's mattitude because you feel guilty.

735
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 1: The gratitude piece I don't fully understand in this context,

736
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 1: because they have found in experiment it's a gratitude does

737
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 1: seem to encourage generosity when even when it costs you something.

738
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, normally, like people are in a good mood, or

739
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,759
Speaker 2: if you're in a good mood, you will probably do

740
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,480
Speaker 2: like acts of kindness. Holding a door for somebody doesn't

741
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:16,720
Speaker 2: cost you a thing, it's an act of kindness. People

742
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:20,360
Speaker 2: consider that a kind gesture. But if you feel gratitude

743
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 2: because somebody else did something nicier, or you're just happy

744
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:26,759
Speaker 2: to be alive, you feel that sense of gratitude, you're

745
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 2: actually more likely to give somebody your only cupcake like something.

746
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 1: That's okay, all right, yeah, that makes sense, okay.

747
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 2: And then the other thing about it, though, is that

748
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,720
Speaker 2: it doesn't even have to be gratitude toward the person

749
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 2: who gave you that cupcake, or you don't have to

750
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 2: do something back to them. You can actually take that

751
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 2: gratitude and give it to a third party, which is

752
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,359
Speaker 2: pretty cool, like that whole pay it forward thing. But

753
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 2: what another study found, I think back in two thousand

754
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 2: and six, they found that that third that paying it

755
00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:00,759
Speaker 2: forward thing is unconscious and that when they needed it out, hey,

756
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,320
Speaker 2: you did a really nice thing for this other person,

757
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,799
Speaker 2: the third party, because the first party did something nice

758
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 2: to you the second party, if that makes sense in

759
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:13,719
Speaker 2: a super legal jargon way right, And when they told

760
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 2: them that, that sense of gratitude just kind of vanished,

761
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 2: like when it became conscious, it went away, but unconsciously,

762
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:24,319
Speaker 2: they were more prone to help other people commit acts

763
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 2: of kindness for other people because they were feeling gratitude

764
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 2: that somebody else did something nice for them.

765
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:32,880
Speaker 1: Have you ever seen we talked a little bit about

766
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 1: I think you should leave the Sketch Show from Tim Robinson.

767
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 1: Did you ever watch any of it?

768
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:38,839
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I've watched it all.

769
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 1: Oh okay, it always makes me think the pay it

770
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 1: forward thing. Maybe I don't know. They're all great, but

771
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 1: one of his best, my favorite sketches ever of his

772
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:53,400
Speaker 1: is the drive through when of buying paying for someone's

773
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:57,279
Speaker 1: drive through behind you and then he speeds around and

774
00:42:57,320 --> 00:42:59,879
Speaker 1: then you know, fifty nine burgers, fifield milkshakes, one hundred

775
00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 1: pe fifty coffees. Yeah so funny. Yeah, yeah, oh boy,

776
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 1: I love that guy. What else, Chuck, Well, we can

777
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 1: wrap it up with a little bit on compassion fatigue.

778
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,719
Speaker 1: Doing kindnesses is great, but they have found that if

779
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 1: you are someone who works in an industry where you

780
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 1: have to have a lot of compassion, if you're a

781
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 1: hospice nurse, if you are a single parent and you

782
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:28,760
Speaker 1: have a child with high needs, if you work at

783
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,760
Speaker 1: a shelter for unhoused people and you're just constantly having

784
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 1: to give of yourself every day that you know, you

785
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 1: can exhaust yourself of that, and it can be very

786
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 1: difficult to work those hours of being nothing but empathetic

787
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 1: all day long and doing kindnesses all day long. And

788
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 1: that's compassion fatigue. You can have mood swings, you can

789
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 1: be irritable, you can be anxious and depressed, and like,

790
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:01,239
Speaker 1: bad things can happen. So that's like why you need

791
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 1: to take care of yourself, Like self care is so

792
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 1: important when you have a situation like that.

793
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:09,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can also lose your general like basic drive

794
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 2: for compassion. Like you could start being like I don't

795
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 2: care about any of these people that I'm treating in

796
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 2: the er anymore.

797
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, so burned out. That's tough stuff.

798
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 2: Yes, Fortunately that's pretty limited to certain occupations or situations

799
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 2: like people taking care of a loved one at home

800
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:28,879
Speaker 2: twenty four to seven basically. And yeah, there's a lot

801
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:31,719
Speaker 2: of resources. If you are thinking that you might have

802
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 2: compassion fatigue, you should just start reading about it on

803
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:36,839
Speaker 2: the web and there's a lot of really good solutions

804
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:37,880
Speaker 2: to that that can help.

805
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:42,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, take it easy on yourself because it's painful to

806
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 1: admit sometimes that stuff is very hard and that you

807
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:49,919
Speaker 1: feel resentment and like it's human like let yourself up. Sure. Nice, Nice,

808
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 1: that's what I say.

809
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 2: And there's one last thing about kindness that I thought

810
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 2: was really great, Like it can be hard to be mindful,

811
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:01,720
Speaker 2: it can be hard to cultivate attitude. Like those aren't

812
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 2: just things that just snap into into mind like when

813
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 2: you want them to write. The great thing about kindness

814
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:10,400
Speaker 2: is it's an action. So you can just do it,

815
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 2: like you don't have to Like, it's not something you

816
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 2: have to cultivate or work on or a mindset you

817
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:15,400
Speaker 2: have to be in.

818
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:17,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can just do it.

819
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:21,240
Speaker 2: And again, as we've shown as study after study after

820
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 2: study after study has shown it's beneficial to you and

821
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:28,720
Speaker 2: the receiver and it keeps society going, so said Darwin,

822
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 2: So do it.

823
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, do a little experiment if you if you find

824
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:36,840
Speaker 1: you're having a very blue period, try holding open that door,

825
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:38,359
Speaker 1: do a kindness or two and see what that does

826
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:40,280
Speaker 1: for you. And just just chart it and see what happens.

827
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 2: Very nice. Well, since Chuck said chart it, everybody, that

828
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:45,800
Speaker 2: means it's time for a listener mail.

829
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:53,760
Speaker 1: Uh, I'm gonna call this sportsy. I thought this was interesting. Okay,

830
00:45:54,719 --> 00:46:00,480
Speaker 1: this was in regards to our bad business moves, bad

831
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:03,759
Speaker 1: business decisions. Sure, and this was a good one. And

832
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 1: as an NBA fan, I can't believe I didn't know this.

833
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:09,880
Speaker 1: And you're an NBA fan too, Yes, you'll appreciate this. Hey, guys,

834
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:12,200
Speaker 1: was late to the show, discovered you during the pandemic,

835
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:13,879
Speaker 1: and was happy to have your voices in my ears

836
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:17,280
Speaker 1: through those long days on the worst ish business deals.

837
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 1: I thought i'd share one of my favorites. When the

838
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:23,960
Speaker 1: ABA merged with the NBA back in the seventies, some

839
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 1: teams became NBA franchises, like the Nets and Indiana and

840
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:32,840
Speaker 1: San Antonio and Denver, the Nuggets. The rest were bought

841
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 1: out by the NBA. Like you know, hey, I'm sorry,

842
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:40,400
Speaker 1: Kentucky Colonels will give you three million dollars to stop

843
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 1: being an ABA team.

844
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:45,040
Speaker 2: You know you're bad if somebody pays you three million

845
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 2: dollars to stop playing.

846
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 1: The owners of the Saint Louis, well, they just had

847
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 1: to make them go way, you know. The owners of

848
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 1: the Saint Louis Spirit, the Silna Brothers, negotiated a smaller

849
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 1: deal two point two million, which included a share of

850
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 1: television rights in Perpo two oh up through twenty thirteen.

851
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:05,719
Speaker 1: This earned the silma's about three hundred million dollars for

852
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 1: not operating an NBA team from the seventies. In twenty fourteen,

853
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 1: the NBA finally bought themselves out of that clause by

854
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 1: an agreement of a lump sum five hundred million dollar payment.

855
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 1: What so, the silma's total pocket was eight hundred million

856
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 1: dollars from the NBA. To not have an NBA team

857
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:29,799
Speaker 1: may not be the worst business deal of all time,

858
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 1: may have been the worst in pro sports worst I

859
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 1: guess for the NBA. Sure, that's amazing. I'd never heard that.

860
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 1: So that is from Steve Sonon in Seattle. Sorry about

861
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:41,360
Speaker 1: the super Sonics Washington.

862
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 2: Thanks Steve. That was a great That was a great one.

863
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:46,799
Speaker 2: I had not heard anything about that, and.

864
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:49,400
Speaker 1: It's kind of crazy to hear some It's amazing.

865
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 2: Some people in Kentucky making eight hundred million dollars. Northern

866
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 2: Kentucky probably too. Yeah, if you want to get in

867
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:58,360
Speaker 2: touch with this, like Steve did, you can send us

868
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:01,359
Speaker 2: an email. Send it off to Stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio

869
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 2: dot com.

870
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Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

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Speaker 1: more podcasts, Myheart radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.