Speaker 1: Last time on ear witness, I believe I.
Speaker 2: Got a phone call from someone in the room saying
Speaker 2: they heard gunshots.
Speaker 3: Boom, small caliber gun.
Speaker 4: They want a big caliber boom.
Speaker 5: About the second time myself been with them, that was
Speaker 5: a gun.
Speaker 3: When you got a definite share of killed over here.
Speaker 3: It's high profile and people are expecting things out here.
Speaker 6: Tavarra Junica. I remember he was pushing a Drinka's four
Speaker 6: in the wheelchair.
Speaker 1: They came together.
Speaker 2: I had saw too far.
Speaker 1: Was pushing Adrika's in the club.
Speaker 7: Me and one of my girlfriends they had named Katanya,
Speaker 7: Me and hr and two two guys are supposed to hook.
Speaker 8: Up that night.
Speaker 7: One is twenty one.
Speaker 8: They called him Dre. He's in a wheelchair.
Speaker 3: Not only do you want somebody in custody? The captain
Speaker 3: is telling in the liew townt we need to get
Speaker 3: this done. The sheriff is telling the captain, we need
Speaker 3: to get this done.
Speaker 9: I think he taking hand.
Speaker 8: How was there.
Speaker 3: And we went there?
Speaker 10: So what she's saying?
Speaker 3: She was there and I was there.
Speaker 8: That's a life, that's a lot. That's a shame.
Speaker 1: When police come looking for ar dregas Ford, his mom
Speaker 1: calls Richard Jeffy, who had helped them in the past.
Speaker 11: Ar Dregas was in a wheelchair, as you know, and
Speaker 11: his mother brought him over to the lions Den to
Speaker 11: the Sheriff's department.
Speaker 1: Jeffy's a trial lawyer, and he looks like one, but
Speaker 1: not in a slick way. He's slender in a rumpled
Speaker 1: suit with gray hair and glasses. The day Ardregas went
Speaker 1: to the Sheriff's office for questioning. Jaffy is just beginning
Speaker 1: a trial in a different case, but before he goes
Speaker 1: to court that day, he gets a phone call from
Speaker 1: the Sheriff's office.
Speaker 11: I was called by a Deputy Blanton and he said,
Speaker 11: I heard that you were representing Ardregas Ford and I went, yes,
Speaker 11: I was just contacted by the family, but I don't
Speaker 11: know anything about the case. And he said, well, look,
Speaker 11: he's just a witness. I mean, he just knows stuff.
Speaker 11: And I knew Deputy Blanton, and I believed if he
Speaker 11: had information involving a police shooting, I wanted to help,
Speaker 11: and Ardregus did too, and against my best judgment, I
Speaker 11: allowed Ardragas to be interviewed by and several other Jefferson
Speaker 11: County detectives.
Speaker 1: So our Dregus is questioned alone while his attorney, Jaffe,
Speaker 1: heads to the courthouse.
Speaker 11: Perhaps around four thirty or five when we broke, I
Speaker 11: found out that Ardregis was still there, so he'd been
Speaker 11: there all day, like maybe nine hours, and I was
Speaker 11: extremely distraught, so I hurried over there. It was just
Speaker 11: across the street, and when I got into the very
Speaker 11: large room, it was buzzing with detectives and police officers,
Speaker 11: and you could feel the tension was It was enormous
Speaker 11: amount of tension.
Speaker 1: There in the crowd of police officers and detectives. Jaffe
Speaker 1: notices Jefferson County's district attorney, a man named David Barber.
Speaker 1: He's in charge of all state prosecutions in Alabama's law
Speaker 1: or just jurisdiction, and is working with police in the
Speaker 1: Deputy Hardy murder investigation. When Jeffie sees Barber, he walks
Speaker 1: over to him and.
Speaker 11: I said, what's going on with our Dragus And David said, well,
Speaker 11: we know he was there and he's not telling us
Speaker 11: the truth, so we're going to charge him. He can
Speaker 11: either be a witness or a defendant. I said, well,
Speaker 11: what are you saying, and he said, just that witness
Speaker 11: are defendant.
Speaker 8: It's his choice.
Speaker 1: The choice detectives are giving our dragis either he gives
Speaker 1: them information about Hardy's murder or he'll be charged with
Speaker 1: a crime.
Speaker 11: If I had any idea that they thought he was there,
Speaker 11: I nor any lawyer would allow their client in any case,
Speaker 11: especially we're a definitely case. It's being interviewed by law enforcement.
Speaker 11: They just wouldn't allow it. Frankly, I felt a little
Speaker 11: inept and a little foolish, as well as a little deceived.
Speaker 11: And I said, well, what can I do to help?
Speaker 11: And he said, we'll go in there and get him
Speaker 11: to tell the truth. And I said, well, then you're
Speaker 11: going to have to give him immunity.
Speaker 1: According to Jeffy, David Barber offers ar Dregas immunity from
Speaker 1: prosecution in exchange for naming to Forrest as the shooter.
Speaker 1: Jeffy says, Barber hand writes the immunity agreement on a
Speaker 1: piece of paper and gives it to him.
Speaker 11: David's word was good with me. And I walked into
Speaker 11: a little office where Ardregas was in his wheelchair sitting there.
Speaker 11: Didn't look happy, certainly, wasn't happy with me at all,
Speaker 11: and I said, what's going on? And he said they
Speaker 11: were screaming at me, and they made me tell the
Speaker 11: story over and over and over again, and even tell
Speaker 11: it backwards. And I said, well, this is an immunity agreement.
Speaker 11: Maybe we should talk about it. And he reads it
Speaker 11: and he said, said, so they want me to lie.
Speaker 11: He said, look, mister Jaffy, I wasn't there, and I've
Speaker 11: got a dozen or more alibi witnesses that will testify
Speaker 11: to that I know nothing about it. Zero. I said, okay,
Speaker 11: well they think that you're not a shooter, but you
Speaker 11: were there, and they think to Forrest is the shooter.
Speaker 11: And he looked at me and he said, listen, I'm
Speaker 11: not going to lie for anybody. To Forrest and I
Speaker 11: are close, but we're not that close. He's not family.
Speaker 11: I would happy to give to Forrest up in a heartbeat,
Speaker 11: except it would be a lie. And I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker 11: That never happens, even on a theft case, even on
Speaker 11: a possession of marijuana case, even on a hubcap case.
Speaker 11: Everybody flips sadly enough to save themselves. Yeah, he said,
Speaker 11: no way, not gonna lie. I said, all right, well
Speaker 11: they're going to take you to jail. They're going to
Speaker 11: wheel you to jail, and they're going to charge you
Speaker 11: with capital murder, which is death penalty offense. And he goes,
Speaker 11: I wasn't there. Tell him to take me to jail,
Speaker 11: and they did.
Speaker 1: The next day, the Jefferson County Sheriff's Office announces formal
Speaker 1: charges in the murder of Deputy Bill Hardy.
Speaker 4: Charged with capital murder of a law enforcement officer our
Speaker 4: twenty two year old tor Forrest Johnson, twenty one year
Speaker 4: old are Dragis Ford, twenty three year old Ohman Berry,
Speaker 4: and twenty one year old Quinn Tes Wilson. They are
Speaker 4: held without bond.
Speaker 1: All four people charged with capital murder are young black men.
Speaker 1: Based on the changing stories of Yolanda Chambers, detectives believe
Speaker 1: at least six people were in the parking lot behind
Speaker 1: the hotel when Hardy was Shotlanda and Latanya to Forrest
Speaker 1: and Ardregis, and the two other people Yolanda identified in photos,
Speaker 1: Omar Barry and Quintez Wilson. The headline and the Birmingham
Speaker 1: News reads police confident they got right men and deputy
Speaker 1: slaying sounds like an open and shut investigation, but pull
Speaker 1: back the curtain or in this case, open up the
Speaker 1: investigative file and the inner workings tell a different story.
Speaker 7: Do you he my man?
Speaker 8: It is.
Speaker 12: Lab hads ma be sorrow dep re list.
Speaker 7: In this bas both tears.
Speaker 12: I want to see.
Speaker 7: Revelation. I want to know who you A'm retional in
Speaker 7: thisspiration to the wood. Who's holding? Start to the Who's holding?
Speaker 1: I'm Beth Shelburn. This is ear witness Chapter four, Witness
Speaker 1: or defendant the tactic the state uses with Ardregis telling
Speaker 1: him he can either be a witness or a defendant.
Speaker 1: Detective Tony Richardson repeats it over and over during Deputy
Speaker 1: Hardy's murder investigation.
Speaker 8: You are in a position now to be one of
Speaker 8: two things.
Speaker 9: Okay, you can either be a witness or.
Speaker 8: You can be a defendant. You know, you can either
Speaker 8: be a witness or you can be a defendant.
Speaker 9: Can only be either a witness or you can be
Speaker 9: a defendant. Okay, it's your choice, you make it. You
Speaker 9: tell me what you want to do.
Speaker 1: One of the people Tony Richardson uses this tactic on
Speaker 1: is Yolanda Chamber's friend Latanya Henderson, who is in the
Speaker 1: car with DeForest Ardregis and Yolanda, the night Deputy Hardy
Speaker 1: was killed.
Speaker 9: Datanya, I am working a homicide, okay, And in working
Speaker 9: this homicide, people have choices. It's choice whether you want
Speaker 9: to be a witness or you want to be a defendant.
Speaker 1: Latanya is sixteen years old. She's in high school and
Speaker 1: lives with her mother and brother. And as she's questioned
Speaker 1: about the knight of the murder, she's alone in the
Speaker 1: room with detectives, no lawyer, no parent present.
Speaker 8: I'm not saying anything to entice you to say something.
Speaker 9: You tell me what was the truth, and you tell
Speaker 9: me that's the truth, and I'm gonna take it like that.
Speaker 8: But I do want you to know that some people
Speaker 8: are going to be witnesses. Some are going to be defendants.
Speaker 8: Defendants going to jail. Okay.
Speaker 1: Now, after giving Latania this choice, Detective Richardson asks her
Speaker 1: where she was that night?
Speaker 9: Were you at NIA or around at hotel when this
Speaker 9: officer was shot?
Speaker 8: No, sir, okay, And you've never been there before. No,
Speaker 8: I haven't.
Speaker 9: And you have no independent knowledge of what happened to
Speaker 9: this office.
Speaker 8: No I haven't.
Speaker 1: Despite being told she's a suspect and a murder Latania
Speaker 1: does not change her story, but she also doesn't seem
Speaker 1: to understand the rules of the game detectives are playing.
Speaker 1: She asks Detective Richardson to explain, that's a.
Speaker 8: Question, is defendent of someone's charged with the crime? Well? No, no, no, no, defendant?
Speaker 13: No?
Speaker 8: All right, so you want to.
Speaker 1: Be Latanya has to ask what it means to be
Speaker 1: a defendant, then says she doesn't want to be charged
Speaker 1: with the crime. At one point, Richardson stops the tape
Speaker 1: like he's done in Yolanda's interviews, and restarts it after
Speaker 1: a five minute break.
Speaker 9: You know what the crown starney isn't Would you know
Speaker 9: it if you saw it?
Speaker 14: No?
Speaker 8: I have never seen it. I have nothing.
Speaker 9: Were you in any hotel parking lot that night where
Speaker 9: shots were fire?
Speaker 8: You know?
Speaker 9: Okay, this sort of Tony rich and justin kind of
Speaker 9: shares shot at the time, it's three fifty pm.
Speaker 8: This is going to conclude this interview.
Speaker 1: In a lot of the interviews that you did in
Speaker 1: this case, you and Sergeant Salter presented a choice. You
Speaker 1: can be a witness or you can be a defendant.
Speaker 1: Tell me about presenting that to somebody that you're interviewing.
Speaker 1: That seems like a lot of pressure to put on someone.
Speaker 3: Well, at certain times you have to put pressure on somebody.
Speaker 8: That's just a that's just a strategy. That's that's just an.
Speaker 3: Investigative too, that's that.
Speaker 8: That's nothing.
Speaker 3: So I look at you and I say, look, you
Speaker 3: can either be a witness.
Speaker 8: Or you can be a defendant. It's up to you.
Speaker 8: And that's the truth.
Speaker 1: What if the person is neither a witness nor a
Speaker 1: defendant in the case, though.
Speaker 3: Well, sometimes you say that trying to determine if they
Speaker 3: are witness or defendant, you know, particularly if you don't know,
Speaker 3: and if they continue to maintain I know nothing, at
Speaker 3: some point I'm gonna say, okay, I got you.
Speaker 1: But for Latania, there was never an okay, I got
Speaker 1: you from investigators. Even though she explains she doesn't know
Speaker 1: anything about the crime, detectives follow through with their threat
Speaker 1: and make her a defendant. One month after Tony Richardson
Speaker 1: questions Latania, the state charges her with hindering prosecution in Alabama.
Speaker 1: That's a felony at sixteen years old. Police take Latania
Speaker 1: Henderson to adult jail, where she stays for five months.
Speaker 15: You know, Latania Henderson. I mean, even if she had
Speaker 15: been there. Yeah, even Iflanda's story was true.
Speaker 8: What she had defendant on, you know, what has she done?
Speaker 1: This is Derek Drennan, a lawyer who worked with Richard
Speaker 1: Jeffy in representing Ardregis.
Speaker 15: Ford, and I don't know. I think they charged with
Speaker 15: hindering prosecution, maybe because because basically she wasn't telling the
Speaker 15: lies that Yolanda was telling.
Speaker 1: A few years later, Latania says that she was hysterical
Speaker 1: when they took her to jail, desperate to get detectives
Speaker 1: to believe her. She says that she suffered from stress
Speaker 1: and lost too much weight. I really wanted to talk
Speaker 1: to Latanya to hear how this experience shaped her, and
Speaker 1: we tried for months to track her down, looking on doors,
Speaker 1: calling possible numbers, combing social media, but we never could connect.
Speaker 1: I was able to talk to her uncle, Herman Henderson,
Speaker 1: a pastor in Birmingham. He told me Latania and Yolanda
Speaker 1: had been friends since they were babies, but this case
Speaker 1: ended their friendship and Latanya was scarred by the entire experience.
Speaker 1: Her trust in other people eroded. Yolanda Chambers and Latanya
Speaker 1: Henderson made different choices when faced with threats from police.
Speaker 1: There's a damned if you do, damned if you don't
Speaker 1: dynamic and how they were each impacted. Yolanda became a
Speaker 1: witness for detectives, avoiding jail time during Hardy's murder investigation,
Speaker 1: but entered a pattern of exploitation that may have led
Speaker 1: to her murder. Latanya became a defendant for telling the truth.
Speaker 1: She didn't have any information to give, and detectives sent
Speaker 1: her to jail. Both Yolanda and Latanya ended up traumatized
Speaker 1: and hurt. And as I think through how detectives treated
Speaker 1: these witnesses and the suspects of Harty's murder, I keep
Speaker 1: coming back to this one thing that Tony Richardson.
Speaker 3: Said, The best thing that a person probably can do
Speaker 3: for themselves that's suspected of a crime is do not
Speaker 3: talk to the bout pace period.
Speaker 1: Now that's really interesting coming from a retired detective.
Speaker 8: But that's the truth.
Speaker 1: Detectives are moving ahead with the theory of the crime
Speaker 1: that Yolanda Chambers gives them and her interrogations, even though
Speaker 1: the theory isn't supported by what hotel witnesses saw and
Speaker 1: heard the night of the murder. So what were detectives missing,
Speaker 1: what evidence was available? And was there anything else they
Speaker 1: should have looked at but didn't because they decided to
Speaker 1: stick with Yolanda as their key witness. Let's back up
Speaker 1: to the moment Hardy was shot. We know officers began
Speaker 1: their investigation by talking to hotel guests actual confirmed witnesses
Speaker 1: who were staying at the Crown Sterling Suites. Several people
Speaker 1: heard the shots and looked out their window right after
Speaker 1: it happened, like Marshal Kelly Cummings the Keebler Cookie Guy.
Speaker 10: Following the interview with mister Marshall Kelly Cummings, mitter Collens
Speaker 10: is in polled by Kedler.
Speaker 1: This interview was recorded about two and a half hours
Speaker 1: after Hardy was shot. Cummings says he saw someone get
Speaker 1: into a car and drive away from the hotel right
Speaker 1: after he heard the shots fired.
Speaker 8: Immediately seen the savend shot wrung out.
Speaker 3: I pulled the cartain back and looked out and that's
Speaker 3: when I saw the car down below me.
Speaker 8: I saw the a person.
Speaker 1: Cummings says he saw the person close the driver's side door.
Speaker 8: I looked at closing witch door the driver shot.
Speaker 1: He saw a copper colored or light brown car with
Speaker 1: a vinyl top, slowly back out of the parking spot
Speaker 1: and drive away with the headlights off.
Speaker 8: But you think it was a dark copper or like browd, Yes, sir.
Speaker 1: And there was another witness in a different hotel room
Speaker 1: who also looked out his window after he heard the shots.
Speaker 8: All right, we heard a shot. I jumped up.
Speaker 14: I actually a doorged in my head out.
Speaker 1: The night of the murder, Leon Calvin was staying in
Speaker 1: room six' eleven with his Wife. Annie the two of
Speaker 1: them were in. Bed he was WATCHING tv and she
Speaker 1: was reading the. Newspaper they heard the first shot And
Speaker 1: leon Told annie he thought it was a car. Backfiring
Speaker 1: he heard a.
Speaker 8: Shot. Bang tell me how long after is?
Speaker 7: It?
Speaker 9: Bang?
Speaker 8: Bang, okay so Just i'll second or so.
Speaker 1: Yeah after the second, Shot calvin went to the window
Speaker 1: to see what was going.
Speaker 16: On seeing a.
Speaker 3: Car down by the bag of the, motel.
Speaker 8: He walked up, beside came round in front of the
Speaker 8: car and got in the.
Speaker 1: Car calvin's description of the car and what the car
Speaker 1: did is it left the parking lot matches the details
Speaker 1: given By Marshall.
Speaker 13: CUMMINGS i told him it was there was a dog
Speaker 13: colored gold all brown with a kind of maroon looking
Speaker 13: top with a sun.
Speaker 1: Roping Both cummings And calvin say the car was a
Speaker 1: four door, brown gold or copper sedan with a maroon.
Speaker 1: Top that's so. Specific they both say it was the
Speaker 1: only car leaving the parking lot right after shots were.
Speaker 1: Fired what these witnesses saw doesn't match the theory of the,
Speaker 1: murder detectives go with. Manicolo ardregis describes his car to
Speaker 1: detectives the day he's. Arrested he was driving a two
Speaker 1: door black nineteen seventy One Monte. Carlo we'll call it Blood.
Speaker 1: End he had installed Flow master, mufflers so it made a,
Speaker 1: loud rumbling.
Speaker 17: SOUND i got like flow.
Speaker 8: Mass you got these Floor masters?
Speaker 1: Loud, okay people could Hear ardregas's car coming from blocks
Speaker 1: away To forest tells detectives that when they picked Up,
Speaker 1: latanya they actually waited for her in an alley because
Speaker 1: they didn't want to wake up the entire. House But
Speaker 1: calvin And cummings say that the light brown or copper
Speaker 1: colored car quietly drove out of the parking, lot and
Speaker 1: there's an even bigger discrepancy not.
Speaker 8: Do i'll grove a door on.
Speaker 1: Over the driver's side door On ardregas's very loud Black
Speaker 1: Monte carlo was. Broken it did not, open Ar dregas
Speaker 1: and to forst tell this to Detectives Dreda.
Speaker 8: Domo At Duel delt the driver doom went.
Speaker 1: Off investigators impounded Are dregis's car and confirmed the driver's
Speaker 1: side door didn't. Open Detective Tony richardson would later testify to,
Speaker 1: this but Both calvin And cummings say that someone got
Speaker 1: in the driver's side of the car and quietly drove.
Speaker 3: AWAY i seen.
Speaker 8: Him he walked from the patent's side round in front
Speaker 8: of the car to the driver side the.
Speaker 1: Gadion there were other guests at the hotel who spotted
Speaker 1: cars leaving the area around this, time but their descriptions
Speaker 1: were all. Different the only consistent descriptions of the getaway
Speaker 1: car came From cummings And, calvin two people who went
Speaker 1: to their hotel room windows after hearing shots and looked
Speaker 1: down into the parking. Lot the investigative file shows that
Speaker 1: police tried to find the car seen By calvin In,
Speaker 1: cummings But Tony richardson would eventually tell a grand jury
Speaker 1: the search was a wild goose, chase and that the
Speaker 1: car didn't. Exist and there's something even more significant about
Speaker 1: this other hotel, Witness Leon. Calvin he gives police a
Speaker 1: basic description of the. Man he saw five foot, ten
Speaker 1: medium build who got into the car and drove.
Speaker 9: Away, yeah a black and white driver shirt and it
Speaker 9: looked like he had count.
Speaker 8: Be catty the.
Speaker 1: Summer calvin describes the man as wearing a black and
Speaker 1: white shirt and khaki or cream. Pants this is the
Speaker 1: only physical description given of a potential, suspect but detectives
Speaker 1: decide That calvin isn't a, Witness he's a. Defendant AS
Speaker 1: i dig, DEEPER i learn That Detective Tony richardson And
Speaker 1: Leon colvin are, cousins and in the first week of the,
Speaker 1: Investigation richardson decides That colvin is hiding. Something we have.
Speaker 8: Talked with several.
Speaker 9: People people we have talked to have have indicated that
Speaker 9: you do know.
Speaker 1: More calvin gives detectives multiple statements about what he heard and,
Speaker 1: saw And Tony richardson interrogates him for hours about his
Speaker 1: movements inside the hotel the night of the, murder insisting
Speaker 1: That calvin was.
Speaker 9: Involved if you tell us one thing and it's not.
Speaker 9: Accurate if we know that you know, different and you
Speaker 9: can be charged with the. Crime, okay just show you a.
Speaker 1: Note Tony richardson Shows Yolanda chambers four photo of possible.
Speaker 1: Suspects yolanda picks out the photo Of Leon calvin and
Speaker 1: says he was involved in the alleged drug deal behind
Speaker 1: the hotel When hardy was.
Speaker 9: Killed loud of that, light, upset you were standing right
Speaker 9: there when the man was.
Speaker 1: Shot Leon calvin is charged with hindering prosecution and taken to.
Speaker 14: Jail, well my.
Speaker 4: Most, HEY i aint did did?
Speaker 9: HIM i ain't did?
Speaker 3: NONE i did? HIM i did did?
Speaker 10: HIM i did.
Speaker 1: Him police press ahead With ardregis into forrest as two
Speaker 1: of their main, suspects even though there is no record
Speaker 1: of any hotel witness describing a loud two door Black
Speaker 1: Bonnie carlo leaving the scene or a man in a.
Speaker 1: Wheelchair there's another clue in the file that jumps out at.
Speaker 1: ME a police report from a day after the murder
Speaker 1: states that a hotel worker Named jerry McDaniel told detectives
Speaker 1: that he Saw Deputy hardy arguing with a group of
Speaker 1: young black men who had been running around inside the,
Speaker 1: hotel especially the sixth. Floor there's even a description of
Speaker 1: one of these young, men six feet, tall, slim wearing a,
Speaker 1: dark baggy basketball jersey with the number thirty three on.
Speaker 1: It WHEN i first read, THIS i was, LIKE whoa
Speaker 1: What this information seems super. Relevant hardy was arguing with
Speaker 1: the group of people just hours before he was. Murdered
Speaker 1: jerry McDaniel would later testify in court that he Saw
Speaker 1: hardy having this loud argument with the group of young
Speaker 1: men around TEN, pm and that he Saw hardy again
Speaker 1: before he left for the night around eleven. Thirty McDaniel
Speaker 1: Said hardy was standing at the back door of the,
Speaker 1: hotel propping it open with his. Foot he also spotted
Speaker 1: the same group of young men outside in the back
Speaker 1: parking lot as he left work to go. Home he
Speaker 1: said that after the, Confrontation hardy seemed, mad SAYING i
Speaker 1: ain't never seen him like that. Before but detectives never
Speaker 1: identified the young men and later say their interview With
Speaker 1: jerry McDaniel never led to any more. EVIDENCE i want
Speaker 1: to pursue. This If jerry McDaniel is still, around maybe
Speaker 1: he can give us some new information about those last
Speaker 1: hours Of hardy's, life something about the young men he
Speaker 1: saw arguing With, hardy some new nugget to breathe life
Speaker 1: into this. Case i'm looking, for, Mister jerry, McDaniel.
Speaker 14: Is that?
Speaker 8: You thank you so.
Speaker 1: Much jerry McDaniel is retired in his seventies and lives
Speaker 1: in a small green Shake shingle, bungalow the same house
Speaker 1: he's lived in his entire adult. Life we talk on
Speaker 1: his porch and he Remembers hardy's murder conversation with.
Speaker 10: Anybody, Yeah, Coase i'm moving around SO i see. Everything
Speaker 10: i've become total ashn and. Stuff you, know there's been
Speaker 10: a lot of stuff going on that.
Speaker 3: Hotel.
Speaker 1: Dogs McDaniel also remembers Seeing hardy argue with the group
Speaker 1: of young men inside the. HOTEL i, mean did it
Speaker 1: seem Like Deputy hardy knew those?
Speaker 8: PEOPLE i don't.
Speaker 10: Know you might have known him cause he something he
Speaker 10: he wanted something they had or something they didn't give
Speaker 10: him SOMETHING i don't what it.
Speaker 1: Was and about an hour and a half, later when
Speaker 1: he ended his shift and left the, building he passed By,
Speaker 1: hardy who was standing at the hotel's back. Door do
Speaker 1: you remember look exactly what you.
Speaker 10: Saw, yeah he was standing at the back door back
Speaker 10: there to the, right and and it was a CAR
Speaker 10: i did WHEN i, left you, know read, there read
Speaker 10: dead to back by what a dark.
Speaker 1: Bed but that's pretty much all he. Remembers had police
Speaker 1: aggressively pursued this, lead they might have gotten. Somewhere but,
Speaker 1: now decades, later McDaniel can no longer recall any other
Speaker 1: specific details about the car or anything else from that.
Speaker 1: Night whatever he, saw whoever those young men, were that
Speaker 1: potential big lead has, faded likely impossible to. Recover after
Speaker 1: reading through hundreds of pages of, Reports there's a question
Speaker 1: that still sticks with. Me why Did Deputy hardy leave
Speaker 1: the hotel atrium where he was drinking coffee and smoking
Speaker 1: a cigarette to go out the back door to the
Speaker 1: parking lot without his radio and then.
Speaker 16: Ute every hour on the hour or so or every
Speaker 16: hour and a, half he would do a drive around
Speaker 16: the premises to check out the perimeter of the.
Speaker 1: Hotel according To Barry, rushikov the hotel desk, Clerk hardy's
Speaker 1: routine was to walk around inside the hotel when he
Speaker 1: was making his, rounds but when he checked around the
Speaker 1: outside of the, hotel he usually drove around the property
Speaker 1: in his car right after the. Crime the sheriff tells
Speaker 1: reporters That Deputy hardy may have been investigating something, suspicious
Speaker 1: maybe a drug. Deal but If hardy went outside to
Speaker 1: check something behind the, hotel why would he leave his
Speaker 1: two way radio on the table. Inside barry talked to
Speaker 1: detectives just five hours after the. Murder he told them
Speaker 1: about how weird this detail seemed to.
Speaker 15: Him tell me what she thought was unusual about?
Speaker 8: Him not in the wont to tell?
Speaker 2: Me Offer, hardy if he got, out he always put
Speaker 2: the radio in his back, pocket and if he was,
Speaker 2: smoking he never would leave us a. Cigarette, really he
Speaker 2: would always walk around with. It for him to have
Speaker 2: left both the radio and a cigarette was extremely unlike,
Speaker 2: him completely unlike.
Speaker 1: Him hardy had over two decades of experience as a
Speaker 1: law enforcement. Officer leaving his radio behind seems out of,
Speaker 1: character and he also left his cigarette. Burning is it
Speaker 1: possible that he was expecting to go outside, quickly maybe
Speaker 1: to meet, someone and that's why he left them. Behind
Speaker 1: is it possible That hardy knew his? KILLER i tried
Speaker 1: to look into. This there is a file containing records
Speaker 1: of the calls that police received from the special tip
Speaker 1: line set up for the, case AND i found eight
Speaker 1: different tips urging detectives to look Into hardy's personal. Life
Speaker 1: these tips suggest that Someone hardy knew might be connected
Speaker 1: to his. MURDER i Asked Detective Tony richardson about. This
Speaker 1: is there anything that you recall y'all investigating as far
Speaker 1: as that, GOES.
Speaker 3: I don't recall, that recall us investigating. Anything i'll say
Speaker 3: right now THAT i wouldn't. HAVE i, Mean i'm investigating
Speaker 3: the police officers is. Dead he's been shot and. Killed
Speaker 3: it don't matter what he. Did if somebody walked up
Speaker 3: to him and shot him like.
Speaker 1: That my Producer mara presses.
Speaker 9: Him like the first thing to, me IF i hear
Speaker 9: that somebody has, KILLED i would look at their life
Speaker 9: for a motive instead of assuming that it was.
Speaker 8: Random is that not where you would? Start you? KNOW
Speaker 8: i can explain like, This.
Speaker 3: When hardy was, shot he was in, uniform working a
Speaker 3: part time security, job still a serfs.
Speaker 8: Deputy now doing his, job and he was shot and.
Speaker 13: Killed, okay if he he had been.
Speaker 8: At home.
Speaker 3: In his, pajamas.
Speaker 8: Shot and kill.
Speaker 13: In, bed.
Speaker 8: We would have looked at him because that's what you.
Speaker 1: Do Because Deputy hardy was a police officer and was
Speaker 1: killed in, uniform not in his own bed wearing, Pajamas
Speaker 1: Detective richardson says he wouldn't have looked into people that Knew. Hardy,
Speaker 1: Instead richardson repeats the theory That hardy walked up on
Speaker 1: a drug deal that he wasn't supposed to see and
Speaker 1: that's why he was. Killed an insider THAT i talked,
Speaker 1: to a retired bailiff who worked In Jefferson county When
Speaker 1: Deputy hardy was, murdered told me that this theory about
Speaker 1: a police officer interrupting a drug, deal it's like a
Speaker 1: default explanation when detectives don't have any idea what. Happened
Speaker 1: the sheriff first mentioned the scenario hours after the, murder
Speaker 1: and the media ran with. It the only eventual evidence
Speaker 1: to support this theory the always changing statements From Yolanda.
Speaker 1: Chambers detectives not only missed potential promising, leads they also
Speaker 1: ignored facts that could have ruled out To Forrest johnson
Speaker 1: and Ardregas ford as. Suspects some of the people who
Speaker 1: were with To forest And ardregas At tea's place remember
Speaker 1: learning about their arrests from the media coverage the week
Speaker 1: after the.
Speaker 9: Murder WHEN i read it in the, PAPER i saw
Speaker 9: To forest name AND i was, like, well.
Speaker 16: How did he do?
Speaker 8: It we was At tease the you know that.
Speaker 1: Night Can Yarra pickett was At teas at the same
Speaker 1: Time Deputy hardy was. Killed she was out celebrating with
Speaker 1: her Sister, deidre who had just recovered from, surgery and
Speaker 1: To forrest gave her name to, police a female And.
Speaker 14: Galla keenan kend.
Speaker 1: K he told them to find a girl named ken
Speaker 1: that he was hanging out with At, teas but they
Speaker 1: never called or knocked on her.
Speaker 3: DOOR i never went to the police or anything BECAUSE
Speaker 3: i was on the age at the.
Speaker 8: Time, YEAH i mean.
Speaker 2: That how old were?
Speaker 14: YOU i THINK i was.
Speaker 9: Twenty it was ninety five twenty In.
Speaker 1: April, Yes so did they not check id's at the
Speaker 1: club or did y'all have fake? Id's they had a FAKE.
Speaker 1: Id so that made you not want to go to
Speaker 1: police because you didn't want to go worn't supposed to be.
Speaker 8: There, YEAH i didn't want to go.
Speaker 1: There kenyara was scared that she would end up in
Speaker 1: jail if she went to, POLICE.
Speaker 6: I saw on the news That Tfara johnson had been
Speaker 6: picked up for that murder Of Officer. HARDY i, said
Speaker 6: wait a, minute there's no, WAY i, SAID i saw to.
Speaker 1: Fire Stanley chandler is another person who saw To forrest
Speaker 1: And ardregis At tea's place at the Time Deputy hardy was.
Speaker 1: Murdered stanley is A Us marine and he was also
Speaker 1: hesitant to get.
Speaker 5: Involved you know you twenty, FIVE i.
Speaker 6: Just cannot walk and down to count of jails say,
Speaker 6: HEY i saw that guy at the club that night
Speaker 6: at that. Time you, know so no one never contacted,
Speaker 6: me and SO i felt like If farres needed, me
Speaker 6: that someone would reach. OUT i had no knowledge of
Speaker 6: what to.
Speaker 1: Do Are dregas and To forrest told police about multiple
Speaker 1: people they were with At, tease the bartender who remade
Speaker 1: a weak, drink the guy who sold To forest a
Speaker 1: hot dog outside the, club and the girls they chatted
Speaker 1: with in the parking. Lot To forrest also Gave Tony
Speaker 1: richardson the names and phone numbers of friends he remembered
Speaker 1: seeing inside the.
Speaker 14: Club y feed man name Is queasy Were.
Speaker 1: Queasy Including queisi And Mama.
Speaker 3: Catay with one Fname Mama cat.
Speaker 8: And number seven eighty Five forest, right? Okay.
Speaker 5: Uh The forest couldn't give us any names other than
Speaker 5: nicknames or maybe a first.
Speaker 8: Name there was no way that we could find a.
Speaker 5: Witness but we sat and we, waited hoping that you
Speaker 5: know who don't know that The forest is in jail
Speaker 5: for this, crime maybe they'll come. Forward not a single
Speaker 5: one nobody came forward to, say, hey you got the
Speaker 5: wrong guy he was he was at the.
Speaker 1: Club not a single person came forward to say To
Speaker 1: forrest was At tea's place the night of the. Murder
Speaker 1: After Tony richardson tells me, THIS i look through the
Speaker 1: investigative file to double check.
Speaker 14: This Sergeant Tony richardson J Just County sheriff's. OFFICE i
Speaker 14: am on the phone with Bar betta and that SPELLED
Speaker 14: BA R B E t t A, hunt also known
Speaker 14: As Mama. Cat do you remember Where Taforest johnson was
Speaker 14: on the night Of july to eighteenth or the morning
Speaker 14: Of july to, nineteen IS i?
Speaker 11: Too?
Speaker 14: Okay can you tell me?
Speaker 1: Where right there in the folder of recorded police, INTERVIEWS
Speaker 1: i find That Detective richardson did talk with an alibi
Speaker 1: witness he Called mama cat about a month after the. Murder,
Speaker 1: WELL i saw him a teas.
Speaker 14: Place you saw Me tea's. Place, YES i was with
Speaker 14: my Friend Belanique. Sanders Belanique. Sanders, oh, okay all, RIGHT
Speaker 14: i am on the phone With Bello Nique. Sanders felaanick
Speaker 14: is also known As queasy and her home phone numbers seven.
Speaker 1: Eighty on the same, Day Detective richardson talked To, velaanique
Speaker 1: also known As. Queasy she told him she sow To
Speaker 1: forrest And ardregas Inside tease between ELEVEN pm and one. THIRTY. Am,
Speaker 1: okay all.
Speaker 14: Right is there any particular reason that you remember the
Speaker 14: time that they got, there any time that they.
Speaker 3: Left, yes the time that they got, there my friend
Speaker 3: By Bella, hunt her beeper had went, out AND i
Speaker 3: remember her telling me.
Speaker 1: What time it.
Speaker 14: Was, okay what about the time they?
Speaker 1: Left the time they, left my beeper went.
Speaker 14: Out, okay my sister was paiding me to tell me
Speaker 14: to come.
Speaker 10: Home uh, Huh that's WHY i remember the.
Speaker 14: Time, okay all right.
Speaker 1: NOW i Interviewed Tony richardson twenty seven years after this.
Speaker 1: INVESTIGATION i guess it's possible that he just doesn't remember
Speaker 1: speaking With Mama cat And. Quisi so AFTER i found
Speaker 1: these phone, CALLS i went back to ask him about.
Speaker 1: It there were alibi witnesses on the record that told
Speaker 1: Y'ALL i saw them At tea's. Place now whatever went
Speaker 1: into not believing them as not in any files that
Speaker 1: we've been able to.
Speaker 5: Access, well SINCE i don't know.
Speaker 3: Who this witness, WAS i can't remember. THEM i can't
Speaker 3: remember what they. Said, UH i can't really tell you
Speaker 3: IF i believe them or. Not probably, Not probably.
Speaker 1: Not but cops have a lot of discretion as far
Speaker 1: as that goes right in believers believing alibi witnesses or
Speaker 1: not believing alibi.
Speaker 17: Witnesses well you, HAVE i, mean you can believe but disbelieve.
Speaker 17: Anybody but if someone tells you something that either you
Speaker 17: need to check out or check, further or tells you
Speaker 17: something that could possibly have, happened you have an obligation
Speaker 17: to either prove or disprove that.
Speaker 8: You have that.
Speaker 1: Obligation but speaking With Mama cat And, quisi hearing them
Speaker 1: corroborate To forrest And ardregis's, alibi it wasn't enough for
Speaker 1: detectives to question their own theory of the. Crime the
Speaker 1: pressure to put someone on trial for Killing Deputy hardy
Speaker 1: isn't letting. Up but fifteen months after the, crime the
Speaker 1: judge dismisses capital murder charges against two of their main,
Speaker 1: Suspects Omar berry And Quintez. Wilson Yolanda chambers changes her
Speaker 1: story to say they weren't involved in the. Murder they
Speaker 1: also have alibis and police believe, them so detectives let them.
Speaker 1: Go To forrest And ardregas are now the only two
Speaker 1: suspects charged With Deputy hardy's, murder But wright is detective
Speaker 1: zero in On, ardregas and To, forest they run into
Speaker 1: a big. Problem two weeks after she Says Omar berry
Speaker 1: And Quintez wilson have nothing to do with the, Crime
Speaker 1: Yolanda chambers pivots and says under oath that she's made
Speaker 1: up the entire story about the. Murder she recants all
Speaker 1: of her, testimony now saying To forrest And ardregas also
Speaker 1: had nothing.
Speaker 7: To do with the.
Speaker 3: Murder evidence, wise we didn't have virtually, well we had
Speaker 3: virtually no.
Speaker 13: Evidence we had the word of a fifteen year old
Speaker 13: who told, lies a lot of.
Speaker 16: LIES i lie, out lie out.
Speaker 3: Lie we had this table empty wasn't nothing on, it
Speaker 3: and we were still trying to try that, case and
Speaker 3: we were, like, man what we gonna.
Speaker 8: Do how we're gonna win?
Speaker 1: This but investigators have someone, else someone they hadn't initially,
Speaker 1: believed someone who will become the state's new star witness
Speaker 1: against To Forrest.
Speaker 17: Johnson bally us walking that door and stand up on
Speaker 17: this table and say what she.
Speaker 8: Said we got a full. Table now we got all
Speaker 8: the evidence we.
Speaker 1: Need that's next. Time Ear witness is a production Of
Speaker 1: lava For Good podcasts in association With Signal Company Number.
Speaker 1: One executive producers Are Jason, Flomm Jeff, Kempler Kevin, wardis
Speaker 1: and Me Beth. Shelburn the investigative reporting for this series
Speaker 1: was done By me AND maraa. McNamara producers ARE maraa,
Speaker 1: McNamara Hannah bial And Jackie. Pauley Kara kornhaber is our senior.
Speaker 1: Producer Britt spangler is our sound. Designer additional story editing
Speaker 1: From Marie, sutton fact check help From Katherine, newhan and
Speaker 1: special thanks to To Forrest johnson's legal defense. Team you
Speaker 1: can follow the show On, instagram, TikTok, facebook And twitter
Speaker 1: At lava For Good to see behind the scenes content
Speaker 1: from our, Investigation Visit lava For good dot, com slash
Speaker 1: earwitness