1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:05,720 Speaker 1: M. What you're dealing with, especially with ger Sticker, is 2 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:11,240 Speaker 1: a young man who is really really influenced by romanticism, 3 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 1: the sort of dark unknown out there. This week on 4 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,960 Speaker 1: the Bear Grease Podcasts, we're going to explore the tragic 5 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: death of a bear hunter and hear the account firsthand 6 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: from the guide that was standing there when it happened. 7 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: Then we're going to search for his hundred and eighty 8 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: year old grave. In the process will look into the 9 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: adventurous life of the comrade of the deceased, Frederick Gerstalker. 10 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,200 Speaker 1: We're gonna talk with the national expert on the Ozark region, 11 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 1: and we'll hear from the man who held one of 12 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: the keys in trying to find the old grave, and 13 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: then we'll go on a search for the grave ourselves. 14 00:00:55,200 --> 00:01:07,320 Speaker 1: You're not gonna want to miss this one. M. My 15 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 1: name is Clay Nukelem, and this is the Bear Grease 16 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: Podcast where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant, search for 17 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: insight and unlikely places, and where we'll tell the story 18 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: of Americans who lived their lives close to the land. 19 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: I want to tell you a story, or really I 20 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 1: want the story to tell itself. If we think about 21 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: the now of time as the front edge of a 22 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: wave that we're writing Like a surfer. We can't get 23 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: back anything that's behind us. The wave no longer exists. 24 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: All we have is the remembrance of the imagery sight, 25 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: sounds in the context of the moment on the waves 26 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: stored in our giant human brain. But humans don't just 27 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 1: have brains. I'm quite certain that we have spirits which 28 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: also collect data that informs us of a deeper and 29 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 1: more meaningful connection to the events of our lives and 30 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 1: the lives of others. But it's more than just stored 31 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: data like temperature or the color of the sky or 32 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 1: what was said. The spirit can see the thing behind 33 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: the thing. Spirits are made of flesh and bone, and 34 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: you can't find it like an organ in the body. 35 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: But the spirit is the conduit that connects our lives 36 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:37,799 Speaker 1: to something much bigger. It's what makes our lives more 37 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 1: than just a biological record of a human eating and 38 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:45,359 Speaker 1: drinking and producing offspring. The spirit is what makes us human. 39 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:51,079 Speaker 1: There's some stories that just impact us in more significant 40 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 1: ways than others. The story you're about to hear for 41 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 1: me is one of those stories that has shaped my 42 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 1: life in a significant way, and it's hard for me 43 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: to even explain why. The question I'm trying to answer 44 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: is this, What is the mechanism that can make someone 45 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 1: else's story so meaningful in our lives. When I was 46 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: in college, I had a professor that knew I was 47 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 1: interested in Arkansas black bears in passing. One day, he 48 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: suggested I read a book called Wild Sports by Frederick Gerstacker. 49 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:30,920 Speaker 1: His sales pitch was weak. It's about an old German 50 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: guy that has some Arkansas bear hunting stories in it. 51 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: He said. The pitch was so weak that it would 52 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: be five years before I had ever read the book. 53 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess I can't blame him for poor marketing, 54 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: but I thought, what's a German guy got to do 55 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: with Arkansas bear hunting? When I finally read the pages 56 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 1: of the book, I was mesmerized by the words of 57 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: the adventurous young German. I was mesmerized by his life. 58 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: He was witty, he was an incredible right, he was 59 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 1: tough as alligator leather, and fearless, and maybe most of all, 60 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: much of his adventure took place within twenty miles of 61 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: where I live. But even more, he was insightful into 62 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 1: human life. He valued people, and he even recognized the 63 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 1: wasteful and unsustainable ways of the market hunting culture of 64 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: his time, of which he even participated in. Frederick Gerstoker. 65 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:34,159 Speaker 1: Some people say gersh Sticker was a well educated, middle 66 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 1: class German that came to the United States in search 67 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: of white tailed deer and black bear. Doesn't sound like 68 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: that bad of a guy. He came over on a 69 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: ship called the Constitution and arrived in New York and 70 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 1: July eighteen thirty seven. He embarked on a six year 71 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: long adventure that would take him through seven states and 72 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 1: one Canadian province. He kept detailed journals of his writing, 73 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 1: and at times he would send him back to his 74 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: mom in Germany. Six years later in eighteen forty three, 75 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: when he arrived back in Germany, he found himself an 76 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 1: acclaimed writer and national hero. His mother had been submitting 77 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 1: his articles to a local German publication. In the word 78 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: of his adventures spread like wildfire. There are too many 79 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 1: of ger Stalker's incredible stories to tell on this podcast, 80 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: but I want to tell you one that cut me 81 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: to the quick when I first read it. It involved 82 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 1: a man being killed by a bear in a Creek 83 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 1: drainage less than twenty miles from where I live. I 84 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,919 Speaker 1: was shocked and slightly offended that nobody ever told me 85 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: this story. I want you to hear the first hand 86 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 1: account from Gerstalker of the death of his friend Erskine. 87 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: This is an excerpt from the book Wild Sports, published 88 00:05:55,360 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: in eighteen fifty four. This story is taken out of context, 89 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: so there are some characters you'll need to know. Conwell 90 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:11,280 Speaker 1: as Gerstalker's older American hunting partner and friend with hair 91 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: as white as snow, he said. Conwell lived in Arkansas. 92 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: Wachiga is a Cherokee that became a trusted friend and 93 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:23,599 Speaker 1: hunting partner of ger Stalker. And you'll be introduced to 94 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 1: young Erskine, who Gerstalker had met some years before in 95 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:35,279 Speaker 1: the back country. So we were off again before noon 96 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 1: and gained the source of the hurricane. Rode across the 97 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 1: devil's stepping path, a narrow rock with a precipice on 98 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 1: each side, left the pilot rock on our left, and 99 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 1: came towards evening into the pine forest, where we were 100 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:53,600 Speaker 1: sure of finding kindlers. Descending the steep side of a mountain, 101 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: we observed a thin column of blue smoke by the 102 00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 1: side of the stream, showing that some hunters were in 103 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 1: camp there. We went straight towards it and found it 104 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: to be an Indian camp, and our former acquaintance, young Erskine, 105 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 1: among them there were Cherokees with three young choptaws, these 106 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: two tribes being on good terms like ourselves, they were 107 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 1: out bear hunting, but it had better luck. A quantity 108 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: of bear meat was hanging about the camp, and even 109 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 1: the dogs would eat no more. Casting ourselves down by 110 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: the fire, one of the squalls, for there were several 111 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: women in the camp, immediately cooked for us some bear, 112 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: which we duly regaled ourselves. M Night came on, and 113 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 1: soon we were all sunk in deep repose. Early in 114 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: the morning we began to move, dividing into two parties 115 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 1: for the better chance of finding game. Conwell went with 116 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: some of the Indians, amongst whom he had found an 117 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 1: old acquaintance, to make a circuit around the Pilot Rock, 118 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: while Erskine and I, with three Cherokees, proceeded to the 119 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: sources of the Frog Bayou. Night found us far from 120 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 1: our camp, so we made one for ourselves. Where we 121 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 1: were on the morning of February one. We had hardly 122 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: started ere we heard the dogs, which he could, declared 123 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: instantly that they were his brothers, and disappeared behind the 124 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 1: rocks without another word. As we stood listening, the sound 125 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: seemed to take a different direction. We ascended the mountain 126 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: as fast as we could to cut off the chase, 127 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: but found that we must have been mistaken, for in 128 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: a few minutes all was as silent as a grave. 129 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: Once we thought we heard a shot, but we couldn't 130 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 1: be certain. We ascended to the highest terrace and walked 131 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 1: slowly on, looking out for fresh signs, and listening to 132 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 1: catch the sound of the dog below. Amongst the broken 133 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 1: masses of rock, they might be near without being heard. 134 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 1: Along the mountaintops, they're audible at a great distance. It 135 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 1: may have been too in the afternoon, and we had 136 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: seen nothing when bears Grease raised his nose in the air, 137 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:57,839 Speaker 1: remained for an instant or two in a fixed position, then, 138 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 1: given a short smothered how rashed down the mountain side. 139 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 1: Listening attentively, we heard the chase coming down the Hurricane river. 140 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: Erskine called out triumphantly, we shall have plenty of bear 141 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 1: this evening, and dashed after the dog. I was soon 142 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:15,840 Speaker 1: by his side. I must observe by the way that 143 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 1: we were both very hungry. Presently, a bear broke through 144 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 1: the bushes of projecting rocks, stopped him for an instant. 145 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: When Erskine saluted him with a ball, he received mine. 146 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: As he rushed past and disappeared. The dogs, encouraged to 147 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: greater efforts by our shots and the stronger scent, followed 148 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 1: him out bears Greece, who was quite fresh leading the van. 149 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 1: Soon they came upon him and stopped him. We rushed 150 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 1: to the spot, without waiting to reload, and arriving in 151 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 1: time to see the beast, excited to the greatest fury, 152 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 1: kill four of our best dogs with as many blows 153 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: of his paws. But the others threw themselves on him 154 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 1: with greater animosity, and if our rifles had been loaded, 155 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: we could not have used them. Just as a large, 156 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,599 Speaker 1: powerful brown dog, which had curiously attacked the bear, was 157 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: knocked over, bleeding and howling. Erskine called out, oh, save 158 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: the dogs, threw down his rifle and rushed on with 159 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 1: his knife among the furious group. I followed on the 160 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 1: instant when the bear sauce coming, he exerted still more 161 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 1: force to beat off the dogs and meet us. Seizing 162 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 1: his opportunity, my comrade ran his steel into his side. 163 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: The bear turned on him like lightning and seized him, 164 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: and he uttered a shrill, piercing shriek. Driven to desperation 165 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 1: by the sight, I plunged my knife three times into 166 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 1: the monster's body with all my force, without thinking of 167 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: jumping back. At the third thrust, the bear turned upon me. 168 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: Seeing as Paul coming, I attempted to evade the blow, 169 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 1: felt a sharp pang and sunk senseless to the ground. 170 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 1: When I recovered my senses, bears grease was licking the 171 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: blood from my face. On attempting to rise, I felt 172 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: a severe pain in my left side and was unable 173 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 1: to move my left arm. On making a fresh effort 174 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 1: to rise, I succeeded in sitting up. The bear was 175 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 1: close to me, in less than three ft from him, 176 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: lay erskine, stiff, and cold. I sprang up with a 177 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:20,320 Speaker 1: cry of horror and rushed towards him. It was too true. 178 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 1: He was bathed in blood, his face torn to pieces, 179 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 1: his right shoulder almost wrenched away from his body, and 180 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 1: five of the best dogs ripped up with broken limbs 181 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: lying beside him. The bear was so covered with blood 182 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: that his color was hardly discernible. My left arm appeared 183 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 1: to be out of socket, but I could feel that 184 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 1: no bones were broken. The sun had gone down, and 185 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 1: I had hoped that the other hunters might have heard 186 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 1: our shots and the barking and howling to the dogs. 187 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 1: It grew dark. No one came. I roared and shouted 188 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:57,959 Speaker 1: like mad, but no one heard me. I tried to 189 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 1: light a fire, but my left arm was so well 190 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 1: that I gave up the attempt. But as it would 191 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: have been certain death to pass the night under these 192 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: circumstances without a fire, I tore away part of the 193 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: back of my hunting shirt, and the fore part, being 194 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: saturated with blood, sprinkled some powder on it, rubbed it well, 195 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 1: and with my right hand I shook a little powder 196 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: into my rifle. Placing the muzzle on the rag, I fired, 197 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: blowing it up to a flame. I piled on dry 198 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: leaves and twigs and succeeded in making a good fire, 199 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 1: though with great pain and trouble. Now it was dark, 200 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 1: I went to my dead comrade, who was lying about 201 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 1: five yards from the fire. He was already stiff, and 202 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: it was with great difficulty that I could pull down 203 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: his arms and lay him straight, Nor could I keep 204 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 1: his eyes closed, though I laid small stones on them. 205 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:51,680 Speaker 1: The dogs were very hungry, but it was impossible for 206 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 1: me to break up the bear only ripped him up 207 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 1: and fed them with his entrals. Bearscreached, laid himself down 208 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 1: by the corpse, looking steadfastly in his face, and went 209 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: no more near the bear, and hoping of obtaining help, 210 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:11,079 Speaker 1: I loaded and fired twice, but nothing moved. The forest 211 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:19,679 Speaker 1: appeared one enormous grave. I felt very ill, vomited several 212 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 1: times as well as I could. I laid myself down 213 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:26,679 Speaker 1: beside the fire, and lost all consciousness of my wretched situation. 214 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 1: Whether I slept or fainted is more than I can tell, 215 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:32,199 Speaker 1: But I know that I dreamed that I was at 216 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 1: home in my bed, and my mother brought me some 217 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: tea and laid her hand on my breast. Such an 218 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: awakening as I had, was worse than I could wish 219 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 1: to my bitterest enemy. Bears greased had pressed close to 220 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:51,439 Speaker 1: my side, lying his head on my breast. The fire 221 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 1: was almost out, and I was shivering with cold, and 222 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 1: the wolves were hollowing fearfully around the dead, keeping at 223 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 1: a distance for fear of the living, but by no 224 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 1: means disposed to lose their prey. I rose with difficulty 225 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:07,680 Speaker 1: and laid more wood on the fire. As it burned up, 226 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: the face of the corpse seemed to brighten. I started, 227 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: but found it was only an optical delusion. Louder and 228 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 1: fiercer howled the wolves and the dogs, of whom five 229 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: were alive besides Bear. Grease answered them, but the answer 230 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: was by no means one of defiance, rather a lament 231 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: for the dead, partly to scare away the wolves, and 232 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: partly in the hope of finding help. I loaded and 233 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: fired three times. My delight was inexpressible. As I heard 234 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: three shots in return. I loaded and fired until all 235 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: my powder was expended. As morning broke, I heard two 236 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 1: shots not far off, and soon after a third. A 237 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 1: shipwrecked mariner hanging to the side of a plank could 238 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: not raise his voice more lustily to hail a passing 239 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 1: ship than I did, And joy upon joy, I heard 240 00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 1: a human voice, and answer the bark of the dogs. 241 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: And now to stranger and what Chiga advanced out of 242 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: the bush while he exclaimed. Staring at the shocking spectacle, 243 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: he felt poor erskine and shook his head mournfully. He 244 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 1: turned to me. I showed him my swollen arm, which 245 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: he examined attentively, without speaking, Forming a hollow with his 246 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 1: two hands and placing them to his lips, he gave 247 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 1: a loud, piercing shout. The answer came from no great distance, 248 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: and in a few minutes my old dear friend Conwell 249 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 1: and most of the Indians were at my side. I 250 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: grasped Conwell's hands sorrowfully and told him in few words 251 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: how it all had happened. The old man scolded and 252 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 1: said it served us right. There's no greater danger and 253 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: sticking a knife into a bear's paunch when he's fallen 254 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: with the dogs upon him. But if he has been 255 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: thrown and then catches the sight of his greatest enemy man, 256 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: he exerts all his force to attack him, and woe 257 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 1: to him who comes within reach of his paws. It 258 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: was all very well talking. He had not been present 259 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: and seen one dog after another knocked over, never to 260 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: rise again five minutes more, and not one would have 261 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: been saved. And who knows whether the enraged beasts would 262 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 1: not have attacked us. Then. Meanwhile, the Indians had been 263 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 1: digging a grave with their tomahawks, wrapping the body in 264 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 1: a blanket. They laid him in it and covered him 265 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: with earth and heavy stones. Conwell cut down some young 266 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 1: stems and made a fence around the solitary grave. I 267 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 1: could not avoid a shudder at the quiet coolness of 268 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: the whole proceeding, as the thought struck me that the 269 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: same persons, under the same circumstances would have treated me 270 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: in the same cool way had I fallen instead of Erskine. 271 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: Like me, he was a lonely stranger in a foreign land, 272 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 1: having left England some years before, and his friends and 273 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: relations will probably never know what became of him. Thousands 274 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: perish in this way in America, of whom nothing more 275 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 1: is heard, and perhaps in a few months the remembrance 276 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 1: of them was entirely passed away. After the dead was 277 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 1: quietly laid in the grave, Chiga came with an elderly 278 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 1: Indian to look at my arm. Chiga moved it while 279 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: the other looked steadfastly in my face. The pain was 280 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: enough to drive me mad, but I would not utter 281 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 1: a sound. Next, the Indian took hold of my arm, 282 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 1: laying his left hand on my shoulder, and while Chia 283 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 1: suddenly seized me around the body from behind, the other 284 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:32,159 Speaker 1: pulled with all his force. The pain at first was 285 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: so great that I almost feigned, but it gradually diminished. 286 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 1: In spite of my resolve to show no signs of it, 287 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:43,160 Speaker 1: I could not suppress a shriek. Conwell soon after asked 288 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 1: if I could ride on my answering yes, he helped 289 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:49,159 Speaker 1: me on a horse. Then, throwing the bear's skin and 290 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 1: some of the meat on his own, we moved slowly homewards. 291 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:56,159 Speaker 1: My sufferings on the way were very great, but I 292 00:17:56,240 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 1: uttered no murmur. I only longed for pose. This was 293 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 1: just a couple of pages out of a four hundred 294 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: page book, but I want to take some inventory of 295 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 1: the components of this story. A German, a British guy 296 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 1: and an American hunting with a mixed tribe of Native Americans, 297 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 1: Cherokees and Choctaws in the eighteen forties. They were bear 298 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:29,440 Speaker 1: hunting with dogs, the Native Americans dogs to be exact 299 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: for black bear. In the month of February in the 300 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 1: Ozarks of Arkansas, an incredible bear chase ensues and a 301 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 1: man who we only know his first name, Erskine, dies 302 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: at the hand of a bear after stabbing it with 303 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: his bowie knife. They didn't have time to reload. His 304 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:50,880 Speaker 1: comrade charges in and kills the bear with a knife 305 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 1: and in the process gets smacked so hard it dislocates 306 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 1: his shoulder and knocks him out. Girl Stalker spends the 307 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:01,439 Speaker 1: night with an arm's reach of a day bear, five 308 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:06,639 Speaker 1: dead dogs, and Erskine's corpse. Gray wolves which used to 309 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 1: be in Arkansas, kept him awake, howling through the night. 310 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: He laid stones on the eyelids of the corpse to 311 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 1: keep his eyes shut. The next morning, he's found by 312 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: the hunting party and the natives set his shoulder into 313 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 1: place and buried the dead in the shallow grave dug 314 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: with tomahawks. They throw the bear meat and the hide 315 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: over the back of a good horse and head home. 316 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: End of story. Now you know the story of Erskine's death, 317 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 1: and you've seen a bit into the life of Gerstalker. 318 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: But we need to know more information to understand the 319 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 1: significance of this wild story. And I'm still wondering why 320 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 1: and how this short snippet of time just a little 321 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 1: part of somebody else's wave has impacted me the way 322 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 1: it has. As I sit down with Dr Brooks Blevins, 323 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:14,680 Speaker 1: He's wearing a black suit and a pink tie. He's 324 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,200 Speaker 1: all dressed up because he was just on the documentary 325 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:21,160 Speaker 1: for TV talking about the backwoods of the Ozarks. He's 326 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 1: an in demand guy, you see. Dr Blevins is a 327 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:28,920 Speaker 1: professor at Missouri State University, and he is the Jedi 328 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:32,360 Speaker 1: Master of Ozark history and probably one of the coolest 329 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 1: guys I've met in a long time. He drives a 330 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:38,199 Speaker 1: mid nineteen nineties Sedan with duct tape on one of 331 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:42,200 Speaker 1: the side mirrors, and he's written over fifteen incredible books 332 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,919 Speaker 1: about the Ozark region. I wanted to get some context 333 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 1: from Dr Blevins about the time period that Gerstalker was here. 334 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 1: Context is king. So, Dr Blevins, Gerstalker was in the 335 00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 1: Ozarks and Washingtas from eighteen thirty seven to eighteen four 336 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 1: prety three. What can you tell us just about that 337 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: general era, who was here and kind of what life 338 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:09,439 Speaker 1: was like. Well, first of all, in Arkansas, this is 339 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 1: right after Arkansas becomes a state in eighteen thirty six. 340 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,719 Speaker 1: One of the things that that we would immediately notice 341 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 1: is how few people there were. You know, there were 342 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 1: You're talking about fewer than a hundred thousand people in 343 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:26,120 Speaker 1: the entire state. The Washingtalls and the Ozarks especially would 344 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 1: have been very very thinly populated. And of course that's 345 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 1: why he's there. He's he's there to find animals, not 346 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 1: not people. You're talking about sparse population. You're talking about 347 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 1: a population of people who have mainly come from the 348 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 1: upper south east of the Mississippi. So you've got lots 349 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:48,920 Speaker 1: of tennessee Ins who are here. You got Carolinians, people 350 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,879 Speaker 1: from Virginia, Kentucky. Those are the people who are for 351 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,440 Speaker 1: the most part coming to the Ozarks and Washingtalls. And 352 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: a lot of these people are gonna have backgrounds in 353 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,119 Speaker 1: in hunting of various kinds, and in a lot of 354 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 1: cases that's why they're out here in the first place. 355 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 1: You know, they've kind of exhausted their hunting grounds back 356 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 1: east and they're just kept moving west. A lot of 357 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: people come because they want to hunt, especially if they 358 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: want to hunt commercially. You know, the commercial hunting was 359 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: pretty much a dead letter by the eighteen thirties and 360 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,680 Speaker 1: forties back east of the Mississippi. And if you were 361 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 1: interested in making a living selling skins and and bear 362 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: grease and and meat and stuff like that, you had 363 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,640 Speaker 1: to go to the to the edge. This would have been, 364 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:41,159 Speaker 1: during that time considered part of the western edge of 365 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,160 Speaker 1: the frontier. Really, oh yeah, I mean, so we don't 366 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 1: think of Arkansas being the frontier or the west, but 367 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:52,719 Speaker 1: this was like far west. So yeah, the uh, the 368 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 1: Washingtons and the Ozarks, Arkansas, they're all the edge of 369 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 1: the edge of American civilization. Gerstalker seemed to have the 370 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 1: intent of coming from Germany to hunt in America. Was 371 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 1: that common? I mean? And I guess my question is 372 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: what was the reputation of the American frontier on the 373 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:21,399 Speaker 1: global stage. I think, well, I guess it depends on 374 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 1: how you defined common, But I would say it certainly 375 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: wasn't uncommon for Europeans who had the means and the 376 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,399 Speaker 1: interest to come to the United States, and especially the 377 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 1: western part of the United States and hunt. I mean, 378 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 1: we see that happening even after the Civil War, where 379 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 1: you have European buffalo hunters come over. For instance, would 380 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:45,639 Speaker 1: they have heard of Daniel Boone? By that, I mean 381 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 1: Daniel Boone would have already been dead for twenty years 382 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 1: or so. I mean, would they have heard of Daniel 383 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,360 Speaker 1: Boone globally by that? Yeah? I think. I think Well, 384 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,879 Speaker 1: if you were well read, like GERSH. Dicker obviously was, 385 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: if you were an educated person and you were interested 386 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 1: in the exotic, you know, American frontier, as these guys 387 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,920 Speaker 1: obviously were, you would have been well versed in Daniel 388 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,119 Speaker 1: Boone stuff. But as we know that as late as 389 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,640 Speaker 1: eighteen eleven, so we're talking about roughly a quarter century 390 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:19,439 Speaker 1: before ger Sticker shows up, Daniel Boone had done a 391 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: long hunt in the Ozarks. A long hunt is a 392 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,440 Speaker 1: description of the style of hunting. It may be intuitive, 393 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,119 Speaker 1: but it wasn't to me. It was a term used 394 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: from the mid seventeen hundreds through the mid eighteen hundreds. 395 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 1: That simply means dudes went hunting for long periods of time, 396 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: like six months up to a couple of years. But 397 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 1: what you're dealing with, especially with ger Sticker, is a 398 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 1: young man who is really really influenced by Romanticism and 399 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 1: everything that mean. And I'm not talking about you know, 400 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 1: Valentine's Day and kissy stuff. We're talking about the sort 401 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 1: of dark unknown out there that that that calls to people, 402 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 1: especially young men, who want to go out and explore 403 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 1: and see what's out there. And that romanticism would have 404 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 1: been like portraying something as just like amazing and mystical 405 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,120 Speaker 1: and like looking at the positives and something that actually 406 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: may not have been very positive. Like he he he 407 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 1: romanticized about the West and about hunting. And you can 408 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 1: tell that, you know, uh, one of the things that uh, 409 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: that I did in in my book Arkansas, Arkansas as 410 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 1: I as I contrasted the romantic thinkers and what I 411 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 1: call the Enlightenment thinkers. And and that's a good point. 412 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:44,680 Speaker 1: What what ger Shticker saw as romantic and positive and 413 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 1: earlier traveler like say Henry Roe Schoolcraft, who came through 414 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: roughly twenty years before Gersticker did. Schoolcraft would have found 415 00:25:53,119 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 1: repulsive and uncivilized. And he couldn't wait to get back, right, 416 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 1: I mean, he he really couldn't wait to get back 417 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:07,119 Speaker 1: to the Hudson River Valley and to civilization. But they 418 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 1: were both educated young men, but one just had a 419 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,200 Speaker 1: different outlook on on live. I mean, he had chosen 420 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:17,200 Speaker 1: to come here, you know, thinking about the reputation of 421 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 1: the American frontier, like what Gerstalker would have maybe heard 422 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 1: and seen back in his home in Germany. It's it's 423 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:28,119 Speaker 1: hard to imagine a section of a massive continent that 424 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 1: would just be unknown, like we we don't live inside 425 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,879 Speaker 1: of that paradigm any longer. Like the Earth has been explored. 426 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 1: There's there's micro cosms that hold mystery today. But this 427 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: was like massive mystery and intrigue of the West and 428 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 1: the in the in the even the animals. I mean 429 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,880 Speaker 1: like they were introducing animals to these people that they 430 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,639 Speaker 1: had never heard of before. I mean bison and elk 431 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 1: and in in black bears. They didn't have black bears 432 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 1: in Germany, they would have had brown bears. It's hard 433 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: for me to imagine. I can see the draw. I 434 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,640 Speaker 1: can imagine the draw to the American West. I mean 435 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 1: it would have just been this like mythical place. And 436 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 1: now what we see inside the book, and what gir 437 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:14,680 Speaker 1: gir Stalker does such a great job of showing, is 438 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 1: how difficult it was. I mean, what I came out 439 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:21,879 Speaker 1: of this book understanding and having respect for him was 440 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 1: just and these people was just their resilience and their 441 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:30,680 Speaker 1: just ability to persist through hardship and there. They didn't 442 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 1: know any better. I mean, they didn't they didn't know 443 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 1: any different. They didn't know the comforts that we have 444 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 1: today that they could have compared with. So, I mean, 445 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 1: you would assume, and you would hope that the resiliency 446 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: and internal strength and physical strength of us today would 447 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: have been comparable to them. But it's hard to make 448 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:50,199 Speaker 1: that jump. Like I'm I'm a hunter, and when I 449 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 1: hear these stories of Girl Stalker and Erskine, I just 450 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 1: think I couldn't have done it. But there's this hope 451 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 1: inside of me, Dr Blevin's that if I didn't know 452 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: any different, that I would have been able to do it, 453 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,439 Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. Yeah, I know exactly what 454 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: you're saying. And and the the amazing thing about Girl 455 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: Shticker is to a certain degree he did no different. 456 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 1: You know, he did grow up in a in a 457 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 1: middle class and in as civilized and modern a place 458 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 1: as you could have grown in the world. And yeah, 459 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: that's right on planet Earth. So the Ozarks became nationally 460 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 1: known during that time period for bear hunting. How did 461 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 1: that happen? Well, part of it is that there was 462 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,119 Speaker 1: a basis in fact for all of the legends. I 463 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,679 Speaker 1: mean that this really was and you you find this 464 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 1: not only from girl Shticker who gets here relatively late, 465 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 1: but earlier explorers who talked about the wealth of wildlife 466 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: in this place. The Ozarks and the Washingtons were in 467 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 1: the in the middle part of the continent. They were 468 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 1: this just sort of promised land of of of wildlife 469 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: by the late seventeen hundreds and early eighteen hundreds. Part 470 00:28:55,640 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 1: of that because the Ozarks especially had been uninhabited. It 471 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: had been the hunting ground of the O Sage for 472 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: a century or more by the time the first European 473 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 1: settlers got here. But they really didn't live here. They 474 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 1: didn't they didn't leave a really big footprint on on 475 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 1: the area. So there was just this abundance of wildlife 476 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: of bears, deer, elks, buffalo, you know, you just name it, 477 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 1: and and they found everything here. What Dr Blebens is 478 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 1: describing may need a little explanation. We often have this 479 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 1: idea that Native Americans had permanent settlements and regions for 480 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 1: thousands of years without interruption. However, the archaeological records shows 481 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 1: something different. Paleo Indians arrived in the Ozarks about twelve 482 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 1: thousand years ago and used bluffs for shelter, and they 483 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 1: left a lot of artifacts. They lived here in very 484 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 1: small numbers for thousands of years, but the last one 485 00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 1: thousand years it's less certain who was here and for 486 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 1: how long. It's believed that the Ozarks was only used 487 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 1: as a seasonal hunting ground for the Osage tribe, meaning 488 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 1: there would be long stretches of time where there were 489 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 1: no humans here. Just think about that for a minute. 490 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 1: When the French arrived in the Ozarks in the seventeen hundreds, 491 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: they found the place almost entirely devoid of permanent Native 492 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 1: American settlements. What starts happening is by the late seventeen hundreds, 493 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 1: the o Sage, to a lesser degree, the Cherokee, who 494 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 1: are starting to come in, and the Choctaw and some 495 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 1: of the other groups start to convert from their traditional 496 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: lifestyles to market hunting. And when they do that, you 497 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 1: really start to see the wildlife numbers start to go down. 498 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 1: And then when you add to that all of these 499 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: white market hunters who start coming into the region in 500 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 1: the early eighteen hundreds. Henry row Schoolcraft, in his first 501 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 1: book about the Ozarks, mentions that just in the White 502 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 1: River Watershed. He estimated there were between a thousand and 503 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: fifteen hundred full time market hunters in in eighteen nineteen 504 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: uh and And you can imagine the destructive capabilities to 505 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: the wildlife populations that that many hunters, combined with Native 506 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: Americans who had who had made the switch over. And 507 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: so you've got bales and bales of pelts and hides 508 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 1: coming into St. Louis and and Memphis and these other cities. 509 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 1: By the time schoolcraft comes, bear hunting is just starting 510 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: to be the big thing. It's the next big thing. 511 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 1: Ger Stecker really comes in at the end of that, 512 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: at the end of the commercial bear hunting age. He's 513 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 1: he his timing was just right, that he didn't miss it, 514 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:55,840 Speaker 1: and he even noted he even mentions this, he he 515 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 1: realizes that this is coming to an end, that that 516 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 1: these destructive of practices of these hunters was quickly bringing 517 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 1: an end to this what once had been a wonderland 518 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: of wildlife. He was he was noted and he's noted 519 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: today of having foresight and and having kind of a 520 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 1: conservation mindset, even though he participated in it. You see 521 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 1: Inklands in his writing that he recognized that this wasn't 522 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 1: sustainable and it wasn't good for his time. That was 523 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 1: kind of progressive thinking, which is noteworthy of him. Yeah, 524 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 1: that's right. Girl Stalker's main dog that he had his 525 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 1: whole time in Arkansas was named bears grease. Can you 526 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 1: talk to me about bear grease and its importance in 527 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: the region. Bear grease was it was part of that market. Uh, 528 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 1: it was even in eighteen nineteen when Schoolcraft first gives 529 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 1: us some numbers. He even tells us what the price 530 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 1: of a bear high. It's well, I think it was. 531 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 1: It was a buck fifty at that time. He talks 532 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 1: about the price of bear meat. That bear meat was 533 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 1: was highly valued. It was, it was the most expensive 534 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 1: meat in the area. But also bear grease was it 535 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 1: was used for. Uh. It could be used as actual 536 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 1: cooking grease. And bear grease is the rendered fat of 537 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 1: a bear. Yeah, it's bear fat. It's cooked down then 538 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 1: turned into liquid oil. It could be used actually for 539 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 1: cooking oil. But it was often used as well for 540 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 1: candle making. And but it became one of the one 541 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 1: of the really valuable products of the bear hunting process. 542 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 1: There was a at one point in the eighteen thirties 543 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 1: we know that there was a bear oil rendering plant 544 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 1: that was established at the mouth of Bear Creek near 545 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: the Arkansas Missouri line. It would have been probably I 546 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:01,920 Speaker 1: think it would have been a Boone count modern day 547 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 1: Boone County, Arkansas. But we know there was a rendering 548 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:10,960 Speaker 1: plant there that, by some accounts employed several dozen people 549 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:15,959 Speaker 1: down to New Orleans. That's right, Yeah, they would ship 550 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 1: them to New Orleans and that was a big thing. 551 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:20,880 Speaker 1: Why do you think he would have named his dog that? Like, 552 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 1: does that tell us anything? Because it it's like, you know, 553 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,319 Speaker 1: there's certain things inside of society and we do it 554 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:30,360 Speaker 1: today that has like a metaphorical meaning. What was he 555 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:32,880 Speaker 1: alluding to? You think it could have It could have 556 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 1: just been a something that I mean, the word itself 557 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 1: for a German could have just sounded very American or something. 558 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 1: I'm not really sure. I mean, obviously it would have 559 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 1: been symbolic for him, as a guy who aspired to 560 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:49,800 Speaker 1: be a bear hunter to have a dog named bears Grease, 561 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,400 Speaker 1: but it could also reflect how valuable the dog was 562 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:57,440 Speaker 1: to him. It was as valuable as Greece. I mean, 563 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 1: and we know, I mean, we know not just from GERSH. Decker, 564 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 1: but all kinds of bear hunter stories that there was 565 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 1: nothing more valuable to a hunter than a good dog. 566 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:09,279 Speaker 1: I mean, if it could mean the difference between life 567 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:13,279 Speaker 1: and death. If you if you remember, the most emotional 568 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:17,440 Speaker 1: that the German Gersh Decker ever gets in his book 569 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:19,360 Speaker 1: is when he has to say bye to his dog 570 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 1: and he tears up. You know, he has to turn 571 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 1: away so bears Greece won't see him crying. I heard 572 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 1: you one time say that bear hunters were the rock 573 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:33,800 Speaker 1: stars of the Antebellum South. Can you can you describe 574 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:38,120 Speaker 1: what you meant by that? Because I like it? What 575 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:42,400 Speaker 1: is the Antebellum South? Can you tell me the word 576 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:47,200 Speaker 1: antebellum means before the war. Human history is so wrought 577 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,920 Speaker 1: with war that we have an English word that generically 578 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 1: means the time before the war. Clearly, in this context, 579 00:35:55,120 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 1: the war we're talking about is the Civil War. You know, 580 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,600 Speaker 1: you're talking about an era when most of the modern 581 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 1: sports that we follow we're not even invented. Yet. You're 582 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,400 Speaker 1: talking about an era when you know, horse racing was 583 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 1: probably the biggest competition type sport that there was. So 584 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:20,200 Speaker 1: it's an age when people again romanticized and sort of 585 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 1: made made heroes out of people who did these kind 586 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:29,719 Speaker 1: of brave, dangerous things, especially on the frontier. There was 587 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 1: nothing that qualified better than bear hunting. So there was 588 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 1: this kind of daredevil, rock star, you know, athletic he yeah, yeah, 589 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 1: and it's even better than than modern day uh athlete. 590 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:47,560 Speaker 1: He rose because some of these guys didn't make it out. 591 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:50,360 Speaker 1: I mean there, you know, there were guys like Erskine 592 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 1: who died uh and and further sort of burnished the 593 00:36:55,239 --> 00:37:01,600 Speaker 1: stories of the survivors. When I first read this book, 594 00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 1: I was intrigued by girl Stalker's relationship with the Native Americans. 595 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,800 Speaker 1: Many times in the book he recounted camping and hunting 596 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: with them, and their interactions were always peaceful and he 597 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 1: seemed to have the utmost respect for them. Once Gerstalker 598 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,720 Speaker 1: described staying in the Native camp and the men coming 599 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 1: back into camp the next morning with a giant black bear, 600 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:27,839 Speaker 1: which was quote the largest I'd ever seen. He said 601 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 1: the men would sit around the fire at night, smoking 602 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:34,719 Speaker 1: their pipes, stoically staring into the fire and not say 603 00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,920 Speaker 1: a word. He would try to talk, but they basically 604 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 1: told him to be quiet. Anyway. I asked Dr Blevins 605 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:49,759 Speaker 1: about the relationship between natives traveling Europeans and Americans. How 606 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,240 Speaker 1: would how would they have known that these Native Americans 607 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:55,759 Speaker 1: weren't hostile as I as I was as I was 608 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,239 Speaker 1: reading this book, playing the story through my head. They 609 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:01,719 Speaker 1: had no qualms with these people, And I mean the 610 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 1: Native Americans had no qualms inviting these guys into their camp. 611 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:09,840 Speaker 1: Like was that normal? Where if you're if you're dealing with, uh, say, 612 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,799 Speaker 1: the Cherokees, that would have been normal. The Cherokees were, 613 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,360 Speaker 1: I mean, it's you know, it's a it's a cliche 614 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:19,920 Speaker 1: and and and a statement that you know contains racist 615 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,080 Speaker 1: ideas within it. But historians used to call them the 616 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:28,040 Speaker 1: the so called civilized tribes, and the Cherokees were one 617 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:30,920 Speaker 1: of the foremost of those. And what that meant to 618 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,240 Speaker 1: historians a few generations back is that the Cherokees had 619 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:40,080 Speaker 1: adopted the ways of white people. And by the early 620 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:46,360 Speaker 1: eighteen forties, you're talking about generations of Cherokees and Mountain 621 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,799 Speaker 1: white people who had lived in the vicinity of each other. 622 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,800 Speaker 1: There had been inner marriages, and there were all kinds 623 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,759 Speaker 1: of of connections, and certainly the Cherokees who were in 624 00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:01,160 Speaker 1: the Indian Territory lived lives that were very, very similar 625 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 1: to the Conwales and these other white settlers in the 626 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:08,319 Speaker 1: back country. I mean they were raising cattle and hogs, 627 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,600 Speaker 1: they were living in log houses, they were growing corn. 628 00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 1: They were so they had uh, they had adopted many 629 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,839 Speaker 1: of the trappings of white society. Many of them would 630 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:23,280 Speaker 1: have known English, and it would have been pretty common 631 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:29,680 Speaker 1: for them to interact with white Europeans. Ger Stalker describes 632 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,879 Speaker 1: in detail the burial of Erskine by the Native Americans. 633 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:37,480 Speaker 1: He noted the cold, stoic, and precise nature of the procedure, 634 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 1: and gir Stalker even said that odd deaths and unceremonious 635 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 1: funerals were common on the American frontier. Dr Blevins had 636 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:53,279 Speaker 1: some unique insight. I guess the short answer is is, 637 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:57,799 Speaker 1: I don't know how common that stark and that sort 638 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:03,000 Speaker 1: of detached, you know, burial would have been if Erskine 639 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:06,160 Speaker 1: hadn't been such a stranger. You know, he's not he's 640 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,160 Speaker 1: not related to any of these people. We don't even 641 00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:11,239 Speaker 1: know his last name. He's not even American, he's not 642 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:15,320 Speaker 1: Native American. He's a he's a traveler from another world, 643 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,480 Speaker 1: like like ger Shticker is. If he had had more 644 00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:22,080 Speaker 1: of a connection. I can't help but think that his 645 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,680 Speaker 1: burial would have been attended with some more you know, 646 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:29,480 Speaker 1: feeling and maybe you know, ceremony or something. But at 647 00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,200 Speaker 1: the same time, they're deep in the woods, deep in 648 00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,040 Speaker 1: the mountains, you know, they got bears to haul back 649 00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,279 Speaker 1: to where they're going, and it was just and yeah, 650 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:40,560 Speaker 1: I mean, what we're if they if they take his 651 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:43,560 Speaker 1: body out where I mean, who's gonna want it? You know? Yeah, 652 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:45,359 Speaker 1: Like you know, he doesn't have any family, So I 653 00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:49,120 Speaker 1: think that's obviously what scares the dickens out of girl 654 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,880 Speaker 1: Sticker is he's thinking, I'm Erskine, you know, to these people. 655 00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:57,560 Speaker 1: And that's what he says that that, I mean, this, 656 00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,640 Speaker 1: this could have been me. Just this unceremony. You start 657 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,719 Speaker 1: throw some dirt over him and let's get out of here. 658 00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:07,640 Speaker 1: And that's really that ends his career. I mean, that's 659 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:11,080 Speaker 1: that's really what he decides. You know, I may need 660 00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:14,160 Speaker 1: to go back home. Thinking from this standpoint, if you're 661 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:18,040 Speaker 1: talking about if you assume that these guys are Cherokees, 662 00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,560 Speaker 1: it's possible that they just lived through the trail of 663 00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,400 Speaker 1: tears five or six years earlier. And we know in 664 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:25,160 Speaker 1: the Trail of Tears. There were a lot of people 665 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,920 Speaker 1: buried on that trail. You know that guys we're familiar, 666 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,040 Speaker 1: may they may not be terribly unusual for them. You know. 667 00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:35,040 Speaker 1: I think that's a great point, because these would have 668 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,880 Speaker 1: been people that would have been familiar with death, and 669 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:42,040 Speaker 1: and Gerstalker said they had a very specific way that 670 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:45,520 Speaker 1: they did it. It wasn't haphazard. Would do what they 671 00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:48,239 Speaker 1: they line They lined the tomb with stones, and they 672 00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,120 Speaker 1: covered it with stones, and they just went to work 673 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:55,239 Speaker 1: as efficient. You know, I've never connected that to the 674 00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:58,480 Speaker 1: Trail of Tears. And also you think about it like 675 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:02,760 Speaker 1: these people would have inventially been hardened, not not hardened, 676 00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:06,120 Speaker 1: but you would speculate that to deal with that kind 677 00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:10,120 Speaker 1: of trauma that for sure, if not them themselves, but 678 00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:13,960 Speaker 1: their family members would have gone through they had a 679 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:17,080 Speaker 1: way of emotionally dealing with death that probably would be 680 00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:27,520 Speaker 1: different than I would. We don't know exactly where Erskine's 681 00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:30,520 Speaker 1: hundred and eighty year old grave is, but we do 682 00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:34,520 Speaker 1: know it's in the Hurricane Creek drainage in Arkansas. The 683 00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,840 Speaker 1: only clue we have was documented in a nineteen fifties 684 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:41,480 Speaker 1: paper in the Arkansas Historic Quarterly, when a professor from 685 00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:45,399 Speaker 1: Oklahoma got curious, drove to the Ozarks and set out 686 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:49,440 Speaker 1: in search of Erskine's grave. He recounted stopping at houses 687 00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:52,359 Speaker 1: in the remote region and asking locals if they knew 688 00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:57,000 Speaker 1: anything about the grave. He only found one clue. One 689 00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:01,279 Speaker 1: young man didn't know anything about Erskine years before had 690 00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:05,360 Speaker 1: found some suspicious old carvings on a rock in the 691 00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:09,120 Speaker 1: Hurricane Creek drainage. The man told him where the carvings were. 692 00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:14,359 Speaker 1: After examination, it was decided they were likely connected to 693 00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:18,279 Speaker 1: Erskine's grave, and to this day it's the best and 694 00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:22,960 Speaker 1: only clue we have. This is where the story gets interesting. 695 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:28,400 Speaker 1: That young man in the nineteen fifties was named Ori Province. 696 00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,520 Speaker 1: You may have heard an interview I did with Ori 697 00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:35,880 Speaker 1: on my past podcast, the Bear Hunting Magazine podcast titled 698 00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:39,239 Speaker 1: Old Mountain Hunter Episode twenty one. You can go back 699 00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:43,640 Speaker 1: and listen to it. In early March of nineteen, I 700 00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:47,120 Speaker 1: drove to ORI's home and interviewed him about his life. 701 00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:50,520 Speaker 1: I'd known Ori for at least ten years prior, but 702 00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:54,760 Speaker 1: one month later after our interview, Or he passed away 703 00:43:54,960 --> 00:44:00,640 Speaker 1: in April of nineteen at the age of two, My 704 00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:03,680 Speaker 1: kids and I turkey hunted the morning before his funeral, 705 00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:07,240 Speaker 1: not far from where he lived. We changed our camo 706 00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:10,120 Speaker 1: into funeral clothes on the side of a dirt road. 707 00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:13,480 Speaker 1: So many people were at the country church there was 708 00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:16,040 Speaker 1: no room in the main hall and we had to 709 00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:20,360 Speaker 1: sit outside or He was an incredible guy. At the 710 00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:24,320 Speaker 1: end of the interview, I asked him about the professor, 711 00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:28,799 Speaker 1: the carvings, and what he knew about Erskine's grave. I 712 00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:33,960 Speaker 1: just couldn't tell this story without including Corey. This is 713 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:45,120 Speaker 1: what he said. Hey, how are you doing? Oh I'm 714 00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:48,160 Speaker 1: doing fire against Good to see you, Yeah, good to 715 00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:52,680 Speaker 1: see you. Hello, miss Mary, how are you? This is 716 00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:55,200 Speaker 1: my youngest son, Shepherd. I don't think he's ever been 717 00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:57,960 Speaker 1: over here before. I don't haven't seen him before any 718 00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:00,759 Speaker 1: Come around and have a seen here. How are y'all doing? 719 00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:04,280 Speaker 1: Excuse the flour. I was in the middle of vacuumen, 720 00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:06,080 Speaker 1: but I ain't. I got done, so don't worry about 721 00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:10,759 Speaker 1: the hand. Oh this is great. So back in the 722 00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:16,200 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties, there was a college professor from Oklahoma that 723 00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:20,440 Speaker 1: came over here looking for a grave back in the 724 00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:26,560 Speaker 1: Hurricane Creek drainage, and they came here and asked you 725 00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:30,439 Speaker 1: if you knew where it was? Is that right? Tell 726 00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:32,759 Speaker 1: me all that you remember about that. Well, they come 727 00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:35,400 Speaker 1: and ask about it. Then uh uh, two of my 728 00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:39,319 Speaker 1: brothers went with them. Work. Um, I'm sating on this 729 00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:44,640 Speaker 1: rock eating dinner, uh, deer hunting, you know what dinner 730 00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:48,319 Speaker 1: there got looking coming on that rock and there's their 731 00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:54,120 Speaker 1: inationals are. Anyway, it had earl pointing right up the hill. Yeah, 732 00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:58,239 Speaker 1: and I found it and I told the once about it, 733 00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:03,720 Speaker 1: you know, and so and nobody had ever to your knowledge, 734 00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:08,239 Speaker 1: nobody had in recent time had found that. So you 735 00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:13,680 Speaker 1: just were up there on that rock hunt. Yeah. And 736 00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:15,719 Speaker 1: then so these guys came back in here in the 737 00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:21,240 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties looking for an old grave. These guys believe 738 00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:25,520 Speaker 1: that the engraving that you found was connected to that grave, 739 00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:29,680 Speaker 1: and they were looking for Erskine's grave and uh, and 740 00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,520 Speaker 1: so you gave him some intail back in the nineteen 741 00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:36,600 Speaker 1: fifties for where to potentially find that grave, and they 742 00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:40,040 Speaker 1: they claimed to have found it back in there a 743 00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:45,839 Speaker 1: long time. Yeah. Yeah, but anyway, yeah, that the grave 744 00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:51,080 Speaker 1: was just firm here defense for rock. So well, you know, 745 00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:55,759 Speaker 1: you're in an article in the Arkansas Historic Quarterly that 746 00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:59,239 Speaker 1: was written sometime in the nineteen fifties. Who whoever that 747 00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:01,399 Speaker 1: professor was And I have to look back. I've got 748 00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:05,279 Speaker 1: the article. Yeah, it's in Uh he's from Oklahoma. Yeah, 749 00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:08,560 Speaker 1: but your name is in there. I mean because he 750 00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:11,600 Speaker 1: said or he may not have said your name, but 751 00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:13,760 Speaker 1: it was it was you that he was talking about 752 00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:17,000 Speaker 1: that had you know, there was a young man that 753 00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:20,279 Speaker 1: had found this engraving on a rock that had an 754 00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:22,520 Speaker 1: E and they felt like that stood for Erskine and 755 00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:26,759 Speaker 1: that it was marking where the grave was three and 756 00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:32,880 Speaker 1: had a cut marking pretty deep down in that sand rock. Yeah. Yeah, 757 00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:35,799 Speaker 1: well that's a neat story. I'm I'm fascinated by that 758 00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:45,239 Speaker 1: story of Erskine's death. I really am. We've got to 759 00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:49,120 Speaker 1: wind back the clock about a decade. In two thousand 760 00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:51,400 Speaker 1: and ten, or he had told a friend and I 761 00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:55,440 Speaker 1: where the rock carvings were. I swore a vow of 762 00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:58,840 Speaker 1: silence to its exact location, and I don't plan on 763 00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:01,399 Speaker 1: going back on my word words, So don't ask me 764 00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:05,319 Speaker 1: where the engravings are. I won't tell you. In the 765 00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:08,480 Speaker 1: spring of two thousand and ten, myself, my son, Bear, 766 00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:11,880 Speaker 1: and my friend Mo set out on a series of 767 00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:17,000 Speaker 1: expeditions in search of Erskine's grave. Our search for the 768 00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:20,799 Speaker 1: old Bear Hunter is one of those odd experiences that 769 00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:24,960 Speaker 1: impacted me and my family in ways that's hard to describe. 770 00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:34,839 Speaker 1: I want to take you into the hurricane drainage. You're 771 00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:39,040 Speaker 1: all ready to go. It's not a short walk. It's 772 00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:44,000 Speaker 1: cold too. I don't know. It's at least it's over 773 00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:47,080 Speaker 1: a mile and a half. What do you think of 774 00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:50,360 Speaker 1: this country? Man? It's beautiful? What do you think? Ship? 775 00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:53,640 Speaker 1: Pretty cool? Is it? This is pretty easy walking though, 776 00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:58,239 Speaker 1: isn't it. This is about as rough as it gets 777 00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:08,360 Speaker 1: into the ozarks? Oh? Who down here? Hey? Look you 778 00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:14,719 Speaker 1: see that? That's it? Yeah, let's go to it. Every 779 00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:17,000 Speaker 1: time I come through here, I look for anything that 780 00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:21,399 Speaker 1: resembled the pile of rocks. But a hundred and eighty 781 00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:24,760 Speaker 1: years later, I don't think you really expect to see 782 00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:28,319 Speaker 1: a pile of rocks. All all that we know, the 783 00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:32,400 Speaker 1: only clue of this whole story is what Oor Province 784 00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:36,959 Speaker 1: told that professor in the nineteen fifties. They came back 785 00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:40,200 Speaker 1: in here, and at the time the professor claimed to 786 00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:43,440 Speaker 1: have actually found a grave. You know, like a pile 787 00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:46,080 Speaker 1: of rocks that looked like a grave, which at that 788 00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:49,719 Speaker 1: time would have only been like, you know, about a 789 00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:54,200 Speaker 1: hundred and ten years later. Today there's there's no pile 790 00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:58,239 Speaker 1: of rocks. Like, so we're kind of speculating that this 791 00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:02,520 Speaker 1: engraving has anything to do with this other than it 792 00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:07,960 Speaker 1: fits the geographic location to a t. And you know, 793 00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:10,320 Speaker 1: we're kind of taking this old professor at his word 794 00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:18,200 Speaker 1: that at one time there was a grave here. So 795 00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:22,759 Speaker 1: what I'm trying to understand and I've kind of just 796 00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:26,400 Speaker 1: come to terms with it, doesn't We don't need an understanding. 797 00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:28,360 Speaker 1: We can just make a choice in our life to 798 00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:32,000 Speaker 1: be impacted by people and stories and what people did. 799 00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:37,480 Speaker 1: But like, this story really shaped my life. It shaped 800 00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:41,120 Speaker 1: my adventure. It shaped like not very many days go 801 00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:44,720 Speaker 1: by where I don't think about ger Stoker and Erskin, 802 00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:46,799 Speaker 1: a man we didn't even know his last name. He 803 00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:49,759 Speaker 1: died back in these mountains. Why why, why do you 804 00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:54,959 Speaker 1: think these stories can be so impacting? This is my wife, Misty. 805 00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:57,000 Speaker 1: I don't know, but I was thinking this week about 806 00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:58,880 Speaker 1: that same thing. When you said we were going to 807 00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:01,360 Speaker 1: go out here, I was thinking about you reading that 808 00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:03,720 Speaker 1: story to our little bitty kids when they were little, 809 00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:07,279 Speaker 1: and kind of seeing the imprint of Erskine's life in 810 00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:10,280 Speaker 1: You know, our daughter still wears she's a high school senior. 811 00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:13,560 Speaker 1: She still wears a a bear claw around her around 812 00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:16,479 Speaker 1: her neck, a real pretty one, but a bear claw. 813 00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:19,400 Speaker 1: And I think that part of her sense of adventure 814 00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:22,359 Speaker 1: comes from that. I think our boy's interest in the 815 00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:25,719 Speaker 1: wild comes in large part because of the stories that 816 00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:28,239 Speaker 1: they heard. And I just thought it was notable that 817 00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:32,440 Speaker 1: this guy, you know, he died out here, and in 818 00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:35,520 Speaker 1: the in the book it even says his family might 819 00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:38,680 Speaker 1: not even ever know why. But I just thinking about 820 00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:41,799 Speaker 1: how his life and the loss of life might have 821 00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:47,359 Speaker 1: seemed insignificant or unnotable, But yet what happened in these 822 00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:51,480 Speaker 1: woods still impacts us a hundred and fifty two hundred 823 00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:54,720 Speaker 1: years later. Well, there's there's a lot inside this story. 824 00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:58,680 Speaker 1: There's the these guys were involved in market hunting and 825 00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:02,440 Speaker 1: wanton way of wildlife in many ways, and so we 826 00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:06,520 Speaker 1: can look back on these and remember that and that 827 00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:09,760 Speaker 1: informs our future. But how we'll never do that again. 828 00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:16,279 Speaker 1: And we're now like these ultra focused managers of wildlife 829 00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:19,560 Speaker 1: that are trying to use wildlife commodities to the highest extent, 830 00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:23,880 Speaker 1: and we've placed cultural value on on eating the food, 831 00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:28,239 Speaker 1: utilizing the animal. But even as important as we've placed 832 00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:33,880 Speaker 1: cultural value on valuing the hunt, the experience, the immersion 833 00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:36,520 Speaker 1: into the wild. This is a wild place for where 834 00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:41,080 Speaker 1: we live, and this story gives this place value. If 835 00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:45,120 Speaker 1: this place had been devoid of human experience for the 836 00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:48,760 Speaker 1: last thousand years, we would come here and it wouldn't 837 00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:51,960 Speaker 1: have as much meaning. We're humans. We value other people, 838 00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:54,800 Speaker 1: we value what they did. And to me, ger Stoker, 839 00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:58,719 Speaker 1: he's the one that lived his life, is an inspiration 840 00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:03,000 Speaker 1: because he at his time was what had foresight into 841 00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:04,600 Speaker 1: the future. He was one of the few guys of 842 00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:07,719 Speaker 1: the time that said, hey, the way these Americans are 843 00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:10,480 Speaker 1: doing this is bad, talking about market hunting and hunt 844 00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:14,480 Speaker 1: and waste and stuff. Um. He also just his spirit 845 00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:17,200 Speaker 1: for adventure and he valued people everywhere he went. He 846 00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:20,120 Speaker 1: talked about the people even then. This story talks about 847 00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:23,640 Speaker 1: his old dear friend Conwell. Like as I read this book, 848 00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:27,680 Speaker 1: like I saw how he cried when he left the 849 00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:31,480 Speaker 1: Conwell's home. This is a German with his American family, 850 00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:36,560 Speaker 1: and like, that's me, that's I want to value people 851 00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:40,239 Speaker 1: like that, um, his deep sense of adventure. I mean, 852 00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:44,239 Speaker 1: girsh darker, Holy cow, he did stuff that makes us 853 00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:47,440 Speaker 1: look like city slickers. Yeah. I think his appreciation for 854 00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:50,760 Speaker 1: the story and for for documenting the journey and documenting 855 00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:53,520 Speaker 1: the process and all the things. I mean, that's that's 856 00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:56,000 Speaker 1: so valuable and that I mean, that's why we know 857 00:53:56,120 --> 00:53:58,799 Speaker 1: the story is because he took the time and energy 858 00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:02,719 Speaker 1: to to write it down and and that indicates that 859 00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:07,319 Speaker 1: he saw value in the experience. Yeah, and that those 860 00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:11,880 Speaker 1: stories give this place meaning and give this place life 861 00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:14,920 Speaker 1: and shape. And you know, the land impacts people, and 862 00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:27,480 Speaker 1: people people give meaning to the land. The reason we 863 00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:30,120 Speaker 1: love stories and there's such a powerful part of the 864 00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:34,719 Speaker 1: human experience is because they have an impartational value though 865 00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:38,080 Speaker 1: we weren't there, and understanding of what happened and how 866 00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:43,400 Speaker 1: people responded inspires and instructs us in a very functional way. 867 00:54:44,120 --> 00:54:48,000 Speaker 1: In modern times, stories are often just seen as entertainment, 868 00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:52,920 Speaker 1: but they're a highly effective medium of transferring values and knowledge. 869 00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:57,439 Speaker 1: Even in what seems like mindless entertainment on television, which 870 00:54:57,480 --> 00:55:02,240 Speaker 1: is essentially a story, is power awfully transferring values into 871 00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:06,320 Speaker 1: your home. You have a choice of what stories impact 872 00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:10,120 Speaker 1: you and your family. As a family, we weren't big 873 00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:14,520 Speaker 1: into superheroes, but we allowed Gerstalker to become like one 874 00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:17,840 Speaker 1: in our family. I have a frame sketch of the 875 00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:21,720 Speaker 1: scene of Erskine's death that I drew framed in my office. 876 00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:25,080 Speaker 1: My father in law and I made a commemorative bowie 877 00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:28,440 Speaker 1: knife that we called the Girl Sticker. I don't have 878 00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:31,439 Speaker 1: a great reason why this story impacted me so much. 879 00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:34,320 Speaker 1: On the surface, it's probably because he was a bear 880 00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:37,239 Speaker 1: and deer hunter, and he hunted in the Ozarks like me. 881 00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:41,920 Speaker 1: Gerstalker valued people and he had some uncommon insight for 882 00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:46,480 Speaker 1: the time period, and I respect that Gerstalker's life can't 883 00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:51,040 Speaker 1: be seen in this one small story. I guess I 884 00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:55,080 Speaker 1: don't have a good answer, but I'm content just letting 885 00:55:55,360 --> 00:55:59,920 Speaker 1: stories do what stories have done for a long time. 886 00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:05,600 Speaker 1: Um they have impacted us and instructed us and inspired us, 887 00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:09,080 Speaker 1: and if we choose the right stories, it makes us 888 00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:20,200 Speaker 1: better people. H m hm