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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's

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Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here too, and it's a stuff you

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Speaker 2: should know. Hoe down to start the new year. Chuck's

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Speaker 2: still wearing his Novelty twenty twenty six glasses that he

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Speaker 2: got sponsored by Nivea.

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Speaker 3: That.

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Speaker 2: I believe what you were saying was Ryan Seacrest himself

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Speaker 2: handed him to you while you were at Times Square.

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Speaker 4: Right, No, not handed, he put them on my face hands.

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Speaker 2: Whoa is it? Because you guys are co workers?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, he's iheartedn't he?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? But I think like half of the US is

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Speaker 2: a coworker of his, got so many jobs.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you're probably right. Well, if you haven't guessed listening, audience,

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Speaker 4: this is our first recording of the new year. Yes,

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Speaker 4: I'm probably gonna be a little rusty. And can I

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Speaker 4: just give a quick shout out to a couple of things?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Please too, great as well. Josh knows all this stuff

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Speaker 4: because we communicate outside of work, believe it or not,

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Speaker 4: because we're fans. But I went to you know, New

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Speaker 4: York City, Emily and I do our little Broadway weekend

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Speaker 4: in New York over Christmas every year and this year,

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Speaker 4: I just want to say thanks to a couple of people,

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Speaker 4: most notably Natasha Hodgson of Operation Mincemeat fame, because she

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Speaker 4: is in the show and put together the show and

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Speaker 4: stuff you should Know, and she's been in magazines as

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Speaker 4: people alerted as giving stuff you should Know credit as

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Speaker 4: our episode inspiring that show, and was kind enough to

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Speaker 4: give us a couple of tickets to go see it,

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Speaker 4: and it was fantastic. I highly recommend it.

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Speaker 2: I know I was loath to miss it. That sucked.

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Speaker 4: I wish you could have been there, But it's you know,

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Speaker 4: it's still playing, so maybe you can check it out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I was especially upset when you said that she

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Speaker 2: gave you She came out in the audience in the

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Speaker 2: middle of the show and gave you like a bouquet

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Speaker 2: of roses.

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Speaker 4: No, no, no, the audience.

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Speaker 2: Lifted you up on their shoulders.

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Speaker 4: No, that was that was That didn't happen. Also went

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Speaker 4: to Barston Trolley as I like to do before Broadway.

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Speaker 4: Barston Trolley is where I go before Broadway shows.

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Speaker 2: Well, what is it?

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Speaker 4: It's a bar but it's it's sort of a I mean,

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Speaker 4: you can just make reservations a week out. I think

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Speaker 4: I've mentioned this before. It's it's sort of a secret

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Speaker 4: place in that it doesn't have a sign or it's

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Speaker 4: not wild publicize, but you know, seven days out from

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Speaker 4: when you want to go, you can call them up.

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Speaker 4: They specialize in getting people in and out of their

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Speaker 4: pre and post Broadway, and you know sometimes you can

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Speaker 4: see Broadway performers there on the down low.

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Speaker 2: Nice. I would have no idea that one could be

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Speaker 2: sitting next to me and I wouldn't even know.

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Speaker 4: Well, you might if it's if it's a famous you know,

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Speaker 4: like Brian Cranston was sitting there. No, but he could be.

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Speaker 4: I saw years ago, I saw Dexter in there. What's

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Speaker 4: his name?

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Speaker 2: Dexter's good enough.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. This year I saw the lady from Lost. Although

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Speaker 4: I don't think she's on Broadway, she was in there.

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Speaker 4: But all this to say big thanks to Jason who

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Speaker 4: helps take care of Barton Trolley and Joe's on Broadway.

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Speaker 4: He came over on his night off just to say

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Speaker 4: hi and was just a total sweetheart of a guy.

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Speaker 2: What a trip.

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Speaker 4: And then finally I want to thank Santa Santa Claus

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Speaker 4: in the Radio City Music Hall Show. I surprised Emily

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Speaker 4: by going to the Christmas show this year for the

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Speaker 4: first time.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I remember Santa rode In.

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Speaker 4: Santa rode In and although he was not in the

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Speaker 4: performance we went to. Santa Adam was very kindness in

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Speaker 4: a Christmas video to Ruby. Have you been to the show?

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Speaker 2: No, I'm just some bumpkin who stays at home all

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Speaker 2: the time. Apparently, dude, you and you me.

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Speaker 4: Have to go to the Radio City Music or Christmas Spectacular.

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Speaker 4: It is one of the delights of my life. The

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Speaker 4: Rockets was one of the most impressive, most amazing live

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Speaker 4: shows of any kind of ever seen. They were incredible.

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Speaker 2: Wow, okay, I'll go yeah, and it's.

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Speaker 4: You know you love you guys, love your Christmas cheer

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Speaker 4: and it really you can't. Even the biggest grinchy curmudgeon

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Speaker 4: wouldn't help but get in the mood, even at the

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Speaker 4: ten am show. But the Rockets were amazing and Santa

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Speaker 4: said that he turned them onto our listener mail and

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Speaker 4: the Rockets episode and some of the now current Rockets

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Speaker 4: are listening. Oh cool, So shout out to you Rockets.

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Speaker 4: Keep on kicking.

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Speaker 2: Hello, Rockettes. We did a whole show on the rockets,

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Speaker 2: didn't we did? Yeah, all right, that was amazing. Chuck.

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Speaker 4: You you were sick over the holidays, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: It really stunk. I got this cold that apparently there's

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Speaker 2: like a two week cold going around. Oh no, that

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Speaker 2: light and it was just like every day I would

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Speaker 2: add a new symptom, and it was I could do

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Speaker 2: stuff during the day, but I was just sick the

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Speaker 2: whole time and it was so sorry. It was rough. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: some thanks for that, I appreciate it. But we still

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Speaker 2: had a great Christmas. Well, Momo knows how to open presents,

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Speaker 2: so she opened presents on Christmas mornings. She was so happy.

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Speaker 2: Paul teeth quite a both. Okay, yeah, she's a pro.

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Speaker 2: She knows what she's doing. She got some new rabbit treats,

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Speaker 2: so she laid on her back and rolled on those

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Speaker 2: and she had a great Christmas morning.

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Speaker 4: So that's wonderful.

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Speaker 2: It was a good Christmas. After all. We hung out

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Speaker 2: with friends on Christmas Eve, and our friends Laurel and

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Speaker 2: Braden and their kids, Elliott and Bear, so we got

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Speaker 2: to hang out with Yeah you do, you've met them

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Speaker 2: twenty times. So we got to hang out with little kids.

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Speaker 2: On Christmas even, man, that will put you in the

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Speaker 2: Christmas spirit when you don't have kids of your own.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. How old are those kids?

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Speaker 2: They're like eight and six, I think, so that's fine

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Speaker 2: prime age.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, right in the zone.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So thank you though for your sympathy over my sicknesses.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I felt bad.

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Speaker 2: One thing I don't have, chuck, which I'm really happy

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Speaker 2: I don't have, because it's awful, is sad.

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Speaker 4: No sads for you.

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Speaker 2: I don't have sad. Do you have sad?

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Speaker 4: No, I don't have sad. You know, we're talking about

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Speaker 4: seasonal effective disorder, and just right off the bat, we

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Speaker 4: should point out, because I was about to say occasionally

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Speaker 4: I get the winter blues, that this is not that

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Speaker 4: this is a real it's legitimate depression and comorbid with

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Speaker 4: stuff like bipolar disorder, and we're going to talk all

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Speaker 4: about it. But it's not just you know, oh I

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Speaker 4: get a little blue in the winter sometimes when it's

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Speaker 4: you know, gloomy.

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Speaker 2: No, but it's tied to that. Yes, it's just it

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Speaker 2: seems to be an extreme version of that. But you're right,

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Speaker 2: it's not. It's nothing light, it's classified. I believe in

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Speaker 2: the DSM is a major depressive disorder. Yeah, with a

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Speaker 2: seasonal pattern. I think that's the clinical name for seasonal

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Speaker 2: effective disorder. And there are people out there, I think

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Speaker 2: something like five percent of people. I don't I believe

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Speaker 2: that's an American statistic. Yeah, that's America get the like

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Speaker 2: real deal seasonal effective disorder where they have major depressive

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Speaker 2: symptoms during the winter months. But something like ten percent

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Speaker 2: or maybe even higher than that. In the United States,

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Speaker 2: people get what's called sub syndromeal seasonal effective disorder, so

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Speaker 2: where you don't have it where it could be considered

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Speaker 2: major depression. But it's definitely worse than the holiday blues.

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Speaker 2: And the weird thing about this, although it's not so

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Speaker 2: weird once we explain it. It is seasonal. It's tied

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Speaker 2: to winter, and it seems that they figure or summer,

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Speaker 2: which that one's just mind blowing to me.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like they have it figured out. They

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Speaker 2: have this, they have it explained. So this is one

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Speaker 2: of my favorite episodes where it's like, here's how the

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Speaker 2: human body works, here's what's messed up with this when

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Speaker 2: we're talking about this. I love episodes like that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, not a lot of mystery, big thanks to Olivia

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Speaker 4: for getting the new year off to a great start

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Speaker 4: with another banger.

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Speaker 2: Yeah you're here.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we should say that this is something that hasn't

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Speaker 4: been officially I mean, it's obviously been around since you know,

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Speaker 4: time began, because as we'll see, it's tied to seasons

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Speaker 4: and especially light and how much light you're getting. So

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Speaker 4: that's always been a thing, but it hasn't been officially

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Speaker 4: diagnosed as a thing for that long. It was in

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Speaker 4: nineteen eighty four when there was a paper by researchers

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Speaker 4: at the National Institutes of Health. A particularly guy named

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Speaker 4: Norman Rosenthal got together and they discussed these almost thirty

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Speaker 4: I have a feeling. One dropped out. So there were

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Speaker 4: twenty nine patients. Most of them had bipolar disorder, and

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Speaker 4: they all had what we now know is as sad.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that thirtieth one when they like one weekend, they're

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Speaker 2: like how do you feel? And they're like fine, and

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Speaker 2: they're like you're cut, you can go here.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, bipolar disorders, we'll see, like really kind of

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Speaker 2: ties into this. It seems to be like also seasonal

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Speaker 2: in some weird way too. But pretty quickly after that

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty four paper, the DSM went all in three

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Speaker 2: years later, the DSM three R, as we all know

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Speaker 2: our stands for revised or rocking, that came out in

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty seven, and it was like, now, it was

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Speaker 2: a diagnosis, but it was used as a modifier as

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Speaker 2: we saw a major depressive disorder with a seasonal pattern.

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Speaker 2: So it wasn't its own thing. It was just a

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Speaker 2: subtype essentially of an existing depressive disorder. That's kind of

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Speaker 2: how they first had it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know, because it's seasonal, the most common

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Speaker 4: kind of sad that we think about, Like we mentioned,

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Speaker 4: it is very serious thing, and it starts off in

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Speaker 4: the fall, maybe early winter, and it kind of depends

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Speaker 4: on where you are is we'll see, although not all intuitively,

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Speaker 4: there's a third act reveal that might surprise some people.

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Speaker 4: It generally subsides in the spring. But I did mention

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Speaker 4: that that odd spring and summer variety that hasn't been

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Speaker 4: studied much. It's very very limited. About point five percent

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Speaker 4: of the population has this opposite pattern. But it is

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Speaker 4: a diagnosable mood disruption. It just happens in the spring

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Speaker 4: and summer, and it's tied more to sort of like

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Speaker 4: oppressive heat, and maybe unsurprisingly, some of the things they

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Speaker 4: recommend for that, which again we're going to cover a

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Speaker 4: little more later, is stuff like maybe stay inside, dim

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Speaker 4: the lights, that kind of thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And the thing that gets me about the summer

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Speaker 2: version that much rareer one is that the symptoms are

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Speaker 2: almost in some cases opposite the symptoms of winter. So

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Speaker 2: usually when you first start getting SAD, it's around young

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Speaker 2: adulthood ages eighteen to thirty, I think, And most people

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Speaker 2: who get it get it most years, but you don't

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Speaker 2: necessarily have it every year. Women are four times likelier

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Speaker 2: than men to have it, And if you have an

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Speaker 2: existing mood disorder, you're much likelier to suffer from seasonal

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Speaker 2: effective disorder because it's almost like it takes your existing

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Speaker 2: mood disorder, say bipolar two, and just builds on it.

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Speaker 2: There's an extra like environmental punch to it that really

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Speaker 2: kind of kicks it into high gear.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and that four times more common in women's that's

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Speaker 4: really substantial, And we'll get into that. It seems to

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Speaker 4: be tied to estrogen, but we'll dig into that a

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Speaker 4: little bit more in a bit. But having family members,

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Speaker 4: they think there's some genetic component to it. If you

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Speaker 4: have relatives that have depression or any kind of mental

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Speaker 4: health disorder, it's you know, obviously it doesn't mean you will,

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Speaker 4: but that could mean you might. I guess that's the

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Speaker 4: way doctors say it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you might got it.

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Speaker 4: And not surprisingly, you're more likely to develop SAD if

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Speaker 4: you live in places in the far you know, away

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Speaker 4: from the equator, far north or south, where there's gonna

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Speaker 4: be less sunlight, or maybe you know, in places like

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Speaker 4: Seattle where there's just more gray days than others.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was surprised I couldn't find the other eight,

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Speaker 2: the first eight, but Seattle was the ninth most affected

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Speaker 2: city with seasonal effective disorder. I would have thought it'd

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Speaker 2: be higher than that. I could not find the first eight,

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Speaker 2: So I'm like, does this list really exist or was

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Speaker 2: this just like a post intelligence or made up article?

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Speaker 4: And do they do they tie in things like or

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Speaker 4: do they list things like Tacoma, like neighboring neighboring towns?

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Speaker 4: Does that count as a different place?

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Speaker 2: I wonder that's a great question. What about Tacoma?

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Speaker 4: Well, I just wondered, Tacoma's very lovely, but maybe Seattle

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Speaker 4: might be a little more lively. Yeah, no, I could

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Speaker 4: get in trouble.

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Speaker 2: No, No, everybody knows about Tacoma. Okay, okay, it's been

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Speaker 2: a long time since we picked down a particular city.

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Speaker 4: Oh, I don't want to put to coma owner sites.

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Speaker 2: Okay, we won't because.

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Speaker 4: You know, you can't spell. You can't spell seat tack

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Speaker 4: without tack.

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Speaker 2: That's right. So what happens when you experience sad seasonal

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Speaker 2: effective disorder? I mean most people can kind of come

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Speaker 2: up with this idea of like what depression symptoms seem like,

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Speaker 2: but there's specific ones that emerge with seasonal effective disorder.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think you know generally what you will see

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Speaker 4: like with most depression listlessness obviously, sadness, interest and activities

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Speaker 4: that you might normally like you don't like as much.

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Speaker 4: You may have a hard time concentrating suicidal thoughts if

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Speaker 4: it gets really bad, hopelessness, maybe guilt sometimes, and then

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Speaker 4: some physical symptoms like just a weight like in your

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Speaker 4: limbs sometimes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like a lethargy, a fatigue and those. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 2: kind of common among depression in general. But winter sad

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Speaker 2: has some extra symptoms like over sleeping or just sleeping

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Speaker 2: too much or more than you normally would craving carbs,

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Speaker 2: overeating weight gain, and then that fatigue, the low energy

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Speaker 2: and tiredness and all of those things too create like

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Speaker 2: a feedback loop where you know, if you're depressed and

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Speaker 2: you start gaining weight and that kind of thing bothers you,

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Speaker 2: you're going to be even more depressed because you just

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Speaker 2: started gaining weight, in which case, if you're an emotional eater,

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Speaker 2: you might go eat more carbs and gain more weight

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Speaker 2: and there, you know, it just kind of goes on.

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Speaker 2: So that's one of the difficult things about it is

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Speaker 2: it's not just like I'm depressed. It's I'm depressed and

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Speaker 2: now everything is set up because of this winter season

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Speaker 2: for me to just keep getting more and more depressed

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Speaker 2: while winter's going on.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and if you're sitting there thinking like, oh, man,

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Speaker 4: like in the wintertime, I tend to sleep later, and

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Speaker 4: I tend to eat and maybe drink a little more

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Speaker 4: and gain some weight and I'm a little more tired.

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Speaker 4: Those are also That's why sad is such a sort

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Speaker 4: of a unique thing, because that also just describes a

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Speaker 4: lot of people in the winter. But there is a difference,

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Speaker 4: and you know we're gonna be pointing out those differences.

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Speaker 4: You mentioned summer was unusual because the summer sads because

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Speaker 4: it's very much opposite. And that goes for the symptoms

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Speaker 4: as well, because instead of sleeping in, you might have

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Speaker 4: trouble sleeping, instead of eating too much, you might have

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Speaker 4: a low appetite, you might lose weight, you might be

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Speaker 4: anxious and agitated and irritable. Headaches is another one for

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Speaker 4: summer sad.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like winter said you go inward and are

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Speaker 2: kind of closed off, and with summer said, you go outward,

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Speaker 2: but it's not in any like. That doesn't mean you're

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Speaker 2: just more sociable. It means like you're more agro potentially

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Speaker 2: than you would be with like winter sad. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: it is they're just kind of opposite, and yet they

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Speaker 2: tie into, like you were saying, how people already are

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Speaker 2: like you go out more in the summertime, you stay

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Speaker 2: in more in the winter time. So what seems to

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Speaker 2: be the case with seasonal effective disorder is that it

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Speaker 2: is a hyper or hypo version of a normal human

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Speaker 2: biological imperative that we have learned as a society to

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Speaker 2: try to ignore, and for some people ignoring it is

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Speaker 2: not really an option because it's so pronounced.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and escapable. Yeah. So there are basically four things.

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Speaker 4: And like I said, if you feel like, oh man,

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Speaker 4: I kind of feel those things in the winter too,

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Speaker 4: listen to these four things because this is when you

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Speaker 4: should see a medical professional as if one. If these

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Speaker 4: feelings persist for days and days in a row, it's

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Speaker 4: not like I just had a couple of rough days

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Speaker 4: when it was like really rainy and cold. If you're sleeping,

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Speaker 4: appetite patterns like really change is the second one if

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Speaker 4: you're coping with drugs and alcohol, that's a big red flag.

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Speaker 4: And then the fourth one if you feel hopeless or

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Speaker 4: suicidal for sure, And I think as far as diagnosis goes,

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Speaker 4: you have to I think it has to be for

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Speaker 4: at least two years in a row. Even though you

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Speaker 4: did say you don't necessarily have it all years, you

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Speaker 4: at least have to have it two years in a

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Speaker 4: row at some point.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And because it is essentially if you look at

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Speaker 2: the winter sad in summer sad, they're basically two ends

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Speaker 2: of a spectrum mania and depression. Like people with bipolar

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Speaker 2: two are definitely more susceptible to sad and they might

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Speaker 2: experience both types of seasonal although again just statistically speaking,

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Speaker 2: they're much more likely to just experience the winter sad.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure. And if you do see a professional,

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Speaker 4: they're probably gonna ask you a lot of questions. You

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Speaker 4: might even fill out an official questionnaire. There's no like

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Speaker 4: blood test or brain scan or anything like like you know,

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Speaker 4: other types of Russian that's the case as well, but

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Speaker 4: you might get they might rule things out. They might

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Speaker 4: do like a thyroid screening or you know, some other

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Speaker 4: things just to make sure it's not something like physical

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Speaker 4: going on.

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Speaker 2: Right, So that's sad everybody, And I think we should

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Speaker 2: talk about where this whole thing comes from. They think,

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Speaker 2: after a break, chuck our first break of twenty twenty six,

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Speaker 2: let's make it a big one.

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Speaker 4: You still got it, You still got it?

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Speaker 2: All right?

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Speaker 3: Lately I've been learning some stop about insomnia or aluminia.

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Speaker 1: How about the one on border like disorder that or

351
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Speaker 1: yer order that one before?

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Speaker 5: But it was so nice hoarded why except everybody listen,

353
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Speaker 5: stop shot.

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Speaker 1: Stop stop stop.

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Speaker 4: All right, So kind of like we were talking, it's

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Speaker 4: it's kind of hard to diagnose this. Uh as far

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Speaker 4: as when you should go to a doctor, because a

358
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Speaker 4: lot of people are just like this in the winter,

359
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Speaker 4: and you're also sort of fighting. I think you kind

360
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Speaker 4: of hinted at it like a natural human intuition in

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Speaker 4: a lot of ways, because if you go back in

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Speaker 4: time to the time where Tuck Tuck was roaming the

363
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Speaker 4: earth in the winter, they slowed down and they conserved

364
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Speaker 4: energy because food wasn't around and it was cold, so

365
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Speaker 4: they they bunkered down. And there are some interesting theories

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Speaker 4: around that, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. They think it's possible that Neanderthals had like a

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Speaker 2: real type of hibernation period in the winter now, you know,

369
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Speaker 2: like a bear necessarily, but something more pronounced than humans,

370
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Speaker 2: and that interbreeding with Neanderthals may have produced seasonal effective

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Speaker 2: disorder in some people.

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Speaker 4: Yea's pretty cool when Homo sapiens started hugging and kissing Neanderthals.

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Speaker 2: That's right. Like in what was it? Quest for Fire?

374
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Speaker 4: Oh man, there was some real realizations in that movie.

375
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Speaker 2: It was a I mean, what an interesting movie though,

376
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Speaker 2: you know. Yeah, Ron Pearlman, Yeah he really, he's a

377
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Speaker 2: good cave man.

378
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Speaker 4: By the way, did a minute ago did I say

379
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Speaker 4: bunker down? M I meant to say hunker down? Is

380
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Speaker 4: bunker down even a thing.

381
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Speaker 2: I feel like it should be more than hunkered down.

382
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Speaker 2: It makes more sense. Okay, I didn't even know I

383
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Speaker 2: heard you and made like I grasped that you said

384
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Speaker 2: bunker down, right, But it's so natural that it didn't

385
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Speaker 2: even seem wrong.

386
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Speaker 4: Yeah. And our Georgia bulldogs at what they say for

387
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Speaker 4: them is hunker down, you harried dogs. I'm gonna start

388
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Speaker 4: saying bunker down, and everyone's just gonna make them like

389
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Speaker 4: a Cia plant or something.

390
00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:09,639
Speaker 2: Right, a narc Yeah. Oh, I can't talk about the

391
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Speaker 2: dogs right now, I know.

392
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Speaker 4: Very disappointing.

393
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Speaker 2: What a heartbreaker. Yeah, okay, so you said something like that.

394
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Speaker 2: People back in Tuktok's age definitely slow down in the wintertime, right,

395
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Speaker 2: Your body just changes, And that's still the case with humans.

396
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Speaker 2: We have not evolved out of that. And there's been studies.

397
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Speaker 2: There was a twenty fifteen study that found that the

398
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Speaker 2: simone in Bolivia and the San people in Namibia, who

399
00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,240
Speaker 2: are in no way, shape or form related ones in

400
00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:44,520
Speaker 2: South America ones in Africa, they both sleep longer in

401
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:49,280
Speaker 2: the winter and less in the summer. And you might say, like, well, duh,

402
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,000
Speaker 2: we all do that. That's exactly the point. There's some

403
00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:57,200
Speaker 2: sort of biological mechanism. There's some sort of like I said,

404
00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:04,080
Speaker 2: imperative where you, without conscious thought and kind of without

405
00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,880
Speaker 2: without a choice, you slow down in the winter time

406
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,040
Speaker 2: and you speed up more in the summertime. That's just

407
00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,640
Speaker 2: what our bodies do. And because of this natural thing,

408
00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,159
Speaker 2: it can go haywire, just like any other natural thing

409
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,960
Speaker 2: in humans. When it does, that produces seasonal effective disorder,

410
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:24,080
Speaker 2: and they think they've got the mechanism to the whole

411
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Speaker 2: thing down.

412
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Speaker 4: Yeah, and that, you know, that's kind of evidence. In

413
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Speaker 4: this German study from twenty twenty three, they did a

414
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Speaker 4: study and caveat all this was it was a study

415
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:38,920
Speaker 4: already of people that had sleeping issues with disturbed sleeping patterns, right,

416
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,280
Speaker 4: so it was kind of you know, it wasn't just

417
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Speaker 4: the general population. And interestingly, they found that even if

418
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Speaker 4: they were living in place where it was mostly artificial light,

419
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Speaker 4: even then by season their sleep cycles would vary. So

420
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Speaker 4: it's not just like, yeah, if you live out away

421
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Speaker 4: from all the you know, out in the boonies, away

422
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 4: from industrialization, your circadian rhythms are really dictated by natural light.

423
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Speaker 4: That would make sense, but they found that that took

424
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,280
Speaker 4: place even when you were just living a regular, well

425
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Speaker 4: lit life.

426
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Speaker 2: Yeah, even when you lived in a windowless, brutalist apartment

427
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,600
Speaker 2: in Munich. That's right. You wear a black turtleneck all

428
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:21,239
Speaker 2: year round, oh man. And then another kind of thing,

429
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,320
Speaker 2: like you said, that was a small study and it

430
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,160
Speaker 2: was of people who already had a sleep disorder. Yet

431
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 2: it backs up what everybody kind of anecdotally already knows. Right,

432
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,560
Speaker 2: you sleep more in the season, and you're more tired

433
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,080
Speaker 2: in the winter season. Another thing that's anecdotal but is

434
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,200
Speaker 2: backed up by study is that your appetite changes, right. Yeah,

435
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 2: some of it's cultural, where like you know, Christmas cookies

436
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 2: are around, sure you're gonna eat them, and Christmas cookies

437
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:52,879
Speaker 2: aren't around in March. Say maybe some maniac makes like

438
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,880
Speaker 2: Saint Patrick's Day cookies, but way more people make Christmas

439
00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:00,640
Speaker 2: cookies than Saint Patrick's Stay cookies. So there are reasons

440
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 2: that your appetite does increase just because there's more delicious

441
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 2: stuff around. But we've also found that just by being

442
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,479
Speaker 2: in colder temperatures, being exposed to colder temperatures over periods

443
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:15,240
Speaker 2: of time, hormone levels change in our bodies. And we

444
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:20,879
Speaker 2: crave more calories because as we digest them, we produce

445
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 2: more heat and that keeps us warm. We don't need

446
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 2: bear skins anymore.

447
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:31,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right, we need buckeyeballs. And Emily's aunt comes

448
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,400
Speaker 4: to town every Christmas now and all the her mom

449
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 4: and her aunt and her sister and Ruby, they all

450
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 4: make have a night making Christmas cookies.

451
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 2: Nice.

452
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 4: Oh dude, I did better this year than usual. I

453
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,359
Speaker 4: somehow managed to only put on five pounds.

454
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 2: Hey, that's not bad for Christmas.

455
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:51,920
Speaker 4: From Thanksgiving to January fourth.

456
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great.

457
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,959
Speaker 4: That's not bad because usually that number is more like twelve.

458
00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 4: So and I found that that temporary sort of goes

459
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:01,479
Speaker 4: off a little quicker too.

460
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:02,440
Speaker 2: Yeah.

461
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:04,639
Speaker 4: It's certainly you get back to reason, you know.

462
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the key is getting back to reason faster

463
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,359
Speaker 2: than you know, just not putting it off for the

464
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 2: rest of the month of January, That's what I think.

465
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 4: And the buck eyeballs are gone, and those old fashions

466
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:17,800
Speaker 4: really slow down after Christmas.

467
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 2: Man, those buck eyeballs. I made my mom's Christmas cookies,

468
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 2: my mom's recipe, the one that I grew up with

469
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 2: as a kid, that had confounded me for years because

470
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,719
Speaker 2: I couldn't get it quite right. It was always too flowery. Okay,

471
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 2: And in the last few years I've learned enough about

472
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:36,879
Speaker 2: baking that I kind of figured it out on my

473
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 2: own and I nailed it finely.

474
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 4: Nice.

475
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:41,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I was going to have some of those.

476
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 2: I'll make you some.

477
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,360
Speaker 4: It takes Christmas though, yes, for sure.

478
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 2: Note don't do it, but you got me these cookie

479
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 2: cutters that are all like kind of they're like sentimental

480
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:58,640
Speaker 2: between us, like different shapes. And one of them is broccoli,

481
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 2: so proctally say cookie cutters and I hate broccoli.

482
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 4: So oh I love that. That's fun.

483
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't have any I oh yeah. We were

484
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 2: talking about how appetite changes.

485
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,400
Speaker 4: That's right. Here's one thing though you might think you've

486
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 4: probably heard that, like, you know, suicide spike around the

487
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 4: holidays because it can be such a tough time of

488
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 4: the year for people. That is actually not true. In fact,

489
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 4: they happen the least in December. They're more common in

490
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,639
Speaker 4: the summertime. Of course in Australia that's reversed because of

491
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 4: where they are on how their seasons run. So we're

492
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 4: talking about that, you know, our hemispheres perspective obviously, right.

493
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 4: But I found that interesting and it's good to correct

494
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 4: the record because I think everyone always hears that it's

495
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 4: probably good in a way, because it's anytime you're raising

496
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 4: awareness on something like that, that's a good thing. But

497
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 4: that's not true that they spike over the holidays.

498
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 2: Now. I feel like we've talked about that before, and

499
00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:00,680
Speaker 2: they think that maybe like just by people reaching out

500
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,440
Speaker 2: more during the holidays, you have a greater social calendar.

501
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:08,879
Speaker 2: Typically just the holiday spirit can get to people. But

502
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,439
Speaker 2: then also there's some other explanations for why it might

503
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 2: be more common in the spring or summer months, like

504
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:21,239
Speaker 2: you might just have more energy to actually complete suicide. Right.

505
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 2: Another one that I thought was just horrible is that

506
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 2: there are autoimmune conditions like lupus or rheumatoid arthritis that

507
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 2: are linked to seasonal allergies, and that people who have

508
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:36,440
Speaker 2: those are is this this overlooked population of people with

509
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 2: a higher suicide risk, and that that would account for

510
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 2: it because your loopis is probably flaring up way more

511
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 2: in the spring and summer than it is in the

512
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 2: winter months.

513
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure. And you know, we've kind of hinted

514
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 4: around about the length of day, and we're going to

515
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 4: talk a lot about that over the next little bit,

516
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,679
Speaker 4: but it is, you know, it's intuitive and it's correct

517
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 4: that the more tense that seasonal changes as far as

518
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 4: that length of day goes, the more likely you're gonna

519
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 4: have SAD. That was a I believe it was a

520
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 4: meta analysis from South Korea just last year in twenty

521
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 4: twenty five. They had studied twenty four studies with thirty

522
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 4: thousand total participants, so pretty robust. And for each one

523
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 4: degree of increase in latitude, SAD rose by point two percent,

524
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,160
Speaker 4: and the just the winter blues by point three two percent.

525
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,879
Speaker 4: So one, you know, one degree increase in latitude is

526
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 4: obviously a little less daylight.

527
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 2: It's like Jimmy Buffett said, changes in latitude, changes in attitude.

528
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 4: Never thought about that.

529
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 2: That's what he was talking about with seasonal effective disorder

530
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 2: in that song.

531
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, he changed the title though, because you know, when

532
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 4: you title things like Cheeseburger in Paradise, you can't title

533
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 4: something seasonal effective disorder.

534
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 2: Well, it was originally this song was titled major depressive

535
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 2: Disorder with a seasonal pattern, right, right, So yeah, I

536
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 2: think he was wise to change it. As well. So

537
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 2: let's talk about is you want to get into some

538
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 2: of the causes. I've been teasing this basically the entire episode,

539
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 2: and I'm really kind of jazzed about this part.

540
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, here's here's where it gets science y,

541
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 4: because our old friends. Obviously serotonin and melatonin show up, right.

542
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 2: Yes, so just as a refresher, serotonin is responsible for

543
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 2: things like mood, sleep, cognition, bunch of other stuff. But

544
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 2: as far as seasonal effective disorder goes, those are the

545
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 2: important things that serotonin does. Right. Yeah, what's really cool.

546
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 2: I didn't actually realize this sunlight hitting your retina actually

547
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 2: triggers production of serotonin. It increases the production of serotonin. Right,

548
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 2: So therefore, when we're exposed to less sunlight, there's a

549
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 2: lower angle of the sun, you just don't get as

550
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 2: much sun physically in the winter months. That means that

551
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 2: your serotonin levels are actually less in winter than they

552
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 2: are in the brighter spring and sou summer months. That's

553
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 2: just a fact. It happens to everybody, but in most people,

554
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 2: your serotonin transporter gene starts producing less serotonin transporter, the

555
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 2: stuff that goes in and gets the serotonin out. Of

556
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 2: the synapse, right, that's right, which means that there's less serotonin,

557
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 2: but there's also less transporters removing the serotonin that's there,

558
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 2: so you keep about the same level of, say, mood,

559
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 2: that you would have in the summer months because your

560
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 2: body is adjusting. What they found, just amazingly is that

561
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 2: there are two things that are screwed up with the

562
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 2: serotonin and the serotonin transporter. That seem to be one

563
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 2: of the major causes of seasonal effective disorder.

564
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 4: So spill it. You're on a roll.

565
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 2: Okay, So people with seasonal who get seasonal effective disorder,

566
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 2: they have enough serotonin all year to keep them from

567
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 2: being depressed, right, But just like everybody else, when they

568
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 2: are exposed to less light, their serotonin goes down. But

569
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 2: the thing that seems to give them seasonal effective disorder

570
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 2: is that their serotonin transporters don't also go down. So

571
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 2: like everybody else, they have lower serotonin during the winter,

572
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 2: but they have the same amount of serotonin transporters, so

573
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 2: there's less serotonin, and proportionately speaking, there's more serotonin transporters

574
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 2: removing the serotonin keeping it from working, which pushes them

575
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 2: from non depressed to depressive. Symptoms all because they're exposed

576
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 2: to less light during the wintertime.

577
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know, I mentioned women have it four

578
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 4: times as often as men do, and it was tied

579
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 4: to estrogen, and it looks like variations and estrogen levels

580
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 4: can interact with those changes in serotonin and basically make

581
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 4: it worse. And that probably is the explanation why women

582
00:31:56,200 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 4: get it more. And you know perimenopause and menopause affect

583
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 4: all that as well, which are that's an episode we

584
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 4: need we need to do for sure. Yeah, and also

585
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 4: there you know, we mentioned there's a genetic element, right,

586
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 4: So it looks like that people is generally speaking, who

587
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 4: have at least one short allele in that serotonin transporter

588
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 4: gene promoter region. I know that's a lot of words, everybody,

589
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 4: Huh the tl d L is too long? Hidn't listen?

590
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 4: Is that right?

591
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 2: Yeah?

592
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 4: Is that it's there's a genetic component. So if you

593
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 4: have that short allele, you're going to be more more

594
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 4: vulnerable to developing just regular depression, to any kind of

595
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 4: like you know, life events or stresses like that, or

596
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 4: just depression period. But that short allele is also associated

597
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 4: with those higher search levels, the se RT levels in

598
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 4: the winter and that's where your increased level is SAD

599
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 4: is going to come on.

600
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, So that's serotonin. That's a big, big factor in

601
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 2: reducing seasonal effective disorder, as well as just any kind

602
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 2: of major impression, right.

603
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 4: Yeah. So melatonin is next, and that just kind of

604
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 4: broadly speaking as far as we're concerned as the one

605
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 4: that you know, kind of makes you sleepy.

606
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, which I mean, it can make you sleepy, it

607
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 2: can make you lethargic, it can make you not want

608
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 2: to go out, and all of this stuff. Remember, there's

609
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 2: a positive heedback loop here with the depressive symptoms that

610
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 2: come on with seasonal effective disorder, the behavior they produce

611
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 2: feeding back into becoming more and more depressed. Melatonin keeps

612
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 2: you from wanting to do stuff because that's the way

613
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 2: our bodies are set up to respond during the winter.

614
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 2: And it all has to do with the circadian rhythm, which,

615
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 2: as everybody knows, most people know, governs your sleep and

616
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 2: wake cycle. Right.

617
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

618
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 2: It also has to do with digestion, it has to

619
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 2: do with body temperature, and all sorts of other hormones.

620
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 2: I didn't know this, but apparently it has to do

621
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 2: with the release of cortisol, which we think of cortisolts

622
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 2: typically as a stress hormone full stop, and it is,

623
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 2: but it also is a hormone that causes us to

624
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 2: do more stuff to produce more energy. So when the

625
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 2: circadian rhythm is not quite functioning correctly, it doesn't just

626
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:18,439
Speaker 2: make us sleepy, it actually makes us less energetic as well.

627
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 2: And the whole thing, the whole circadian rhythm is controlled

628
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,800
Speaker 2: by a little part of the hypothalamus called the super

629
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:27,280
Speaker 2: chismatic nucleus or the SCN.

630
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:29,399
Speaker 4: Nice work on that one.

631
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 2: I practiced a couple of times.

632
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, the SEN And this is where we can throw

633
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 4: a little German in there. It relies on zeitgebers or

634
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 4: time givers. And these are just clues from the world

635
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 4: around us telling you you know, what's going on. And

636
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 4: mainly what we're talking about here is light. Sunlight again

637
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:51,839
Speaker 4: hitting those retinas, it travels to the SCN and then

638
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 4: that signals the pineal gland to release or produce that melatonin.

639
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:00,120
Speaker 4: So the more light you have, the less melatonin have have.

640
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 4: That's why you know you're not supposed to be looking

641
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 4: at your cell phone or avoid like really bright lights

642
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,840
Speaker 4: before you try and get some sleep. But the tldal

643
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 4: here is it just means our bodies make more melotonin

644
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 4: in the wintertime than the summertime, So you're gonna be

645
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 4: sleeping longer and probably a little more lethargic.

646
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. So serotonin plus melotonin being messed with it

647
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 2: happens to everybody, but most people's bodies respond in a

648
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 2: way that that regulates it and keeps it from becoming depression.

649
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 2: Some people do not have that same way to regulate it,

650
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 2: and that's who has seasonal effective disorder.

651
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:40,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I thought this is really interesting. So it's

652
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 4: you know, we just said that if you experience sad

653
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 4: then you're you're gonna have a greater than average increase

654
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 4: in melotonin in the winter than you know, your your

655
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 4: average person. But this is really interesting. You know, we

656
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,320
Speaker 4: talked about sunlight coming through your retinas, and that's the

657
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 4: pathway that it initially travels, right, maybe a little on

658
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 4: your skin, but mainly through your retinas. They found that

659
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 4: your retinas actually actually react less to light in the

660
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 4: winter compared to the summer.

661
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:10,319
Speaker 2: You're right, Chuck, that is really interesting, Thank you, Josh.

662
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:13,239
Speaker 4: And I guess before we break, we should talk about

663
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,359
Speaker 4: the third little thing after serotonin and melotone in which

664
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:21,319
Speaker 4: are social and environmental factors. You know, if you have sad,

665
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 4: you when it's when fall rolls around, you start to

666
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 4: get that dread. You're going to have a negative emotional

667
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 4: response to winter. It's not the cause of it, but

668
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 4: that's part of that feedback feedback loop that you were

669
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 4: talking about. You're like, oh man, the days are going

670
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 4: to get shorter if you live in the Pacific Northwest

671
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 4: or other places where it rains a lot and it's

672
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 4: just more gray days that time of year. You just

673
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 4: you start to have that dread and that that just

674
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 4: feeds everything.

675
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,239
Speaker 2: Yep, yeah, it just makes it worse. And then, yeah,

676
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 2: the whole thing is that feedback loop. Chuck, I'm going

677
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,320
Speaker 2: to do it again. I think we should take a

678
00:36:58,400 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 2: message break.

679
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 4: All right, we'll finish up with sad right after this.

680
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 3: Lately I've been learning some stop about insomnia or aluminia.

681
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 1: How about the one hon borderlin disorder that are younger

682
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 1: order that one be warm But it was so nice.

683
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 5: Hoar why except nobody listen up?

684
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 2: Job stop stop stop, Yes, all right, So we talked

685
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 2: several times that about sad being a form of major depression,

686
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 2: which means that it is highly treatable. Actually thanks to

687
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 2: our friend, selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor SSRI or antidepressants apparently well,

688
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 2: BUTTRIN works really well to treat SAD. But basically any

689
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 2: SSRI is going to work. One thing that stuck out

690
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 2: to me, I believe that if you have seasonal effective disorder,

691
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 2: but you you're not. You don't have bipolar, you don't

692
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 2: have major depressive disorder, it's just seasonal. I guess they

693
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:30,359
Speaker 2: suggest that you take SSRIs. You ramp up and say,

694
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 2: like the fall before it becomes winter, and then you

695
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:37,800
Speaker 2: wean off as springtime comes around. So they would have

696
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:40,800
Speaker 2: you on SSRIs, but not year round because you wouldn't

697
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,720
Speaker 2: need them year round. I thought that was fascinating because

698
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 2: that can be that can be risky if you don't

699
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 2: do it right, it can be really risky.

700
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know, one of the things after that

701
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:54,920
Speaker 4: they suggest with all of these treatments is that you

702
00:38:55,560 --> 00:39:00,080
Speaker 4: you you start before it hits like you know, and

703
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:02,760
Speaker 4: depending on where you live, like when fall starts rolling around,

704
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:05,839
Speaker 4: maybe you start some of these therapies to see if

705
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 4: you can head it off at the pass like in

706
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 4: the Old West. Yeah, but CBT is another thing that

707
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 4: they suggest. Like all cognitive behavioral therapy, it's basically, folks,

708
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 4: you know, trying to get you to change the way

709
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:22,839
Speaker 4: you're thinking about a thing. It might be a group

710
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 4: therapy a couple of times a week over a couple

711
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 4: of months maybe, but specifically in this case, it's like,

712
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 4: let's try and get those negative thoughts about the upcoming

713
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 4: season or the season that is upon you with positive

714
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 4: ones and maybe do things like, hey, I know this

715
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:43,279
Speaker 4: is a thing for me, so I'm gonna plan some

716
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,360
Speaker 4: things specifically for this winter that I know that I

717
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 4: will enjoy.

718
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like CBT seeks to break that feedback loop up,

719
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 2: so at least you're not getting worse and worse because

720
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 2: of all the other the cascading effects that has. Yeah,

721
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 2: for sure, one of the other ones, like as that

722
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:04,839
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty four study right off the bat came identified

723
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:08,879
Speaker 2: a really great treatment for seasonal effective disorder that's non

724
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,799
Speaker 2: pharmaceutical that you can do at home. As a matter

725
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:14,440
Speaker 2: of fact, you can do it at the library. I

726
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:19,760
Speaker 2: saw that the libraries in Northern Ireland rent out light boxes.

727
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:23,719
Speaker 2: It's called bright light therapy. Us is very intense white light.

728
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 2: Don't worry, there's a protective UV cover, so you're not

729
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 2: blasting your face. You're not going to get a tant

730
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:33,879
Speaker 2: from it, essentially, but your retinas are going to pick

731
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:37,799
Speaker 2: up on that white light, and so serotonin is going

732
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 2: to increase, your melatonin is going to not be so high,

733
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 2: and it can actually treat especially moderate forms of seasonal

734
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 2: effective disorder.

735
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:52,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure. The idea is you put this light on.

736
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 4: You don't just sit there and stare at it. You

737
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:57,760
Speaker 4: just kind of maybe do it in the morning fifteen

738
00:40:57,840 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 4: minutes to an hour, maybe forty five minutes or so,

739
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 4: cast it upon your face. This goes is that funny? Yeah,

740
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 4: this goes all the way back actually to the seventeen hundreds.

741
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 4: It was an Italian physician named Vincenzo Chierra Rugi who

742
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 4: way back then said, hey, if you're depressed, I think

743
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:20,279
Speaker 4: sunlight would help. So it's been a thing for a

744
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:23,440
Speaker 4: long time, but now you know, obviously they still say

745
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 4: get out in the sun if you can. But in

746
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:26,840
Speaker 4: a lot of places where there's limited light in the

747
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:29,359
Speaker 4: winter or just gray days like we were talking about,

748
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:33,239
Speaker 4: this is where the blt that bright light therapy comes

749
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 4: in play. I saw they also make little hats, little visors.

750
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:39,359
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, that just shine down on your face at

751
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:39,880
Speaker 4: all times.

752
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 2: Nice like Collective Soul said, Yeah.

753
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:46,760
Speaker 4: I don't think you're supposed to I think it's supposed

754
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:48,400
Speaker 4: to be limited. Still, though, you're not supposed to have

755
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 4: that light on you at all times because it can

756
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 4: disrupt your sleep and cause eye strain and fatigue and

757
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 4: stuff like that.

758
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, you don't want to overdo it for sure,

759
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,279
Speaker 2: And I think it's different for each person how much

760
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 2: you actually but it does work. I know firsthand it

761
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:05,879
Speaker 2: works because you may used to get what I guess

762
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 2: you would call sub syndromeal seasonal effective disorder. She didn't

763
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 2: definitely didn't have major depression, but it was like she

764
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:17,400
Speaker 2: was impacted noticeably, and she found out about light boxes

765
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:18,920
Speaker 2: and got one and it helped her a lot.

766
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,840
Speaker 4: That's cool. I have friends that use these things just

767
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 4: for not even seasonal, just for you know, regular depression,

768
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 4: and they say it helps them out. Dawn stimulation is

769
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 4: another thing, and it's kind of the same idea, but

770
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 4: it's like one of those alarm clocks that slowly starts

771
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:39,760
Speaker 4: brightening your room over the course of like thirty minutes

772
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 4: or so as you're waking up, so again, tied into

773
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:45,799
Speaker 4: this circadian rhythm of rising with the sun's rise.

774
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 2: Do you remember that alarm clock from the seventies and

775
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 2: eighties that like it would light up. It had a

776
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:55,880
Speaker 2: picture of like I think, like a fence out in

777
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 2: the Old West, and the sky would go like dark blue.

778
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 2: It would like it would change the color of the

779
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 2: sky on the alarm clock picture depending on what time

780
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 2: of day it was. You don't remember those, no, I

781
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 2: don't they've ever seen that. They were amazing. My oldest

782
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 2: sister had one of those. I would love one. I

783
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:17,479
Speaker 2: don't know what happened to that, probably broke.

784
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 4: Yeah. My brother had one of those clocks, the alarm

785
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 4: clocks that had the like a rollodex. It would flip

786
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:27,319
Speaker 4: the numbers around like mechanically. Oh n yeah, those were fun.

787
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. The one I always had was like that.

788
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 4: Kind of oh man, no really yeah.

789
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 2: When I was a teenager, that's what I needed.

790
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 4: Or the two bells with the hammer.

791
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 2: I had one of those too.

792
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 4: Oh man.

793
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 2: There was a period where I had the one that

794
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 2: went I wouldn't do it, so I had to switch

795
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:46,399
Speaker 2: over to the two bells one.

796
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:49,279
Speaker 4: Oh, i'd be always had a hard time waking up

797
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 4: like that?

798
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, have I I don't anymore, but yes, I used

799
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 2: to when I was a teenager.

800
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 4: Well, because I get emails from you at like five

801
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 4: thirty in the morning. What the hell are you doing?

802
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:00,800
Speaker 4: You farming?

803
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:05,360
Speaker 2: I've seen I've milking the cows and email at the

804
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 2: same time. Sometimes I have decided that getting up at

805
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 2: five is way too early for me. So good, I'm

806
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 2: doing six.

807
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:15,760
Speaker 4: Now, Hey, that's reasonable.

808
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:18,880
Speaker 2: It is seven sometimes if I'm feeling frisky.

809
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 4: They had a really late night the night before.

810
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:23,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, I went to bed at ten.

811
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:28,240
Speaker 4: We should mention vitamin D speaking of cows, because vitamin

812
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:32,640
Speaker 4: D deficiency does correlate with a more likelihood of having

813
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 4: or developing SAD. But they haven't found any like good, hard,

814
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:40,319
Speaker 4: consistent evidence that vitamin D supplements can help a lot.

815
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 2: There's one place. Remember you said that high latitudes. Yeah,

816
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 2: the higher the latitude, the more negative the attitude, right,

817
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 2: the likelier you are to have seasonal a factor of

818
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 2: disorder that does not hold true at least in some parts,

819
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 2: some of the most extremely northern parts the world. In

820
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:06,360
Speaker 2: particular's a town called trumsa Norway that is very northern.

821
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:10,319
Speaker 2: It might be the most northernmost city in Norway. It's

822
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 2: really high up there. Suffice to say that they are

823
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:17,360
Speaker 2: absent from sunlight. I think two full months out of

824
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 2: the year. Oh man, like nothing, nothing like the sun

825
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:23,920
Speaker 2: comes out. I mean, I think it might get as

826
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 2: much as it would get like before sunrise on a

827
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:30,720
Speaker 2: normal day, And they go like that for two months.

828
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 2: And yet the rates of seasonal effective disorder are much

829
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 2: less in Trums of that than you would expect.

830
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, it seems to be because they've done just sort

831
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:46,560
Speaker 4: of studies and questionnaires, and people there agree with statements

832
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:48,879
Speaker 4: like I love the coziness of the winter months. Winter

833
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:52,479
Speaker 4: brings many wonderful seasonal changes. They don't agree with winter

834
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 4: is boring when winter is limiting. So it seems to

835
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,279
Speaker 4: really be a lot about the attitude. And you know,

836
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:01,759
Speaker 4: I think if you live there, a lot of people

837
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:04,320
Speaker 4: probably don't just move there. It seems to be a

838
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 4: place where you're usually from. Or maybe people do move

839
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 4: to one of the most northernmost cities in the world.

840
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 4: I'm sure it happens, but generally, if you have grown

841
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 4: up in a place and that's the thing. Everyone knows

842
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:18,359
Speaker 4: that's the thing, and so there are probably many many

843
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:22,600
Speaker 4: events and traditions and activities that they do to thwart that.

844
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 4: And it seems to work because they get into their skiing,

845
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:29,839
Speaker 4: they get into their winter hiking, they get into their

846
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:33,320
Speaker 4: cozy drinks and their warm blankets and their fireplaces, and

847
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 4: it seems to be that they look forward to that

848
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:38,719
Speaker 4: stuff and it bears out by them not having a

849
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:39,759
Speaker 4: prevalence of sad there.

850
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 2: It's kind of interesting, yeah, And some people point to

851
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 2: that as evidence. They say that there's no such thing

852
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 2: as sad. That just does not make sense. If sad

853
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:53,799
Speaker 2: is this response to biological imperative that happens every year

854
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 2: among people who are maladjusted for that imperative, then that's

855
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 2: just not be the way in TRUMSA And there was

856
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 2: actually a study from twenty sixteen from researchers at Auburn Montgomery,

857
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 2: the University of Auburn and Montgomery, and they studied CDC

858
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 2: data and they found no seasonal variations in depression symptoms

859
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 2: and it was a massive population that they studied. I mean,

860
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:25,920
Speaker 2: if there is such a thing as seasonal effective disorder,

861
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:29,279
Speaker 2: then there should be an increase in the winter months

862
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:32,200
Speaker 2: and they didn't find it. That does not seem to

863
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 2: be the consensus among the scientific community. As a matter

864
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 2: of fact, I wanted to go click on the link

865
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 2: in this Scientific American article that we were checking out

866
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:45,880
Speaker 2: that exploded. It was gone. It couldn't find it.

867
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 4: Oh wow.

868
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 2: So it made me wonder if they quietly retracted it,

869
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:53,560
Speaker 2: or maybe it was just a broken link. It never

870
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 2: can tell. But for the most part, if you look

871
00:47:56,560 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 2: up seasonal effective disorder, every reliable website in America like

872
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 2: Johns Hopkins or Harvard Health or Cleveland Clinic, Mayo Clinic,

873
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 2: I could keep going. They are they all are all

874
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:13,239
Speaker 2: all in non seasonal effective disorder.

875
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:17,360
Speaker 4: I'm now I'm picturing just like a couple of scientists

876
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 4: in a ditch being shoveled over with lime.

877
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 2: So just one thing before we stop. It has nothing

878
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 2: to do with Norway, really, but it reminded me. I

879
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:32,920
Speaker 2: saw a there's a good true crime. I don't know

880
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:35,200
Speaker 2: if it's a docudrama, but it's based on real life

881
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 2: and it's Danish. It's called The Investigation. It's so mellow,

882
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 2: The Investigation.

883
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:45,799
Speaker 4: I love those I love story set in those parts

884
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 4: of the world. I love Danish filmmaking and Norwegian filmmaking.

885
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:52,399
Speaker 2: You'll love it out. It's like there's at least one

886
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 2: episode where almost the entire time nothing happens, and they

887
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:59,279
Speaker 2: just show nothing happening. It's it's but it's really good.

888
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:02,560
Speaker 2: It's really in growth, so I would recommend it. Awesome,

889
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 2: Chuck said, Awesome. That means he just triggered the first

890
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:11,759
Speaker 2: listener mail of twenty twenty six. Everybody, that's right.

891
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:13,840
Speaker 4: This is from Megan and Michigan. Hey, guys, thank you

892
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 4: for the many years of engaging in interesting content. I

893
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:18,400
Speaker 4: first started listening in twenty twelve when I moved out

894
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:21,680
Speaker 4: of my home state and would download episodes onto CDs.

895
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 2: Nice. Wow, that is why I love old.

896
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:28,839
Speaker 4: Well, this will make you feel old too, to pass

897
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:31,240
Speaker 4: the time on the long drives in my old Cavalier.

898
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:32,120
Speaker 2: Wow.

899
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 4: Wow, they don't still make the Cavalier, do they.

900
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 2: I don't believe so. No. I think they buried them

901
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 2: with those Auburn and Montgomery well twenty twelve.

902
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:43,759
Speaker 4: I'ms probably wasn't in the camery. I just listened to

903
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 4: your Dolls episode. Guys. I had to write in I

904
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 4: have three kids and they have at times acted out

905
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:50,359
Speaker 4: scenarios with dolls and toys that would have been very

906
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 4: disturbing if I had not been prepared that it was

907
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:55,440
Speaker 4: very normal and healthy. Actually, the most recent example is

908
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 4: when my five year old came into the house and

909
00:49:57,040 --> 00:49:58,919
Speaker 4: told me that he and his three year old sister

910
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:02,080
Speaker 4: had made gravestones in the backyard because their twin baby

911
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 4: dolls had died. Oh my, even knowing it's normal, I

912
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 4: do have to take a deep breath and remind myself

913
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 4: that part of raising emotionally healthy kids as letting the

914
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:13,480
Speaker 4: process through play. Still, I was a bit relieved the

915
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:16,800
Speaker 4: next day, and they threw a big party the babies

916
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:19,680
Speaker 4: first birthday. So she skips out the part where they

917
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:22,359
Speaker 4: dug them off out if they exhumed them from the grave.

918
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:26,040
Speaker 4: Thanks again for bringing so many topics and perspectives to

919
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:29,040
Speaker 4: light while somehow keeping things humorous and upbeat. Looking forward

920
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:31,680
Speaker 4: to learning more in twenty twenty six. That is Megan

921
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:32,360
Speaker 4: and Michigan.

922
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:34,640
Speaker 2: Nice Megan, thank you for that. That was a great,

923
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 2: great email, and God bless your kids for being awesome.

924
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 4: For sure.

925
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:41,080
Speaker 2: If you want to be like Meghan and tell us

926
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:43,759
Speaker 2: about your awesome kids, we love that kind of thing.

927
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 2: You could send it off to Stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio

928
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:54,879
Speaker 2: dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

929
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 4: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app

930
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:08,240
Speaker 4: Apple Podcasts, wherever you listen to your favorite shows. MHM.