1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 2: As frequent listeners know, we record this on Thursdays generally, 3 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 2: and apparently we're going to get a biblically bad storm 4 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:19,640 Speaker 2: this weekend in the New York City area. 5 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: And you are like, yes, yeah. 6 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 2: I feel like we had a real storm this past weekend, 7 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:28,479 Speaker 2: and it was like criminally under hypes. I had no 8 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 2: idea what was coming. 9 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: I was also surprised by the snow. I used to 10 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:34,839 Speaker 1: like snow a lot more before I became a suburban 11 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: data and now it's like sho anymore. 12 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 2: Burrow into your heart, try to find that childlike joy 13 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 2: I try. 14 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: I just pretty deeply buried under for chaos. Sure, sure, 15 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: you don't have to shovel the snow. I was telling 16 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: you before this, and you were like, you like gave 17 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: me the impression that you had like fifteen minutes of 18 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 1: a material on the snowstor on this weekend. 19 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 2: Mostly I just wanted to talk about like why was 20 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 2: no one Like there's been a lot of headlines like 21 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 2: first big snowstorm of the Mom Donnie era, and it's like, 22 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:10,279 Speaker 2: are we all just trying to forget that last weekend happened? 23 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 2: I feel like that was the first big snowstorm. 24 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:16,479 Speaker 1: Our colleague Joe wasn't that I was tunting about prediction markets. 25 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 2: For this, Oh, they're popping off. I'm sure this is 26 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:22,679 Speaker 2: the first time I've ever felt inclined to get involved 27 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 2: in a prediction market. 28 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:25,680 Speaker 1: View of that. 29 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, speaking of folks writing in, we have some 30 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 2: JP Morgan material to get through. The first is a correction, 31 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:40,559 Speaker 2: And I mistakenly said in last week's podcast that JP 32 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:44,199 Speaker 2: Morgan CEO Jamie Diamond did not attend the JP Morgan 33 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 2: Healthcare Conference which I attended, and I'm sorry I was 34 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 2: mistaken he was in attendance. You Well, The thing is, 35 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 2: I was like acutely aware of his presence last year 36 00:01:56,440 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 2: because we were recording in a hallway, which I guess 37 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 2: something I don't want to get myself into more correction territory. 38 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 2: But he was giving some sort of fireside or keynote 39 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 2: address and the hallway that we were in was somehow 40 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 2: on the route, so people were lining up behind us 41 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:17,359 Speaker 2: and it was like an enormous scene and everyone was 42 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:20,640 Speaker 2: talking about Jamie Diamond. So again I was keenly aware. 43 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 2: Didn't have that experience this year, so I assumed that 44 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 2: he didn't attend, but that was you know what assuming 45 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 2: does makes you make corrections on podcasts. We have another 46 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 2: JP do. 47 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 1: Before we do that, I'm going to say hello and 48 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: welcome to the Money Stuff podcast. Right, You're a weekly 49 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: podcast where we talk about stuff for that of the Money. 50 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:44,519 Speaker 1: I'm Matt Levine and I read the Money Stuff column 51 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 1: from Bloomberg Opinion. 52 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 2: And I'm Katie Greifeld, a reporter for Bloomberg News and 53 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 2: an anchor for Bloomberg Television. 54 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 1: What else you got on JP? Morgan? 55 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 2: Oh, I was just going to talk about the pub. 56 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: Of the pub. 57 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:08,799 Speaker 2: Is included in. 58 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 1: The banter, talk about it. 59 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 2: The banter this week is very long. 60 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: It's the it's the whole episode. It's just the weather 61 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 1: and the pub. Although they did get sued for d 62 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,799 Speaker 1: banking Donald Trump. Yeah on Thursday, which we should. 63 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:21,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll get there. 64 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: The pub. 65 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, the pub. Yeah. I'm excited going tonight at their office. 66 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:28,919 Speaker 1: It's been twenty percent of the content of this podcast. 67 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:31,799 Speaker 1: They have a pub at their office. Yes, your brand 68 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: new office. Yeah, you've given us some tights and figures. 69 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 2: About Yeah, I know so much about this office. 70 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: At that pub, they serve drinks although allegedly not before 71 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 1: were you a clock? I think we. 72 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 2: Said I'm on the air until five something after five. 73 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 2: I can't stress test that. 74 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: Yes, you will definitely get served at the JP Morgan Pub. 75 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 2: I hear the guinness is particularly excellent. 76 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 1: So do you hear that? 77 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 2: I have heard that you can get screen printed on 78 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 2: the foam the building itself. 79 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: No, Yeah, like you can get like Latart on your Guinness. 80 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, I've heard that. I've also I don't know if 81 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 2: this is true. I'm excited to find out that you 82 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 2: can get a screen printing of Jamie Diamond's face as 83 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 2: well on your Guinness. That's what I've heard. That's what 84 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:17,039 Speaker 2: I've heard. I'm gonna I'm going to check this. Yeah, 85 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 2: you will. 86 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 1: You will certainly order multiple Guinness. Yeah, yet every available 87 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 1: image printed on them? 88 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:28,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, photograph them if I can. If there's photography allowed, 89 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 2: the photography? Am I even allowed to say that I'm 90 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 2: going to the pub tonight? Well here by next week. 91 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: Issue another correction. You did not go to the podcast. 92 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 2: I'm pretty excited. I saw it the outside of it. 93 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 2: When of the pub. 94 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:48,600 Speaker 1: Inside the office, you saw the facade of the pub 95 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: of the town square in the middle of the Javi Worgon. 96 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 2: Office, exactly. 97 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 1: Excellent. 98 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 2: So now I'm. 99 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 1: Inside your way past the bell. 100 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's what I had in terms of JP 101 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:04,279 Speaker 2: Morgan content. But you're right, we should briefly talk about debate. 102 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't lawsuit, but like I gather from like 103 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 1: what I've read on the Bloomberg summary, I thot that 104 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 1: it's not long on law. 105 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, to recab President Donald Trump issuing JP Morgan and 106 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 2: Jamie Diamond himself for at least five billion dollars over 107 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 2: those allegations that it stopped offering him in his business's 108 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 2: banking services for political reasons, and they did for seven weeks. 109 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:34,679 Speaker 2: They closed accounts of Trump and his businesses. After January sixth, 110 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:35,679 Speaker 2: twenty twenty one. 111 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: Banks shot accounts for various reasons. Banks have gotten a 112 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,039 Speaker 1: lot of trouble for banking Jeffrey Epstein. They weren't like 113 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: co conspirators in his crimes. They were providing him banking services. 114 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:49,599 Speaker 1: And if you provide banking services to people who give 115 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 1: off red flags of committing crimes, then you get in 116 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 1: a lot of trouble. Right, and after January sixth, it 117 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 1: might have been reasonable for jpmore to think we don't 118 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: want to be involved in banking people who have been 119 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 1: involved in certain sorts of criminal activity, right, But that 120 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:15,239 Speaker 1: sort of criminal activity is now associated with a certain 121 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:17,160 Speaker 1: sort of politics, So you can say you were banking me, 122 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 1: de banking me because of politics rather than because of crime. 123 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's all. It's a little bit interesting when paired 124 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 2: with what happened to Brian moynihan at Davos. Brian Mornihan 125 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 2: didn't get past the velvet rep being the CEO of 126 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 2: Bank of America, the Ft. 127 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: Reported also in Victoria's d Banker. 128 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:41,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, the Ft reported that the White House excluded 129 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 2: Brian moynihan from a Davos reception that included the leaders 130 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 2: of other banks and financial institutions, and one of the 131 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:54,720 Speaker 2: reported reasons was potentially de banking. Yeah, the suspicion of 132 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:56,479 Speaker 2: d banking. Yeah, this is. 133 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: Like I was not a successful investment banker, and via 134 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 1: some level, well, I'm not a good financial journalist. Like, 135 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 1: no part of me wants to go to Davas, And 136 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 1: like if I happened to find myself at Davas, like 137 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 1: no part of me would want to go to the 138 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: Trump reception. But like that's that's the job, right, Like, 139 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: that's the job. 140 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 2: Well, Jamie Diamond was there. Jane Frasier was there. 141 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: Jamie Diamond was there. 142 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, I guess they had dinner and then 143 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 2: you know what. 144 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you about my week? 145 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, please, I have a meme cwin. Yes, you didn't 146 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 2: create it. 147 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 1: The opposite of haveing memequin. The memequin was foisted upon me. 148 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: Let me take a step back and tell this story. 149 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: So the guy named Steve Yager, who's a software developer, 150 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 1: launched this thing called gas Town, which is like a 151 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: AI coding vibe cooding situation. It's like open source software 152 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: that he announced and people liked and got a lot 153 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: of attention. And at some point he did that genor 154 00:07:57,680 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 1: first and at some point that in the last couple 155 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: of weeks, someone launched a meme coin called gas on 156 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:08,119 Speaker 1: a crypto platform. And the idea is, like, it's a 157 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: meme coin that has the same name as gas Town, 158 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: So if you like think that gastown is a cool project, 159 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 1: maybe you'll buy the meme coin. Like whatever, this classic 160 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 1: meme coin logic, there's no connection. The person who launched 161 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: it wasn't the guy who launched gas Town. It's just like, yeah, 162 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: I wants it on a platform. But the way this 163 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 1: platform works is that when the token trades, it generates 164 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 1: what they call royalties like trading piece and the royalties 165 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: you know, some like whatever, like one percent of the 166 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: trade volume or something, and the royalties a crue to someone. 167 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: When you launch the coin, you can designate who gets 168 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: the royalties, and the person who launched this coin said 169 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 1: the royalties would accrue to the developer who launched gas Town. 170 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 1: So there is a connection between the coin and the 171 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 1: open source project. The connection is that the coin generates 172 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: some money for the developer of the project, not because 173 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: he launched the coin, not because he had anything to 174 00:08:58,440 --> 00:08:59,839 Speaker 1: do with it, but just because they were like, we'll 175 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: get some of this money to him. 176 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:04,439 Speaker 2: It's sort of like a non consensual I mean, it's 177 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:05,119 Speaker 2: not exactly. 178 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:06,439 Speaker 1: What people used to call on air drop, but it's 179 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: related to the idea of an air drop in crypto, 180 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 1: where like someone just gives you a coin and they're like, oh, 181 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: you have this coin, right, and why do they do that? Well, 182 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: what happened here is that someone who was involved in 183 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: or at least owned some of the crypto tuging emailed 184 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 1: the developer and was like, hey, you have all these 185 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 1: royalties waiting for you. All you have to do is 186 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: like set up an account, connect your Twitter to the 187 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 1: crypto platform, and then. 188 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 2: Like you can withdraw buy Solana. 189 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: He had to open a Salona wallet to withdraw the money. 190 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:37,959 Speaker 1: So yeah, and he was like, that's weird. And then 191 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: he did it and he was like, oh wow, I 192 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: really got the money. 193 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 2: I love the excerpt that you included. 194 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he wrote. He was like, because it sounds 195 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: like a scam. It sounds like, yeah, just tho it's Alana, 196 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 1: while I didn't send it, but in fact it was 197 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 1: real apparently, and he withdrew something like seventy thousand dollars 198 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 1: of royalties and then here's the important thing. Then he 199 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: blogged about it, and he's got a big platform people 200 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 1: let gas down, and he bligged about it for apparently 201 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: a couple of reasons. One is that he thought it 202 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 1: was good. Hecalls it an engine that fuels creation, just 203 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 1: like the stock market. That is like, because this thing 204 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 1: is retroactively financing his open source software project. He thinks 205 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:19,959 Speaker 1: it's cool, right, It's like, this is a way to 206 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: fund projects through like crowd meme something something right, So 207 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:25,839 Speaker 1: one he thought it was cool and then too. The 208 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: other reason he blied about it is because that will 209 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:31,079 Speaker 1: get attention to it, which will one make the token 210 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 1: go up. And I think he ended up buying some 211 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:34,439 Speaker 1: of the token and to create more royalties for him. 212 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 1: So he actually wrote in his blog posts, allow me 213 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 1: to get Richard just by telling you about it. Yeah, 214 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 1: just like a good line. And so he did that 215 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 1: and I read about it because I thought that was 216 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 1: funny in various ways. He's not wrong that it's it's 217 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 1: a way to finance something something. I don't know that 218 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 1: it's a sustainable way to like fund a lot of projects, 219 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 1: but it is like in certain sort of crowdsourceing memei 220 00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: areas of the world, it's a way for people will 221 00:10:58,720 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: get money. 222 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 2: It almost months we have a Patreon. 223 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 1: It has some Patreon like elements. But let me tell 224 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 1: you like one reason that it is not like a Patriot, 225 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 1: which is that you got tens of thousands of dollars 226 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: out of this, but the market capital of the Clian 227 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 1: at some point I went from like kind of zero 228 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: to like forty million dollars in back down. You know, 229 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 1: the people who I think I have no proof of 230 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: this is like I just looking at the market dynamics. 231 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: The people I think made a lot of money on this. 232 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: The people who bought the coin cheap emailed him, We're like, hey, 233 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:27,719 Speaker 1: blog about this. He blogs about it, the coin goes up, 234 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: and they make a lot of money selling it. Right, 235 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: So it is not just a way to funnel money 236 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: to creators. It's a way to funnel money to creators 237 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 1: while also giving a lot of that money to the 238 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 1: people involved in the crypto trading. Sean Geteker wrote a 239 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 1: blog post about this with the title crypto grifters are 240 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: recruiting open source AI developers, which is I think closer 241 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:51,200 Speaker 1: to my view of it than like this is a 242 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 1: way to fuel creation. But in any case, it's interesting. 243 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: They called it meme coin venture capital, and like, you know, 244 00:11:57,440 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: as in regular venture capital, you know, the entrepreneurs get 245 00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: some of the money and the finance series get some 246 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 1: of the money. You can quibble over the split of. 247 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 2: That, and so how do you factor in about it? 248 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: Yes, and then someone launched one for me, of course, 249 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 1: so I wrote about that in my column the next day. 250 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 1: But I'm not going to name the coiner of the platform. 251 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: I do not want people trading the thing to generate 252 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 1: royalties for me, for reasons on the record. One of 253 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 1: them is you heard it here as a matter of 254 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 1: journalistic ethics and Bloomberg standards and everything like that, and 255 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: another is like, I'm not going to log into the thing, 256 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 1: like I'm not taking the money. But you know, there's 257 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: like supposedly ten thousand dollars in an account for me. 258 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 2: That is an okay, horse, you can do a lot 259 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 2: with that. 260 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:45,079 Speaker 1: I love that your conception of money is. 261 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 2: Just thinking, how do you think about what you can 262 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 2: do with ten thousand dollars? 263 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:54,560 Speaker 1: I don't, because like there's no part of you that 264 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:56,680 Speaker 1: it's tempted to get and spend this ten thousand dollars. 265 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 2: I mean, you'd have to put some work into it, 266 00:12:58,800 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 2: but I. 267 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: Don't know that's that much work. But it's like putting 268 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:01,959 Speaker 1: like passwords into some. 269 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 2: Oh no, into the horse, I mean to the horse. 270 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:07,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not going to buy a horse. No, it's 271 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: not my Well, you're not going to use of ten 272 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: thousand dollars. 273 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 2: You're not going to take the money. 274 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:12,319 Speaker 1: I'm not going to take the money. 275 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 2: I'm surprised there hasn't been some sort of matt Levine 276 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 2: meme coin. 277 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 1: There probably has been. Yeah, this is like the first 278 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 1: one that I know that like attempts to generate profits 279 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: for me personally. 280 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 2: So, yeah, there's something that I was wondering about as 281 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:28,679 Speaker 2: I was reading your initial. 282 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 1: I just want to be really clear, don't buy it. 283 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 2: Don't buy it. 284 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 1: I don't want you to assume me if you like, 285 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 1: don't buy it and then it goes up. But to 286 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 1: the extent you were buying it for reasons relating to 287 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 1: wanting to help me or thinking that I will talk 288 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 1: about it more like, don't buy it for those reasons. 289 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 1: I'm not going to talk about it more and I'm 290 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: not going to be helped by any aspect of it. 291 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 2: We'll speak. 292 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: I don't own it, you don't own it. I'm not 293 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: getting the royalties. No, I didn't launch it. I had 294 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 1: no involvement in it. All I've done is talk about it. 295 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 1: But I have not talked about it in an encouraging way. 296 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 2: No, no, a negative way. If you will speaking doing 297 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 2: something that I was wantondering about reading your initial entry. 298 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 2: When it comes to Gastown, let's say that he was 299 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 2: receiving no economic benefit from this meme coin and it 300 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 2: has no actual connection to gas Town. If that happened, 301 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 2: if you started a thing and then someone launched a 302 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 2: meme coin that is connected only a name, do you 303 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 2: have any sort of recourse, Like can you sue them 304 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 2: for trying to ride the popularity of your things? 305 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: I think it practically it's often hard to sue them. 306 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: It's came up a lot in NFTs, like people would 307 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 1: do NFTs like linked to other people's art. Yeah, you know, 308 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: because you're like an NT is like an online pointer 309 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 1: to an image, right, and you just take someone else's 310 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 1: image and then you're selling an NFT of it. People 311 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: I think have tried last But I think it's hard 312 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: because these are typically somewhat anonymous, these centralized platforms, and 313 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: like they're not Yeah, it's not an obvious person to sue, 314 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: And you know, I don't know. I mean, it seems 315 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 1: like it could in some circumstances be a copyright violation, 316 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 1: but like, yeah, you got to wait into like some 317 00:14:58,960 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: weird corners of the Internet. 318 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 2: What are you going to do? 319 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: What are you going to do? 320 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 2: I just love the phrase moonshot. Do I think it's 321 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 2: so romantic. Moonshot anyway, pay packages that is what we're 322 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 2: talking about specifically, Yeah, so romantic. 323 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: There's a Boss Journal story about an equilar study of 324 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 1: let me try to do the math here. There's some 325 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 1: CEOs who got moonshot compensation packages, which they defined as 326 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 1: compensation packages that had like a notional value of at 327 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 1: least ten thousand horses. 328 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 2: That's really funny. I really had a thousand horses. 329 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: Or one hundred million dollars. I hope I did the 330 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 1: math right. It used to be that the CEOs got 331 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: paid millions of dollars, and now there's a new vogue 332 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: for paying them in a form that sort of looks 333 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 1: like zero ish dollars plus a bajillion dollars if they 334 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 1: hit some very aggressive growth in stock price targets over 335 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 1: like some long period of time. The idea is like, one, 336 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: it's like a long term alignment of incentives, and two 337 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: it is incentives to like do a lot right. So 338 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: it's not just like steadily grow profits. It's like transform 339 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: the company or make it huge. And this is like 340 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: probably wasn't invented at Tesla, but it's very Tesla, right, 341 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 1: Like Tesla in twenty eighteen gave Elon Musk like a 342 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 1: people throw on the number of fifty six billion. I think, like, 343 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: you know, give him some tens of billions of dollar 344 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 1: package if he grew the company ten x and then 345 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 1: he did, and then they gave him the money, and 346 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: then they've talked about a lot and now they've given 347 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 1: him another one that's like a trillion dollars of extra 348 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: equity if he goes to eight point five trillion. And 349 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 1: other people were like, oh, Elon must did it, it must 350 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 1: be cool. And so a lot of companies have done 351 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: these packages and what the eqular that he found is 352 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 1: that most of them, most of those companies have underperformed 353 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: at the SNP. Yeah, which, as I wrote, makes total 354 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 1: sense because these are supposed to be like a moonshots, 355 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 1: right and like most of the time they shouldn't work out, 356 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 1: and they're getting no reward for matching the S and 357 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: P performance, right, Like that's not what they're there for. 358 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: They're there to like ten X to the company, and 359 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:19,920 Speaker 1: if they can't do that, then like they'll fall short 360 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 1: and there'll be a bad payoff, right, And the idea 361 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: of these moonshots is like most of them won't work out, 362 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: and some of them will work out enormously well, and 363 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 1: so if you're a diversified shareholder, you'll get, you know, 364 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: the benefit of a few companies. 365 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,120 Speaker 2: I think the companies went into it with that attitude though, 366 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 2: like this probably won't work out. 367 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 1: No, but that's fine. Everyone thinks they're going to be 368 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:43,440 Speaker 1: the successful moonshot, right, Like, but if you're a shareholder, 369 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: if you're a diversefied chaholder, like, that's fine. You have 370 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 1: like ten CEOs who think they're going to get to 371 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:50,880 Speaker 1: the moon, and eight of them are diluted and two 372 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 1: of them are right, and you don't know which is which, 373 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: but they let them all try. You know, the CEO 374 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:57,640 Speaker 1: is all thinking, oh, of course I'll do this right 375 00:17:57,800 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 1: if some of them are wrong, like, that's good for 376 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 1: shaholders as long as some of them are right. 377 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 2: I really liked that framing thinking about it through the 378 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 2: perspective of a shareholder, and obviously my brain went to 379 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:10,400 Speaker 2: you could construct a moonshot portfolio of these twenty one 380 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:14,159 Speaker 2: companies or something that Equilar found did this and a. 381 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:17,400 Speaker 1: Lot of them have under and people Tesla, Yeah. 382 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 2: That's true. It seems like KKR this is working out 383 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 2: for them? Who else is it working out for Airbnb also, 384 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 2: which is interesting, it's specifically not working out for a 385 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 2: lot of people, including trade desk. But it was interesting 386 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 2: to see that Equilar was specifically looking at twenty twenty 387 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 2: and twenty twenty one packages. 388 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, so excluding Tesla. 389 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 2: Excluding Tesla, But it does feel like a moment in time. 390 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 2: I mean, maybe there have been more in the year since, 391 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 2: but it feels like twenty twenty, twenty twenty one you 392 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 2: did see. 393 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: A lot of these that was apparently there were more 394 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,200 Speaker 1: than than before or since. I think some of it 395 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:54,119 Speaker 1: was the Tesla package was in twenty eighteen, but I 396 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: think you hit the targets in like twenty twenty one, yeah, 397 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 1: or twenty and so there was a lot of like, 398 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 1: oh wow, it works. From the perspective of a CEO, 399 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: it's like, oh wow, I could make sixty billion dollars. 400 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 1: And from the perspective of a board, it's like, oh, 401 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 1: this incentivization works and gets CEOs to transform companies. Yeah, 402 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,120 Speaker 1: it's a little weird to be a board and be like, well, 403 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 1: our guy could be Elon Musk too, but it's you know, 404 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 1: someone's got to be Yeah, Elon Musk two point zero. 405 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:21,160 Speaker 2: Well, it'll be interesting to see, like what the lag 406 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:24,400 Speaker 2: effect of his most recent pay package is, like whether 407 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:25,199 Speaker 2: in I. 408 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 1: Don't think anyone else is going to get a jillion 409 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 1: dollar pay package. 410 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 2: For a while. No, you don't think so, who knows? 411 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:31,880 Speaker 1: Man? And the other thing I'd say is, like I've 412 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:34,199 Speaker 1: written this about, you know, his earlier pay package, and 413 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:37,880 Speaker 1: his trillion dollar pay package is like the classic Moonshot 414 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: pay package is you're an early stage startup founder, right, 415 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 1: and your pay is like Ramen and thirty percent of 416 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,479 Speaker 1: the equity of a company that is now worth you know, 417 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 1: nothing ish and it could be worth a trillion dollars, right, 418 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 1: Like that's the Moonshot pay package. That's the package where 419 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 1: in theory, you know, every startup CEO is is trying 420 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,120 Speaker 1: to create something out of nothing and if they fail, 421 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: they get roughly nothing, and if they succeed, they get 422 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg level wealth. And that's like a normal pay package. 423 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:12,719 Speaker 1: And what this is doing is translating that to giant 424 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 1: public companies. And it shouldn't work that well, right, Tesla's 425 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 1: a car company and it makes me correctly and it 426 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,239 Speaker 1: can sell cars, and like now Elin must incentives are 427 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 1: to transform it utterly to making an eight point five 428 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:27,239 Speaker 1: trillion dollar company. The theory there has to be like, 429 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 1: either he will succeed and it will we'll have a 430 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 1: human odor robot in every home and it will be 431 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 1: worth eight point five trillion dollars and he'll get paid, 432 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:35,159 Speaker 1: or he'll fail and he won't get paid and it 433 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,120 Speaker 1: won't like sell cars anymore. I don't know, like you're 434 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 1: sort of making these like very bold bets, and that 435 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,160 Speaker 1: makes sense when you're a startup, and maybe makes less 436 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:45,680 Speaker 1: sense for a large public company, but maybe it makes 437 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 1: more sense. On don't know, Maybe it's what the shralders want. 438 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 2: Can you walk me through the psychology of the CEOs 439 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 2: who canceled their Moonshot? Oh? Like the psychology you're just like, 440 00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 2: I'm not going to do this. 441 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 1: This is all stock options, right. It works is like 442 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 1: you're optimistic. The board is like, we're gonna pay you 443 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 1: a lot of stock options that will be worth a 444 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: lot of the thought goes up and be worth nothing 445 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 1: if the stock goes down, and you're like, great, the 446 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: stock will go up. And then the stock goes down 447 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,159 Speaker 1: and you're like, well, but I'm a nice guy. Like 448 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:15,120 Speaker 1: I come in every day, I work hard, Like why 449 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 1: am I not getting paid? And the board is like, 450 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: you're right, and they cancel your stock options and give 451 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: you a new stock options so you still get paid. 452 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:22,640 Speaker 1: And like the Moonshot stuff is like that too, right. 453 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: It's like at the beginning of the Moonshot package, it's 454 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 1: like you'll get nothing unless you're ten x the company, 455 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: which case we get a bajillion dollars, right, and then 456 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:30,439 Speaker 1: after two years you're like, well, I'm not gonna ten 457 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 1: next to the company, but like, ye, I'm working hard 458 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 1: and then I get fine, take some money. That's the psychology. 459 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: It's pretty reasonable. Yeah, it's on the theoretical level, like 460 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:41,919 Speaker 1: this sort of like all or nothing that creates the 461 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: right incentives to like, you know, they're working hard. 462 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 3: They're fine. 463 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:04,199 Speaker 2: What an interesting article that landed on Monday, so I 464 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 2: didn't fully appreciate it until Tuesday because Monday was a holiday. 465 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 1: The new or Executy Change and or related entities are 466 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 1: building a twenty four ish hour, seven ish day trading 467 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:17,359 Speaker 1: idea based on blockchain. 468 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, tokenized stocks and ETFs, and you can train them 469 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 2: walk out, you can train them around the clock. ETFs 470 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 2: they're building it, that is. 471 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,119 Speaker 1: They're thinking about it. It's in the works. 472 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. I feel like we've been talking about the concept 473 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 2: of twenty four to seven trading for a while. 474 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:38,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, and has the usual problems lighter liquidity if you 475 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 1: are market makers at two am. What I was interesting 476 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 1: about this story was that it's and I'd never really 477 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 1: like closely thought about this, but it's combined with blockchain. 478 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,919 Speaker 1: Blockchain blockchain tokenizing stocks. And there is kind of a 479 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 1: reason for that, which is that traditionally trade and settlement 480 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: are separated in a world of business hours and sort 481 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,399 Speaker 1: of serious institutional trader, like you do a trade between 482 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: nine thirty and four on a Monday, and then you know, 483 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: you get the cash and you deliver the shares sometime 484 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:08,679 Speaker 1: on Tuesday, and like it's all sort of like civilized, 485 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 1: but in a world of like catering to retail traders 486 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 1: who want to trade twenty four seven, like settlement is 487 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 1: an obstacle there, Like it would be weird to do 488 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,399 Speaker 1: a trade at midnight on Friday and then I have 489 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:25,919 Speaker 1: three days of like the money hasn't landed in your 490 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 1: account yet. It's not like the experience that you're expecting 491 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: when you're trading twenty four to seven, right, and so 492 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 1: the bloom work. Sorry, right, Catherine already quotes Michael Blackground 493 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 1: at and I say saying, we think it aligns with 494 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,120 Speaker 1: the retail investors emerging desire to be able to trade 495 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:42,399 Speaker 1: something at five oh four pm on a Saturday and 496 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 1: then use that money to buy something else at five 497 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 1: oh five pm on a Saturday. 498 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 3: Right. 499 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:47,919 Speaker 1: You can't use the money if you just like do 500 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 1: a trade and then it doesn't settle. Right. You're combining 501 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 1: the twenty four seven trading with real time settlement, and 502 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:56,159 Speaker 1: the way to do that these days is by token 503 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: eyes and talking about the blockchain. It's not the only 504 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 1: way to do real time settlement, but that's the way 505 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 1: everyone talks about it now. 506 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, and also it's a language that I feel like 507 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,960 Speaker 2: the people who care about this know the idea. Yeah, 508 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:12,639 Speaker 2: blockchain tokenization. We actually spoke to Michael Blogrund on UTFIQ, 509 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 2: which is a television show in addition to being my 510 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:18,719 Speaker 2: newsletter I ever heard, and he was talking about like, 511 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,400 Speaker 2: you know, they're in conversations with a lot of crypto 512 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 2: native firms who are really excited about this, but also 513 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 2: the largest some of the largest etf issuers out there, 514 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,400 Speaker 2: and it's all about like getting their products in the 515 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:34,439 Speaker 2: digital wallets of the next generation investors. So that's who 516 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 2: they're going after, and that's a language that they know 517 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 2: it all. 518 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, language I don't know, as we've already established. 519 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 2: So we'll see. I mean they're in talks with the SEC. 520 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:46,400 Speaker 2: It's not a Johne deal. 521 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 1: It's a pretty good time to be in. Talked about 522 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: blockchaining and tokenized something something. 523 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, So were you saying that you don't think like 524 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 2: tokenization is inevitable or twenty four to seven trading. 525 00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: Oh, I don't think the tokenization is an absolute requirement 526 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: for real time settlement, but it's how it's going to happen, right, Yeah, 527 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:03,679 Speaker 1: it's gonna happen. 528 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 2: Because I was going to say, like twenty four to 529 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 2: seven trading feels inevitable. Yes, it's coming. 530 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, although it's always like twenty three and a half, 531 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, you need like time to reset the 532 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 1: computers up. 533 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 2: I did like how you framed in your column that 534 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,359 Speaker 2: I'm trying to imagine another app, Like if I was 535 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:23,359 Speaker 2: like a huge fan of an app on my phone 536 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:25,439 Speaker 2: and then it stopped working at four pm on Friday, 537 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 2: and I couldn't use it all weekend. It would kind 538 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:29,880 Speaker 2: of be like what am I doing? 539 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 1: Like I come from a world where like, yes, like 540 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: you go home at four o'clock on Friday, you don't 541 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 1: trade stocks for a while. But like that's not like 542 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,119 Speaker 1: an app native living on your phone. 543 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, you grew up on the internet and with these apps. 544 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 2: Then that doesn't really make sense. 545 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:45,160 Speaker 1: Trade sucks all. 546 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 2: The time it's happening. 547 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,399 Speaker 1: Like one possibility is you'll have very limited liquidity and 548 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,400 Speaker 1: lots of craziness overnight. But another possibility is like, eh, 549 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: like everyone just put their traders on two shifts and 550 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 1: you know, like it's mostly computers. Anyways, you need someone 551 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 1: on the night shift super rise the computer and like 552 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:02,359 Speaker 1: maybe it's all fun, Maybe it's fine. 553 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:03,919 Speaker 2: I think it would be really fun to be on 554 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:05,120 Speaker 2: the night shift, just. 555 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 1: Like the one person with a bank of computers that 556 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 1: are like trading against retail dj ns all night long. 557 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 2: I picture a cozy dark room, the warm glow of 558 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:18,159 Speaker 2: your computer screen, right, siff in your tea, got. 559 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: Myls aren't going down too much? 560 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:23,120 Speaker 2: My flannel pajama bottoms on. Yeah that sounds good. 561 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 1: I don't think you know, I think that job will 562 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: be like you're wearing a suit and you're in Tokyo. 563 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 1: But it's possible. 564 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's not very romantic. Yeah, all right. I 565 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 2: feel like we covered a lot of grounds, a lot 566 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 2: of good good luck, good luck in the snow. 567 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 1: Every book at the pub. 568 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:43,239 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, thank you. 569 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:51,200 Speaker 1: And that was the Money Stuff Podcast. 570 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 2: I'm Matt Levine and I'm Katie Greifeld. 571 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 1: You can find my work by subscribing to the Money 572 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 1: Stuff newsletter on Bloomberg. 573 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 2: Dot com, and you can find me on Bloomberg every 574 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 2: day on the close between three and five pm Eastern. 575 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you. You can send an 576 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,879 Speaker 1: email to Moneypod at Bloomberg dot net, ask us a 577 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: question and we might answer it on the air. 578 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 2: You can also subscribe to our show wherever you're listening 579 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 2: right now and leave us a review. It helps more 580 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 2: people find the show. 581 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 1: The Money Stuff Podcast is produced by Anam Aserakis, Moses 582 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 1: Onam and Alexis HoTT Our. 583 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:26,440 Speaker 2: Theme music was composed by Blake Maples. 584 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 1: Amy Keen is our executive producer. Thanks for listening to 585 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 1: The Money Stuff Podcast. We'll be back next week with 586 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 1: more stuff.