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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily Bloomberg I Heard podcast,

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Speaker 1: and I'm Stacy Marie Ishmael, Managing editor of Crypto for Bloomberg.

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Speaker 1: Mus It's Friday, October twenty one. This is episode one

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Speaker 1: hundred of the Bloomberg Crypto podcast. When we launched in June,

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Speaker 1: bitcoin was trading around thirty dollars salsios in three hours.

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Speaker 1: Capital hadn't yet filed for bankruptcy. People knew where Do

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Speaker 1: Kwan was, Celebrities cared about n f T s. It

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Speaker 1: was a different time. When we launched, we knew what

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Speaker 1: we wanted to do. Every day we take a look

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Speaker 1: at all things digital assets, the merge, absolutely, algorithmic stable

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Speaker 1: coins of course, bitcoin mining, no doubt. And we talked

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Speaker 1: to reporters, editors, analysts, investors, industry experts, academics, policymakers, all

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Speaker 1: in service of helping you better understand how crypto is

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Speaker 1: shaping and being shaped by finance and culture. So for

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Speaker 1: this one episode, we're flipping the focus just a little.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna spend some time answering your questions and hearing

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Speaker 1: from Bloomberg Senior Executive Editor Chris Nigi, a k a.

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Speaker 1: My boss the creation of of the Wedger, of the

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Speaker 1: blockchain letger seems like probably a kind of immutable part

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Speaker 1: of the evolution of people kind. Chris, Welcome to the podcast. Chris.

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Speaker 1: You are here not just because you are my boss,

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Speaker 1: but that helps, though, but also because part of your

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Speaker 1: responsibility here at Bloomberg is understanding better than any of

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Speaker 1: us really, like why markets are doing whatever it is

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Speaker 1: that they're doing. What has it been like for you

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Speaker 1: having to do that for Crypto for the past year

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Speaker 1: or so, pretty crazy, I would say, to begin with.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's not like the rest of the world's

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Speaker 1: markets have been behaving particularly sanely. Let's just establish that

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Speaker 1: at the outset um, this has been as looney h

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Speaker 1: two and a half years as I've ever seen. But

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Speaker 1: I would say Crypto has just been sort of a

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Speaker 1: proxy for the emotions that are driving everything else. It's

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Speaker 1: been somewhat of a lesson in whichful thinking, which markets

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Speaker 1: frequently are needless to say, But I think the big

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Speaker 1: sort of kind of logic artifact of the last eight

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Speaker 1: months or whatever it's been has been the upending of

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Speaker 1: the big theory around which is that it was would

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Speaker 1: work as an inflation hedge. I don't think anyone really

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Speaker 1: knew whether that was going to pan out, coming in

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Speaker 1: and watching it turn out not to be true, and

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Speaker 1: for crypto to be quite pretty much everything else a

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Speaker 1: call option on the world's liquidity has been pretty instructive.

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Speaker 1: I think we can pretty safely say at this point

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Speaker 1: it's not working out as an inflation hedge, and it's uh,

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Speaker 1: it's Corroatian to everything else wishful has has been. It's

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Speaker 1: it's a big feature, and from the perspective of people

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Speaker 1: who don't want it to be correlated, more bug than feature,

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Speaker 1: really right, It's like in the absence of having something

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Speaker 1: like Bitcoin as an inflation hedge, in the absence of

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Speaker 1: having wacky tokens in your portfolio that you should be

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Speaker 1: getting like some alpha out of because they don't move

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Speaker 1: like anything else. What makes these markets interesting, then, the

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Speaker 1: raw psychology of it all, I think is its main attraction.

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Speaker 1: It remains hard for me to see exactly what the

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Speaker 1: value proposition is here. I think that separate from the

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Speaker 1: from the question of whether or not it's a workable

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Speaker 1: sort of means of exchange, which I think is a

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Speaker 1: much more interesting topic for crypto in general. It's speculative

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Speaker 1: meaning has I mean it's always been pure. We just

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Speaker 1: that it's been how many people can we get enthusiastic

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Speaker 1: about it, just like many other things and beat it

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Speaker 1: if we real markets right now like technology, Cromly, Meme stocks,

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Speaker 1: but really the rest of the market. There's another aspect

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Speaker 1: of it that I find pretty interesting. You know, people

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Speaker 1: who have written bitcoin both up and down, and the

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Speaker 1: way that it works as sort of again in wishful

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Speaker 1: thinking aspect, the people who wrote it up are largely

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Speaker 1: the same people who wrote it down. Says so much

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Speaker 1: about what investing is. The ability to hang with something

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Speaker 1: that rose as much as bitcoin in the sort of

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Speaker 1: it's saladays one I am convinced and this is like

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Speaker 1: maybe my first rule of investing. It is the exact

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Speaker 1: same thing that causes you to hold it all the

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Speaker 1: way back to where it is now. Um. I have

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Speaker 1: relatives who have done this, who if you said a

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Speaker 1: single discouraging thing to them about bitcoined any Thanksgiving is

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Speaker 1: where these things typically happen, you would you know, you

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Speaker 1: would be basically depending on the specific road punched out

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Speaker 1: of the room. And this lesson the fact that the

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Speaker 1: same talents to make you a star investor in the

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Speaker 1: way up are the ones that kill you on the

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Speaker 1: way down. I just think is arguably the most interesting

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Speaker 1: sort of immutable fact of markets. You said a couple

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Speaker 1: of things there that kind of anticipated some questions that

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Speaker 1: we got one of them very directly, right, So, Philip

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Speaker 1: Route in do crypto markets reflect the same kind of

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Speaker 1: trading psychology as other markets? What I'm hearing from you

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Speaker 1: is like, there's definitely a psychology, but it's not the

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Speaker 1: one you might necessary only expect. I was talking to

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Speaker 1: one of the producers on the show, Sharon earlier, about

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Speaker 1: the fact that you know, people buy high and sell

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Speaker 1: low in crypto, which is very confusing. But it's that

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Speaker 1: same energy that you're describing. Yeah, no, no question. Again,

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Speaker 1: it's just as millions of people have said, it's just

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Speaker 1: the sort of reinvention of of facts of investing and

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Speaker 1: finance that have been been with us forever. Something's hype

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Speaker 1: catches on and that's what draws people to it. Again,

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Speaker 1: it's particularly pronounced in bitcoin because or crypto in general.

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Speaker 1: Because I failed to sort of understand what exactly the

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Speaker 1: argument is that should give it sort of speculative value.

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Speaker 1: I'm aware of some of the argument some of the

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Speaker 1: qualities that made gold into a lasting store of value.

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Speaker 1: The fact that it doesn't rust was a big one

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Speaker 1: of them. Was by far the closest I ever came

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Speaker 1: to understand. And why this stuff should work is a

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Speaker 1: long term store value. It's it's immutability, it's finiteness. That

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Speaker 1: is something that kind of gives it a kind of

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Speaker 1: intrinsic difference from everything else. But still, there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of scarce things in the world, and it's been difficult

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Speaker 1: for me to quite differentiate Bitcoin from from a lot

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Speaker 1: of those that don't have any value, don't fluctuate, go

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Speaker 1: up and down like crazy. So again it's just been

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Speaker 1: a pure hype machine. It's, uh, you know what else

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Speaker 1: can we say? I I it gives me no great

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Speaker 1: pleasure to make that case. But that's what happened over

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Speaker 1: the last three years with meme stocks, with all these

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Speaker 1: things that I feel like people largely knew better about

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Speaker 1: and decided to take a punt on anyway, And I

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Speaker 1: guess this is what happens. Well. Charlie who asked the

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Speaker 1: question why does a crypto like bitcoin have any value? Um,

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Speaker 1: the answer is maybe you know, I think it's it

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Speaker 1: has value that not to get to sort of either

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Speaker 1: heady or existential, but some some days I feel like

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Speaker 1: it has value because people decided has value. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot about crypto that to me has always behave less

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Speaker 1: like a predictable financial assets and more like, as you

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Speaker 1: said earlier, a barometer of sentiments than anything else. That's true,

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Speaker 1: I mean a lot of the stuff that gets rayed

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Speaker 1: around it as UH sort of initial conception, digital unit

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Speaker 1: of exchange, a thing for remittances, just blockchain sort of

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Speaker 1: database ledger technology. In general, I think it's really subverted

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Speaker 1: by the obsession with its UH. It's up and downs

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Speaker 1: causes a lot of waste to occur around around the asset.

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Speaker 1: It's very difficult to obviously make any of these means

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Speaker 1: of exchange systems work with the thing fluctuating like crazy.

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Speaker 1: Another thing is that a ton of bad money is

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Speaker 1: thrown at bad ideas result of it. I think this

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Speaker 1: is a big problem right now. Your your average sort

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Speaker 1: of cryptos startup is some number go up, number go

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Speaker 1: down thing in essence, and it's diverting money from things

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Speaker 1: that actually could work. When thinks, I mean, maybe that's

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Speaker 1: how how things like this always work. Undoubtedly, it is

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Speaker 1: to some degree that you're going to have a long

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Speaker 1: period of wasteful spending that absolutely happened during the Internet bubble,

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Speaker 1: and then good things when people not coincidentally, when the

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Speaker 1: price finally collapsed and the obsession went away, that's when

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Speaker 1: sort of the serious commerce started to be built. Right,

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Speaker 1: You are perhaps inadvertently echoing the idea of many adventure

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Speaker 1: capitalists right now that this is the time to build right,

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Speaker 1: the notion that the speculative accesses are being run out

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Speaker 1: of the market, the irresponsible players are having to be

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Speaker 1: more responsible ergo, we should see some actual use cases

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Speaker 1: arriving sometime imminently. Yeah, and the psycho is not in

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Speaker 1: any way different from the way nineties. I feel like

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Speaker 1: another big distraction was just the number of Charlotte's involved

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Speaker 1: in it. A lot of clear grifters that were sort

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Speaker 1: of the face of bitcoin for a long time. It's

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Speaker 1: good that they that they get moved out. I mean,

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Speaker 1: they're never going away completely, but that doesn't help the case,

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Speaker 1: and it makes it very easy to throw mud at it.

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Speaker 1: And believe me, I love the throwing of mud at it.

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, but all of these distractions were

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Speaker 1: not a great thing for the overall prop it's just

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Speaker 1: made it so assailable. Coming up, you'll hear more from

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Senior executive editor Chris nag and we'll be answering

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Speaker 1: direct questions from our listeners. We'll be right back. It's

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Speaker 1: sort of weird when institutional investors or representatives of institutional

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Speaker 1: investors are like, I would like more volatility, please, because

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Speaker 1: my job is not fun enough. But I'm getting vibe,

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Speaker 1: you know, And having been covering this and some of

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Speaker 1: the things that we've talked about is that a lot

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Speaker 1: of people are in this because they felt like it

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Speaker 1: would be fun. And the existence of the Charlottean's, the grifters,

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Speaker 1: the bad money being thrown after bad ideas was like

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Speaker 1: some sort of acceptable externality as long as there was

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Speaker 1: a good time to be had. But now there are

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Speaker 1: new policies and everyone is sad, but the grifters are

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Speaker 1: still there. I am sure that the untold stories of

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Speaker 1: sort of speculative fortunes that were made off this thing

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Speaker 1: through that. I mean, you know, f t X is

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Speaker 1: reasonably forthright about some of their capers in the in

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Speaker 1: the space you can only imagine given heads fun wherewithal

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Speaker 1: and the intelligence being poured into the trading side of it,

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Speaker 1: the stories that see, the uncovered stories that exist around

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Speaker 1: just gigantic fortunes being made. The fact that that may

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Speaker 1: have been coming to an end. People are lamenting that. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know the welcome again just scuation you had, you

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Speaker 1: had a window to get that done. I suspect a

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Speaker 1: lot of really smart people did get that done, are

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Speaker 1: sitting on island somewhere, and again, these things have life cycles.

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Speaker 1: So if you are one of the persons sitting on

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Speaker 1: a yacht or on an island who made a bunch

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Speaker 1: of money doing shenanigans and would like to tell us

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Speaker 1: about it, all of the reporters of Bloomberg have signal,

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Speaker 1: feel free to let us know we're having to chat

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Speaker 1: at any time. One of the big picture questions that

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Speaker 1: we got and I feel like you are uncommonly qualified

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Speaker 1: to think about this, given the remit of your universe

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Speaker 1: is from Johannes Where do you think crypto will be

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Speaker 1: a hundred years from now? I struggle with the like

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Speaker 1: the baseline question of like, what do you think is

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Speaker 1: going to happen tomorrow? So a hundred years from now

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Speaker 1: feels hilariously far away. But are there any kind of

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Speaker 1: big ends that you're seeing that you think either crypto

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Speaker 1: is like going to benefit from or is it just

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Speaker 1: going to be nuclear war and none of this is

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Speaker 1: gonna matter anyway? Well, that'll probably be true. But leaving

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Speaker 1: that out, I do feel like the whole concept of

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Speaker 1: trustlessness is kind of inescapable evolution of basically everything. I think,

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Speaker 1: just sort of the distributed nous of online life and

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Speaker 1: the way that trend is going, the way you know,

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Speaker 1: everything is becoming basically unverifiable that you look at in

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Speaker 1: the world, deep fakes, Twitter, like everything that goes on

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Speaker 1: is totally depersonalized increasingly and impossible to trust. I think

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Speaker 1: that that aspect of it is probably right at some level,

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Speaker 1: Like the creation of of the ledger, of the blockchain

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Speaker 1: ledger seems like probably a kind of immutable part of

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Speaker 1: the evolution of of people kind basically. So, in a

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Speaker 1: very odd sense, I suspect that the discoveries in the

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Speaker 1: area of sort of restlessness is it's what it's big

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Speaker 1: discovery is going to end up being. And if everything

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Speaker 1: gets tokenized and I have an app where every single

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Speaker 1: possible financial gesture. I could possibly make scandaled through the

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Speaker 1: same channel someday. I wonder if that will be me,

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Speaker 1: But I do feel like the arrow of financial revolution

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Speaker 1: sort of heads in that direction at some level. Well

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Speaker 1: t I L. You are a gigantic hobsy in so

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Speaker 1: no amazing Well, thank you so much, Chris, A pleasure

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Speaker 1: to have you on the podcast. Same, thank you, Thanks

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Speaker 1: again to everyone who's amissed questions, and thank you Chris Nig.

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Speaker 1: You can find Chris ns with a at Chris nig

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Speaker 1: One that c h R I s n A g

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Speaker 1: I one on the next episode of Bloomberg Crypto. September

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Speaker 1: might have a reputation for being cruel to the bitcoin faithful,

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Speaker 1: but are they also in for a ska in October.

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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily podcast from Bloomberg and

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Speaker 1: suggestions for the show to Crypto at Bloomberg dot net

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Speaker 1: or find us on Twitter. We're at Crypto. The supervising

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Speaker 1: producer of Bloomberg Crypto is Vicky Vergalina. Our senior producer

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Speaker 1: Our associate producers are Ty Butler and Moses on Them.

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Speaker 1: Desta wonder At is our engineer. Original music by Leo Sidron.

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Speaker 1: I'm Stacy Marie Schml. We'll be back tomorrow at the

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Speaker 1: Staring at a Fund in a d