1
00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:06,360
Speaker 1: On July fifteenth, nineteen forty nine, Norma and Willie Paget

2
00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:09,240
Speaker 1: went out for a night on the town. According to

3
00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:12,239
Speaker 1: the couple, during their ride home, car trouble forced them

4
00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:15,560
Speaker 1: to stop on the side of the road. The following morning,

5
00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:20,639
Speaker 1: Norma Paget turned up in a nearby town alone. Once

6
00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:23,480
Speaker 1: Willie was located, the couple told the local sheriff that

7
00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:26,840
Speaker 1: while they were stranded, four black men had overpowered Willy

8
00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:31,040
Speaker 1: and raped Norma, although a physician's findings as well as

9
00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:34,480
Speaker 1: a witness account did not support this narrative. Three local

10
00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:39,239
Speaker 1: young men were apprehended, Walter Irvin, Sam Shepherd, and Charles Greenley.

11
00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:43,360
Speaker 1: An associate of Greenley's named Ernest Thomas was killed while

12
00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:46,560
Speaker 1: being pursued through a swamp by police and an angry mob.

13
00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,040
Speaker 1: When Sam Shepherd and Charles Greenley both gave confessions, the

14
00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:53,520
Speaker 1: growing mob called for the sheriff to produce the three

15
00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,200
Speaker 1: young men to be lynched, but the sheriff quelled the

16
00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:59,280
Speaker 1: crowd with a promise that a jury trial would send

17
00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:15,520
Speaker 1: them to their death. But this is wrongful conviction. Welcome

18
00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:18,560
Speaker 1: back to Wrongful Conviction, where we're covering the case of

19
00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:24,119
Speaker 1: the Groveland four Ernest Thomas, Charles Greenlee, Samuel Shepherd, and

20
00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,440
Speaker 1: Walter Irvin, a Politzer Prise winning book Devil in the

21
00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:31,520
Speaker 1: Grove help secure their posthumous exaggeration. So we've asked, and

22
00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:34,000
Speaker 1: we're really privileged to have the author of that book

23
00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:37,440
Speaker 1: to join us in their stead. Our audience will recognize

24
00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:39,800
Speaker 1: him as the host of Bone Valley, the podcast series

25
00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:43,039
Speaker 1: about another wrongful conviction out of Lake County, Florida. So

26
00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:46,960
Speaker 1: it's my honor to welcome my great friend and colleague,

27
00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:47,920
Speaker 1: Gilbert King.

28
00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:50,560
Speaker 2: Thanks, Jason, I'm really looking forward to this. Thanks for

29
00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:51,080
Speaker 2: having me on.

30
00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,800
Speaker 1: We're really happy to have you now, Gilbert. This case

31
00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:58,360
Speaker 1: took place in Groveland, Florida, and it's an agricultural town

32
00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,040
Speaker 1: relying mainly on Orange grove, and there was a pretty

33
00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:04,120
Speaker 1: clear racial divide between the white orange grove owners and

34
00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:08,560
Speaker 1: the mostly black farmhands. The local sheriff, Willis McCall was

35
00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:12,240
Speaker 1: took it upon himself and was really tasked with keeping

36
00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:16,000
Speaker 1: those black farmhands keeping their labor as cheap as possible.

37
00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:17,840
Speaker 1: And one of the ways he was doing this was

38
00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:20,959
Speaker 1: by running union organizers out of town. And don't forget

39
00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:23,440
Speaker 1: this was clan country during the late stages of Jim

40
00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:25,920
Speaker 1: Crow the years following World War Two.

41
00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:28,560
Speaker 2: You know, something really interesting is happening in the country

42
00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:30,680
Speaker 2: at this time. You have more than a million black

43
00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:33,720
Speaker 2: servicemen who are coming back from overseas having fought in

44
00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,840
Speaker 2: World War Two, and many of them have experienced greater

45
00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:40,560
Speaker 2: freedoms and respect abroad in places like Germany, France, and England.

46
00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:42,560
Speaker 2: And now they come back to the Jim Crow South

47
00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:46,120
Speaker 2: and they're sort of expected to slip quietly back into that,

48
00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:49,800
Speaker 2: you know, second class citizenship. And two of the men

49
00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,360
Speaker 2: who had later become known as Groveland Four, served the military.

50
00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,360
Speaker 2: Then they came back to Groveland, and they continued to

51
00:02:56,360 --> 00:03:00,240
Speaker 2: wear their military uniforms, which was very common thing, a

52
00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:02,320
Speaker 2: reminder to the people in the South that you know,

53
00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:04,440
Speaker 2: I was willing to fight and die for this country,

54
00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:06,800
Speaker 2: put my life on the line. I deserve a little

55
00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:09,480
Speaker 2: more respect as an American citizen. But that was not

56
00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:11,359
Speaker 2: what was waiting for them when they returned to the

57
00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:12,240
Speaker 2: Jim Crow South.

58
00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,040
Speaker 1: No, and these two young men you mentioned were twenty

59
00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:17,760
Speaker 1: two year olds Samuel Shepherd and Walter Irvin who grew

60
00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:21,079
Speaker 1: up in Groveland, and sam Shepherd's father, Henry Shepherd was

61
00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:22,520
Speaker 1: a bit of a thorn in the side of your

62
00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:26,040
Speaker 1: average white supremacist because he's really kind of stuck out

63
00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:30,280
Speaker 1: as a very successful farmer in what was once the

64
00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:31,600
Speaker 1: black part of the county.

65
00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:33,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's absolutely right, you know. And one of the

66
00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:35,680
Speaker 2: things that you know, Henry Shepherd did when he first

67
00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,480
Speaker 2: came to this land, it was swampland, so he drained

68
00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:41,520
Speaker 2: it personally himself, and he took the best land. But

69
00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:44,720
Speaker 2: by draining the land, it became a desirable part of

70
00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:47,560
Speaker 2: land in South Lake County. So now you had sort

71
00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:50,560
Speaker 2: of this forced desegregation where white people were starting to

72
00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:53,320
Speaker 2: move into this land and they resented the fact that

73
00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:55,880
Speaker 2: the black man had the best land in the area.

74
00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:58,640
Speaker 2: And so you started to see like them letting their

75
00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:01,920
Speaker 2: cows and their cattle go and Gray's on Henry Shepherd's land.

76
00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:05,200
Speaker 2: Henry tried to complain, and Sheriff Willis McCall told him,

77
00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,000
Speaker 2: no black man has a right to file a complaint

78
00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:10,000
Speaker 2: against a white resident of Lake County.

79
00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:12,520
Speaker 1: And that wasn't the only racist law that the sheriff

80
00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:16,640
Speaker 1: made up. He specifically forbade black servicemen from doing what

81
00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:20,480
Speaker 1: Sam and Walter had been doing. Donning their uniforms and

82
00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:24,200
Speaker 1: demanding their well earned and well deserved respect. So Sam

83
00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:26,640
Speaker 1: and Walt were really already in the crosshairs of the

84
00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:29,200
Speaker 1: clan here. But what about these other two men of

85
00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:31,400
Speaker 1: the Groveland four? And I said, men, but one of them,

86
00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:34,839
Speaker 1: let's face, it was just a kid from Tennessee, right.

87
00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,719
Speaker 2: Right, Charles Greenley and Ernest Thomas. Charles Greenley was a

88
00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,320
Speaker 2: sixteen year old kid who met Ernest Thomas in Gainesville.

89
00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,159
Speaker 2: They were working at a fast food place together, and

90
00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:47,400
Speaker 2: Ernest said, come back to Lake County. You can work

91
00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:49,560
Speaker 2: in the Orange Groves. You can make some money. They

92
00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:52,359
Speaker 2: didn't even know Walter Irvin and Sam Shepard. It just

93
00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,279
Speaker 2: all got caught up in the middle of July of

94
00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:56,760
Speaker 2: nineteen forty nine.

95
00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:59,839
Speaker 1: Yes, July fifteenth, to be exact, when sixteen year old

96
00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,640
Speaker 1: Rarles Greenley had been arrested for sleeping at a train station.

97
00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:05,520
Speaker 1: Earlier on in the evening, twenty six year old Ernest

98
00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:07,440
Speaker 1: Thomas was at home with his family in a black

99
00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:10,880
Speaker 1: part of town Stucky Still, and then Sam and Walter

100
00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:15,000
Speaker 1: had gone out drinking in nearby Orlando before returning to Groveland. Now,

101
00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:17,320
Speaker 1: what's the real story with the alleged victims.

102
00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,200
Speaker 2: What had happened was a young couple by the name

103
00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,080
Speaker 2: of Norma Paget and her husband, Willie, had only been

104
00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:26,320
Speaker 2: married for about six months, and there was rumors going

105
00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:30,359
Speaker 2: around town that Willy was an abusive husband to Norma,

106
00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,080
Speaker 2: and the families kind of wanted them to separate, didn't

107
00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:35,440
Speaker 2: think they were a mature, good couple to be together,

108
00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:38,200
Speaker 2: and so they separated for a few months just into

109
00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:42,480
Speaker 2: their marriage, and on July fifteenth, nineteen forty nine, they

110
00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,760
Speaker 2: decided to sort of give it another chance and go

111
00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:49,400
Speaker 2: out dancing, and so Willy picks up a bottle of whiskey.

112
00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:52,480
Speaker 2: They go out to an American Legion hall in Lake County, Florida,

113
00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:56,839
Speaker 2: start dancing, and shortly after midnight, Willy and Norma take

114
00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:58,800
Speaker 2: off in Willy's car and they're going to go out

115
00:05:58,800 --> 00:05:59,440
Speaker 2: for a snack.

116
00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,160
Speaker 1: Now we're not exactly sure what happened next, but they

117
00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:06,919
Speaker 1: allegedly had some car trouble pulled over, and what we

118
00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:09,640
Speaker 1: do know for sure is that Norma was spotted the

119
00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:12,840
Speaker 1: following morning alone in front of a cafe. Now, it's

120
00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,760
Speaker 1: believed that Willie had gotten aggressive with Norma at some

121
00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:18,640
Speaker 1: point and violent and that they needed to make up

122
00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,880
Speaker 1: a story to cover for that fact. However, for now,

123
00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,080
Speaker 1: let's stick with what is known. Starting with Norma.

124
00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:28,359
Speaker 2: At about six in the morning, she's seen in a

125
00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:31,760
Speaker 2: little town called Oka Humpka standing outside this cafe called

126
00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:35,640
Speaker 2: Bertov's Cafe. And so Lawrence Bertoff is like, this eighteen

127
00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:38,520
Speaker 2: year old kid works for his father's cafe. He looks

128
00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:40,560
Speaker 2: out the window and he sees this woman on the

129
00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,840
Speaker 2: side of the road, opens up the cafe, pours some coffee.

130
00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:46,560
Speaker 2: They talked for like fifteen minutes. He says, you know,

131
00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:48,760
Speaker 2: she doesn't seem very upset. She just says, I'm looking

132
00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:52,080
Speaker 2: for my husband. We got separated the night before. She

133
00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:55,640
Speaker 2: doesn't say anything about being sexually assaulted or anything like that.

134
00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:57,800
Speaker 2: She basically just says, I need a ride to go

135
00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:00,560
Speaker 2: back and look for my husband. Lawrence put Norma in

136
00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:03,839
Speaker 2: the car and they start driving down the road where

137
00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:07,120
Speaker 2: the car broke down, and that's where they see Willie

138
00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:10,560
Speaker 2: Paget coming the other way in a car with a deputy.

139
00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:13,760
Speaker 2: Lawrence Bertoff sees Norma get out. She goes over to

140
00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,920
Speaker 2: her husband and that's it, and they drive off, and

141
00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:19,720
Speaker 2: the next thing we know Norma Paget has made the

142
00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:23,360
Speaker 2: accusations that four black men beat up her husband, took

143
00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,000
Speaker 2: her off, raped her, and then dropped her off on

144
00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:29,239
Speaker 2: the side of the road. So when she made those accusations,

145
00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:33,280
Speaker 2: Sheriff Willis McCall basically claimed the story from Norma because

146
00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:35,880
Speaker 2: she said, initially I couldn't identify them, it was too dark.

147
00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,320
Speaker 2: Willis McCall said, well, I know exactly who they are,

148
00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:40,640
Speaker 2: and he just rounded up people that he believed were

149
00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,560
Speaker 2: troublemakers in town. The first two he picked up were

150
00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,120
Speaker 2: Walter Irvin and Sam Shepard, are the ones that wore

151
00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:49,880
Speaker 2: their military uniforms after their service. But you know, because

152
00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,360
Speaker 2: Norma Paget said that it was four men, they had

153
00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:55,680
Speaker 2: to find two others, so Sheriff Willis McCall was kind

154
00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:58,760
Speaker 2: of scrambling. At that point. He finds Charles Greenley, who

155
00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,880
Speaker 2: just got into town sleeping at a train station twenty

156
00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:05,160
Speaker 2: something miles away. He got arrested for vagrancy, so they

157
00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:07,160
Speaker 2: arrest him and say he was part of it. And

158
00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,040
Speaker 2: then they find this other guy, Ernest Thomas, who was

159
00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:12,080
Speaker 2: supposedly with Charles Greenley that night.

160
00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,200
Speaker 1: And this is nineteen forty nine, five years before the

161
00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:17,760
Speaker 1: lynching of m at Till when any kind of alleged

162
00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,240
Speaker 1: impropriety for a black man or men toward a white

163
00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:24,280
Speaker 1: woman was met with extreme violence. Enormous Father coy Tyson

164
00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:26,840
Speaker 1: was a clan member. At this point, clan in the

165
00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:29,920
Speaker 1: region began to mobilize and descend upon Grovelin. While the

166
00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,760
Speaker 1: local clan had marched down to the Shepherd family's farm

167
00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:36,079
Speaker 1: and burned it to the ground. Sam Shepherd was already

168
00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,200
Speaker 1: in custody along with Walter Irvin and Charles Greenley, but

169
00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:41,199
Speaker 1: Ernest Thomas had not been rounded up yet.

170
00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:44,280
Speaker 2: Ernest Thomas he sees what's happening with all the clan

171
00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,440
Speaker 2: coming into town, and he flees up north to a swamp.

172
00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:51,480
Speaker 2: Sheriff Willis McCall puts together a posse of more than

173
00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,600
Speaker 2: one thousand men, and they go up to North Florida

174
00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:57,679
Speaker 2: and just hunt him down like a dog. Ernest Thomas

175
00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,320
Speaker 2: was executed in the swamps up there. One of the

176
00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,400
Speaker 2: corners reports said that his body was riddled with something

177
00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:06,480
Speaker 2: like four hundred slugs, and so that's pretty much how

178
00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,520
Speaker 2: the Groveland Four became the Groveland Three.

179
00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:12,480
Speaker 1: Then McCall and his deputies went back to the courthouse

180
00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:15,280
Speaker 1: where Sam, Walter and Charles were in custody. While a

181
00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:19,360
Speaker 1: bloodthirsty mob slowly began to amass on the courthouse steps.

182
00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:23,240
Speaker 2: The deputies take the three young men down to the

183
00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:26,679
Speaker 2: basement of the Lake County Courthouse. It's a basement that

184
00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:29,640
Speaker 2: has a dirt floor with pipes hanging above. And so

185
00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:33,160
Speaker 2: what they do is they handcuff the defendants to the

186
00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:35,400
Speaker 2: pipe so that their hands are over their heads, and

187
00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:38,360
Speaker 2: they break these coke bottles on the ground and sprinkle

188
00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,080
Speaker 2: it below their feet, and they pull down their pants

189
00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:44,319
Speaker 2: and just start beating them with like rubber hoses and

190
00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:47,520
Speaker 2: god knows what else, punching them. So as they're beating

191
00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:49,439
Speaker 2: each man, they're having to move their feet around and

192
00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:52,280
Speaker 2: they're stepping on this broken glass. They beat these guys

193
00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:56,400
Speaker 2: so bad that Charles Greenley and Sam Shepard confess just

194
00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:00,080
Speaker 2: to stop the beating. Walter Irvin just passes out on

195
00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:03,440
Speaker 2: but he never confesses, he says. And then the sheriff

196
00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:05,800
Speaker 2: goes out on the courthouse steps and basically holds up

197
00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:08,960
Speaker 2: these white pieces of paper that are blank and says, yeah,

198
00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:11,400
Speaker 2: all three of them confessed. We got the guys. We're

199
00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:13,600
Speaker 2: going to be bringing them to trial. And you know,

200
00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:16,679
Speaker 2: within days of this, the Orlando Sentinel is putting out

201
00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:20,920
Speaker 2: these editorial cartoons with electric chairs calling for the death.

202
00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:24,280
Speaker 1: And the gathering racist mob definitely wanted death, I mean

203
00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,600
Speaker 1: to be sure, but not by electric share. That didn't

204
00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:28,920
Speaker 1: seem to be good enough for them.

205
00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:31,920
Speaker 2: They wanted vengeance. This was going to be a lynching.

206
00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:36,880
Speaker 2: And McCall recognized that he snuck the Groveland boys out

207
00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:38,520
Speaker 2: of the jail because he knew there was going to

208
00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:41,280
Speaker 2: be trouble, and he moved him up to Rayford State Prison.

209
00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:44,080
Speaker 2: So when the klan shows up outside the courthouse, he

210
00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:47,400
Speaker 2: eventually strikes a deal and he says, okay, normous, Father

211
00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,720
Speaker 2: Coy and Willie Pageck can go up into the jail

212
00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:53,439
Speaker 2: and look around and see if they see the defendants.

213
00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:56,480
Speaker 2: And obviously these guys weren't there at this point, and

214
00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:58,640
Speaker 2: so that's how he was able to sort of tamp

215
00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,560
Speaker 2: down the mob. New York Times wrote a big story

216
00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:03,360
Speaker 2: about him the next day. It said, you know, fast

217
00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:05,920
Speaker 2: talking shriff prevents a lynching in Lake County.

218
00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, he prevented a lynching, maybe, but the misdirected violence

219
00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,440
Speaker 1: that followed is reminiscent of the Tulsa race massacre of

220
00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,560
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty one, and when an angry white mob, spurred

221
00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:19,120
Speaker 1: on by a false allegation of sexual impropriety by a

222
00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:22,840
Speaker 1: black man against a white woman, burned down a thriving Tulsa,

223
00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:26,400
Speaker 1: Oklahoma community known as Black Wall Street and killed anyone

224
00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:29,679
Speaker 1: in everyone they could find. And this Groveland mob was

225
00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:31,320
Speaker 1: not all that different.

226
00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:33,559
Speaker 2: Right, And that's just a very common thing in the

227
00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:36,800
Speaker 2: Jim Crow South. It happened in Florida with Rosewood, It's

228
00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:39,800
Speaker 2: happened in a Koe, where these accusations just spark this

229
00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:44,079
Speaker 2: white violence, sometimes driving every black person out of these towns.

230
00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:47,959
Speaker 2: In this particular case, the Ku Klux Klan started burning

231
00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:51,760
Speaker 2: down the homes in the black part of town called Stucky. Still,

232
00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:54,440
Speaker 2: what's really interesting is you have all these really wealthy

233
00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:58,080
Speaker 2: white citrus barons basically, and they don't want to see

234
00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:01,080
Speaker 2: a mass exodus of labor, so they're actually sending their

235
00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:03,760
Speaker 2: trucks in there and trying to move blacks in Lake

236
00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:06,080
Speaker 2: County to safety because they don't want what's happened in

237
00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:08,760
Speaker 2: other places like the Koe and Rosewood, where all of

238
00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,520
Speaker 2: a sudden you lose the black labor force that hits

239
00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:16,320
Speaker 2: them economically, so they're actually protecting them. And National Guard

240
00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:19,000
Speaker 2: had to come into Lake County to sort of stop

241
00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:22,479
Speaker 2: the violence. Is to stop the destruction of the black community.

242
00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:25,040
Speaker 2: You know. It's then the clan starts turning on the

243
00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:27,400
Speaker 2: wealthy people, saying, if you talk to the FBI about this,

244
00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:29,520
Speaker 2: we're gonna burn down every building your own. You're not

245
00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:32,679
Speaker 2: safe either. And there's a very famous photograph of Sheriff

246
00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:36,120
Speaker 2: Willis McCall where he's out surveying the ruins, the ashy

247
00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:40,000
Speaker 2: ruins of these houses that were burned down the following night. On.

248
00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:43,560
Speaker 2: What you later learned through FBI reports and informants was

249
00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:47,520
Speaker 2: that the sheriff himself, Willis McCall, was the one supervising

250
00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:50,480
Speaker 2: the clan about which houses to burn down. He was

251
00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:52,560
Speaker 2: on the scene the night before.

252
00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:53,800
Speaker 1: Was he a clan member.

253
00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:56,560
Speaker 2: He wasn't just a clan member. I mean informants in

254
00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,320
Speaker 2: the clan meetings would say Sheriff Willis McCall was the

255
00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:02,440
Speaker 2: one giving or giving him legal advice, telling him not

256
00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:05,680
Speaker 2: to talk to police. Sheriff Willis McCall was really trying

257
00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:07,000
Speaker 2: to have it both ways.

258
00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:09,680
Speaker 1: Right, So on a national stage, McCall appeared to be

259
00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:13,679
Speaker 1: a champion of even keeled justice, but locally he had

260
00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:17,160
Speaker 1: actually led the Klan in their bloodthirsty rampage through Stucky

261
00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:22,440
Speaker 1: Still and remember, this case and others like it represented

262
00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:27,360
Speaker 1: a slow shift away from lynching into a more sugar

263
00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:31,400
Speaker 1: coated form of white supremacy and white terrorism.

264
00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:35,600
Speaker 2: What's really remarkable about this case is the transition from

265
00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:39,920
Speaker 2: lynchings to the death penalty, the way the death penalty

266
00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,160
Speaker 2: was used, and back then there was a capital offense

267
00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:45,200
Speaker 2: to be charged with the rape of a white woman.

268
00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:47,120
Speaker 2: I think in the state of Virginia there were forty

269
00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:50,560
Speaker 2: nine cases where a man was executed for rape. All

270
00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:54,440
Speaker 2: forty nine of those men were black men accused of

271
00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:55,439
Speaker 2: raping a white woman.

272
00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:58,560
Speaker 1: And you can see throughout the history of the death

273
00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:02,160
Speaker 1: penalty in this country how on evenly it has been applied. Now,

274
00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,319
Speaker 1: if there's any silver lining to this story, it's that

275
00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:10,360
Speaker 1: the overwhelming destruction in Mayhem garnered the attention of the NAACP,

276
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:16,160
Speaker 1: who sent none other than NAACP attorney Franklin Williams and

277
00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,760
Speaker 1: future Supreme Court Justice Thurgod Marshall, and they were there

278
00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:21,800
Speaker 1: to represent the Gwoveland III.

279
00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:24,720
Speaker 2: Franklin Williams showed up at the jail to interview these

280
00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:27,280
Speaker 2: men and got their statements, and he said he was

281
00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:31,280
Speaker 2: absolutely disgusted by what he saw. Three weeks after these beatings,

282
00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:34,160
Speaker 2: these men were still wearing the same clothes. There was

283
00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:37,200
Speaker 2: blood all over the clothes, welts in their head, teeth

284
00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,240
Speaker 2: were knocked out, they were viciously beaten, and now they're

285
00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:41,680
Speaker 2: going on trial for their lives.

286
00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:45,680
Speaker 1: The prosecutor, Jesse Hunter and Sheriff McCall already had the

287
00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:49,400
Speaker 1: tortured confessions and norma paget ready to identify them in court.

288
00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,240
Speaker 1: In addition, they had tried to shore up any other

289
00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:56,800
Speaker 1: potential witnesses, starting with the kid from the cafe, Lawrence Bertov.

290
00:14:57,200 --> 00:14:59,160
Speaker 2: You know, he told the story that they were threatening to,

291
00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:02,200
Speaker 2: you know, destroy his father's cafe if he didn't go

292
00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:04,920
Speaker 2: along with this. And his mother said, Lawrence, just tell

293
00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,560
Speaker 2: the truth, don't lie, just tell the truth. We'll deal

294
00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:09,520
Speaker 2: with all that. And he tries to tell the story

295
00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:13,040
Speaker 2: of what he observed, but it doesn't fit the state's narrative.

296
00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:16,800
Speaker 2: So what does the state do? They hide Lawrence Bertoft

297
00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:20,120
Speaker 2: from the defense, basically get him to leave town. They

298
00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:23,000
Speaker 2: take all of the defendant's families and lock them up

299
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,000
Speaker 2: in jail so that they can't share stories and talk

300
00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:28,080
Speaker 2: about alibis. I mean, these are the kind of things

301
00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,480
Speaker 2: that law enforcement could get away with in the South.

302
00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,720
Speaker 2: We learned this because I filed a FOYA on this

303
00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:36,760
Speaker 2: case to get all the FBI records. And if you

304
00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:39,960
Speaker 2: look at the FBI interviews with Norma Paget, they do

305
00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:43,920
Speaker 2: not match the story Norma Paget was telling at trial.

306
00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:46,880
Speaker 2: But of course the defense didn't even have access to

307
00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:50,760
Speaker 2: these FBI interviews either, so they never knew the whole story.

308
00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:55,160
Speaker 1: And then there's the doctor, right, doctor Jeffrey Beinneveld's.

309
00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:59,560
Speaker 2: Absolutely hours after this alleged attack, he does the medical

310
00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,360
Speaker 2: exam of Norma Paget, and I got my hands on

311
00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,600
Speaker 2: his report. He concluded that there was no evidence of

312
00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,960
Speaker 2: any kind of sexual assault to the degree of which

313
00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:12,920
Speaker 2: Norma Paget reported. What does the state do? Basically they

314
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,560
Speaker 2: hide doctor Benevelt from the defense. Those are the kind

315
00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:18,640
Speaker 2: of things that Franklin Williams and Thurgood Marshall were contending with.

316
00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:21,360
Speaker 1: And this went to trial only about two months after

317
00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:24,960
Speaker 1: the alleged rape. In front of Judge Truman Fudge. Now

318
00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:27,600
Speaker 1: I'm going to take a wild guess and say that

319
00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:28,240
Speaker 1: this was an.

320
00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:29,720
Speaker 2: All white jury, all white men.

321
00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:33,360
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, And get this the prosecutor, Jesse Hunter. He

322
00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:38,000
Speaker 1: actually did not present Sam and Charles's tortured false confessions,

323
00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:40,960
Speaker 1: which don't have to be Colombo to figure out that

324
00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:43,600
Speaker 1: he knew they were false, and that he actually thought

325
00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:46,000
Speaker 1: that the torture had been so extreme that the jury

326
00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:48,920
Speaker 1: might see through them, even this all white, all male jury.

327
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:53,560
Speaker 1: But instead they produced some plaster casts of Walter Irvin

328
00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:58,880
Speaker 1: shoeprints allegedly from the scene, which screams malfeasance and it

329
00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,080
Speaker 1: reeks of junk science. They also presented a pair of

330
00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:05,199
Speaker 1: Walter's genes, pointing to a stain and alleging that it

331
00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:09,920
Speaker 1: was quote a human stain unquote who's human stain? Though

332
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,359
Speaker 1: what kind of fluid? They didn't even bother to say

333
00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:14,800
Speaker 1: that they probably didn't know. I think about the time

334
00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:17,360
Speaker 1: and place this was, but I understand that Groveland three

335
00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:19,760
Speaker 1: took the stand in their own defense right, starting with

336
00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:20,480
Speaker 1: Sam and Walter.

337
00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:24,440
Speaker 2: Sam Shepard and Walter Irvin completely denied it. Charles Greenley said, look,

338
00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:26,359
Speaker 2: I was on another side of town. I was locked

339
00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:29,000
Speaker 2: up in a jail for loitering. I don't know who

340
00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:31,160
Speaker 2: those Walter Irvin and Sam Shepard. I've never seen him

341
00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:32,040
Speaker 2: before in my life.

342
00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:35,560
Speaker 1: And with bertof hidden and any potential alibi witnesses locked

343
00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:37,920
Speaker 1: up and with no access to the FBI's interviews of

344
00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:41,159
Speaker 1: Norman Paget and barely two months to prepare in the

345
00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:43,520
Speaker 1: lead up to the trial, had the defense been able

346
00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:46,720
Speaker 1: to uncover anything meaningful or even helpful.

347
00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:49,359
Speaker 2: By this point, the defense sty had heard rumors that

348
00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:51,600
Speaker 2: this doctor had been out there and had done this exam,

349
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,080
Speaker 2: and they tried to get their hands on the doctor

350
00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:57,800
Speaker 2: or FBI cooperation, but they were told that this was

351
00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:00,560
Speaker 2: still an investigation in progress and that they didn't have

352
00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,040
Speaker 2: rights to the doctor, his testimony, or even his reports.

353
00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:07,640
Speaker 2: This is how it was stacked against the Groveland three.

354
00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:11,320
Speaker 1: And really, what did any of this matter? Considering Norma

355
00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:13,400
Speaker 1: Paget was going to take the stand.

356
00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:15,920
Speaker 2: Thurgood Marshall was told like the quickest way to send

357
00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:18,359
Speaker 2: your clients to the electric chair was if a black

358
00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:20,639
Speaker 2: man stood up in court and questioned the word of

359
00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,080
Speaker 2: a white woman. In fact, Thurgood Marshall had to hire

360
00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:25,679
Speaker 2: a white lawyer by the name of Alex Akerman to

361
00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:28,760
Speaker 2: come in. And so what they basically said is, we're

362
00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:31,080
Speaker 2: not saying that this didn't happen to you, miss Paget.

363
00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:34,479
Speaker 2: We're just saying that you've identified these suspects incorrectly. And

364
00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:36,360
Speaker 2: that was as far as they were willing to go.

365
00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:40,719
Speaker 2: And so when Norma Paget takes the stand, she points

366
00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:43,760
Speaker 2: out to the three black men sitting at the defense

367
00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:46,560
Speaker 2: table and refers to him as the n word for

368
00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:48,640
Speaker 2: each of them and basically says, those are the men

369
00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,560
Speaker 2: that rape me. By the time they came to the verdict,

370
00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:54,480
Speaker 2: Walter Irvin and Sam Shephard are sentenced to death by

371
00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:58,520
Speaker 2: electric chair. Charles Greenley, because of his age sixteen, was

372
00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:01,840
Speaker 2: given life on a chain game. Thurgod Marshall later said,

373
00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:04,159
Speaker 2: that's how you know the jury believed that your client

374
00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:07,360
Speaker 2: was innocent. In the South, they only get life in prison.

375
00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:23,280
Speaker 1: This episode is sponsored by marsh mc clennan, the world's

376
00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:26,800
Speaker 1: leading professional services firm in the areas of risk, strategy

377
00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,600
Speaker 1: and people. Its legal and compliance department provides pro bono

378
00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:34,440
Speaker 1: legal assistance and other support to underrepresentative communities and.

379
00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:43,680
Speaker 2: Individuals Thurgod Marshall and his lawyers at the NAACP. They

380
00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:47,160
Speaker 2: understood the appellate process. What they also know is that

381
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,440
Speaker 2: the State of Florida has committed some egregious violations of

382
00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:53,840
Speaker 2: the Constitution. The way Florida selected a grand jury. They

383
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:57,000
Speaker 2: were pointing out black people in the community, inviting them in,

384
00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:00,399
Speaker 2: and then using peremptory strikes to get them off the jury.

385
00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:02,840
Speaker 2: The Supreme Court had already ruled that this was an

386
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:06,480
Speaker 2: illegitimate way to select a jury. Marshall he also knew

387
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,560
Speaker 2: that there was so much pre trial publicity assuming that

388
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:12,520
Speaker 2: they were guilty and calling for executions, that there should

389
00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:14,800
Speaker 2: have been a change of venue. So that's what they

390
00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:18,760
Speaker 2: argued before the Supreme Court in nineteen fifty one.

391
00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:21,439
Speaker 1: This appeal was only for Sam and Walter, but not

392
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:23,800
Speaker 1: for sixteen year old Charles Greenley.

393
00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,600
Speaker 2: And Marshall explained to Greenley, like, look, we could get

394
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:28,680
Speaker 2: you in this appeal, and you could get a retrial,

395
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,280
Speaker 2: and you might get convicted and sentenced to death next time,

396
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:33,719
Speaker 2: because you're no longer a sixteen year old kid now

397
00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:36,720
Speaker 2: you're eighteen, and the jury might not have any sympathy

398
00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:40,360
Speaker 2: for you. So he persuades Greenley to not join the appeal.

399
00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:44,359
Speaker 1: So the Supreme Court recognized the constitutional violations and overturned

400
00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,040
Speaker 1: Sam and Walter's convictions and ordered them a new trial,

401
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:50,879
Speaker 1: which broke Sheriff Willis Paccall's promise of a legal lynching

402
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:51,880
Speaker 1: in the electric chair.

403
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,000
Speaker 2: So Sheriff Willis Beccall says, on the night of the retrial,

404
00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:58,560
Speaker 2: I'll drive up to Rayford State Prison myself, pick up

405
00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:01,960
Speaker 2: Sam Shepard and Walter Irvin and bring them back to

406
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,359
Speaker 2: the courthouse him and his deputy. While they're driving back

407
00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:09,240
Speaker 2: down McAll gets back into Lake County and then curiously

408
00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:13,680
Speaker 2: he turns off onto a dirt road and he starts

409
00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,760
Speaker 2: shaking the wheel of his car and says, boys, I

410
00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:20,560
Speaker 2: think I got a flat. He pulls over, orders Shepherd

411
00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,040
Speaker 2: and Irvin out of the car, opens the door and

412
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:27,600
Speaker 2: opens fire, shot Sam Shepherd three times, the third shot

413
00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:31,639
Speaker 2: straight between the eyes, killing him instantly. Walter Irvin is

414
00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:35,000
Speaker 2: handcuffed to Sam Shepherd. The Call drags them both out

415
00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:38,960
Speaker 2: of the car and shoots Walter Irvin twice, once in

416
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,000
Speaker 2: the chest and once in the side. The next thing

417
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,480
Speaker 2: we know, there's Sam Shepherd lying dead in a ditch,

418
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:48,600
Speaker 2: handcuffed to his best friend, Walter Irvin.

419
00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,600
Speaker 1: And the only reason we know any of this was

420
00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:53,360
Speaker 1: that Walter Irvin was still alive.

421
00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,040
Speaker 2: The only thing he could do because he was handcuffed

422
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,879
Speaker 2: was he pretended to be dead. And he said that.

423
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,439
Speaker 2: That's when he heard the sheriff get on his radio,

424
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,679
Speaker 2: call back to his deputy and say, Jimmy, Jimmy, I

425
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,040
Speaker 2: got him good, get back here. The deputy circles back

426
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,760
Speaker 2: in his car. Walter Irvin is still conscious and he

427
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,720
Speaker 2: hears the second police car coming and he hears these

428
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,720
Speaker 2: footsteps of James Yates and he's laying there trying not

429
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,920
Speaker 2: to breathe, and that's when he feels a flashlight shine

430
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:27,320
Speaker 2: over his face and he hears the deputy say this

431
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,439
Speaker 2: n ain't dead yet. And at that point, Irvin opens

432
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,240
Speaker 2: his eyes and he's staring down the barrel of a

433
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:38,200
Speaker 2: thirty eight caliber Smith and Wesson. The next thing he knows,

434
00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:42,200
Speaker 2: another shot is fired. It goes clean through his neck.

435
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:46,440
Speaker 1: So now McCallin, Yates radioed it in and their team

436
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,760
Speaker 1: shows up, including the prosecutor, Jesse Hunter, and a photographer.

437
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:54,480
Speaker 2: The photographer shows up, he says willis McCall is just pacing,

438
00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:57,399
Speaker 2: saying they tried to escape. I had no choice. They

439
00:22:57,480 --> 00:22:59,960
Speaker 2: came after me. I had to shoot him. I hate

440
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:02,200
Speaker 2: that this has happened, but you know, and he's got

441
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:06,200
Speaker 2: a little blood trickling down his face, his clothes are disheveled.

442
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:11,159
Speaker 2: Fifteen minutes later, an ambulance shows up takes Sheriff McCall

443
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:15,119
Speaker 2: to the hospital. Interestingly enough, there's a very famous photograph

444
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,439
Speaker 2: that was taken of the body of Sam Shepherd and

445
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:21,280
Speaker 2: also Walter Irvin. When that flash fired and that picture

446
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 2: was taken, Jesse Hunter said, one of those boys just moved,

447
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 2: and sure enough Walter Irvin was still alive, still breathing,

448
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 2: and so they bring Walter Irvin to the hospital as well.

449
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 1: When Walter finally regained consciousness, Thirdgood Marshall, a team of

450
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 1: FBI agents and a court stenographer were present to hear

451
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,679
Speaker 1: what had really happened. So pick back up with just

452
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:46,600
Speaker 1: after Walter was shot by Yates.

453
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,080
Speaker 2: That's when he hears the sheriff and the deputy say,

454
00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 2: we gotta make this look like an escape. Rip my

455
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:55,480
Speaker 2: clothes and they start fabricating evidence. They grab hair at

456
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:59,240
Speaker 2: of Sheriff McCall's head and place it in Sam Shepherd's hand,

457
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:01,920
Speaker 2: as if there was some kind of struggle. What's really

458
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 2: interesting at this point is the FBI. They've already taken

459
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:09,199
Speaker 2: a statement from Sheriff Willis McCall, who says that he

460
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 2: was being attacked and he emptied his revolver into them,

461
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:17,119
Speaker 2: shooting them six times. Well, the FBI is thinking to themselves, well,

462
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,119
Speaker 2: we've recovered five of those bullets. The six bullet that

463
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:25,119
Speaker 2: went clean through Walter Irvin's neck is never going to

464
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,160
Speaker 2: be recovered if the sheriff is telling the truth, because

465
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 2: he says that they were standing and approaching when the

466
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 2: last gunshot was fired. But if Walter Irvin is telling

467
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 2: the truth, we have an idea where that final six

468
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 2: bullet might be. And so they rush back to the

469
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,679
Speaker 2: crime scene from the night before, and they find it

470
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,480
Speaker 2: still cordoned off, and they find the blood stain where

471
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:51,160
Speaker 2: Walter Irvin was laying, and ten inches below the surface

472
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:55,200
Speaker 2: of that soil they find a thirty eight caliber slug.

473
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 1: So the FBI had irrefutable forensic evidence that Walter was

474
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 1: telling the truth and the sheriff was lying.

475
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,159
Speaker 2: At this point, you know, the FBI put together this

476
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 2: damning report with forensic evidence, proof of perjury, urging the

477
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 2: US attorney in Tampa to fully prosecute the sheriff and

478
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 2: the deputy for murder and attempted murder. And this US attorney,

479
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 2: who's a known segregationist appointed by Woodrow Wilson, quickly quashes

480
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 2: the investigation and it goes back to a local level.

481
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 1: Which meant going back in front of the trial judge

482
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 1: Truman Futch, who had impaneled what's known as a coroner's jury,

483
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 1: a body convened to assist a coroner in determining the

484
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 1: cause of death. But with what we've seen so far,

485
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,399
Speaker 1: we could pretty much predict how this is going to go.

486
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,919
Speaker 2: The coroner's jury was appointed by Sheriff Willis McCall. He

487
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 2: picked his own friends and business associates to judge whether

488
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,199
Speaker 2: he used reasonable force on Walter Irvan Sam Shepherd. The

489
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 2: judge Truman Futch says, well, you know, because the coroner's

490
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,640
Speaker 2: jury said that it was, you know, self defense, there's

491
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 2: no need to impanel a grand jury. One of the

492
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 2: FBI agents even wrote in a report, you know, he

493
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 2: was wondering why this was going nowhere, and he was

494
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 2: told that it was quashed for four words tranquility of

495
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 2: the South. In other words, if people really knew what

496
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,679
Speaker 2: had happened in this incident, they might riot in the

497
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 2: streets instead. Thurgod Marshall and his lawyers never knew about

498
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,199
Speaker 2: the reports, never knew what the FBI had really written

499
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,440
Speaker 2: in this case, and so that was hidden from them

500
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,399
Speaker 2: as well. And so sure enough they go right to

501
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:32,399
Speaker 2: a second trial.

502
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:36,160
Speaker 1: And even without the FBI's proof of Walter's version of events,

503
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 1: his story of survival cast enough doubt on Willis McCall.

504
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,639
Speaker 2: This has become embarrassing for the state of Florida, with

505
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,359
Speaker 2: this out of control sheriff and the governor at this

506
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,239
Speaker 2: point sort of wants this to go away, and so

507
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 2: they sent out an emissary to Thurgod Marshall and saying, look,

508
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 2: get Walter Irvin to plead guilty. We'll take the death

509
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 2: penalty off the table, and then we can come back

510
00:26:57,560 --> 00:26:59,640
Speaker 2: to this once it quiets down and try and get

511
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,199
Speaker 2: wa to Irvin out of prison. Irvin says, yeah, I

512
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 2: want to go to the electric chair. What do I

513
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 2: gotta do? And Marshall says, you got to stand up

514
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 2: in court and admit that you raped normal paget. He says,

515
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 2: I'm not telling a lie. I'm not gonna do that.

516
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,400
Speaker 2: I'm not admitting to something I didn't do. And Marshall's

517
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 2: like imploring him, like the State of Flower is going

518
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 2: to kill you. They are going to convict you again.

519
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 2: Trust me on this, and Irvin's like, Nope, I'm not lying.

520
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 2: I'm not going to do it. And so he goes

521
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:28,120
Speaker 2: forward with a second trial as Marshall predicted, He's convicted

522
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 2: and sentenced to death.

523
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 1: Governor Leroy Collins knew that this was unjust and in

524
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty five commuted Walter sends to life with the

525
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 1: possibility of parole.

526
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 2: Walter Irvin ends up serving twenty years before he's finally

527
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 2: paroled and released. Here's another part that's really disturbing Jason.

528
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 2: He receives news after his release that his uncle has

529
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 2: passed away in Lake County and he has to write

530
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 2: to the county for permission to come back to Lake

531
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 2: County because he's living down in Miami. He comes back

532
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 2: to Lake County to attend his uncle's funeral. He's found

533
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 2: dead in his car the same day he arrives back

534
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 2: in Lake County.

535
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 1: The official story was that he died of natural causes

536
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 1: on February sixteenth, nineteen sixty nine.

537
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:17,360
Speaker 2: People are absolutely convinced that Sheriff Willis McCall has finally

538
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:35,120
Speaker 2: gotten to him again. Charles Greenley, after ten years, he

539
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 2: was basically released. And so he went on and had

540
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 2: a very successful life, moved back to Tennessee, opened up

541
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 2: his own business, raised a family, and you know, never

542
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 2: talked about this with his cha. He was just found

543
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 2: it so shameful. He didn't want to poison his own

544
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 2: children with these kind of stories of racism, so he

545
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 2: kept them all to himself. He was the last of

546
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 2: the grove and four to die. He died in twenty twelve.

547
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 1: Well that's really just a short time. I mean, this

548
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 1: is not some ancient history, folks. And he died the

549
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 1: same year The Devil in the Grove was published. And

550
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 1: unfortunately Charles didn't live long enough to see that. Your

551
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 1: investigation for the book helped lead to all of their exonerations.

552
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 1: With the benefit of a barely more modern era, you

553
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 1: were able to see way more than what we shared

554
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 1: with the defense, which confirmed what Sam and Walt knew

555
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 1: all along.

556
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 2: At one point it was learned that Walter Irvin and

557
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 2: Sam Shepherd were driving home from a club in Orlando

558
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 2: and they came across Willy and Norma on the side

559
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 2: of the road and because of the broken down car,

560
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 2: Shepherd and Irvin stopped and they tried to help them

561
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 2: by pushing the car out and Norma, because they couldn't

562
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 2: get the car to work. Norma got out of the

563
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 2: car and handed Sam Shepherd some whiskey for trying to

564
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 2: help them get out, and Willy kind of flipped out

565
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 2: at that and said something like, I don't drink behind

566
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 2: no N word and got mad and they got into

567
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 2: a fight Sam Shepherd and Sam Shepherd seems to have

568
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 2: gotten the better of Willy Paget left him on the

569
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 2: side of the road. They take off in their car,

570
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 2: and that's when Willy said, oh, I got attacked by

571
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 2: four black men, and he tried to invent this story,

572
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 2: and they made it much worse by, you know, basically

573
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 2: normal Paget claiming that she'd also been raped when they

574
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 2: took away her from the scene. So these accusations are

575
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 2: obviously explosive. Willie Paget didn't want his pride her, so

576
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 2: he had to invent this story. We got to say

577
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 2: I was beat up by four black men, and I

578
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 2: think that's what the defense believed was the real story

579
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 2: that started all this.

580
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 1: And again, what a crazy, full circle thing. Here's these

581
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 1: guys doing a good deed, which they had to know.

582
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 1: There was some element of risk in that anyway, right,

583
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 1: you know, to be two black men stopping on the

584
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 1: side of the road with a white couple at nighttime

585
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 1: in the Deep South. But they did it anyway, right,

586
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 1: they did the right thing, and of course it backfires

587
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:57,959
Speaker 1: as badly as anything possibly could. So it's really extra

588
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 1: sickening because of that element to me, and I'm sure

589
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 1: to many people in our audience.

590
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, one of the things when I

591
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 2: started really investigating this story that really jumped out at

592
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 2: me was that, you know, I always just assumed that

593
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 2: the clan had, you know, racial motives and everything, but

594
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 2: they were also sort of this moral enforcer in these

595
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 2: communities in the Deep South. Say you're a mother of

596
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 2: a child and you're you have an alcohol problem, you're

597
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 2: drinking a lot, and you're neglecting your child, you might

598
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,239
Speaker 2: get a visit from the clan and a beating. And

599
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:28,959
Speaker 2: that was the way they sort of enforced this moral code.

600
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 2: If you were beating your wife, that might earn you

601
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:33,719
Speaker 2: a visit from the Klan. And the clan was very

602
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 2: much involved in this part of Florida. And Willie Paget

603
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 2: had a reputation and I've seen his rap sheet for

604
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 2: being rough with women, and so it seems very likely

605
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 2: those were the rumors in town that he was hurting Norma,

606
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 2: and that's why they separated. So, you know, we don't

607
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 2: know what happened that night where he pulls the car

608
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 2: over on the side of the road, But the next

609
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 2: thing we know that, you know, Norma's making these accusations

610
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 2: that she was abducted and sexually assaulted by these four

611
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 2: black men, and Sheriff Willis McCall had to put this

612
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 2: story together, and that's why he's out there searching for

613
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 2: people that he thinks are good suspects for this.

614
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 1: You know, it's really crazy, Gilbert, and it's giving me

615
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 1: the chills to think about. But knowing what we know

616
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 1: about Paget's, you know, proclivity for violence against women, it's

617
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 1: within the realm of possibility that by stopping their car

618
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 1: they may have actually saved Norma's life and then it

619
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 1: turns around full circle and she ends up creating this

620
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 1: false narrative and false accusations that ended theirs effectively right.

621
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 1: And of course your book does such an incredible job

622
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 1: of exposing this, and that book, that work of yours,

623
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 1: it led to the absolute pardons for these four men

624
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: in January twenty nineteen.

625
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know that was really remarkable because I'd go

626
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 2: around and do these lectures down in Florida's talking about

627
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 2: the story, and more and more people were reading about it.

628
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 2: And I remember like being at certain book signings where

629
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 2: people would come up to me and sort of whisper

630
00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 2: in my ear like, don't worry, we're looking into this.

631
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 2: We're going to we're going to help you. And I'm like, always, well,

632
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 2: who are these people? And one time a guy said,

633
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 2: you know, watch the news tonight, and a Senator Marco

634
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 2: Rubio stood on the floors of Senate and basically said,

635
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:14,959
Speaker 2: you know, now is the time to acknowledge the wrongdoing

636
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 2: with the Groveland Four. These men need to be pardoned.

637
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,959
Speaker 2: And there became this movement and I was kind of

638
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 2: watching this very curiously, and you know, sure enough, you

639
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 2: had Ron DeSantis who was running for governor at this time.

640
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 2: He actually said publicly that when I take office, if

641
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 2: I win, this is going to be one of the

642
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 2: first things that I address. And you know, a lot

643
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 2: of people were very surprised by this, that it was

644
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 2: taken on this sort of bipartisan level of support. And

645
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 2: sure enough, I think just like two days into Governor

646
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 2: DeSantis's first term, he called up a meeting with his

647
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 2: cabinet and it was you know, I went there. It

648
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 2: was up in Tallahassee. It was extraordinary. Family members of

649
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 2: the Groveland four testified. You know, I also testified, and

650
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 2: you know, basically my point was, this isn't a he said.

651
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 2: She said, We're going on documentation. There's proof of perjury,

652
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 2: prosecutorial misconduct. That's the reason we're here today to address

653
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 2: what happened in that courtroom to these men who were

654
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:13,359
Speaker 2: wrongly accused of this. They voted right there, unanimously on

655
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 2: the floor to pardon the Groveland flour and to have

656
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 2: the investigation reopened.

657
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 1: So, despite Ron DeSantis's record otherwise, there's no doubt that

658
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 1: this was the right thing to do, Even in the

659
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,720
Speaker 1: face of Norma Paget, who was still alive and voiced

660
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 1: her opposition. So what happened with the case after it

661
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 1: was reopened?

662
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,759
Speaker 2: The Attorney General of Florida put the Florida Department of

663
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 2: Law Enforcement in charge of the investigation, and two agents

664
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 2: came up to me in New York. I gave them

665
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 2: all my files, and so the FDL did like a

666
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 2: two year investigation and the bar is there needs to

667
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 2: be new evidence in order to get to a posthumous exoneration.

668
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:55,719
Speaker 2: And that report concluded that there's no new evidence. And

669
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 2: I remember his State Attorney, Bill Gladson called me up

670
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 2: and he said, you know there any new evidence out there?

671
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 2: Have you found out anything? Because I just cannot go

672
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 2: back to these families and tell them that there's nothing

673
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 2: that can be done. And so one of the things

674
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 2: that had always haunted me about this case was that

675
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 2: the physical evidence from both trials for seventy years, it

676
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,840
Speaker 2: was missing. About two weeks later, I got a text

677
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 2: with a photograph from State Attorney Bill Gladson, and it

678
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 2: was a box that he had found in a different courthouse,

679
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 2: and he said it was the Groveland evidence and inside

680
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 2: that box where the jeans the dungarees that Walter Irvin

681
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:36,319
Speaker 2: was wearing on the night of this alleged attack, and

682
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 2: the prosecutor, Jesse Hunter, had held up these pants in

683
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,400
Speaker 2: both trials and pointed to a stain and said to

684
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,800
Speaker 2: the jury, this stain was evaluated. It's a human stain

685
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 2: and it belongs to Walter Irvin. He's guilty. Well, Gladson

686
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 2: took those pants and you could still see the stain

687
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 2: on it, and he had them DNA tested and the

688
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 2: results came back that that was not a human See.

689
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:05,720
Speaker 2: So Jesse Hunter, the prosecutor, had lied about the evidence

690
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 2: against Walter Irvin, and state Attorney Gladson said that rises

691
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 2: to new evidence I can use that.

692
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 1: You know, to bring it full circle. In August twenty

693
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:18,840
Speaker 1: twenty one, investigators spoke with a grandson of Jesse Hunter,

694
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 1: Roward Hunter. The grandson said that he had found correspondence

695
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 1: in his grandfather's law office that convinced him that Jesse Hunter,

696
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 1: the prosecutor at the time, and the judge presiding over

697
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:34,760
Speaker 1: the retrial, both knew that no rape had occurred. Investigators

698
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,720
Speaker 1: were also skeptical about evidence when provided by James Yates,

699
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 1: a sheriff's deputy who was the state's primary witness of

700
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 1: the nineteen forty nine trial and the nineteen fifty one retrial.

701
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,720
Speaker 2: Basically what they did was they confiscated Walter Irvin shoes

702
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 2: the night he was arrested, and they basically took the

703
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 2: shoes and made these fake plaster of impressions. It was

704
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 2: completely manufactured. I'd later found out that this same deputy,

705
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,919
Speaker 2: James Yates, actually got caught a couple of years later

706
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 2: doing this when one of the deputies turned him in

707
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:06,719
Speaker 2: and said he's not taking these footprints from the crime scene,

708
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 2: He's going in the backyard and doing it on the

709
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,280
Speaker 2: soil there. And the FBI did an investigation and found

710
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 2: out that that's exactly what happened. And so Yeates later

711
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 2: got indicted himself for manufacturing evidence, which he was doing

712
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 2: throughout his career.

713
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 1: So what did Gladson finally do with all of this evidence?

714
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 2: Gladson wrote this incredible motion calling for the immediate dismissal

715
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 2: of charges against all four of the Groveland Four, saying

716
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:37,359
Speaker 2: that the prosecution embarrassed themselves, perjured themselves, and committed a

717
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 2: grave injustice against these four wrongfully accused men.

718
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,800
Speaker 1: So, in November twenty twenty one, Circuit Court Judge Heidi

719
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,799
Speaker 1: Davis in Lake County, Florida, granted the state's motion to

720
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 1: posthumously dismiss the indictments of Ernest Thomas and Samuel Sheppard

721
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:56,840
Speaker 1: and vacated the convictions of Charles Greenlee and Walter Irvin.

722
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 2: And so Florida, you know, however you want to look

723
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 2: at it, they actually did follow up with this and

724
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:07,400
Speaker 2: did correct this gross justice, so that the names of

725
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:09,720
Speaker 2: the grove and four are now officially cleared.

726
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 1: Amen to that it's too late, but it's not too late.

727
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 1: So I don't even know if that makes sense, but

728
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 1: it's just how I feel and can't help thinking about

729
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 1: all the other cases we'll never know about, as we

730
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 1: might never have known about this one if not for

731
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 1: that incredible twist of fate that that young man survived

732
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 1: being shot three times on the side of a dirt road,

733
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 1: handcuffed to his best friend. So, Gilbert, look this story.

734
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:40,400
Speaker 1: I'm so glad we did this. I'm so again just

735
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 1: honored to work with you and to know you and

736
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 1: call you my friend. And you know, every episode we

737
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 1: end the same way, which is what the segment called

738
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 1: closing arguments. It's where I get to turn my microphone off,

739
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 1: kick back in my chair with my headphones on and

740
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 1: just listen for you to share any final thoughts.

741
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:03,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, thanks, Jason, I really appreciate and you know,

742
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 2: I sit here, you know, I listen to your show

743
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 2: all the time. And one of the things that's sort

744
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 2: of depressing about this story is that, you know, there

745
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:13,719
Speaker 2: is no person who survived all this who is able

746
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 2: to come back on and say, at least justice was

747
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:19,880
Speaker 2: done all for the Groven for or you know, deceased.

748
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 2: Now there's family members who basically do say that, you know,

749
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,800
Speaker 2: this obviously is not going to bring back their family members.

750
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:29,839
Speaker 2: But these were people who continued to live in Lake

751
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 2: County for decades under the false narrative that their relatives

752
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 2: were convicted rapists and that the sheriff was defending himself

753
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 2: because these bad people tried to kill the fine sheriff

754
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,360
Speaker 2: of Lake County. And that's why narratives are so important.

755
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,239
Speaker 2: If Walter Irvin had died on the side of that road,

756
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:50,799
Speaker 2: like he said, nobody ever hears of this story, the

757
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:54,359
Speaker 2: official narrative of Sheriff Willis McCall would have carried the day.

758
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 2: And I think that there are so many cases like

759
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 2: this especially in the Deep South where you have these

760
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 2: young men who are just absolutely railroaded by the system.

761
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 2: They don't have lawyers who put up much of a fight.

762
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 2: They actually serve as like lampposts on the side and

763
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 2: sort of our tools in leading towards the convictions. And

764
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 2: this is what the system looked like back then. Well,

765
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 2: you know, the system really isn't that much different today.

766
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 2: Things have gotten better in the courts, and certainly technology

767
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:28,760
Speaker 2: has helped us. Like I said, you know, Walter Irvin's

768
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 2: story dispels the official narrative because you can see it

769
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 2: with your own eyes. There's a bullet that ended up

770
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:38,040
Speaker 2: exactly where Walter Irvin said it was that proved that

771
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:41,759
Speaker 2: this was murder and attempted murder. And these stories are

772
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:44,759
Speaker 2: just common back in the day. And you know, you

773
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 2: can look to cases like Trayvon Martin, which happened in

774
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 2: the same part of Central Florida twenty twelve. Right when

775
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:54,319
Speaker 2: this book came out, and I can't tell you how

776
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 2: many people came up to me and said, you know,

777
00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:00,160
Speaker 2: nothing's changed. The official narrative is not the correct narrative,

778
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 2: you know. And the only thing I really add in

779
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 2: closing is that thanks to people like Thurgood Marshall and

780
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:09,840
Speaker 2: Franklin Williams and NAACP lawyers, the justice system is different.

781
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 2: I mean, it's hard to imagine a time back in

782
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 2: nineteen forty where you could actually coerce and beat a

783
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:18,920
Speaker 2: defendant and if he confessed, it was a legitimate confession

784
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 2: in court. These are the things that these lawyers were

785
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:24,720
Speaker 2: fighting against. So the system is better, but it's still

786
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 2: obviously these kinds of wrongful convictions are happening all the time,

787
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 2: and that's why it's so important for a show like

788
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:35,240
Speaker 2: Wrongful Conviction. These stories are going a long way towards

789
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 2: not just educating jurors future jurors, but also improving the

790
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 2: integrity of the courts that we do get them wrong

791
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 2: sometimes and that we need to listen to these stories

792
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 2: when there's compelling evidence of innocence.

793
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen

794
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:58,319
Speaker 1: to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts one

795
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,360
Speaker 1: week early by subscribing to La for Good Plus on

796
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our production team Connor hall, Any,

797
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 1: Chelsea Lyla Robinson, and Kathleen Fink, as well as my

798
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:12,440
Speaker 1: fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Awardis, and Jeff Cliburn.

799
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:14,839
Speaker 1: The music in this production was supplied by three time

800
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 1: OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us

801
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 1: across all social media platforms at Lava for Good and

802
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram

803
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 1: at it's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is a production of

804
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:31,479
Speaker 1: Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number

805
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 1: one