WEBVTT - Thomas Piketty Talks Wealth Taxes

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<v Speaker 1>Can you just give us, as solow somewhere in terms

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<v Speaker 1>of your current assessment of where you think the path

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<v Speaker 1>of inequality is right now.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, I'm trying. You know, it's it's easy

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<v Speaker 2>to be sort of very negative and very pessimistic about

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<v Speaker 2>the present. So I'm trying, you know, to give some

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<v Speaker 2>some optimistic long term view and long term perspective. And

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<v Speaker 2>this is something you know, I already was I was

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<v Speaker 2>doing in my book A Brief History of Equality, where

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<v Speaker 2>I stress, you know, the long run movement toward more equality,

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<v Speaker 2>which has been an enormous success in in you know, historically,

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<v Speaker 2>and which we tend to forget. You know, I think

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<v Speaker 2>sometimes we are so sort of accustomed to the fact

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<v Speaker 2>that the income scale today is so much more compress

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<v Speaker 2>than it was one hundred years ago, you know, in

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<v Speaker 2>spite of the increase in recent decades, that we tend

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<v Speaker 2>to forget. We tend to forget about that. So I

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<v Speaker 2>start from this historical legacy, and I try to look

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<v Speaker 2>at the future from this perspective because I think, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the challenges of the future, in particular the financing of

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<v Speaker 2>the energy transition, the climate transitions, the new needs in

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<v Speaker 2>health infrastructure spending, education spending, you know, with the majority

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<v Speaker 2>of generation now going to aigher education in many countries,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know that's not going to stop. If anything,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, this will continue, and these sectors are going

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<v Speaker 2>to keep growing. And that's good in many many ways,

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<v Speaker 2>including from the point of view of the material footprint

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<v Speaker 2>of our economic activities. But given given all these needs

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<v Speaker 2>for for you know, financing important investment for common future,

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<v Speaker 2>there's no way this can happen, you know, without continuing

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<v Speaker 2>in the compression of inequality. And you know, otherwise the

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<v Speaker 2>middle class, the lower class will not accept any of this,

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<v Speaker 2>any any of this energy investment and public spending in

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<v Speaker 2>the so, so this will So my is that in

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<v Speaker 2>the long run, you know, this will have to happen

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<v Speaker 2>because there's just no other way, okay to make it work. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>no other way.

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<v Speaker 1>But we're getting to a crunch point now, where is

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<v Speaker 1>there's also talk of wealth taxes across from.

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<v Speaker 2>Across the UK.

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<v Speaker 1>So I want to specifically hone in on this idea

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<v Speaker 1>of a two percent weld tax that's being discussed in France.

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<v Speaker 1>Now is it a good idea?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh? Yes, this is the absolute minimum. I mean, the

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<v Speaker 2>problem is that it's too small. It's not going to

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<v Speaker 2>solve the you know, given again, given the size of

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<v Speaker 2>the public that plus the size of all the new

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<v Speaker 2>investment that's needed, you know, that will not be sufficient.

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<v Speaker 2>But yes, that's a that's a useful minimum to start

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<v Speaker 2>with them.

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<v Speaker 1>A useful minimum to start with. Is it going to happen?

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<v Speaker 1>Is that what is going to be needed in order

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<v Speaker 1>to France to pass.

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<v Speaker 2>A budget in France, Well, basically there are two possibilities

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<v Speaker 2>for the people in power in France. Now is all

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<v Speaker 2>the side with the right, so with the rational all

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<v Speaker 2>the side with the left, and then they need to

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<v Speaker 2>do this text they have to choose. I mean in

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<v Speaker 2>a way, the prime is that they want to pretend

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<v Speaker 2>that they don't have to choose them, that they can

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<v Speaker 2>continue to government their own except that they don't have

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<v Speaker 2>a majority. And you know, it's like that everywhere. I

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<v Speaker 2>would say, you know, a pure sort of pro business

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<v Speaker 2>policy does not renew a majority anywhere. Broadly speaking, that's

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<v Speaker 2>the sort of nationalist strategy. Oh you have more you know,

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<v Speaker 2>redistributive and more regalitarian, re distributive strategy. And so that's

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<v Speaker 2>this is the choice of the future in general, and

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<v Speaker 2>my take is that, Okay, I don't know which side

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<v Speaker 2>the French government is going to take. I think for

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<v Speaker 2>them it's more natural to go with the right. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>they already voted. To be very concrete, the Macro members

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<v Speaker 2>of Parliament already voted the Law and Immigration two years ago,

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<v Speaker 2>which gave a lot of what Elopen is asking for.

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<v Speaker 2>It was not entirely passed for technical juridical reason, but

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<v Speaker 2>they had actually voted a challenge in but you go

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<v Speaker 2>in the Law of Nationality how you become French, which

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<v Speaker 2>was conceding a lot of the automatic acquisition of nationality

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<v Speaker 2>for people going in front. So that's really a core

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<v Speaker 2>issue that the pen is asking for. They could go

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<v Speaker 2>in this direction. Ok, that's one way to get a majority,

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<v Speaker 2>but that's not the way I prefer. And you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think the ways that we'll solve the problem

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<v Speaker 2>we have to solve in the long run.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the two percent, there's a big debate about how

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<v Speaker 1>much it's really going to raise. You say that it's

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<v Speaker 1>inevitable that it has to be done, and if you

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<v Speaker 1>want to stay in power, be in power in European

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<v Speaker 1>countries and in France, included you need it. But there's

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<v Speaker 1>a massive debate about how much annually that two percent

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<v Speaker 1>wealth tax would actually raise the high numbers of fifteen

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<v Speaker 1>to twenty billion, but actually as low as three point

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<v Speaker 1>eight or below five billion a year. You're obviously in

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<v Speaker 1>the higher camp. But what happens if it's.

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<v Speaker 2>Much much less. The only way you can you can

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<v Speaker 2>debate it by four from twenty to five, is if

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<v Speaker 2>you start from the assumption that you know, top twelves

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<v Speaker 2>holders can evide seventy five percent of the tax and

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<v Speaker 2>there is nothing we can do about it. But you know,

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<v Speaker 2>if you start from this assumption, you know, you put

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<v Speaker 2>yourself first. This is not a natural law. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>you cannot say, oh, this is a law coming from

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<v Speaker 2>the sky. You know this economic science has told me

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<v Speaker 2>that the people can escape seventy five percent of the tax.

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<v Speaker 2>There's nothing you can do about it. But you have

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<v Speaker 2>to be very careful because when you make this kind

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<v Speaker 2>of claim and you pretain you talk in the name

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<v Speaker 2>of science of rationality and you tell people there's just

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<v Speaker 2>no way we can make these people pay the tax

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<v Speaker 2>on there because everybody agree. You know, let's be very

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<v Speaker 2>clear in terms of numbers, everybody agrees. At the top

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<v Speaker 2>five hundred wells soldiers in France, which is exactly the

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<v Speaker 2>people who are targeted by the tax have a total

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<v Speaker 2>wealth of over one thousand billion. You're one thousand, two

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<v Speaker 2>hundred billion. So everybody agrees that two percent of this

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<v Speaker 2>is going to make twenty twenty five. So if you

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<v Speaker 2>want to reduce this tax, for you estimate to five

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<v Speaker 2>If you want to divide it by for you have

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<v Speaker 2>to say in one way or another that you know

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<v Speaker 2>you will be able to tax only one quarter of

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<v Speaker 2>the wealth of these people. So you have to make

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<v Speaker 2>the plan. It's just no way.

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<v Speaker 1>But then people leave the country. That's the issues. If

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<v Speaker 1>the people leave the country.

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<v Speaker 2>But still you can you can still be liable to yes.

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<v Speaker 1>So then that's the idea of the five year plan,

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<v Speaker 1>even if you were to live France.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think the simplest way to do it. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>in the US they say, as long as you keep

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<v Speaker 2>the US citizenship, it's forever. I don't think that's one possibility,

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<v Speaker 2>but I don't think that's the best way. I think

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<v Speaker 2>a better way to do it is more in proportion

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<v Speaker 2>to the number of years of residents you've spent in

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<v Speaker 2>the country. So basically, if you it's a very simple logic.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, you've you've spent your first fifty years in France,

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<v Speaker 2>You've used French public infrastructure, public educational systems, public publicans,

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<v Speaker 2>the legal system. You how can you accumulate your wells

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<v Speaker 2>without the legal system? Then you go one year to

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<v Speaker 2>free their own. Okay, let's tart, but you still have

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<v Speaker 2>to pay fifty fifty first, a fraction, you know, close

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<v Speaker 2>to ninety five percent of the tax that you would

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<v Speaker 2>be paying if you stay in France. It's as simple

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<v Speaker 2>as that. And then if you don't want to pay it,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the thing is that it's not as if

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<v Speaker 2>these people have no relations with France. You know, they

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<v Speaker 2>have lots of relations with friends. They typically own buildings there,

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<v Speaker 2>they have family there. So if you don't pay it,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, you put yourself in the same position as

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<v Speaker 2>any one. Yes, we decide not to pay attack so

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<v Speaker 2>you know, your assets can be can be frozen, you

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<v Speaker 2>can be arrested at the airport. You know, that's the

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<v Speaker 2>life of normal people. You know, normal people cannot decide

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<v Speaker 2>that three quarters of the tax they're supposed to pay

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<v Speaker 2>they can do away with it. I mean you would

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<v Speaker 2>love to do that. I would everybody would love to

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<v Speaker 2>do that. But everybody will they can only if you

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<v Speaker 2>let them.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, is there any support in your view amongst the

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<v Speaker 1>wealthy individuals? I mean, you can name you know, Bernard

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<v Speaker 1>Arnaut has a lot much family, alvmge. You know, francois

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<v Speaker 1>better on cour mind? Are they in favor that some

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<v Speaker 1>of the big Americans?

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<v Speaker 2>Why would they be in favored?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, because some of the big American business people talk

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<v Speaker 1>about a philanthropy. Is there any support from this?

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<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of hypocrisy in these claims. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>this guy. People would like to get everything. They would

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<v Speaker 2>like to keep the power be viewed as generous that

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<v Speaker 2>they don't want to lose control. Look that perfectly humane.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't blame them, you know, it's it's fine. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>that's okay. You know, it's not a question of individual.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it's only a question of money. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's not the individual as such. The dignity of individuals,

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<v Speaker 2>the virtue of individual is not at stake. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>there are lots of nice people, I'm sure in this group,

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<v Speaker 2>like in every procubasonal book, So you know, it's just

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<v Speaker 2>a question of money. But you cannot expect that people

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<v Speaker 2>naturally want to give up their money and power. You

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<v Speaker 2>know this never happened like this, But let's let's let's

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<v Speaker 2>let's put things in perspective, because you know, this is

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<v Speaker 2>not the first time in history that we talk about

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<v Speaker 2>x REFILM. You know, we've had best from forever, you know.

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<v Speaker 1>And.

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<v Speaker 2>The point whether it has never been voluntary stand up,

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<v Speaker 2>then none of this reform would have happened. So this

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<v Speaker 2>makes no sense.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm sorry I only interrupted you because we have so

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<v Speaker 1>little time. But your point about the inflection point, about

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<v Speaker 1>whether we are at a point in history where things

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<v Speaker 1>are going to become more equal or less equal, I

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<v Speaker 1>mean to some minds, the contrarian mind might be actually

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<v Speaker 1>we're in an exceptional phase. You know, the world has

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<v Speaker 1>been dominated by Robert Barrons, by very wealthy individuals, and

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<v Speaker 1>perhaps we are returning to that.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>In terms of whether my other question is about the UK,

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<v Speaker 1>Rachel Reeves is also talking about tax increases, saying much

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<v Speaker 1>more nebulous the idea of well taxes in the UK.

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<v Speaker 1>If you were giving her advice ahead of the budget,

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<v Speaker 1>what would you say.

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<v Speaker 2>She should do the same as what is being discussed

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<v Speaker 2>in France as the starting point. You know, I think

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<v Speaker 2>it's a good starting point. This was also propose, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the G twenty submit by Brazil. You know, so this

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<v Speaker 2>idea of a minimum two percent tax for people above

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<v Speaker 2>a very high threshold one hundred million euro in net wells,

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<v Speaker 2>I think it is a good starting point because you

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<v Speaker 2>need to demonstrate to public opinion and to the rest

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<v Speaker 2>of the options that you know, it's possible to have

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<v Speaker 2>a tax with no tax lefl with no exemptions for

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<v Speaker 2>people who are really really wealthy. Otherwise, you know, how

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<v Speaker 2>can you ask people who are just millionaire or people

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<v Speaker 2>you know, five hundred pounds you know that they should pay,

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<v Speaker 2>if people above one hundred you are not sure that

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<v Speaker 2>they pay. So I think you have to start there, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>with you know, very high spreshold and relatively low tax. Right.

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<v Speaker 2>And look, when I wrote in Capitol in the twenty

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<v Speaker 2>first century, that was ten years ago, that we would

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<v Speaker 2>have you know, a world wid stax. When I was

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<v Speaker 2>talking already of your tax ragion five ten percent or

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<v Speaker 2>you know now I'm saying more ninety percent. But you know,

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<v Speaker 2>but even two persons, you know, it's an interesting starting point.

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<v Speaker 2>But when I was talking about this ten years ago,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, most people would say this is crazy, this

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<v Speaker 2>will never happen. Ten years lefter, you have a G

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<v Speaker 2>twenty submit where you know, government in the basil is

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<v Speaker 2>supporting these. Most European governments are sort of saying, oh, yes,

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<v Speaker 2>why not if we all do it? But we don't know,

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<v Speaker 2>We're not sure. But you know, the.

0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:38.800
<v Speaker 1>Business to business investment, the consequences I mean, for example, well,

0:11:38.679 --> 0:11:41.920
<v Speaker 1>the the US view perhaps or the more capitalist view,

0:11:41.960 --> 0:11:46.480
<v Speaker 1>would be that you squash any you know, the desire

0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:50.520
<v Speaker 1>to make outsized profits, to create artificial intelligence and make

0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:52.040
<v Speaker 1>those enormous leaps the business.

0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:54.439
<v Speaker 2>I mean, the little class can save an invest I

0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:57.840
<v Speaker 2>mean the idea that the investment has to come from

0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:01.800
<v Speaker 2>a few individual geniuses and that the rest of us

0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:05.320
<v Speaker 2>just us to watch them and applaud. You know, is

0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:10.320
<v Speaker 2>a sort of monarchical view of economic structure which is

0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:13.920
<v Speaker 2>completely at hod with our economic realities, which is that

0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:18.160
<v Speaker 2>we have you know, hundreds of thousands of engineers, the technicians,

0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:21.520
<v Speaker 2>the high skilled people who actually can and want to

0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:27.320
<v Speaker 2>participate to economic decision making, to investment. And historically, let

0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:30.560
<v Speaker 2>me make clear that. In fact, in the twentieth century,

0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:34.520
<v Speaker 2>what happened was a massive deconcentration of wealth. For just

0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:36.880
<v Speaker 2>to put numbers, you know, happen until World War One,

0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:40.440
<v Speaker 2>ninety percent of the world belong to the top ten percent,

0:12:40.559 --> 0:12:43.320
<v Speaker 2>including sixty percent to the top one person. This was

0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:46.680
<v Speaker 2>reduced enormously. Over the bourse of the twentieth century. You

0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:50.160
<v Speaker 2>had the rise of a giantic wells middle class. Did

0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:53.520
<v Speaker 2>it hurt growth? Did it hurt investment? This was exactly

0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:54.559
<v Speaker 2>the opposite because you had.

0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:57.120
<v Speaker 1>The living in the world in President Trump. Now, aren't

0:12:57.360 --> 0:13:00.240
<v Speaker 1>President Trump has already made against her crasy you know

0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:03.080
<v Speaker 1>who don't want the empires in digital services tax I

0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:06.400
<v Speaker 1>mean yes, And this the wealth is also being generated

0:13:06.400 --> 0:13:09.080
<v Speaker 1>out of the US. The truth is taxing French people

0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:14.080
<v Speaker 1>would not actually generate wealth from the digital economy that

0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:15.880
<v Speaker 1>is being driven out of the US.

0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:19.200
<v Speaker 2>You have the tax base that we're talking about for

0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:23.360
<v Speaker 2>high wealth individuals who have built their wealth in France

0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:26.920
<v Speaker 2>or in Britain is very very large already. So you know,

0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:29.679
<v Speaker 2>just with the two person tax rate you get quite

0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:32.520
<v Speaker 2>significant tax revinew And this is why you know this

0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:35.640
<v Speaker 2>has been building up in France and why now you know,

0:13:35.679 --> 0:13:39.000
<v Speaker 2>there's ninety person support and opinion polls for this tax.

0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:41.720
<v Speaker 2>By the way, you also have huge popular support in

0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:45.400
<v Speaker 2>the US for a billionaire tax, including among Republican voters.

0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:48.360
<v Speaker 2>So the reason this is happening is just because we

0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:53.959
<v Speaker 2>have a small group of Republican democratically all political and financial.

0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:57.920
<v Speaker 2>But you're in the US, which which really are defending

0:13:58.000 --> 0:14:01.360
<v Speaker 2>you know, their privileges is in effect and their power

0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:04.720
<v Speaker 2>with a lot of energy. This is not the first

0:14:04.720 --> 0:14:07.480
<v Speaker 2>time in history this happens. But you know, the general

0:14:07.520 --> 0:14:09.880
<v Speaker 2>asson from history is that at the end of the day,

0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:15.280
<v Speaker 2>the movement towards you know, more democracy and more equality,

0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:18.280
<v Speaker 2>you know, has been going on for two centuries, and

0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:21.440
<v Speaker 2>it's not going to stop. It's not going to stop

0:14:21.720 --> 0:14:22.080
<v Speaker 2>right now.

0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:25.040
<v Speaker 1>You know, it's going in terms of just very if

0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:28.440
<v Speaker 1>the two percent tax does happen, consequences for the stock

0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:31.200
<v Speaker 1>market in France, for bond investors in France. Do you

0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:33.440
<v Speaker 1>think that it will spook markets? Will it just will

0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:36.520
<v Speaker 1>invest simply swallow it and move forward, or will there

0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:39.480
<v Speaker 1>be instant reaction? That's yeah, a lot of my listens

0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:41.480
<v Speaker 1>are going to be thinking about this there. Investors now

0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:43.320
<v Speaker 1>not you know, in fifty one hundred days time they

0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:45.760
<v Speaker 1>want to that two percent tax comes in. Would it

0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:49.960
<v Speaker 1>have no consequence on French stocks French bonds there.

0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:53.400
<v Speaker 2>You know, this is not a very big challenge as

0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:57.040
<v Speaker 2>compared to the volume of transaction in general. Also, you know, frankly,

0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:01.239
<v Speaker 2>there are so many other factors that affe asset prices.

0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:04.440
<v Speaker 2>So you know, in the long run this is irrelevant

0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:07.240
<v Speaker 2>because there are so many other factors that are more

0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:09.840
<v Speaker 2>important for the prospecty of the economy. You know much

0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:13.840
<v Speaker 2>to invest in education, in infrastructure and your sults, the

0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:16.560
<v Speaker 2>energy crises. You know, this is what dinerment is prospecty

0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:18.680
<v Speaker 2>in the long run. In the short run, you know,

0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:21.720
<v Speaker 2>lots of things can happen. Some people would say, you know,

0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:26.360
<v Speaker 2>asset prices find some housing crisis. Yes, actually too high.

0:15:27.160 --> 0:15:29.560
<v Speaker 2>So many people you know would not complain if they

0:15:29.560 --> 0:15:30.840
<v Speaker 2>were if they were going young.

0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:34.360
<v Speaker 1>Or a lip cent dropping. House prices in France would

0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:35.200
<v Speaker 1>not bother anymore.

0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:37.680
<v Speaker 2>Oh, I think in Paris and London you should go

0:15:37.720 --> 0:15:39.640
<v Speaker 2>down by fifty percent, you know, if you want a

0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:42.680
<v Speaker 2>middle class to be able to find outing. So you know,

0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:45.200
<v Speaker 2>why why why do you have such high housing crises

0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:48.480
<v Speaker 2>in Paris or London. Well, probably because you have too

0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:50.760
<v Speaker 2>many people with too much money that they don't know

0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:52.680
<v Speaker 2>what to do with it, so they just drive up

0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:55.240
<v Speaker 2>the prices too for apartments that they don't even use.

0:15:56.200 --> 0:15:57.760
<v Speaker 2>So you know, if you can, if you can get

0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:00.200
<v Speaker 2>these prices to go down, that's the best policy going

0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:04.360
<v Speaker 2>to do to to to help you know, people, normal

0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:09.400
<v Speaker 2>people access access anything. So you know, don't panic, is

0:16:09.480 --> 0:16:12.920
<v Speaker 2>the general answer. You know, be cool. You know, look,

0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:15.760
<v Speaker 2>you know there's been again. If you look, if I

0:16:16.200 --> 0:16:19.520
<v Speaker 2>look at my you know, dayta in long run perspective,

0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:22.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, the income scale between you know, if I like,

0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:24.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, the top one percent and the bottom ten

0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:27.560
<v Speaker 2>percent was one to one hundred one und years ago.

0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:30.080
<v Speaker 2>It is maybe one to ten today. It has been

0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:33.160
<v Speaker 2>divided by ten. If you had told that to people

0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:35.320
<v Speaker 2>one hundred years ago, because you already had you know,

0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:38.640
<v Speaker 2>business journalism, business people one hundred years ago, if you

0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:40.920
<v Speaker 2>had told them, okay, you're going to have a progressive

0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:43.000
<v Speaker 2>in contact with you know, top tax rate going to

0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:46.840
<v Speaker 2>fifty sixty seventy eighty percent, size of government going from

0:16:46.840 --> 0:16:49.480
<v Speaker 2>ten percent of GDP to forty percent, they would have

0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:52.200
<v Speaker 2>told you one hundred years ago Okay, this is communism.

0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:55.240
<v Speaker 2>The sky is going to fall, the world is going

0:16:55.280 --> 0:16:59.000
<v Speaker 2>to disappear, no economic prosperity anymore. What did we have?

0:16:59.320 --> 0:17:02.880
<v Speaker 2>We had the biggest period of prospecity ever observed in history.

0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:05.520
<v Speaker 1>So they made a lot of perspective.

0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:07.520
<v Speaker 2>Exactly one this kind of statement.

0:17:07.600 --> 0:17:10.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, one last thought. Your ideas, to my mind, confront

0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:14.040
<v Speaker 1>those of something like little mask in the world's richest person,

0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:17.440
<v Speaker 1>with all of his clouds. He wants to influence as

0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:20.200
<v Speaker 1>a billionaire, not just the whole host of businesses, but

0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:24.159
<v Speaker 1>also politics also the way that people think about the world.

0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:26.560
<v Speaker 1>And that is the challenge, isn't it.

0:17:26.520 --> 0:17:28.840
<v Speaker 2>It is how to You know what's interesting is that

0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:32.119
<v Speaker 2>the billionaire class, so to speak, or side a business

0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:35.919
<v Speaker 2>class in general. Now they know that they cannot stay

0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:39.280
<v Speaker 2>in power just by having a pro business discourse because

0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:41.639
<v Speaker 2>in fact, they lose power very soon if they do that.

0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:44.040
<v Speaker 2>So they need to have this sort of very nationalist,

0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:47.359
<v Speaker 2>anti migrant discourse if they want to be in power.

0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:50.080
<v Speaker 2>Look look at and look at you know, the Conservative

0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:52.479
<v Speaker 2>Party today in Britain. If they don't get to do

0:17:52.560 --> 0:17:55.359
<v Speaker 2>something with reform and antimigrant et cetera, it's going to

0:17:55.400 --> 0:17:57.760
<v Speaker 2>be very difficult just on the basis of a pro

0:17:57.920 --> 0:18:01.760
<v Speaker 2>business or probillionaire policy to be elected, just because for

0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:05.240
<v Speaker 2>most people this is not very appealing. So the choice

0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:08.560
<v Speaker 2>is not really between, you know, whether you go for

0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:12.840
<v Speaker 2>the billionaire the most favored policy, or because people just

0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:15.080
<v Speaker 2>don't trant that, the choice is more and more between

0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:21.440
<v Speaker 2>sort of nationalism and more sort of egalitarian universal policy.

0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:25.280
<v Speaker 2>I like to talk about democratic socialism. Some people prefer

0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:28.200
<v Speaker 2>to talk about social democracy for the twenty fifth century.

0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:30.600
<v Speaker 2>You know, that's fine with me, as long as we're

0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:33.040
<v Speaker 2>talking about the same thing. Is this going to be

0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:37.200
<v Speaker 2>an easy fight? No, because I think the nationalist discourse

0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:39.560
<v Speaker 2>has a lot of strength also in a way, because

0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:42.600
<v Speaker 2>this is telling people, look, we don't need this being

0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:46.720
<v Speaker 2>complicated international coalition. We don't you know, we just need

0:18:46.760 --> 0:18:51.120
<v Speaker 2>to eat the migrants, to eat the foreigners, to say

0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:53.240
<v Speaker 2>that we are the best in the world. And you know,

0:18:53.240 --> 0:18:55.320
<v Speaker 2>if you are a power food state, particularly in the

0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:58.280
<v Speaker 2>United States, but to a lesser extend the British state

0:18:58.440 --> 0:18:59.919
<v Speaker 2>or the French type, you know, you can sort of

0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:04.399
<v Speaker 2>have the illusion that this nationalist discourse is going to

0:19:04.440 --> 0:19:07.520
<v Speaker 2>get you somewhere. The reality is that it's not going

0:19:07.520 --> 0:19:10.320
<v Speaker 2>to get you anywhere. It's the long brand is just

0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:12.399
<v Speaker 2>not going to solve any of the problems. You know,

0:19:12.760 --> 0:19:15.119
<v Speaker 2>is that going to solve the climate problem in the US.

0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:18.399
<v Speaker 2>Is this going to solve the education problem? The housing problem?

0:19:19.200 --> 0:19:22.159
<v Speaker 2>Is not going to solve any problem. So I'm not

0:19:22.200 --> 0:19:25.440
<v Speaker 2>saying the fight is going to be easy. It's going

0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:28.080
<v Speaker 2>to be complicated. It's always been complicated. You know, every

0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:31.000
<v Speaker 2>political fight in the past which has driven us to

0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:34.720
<v Speaker 2>a more equal world has been very complicated. You know,

0:19:34.840 --> 0:19:38.400
<v Speaker 2>the creation of National Health Service in Britain nineteen forty five.

0:19:38.440 --> 0:19:40.760
<v Speaker 2>You know, you would have told that to people thirty

0:19:40.840 --> 0:19:43.400
<v Speaker 2>years before, fourt years before. They will have told you now,

0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:46.879
<v Speaker 2>the end of the House of Lord budgetary power in

0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:50.360
<v Speaker 2>nineteen teny we have told that forty years before. Noway,

0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:54.600
<v Speaker 2>it's always been complicated. But what are the alternatives? You know,

0:19:54.680 --> 0:19:57.879
<v Speaker 2>the nationalist rhetoric that's not going to solve any of

0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:01.640
<v Speaker 2>the social problems that the they pretend that they pretend

0:20:01.760 --> 0:20:05.919
<v Speaker 2>they willsle But this is a big fight. But the

0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:09.480
<v Speaker 2>billionaire class, you know, why have they all become so reactionary,

0:20:09.600 --> 0:20:13.040
<v Speaker 2>you know Trump because they know that the pure pro

0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:17.240
<v Speaker 2>business discourse, you know, the actually cannot win, so they

0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:20.119
<v Speaker 2>have to find something else, and this something else is

0:20:20.160 --> 0:20:24.720
<v Speaker 2>quite ugly. Unfortunately, sometimes it's working. In the long run,

0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:25.840
<v Speaker 2>it's not going to be working