Speaker 1: There are definitely times that people you know, will be like, oh,
Speaker 1: she's from Hollywood, She's from Hollywood, And I was like,
Speaker 1: I didn't live in Hollywood, but that's what they thought.
Speaker 1: And yeah, there were definitely moments I felt discriminated against.
Speaker 2: Good Evening and welcome back to Midnight Chats after quite
Speaker 2: some time off, we're back. I'm Stuart Stubbs and I'm
Speaker 2: here with Greg Cochran. Heist you. It's good to be back.
Speaker 2: It's been a minute. This is it, isn't it? We're
Speaker 2: back for quite a while here. We've got like a lot,
Speaker 2: a lot of episodes coming up every Tuesday night at midnight.
Speaker 2: So if you're already a subscriber, you're locked in. If
Speaker 2: you're not, then please I don't think they call it subscribing,
Speaker 2: and it's called follow. That's how long we've been away.
Speaker 2: They've changed, They've changed the way they talk about podcasts.
Speaker 3: They have changed the way they talk about podcasts. But yeah,
Speaker 3: we're going to be here every week bringing you some
Speaker 3: of the biggest and best guests that we've ever had
Speaker 3: on Midnight Chats. So it's so exciting to be to
Speaker 3: be back. And we've yeah, we've been recording some conversations
Speaker 3: to bring all of you listeners for the weeks and
Speaker 3: the months to come. And we're starting with a banger Stu,
Speaker 3: a conversation that you had.
Speaker 2: Yes. Tonight's guest is wise Blood and this is one
Speaker 2: of the first, one of the earliest ones I recorded
Speaker 2: for this new run. Recorded this back in November twenty
Speaker 2: twenty three. Natalie Marhring is Marring Marring Merring, Mrring. Natalie
Speaker 2: was in la where she was born and where she
Speaker 2: now lives. I was in London. This is a remote record.
Speaker 2: Some of these are going to be remote, some are
Speaker 2: going to be face to face. This is a remote one.
Speaker 2: I mean, she's got such a good voice for this.
Speaker 2: This is like the perfect podcast voice. One of the
Speaker 2: reasons why we wanted to start this new run with
Speaker 2: wise Blood. As I say, Natalie grew up in She
Speaker 2: was born in LA and then she moved to Pennsylvania.
Speaker 2: Then she bounced around to Portland and people might not
Speaker 2: know this, but she got very heavily involved in noise
Speaker 2: music and experimental dr music. Sounds kind of strange now,
Speaker 2: right when you think of what wise Blood record sounds like.
Speaker 2: It sounds like sort of the Carpenter's soundtracking The Apocalypse.
Speaker 2: But back then she was making all sorts of strange music,
Speaker 2: So we talk about We talked to talk about lots
Speaker 2: of things because her most recent albums have already been
Speaker 2: out a year, so she wasn't in like four let's
Speaker 2: sell this new record that Records called and in the
Speaker 2: Darkness Hearts Aglow. We talk a little bit about that,
Speaker 2: but we actually just talk more broadly about her life
Speaker 2: in music.
Speaker 3: And going and growing up in the same town as Pink,
Speaker 3: growing up.
Speaker 2: In the same town as Pink, Meeting lou Reid at
Speaker 2: a rally in New York, and Lou reads one of
Speaker 2: those people that tends to his name, pops up quite
Speaker 2: a lot on midnight chats. I find always has done
Speaker 2: all these, you know, one hundred and twenty episodes before
Speaker 2: this one. He pops up every now and then. People
Speaker 2: like to talk about lou Reid, and actually this is
Speaker 2: one of the very rare times he's mentioned where he
Speaker 2: was nice to somebody. Yeah, it was notoriously grumpy, bit
Speaker 2: of a grouch. So we hope you enjoyed this first
Speaker 2: episode back with Wise Blood. Give it a review. Another
Speaker 2: couple of new things that we've got. As well as
Speaker 2: this new run, we've got some new social channels which
Speaker 2: we've not had before. We're on Instagram and we're on
Speaker 2: TikTok Midnight Chats Pod. Give us a follow on there.
Speaker 2: We're going to be posting some clips and video clips
Speaker 2: from the interviews and other bits and pieces us laughing
Speaker 2: about looking very handsome. So please find us over there.
Speaker 2: That's brand new, but for now here is Wiseblud on
Speaker 2: tonight's episode of Midnight Chats. The first time I saw
Speaker 2: you was here in London. It was in twenty fifteen,
Speaker 2: and you put you were one hundred percent solo at
Speaker 2: that point. I'm pretty sure it was just you and
Speaker 2: a guitar and acoustic guitar, and you played at a
Speaker 2: place called the lock Tavern, which is a small pub
Speaker 2: Camden Is upstairs.
Speaker 1: I remember that really clearly.
Speaker 2: I'm guessing this would have been when you were touring
Speaker 2: The Innocence, right if it was twenty fifteen, Yeah, Would
Speaker 2: that have been your first sort of trip to the UK? No?
Speaker 1: Actually so, I toured in a band called Jackie O
Speaker 1: Motherfucker in two thousand and seven, which was like a weird,
Speaker 1: kind of kind of free experimental noise band from Portland, Oregon,
Speaker 1: and I would do like solo wise blood shows on
Speaker 1: certain shows, and then I kind of broke off of
Speaker 1: that tour and did like a weird solo tour. But yeah,
Speaker 1: that was, you know, so deep in the history of
Speaker 1: my musical trajectory. I was like nineteen and playing very loud,
Speaker 1: crazy noise music and then with Jackie Oh, it was
Speaker 1: kind of this very folky, improv kind of grungy situation.
Speaker 1: It was. It was a cool time in music where
Speaker 1: you could be a band like that and book a
Speaker 1: tour and there was just such a community of people
Speaker 1: interested in experimental music. There's so much support that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was, you know, taking trains and staying with with
Speaker 1: promoters and friends, and it's very different than the kind
Speaker 1: of tours I did later.
Speaker 2: Do you miss that that that way of doing it
Speaker 2: at all?
Speaker 1: I mean, not like exactly, but I do really miss
Speaker 1: the community. There is something really nice about coming to
Speaker 1: a show and knowing people are going to come.
Speaker 2: We've put on shows before for our magazine and I
Speaker 2: have hated it, and I've hated that. Yeah, that feeling
Speaker 2: of is anyone going to show up tonight?
Speaker 1: I mean I will say that I actually enjoy. I
Speaker 1: did enjoy when nobody would come, like I mean, I
Speaker 1: think it's more just like it makes financially more sense
Speaker 1: to tour knowing people are going to come, but but like, spiritually,
Speaker 1: there's something so special about the shows that people were
Speaker 1: very sparsely attended at, Like the shows that I saw
Speaker 1: a kid of bands, you know, coming through Philly that like,
Speaker 1: I think I saw that band Hella play to like
Speaker 1: nine people, and the drummer Zach I wish I could
Speaker 1: remember his last name. He's the drummer of Death Grips.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, he's amazing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And watching him play to nine people in like
Speaker 1: the you know, a church basement as a teenager just
Speaker 1: completely blew my mind. And I think if it was
Speaker 1: full of people would have been cool too, But there
Speaker 1: was something so unique about having such an intimate experience,
Speaker 1: and I was always into that. I always loved small shows,
Speaker 1: and yeah, playing for five people, I mean, maybe the
Speaker 1: worst thing is playing for no people, but luckily, luckily
Speaker 1: there was at least one person always.
Speaker 2: You know, I know Jackie O motherfucker and the music,
Speaker 2: and I can completely hear their influence on what you're
Speaker 2: doing now when you're saying like you'd play in that band,
Speaker 2: but then you do your solo shows as well. Was
Speaker 2: that under the name wise Blood Stale?
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it was spilled b l uhd?
Speaker 2: Right? Was it really aggressive noise?
Speaker 1: I think there were hints of, you know, the Wise
Speaker 1: Blood of the Future even in that, because there were songs,
Speaker 1: they were just very much like loud and kind of
Speaker 1: droning and blasting with the electric guitar. I had this
Speaker 1: instrument that I built that was basically like a six
Speaker 1: foot long slide guitar, and I would play the harmonics
Speaker 1: on that and run my voice through it and have
Speaker 1: tapes going and loops and you know, like it was
Speaker 1: very modal, and I was very inspired by Nico and
Speaker 1: the Velvet Underground. So there were songs in there, but
Speaker 1: it was just kind of very loud. Those days were great,
Speaker 1: and I think I never did a wonderful job of
Speaker 1: documenting them. I was kind of too chicken to really
Speaker 1: put out records because people offered me, but it wasn't
Speaker 1: until I think three years later I put out my
Speaker 1: first album. After that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, would that have been the one on Not Not Fun?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I love that LABEO was that label was still going.
Speaker 1: I don't think so. I think they're just kind of
Speaker 1: a l SEE thing, but they I could be wrong.
Speaker 1: I haven't touched base with them in a really long time.
Speaker 1: I did make one other album before that called Strange
Speaker 1: Chalices of Seeing. That was just a CDR that I
Speaker 1: would sell at my shows.
Speaker 2: So you're in LA. Now. You were born in LA,
Speaker 2: but you grew up in Pennsylvania, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I moved around a lot as a kid. I
Speaker 1: moved to Pennsylvania when I was eleven, so I kind
Speaker 1: of spent the most of my formative years there.
Speaker 2: And until then you were in LA. So you have
Speaker 2: memories of La as a kid, right.
Speaker 1: Big time? Yeah. I mean I consider California my true
Speaker 1: true home. In Pennsylvania is like I always felt like
Speaker 1: an outsider on the East Coast. I always wanted to
Speaker 1: be from there, but it's such an old place that's
Speaker 1: so like, you know, stubborn and stuck in its ways.
Speaker 2: What was it that made you want to be from
Speaker 2: the East Coast?
Speaker 1: Well, I think yeah, because it just seemed cooler, It
Speaker 1: just seemed less And I mean now I've kind of
Speaker 1: grown to be more into the California thing. But California
Speaker 1: is so progressive that, you know, it has this weird
Speaker 1: nights to it. It's kind of lost and all the
Speaker 1: culture is like completely fabricated, kind of smoke and mirrors culture,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of coinciding with also like the hippie movement,
Speaker 1: which is very inspirational to me, like I love you know,
Speaker 1: all that stereotypical stuff. But the East Coast has a
Speaker 1: lot of Ivy League schools and people you know, read books,
Speaker 1: So there's this the kind of cool that comes out
Speaker 1: of the East Coast. I would compare it like the
Speaker 1: Velvet Underground versus The Grateful Dead, Like both wonderful bands,
Speaker 1: but the Velvet Underground just has this this kind of
Speaker 1: like reaching back into the nineteenth century kind of art trajectory.
Speaker 2: I guess, can you remember when you sort of realized
Speaker 2: what LA was to the rest of the world, you know,
Speaker 2: how it's looked upon the film industry, the whole thing
Speaker 2: that is LA. Because obviously, when you're when you're when
Speaker 2: you're born there, it's sort of for a certain amount
Speaker 2: of time. I imagine when this is just home, it's
Speaker 2: all I know. But can you remember when you sort
Speaker 2: of was it. Once you moved away, you realized how
Speaker 2: people felt about LA and how they sort of look
Speaker 2: upon it, or was it whilst you was still there.
Speaker 1: There were definitely times that people, you know, would be like, oh,
Speaker 1: she's from Hollywood, She's from Hollywood, And I was like,
Speaker 1: I didn't live in Hollywood, but that's what they thought.
Speaker 1: And yeah, there were definitely moments I felt discriminated against,
Speaker 1: just from like I think one time, like a yard
Speaker 1: patrol person, like when you had recess, there's always like
Speaker 1: adults kind of patrolling the situation. And I talked back
Speaker 1: to her something and she said something like La La
Speaker 1: Land or something like that. But to this day, I
Speaker 1: don't know if I imagined it, like I wondered if
Speaker 1: I just created my own fantasy about it being so unique,
Speaker 1: but people were just like whatever. I mean. Culturally, it
Speaker 1: was a culture shock, like going from LA to rural Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1: It's very different. But I remember also being so inspired
Speaker 1: by like history, like being confronted with you know, history
Speaker 1: that's hundreds and hundreds of years old, versus everything being
Speaker 1: relatively kind of new.
Speaker 2: Now considering what you do and do you have any
Speaker 2: dealings with Hollywood? Do you ever sort of dip your
Speaker 2: toe in that world.
Speaker 1: I mean, just as much as any other musician. I
Speaker 1: guess maybe a little more because I love movies. I
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean you can, you can if you
Speaker 1: want that. You can definitely roll up in LA and
Speaker 1: you can go to parties and you can see celebs
Speaker 1: if you want. It's a bit of a spectacle. I
Speaker 1: don't necessarily like seek that out, but I'm sure it's
Speaker 1: it's something that could be intoxicating to somebody who's never
Speaker 1: experienced it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I find it very intoxicating. Have you been. Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think that's you know, that's the trade. We've got
Speaker 2: the really old buildings and you've got the movie system
Speaker 2: and the stars, and it's very there.
Speaker 1: Was I will tell one funny story. I actually have
Speaker 1: a roommate and he's way more connected with the film
Speaker 1: industry because he dated an actress for a long time,
Speaker 1: and so we were watching the Golden Globes just for fun,
Speaker 1: and then afterward he was like, well, that was pretty cool.
Speaker 1: Do you want to go see all those people? And
Speaker 1: I was just kind of like, I'm in my pajamas,
Speaker 1: I don't know, and he's just like, throw on a dress.
Speaker 1: And so I just put on a dress and we
Speaker 1: rolled to this party and saw like everybody. It was
Speaker 1: like the Golden Globes like after party or whatever, and
Speaker 1: saw everybody, and I remember thinking, like, you know, just
Speaker 1: a second ago, I was like going to go to sleep,
Speaker 1: and here I am like standing and Leo just walked
Speaker 1: by or whatever, and it was it was definitely fascinating.
Speaker 2: I get bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is this is
Speaker 2: the allure of of La La to me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I do think it's like it is important
Speaker 1: at least to mention that like the whole kind of
Speaker 1: institution of fame and celebrity is really, you know, kind
Speaker 1: of depressing. So I think, you know, living in La
Speaker 1: being from here and having you know, different qualities that
Speaker 1: I associate with it sometimes I do think that like
Speaker 1: that kind of attitude towards it makes it way less interesting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, like as a community, I think that it's
Speaker 1: already really difficult because it's a huge sprawl of a
Speaker 1: city that's everything's just so spread out. It's like these
Speaker 1: little tiny villages and so like to have a social
Speaker 1: atmosphere kind of based on people, you know, trying to
Speaker 1: be in the right place at the right moment and
Speaker 1: not really kind of being you know, present. It makes
Speaker 1: for like, yeah, pretty dramatic variation and like social engagement
Speaker 1: when I think other cities have maybe a little bit
Speaker 1: more of a genuine, you know, physical situation like New York,
Speaker 1: where you kind of have to be around everybody all
Speaker 1: the time. Yes, I'm in La. You kind of drive
Speaker 1: around in your pod and you pick and choose, and yeah,
Speaker 1: I can get really psychedelic. And I think that I
Speaker 1: find it sad when people and artists and musicians move
Speaker 1: here and kind of just you know, want to sleep
Speaker 1: with a movie star and that's like why they're here.
Speaker 1: I think people I think La has changed, you know,
Speaker 1: I think people move here now to do music and
Speaker 1: be cool.
Speaker 2: How do you think it's better for it? Do you
Speaker 2: think that's a good thing.
Speaker 1: No. I think that a part of maybe what was
Speaker 1: so cool about LA in the past was that it
Speaker 1: really did have a very distinct quality to it because
Speaker 1: it was it wasn't your typical city. And then I
Speaker 1: think when a lot of people moved here, some of
Speaker 1: those qualities, you know, kind of got a little blurred
Speaker 1: with just basic gentrification. But I do think that that
Speaker 1: is the perspective any person would have, you know, like oh,
Speaker 1: ten or fifteen years ago, it was really great. You know,
Speaker 1: it's like that is definitely you know, just kind of
Speaker 1: me revealing my age at that point.
Speaker 2: What was Doyle's town like, because that's where that those
Speaker 2: formative years we were talking about in Pennsylvania that we
Speaker 2: were in Doylestown.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, Doyle Doto.
Speaker 2: Doto is that what it's called.
Speaker 1: That's what we would call it. Okay, Doylestown is like
Speaker 1: a very cute small town near a lot of farms.
Speaker 1: There's actually like a burrough with like a little clock
Speaker 1: tower and an old tile factory from the nineteenth century
Speaker 1: that's all made of cement. And yeah, I mean it was.
Speaker 1: It was definitely like, you know, not much going on.
Speaker 1: There's a cool community of you know, hardcore bands.
Speaker 2: I've read that Pink is from Doylestown.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the artist Pink totally. She was just In Guarini.
Speaker 2: Who's just In Goreini? I don't know.
Speaker 1: He was the first American idol. He was him and
Speaker 1: Kelly Clarkson against each other.
Speaker 2: Oh and did did Kelly win that?
Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, she won.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Pink. Pinks are quite a bit older than you, maybe
Speaker 2: ten years older than you, I think. So it's not
Speaker 2: like you. You probably wouldn't have come into like contact with
Speaker 2: her at school and stuff.
Speaker 1: I met her once in middle of school, Oh you did.
Speaker 1: She came and visited my choir teacher. That was her
Speaker 1: choir teacher.
Speaker 2: Was this once she had already become a star mm hmm.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I just remember I went up to her
Speaker 1: and I was like, do you like the Kids in
Speaker 1: the Hall? Because I was like obsessed with that TV show,
Speaker 1: The Kids in the Hall. And she's like, I like
Speaker 1: that show. That's all we said to each other.
Speaker 2: That's that's a nice And you haven't met since, no,
Speaker 2: but when you do meet her, you're going to have
Speaker 2: lots to talk about.
Speaker 1: We'll talk about Doorstown, I know. She so I live
Speaker 1: off a road called Pebble Hill Road, and I remember
Speaker 1: she had some connection to that road. She would like
Speaker 1: practice with some grungy band.
Speaker 2: So at what point did you move to Portland for college?
Speaker 1: I went to college for one year in Portland.
Speaker 2: You went into the noisey that but were you already
Speaker 2: sort of interesting?
Speaker 1: So I got into noise in high school. I think
Speaker 1: it was when I started going to shows in the city.
Speaker 1: I take the train to Philly and just try to
Speaker 1: go to as many shows as I could. And I mean,
Speaker 1: the hardcore noise kind of overlap was just kind of
Speaker 1: starting to happen. And I saw this band Buzzard Stain,
Speaker 1: which was yeah, Nate from wolf Ey's and Twig from
Speaker 1: Nautical Almanac, and that was, like, I guess, the first
Speaker 1: proper noise band that I saw live. And I just
Speaker 1: remember immediately being like, this is the future, Like this
Speaker 1: is it. These guys have cracked the code. This is
Speaker 1: completely new. It completely deconstructs rock and roll, like this
Speaker 1: is the logic, logical progression of music. So I really
Speaker 1: drank the kool aid, and then I, you know, got
Speaker 1: the Wolfy's sub Pop record and started just going to
Speaker 1: record stores and combing the new Arrival section and looking
Speaker 1: for weird kind of noisy music. And then, you know,
Speaker 1: because the Internet that was starting to happen, getting on
Speaker 1: MySpace and kind of posting my weird kind of noisy
Speaker 1: music to MySpace. I met a lot of people. It's
Speaker 1: really funny. When I later on, when I lived in Baltimore,
Speaker 1: I met Alex from Beach House and we were just
Speaker 1: chatting and he's like, you know, what's really funny? Maybe
Speaker 1: like in two thousand and six, I saw your MySpace
Speaker 1: page and I thought it was really weird and cool
Speaker 1: and I never forgot that and I was just like, yeah,
Speaker 1: like that was a cool time. You know, you could
Speaker 1: book a whole tour on MySpace. It was really funny.
Speaker 2: It was great, wasn't it. It was like sort of
Speaker 2: the I guess it was this little window when social
Speaker 2: media was sort of felt quite pure and very community led.
Speaker 2: People hadn't started just using it to sort of it
Speaker 2: hadn't been weaponized as much, I guess, or it hadn't
Speaker 2: been co opted. And no, I think because it was
Speaker 2: so music focused that you know, you just discovered so
Speaker 2: much stuff and it was just it had just had
Speaker 2: a real diy quality to it, didn't it that I
Speaker 2: think it did. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think that's because that kind of golden age we're
Speaker 1: talking about was when people were taking what they knew
Speaker 1: from real life and just applying it to the medium, yes,
Speaker 1: versus the medium informing real life, which I think like
Speaker 1: at a certain point the scales tipped. Sure, but like yeah,
Speaker 1: you'd go on MySpace and you'd connect with people, but
Speaker 1: you would connect with them because you wanted to find
Speaker 1: out where to go. You know. It wasn't like this
Speaker 1: disembodied Internet only presence.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and people weren't really lurking on there like you know,
Speaker 2: everybody felt it felt like everybody was active. If you
Speaker 2: were on it, you were contributing something to it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I lurked a little bit too. I've always been a lurker.
Speaker 1: What happened?
Speaker 2: How are you with like like social media now?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I try not to get to into it.
Speaker 1: I'm like everybody else where, like the algorithm has figured
Speaker 1: out the reels that I want to see. And I
Speaker 1: mean I'm kind of just as complicit as most people,
Speaker 1: which is funny because I do preach the negative effects
Speaker 1: of having your life constantly kind of interrupted by this
Speaker 1: dopamine machine. But I think for me, touring and kind
Speaker 1: of engaging with my fans kind of eclipsed my desire
Speaker 1: to be you know, totally private. Doing an album cycle
Speaker 1: and doing social media at the same time was really fun,
Speaker 1: just to let them know what's going on. Because I
Speaker 1: think nowadays we don't have necessarily the same kind of
Speaker 1: music journalism we used to do, and getting people to
Speaker 1: know about what's happening is difficult, and especially with the
Speaker 1: algorithm too, Like who knows if your fans or your
Speaker 1: followers are even going to see your posts. So I
Speaker 1: think it is important to stay engaged with your fans.
Speaker 1: So I kind of look at it like it's really
Speaker 1: between me and them, and everything else is just kind
Speaker 1: of whatever, and I can't pretend to be anything that
Speaker 1: I'm not, so I kind of gave up on that
Speaker 1: a long time ago. I would say, though, like last
Speaker 1: thought about social media is I do think the industry
Speaker 1: of music kind of I think people who do nine
Speaker 1: to five's at a label or like you know, A
Speaker 1: and R people, I don't think they really know why
Speaker 1: people love music. And I think they think, oh, you
Speaker 1: just need to get viral or you just need to
Speaker 1: be like out there, like look at these numbers, you know,
Speaker 1: Like that's all true, But I think there's like a
Speaker 1: deeper mystery to what makes music good, and the people
Speaker 1: that actually just record really good music and make good
Speaker 1: songs don't have to be on social media, as you see,
Speaker 1: like sometimes the biggest people eventually just say like see
Speaker 1: you like, no need. So I do think that that's
Speaker 1: a myth that needs to be broken as this idea
Speaker 1: that like, oh, I'm a musician and it's so hard
Speaker 1: because I have to keep posting, and it's like sadly,
Speaker 1: maybe you should listen to your music and you know,
Speaker 1: like kind of take it from there versus we work
Speaker 1: on catching up with all the TikTok trends. Like I
Speaker 1: think if people focused more on on, you know, writing
Speaker 1: great music, it would create a better environment versus like
Speaker 1: learning how to be digitally savvy or something. I don't know.
Speaker 2: Do you think that's true of new artists as well, though,
Speaker 2: because someone might see her for example, you know, she
Speaker 2: definitely doesn't need to be on there, but she's sort
Speaker 2: of already got that fan base that's going to find
Speaker 2: the stuff. I think if you're sort of operating in
Speaker 2: an underground DIY scene, then maybe you're you're still sort
Speaker 2: of attracting an audience, a core audience, in quite an
Speaker 2: effective way without it, And then there seems to me
Speaker 2: to be this big gap between that sort of crowd
Speaker 2: of artists and you know, established artists who without it
Speaker 2: would sort of be a bit stuck with how do
Speaker 2: they know? Share release dates, all of that sort of thing.
Speaker 2: And I think they therefore are forced into falling into
Speaker 2: this world where the social media becomes almost as important
Speaker 2: as the thing they're making.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, no, of course. I think what I mean
Speaker 1: more is actually, like you do when there's no way
Speaker 1: for anybody to know anything about you, it is important
Speaker 1: to have like a centralized place that exists in the
Speaker 1: hyperspace of the Internet for people to find out whether
Speaker 1: or not that's your voice, or whether or not you're
Speaker 1: posting selfies or posting what you ate that day. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's kind of more. What I'm talking about is like
Speaker 1: you can be like a you know, you can have
Speaker 1: information about you on the Internet, and unfortunately without the
Speaker 1: same kind of DIY scene that I used to have
Speaker 1: in terms of just like being on a tour circuit,
Speaker 1: a lot of those venues shut down, so it is
Speaker 1: harder to kind of tour and build this grassroots IRL presence.
Speaker 1: But I still think that, you know, the music is
Speaker 1: what gets you to the place.
Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, yeah, absolutely, talking of venues that shut down,
Speaker 2: is the smell still there in LA or is that gone?
Speaker 1: The smell is still here?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 2: It is still there? Okay, nice, because I remember.
Speaker 1: I think it's an institution.
Speaker 2: I got so into the first Health album Oh Yeah,
Speaker 2: which they recorded in the inside the Smell. I think
Speaker 2: they spent days just hitting snares in there and micing
Speaker 2: it all up. And around that time I became really
Speaker 2: sort of just fascinated by that whole scene and that venue,
Speaker 2: and it was, you know, had a bit of sort
Speaker 2: of presence in UK, sort of underground media, I guess,
Speaker 2: but I haven't haven't heard it written about for a while,
Speaker 2: so I was wondering if it was if it was
Speaker 2: still there, or if it had been sort of you know,
Speaker 2: closed for whatever reason. But good to hear that still there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I also think there was a my
Speaker 1: friend had a DIY space for a while and he
Speaker 1: shut it down because people just wouldn't show up. And
Speaker 1: my my other friend in Nashville made a joke T
Speaker 1: shirt called yeah I Love DIY, and then across DIY
Speaker 1: was spelled doubt I'll go to your show. So, I mean,
Speaker 1: I do think there's a couple of reasons why the
Speaker 1: DIY scene dried up. I do think in some ways
Speaker 1: people became less interesting performers, and I think that people
Speaker 1: also started being there looking at their phones, not thinking
Speaker 1: it was the center of the universe, like being like, oh,
Speaker 1: there might be another place to be, or like this
Speaker 1: might not be the place, and that lack of you know,
Speaker 1: kind of focused because when I was young, it's like
Speaker 1: any show you'd go to, you'd show up and it
Speaker 1: just felt like the center of the universe. It felt
Speaker 1: like there was no other place you could possibly want
Speaker 1: to be or be like that was the place. And
Speaker 1: I don't know if people still get that feeling as
Speaker 1: much at these little shows. I'm sure they do. I
Speaker 1: think it's kind of always going to be subsisting in
Speaker 1: the underground of with like young people always, but I
Speaker 1: do think that there was like a noticeable dip in attendance.
Speaker 1: It shows like that at a certain point, and I
Speaker 1: do think a part of it is the phone.
Speaker 2: The phones generally bother you when you're on stage.
Speaker 1: I mean I noticed when people are filming me and
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, I hope it sounds.
Speaker 2: Good, but it doesn't bother you that that doing that
Speaker 2: rather than just listening.
Speaker 1: No, I mean I don't. I'm not that like, I'm
Speaker 1: not going to Bob Dylan it. I'm not going to
Speaker 1: be like put your phone down. I to each his own.
Speaker 2: You know, one thing I really wanted to ask you
Speaker 2: about was the front cover the album art of Titanic Rising,
Speaker 2: because it's such an amazing photo, and I wanted to
Speaker 2: ask you how you created it and is it essentially
Speaker 2: as simple as it looks. I'm sure everyone does know
Speaker 2: what this image I'm talking about looks like, but in
Speaker 2: case they don't, it is an underwater a bedroom that
Speaker 2: is completely submerged underwater, and you're at the bottom of
Speaker 2: the tank. I guess if you shot it in a tank,
Speaker 2: as if you're standing in the room that has got
Speaker 2: a desk in it and a bed and a laptop,
Speaker 2: I think, and stuff's on the table, and it's so
Speaker 2: beautifully shot. But it's sort of a I'll put a
Speaker 2: link under this podcast so people can view it easily.
Speaker 2: But how did that image come about? And how did
Speaker 2: you do it?
Speaker 1: I did it in a swimming pool. I found a
Speaker 1: photographer who liked to shoot things underwater, who knew about
Speaker 1: what it was like to work underwater, because everything is
Speaker 1: twice as hard, it takes twice as much time, twice
Speaker 1: as many things can go wrong. I bet you can't breathe,
Speaker 1: you know. So I was the root of the idea
Speaker 1: started with I was talking to my roommate at the time,
Speaker 1: who's a painter Ariana Popata Metropolis. She's a really brilliant painter,
Speaker 1: and I was like, I really want to do an
Speaker 1: underwater album cover, and I want it to be like
Speaker 1: a living room and I'm like sitting on the couch,
Speaker 1: and then she kind of was like, hmm, maybe you
Speaker 1: should do a bedroom. And then I was like, oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, that's an incredible idea. So then I kind
Speaker 1: of gathered all the stuff for the bedroom, like I
Speaker 1: found things in the trash, I thrifted. I did all
Speaker 1: the creative direction, you know, with that with my manager
Speaker 1: at the time, and we actually hired somebody to build
Speaker 1: the set underwater, but he failed because he didn't realize
Speaker 1: how difficult it would be. So the second time around,
Speaker 1: we were successful in making the walls and kind of
Speaker 1: stapling everything down so it didn't completely float away, and
Speaker 1: then we had, you know, a good three hours to
Speaker 1: shoot before everything started to disintegrate and bloat and really change.
Speaker 1: So it was like this very time and space capturing moment.
Speaker 2: I've got it. I've got it in front of me.
Speaker 2: Here there's a dressing little dressing table on the right,
Speaker 2: But there's a sort of chest of draws I guess
Speaker 2: at the back there where you're high fi on it,
Speaker 2: which I can see is sort of bowing. Was that
Speaker 2: because of the water or was it?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Okay, right, so when you put it in there, it
Speaker 2: wasn't doing that.
Speaker 1: I mean it's all like kind of particle wood furniture.
Speaker 1: So yeah.
Speaker 2: You also look because you're in it as well, and
Speaker 2: you look so sort of you look very relaxed, and
Speaker 2: it doesn't look like you're being wayed down. Did you
Speaker 2: just work?
Speaker 1: Did you you just got to exhale?
Speaker 2: Okay, like a free diver. Yeah.
Speaker 1: No, there was like a major learning curve with like
Speaker 1: getting over the feeling of being in there and being
Speaker 1: like you're going to die because you're holding your breath
Speaker 1: and kind of the mind over matter of like getting
Speaker 1: down and like sinking into the room and just spending
Speaker 1: you know, like kind of like ten seconds at a
Speaker 1: time relaxed and then kind of going back up for air.
Speaker 1: And it was really really difficult because the chlorine in
Speaker 1: the water was really intense. So by the end of
Speaker 1: the night I actually couldn't see anything. I was like
Speaker 1: blinded by how many hours I'd spent with my eyes
Speaker 1: open underwater. Yeah, it was. You know, the sacrifices we
Speaker 1: make for our it's really beautiful. It's all worth it.
Speaker 2: We appreciate it as fans, we appreciate it. Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 2: it's worth it. Yeah. It's been a year almost to
Speaker 2: the day since, and the darkness heart's aglow. Do you
Speaker 2: genuinely like looking back on things or are you more
Speaker 2: head forward looking for the next thing.
Speaker 1: I'm looking for the next thing usually, Yeah, especially with
Speaker 1: recorded music, because you spend so much time making it
Speaker 1: and recording it and mixing it that by the end
Speaker 1: of it you're kind of like, I just want to
Speaker 1: make another thing now to erase that memory, and then
Speaker 1: also playing it for a year, you know, is really
Speaker 1: fun and rewarding, but also like, yeah, you want to
Speaker 1: play new songs after a while.
Speaker 2: Is the plan still for the next record to be
Speaker 2: the final part of the trilogy that you're currently working on,
Speaker 2: Withonic Rising being the first part, the current album being
Speaker 2: the second. You've got one more, Yeah, which is going
Speaker 2: to be from what I've heard and read in interviews
Speaker 2: from yourself, hopeful, we're into the hope stage. Is that
Speaker 2: still the plan.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've been writing, and I haven't really gone into
Speaker 1: the studio yet, but I've been writing a lot.
Speaker 2: How's twenty twenty three been for you? Generally?
Speaker 1: Life changing? I think this year, I mean I love
Speaker 1: twenty three anyway, So I kind of had good feelings
Speaker 1: about the year anyway, But it was it was all chemical,
Speaker 1: you know. I think, like everybody else, my experience of
Speaker 1: the pandemic really shifted my relationship with the world and myself,
Speaker 1: and it was a pretty jarring experience for me. So
Speaker 1: getting to come back out and sing these songs and
Speaker 1: share it with an audience was really healing and kind
Speaker 1: of like reaching this point of just running on pure spirit.
Speaker 1: Because it was also really exhausting, because the pandemic was
Speaker 1: such an exhausting experience, Like there would be these kind
Speaker 1: of expansions and then contraction where it's like summer twenty
Speaker 1: twenty one, we're back and everybody's raging, and then all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, like, no, we're not back, you know,
Speaker 1: Like I think there was a little stop and go,
Speaker 1: stop and go, and so like everybody kind of had
Speaker 1: their own reactions at different times because it was it dragged, dragged.
Speaker 2: On twenty one was my worst, and then twenty twenty
Speaker 2: twenty one, what was that real? That was as low
Speaker 2: as it could get, I think for me.
Speaker 1: But the parties in that summer were some of the
Speaker 1: most fun parties I've ever been to.
Speaker 2: So did you have a good time at Glastonbury this year?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I loved it. It was one of the best.
Speaker 2: Was that your first time or you'd been before?
Speaker 1: That was my first time? I also like I had
Speaker 1: like a midlife club crisis. What is it? Is it
Speaker 1: called Sector nine? What is the section of the festival
Speaker 1: that's all the clubs, It's you know, Block nine, Block nine. Yeah, yeah, No,
Speaker 1: I had a really good time at Block nine, and
Speaker 1: I just found like the whole vibe of the festival
Speaker 1: was so magical and it's so you know, funny that
Speaker 1: like we in America had Woodstock, but we just could
Speaker 1: not keep that energy going. And it's amazing that in
Speaker 1: the UK you guys have kept that energy going since
Speaker 1: the early seventies with one festival. It's pretty miraculous.
Speaker 2: It's just amazing how yeah, that they've sustained it and
Speaker 2: it hasn't got sort of fucked up in any way,
Speaker 2: like with you know, they still don't really have a
Speaker 2: they don't have a big sponsor. The money goes to,
Speaker 2: you know, their partners, Green Peace, and it's it's it's
Speaker 2: this one weekend where everyone can sort of just experience
Speaker 2: sort of how good things could be, perhaps for a
Speaker 2: finite time. I mean, I don't think I want to
Speaker 2: live in Grastonbury forever, but whilst it's on it, I
Speaker 2: mean it's quite it's quite unvaiable. I'm glad. I'm glad
Speaker 2: you enjoyed it. You played under make you played a
Speaker 2: lovely stage as well. That park stage on the Hill
Speaker 2: is really a nice spot.
Speaker 1: It was really special.
Speaker 2: You're obviously a huge fan of the Velvet Underground and
Speaker 2: I just wanted to ask you what it was like
Speaker 2: to feature on John Kale's album Mercy this year.
Speaker 1: It was a huge, huge deal for me. It was
Speaker 1: a really big moment. We actually recorded that many years ago.
Speaker 1: How I met John was I interviewed him for a
Speaker 1: magazine and my questions were just so specific and deep
Speaker 1: cut that I think he was a little intrigued about
Speaker 1: who I was, and he checked out my music and
Speaker 1: then invited me to come sing, and when I sang
Speaker 1: it was like he was, you know, kind of getting
Speaker 1: me to sing these really low notes, which he ended
Speaker 1: up kind of altering in post, and like the song
Speaker 1: became unrecognizable to what we had recorded, which I thought
Speaker 1: was really really creative and cool. And his studio was
Speaker 1: just kind of full of toy pianos and nothing else,
Speaker 1: which I thought was really wild, and apparently at the
Speaker 1: end of the recording he smashed them all. But yeah,
Speaker 1: just meeting him, it was so wonderful to get to
Speaker 1: kind of talk about classical music and just all these
Speaker 1: things that I never get to talk to other musicians about.
Speaker 1: It's rare to meet somebody who there's so many meeting
Speaker 1: points of kind of taste and kind of respect that
Speaker 1: I have for him, and every moment I get with him,
Speaker 1: I think is so precious.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, for someone who loves that band, and
Speaker 2: that band obviously means so much to you, It's sort
Speaker 2: of doesn't much get much better than that, does it,
Speaker 2: Especially if the experience is a really positive one and
Speaker 2: you've not gone to meet John Cale and it's been.
Speaker 1: Horrible, you know, I feel really lucky. I got to
Speaker 1: meet Lou Reed too, and he was really nice to me,
Speaker 1: which is really rare. I feel like that was like
Speaker 1: a weird like gift from the heavens or something. I
Speaker 1: was at Occupy Wall Street leaving with with a big
Speaker 1: protest sign and lou Reid literally came up to me
Speaker 1: and he was like, how's the protest? And then he
Speaker 1: took my hand and he started warming my hand because
Speaker 1: it was really cold, and looking into my eyes, and
Speaker 1: I was like, what is going on? Like this guy's
Speaker 1: being so nice, and then I ran to my car.
Speaker 1: I got a copy of The Outside Room, my first
Speaker 1: you know album, and handed it to him. And then
Speaker 1: I think he was a little like, oh, you do
Speaker 1: music weird?
Speaker 2: So he just approached you. And it wasn't because you
Speaker 2: were analysis and he wanted to talk to you about that.
Speaker 2: He was just being a friendly guy.
Speaker 1: He just saw I was dressed pretty funny. I was
Speaker 1: like dressed in a weird medieval outfit and I had
Speaker 1: like a you know, a sign about not letting the
Speaker 1: capitalist zombies take over.
Speaker 2: Did he join in in the in the protest or
Speaker 2: was he passing by?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: He was. He was around for Occupy for sure.
Speaker 2: Definitely amazing God to me. Did you ever see him play?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 1: I was just so young that I kind of missed.
Speaker 1: I also, I think at that age I wouldn't spend
Speaker 1: money on concert tickets, something I sorely regret now, but
Speaker 1: I always thought they were too expensive.
Speaker 2: I saw him once towards the end, and it was
Speaker 2: kind of like, I mean, he certainly wasn't nice to
Speaker 2: the people on stage like he was to you. He
Speaker 2: was furious at his band. He must have liked you,
Speaker 2: I don't like me. I don't know what his band
Speaker 2: had done, but.
Speaker 1: I mean, I hear these stories all the time. It's scary,
Speaker 1: it's said.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was pretty livid. He spent the whole time
Speaker 2: just ragging on the whole band for everything they did.
Speaker 2: And he played some really strange versions of Velvets tunes,
Speaker 2: which you know is still great. You're getting to hear
Speaker 2: lou Reid play some Velvet underground, but he would just
Speaker 2: speak quite contrary and play them all at like half
Speaker 2: speed or just strange, strange lou reedness.
Speaker 1: But you know, Bob Dylan does a very similar thing.
Speaker 1: It's really weird.
Speaker 2: Yeah, have you seen him?
Speaker 1: I saw him play maybe eight years ago. I don't know.
Speaker 1: His recent show is probably different. But the show that
Speaker 1: I saw he would do, you know, like the answer
Speaker 1: my friend is blowing in the wind, Like you would
Speaker 1: just change all the timing and the audience would be
Speaker 1: singing the old timing. So there was like this weird, cacophonous,
Speaker 1: like kind of murky like you know version of the
Speaker 1: song kind of roaring throughout the stadium, and he was
Speaker 1: just like free, you know, freestyling over it. It was
Speaker 1: pretty psychedelic.
Speaker 2: I don't understand why he does that.
Speaker 1: I think they have to. I don't think they can
Speaker 1: keep doing the same thing for like forty to fifty
Speaker 1: sixty years, Like, yeah, that guy at this point sixty years,
Speaker 1: could you sing the same song for sixty years?
Speaker 2: That's true? But do you think like just don't play it?
Speaker 2: Like it's fine to not play, isn't it? Because I
Speaker 2: think people get more upset hearing it offbeat of strange
Speaker 2: than just not doing it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I don't know, I get it. It's a
Speaker 1: weird decision, but I understand it. It's a meeting point
Speaker 1: to compromise. Just give the people what they want, but
Speaker 1: only a little bit.
Speaker 3: Midnight Chats is a joint production between Loud and Quiet
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Speaker 3: and Greg Cochrane, mixed and mastered by Flow Lines and
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