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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and you're listening to stuff. Mom

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Speaker 1: never told you. It's the season of ghost, witches and costumes. AK.

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Speaker 1: Halloween AK my personal favorite holiday. So we have some

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Speaker 1: classics on ghosts and whiches in costumes coming up for you.

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Speaker 1: This first one has quite the intriguing title, Can You

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Speaker 1: Have Sex with a Ghost? And No, it's not just

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Speaker 1: analysis of that scene from Ghost with Patrick Sazy and

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Speaker 1: Me Moore, which is a movie I've never watched, but

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Speaker 1: I know all about that scene. No, it's about succubi,

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Speaker 1: incubi and ghost. I got to play a succubist once

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Speaker 1: in a forty hour Film Festival short film and it

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Speaker 1: was the best. It was so fun. This episode also

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Speaker 1: looks sleep paralysis and how that might play into all

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Speaker 1: of this. As someone who has experienced sleep paralysis before,

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Speaker 1: it is terrifying. In fact, the first time I experienced

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Speaker 1: sleep paralysis, I thought leather Face from Texas Chainsaw Mask.

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Speaker 1: Her was above my bed, chains all overhead. And the

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Speaker 1: second time it was the woman. How I pictured the

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Speaker 1: witch from the Blair Witch Project. You never seen in

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Speaker 1: the movie, but how I pictured her hovering over my

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Speaker 1: bed and feeling this overwhelming, terrifying sensation that she wanted

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Speaker 1: to eat my heart. Perhaps I watched too many horror movies.

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Speaker 1: If after you listen to this episode you're looking for

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Speaker 1: a creepy documentary on sleep prows As. Speaking of scary movies,

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Speaker 1: there's one of Netflix that regularly comes up if you

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Speaker 1: type in scariest movies on Netflix, which I do at

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Speaker 1: least once a month anyway, and the spirit of the season,

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Speaker 1: we present to you this classic episode, can You Have

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Speaker 1: Sex with a Ghost? Welcome to Stuff Mom Never told

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Speaker 1: you from All Stop Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome

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Speaker 1: to the podcast, and Happy Halloween. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline.

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Speaker 1: So it's ghost Day. It is um and so we

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Speaker 1: decided we would talk about ghosts. We tweeted a few

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Speaker 1: weeks ago that we needed to come up with a

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Speaker 1: Halloween topic, and I forget the verbatim tweet response, but

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Speaker 1: it was something along the lines of gender differences with ghosts.

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Speaker 1: So I started looking some stuff up and quickly came across,

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Speaker 1: uh a pop music story that probably a lot of

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Speaker 1: folks will have heard about, and it's about a certain

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Speaker 1: certain lady named Keshra You mean dollar Sign? Yes? Yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: she she in an interview. Well, she called into Ryan

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Speaker 1: seacrest show, which I'm very credible, and she said that

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Speaker 1: she'd had sex with a ghost and that experience inspired

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Speaker 1: her song Supernatural. Yeah, and she explained it to Ryan Seacrest. Thus, Lee,

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Speaker 1: it's about experiences with a supernatural but in a sexy way.

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Speaker 1: I had a couple of experiences with a supernatural. I

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Speaker 1: don't know his name. He was a ghost. I'm very

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Speaker 1: open to it. That's a direct quote. I hope she

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Speaker 1: said it like that. Yeah, and it kind of you know,

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Speaker 1: you gotta give it to Kesha a k A dollars

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Speaker 1: side for coming out and and saying, hey, guess what

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Speaker 1: I wrote a song. It's about the time I had

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Speaker 1: sex with a ghost. Yeah, because that obviously happened, because

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Speaker 1: well it obviously happened because it happened to Anaticle Smith too,

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Speaker 1: who was another very credible source back in the day.

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Speaker 1: She she claimed that a ghost climbed up her leg

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Speaker 1: and had sex with her, and she was like, oh

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Speaker 1: my god, it was so scary. And then I was like, well,

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Speaker 1: you're not hurting me and it's kind of nice, so

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Speaker 1: let's just keep doing this. So, uh, you know, if

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Speaker 1: it seems kind of laughable. Oh, Kesha had sex with

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Speaker 1: a ghost? Ha. But one of the first um search

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Speaker 1: results I found was from our company affiliates over at

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Speaker 1: Discovery News that did a little bit of digging into

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Speaker 1: ghosts sex. And you know what, ghost sex this is

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Speaker 1: not just something that that you know, pop pop stars

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Speaker 1: claim here and there. This ghost sex has been going

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Speaker 1: on for quite a while. So we decided that since

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Speaker 1: it's Halloween and what better topic could there be for

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Speaker 1: stuff Mom never told you to talk about? Then well,

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Speaker 1: can you have sex with a ghost? Should you use

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Speaker 1: ghosts condos? Uh? You probably shouldn't have sex with the

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Speaker 1: ghost if you can help it. But the thing is

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Speaker 1: you can't help it. Nope, these spirits will have their

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Speaker 1: way with you. Yeah, a lot of times, like the

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Speaker 1: ghost sex is not consensual, but I don't want to

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Speaker 1: get I don't want to get ahead of myself because

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Speaker 1: then on the other on the other side of it,

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Speaker 1: you have people who are into ghost sex. Like I

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Speaker 1: would say Kesha would fall into this category because she

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Speaker 1: said that she she was really enjoying her ghost sex

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Speaker 1: and even wrote a song about it. Um and this

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Speaker 1: is referred to as spectrophilia. Yeah, well, basically yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: it's across cultures, the idea of this ghost that can

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Speaker 1: come attack you in the night sexually. Um. There are

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Speaker 1: Arabian jin's, the Greeks had the Stader's Hindu boots and Celtic.

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Speaker 1: I hope I pronounce it right, doucy. And then this

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Speaker 1: was my this is my favorite form of these spirits,

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Speaker 1: the sexy spirits that we found. Medieval Chinese and Japanese

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Speaker 1: female spirits would take the form of foxes, and they

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Speaker 1: were thought to visit, seduce, and later kill lonely bachelor's,

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Speaker 1: particularly scholars. So beware the fox in the night, I suppose,

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Speaker 1: as you're writing with your quill. Pigs. Um, But they're okay.

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Speaker 1: So so they we we have all these different forms

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Speaker 1: of them, and very quickly this becomes a major concern

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Speaker 1: for the church, the Capital ce Church, the Christian Church. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: originally it wasn't such a big deal if you had

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Speaker 1: a nighttime sexy time dream, because in the medieval period

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Speaker 1: a lot of theorists were arguing that nocturnal sexual encounters

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Speaker 1: were just dreams, no big deal. But that'll changed in

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Speaker 1: fourteen eighties six when the text Mallius Maleficarum a k a.

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Speaker 1: The Hammer of Witches was public. Yeah, we go from

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Speaker 1: saying like, hey, okay, you have a sex dream. Well

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Speaker 1: that's fine, it's just like a simple indulgence. You can't

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Speaker 1: help it. It just happened. And then this idea of

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Speaker 1: the of the ghosts coming back to have sex. It

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Speaker 1: was kind of comforting that even after death there was

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Speaker 1: a chance to have physical pleasure once again. But then

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Speaker 1: in four eighties six, all that is thrown out the window.

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Speaker 1: And it's it's kind of funny because at first, in

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Speaker 1: in the medieval period period, the theorists had it right

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Speaker 1: saying like, oh, these are just dreams, and the church

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Speaker 1: is like, no, no, no, these are legitimate demons and ghosts.

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Speaker 1: And the Malius Maleficarum has a section that explains that

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Speaker 1: sex with the unknown is inherently evil and a sign

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Speaker 1: that you are fraternizing with Satan. Yeah, and these city

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Speaker 1: spirits have a name, and you've probably heard them. I've

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Speaker 1: heard them. One is a terrible band uh Incubus and succubus. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is a quote from Malius Maleficarum. Here follows the

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Speaker 1: way whereby which is copulate with those devils known as incubi.

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Speaker 1: That's a good creepy voice for Halloween, I know, practicing

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Speaker 1: ultric a triatas. But yes, So the incubus was the

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Speaker 1: male ghost and the succubus was the female ghost. So

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Speaker 1: named because the incubus was on top and the succubus

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Speaker 1: would be underneath, and sometimes the incubus in the succubus

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Speaker 1: would be sort of be the same, the same entity,

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Speaker 1: but just going through different phases. For instance, John Klein,

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Speaker 1: who's a clinical psychologist and a professor at Yale, talks

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Speaker 1: about in certain medieval lore, the incubus would come along

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Speaker 1: impregnate a woman in a very Rosemary's Baby esque kind

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Speaker 1: of way, who would then give birth to a succubus

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Speaker 1: that would then attack a male victim, and once in

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Speaker 1: possession of that male victim sperm, the succubus would take

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Speaker 1: on a male form. That's becoming an incubus again. And

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Speaker 1: the circle of life you come, full demonic circle. Yeah, full,

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Speaker 1: full circle indeed. So Okay, what's going on? Are we really?

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Speaker 1: Are we really getting attacked by ghosts at night? Well? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because this is not just something that that stays in

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Speaker 1: medieval times, and it's not just something that that popped

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Speaker 1: up with uh with Kesha. These nighttime ghostly um experiences

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Speaker 1: I'm putting experiences in big giant quotes right now are

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Speaker 1: still common. Yeah. Well it has a lot to do

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Speaker 1: with what your brain is doing when you're asleep, because

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Speaker 1: have you ever had a sleepy time experience that you

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Speaker 1: feel is just so vivid? You wake up and you're like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, Brad Pitt and I are getting married,

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Speaker 1: or you know, you just feel like something's holding you down,

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Speaker 1: or you feel like you're falling, or you're twitching weird,

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Speaker 1: or you're having sex with a ghost or you're having

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Speaker 1: sex with a ghost. Well, this is all sleep paralysis stuff.

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Speaker 1: And I've had sleep paralysis before. I haven't it's usually

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Speaker 1: UM corresponding with narcilepsy and there's some other stuff going on.

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Speaker 1: I have never had an ecailepsy, but I have had

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Speaker 1: sleep paralysis, which is basically you um are awake more

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Speaker 1: than you should be during rem sleep when your muscles

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Speaker 1: are turned off, so you're kind of conscious, but you

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Speaker 1: cannot move. And so I've gotten this feeling before, like

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Speaker 1: there's someone in the room and they want me to

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Speaker 1: come do something, and my my brain process is like

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Speaker 1: hang on, hang on, I can't get up, and you

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Speaker 1: do start to feel kind of afraid, like Okay, well

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Speaker 1: someone's in the room and I need to get up

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Speaker 1: and move, but I can't. And so it's this whole

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Speaker 1: idea of sleep paralysis and hallucinations while you're in that

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Speaker 1: kind of twilight in between stage that have led to

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Speaker 1: a lot of superstitions and believing in spirits attacking you

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Speaker 1: in your sleep. Yeah, there's a name for this, uh,

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Speaker 1: the old Hag syndrome. Uh, this idea that it's an

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Speaker 1: old hag that comes and sits on your chest, which

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Speaker 1: is why you can't move. And folklorist David J. Hufford

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Speaker 1: did a bunch of research on this and he he

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Speaker 1: thought when he was doing this research that it would,

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Speaker 1: you know, he would find like a few people, but

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Speaker 1: it ballooned into this giant project because he found that

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Speaker 1: about fifteen percent of people this is written about in

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Speaker 1: his book The Terror That Comes in the nightcent of

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Speaker 1: people experience being assaulted in their sleep by an unknown

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Speaker 1: entity at some point in their lives, probably as a

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Speaker 1: result of sleep paralysis. And now Kristen mentioned the old

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Speaker 1: hag phenomenon. This is not necessary. Only the same time,

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Speaker 1: that's the same idea as having sex with with a

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Speaker 1: ghost or some entity in your sleep. The old hag phenomenon,

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Speaker 1: as it's known through North America and England, is more

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Speaker 1: like the feeling that something terrifying is pressing down on

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Speaker 1: you while you're sleeping. So it does kind of tie

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Speaker 1: into the idea of the incubus in that way, because

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Speaker 1: it's supposedly on top of you, trying to suffocate you

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Speaker 1: when you're sleep. Yeah, and since it is also Halloween, um,

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Speaker 1: I feel like it is necessary to point out too

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Speaker 1: that should you be ghost hunting tonight, uh, you should

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Speaker 1: abstain from having sex. Just go to sleep you might

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Speaker 1: encounter an old hag. Okay, but you really uh one

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Speaker 1: of the rules. I did not know this before doing

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Speaker 1: this research, but ghost hunters are encouraged to abstain from

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Speaker 1: sex after they go ghost hunting because they're at high

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Speaker 1: risk of having their genitals possessed. I'm not making this

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Speaker 1: up now, I edit to just um of having their

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Speaker 1: genitals possessed by the ghosts that they hunt. And this

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Speaker 1: is coming from an article written by Karen stoles now

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Speaker 1: over at the Commitical. The Committee for Skeptical Inquiry and Um.

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Speaker 1: She goes on to quote Marianna Chatelaine Moresby. He's talking

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Speaker 1: about this potential danger associated with ghost hunting. Quote, many

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Speaker 1: male ghost hunters are prone to such anal ghost intrusions

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Speaker 1: and possessions. So you wanna you wanna wait, you know yah,

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Speaker 1: don't immediately go infecting your partner with ghost well and

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Speaker 1: also speaking of this is going to be the weirdest

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Speaker 1: transition I've probably ever made on this podcast. But speaking

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Speaker 1: of anal probes. Also from this article the Skeptics Dictionary,

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Speaker 1: the author Robert Carroll talks about how he thinks that

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Speaker 1: alien abduction, these ideas, the more modern day ideas that

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Speaker 1: we have of of alien abductions, are modern day versions

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Speaker 1: of ghost sex because so often the purported victims will

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Speaker 1: claim sexual abuse and anal probing. So maybe alien abductions

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Speaker 1: are the twenty first century ghost sex. Yeah. Intriguing. Um.

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Speaker 1: The Skeptical Inquirer in March had an article about the

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Speaker 1: spectrophilia of which we speak and they made an interesting

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Speaker 1: point and I think this this ties along with the

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Speaker 1: Church's finger wagging of ghost sex. Uh. They write that

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Speaker 1: attributing sexual dreams or sexual thoughts to a supernatural force

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Speaker 1: is a guiltless absolution for those with moral objections. And

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Speaker 1: so maybe back in the day those priests were having

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Speaker 1: sexy time dreams and we're like, oh, I didn't know,

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Speaker 1: I didn't do anything. It was a demon, right. But however,

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Speaker 1: if you're a woman back in the day who thinks

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Speaker 1: that you had spirit sex, you might be a witch

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Speaker 1: and you might be burned for it. Now I should

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Speaker 1: point out to possibly new listeners out there, Uh, we

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Speaker 1: are not speaking this as offering this as scientific fact

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Speaker 1: that ghosts come around and have sex with people. There

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Speaker 1: are a lot of these articles even in um you know,

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Speaker 1: on on skeptic sites will say, hey, you know what,

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Speaker 1: there there has been no there's no proof that anyone

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Speaker 1: who's that that an incubus or a succubus actually exist.

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Speaker 1: And it is like we talked about attributed now to

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Speaker 1: sleep paralysis, because it turns out those medieval theorists. If

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Speaker 1: we had just listened to the medieval theorists who said,

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Speaker 1: yes on the one thing, that it's all in our

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Speaker 1: brains making dreams, um, then then that that's all it is.

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Speaker 1: We we would could have saved ourselves. Um. But then

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have all of this this folklore to talk about

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Speaker 1: for Halloween. Um and speaking of Halloween to James McLennan

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Speaker 1: and Emily Edwards Uh published an article in the journal

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Speaker 1: Southern Folklore in looking at whether or not um horror

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Speaker 1: movies and instances of ghost sex or assault in Halloween

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Speaker 1: horror movies might influence the number of reports anecdotal reports

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Speaker 1: of ghost sex, and they did not find a strong

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Speaker 1: connection between the two. Yeah. I mean there could be

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Speaker 1: some degree of suggestion, because people all the world over

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Speaker 1: experience this, you know, it's not just like a certain

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Speaker 1: group of people feel this intense sensation when they're sleeping.

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Speaker 1: But so maybe hearing this folklore, you might be like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: well maybe maybe something kind of paranormal happened, right, because

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Speaker 1: there was, um, what was it about sleep paralysis that

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Speaker 1: in Mexico there was one study finding the like of

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Speaker 1: the kids in the you know, this population that they

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Speaker 1: had surveyed knew this colloquial term for what we would

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Speaker 1: call old Hag syndrome. Yeah, and I think it was

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Speaker 1: something like a dead person holding you down. Yeah, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was something like that. Um. So, and it's and

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Speaker 1: that's kind of interesting to see, Like how how it

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Speaker 1: is such a cross cultural um thing. Well, yeah, when

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Speaker 1: something freaky happens to you and you feel like you're

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Speaker 1: sure of something, like okay, well I'm sure that was

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Speaker 1: a stronger feeling than I have in my normal dreams.

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Speaker 1: Like it's not just a normal dream where you're doing

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Speaker 1: whatever you're doing. It's like you you actually are feeling

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Speaker 1: something and maybe hallucinating at the same time because you're

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Speaker 1: in that twilight rim stage where you shouldn't be awake

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Speaker 1: because everything is supposed to be switched off. Maybe you

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Speaker 1: have evidence of arousal and you wake up and you're like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: something's been going on when I've been asleep because I

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Speaker 1: really felt something. Yeah. But I mean, if anything, though,

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Speaker 1: we can take come ft on the spookiest of days

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Speaker 1: that it is. It's just our brain playing tricks on us.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe Kesha does have some portal to

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Speaker 1: the afterlife, or maybe it's a fox in the night.

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Speaker 1: I love that their fox is attacking. Well I'm not

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Speaker 1: the attacking part, but foxes seeking out, uh scholarly Batchel laws,

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Speaker 1: so watch yourself. Yeah, oh man, I got a soft

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Speaker 1: spot for some folk lore gotta love it. Um. So uh,

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Speaker 1: now do we ask for ghost sex stories? Yes, have

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Speaker 1: you ever had sex with a ghost? You get sleep paralysis? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the old hag syndrome. I'm sure there's got to be

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Speaker 1: people out there who have experienced that feeling of someone, um,

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Speaker 1: someone sitting on your chest or someone being in the room.

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Speaker 1: I also know people who have who have felt like

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Speaker 1: they have sensed ghosts around. There was oh man, uh

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Speaker 1: sort of on a on a side note, um, speaking

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Speaker 1: of ghost sex. We hear a lot about ghosts coming

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Speaker 1: to have sex with living humans, But last year there

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Speaker 1: was in a small town in Ohio, there was a

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Speaker 1: report of a woman who was upset because she kept

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Speaker 1: seeing two ghosts in her house having sex with each other.

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Speaker 1: And a para psychologist who was interviewed was like, what

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Speaker 1: we never hear. You know, ghosts never want to have

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Speaker 1: sex with other ghosts. Yeah, that was funny. There was

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Speaker 1: a lot a lot written about that in that article,

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Speaker 1: just about like, well maybe they knew each other, and

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Speaker 1: you know, ghosts are just imprints of energy, and so

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Speaker 1: maybe something really intense happened on your couch time ago,

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Speaker 1: and so the ghosts have found their way back. Oh,

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Speaker 1: ghosts you'll romantic or pervy, your choice. I don't know

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Speaker 1: about you, Caroline. I'm gonna go head out and find

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Speaker 1: as much fun sized candy as possible to eat should

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Speaker 1: be on sale. Yeah, and I'll probably have to take

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Speaker 1: a nap by three o'clock. Um. But now, oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: ghost stories, please send them our way. Yeah, we want

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Speaker 1: to know if you've encountered any ghosts, whether they're having

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Speaker 1: sex or not. Yeah. Mom, stuff at Discovery dot com

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Speaker 1: for all of your spookey letters and on to our letters.

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Speaker 1: So we've got a couple of emails here about our

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Speaker 1: episode on fem phobia. And this is coming from Katie.

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Speaker 1: My daughter already has some gender issues at four years old.

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Speaker 1: I have a little girl who likes plenty of quote

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Speaker 1: unquote boy things like catching snakes and bugs, digging in

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Speaker 1: the dirt, and climbing trees. But she also likes plenty

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Speaker 1: of quote unquote girl things, like playing dressed up and

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Speaker 1: playing with baby dolls. My approach has always been to

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Speaker 1: just let her be herself and not talk to her

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Speaker 1: too much about boy slash girls stuff. I have vowed

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Speaker 1: also to never call her a tomboy, because I think

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Speaker 1: that is a limiting label. I agree, she right now

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Speaker 1: is in a total pink obsession that was largely sparked

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Speaker 1: because some of the boys that are pre school told

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Speaker 1: her that because she has a bob and wore a purple,

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Speaker 1: sparkly shirt and also has a Batman logo on it,

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Speaker 1: all that's really cute, that she must be a boy

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Speaker 1: and that the only way to be a girl is

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Speaker 1: to wear pink. This of course disturbs me too, and

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Speaker 1: I've had plenty of discussions with her about how girls

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Speaker 1: can wear whatever color they want and about how my

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Speaker 1: favorite color is blue, but she insists on wearing mostly pink.

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Speaker 1: I tell her that as long as she truly likes pink,

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Speaker 1: it's just fine for her to wear it while also

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Speaker 1: trying to model a more open gender identity. I think

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Speaker 1: that's the thing that bothers me most about fem phobia.

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Speaker 1: It puts femininity in a box. I don't see a

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Speaker 1: whole lot of difference between a little preschool boy telling

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Speaker 1: my daughter she's not a girl enough because she wore

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Speaker 1: a Batman shirt and some blogger telling women they are

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Speaker 1: not woman enough because they're wearing pink and sparkles. We

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Speaker 1: are all women we are mostly born that way. I

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Speaker 1: don't need to show that I'm a woman by conforming

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Speaker 1: to your narrow definition of good enough woman. When we

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Speaker 1: get into a big argument about what being a woman means,

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Speaker 1: we make it harder for women to be free to

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Speaker 1: just be themselves whatever that is. No matter what narrow

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Speaker 1: definition you give to womanhood, some women are not going

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Speaker 1: to fit into it, So stop trying to define it

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Speaker 1: and just accept people for who they are. I agree,

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Speaker 1: as long as your costume is nice and warm. Yes. Um.

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Speaker 1: This one is from Jocelyn. Also on our Fimphobia episode,

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Speaker 1: she says that she encounters fimphobia almost every time she

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Speaker 1: gets to know someone new, especially a guy. So she says,

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Speaker 1: I'm twenty years old studying finance, a traditionally male dominated

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Speaker 1: field at Arizona State. I'm sweet and outgoing. I have

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Speaker 1: blonde hair and blue eyes. I love to shop, I

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Speaker 1: love to bake, and I wear high heels and a

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Speaker 1: skirt or dress almost every single day. On the surface,

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Speaker 1: I look extremely feminine. Because of this, men in the

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Speaker 1: finance industry and in my classes have treated me differently

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Speaker 1: when people find out that I'm intelligent. Graduating college a

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Speaker 1: year and a half early, got a full ride scholarship,

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Speaker 1: have been working full time for almost four years to

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Speaker 1: completely support myself. Have a fantasy football team, or anything

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Speaker 1: about me that is not ultra feminine like my outward

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Speaker 1: appearance suggested would be. People are shocked. The fact that

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Speaker 1: people are surprised by these things in comparison to my

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Speaker 1: outward appearance goes to show that femininity is related to weakness, vulnerability,

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Speaker 1: and has nothing to do with strength, power, initiative, independence,

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Speaker 1: and intelligence. Yes, it's true that women have almost equal

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Speaker 1: rights now and that women for the most part are

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Speaker 1: treated equally technically speaking, but when it comes when it

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Speaker 1: really comes down to it, you can see that feminine

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Speaker 1: women are still perceived as inferior by both men and

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Speaker 1: nonfeminine women. I don't understand this concept. I believe being

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Speaker 1: a feminist and being a woman embracing her woman nous

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Speaker 1: can come in so many different forms. I just so

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Speaker 1: happened to embrace my feminine appearance. I believe that regardless

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Speaker 1: of your appearance, that is, how you carry yourself and

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Speaker 1: what you do that are ultimately the factors that decide

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Speaker 1: whether or not you are a woman or a girl. Woman.

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Speaker 1: So thank you, Jocelyn, and good luck graduating early. You

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Speaker 1: go girl scholarship. That's impressive, and thanks everybody who's written

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Speaker 1: into mom Stuff at Discovery dot com. You can find

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Speaker 1: us on Facebook, where I totally encourage you to go

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Speaker 1: post your Halloween costume pictures, and you can tweet us

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Speaker 1: as well at mom Stuff Podcast, and you can follow

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Speaker 1: us on tumbler stuff mom Never Told You dot tumbler

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Speaker 1: dot com. And as if that is not enough, you

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Speaker 1: can go learn all about Halloween traditions over at our website,

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Speaker 1: It's how stuff works dot com. For more on this

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Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics, is it how stuff works

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Speaker 1: dot com