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Speaker 1: Well, joining me now is one of the legends of

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Speaker 1: sports journalism who has successfully navigated print, television, digital. He's

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Speaker 1: now at Northwestern University Director of Sports Journalism. There, it's

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Speaker 1: a Jay, a very familiar face if you're a sports fan.

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Speaker 1: Ja donde ja, Nice to see you.

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Speaker 2: Sir, Thanks yct me jout appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: So there's so many directions we could go. I'm like,

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Speaker 1: which is the that I want to get into? Which

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Speaker 1: is this weird? I don't know who's copying? Who is

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Speaker 1: political talk show debate copying sports talk show debate or

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Speaker 1: sports talk show debate Nott being political. But actually, before

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Speaker 1: we get into that, I want to start with this

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Speaker 1: private equity story with the Big Ten and just sort

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Speaker 1: of what this means and whether you know, look, you're

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Speaker 1: you're a practitioner, you're not a part of the board

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Speaker 1: of directors, You're not in these you know, in these conversations.

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Speaker 1: But what does this mean? Where's where are we headed

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Speaker 1: with college sports with this private equity and is it

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Speaker 1: is it actually something that is going to happen?

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Speaker 3: I think so that, for example, the momentum seems to

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Speaker 3: be there for the Big Ten to get this deal done.

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Speaker 3: They're talking about a two billion dollars infusion of cash

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Speaker 3: led primarily from what I've read from the California Teacher's

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Speaker 3: pension would be the primary investor, which.

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Speaker 1: Is a fascinating It was it to there's like, we're

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Speaker 1: not private equity. It's not a hedge fund, it's a

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Speaker 1: pension fund.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, which actually made a big difference to me when

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Speaker 3: they said, hey, it's not a private equity hedge fund.

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Speaker 3: You know, cowpers which I think is the name of

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Speaker 3: the of the fund, seems.

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Speaker 2: A little more legitimate or less ruthless.

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Speaker 3: Right, I, as a journalist or former journalists, kind of

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Speaker 3: shiver when I hear hedge fund of private equity because

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Speaker 3: we've seen it ruin newspaper after newspaper. Right when they

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Speaker 3: come in, they they strip things down to the bare bones,

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Speaker 3: and then you know, see what they can extract from

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Speaker 3: the carcass.

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Speaker 2: So at my first instinct was to.

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Speaker 3: Be very aware when I heard they were looking for

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Speaker 3: a private investment, but A when I heard the source

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Speaker 3: of the funds, but B the fact that it would

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Speaker 3: extend the current Big Ten arrangement for another two decades.

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Speaker 3: From a selfish standpoint, I was glad to hear it

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Speaker 3: because as a Northwestern alumni and faculty member, I live

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Speaker 3: in fear of the Big Ten and the SEC breaking

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Speaker 3: off and away from the NC double a to former

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Speaker 3: super conference with the best of the best, right, because

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Speaker 3: Northwestern would not be a part of that. You know,

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Speaker 3: when it comes and it feels inevitable, like to the best,

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Speaker 3: I do think it's inevitable, Chuck, But I think this

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Speaker 3: would delay it. And this is delayzy inevitable. I'm actually

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Speaker 3: in favor because part of the new super league.

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Speaker 1: Right now, Watching USC and Michigan kill it two of

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Speaker 1: the teams that might be part of a super league,

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Speaker 1: you know, right, tells you something. And certainly as an

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Speaker 1: acc guy myself, I've watched everybody sue each other over

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Speaker 1: this granted rights business and disputes over revenue sharing. But

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Speaker 1: let me dovetail this into sports journalism. How much of

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Speaker 1: the business of sports was a part of your beat

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Speaker 1: in your head in the nineties versus how much of

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Speaker 1: it now you have? How much more knowledge you have

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Speaker 1: to have to be a day to day sports reporter

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Speaker 1: on the sort of the business side of you know, Well,

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Speaker 1: if you don't understand the second apron, you don't understand

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Speaker 1: free agency in the NBA, right, And I have to

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Speaker 1: say it's a real differentiator now in sports reporters.

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Speaker 3: No, absolutely, and but there's a difference between you know,

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Speaker 3: the the second apron and that talk is collective bargaining

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Speaker 3: and salary cap and that hasn't changed since when I

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Speaker 3: first started. I remember when I first started covering the

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Speaker 3: Chicago Bulls in nineteen ninety four, I met with their

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Speaker 3: salary cap expert who explained the salary cap to me.

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Speaker 3: Now that was many iterations of the salary cap would

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Speaker 3: go very different rules now, but you did have to

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Speaker 3: have an understanding of that. You know how things worked

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Speaker 3: in the NBA, but now you do have to have

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Speaker 3: an understanding of private equity and hedge funds and things.

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Speaker 2: Like that and how the markets move and react.

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Speaker 3: So the greatest example was this year, this past school year,

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Speaker 3: I started teaching a class covering the business and sports,

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Speaker 3: and it was far from my expertise. I had to

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Speaker 3: bring in a lot of experts in the fields to

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Speaker 3: talk about it. But we did start with the cbas

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Speaker 3: the collective bargaining agreements, right, Because if you're going to

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Speaker 3: cover a professional sport, you need to understand the collective

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Speaker 3: bardin agreement and what goes into negotiating that collective bargaining agreement.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: So I represented a former representative of of the NFL

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Speaker 3: Players Union. I've had other lawyers come I've had a

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Speaker 3: lawyer come in to explain the current name image likeness

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Speaker 3: in college sports. We've had people talk about kind of

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Speaker 3: the stadium game, right, and public funding for stadiums. That's

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Speaker 3: something you need to understand, not just business, but the

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Speaker 3: politics of stadium funding. And then some of the more

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Speaker 3: fun things like collectibles or even sneakers, right, and shoe contracts,

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Speaker 3: and the influences that you companies have both in college

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Speaker 3: and professional sports.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: So all these things that weren't necessarily a part. You know,

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Speaker 3: the CBA part that hasn't changed. You need to know

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Speaker 3: the CBA. But aside from that, there's whole world from

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Speaker 3: private equity all the way to the collectibles market.

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Speaker 1: One of the growth academic areas that essentially students want

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Speaker 1: to major in. And this has been a I've noticed

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Speaker 1: it in journalism. You're the director of sports journalism. There

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have been a director of sports journalism at Northwestern

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Speaker 1: thirty years ago. Correct, absolutely not right, this is the

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Speaker 1: growth area of journalism schools when I've been at when

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Speaker 1: I go to various journalism schools, and we talk about

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Speaker 1: because sort of, you know, those getting into non sports

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Speaker 1: journalism are being told by their parents this isn't a

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Speaker 1: place to get earn a living, right, There's not great

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Speaker 1: jobs out there, but the one place where parents believe

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Speaker 1: you can make a living is in sports journalism, even

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Speaker 1: if it's not in So what do you make of

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Speaker 1: that and how much is that transforming Midel?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, I joked when at the time I got

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Speaker 3: this job. You know, none of the things I was doing,

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Speaker 3: including this job, existed when I was in school. And

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Speaker 3: you know that included appearing on ESPN on Around the Horn,

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Speaker 3: that included doing podcasts, that included writing for ESPN dot

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Speaker 3: com and my role as director of Sports Journalism. So

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Speaker 3: it's a completely different landscape than I was in school

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Speaker 3: at four. You know, one of the reasons those was

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Speaker 3: created was this has been you know, a great recruiting device,

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Speaker 3: particularly for response to demand.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, both the responses demand and anticipation of you know

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Speaker 3: what would be appealing in this modern era to get

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Speaker 3: people to want to go to graduate journalism program, and

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Speaker 3: you know it, it's gone really well, including this year

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Speaker 3: we have I think the number is thirty one of

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Speaker 3: about one hundred and twenty of the graduate students are

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Speaker 3: are in the Sports Specialization program, and it's a very

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Speaker 3: you know, this is the highest number we've had so

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Speaker 3: in it. You know, I won't say the journalism field

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Speaker 3: has gotten better over the past decade, you know, I

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Speaker 3: think we can be honest and say these have This

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Speaker 3: hasn't been the best decade for journalism and media, but

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Speaker 3: this has actually increased.

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Speaker 2: What I am saying.

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Speaker 3: Where I think the opportunities are are in live sports production.

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Speaker 3: So it doesn't necessarily mean that things are great for

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Speaker 3: sports media overall. You know, the fact that Sports Illustrated

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Speaker 3: doesn't exist as we knew it, you know when you

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Speaker 3: and I were growing up, that's not good.

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Speaker 1: And that has been a destination, right, twenty year old

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Speaker 1: Ja Donde, what do you man? I hope to be

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Speaker 1: writing for Sports Illustrated. Like I would have said that

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Speaker 1: about that great, I'd have said that about Newsweek as

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Speaker 1: a political journalist in the early nineties, that would have

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Speaker 1: felt like a destination. Boy, if you're writing for Newsweek now,

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Speaker 1: you're hoping to get paid.

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Speaker 3: What's crazy, though, was even you know, as far back

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Speaker 3: as two thousand and seven when I took about from

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Speaker 3: the LA Times and I got a call from Sports Illustrated.

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Speaker 3: I wouldn't say I got a job offer from Sports Illustrated,

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Speaker 3: but I did. You know, they did call and express

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Speaker 3: some interest. And by that time, you know, ESPN was

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Speaker 3: a much better option because you could write, you could

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Speaker 3: be on TV radio, you know, they just it was

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Speaker 3: just a much better vertical than Sports Illustrated. And I

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Speaker 3: remember thinking at the time, I can't believe I would

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Speaker 3: ever have a call from Sports Illustrated and say thanks,

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Speaker 3: but no thanks.

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Speaker 2: And that's pretty much what happened then.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, the destination, I think if you're a writer

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Speaker 3: right now, the Athletic feels like the place where you'd

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Speaker 3: want to be and you want to go. And it's

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Speaker 3: funny because it's only been around what ten fifteen years

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Speaker 3: at that, yeah, ten years. I don't think that was

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Speaker 3: just because yeah, but you know, if you're going up,

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Speaker 3: I mean they've they've invested. And that's why I tell

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Speaker 3: all my students, you better subscribe to the Athletic because

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Speaker 3: if that goes away, that's it. So, you know, if

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Speaker 3: you have a dream, if you want to be a

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Speaker 3: sports writer, you need to support this potential destination because

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Speaker 3: if and when that goes, that's really the end of

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Speaker 3: it for sports writing, is there.

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Speaker 1: I mean, look, you know, the downfall of sports writing

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Speaker 1: is the same thing as the downfall of political journalism.

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Speaker 1: We wiped out local right, and yet the diversity of

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Speaker 1: sports writing was because of local right. What made Around

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Speaker 1: the Horn in its first iteration awesome was you got

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Speaker 1: the sports writers from these great sports sections the Boston Globe.

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Speaker 2: We literally used to come to you from the newsrooms. Yes,

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Speaker 2: you know of our newspapers.

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Speaker 1: No, it's wait, gave it.

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Speaker 2: It gave it.

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Speaker 1: Something extra, you know, like it was right out of

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Speaker 1: the you know, back when being called an inkstained wretch

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Speaker 1: was a was a compliment, right, And I you know, look,

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to revitalize local news. I think that when

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Speaker 1: you look at our political our information ecosystem. The reason why,

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Speaker 1: like the core of trust is developed locally, and once

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Speaker 1: you loose, once that's gone, everything else disappears. Right. If

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Speaker 1: you don't have trust in local government, you're not gonna

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Speaker 1: trust in national government. If you don't have any local media,

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Speaker 1: you're not gonna trust national media. I actually think sports

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Speaker 1: is the way to rebuild local media. I think with

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Speaker 1: the rise of interest in youth sports, gender, diversity of

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Speaker 1: youth sports and how and the fact that it's a

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Speaker 1: red America and blue America both want to see their

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Speaker 1: kids succeed in youth sports. I see it as a

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Speaker 1: place to just sort of rebuild community, and then from

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Speaker 1: there you could start to then add verticals into your

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Speaker 1: local news environment that over time, you know, as I say,

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Speaker 1: if you're the place they go to watch their kids play,

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Speaker 1: eventually they'll trust you when you tell them the city

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Speaker 1: councilman's corrupt.

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Speaker 3: I think that's a noble option. The problem is there

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Speaker 3: have been so many alternative which.

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Speaker 1: Is always code for like it may not work.

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Speaker 3: In part because, for example, you know, I don't have kids,

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Speaker 3: but my friends with kids, like there's apps where you know,

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Speaker 3: I've been with my friends when they're following you know,

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Speaker 3: their son's littally trust me.

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Speaker 1: There's five apps I got like I just became an

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Speaker 1: empty nester, so I just graduated from from the youth.

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Speaker 2: Memory on your phones, right, correct, I.

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Speaker 1: Mean, And that is part of like, I actually think

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Speaker 1: if you can, you know right now the youth sports,

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Speaker 1: which is very siloed, and so I think the real

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Speaker 1: opportunity is figuring out how to look at it instead

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Speaker 1: of by sport, by community. But that is where the

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Speaker 1: I think the opportunity exists.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think, you know, as recently again as fifteen

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Speaker 3: years ago. So I think you're right in terms of

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Speaker 3: there was an opportunity to focus on local sports and

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Speaker 3: build up from that, and that was the the initial

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Speaker 3: game plan for the athletic, was it, they know, And I.

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Speaker 1: Hate that they're going away from that. Yes, that's the

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Speaker 1: New York timesification of the athletic right exactly.

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Speaker 3: But you know, again, I was happy to see the

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Speaker 3: New York Times by the athletic because at least the

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Speaker 3: New York Times is in the journalism business, you know,

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Speaker 3: and so there were you know, among the consequences was

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Speaker 3: the dissolution of the New York Times owned sports staff, right,

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Speaker 3: So that wasn't good. But overall, I think it's healthy

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Speaker 3: to have the New York Times own in the athletic.

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Speaker 3: But the reason the athletic became of interest to the

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Speaker 3: New York Times is the New York Times seasons as

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Speaker 3: a national outlet like you could talk about the de

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Speaker 3: client of the New York Times local coverage, right, Do

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Speaker 3: they cover City Hall like other people do?

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Speaker 2: You know?

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Speaker 3: Because it's all about scale, and the Athletic went from

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Speaker 3: really trying to own all, you know, be a collection

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Speaker 3: a network of local markets to instead being a national

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Speaker 3: sports news outlet, and so that's changed.

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Speaker 2: So, you know, I think the problem is, you know,

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Speaker 2: the type.

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Speaker 3: Of local coverage that you're proposing, I'm not sure anyone

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Speaker 3: with enough but deep enough pockets would be interested in

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Speaker 3: that because it doesn't scale.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting, you know, how would you describe

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Speaker 1: the local sports ecosystem now for information? Is it driven

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Speaker 1: primarily by podcasters? Is it driven by local X sports

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Speaker 1: radio guys who've sort of done their own YouTube?

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Speaker 2: Is it block?

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Speaker 1: I know in college sports probably I just want to

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Speaker 1: follow the University of Miami. The Miami Herald still does

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Speaker 1: a pretty good job of it. They know that. Frankly,

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Speaker 1: the only reason I pay for the Miami Herald is

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Speaker 1: for their University of Miami football coverge so and you

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Speaker 1: can tell with their sports they still have a semi

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Speaker 1: vibrant It used to be a great sports page. I

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Speaker 1: think it's it's like the Washington Post. They still want

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Speaker 1: to there's still a remnant of what it used to

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Speaker 1: be and they want to keep that. They don't want

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Speaker 1: to lose it. But I get just as much from

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Speaker 1: these quasi. I don't know what to describe them. On

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Speaker 1: three rivals, you know that world what is? How would

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Speaker 1: you describe the local? You know, if you're a white

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Speaker 1: Sox fan, where do you get your information?

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Speaker 3: Well, the problem is it used to be that's where

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Speaker 3: you you would go to find out what's going on

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Speaker 3: with the team, right that they're going to re sign

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Speaker 3: this player, this player is going to get traded if

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Speaker 3: the manager is going to get fired. But that's been

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Speaker 3: nationalized and upscale too. So if you think about the

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Speaker 3: major sports, right the breaking stories there, aids, the injuries,

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Speaker 3: everything you know in the NBA, it's going to come

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Speaker 3: from Shams Farania, like Adrian Wochnowski, you know who kind

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Speaker 3: of held that corner before.

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Speaker 1: The Houston Beat reporters going to get scooped by shams

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Speaker 1: when it comes to Kevin.

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Speaker 3: Durant news right, just not exactly, or or you know

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Speaker 3: an Adam Schefter covering the NFL, et cetera. Jeff Passon

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Speaker 3: does a great job in Major League Baseball, you know,

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Speaker 3: Ken Rosenthal, those guys. So the problem is it's so

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Speaker 3: much more efficient for the teams to leave something to

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Speaker 3: those people and you get it out everywhere, right, rather

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Speaker 3: than you know, if you leak it out to your

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Speaker 3: local news outlet, but it'll get picked up but not

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Speaker 3: as past.

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Speaker 2: But here's the.

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Speaker 1: Weird flaw in this. If your team stinks for a

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Speaker 1: period of time, Like I say this, I grew up

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Speaker 1: all my mom's family are white Sox fans. They're Southsiders,

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Speaker 1: ex Southsiders, right, So right, it's been a tough you know,

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Speaker 1: it's been a tough century, right, you know, to be

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Speaker 1: a white Sox fan, they got the one bright light No.

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Speaker 2: Five.

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Speaker 1: But if you're a bad team, the national reporters don't

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Speaker 1: cover you, right, right, So then there's this black hole. Frankly,

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Speaker 1: if you're a if you're a have not team, right,

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Speaker 1: Cincinnati Reds, Chicago White Sox, uh, Colorado Rockies? Your whole

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Speaker 1: where do you get your info? If your local news

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Speaker 1: environment is just not very you know, supportive of a

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Speaker 1: of a sports section.

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Speaker 3: We've seen some things pop up, like, uh, I think

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Speaker 3: it's starting in Denver, that d n BR and and

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Speaker 3: uh the Chicago version, I think it's HGO. So look

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Speaker 3: websites and podcasts that are focused on the team to

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Speaker 3: local sports or what. Yeah, yeah, they're just focused on

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Speaker 3: that city sports. But what you don't get is necessarily

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Speaker 3: that that breaking news, right because they're not necessarily at

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Speaker 3: the ballpark covering the teams. They're you know, they're not

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Speaker 3: in the arena. You know, they're not cultivating the sources.

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Speaker 3: So you can get plenty of discussion about the teams

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Speaker 3: and if you're you know, if you want to have

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Speaker 3: a debate about who should you know, what the rotation

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Speaker 3: should look like, right, or who should be the closer?

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Speaker 3: And should they bring this guy up from from Triple A?

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Speaker 3: You can get that discussion and debate, and there's forms

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Speaker 3: for that and you can listen in and you can participate.

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Speaker 3: But where's the news going to come from? And Chuck,

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Speaker 3: what's the responsibility of journalists and holding people accountable?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 3: So who can hold people to account? Who can put

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Speaker 3: pressure on teams? You know, why have the White Sox

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Speaker 3: been allowed to be this bad for this long?

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Speaker 2: Right? In part because they're not.

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Speaker 1: Like justice local media putting the pressures.

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Speaker 3: They don't always have beat writers, like the Tribune doesn't

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Speaker 3: cover the White Sox full time as a beat. Right,

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Speaker 3: So when that happens, when no one's you don't have

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Speaker 3: a watch dog of science, that's how you get this

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Speaker 3: type of thing, and then you don't hear the the

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Speaker 3: White Sox pop up once again. You know when they're

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Speaker 3: looking at the fund the stadium.

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Speaker 1: Right, there's a reason results matter more than promises, just

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Speaker 1: like there's a reason Morgan and Morgan is America's largest

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Speaker 1: injury law firm. For the last thirty five years, they've

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Speaker 1: recovered twenty five billion dollars for more than half a

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Speaker 1: million clients. It includes cases where insurance companies offered next

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Speaker 1: to nothing, just hoping to get away with paying as

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Speaker 1: little as possible. Morgan and Morgan fought back ended up

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Speaker 1: winning millions. In fact, in Pennsylvania, one client was awarded

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Speaker 1: twenty six million dollars, which was a staggering forty times

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Speaker 1: the amount that the insurance company originally offered. That original

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Speaker 1: offer six hundred and fifty thousand dollars twenty six million,

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Speaker 1: six hundred and fifty thousand dollars, so with more than

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Speaker 1: one thousand lawyers across the country. They know how to

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Speaker 1: deliver for everyday people. If you're injured, you need a lawyer,

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Speaker 1: you need somebody to get your back. Check out for

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Speaker 1: Thepeople dot Com, Slash podcast, or dial Pound Law Pound

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Speaker 1: five to two nine law on your cell phone. And

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Speaker 1: remember all law firms are not the same. So check

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Speaker 1: out Morgan and Morgan. Their fee is free unless they win.

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Speaker 1: That gets to something that I think is very challenging

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Speaker 1: in the journalism field. And I'll give you an expression

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Speaker 1: that is frowned upon in the political world, but I

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Speaker 1: would argue is a necessity in the sports world, and

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Speaker 1: that is quote unquote access journalism. I think if you're

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Speaker 1: a beat writer, you have to have access to the ballpark,

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Speaker 1: you have to have access to the team headquarters. And

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Speaker 1: these are private enterprises. They can choose to say, Jay.

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Speaker 2: You're a jerk.

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Speaker 1: I don't like you. You're out not credentialing you, and

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Speaker 1: you're like, you know, there's no there's no Freedom of

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Speaker 1: Information Act, right, just sort of like I've always said,

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Speaker 1: you know, the Pentagon reporters got kicked out. There's going

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Speaker 1: to be ways to force the publication of certain information.

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Speaker 1: And it's not ideal. And you know, I think you

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Speaker 1: can do seventy five percent of reporting on politics remotely

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Speaker 1: the difference makers at twenty five percent it being their matters.

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Speaker 1: I believe that was sports too. But it's a fine

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Speaker 1: line on access journal you talk about accountability. If Dan

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Speaker 1: Schneider kicked the Washington Post out of out of right,

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Speaker 1: the team facilities wouldn't let them, wouldn't let them in,

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Speaker 1: and then therefore, over time, Washington fans stopped going to

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Speaker 1: the Post for information because they didn't have it. How

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Speaker 1: do you view that line? You're now, you're you're teaching

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Speaker 1: these young journalists. Where's your head on this? Because I

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Speaker 1: think it's an extra challenge that sports journalists have that frankly,

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Speaker 1: we political journalists don't.

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Speaker 3: And it's gotten tougher in part because it used to

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Speaker 3: be they would absorb, you know, the team would have

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Speaker 3: to absorb whatever you said about them, good or bad.

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Speaker 2: Because they needed you. Right, if you were a.

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Speaker 3: Fan, something as basic as what time is the game

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Speaker 3: tonight and you know what TV station is it on,

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Speaker 3: you would have to go to the newspaper to get

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Speaker 3: that basic information. Right that the newspapers were vital if

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Speaker 3: you were a team getting any type of information out

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Speaker 3: about your franchise, you needed the newspaper, right, and so

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Speaker 3: you couldn't afford to shut them out.

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Speaker 2: Now you can't afford to shut them out. Right.

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Speaker 3: You can have your own stories on your website and

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Speaker 3: through your social media feeds, so you don't need the

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Speaker 3: newspapers or the local media to tell the stories and

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Speaker 3: to get the word out about your team. So we

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Speaker 3: have seen a good example was Leon Sanders at Colorado

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Speaker 3: basically banning a columnist that he didn't like, right for

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Speaker 3: the opinions that that columnist had. So it has become

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Speaker 3: a lot easier because you don't need them. You say,

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Speaker 3: have to absorb whatever people had to say about you

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Speaker 3: because you needed them to say something about you.

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Speaker 2: Now that they don't, you know, we've.

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Speaker 3: Seen it's still there's still kind of some legacy where

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Speaker 3: you know, the leagues will try to enforce some rules.

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Speaker 2: You know, you have to have certain access.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's there's seems pretty good about it, right yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: you know Baseball Riders Association, you know, the Pro Basketball

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Speaker 3: Riders NFL, right, right, So you've got advocate groups that

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Speaker 3: will try to fight to protect access for people, but

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Speaker 3: also just because they can credential you. Now, it doesn't

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Speaker 3: mean you're going to see players in the locker room

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Speaker 3: or the clubhouse.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: The you know started in the nineties, in the two thousands,

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Speaker 3: the stadiums were designed. There's so many behind the scenes

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Speaker 3: places that you know, no matter how long the locker

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Speaker 3: room is open before the game, you might never see

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Speaker 3: a guy because he's back in the trainer's room, which

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Speaker 3: is off limits. So they've got a players lounge that's

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Speaker 3: off limits. So even with the access, that doesn't mean

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Speaker 3: you can talk to them. One thing I am glad

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Speaker 3: about is that we I thought the pandemic was going

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Speaker 3: to be an opportunity for these leagues to really collect

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Speaker 3: the media.

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Speaker 2: For safety protocols.

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Speaker 3: You know, no one was allowed in the locker room

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Speaker 3: or on the field before the game, and to the

438
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:09,160
Speaker 3: league's credit, they basically restored the pre pandemic access once

439
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:10,640
Speaker 3: the pandemic was well, I.

440
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:12,879
Speaker 1: Tell you, in the world of political I mean, my

441
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,119
Speaker 1: fear at the time was I'm never going to get

442
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:19,399
Speaker 1: an on set guest. Ever again, the minute everybody figured

443
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 1: out and that has been harder for all of the

444
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 1: Sunday shows. You can still get it, but you've got

445
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,680
Speaker 1: to compromise all sorts of principles. You've got to pre

446
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:30,600
Speaker 1: tape it, or you've got to do it on their schedule,

447
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,160
Speaker 1: or you don't have any of the sort of well,

448
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:34,480
Speaker 1: look this is when we tape. If you want to

449
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 1: be on, you got to come now, right, Which maybe

450
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:38,639
Speaker 1: in the eighties or nineties you could have done a

451
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 1: flex like that. You don't get the flex like that anymore.

452
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:43,000
Speaker 2: So.

453
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:47,400
Speaker 3: One difference, huge difference between political coverage and sports coverage

454
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 3: is that in sports we just have these hard to find,

455
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:57,400
Speaker 3: undeniable truths. This team won, this team loss. The quarterback

456
00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,440
Speaker 3: threw three touchdowns, or he threw three interceptions, or here's

457
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 3: the data to back up your's one thing where there's

458
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 3: been this divergence. You know, you talked earlier about the similarities,

459
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,199
Speaker 3: but one of the main divergences is sports is one

460
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 3: of the last place where we're not debating the actual facts.

461
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,680
Speaker 3: We can have debate about whether it's good or bad.

462
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 3: You know, we can debate whether it showtale Otani put

463
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:26,360
Speaker 3: on the greatest postseason performance in playoff history. We can

464
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,360
Speaker 3: debate that, right, but we're not debating the fact that

465
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 3: he pitched six sutout innings and hit three home runs

466
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:33,480
Speaker 3: and struck out ten and the Dodgers won.

467
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 2: Right.

468
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:41,440
Speaker 3: So in politics, you know who's responsible for the government shutdown?

469
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 2: Right? Or you know if and when more subjective, which

470
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 2: side one? Right? You know we're going to have a debate.

471
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 2: Oh who this side one or this side one? Right?

472
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:54,199
Speaker 3: The beauty of sports is that it's clear cut and defined,

473
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,400
Speaker 3: and we have winners and louke losers and the outcome

474
00:24:57,880 --> 00:24:59,119
Speaker 3: is not subject to debate.

475
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:05,680
Speaker 1: Well, that's a nice transition to the state of sports talk, right,

476
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 1: which is Look, as a fan, I love it in

477
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 1: some ways, but it has gotten to the point of

478
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 1: where it feels formulaic and like the WWE, right, meaning

479
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 1: I don't know if the takes are real or if

480
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 1: the takes are designed to get traffic. And look, I

481
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:30,919
Speaker 1: feel that way about cable television politics right now. The

482
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 1: one thing ESPN, Fox Sports One, MSNBC, CNN, Fox News

483
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 1: all have in common is that they have shrinking platforms. Right,

484
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 1: So they're fighting over a shrinking a shrinking base of

485
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 1: potential viewers. Well, how do you assess the evolution of

486
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:55,399
Speaker 1: sports talk and what it was sports reporters?

487
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 2: Right?

488
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,920
Speaker 1: Some people might say the old Beat the Press right

489
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:01,399
Speaker 1: for sports, which is the way I always viewed it.

490
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:03,920
Speaker 1: In fact, as a consumer, I used to watch Beat

491
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,679
Speaker 1: the Press. Sports Reporters was right after that. I watched

492
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 1: eleven thirty this week. I used to literally watch all

493
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 1: three as my Sunday routine. And what we have today

494
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 1: with Steven A or Pat McAfee or my friend Colin Coward, Like,

495
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to single because I know

496
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 1: everybody says, well, it's Steven A, it's it's there's four

497
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 1: or five guys that are in this space.

498
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:29,880
Speaker 2: What do you think?

499
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 1: What do you make of the evolution of it?

500
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,880
Speaker 3: So I agree that the early models of the sports reporters,

501
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 3: for example, was more based on the political debate shows

502
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,880
Speaker 3: like a Crossfire or something like that. Right, But keep

503
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 3: in mind that you know the modern version, the twenty

504
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,640
Speaker 3: first century version that's kind of led.

505
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:50,440
Speaker 2: The way for everything, which was part of the interruption.

506
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 3: The template for that was Siskel and Ebert, right to

507
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,719
Speaker 3: movie critics who would debate and argue.

508
00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:01,360
Speaker 2: And it's funny because they now I.

509
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 1: Want to think of Tony and Micah Siskel and Ebert

510
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 1: one hundred percent, I'm I'm I might throw that at

511
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 1: Tony when I do.

512
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 3: That was the model, you know. You know Mark Mark

513
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,439
Speaker 3: Shapiro who basically came up with the concept for it.

514
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,119
Speaker 3: He was running ESPN at the time and he wanted

515
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:18,959
Speaker 3: a sports version of cisilin Eber. So, yeah, they they

516
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 3: they will take that as a compliment obviously.

517
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 2: And then the producer Ic ride home of.

518
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,880
Speaker 3: The show came from Chicago, so he was influenced both

519
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:29,360
Speaker 3: by Ciskel and Ebert who were to Chicago based, uh,

520
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,879
Speaker 3: movie critics, and also the original the sports writers on TV,

521
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 3: which was the first one of those, which was Chuck.

522
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:38,119
Speaker 2: Again. We talked local and national.

523
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 3: That was a local thing, but they did talk about

524
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:42,439
Speaker 3: a lot of national issues.

525
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 2: But it was based here in Chicago.

526
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 1: And Corneizer got their start on local Channel four here

527
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 1: in d C.

528
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, in Washington. Yeah, so.

529
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:58,920
Speaker 3: You know that the other thing is is there that

530
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 3: kind of from local to national you know, and it's

531
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,199
Speaker 3: gonna be harder and harder to find, I think, you know,

532
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,359
Speaker 3: people getting a start locally and then and then going

533
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,160
Speaker 3: up to the bigger stage. But so you went from

534
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 3: a political model to this kind of movie model, which

535
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 3: was more contentious. Uh, you know, Cisco Neeba, we're a

536
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 3: lot more contentious. But the interesting thing was that, again,

537
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,360
Speaker 3: it wasn't a winnable argument. Right, you like the movie,

538
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:28,640
Speaker 3: I don't like the movie. Neither one of us is,

539
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 3: you know, objectively right, Right, it's a matter of taste.

540
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 3: Around the Horn, which was descended from party interruption, but

541
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 3: it was based on the premise that you could win

542
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 3: an argument, which was patently absurd.

543
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:42,959
Speaker 2: Right.

544
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 3: The whole premise around the Horn that there's points and

545
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 3: that you can score more points than someone else on

546
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 3: this argument is absurd because there is no winning the

547
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 3: argument of who's the greatest player in right?

548
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 2: There is no right answer.

549
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 3: So it was it was it was all a joke

550
00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 3: in a way, right, that we're gonna Well.

551
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 1: That's what I think about around the Horn is that

552
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 1: I felt like everybody's kind of in on the show.

553
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, well you'd be surprised, you'd be surprised. What was

554
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 3: funny to me was, you know, I didn't really care

555
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 3: if I won or I lost.

556
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 2: I got paid the same either way.

557
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 3: In fact, it used to be you could get eliminated

558
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 3: with two rounds ago. Now it's you could eliminate with

559
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 3: one round to go. But you get paid the same.

560
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 3: So in some ways you're better off losing early because

561
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 3: you're getting more money for less work, or you're getting

562
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 3: the same way.

563
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 2: Save money for us work. Yeah, but I you know,

564
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 2: it didn't bother me.

565
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 3: I could very easily lose and then be out the

566
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 3: door and be on my way for the rest of

567
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 3: the day. Sometimes I request to be eliminated early because

568
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 3: I might have a flight or I had to go

569
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 3: cover practice or something, so I saiduld get me out

570
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 3: here early.

571
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: Or I don't I don't have a good rant like

572
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 1: right there, I got do, I got something to shill,

573
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 1: right like, I don't have anything to say this week.

574
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 3: Don't make me win, Yeah, eliminate me. But what I

575
00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 3: found was that people would come up and the peace.

576
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 3: People were invested in whether or not you win.

577
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 2: The kid who watch the show.

578
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: Are these people that think wrestling is real?

579
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 3: I think so wrestling, what I mean, most wrestling outdoes

580
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:15,719
Speaker 3: most sporting events, right, So there's a huge audience for that.

581
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 3: For that fake competition, I mean around the Horn was

582
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 3: fake competition that it's no no secret, no trade secret.

583
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 2: I'm getting out there.

584
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 3: You know, sometimes it would be predetermined. Very often it

585
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 3: wasn't right. It could be at the whims of the host.

586
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 3: But there was sometimes where some you know, maybe somebody

587
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 3: had a guess that they wanted to bring in at

588
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 3: the end, or it was their one thousand episodes. It'll

589
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 3: be nice to give them a victory on that episode

590
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 3: or something like that. Right, So sometimes it was predetermined.

591
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 3: So yes, you know, if you bet on it, you know, hey,

592
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 3: that was it. But people cared somewhat, so it made

593
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 3: me start to care who won or lost.

594
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 1: That's interesting.

595
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 3: People get invested whether or not it's actual real competition.

596
00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 1: Well, I want to finish this so we don't have

597
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 1: it anymore. What does that say that we're going more

598
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 1: to the singular influencer model, because that was a collective

599
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 1: influencer model, right, this is now it's McAfee and he

600
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 1: has a cast of characters, or it's stephen A. He's

601
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 1: got his cast, even to a much lesser extent. I'd

602
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 1: say Greenberg, you know, or or that, But I guess

603
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 1: we have a new iteration. How would you describe it?

604
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 3: So it's not that you know, the paying all the

605
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 3: all the people, all the panelists was the problem, right,

606
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:34,719
Speaker 3: because you could add up what we all made, and

607
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 3: it wasn't what stephen A made. It was the fact

608
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 3: that from the corporate side, they're looking at the cost

609
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 3: of production. So the thing about McAfee or stephen A

610
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 3: is those guys can eat up a couple hours each

611
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 3: right with pro with good viewership, with the same production

612
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 3: Whereas you know, it was inefficient to have Around the

613
00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 3: Horn for a half hour, PTI for a half hour,

614
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 3: even though it was under the same production umbrella, you

615
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 3: still had two different groups of producers, right, you know,

616
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 3: the studio time, satellite time, you know all those things.

617
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 3: So the reason why that model is winning the cow

618
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 3: herd is that if you can have one person that

619
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 3: can eat up two hours with one production group, that's

620
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 3: what they're gonna that's what they're going to go for.

621
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 3: And you know, the ultimate reason people say, well, why

622
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 3: did Round Horn go away? We're going to see the

623
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 3: end of the studio show? Because as these as these

624
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 3: you know, the espns and the Foxes go from TV

625
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 3: stations where you have to fill up twenty four hours

626
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 3: to streaming where it's on demand. You know, the only

627
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 3: reason Around the Horn and PTI existed in the first

628
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 3: place was because you needed something on the air before

629
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 3: the game started. You know, during the day when there's

630
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 3: no games, you need something to fill that up. So

631
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 3: now they're just going to look for the things. You know,

632
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 3: can we get you know, can we go from steven

633
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 3: A to McAfee And there's four hours with two people

634
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 3: and two production groups, and so you know they'll stay when.

635
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: They don't have to own the show. Right, they're going

636
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 1: to license.

637
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 2: I think this.

638
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 1: I think this is where you know, it's funny. At

639
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 1: first you could argue Sports Talk was copying politics. Now

640
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: I kind of think political news is going to copy

641
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 1: sports and you're going to see I fully expect the

642
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 1: pod that they you know, the new version of MSNBC.

643
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 1: They're going to call it ms now their next couple

644
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 1: of hosts baby.

645
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 2: Right.

646
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 1: They may license, they may they may say, hey, I

647
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 1: mean look, I'm part of a group right now for

648
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 1: something called Newsphere, where everybody owns their own content, but

649
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 1: everybody's going to share the revenue of the subscription. You know,

650
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 1: So you may license a show so that hey, your

651
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 1: linear television exclusive home for Pat McAfee. But he's going

652
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 1: to have his you know, own his own studio over here,

653
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 1: and he's going to own his production over here, and

654
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 1: he's going to sell this and monetize this and monetize that,

655
00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 1: and in some ways the legacy media companies, Hey, that's

656
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: ten less people they're paying health care for exactly.

657
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 2: And then we're going to start to see the rebundling. Right,

658
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:08,840
Speaker 2: who is that? There's two streamers that just announced that

659
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 2: they were going to partner.

660
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:14,280
Speaker 1: Netflix and Spotify, right, yeah, right, where Spotify's licensing content

661
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 1: to Netflix? And what is this really about? Not allowing

662
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 1: those shows to show up on YouTube? So suddenly Netflix,

663
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 1: Well what's interesting is who's the king of the hill

664
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 1: right now? Right, it's essentially Netflix and YouTube and they're

665
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:35,760
Speaker 1: the two giants, right, everybody else is much less.

666
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 2: Right.

667
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 1: If you want to pitch a new TV show, Netflix

668
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:41,359
Speaker 1: is where you want to be first. That's number one.

669
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 1: When you get rejected there, then you start to move

670
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 1: out to everybody else, and then yeah, go ahead.

671
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,239
Speaker 2: And Netflix is not looking for the debate shows like

672
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 2: we've seen.

673
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 1: No, although I'm curious they're licensing these ringer shows, which

674
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 1: are what I would say are light debate shows. Like

675
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 1: Simmons isn't a hot hot take guy, but there's certainly

676
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 1: takes on it, and it is has point of view,

677
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 1: you know, But you're right, I don't think it's a debate, yeah.

678
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 2: You know.

679
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 3: And I mean what's interesting is that you know, these

680
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:25,839
Speaker 3: successful podcasts are like local and that it's an intimate relationship, right.

681
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 3: I Mean, the whole thing with local was that it

682
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 3: just built community base, and these successful podcasts have built

683
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,760
Speaker 3: these large communities. But podcasting is such an intimate medium,

684
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,320
Speaker 3: so in some ways it replaces that intimacy of local,

685
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 3: but at a much bigger scale, in the national scale.

686
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 1: Jay I talk about this all the time. The biggest

687
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 1: difference for me doing a podcast versus doing meat the

688
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: press is I'm much less of a jerk because you know, look,

689
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 1: part of it is you had a finite amount of

690
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 1: time and they were sort of like I always say,

691
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:57,360
Speaker 1: look meet the press sixty minutes. Certain brands are above

692
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 1: the individual and you're there, and there's an expectation of accountability.

693
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 1: In a podcast, you're they your audience is choosing to

694
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 1: hear you, and it is a personal relationship. I mean,

695
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:13,719
Speaker 1: I don't know about you. There are times where you

696
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 1: hear this and you're like, hey, I was I'll tell

697
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 1: my wife something I heard on a podcast and it's like,

698
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:19,799
Speaker 1: you know, I was talking to somebody. No, I wasn't.

699
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 1: I was listening. I was eavesdropping on somebody else's conversation.

700
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:26,279
Speaker 1: But it feels that intimate. And what it means is

701
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 1: I always say this to guests that are always like, oh,

702
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 1: what's Chuck Todd? Am I going to get? And I said, look,

703
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 1: we're not. You know, I'm going to ask you tough questions,

704
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 1: but I'm going toward them friendlier because the audience won't

705
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 1: bother to They don't want to be made to be uncomfortable.

706
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 1: Like it's it's a real interesting balance you've got to

707
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 1: have in this intimate relationship that you have with your

708
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:49,319
Speaker 1: viewers or listen.

709
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 3: And I mean it was similar when we started newspapers

710
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 3: and then the blog started showing up.

711
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 2: You know, blogs are a lot more personal. You know,

712
00:36:58,239 --> 00:36:59,720
Speaker 2: I'll write for the La Times.

713
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 3: There's a certain formality that comes with it and it's

714
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 3: not about me. But if you come to my blog,

715
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 3: then it is much more about me, you know. And

716
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 3: I had even I had a blog on the LA

717
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 3: might share your dog or your you know, hey we

718
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 3: got a new cat in the house, no dog in

719
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,760
Speaker 3: the house, or something like that. Right, there's two different

720
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 3: voices that I had when I was writing for the

721
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 3: newspaper and writing for the blog that was on the

722
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 3: newspaper side.

723
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,319
Speaker 1: The last sort of topic I want to get to

724
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:41,839
Speaker 1: is the infusion and the professionalization of gambling, right, and

725
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 1: what is this meant for sports journalism? And and because

726
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 1: there's a certain amount of journalism that goes into these

727
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 1: analytics sites that are about gambling, there's certainly you have

728
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 1: generational discomfort with how much gambling, Like I've got older

729
00:37:57,680 --> 00:37:59,879
Speaker 1: relatives are like, why does everything have to be about

730
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 1: the points spread now during a pregame show? And then

731
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:04,799
Speaker 1: there are other people that are like, why do they

732
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:06,919
Speaker 1: waste their time on all these soft shows? Just give

733
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 1: me some data that I need to decide what game

734
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 1: I'm going to better? Where does this fit in your

735
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:15,799
Speaker 1: journalism program?

736
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 3: So we've talked about that's one of the things, you know,

737
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 3: we had a segment on in my Business and Sports class. Right,

738
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 3: you have to talk about gambling, And I make it

739
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 3: very clear that that's the smartest audience, Like you have

740
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,760
Speaker 3: to be the most precise when you're addressing that audience,

741
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:36,319
Speaker 3: because for the most part, you might know more than

742
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 3: the audience. Generally you do. But with gambling, they're so

743
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 3: you know, this is their money at stake, so they're

744
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 3: hyper invested, so they might know more than you, and

745
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 3: they certainly you have to know all the terminology, right,

746
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 3: so either you have to go all in. You can't

747
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 3: just touch it lightheartedly, right, You're of no use that point.

748
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 3: So it's really important. What I like about it is

749
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:01,800
Speaker 3: it's creating more opportunities. Again, we talked about things that

750
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:04,280
Speaker 3: didn't exist. It just opened up the market for sports

751
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 3: journalists in some ways. Initially they were more interested in

752
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 3: content and editorial content less so now but I do

753
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:17,759
Speaker 3: think there's still you know, there's still a niche and

754
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 3: probably a lucrative niche right to speak to that audience

755
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:26,760
Speaker 3: because the audience is huge. So the importance of knowing

756
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,920
Speaker 3: the lingo, right, knowing all the jargon that goes with it,

757
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 3: being able to speak that language, and then it just

758
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 3: places a premium on being accurate more than ever. Right,

759
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 3: you always want to be accurate. But now again, if

760
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:41,960
Speaker 3: somebody makes a bet based on a report that you

761
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 3: had that turned out to being accurate, you know they

762
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 3: might find you in this day and age, so the

763
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,360
Speaker 3: importance of accuracy, but it's also elevated.

764
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 2: You know.

765
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,320
Speaker 3: One of the reasons Adam Schefter has millions of followers

766
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 3: is because you know, the timing is everything, right, Like

767
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:01,799
Speaker 3: can you get something in before the word becomes widespread

768
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 3: in the line ships?

769
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 2: Right?

770
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:04,760
Speaker 3: If you find out that the key player is injured

771
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,920
Speaker 3: and you can get your bed in before the line changes,

772
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 3: well that's very valuable.

773
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:11,879
Speaker 2: Right. So time is money more than ever.

774
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 3: So the shift to you know, accuracy and speed, but

775
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 3: with speed comes risk, right, that's probably the problem too.

776
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,880
Speaker 1: The morality piece. What about the morality piece?

777
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,840
Speaker 3: It was always kind of like newspapers wanted to have

778
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 3: it both ways. They would discourage gambling, but they would

779
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,279
Speaker 3: print the lions and you know, the lines were growing

780
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 3: up in the La Times and I don't know what

781
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 3: I think the New York Times.

782
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:41,759
Speaker 1: I think the New York Times was one of those

783
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:43,399
Speaker 1: entities had never put the lines in.

784
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 3: The paper, but most did so there was always this

785
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 3: acknowledgment that gambling existed. It's funny because the leagues didn't

786
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 3: want the newspapers printing the lines. The leagues didn't want

787
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 3: any type of discussion. You know, going back, we talked

788
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 3: about this in my class. The reason Jimmy the Greek

789
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:01,799
Speaker 3: would pick the scores was that was his way of

790
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 3: saying whether or not the team was going to cover.

791
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 2: Like it wasn't about you know, he thought this final

792
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 2: score was going to be this. But he did think that.

793
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,800
Speaker 1: Was the negotiation they made with the NFL to say,

794
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 1: all right, we'll have our gambling expert just predict final

795
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 1: scores and those who know will know if you know.

796
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 3: You know, exactly as the kidsact day, right, So now

797
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:23,760
Speaker 3: you can be overt about it, right, And now everyone's

798
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 3: got their picks. And then in between the commercials come

799
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 3: and here you see the same talent that you just saw,

800
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 3: you know, at the desk, you know, touting these betting

801
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 3: apps and websites.

802
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,800
Speaker 2: Right, so you know, the walls have come down completely.

803
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 3: I don't I don't question the morality of it that

804
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:43,239
Speaker 3: that that doesn't bother me that much.

805
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:46,280
Speaker 2: You know, are you serving the audience?

806
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:48,840
Speaker 3: Right that that's that's the most important thing that's immediate,

807
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:50,240
Speaker 3: You serving the audience.

808
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,840
Speaker 1: This is the issue. I say that the missing mindset

809
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 1: of journalism schools in general is service journalism, meaning there's

810
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 1: there's accountability journalism, but there's basic service journalism. And what

811
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 1: you think is just informational, another person is it's an

812
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 1: actual item telling somebody where there's cheaper chicken. Is service journalism,

813
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 1: even though that's not going to win you a Pulitzer.

814
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:18,840
Speaker 1: And you're right in some ways. You know there's gamblers

815
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 1: out there and they're looking for content serve. Do you

816
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 1: think this needs to be a do you think can

817
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 1: you imagine your sports journalism programming teaching a sort of

818
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 1: sports betting one on one class?

819
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:35,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I would probably do more of it if

820
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 3: I was more familiar with that, if I had more

821
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:41,760
Speaker 3: of a gambling background. But we certainly I have guest

822
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:46,400
Speaker 3: lecturers in the talk about gambling. We have opportunities, for example,

823
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 3: for our students to uh intern at gambling based websites,

824
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:52,040
Speaker 3: right or news outlets.

825
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 1: That's not going to be an entity that you would

826
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:57,360
Speaker 1: not allow to have interns from the journalism program.

827
00:42:57,480 --> 00:42:57,760
Speaker 2: Yeah.

828
00:42:57,920 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 3: No, I mean the only reason there isn't more of

829
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:03,399
Speaker 3: it is just because that's not my interest in my background, right.

830
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 3: But it's not a moral opposition to it, and I

831
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 3: do encourage our students to learn more about it and

832
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 3: to pursue it if that's where they're interested, you know.

833
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 3: And you know, we've had a few students who have

834
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 3: graduated and gone into a gamble. You know. I always

835
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 3: kind of I'll hear from someone with the gambling site

836
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 3: or or a show and say, hey, do you have anyone,

837
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 3: And so I'll kind of send out the word.

838
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,880
Speaker 2: Hey, who among you likes to gamble? Is interested in gambling?

839
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 2: You know? And but it's not.

840
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 3: You shouldn't do it if you don't really know it.

841
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:31,799
Speaker 3: You know, more than you can kind of fake a

842
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:34,239
Speaker 3: lot of things in the journalist business. You cannot fake

843
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 3: it if you're talking about.

844
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:38,239
Speaker 1: Gambling anilers, we'll know if you're faking it. Yeah, no,

845
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:42,880
Speaker 1: they'll know. Are you seeing just a more gender diversity

846
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 1: in the sports program?

847
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, yes, the gender diversity has been great.

848
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:50,240
Speaker 2: It's funny.

849
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:53,719
Speaker 3: My one of my first classes that I taught here,

850
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:55,880
Speaker 3: sports commentary class.

851
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:58,479
Speaker 2: I looked up a couple weeks before a school start, and.

852
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:01,799
Speaker 3: There's no women in the class, you know, and I

853
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:03,800
Speaker 3: had to like put out an APB and try to

854
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:04,239
Speaker 3: round up.

855
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 2: We were able to get one afreshman.

856
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 3: I felt sorry for she was she was the lone

857
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 3: female in the class. But then you know, out of

858
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 3: like a class of like eighteen, it'd be two or three,

859
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:19,560
Speaker 3: four or five, and now we're up.

860
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:20,760
Speaker 2: To like almost fifty percent.

861
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:24,840
Speaker 3: You know, I would say in the sports commentary classes,

862
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 3: you know, and it's really important to have women giving opinion, right,

863
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:31,279
Speaker 3: you know, because that's kind of the prime space you

864
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 3: talked about the Pat McAfee, the Stephen as you know,

865
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 3: we don't have a female like a real equality will

866
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 3: be we have a female version of that, right, and

867
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 3: people showing up and a woman making a lot of

868
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:45,399
Speaker 3: money to give her opinions and hosting her own show,

869
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:48,240
Speaker 3: not being the moderator for two men on the panels,

870
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:50,240
Speaker 3: but you know, being the prime opinion giver.

871
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:53,280
Speaker 1: Or noting the sideline and we're still with the sideline

872
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 1: reporter's almost always female, right.

873
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 3: And in the book It's funny, we had a section

874
00:44:58,520 --> 00:44:59,320
Speaker 3: I was very proud.

875
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 2: A couple years ago there were five.

876
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:04,759
Speaker 3: Women in the booth in the NBA, either play by

877
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 3: play or analyst, and two of them were Medell graduates,

878
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 3: Lisa Byington with the Bucks and Katie Wenjy with the

879
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 3: Denver Nuggets. So it took a while, but I was

880
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 3: able to get them both here on campus. To celebrate

881
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 3: the fact that of the women broadcasting the NBA when

882
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 3: local teams were medill graduates.

883
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:33,800
Speaker 2: Sounds better than two. But you know, so it's growing.

884
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:34,480
Speaker 2: There's opportunities.

885
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 3: I say, you know, there's never been a better time

886
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 3: to be a woman in the sports media field. And

887
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 3: it's not completely balanced yet. But you know what's cool

888
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 3: to me is like I'll turn on a game and

889
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:50,879
Speaker 3: maybe I hear like Candae Parker doing the commentary when

890
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 3: she was with Turner, and it.

891
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:55,440
Speaker 2: Doesn't seem unusual.

892
00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 3: I think it's starting to normalize hearing female voice doors Burk.

893
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:02,719
Speaker 1: I think she's she he'll blaze a lot of trails here,

894
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 1: and you know, I know, you know, the problem is

895
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 1: when you blaze a trail, then when you're not in

896
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 1: that position, it becomes a bigger deal. I sort of

897
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:17,720
Speaker 1: I hate how much attention her so called demotion got,

898
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:21,359
Speaker 1: but in some ways that's how you know you've made

899
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,279
Speaker 1: it right when the demotion gets as much attention as

900
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:24,879
Speaker 1: in some.

901
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 2: Of them words.

902
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 3: Also, you know, yeah, she she got there in the

903
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 3: first but the news is that, you know, she's no

904
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 3: longer on the A team.

905
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 2: But you know, the the real core of the.

906
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 3: Story the nut graph is that she was on the

907
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,880
Speaker 3: eighth right, right and she called NBA Finals for for

908
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:39,920
Speaker 3: ESPN and ABC.

909
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 1: So let me just get you out of here on

910
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 1: how much do you think now? You know that the politics,

911
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 1: the politics of everything is what I call it, right,

912
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:53,880
Speaker 1: we have a way sometimes of politicizing everything. The sports

913
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 1: world has this debate all the time, which is I

914
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 1: want to stick, you know, get out of, get out

915
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 1: of social commentary in my sports. Sports is my distraction.

916
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 1: And at the same time, these are cultural icons, so

917
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:12,800
Speaker 1: they have just as much to say about the culture

918
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 1: that they're helping to create, expand revitalize whatever you want

919
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:24,360
Speaker 1: to describe as anybody else in any other field. And

920
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:26,839
Speaker 1: yet it feels like the big sports broadcasters don't want

921
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,640
Speaker 1: any of that anymore. So where are we on in

922
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 1: that space? Because I look at sports, and you know,

923
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 1: sports has done more. Sports has done a lot for

924
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:40,640
Speaker 1: civil rights in this country, not just for African American

925
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:43,879
Speaker 1: civil rights, but we just talked about for women opportunities,

926
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,000
Speaker 1: Like in some ways it has been a place to

927
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 1: break barriers without as much controversy as you had it

928
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:54,520
Speaker 1: in other spaces. And yet there's this constant debate. Hey,

929
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:57,600
Speaker 1: don't let's not talk about this stuff in our sports commentary.

930
00:47:57,800 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 1: Where are we today on this? I felt like ten

931
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:02,279
Speaker 1: years ago everybody was like, no, it's all infused, it's

932
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:04,480
Speaker 1: all part of the stew And now it feels like

933
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:06,400
Speaker 1: there's nobody wants to touch it again.

934
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:08,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. Two things.

935
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:10,320
Speaker 3: One, it feels like there's been a retreat, like there's

936
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:13,960
Speaker 3: nothing treat physically blocking anyone from speaking out. But some

937
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:16,800
Speaker 3: of the prominent voices that we've had in the recent years.

938
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:18,040
Speaker 2: Have had less to say.

939
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 3: There has been some because you know, there's been some

940
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:26,839
Speaker 3: gender equity. You know, we'll see the new collective bard

941
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 3: and agreement for the w NBA will kind of let

942
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:32,239
Speaker 3: us know where we stand. But you know, equal pay

943
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:35,480
Speaker 3: for the female soccer players right from USA Soccer. So

944
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 3: we've seen some some breakthroughs. So even though we're not there,

945
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 3: maybe you know, the arguments don't have to be as loud.

946
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:46,839
Speaker 3: The flip side is that we've seen sports, you know,

947
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:48,880
Speaker 3: after leading the way in civil rights and so long,

948
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:52,440
Speaker 3: we've seen sports as the entry point for discrimination, particularly

949
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:56,120
Speaker 3: with the trans issue right and and so you know,

950
00:48:56,320 --> 00:49:00,319
Speaker 3: using the premise of sports, you know, to to ban

951
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:04,239
Speaker 3: trans people from activities to discriminate on the basis of

952
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:09,360
Speaker 3: sexual identity. Whereas sports one time led the way to equality,

953
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 3: now we're seeing people specifically being banned based on their identity. Right,

954
00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:18,600
Speaker 3: so sports became a web, you know, because as people from.

955
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:21,640
Speaker 2: The workplace, No, but it's a lot easier.

956
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:25,759
Speaker 3: And the interesting thing is even people like Martina Navratilova,

957
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:31,960
Speaker 3: who was obviously a big advocate for you know, gay equality, inequality,

958
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:34,799
Speaker 3: she was on the side of you know, trans.

959
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:37,600
Speaker 1: Well, this just really divided the women's sports world, right, Like,

960
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:42,400
Speaker 1: and you do, look, I noticed I follow Martina. I

961
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:45,920
Speaker 1: find her common. You know, she's she's fascinating, you know,

962
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:48,800
Speaker 1: I think she's got I'm always curious what she's thinking.

963
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:52,759
Speaker 1: And you know, she's she's pretty. You know, she takes

964
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:54,520
Speaker 1: a lot of arrows for this one, right, She's a

965
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 1: pretty progressive lefty on like ninety percent of issues, not

966
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:00,880
Speaker 1: on this one, on this one.

967
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 2: So here we've seen sports divide.

968
00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:07,400
Speaker 3: The fact that we still haven't had uh you know,

969
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 3: really we had Michael Sam entered the NFL's draft, but

970
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:13,280
Speaker 3: you know, we haven't really seen openly gay NFL players.

971
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:15,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, when we have a start, when a Super Bowl

972
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:16,799
Speaker 1: MVP is openly gay.

973
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:20,399
Speaker 2: Right, that's when you know said that barrier is gone.

974
00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:24,120
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, so sports is lagging in the l g

975
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 3: pt Q issues and is even an entry point for

976
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:34,279
Speaker 3: discrimination on those issues. So that's kind of where we are,

977
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 3: you know, we Jackie Robinson and all this legacy of

978
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:41,319
Speaker 3: integration and equality through sports and sports leading the way.

979
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:45,080
Speaker 3: Now it's it's gone in a different direction and sports

980
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:47,440
Speaker 3: is certainly lagged behind it. You could argue that the

981
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:51,359
Speaker 3: biggest issue right now. Well, I mean, well the other

982
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:54,439
Speaker 3: thing is, you know Latino issues. You know, it's black

983
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 3: and white for so long. Right now, you know, Latino

984
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:03,920
Speaker 3: a little bit is primary thing. And we would think baseball,

985
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:06,880
Speaker 3: you know, should be leading the way with such a

986
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:11,759
Speaker 3: heavily Latino presence, and you know, so many superstars like

987
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:15,560
Speaker 3: you know, Black Guarrel, and you could argue that kind

988
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:18,400
Speaker 3: of diminishment of the media too, right, And I know

989
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:22,600
Speaker 3: Black Guarrel Junior plays in Canada, but you know every

990
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:25,240
Speaker 3: other every road game he plays is in the United States,

991
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 3: and you know you might wonder, Okay, what does he

992
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:30,719
Speaker 3: have to say about this? Right, And it feels like

993
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:32,719
Speaker 3: he doesn't get asked, and this might not be the

994
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:34,880
Speaker 3: time to ask him as he's, you know, on the

995
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:37,920
Speaker 3: verge of the World Series in the Baseball playoffs as

996
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:42,279
Speaker 3: we record this. But still, why are none of the

997
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:45,160
Speaker 3: prominent Latino baseball players speaking out?

998
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:47,480
Speaker 1: I remember it was it wasn't it Carlo still Gatto?

999
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:48,359
Speaker 2: Who who?

1000
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:51,840
Speaker 1: Sort of I think he he spoke out at a

1001
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:55,120
Speaker 1: time it was sort of end of his career and

1002
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:57,360
Speaker 1: it may have cost him a free agency signing.

1003
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, and maybe the reason that there's kind

1004
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 3: of this history, like there's this school of thought that

1005
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 3: the reason that you're seeing so many Latino stars in

1006
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:11,040
Speaker 3: baseball and fewer and puer African American stars in baseball

1007
00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:15,400
Speaker 3: is because the control factor, Right, you can recruit them

1008
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:18,279
Speaker 3: in the Caribbean and bring them over and sign them

1009
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 3: for less money, right, and there's this kind of more control.

1010
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 1: You no child labor law. I mean, apparently you can

1011
00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:25,880
Speaker 1: sign fourteen and fifteen and have some sort of unofficial

1012
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:29,160
Speaker 1: financial control over them and the Dominican or when.

1013
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:30,920
Speaker 3: There are ways you know that you can maybe bypass

1014
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:35,799
Speaker 3: the draft, right and get them. So, yeah, there's there's

1015
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:38,319
Speaker 3: a lot there, and it hasn't been explored enough. The

1016
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:43,279
Speaker 3: Washington posted a great Latino Baseball project. But outside of that,

1017
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:45,400
Speaker 3: we're not talking about this enough. And this is the

1018
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:49,319
Speaker 3: issue of the day. I think the hour is you know,

1019
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:53,040
Speaker 3: Latin American, you know, and how are we going to

1020
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:56,720
Speaker 3: integrate and or assimilate or are we just trying to

1021
00:52:56,760 --> 00:52:57,920
Speaker 3: get rid of them?

1022
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:00,719
Speaker 2: All right? And so you know, that's a great way

1023
00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:01,359
Speaker 2: of framing it.

1024
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:03,560
Speaker 1: I sort of I sort of look like, look at

1025
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:06,120
Speaker 1: it as this is the last gasp of a sort

1026
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:10,400
Speaker 1: of aging patriarchy. Probably it's probably the way to put it,

1027
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 1: or some sort of aging establishment.

1028
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:15,400
Speaker 2: And I'd like to think of that way. And a

1029
00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:16,400
Speaker 2: lot of times I thought of that.

1030
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:18,399
Speaker 1: Well, I grew up in Miami, and I went through

1031
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:21,080
Speaker 1: this in the seventies and eighties, where Miami was a

1032
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:23,840
Speaker 1: southern city. I always say I was born in Miami,

1033
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:27,960
Speaker 1: and I graduated high school in Miami, you know, and

1034
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:35,960
Speaker 1: Miami's a thriving international destination. And it banned English, it

1035
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:40,680
Speaker 1: banned Spanish language from government material in nineteen eighty Ja, Okay,

1036
00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:45,279
Speaker 1: that isn't like eighteen eighties. You know, it was Florida,

1037
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:48,640
Speaker 1: it was Miami, this was Dade County had a referendum,

1038
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:51,359
Speaker 1: so and it was sort of right after the Mary

1039
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:53,600
Speaker 1: Elite boat lift, and there was just a lot of

1040
00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:57,600
Speaker 1: It was the conversation America's having today. This is why

1041
00:53:57,640 --> 00:53:59,760
Speaker 1: Miami is always city of the future because in some ways,

1042
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:03,400
Speaker 1: oh been there. We already had the debate, right, and

1043
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:06,120
Speaker 1: we're going to be better on the other side. But

1044
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:07,880
Speaker 1: I'm not going to lie. We had also had to

1045
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:12,200
Speaker 1: have three race riots that were tri raccal riots, tri

1046
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:15,920
Speaker 1: ethnic riots. It wasn't clean black versus white. It was

1047
00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:20,600
Speaker 1: Cubans and blacks and whites, and it was very uncomfortable

1048
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:23,520
Speaker 1: in the eighties. But what came out of it was

1049
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:27,719
Speaker 1: this thriving sort of post you know, you know, as

1050
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:30,680
Speaker 1: I say, like Miami became Singapore, right, it's sort of

1051
00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:37,279
Speaker 1: this incredible international destination. But I liked how you frame that,

1052
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:38,840
Speaker 1: because you're right, I do think the rest of the

1053
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:42,520
Speaker 1: country is going through this identity crisis. Right, what does

1054
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:45,000
Speaker 1: America look like for the next hundred years versus what

1055
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:49,000
Speaker 1: it looked like the last hundred years? And you're right,

1056
00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:51,800
Speaker 1: we don't touch that story in sports.

1057
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 2: You know.

1058
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:55,000
Speaker 3: And I thought the transition was that for some people

1059
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 3: there's almost a pathological need to discriminate, and it became

1060
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 3: out of favor to discriminate against blacks and became you know,

1061
00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:06,040
Speaker 3: legislated against that. You couldn't, you know, and that team

1062
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:09,359
Speaker 3: like for a while, you know, and then as as

1063
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:12,600
Speaker 3: gays even one you know, for example, legalized marriage and

1064
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:15,080
Speaker 3: one other rights in that way. Kind of the last

1065
00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:18,120
Speaker 3: segment that you could gang up on without that much

1066
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:20,080
Speaker 3: pushback or protection was trans people.

1067
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:20,560
Speaker 2: Right.

1068
00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:22,840
Speaker 3: So I thought the reason that this became an issue

1069
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:25,200
Speaker 3: was because this was kind of the last quote unquote

1070
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 3: acceptable discrimination that we could have right where there would

1071
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:31,719
Speaker 3: not be as much pushback. And you know, my fear

1072
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:33,319
Speaker 3: is and I think we're seeing coming to light though,

1073
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:36,319
Speaker 3: is you start there and then it starts to spread, right,

1074
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:38,359
Speaker 3: So if you don't protect their rights, okay, then we'll

1075
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:39,439
Speaker 3: move on to another group.

1076
00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:43,080
Speaker 1: Famous poem about the Nazis. First they came for the graphics.

1077
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:45,640
Speaker 1: First they came, and then they came out.

1078
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:51,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, we started focusing on trans and no,

1079
00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:53,759
Speaker 3: you can't participate. You know, we're going to ban you,

1080
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:56,600
Speaker 3: We're going to discriminate against you. And now there's like

1081
00:55:57,239 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 3: it's illegal to be Latino and it's going you know,

1082
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:02,520
Speaker 3: like that's like that's the next step is we're kind

1083
00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:07,399
Speaker 3: of declaring, you know, illegitimacy and an illegality too.

1084
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 1: There's something that's arguably been that must right, Right, the

1085
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:16,839
Speaker 1: fabric of our country has always been we assimilate outsiders, right,

1086
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:19,600
Speaker 1: and it's so we've always been this weird contradiction, right,

1087
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:24,080
Speaker 1: we're both where of that's the origin story of our country,

1088
00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:26,600
Speaker 1: and the minute we get here, everybody wants to keep

1089
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:29,719
Speaker 1: everybody else out. It's the strangest I made it. But yeah,

1090
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:33,840
Speaker 1: not you right, you know, but that's a.

1091
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:36,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. I feared that.

1092
00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:39,160
Speaker 3: Sports will not be at the forefront because we've seen

1093
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:42,400
Speaker 3: the last couple hot issues.

1094
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:45,399
Speaker 1: Even though sports used to be arguably the place where

1095
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:48,360
Speaker 1: was at the front. I mean, look, I had a

1096
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:52,920
Speaker 1: great interaction one time with Willie Mays. WILLI was Obama

1097
00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:54,759
Speaker 1: brought him on Air Force one to go to the

1098
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:57,440
Speaker 1: All Star Game his first year in office. So they

1099
00:56:57,520 --> 00:57:00,760
Speaker 1: bring Willy back to the press plane and I said,

1100
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:03,240
Speaker 1: so I happened to be back there. I didn't happen

1101
00:57:03,239 --> 00:57:04,520
Speaker 1: to be back there. I found out we were going

1102
00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:07,360
Speaker 1: to the All Star Game and it was NBC stern.

1103
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:09,680
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm taking.

1104
00:57:09,440 --> 00:57:11,239
Speaker 2: This seat, right, you know.

1105
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:14,960
Speaker 1: I pulled Rake on that one. But I remember asking him,

1106
00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:16,480
Speaker 1: what's it like, you know here you are an air

1107
00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:19,080
Speaker 1: Force one. Did you ever you know with the first

1108
00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:22,160
Speaker 1: African American president? And he said, it meant everything I

1109
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:24,240
Speaker 1: went through was worth it, That's all he said. He

1110
00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:26,960
Speaker 1: didn't elaborate on it, but I always said, you know,

1111
00:57:27,520 --> 00:57:31,200
Speaker 1: being black in the nineteen fifties in baseball, you think

1112
00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:35,320
Speaker 1: that was easy? Yeah, probably the hardest thing. You know,

1113
00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:39,560
Speaker 1: We've we've created a you know, there's a movie about

1114
00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:44,280
Speaker 1: Jackie's experience. But Willie and Hank Aaron and and I

1115
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:47,640
Speaker 1: mean Larry Dobe, right, you know, Larry Adobe, Don Newcombe

1116
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 1: you know, probably was driven alcoholism by it. You know,

1117
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:53,720
Speaker 1: we don't know that, but I think that, you know,

1118
00:57:54,960 --> 00:57:56,840
Speaker 1: but for that, he might be the greatest picture of

1119
00:57:56,880 --> 00:58:00,960
Speaker 1: his generation. You know, it was hard beyond heart and

1120
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:05,600
Speaker 1: you know that's where baseball, you know, we had a

1121
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:10,200
Speaker 1: break up very baseball before we guaranteed voting rights, right, yeah,

1122
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:13,880
Speaker 1: Jackie Robinson's before Martin Luther King. You know, Martin Luther

1123
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:16,880
Speaker 1: King at least had Jackie's footsteps to walk in. You know,

1124
00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:19,480
Speaker 1: who did Jackie get to And you don't think the

1125
00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:21,960
Speaker 1: sports world in the next twenty five years is going

1126
00:58:22,040 --> 00:58:27,120
Speaker 1: to be leading leading the space of equal rights going

1127
00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:28,560
Speaker 1: forward for very And.

1128
00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:32,320
Speaker 3: One reason is you talked about the politics of everything,

1129
00:58:33,040 --> 00:58:36,640
Speaker 3: and I think sports has become a sanctuary. Not that

1130
00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:39,040
Speaker 3: it should be or needs to be sure, but I

1131
00:58:39,160 --> 00:58:43,560
Speaker 3: find myself seeking solace in sports and an escape in

1132
00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:46,040
Speaker 3: a bubble. And I was someone, you know, my writings,

1133
00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:48,320
Speaker 3: I always tried to incorporate and put sports in the

1134
00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:52,000
Speaker 3: context of society and deal with society issues through the

1135
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:54,840
Speaker 3: prism of sports. And now I am someone as a

1136
00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:58,600
Speaker 3: consumer who wants my sports to be in a bubble

1137
00:58:58,880 --> 00:59:00,959
Speaker 3: just because it's everywhere else.

1138
00:59:01,440 --> 00:59:01,840
Speaker 2: I am that.

1139
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:05,080
Speaker 1: I am a walking contradiction myself. My favorite sports books

1140
00:59:05,080 --> 00:59:07,840
Speaker 1: are the ones that are grounded in American culture and

1141
00:59:07,920 --> 00:59:10,840
Speaker 1: about like you know, I love there's this history of

1142
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:15,040
Speaker 1: the Negro leagues and about you know, Jewish financiers who

1143
00:59:15,080 --> 00:59:18,480
Speaker 1: worked with because nobody else would take their money and

1144
00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:21,080
Speaker 1: so they you know, there are all these incredible stories

1145
00:59:21,160 --> 00:59:24,960
Speaker 1: that are larger than about sports, and you're right, we're not.

1146
00:59:26,080 --> 00:59:28,560
Speaker 1: Nobody wants those stories told right now through the prism

1147
00:59:28,640 --> 00:59:30,720
Speaker 1: of sports. They'd go do it, go do it as

1148
00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:33,240
Speaker 1: a documentary for politics, but get it out of ESPN.

1149
00:59:33,400 --> 00:59:36,840
Speaker 1: Right JAA, This was great man.

1150
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:39,760
Speaker 2: Appreciate it, Appreciate it. Thanks for having me on