WEBVTT - Embarrassing Receipts.  Tim Sandefur Talks to A&G

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<v Speaker 1>The Armstrong and Jetty Show. Does the administration greeted parents

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<v Speaker 1>upset about their kids curriculums could be considered domestic terrorists? Well,

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<v Speaker 1>let me unravel this a little bit, because the National

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<v Speaker 1>school Board Association is not a part of the U. S. Government.

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<v Speaker 1>Regardless of the reasoning, threats and violence against public servants

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<v Speaker 1>is illegal. When I was at the Justice Department, it

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<v Speaker 1>was focused on going after MS thirteen. Now apparently it's

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<v Speaker 1>going after parents of thirteen year old. Well, attacking school

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<v Speaker 1>board members has always been illegal. But anyway, the the

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<v Speaker 1>battle between parents and school boards and teachers and kids

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<v Speaker 1>and everything, it just keeps getting hotter and hotter and hotter.

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<v Speaker 1>It seems. Rhetoric certainly gets hotter. Indeed. Yeah, and the

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<v Speaker 1>Goldwater Institute has entered the fray. Tim Sanderford, Tim the

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<v Speaker 1>lawyer vice president for Litigation at the Goldwater Institute, joins this.

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<v Speaker 1>Tim is the author of many fine tombs, including The

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<v Speaker 1>Right Turn of Living, The Permission Society, and many other

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<v Speaker 1>fine things. Tim, how are you, sir? I'm great, Thanks

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<v Speaker 1>for having me back. Oh, it's always a pleasure. So

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<v Speaker 1>heard you. I heard George will mention you on the

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<v Speaker 1>podcast the other day, So congratulations on that. That was

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<v Speaker 1>very cool. Thanks. He's always been very kind about my work.

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<v Speaker 1>He called himself a student of yours. I mean, come on,

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<v Speaker 1>it was that that blew me away. I admit I

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<v Speaker 1>had to text my mom when I heard how would

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<v Speaker 1>you not George, Well, wouldn't mention me unless I rear

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<v Speaker 1>ended his car? Wild texting I'm not going to happen.

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<v Speaker 1>So Tim, tell us about this case. How do you

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<v Speaker 1>come to be involved in the whole of Fairfax School

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<v Speaker 1>District versus mom's situation? Well, it happened with here was

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<v Speaker 1>these two mothers in Fairfax County, Virginia filed a Freedom

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<v Speaker 1>of Information Act request to get information about how the

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<v Speaker 1>school board was spending money on lawyers. They think that

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<v Speaker 1>the school boards spent too much money on legal representation,

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<v Speaker 1>so they just asked for to see the receipts, and

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<v Speaker 1>the government turned over the receipts, and then it realized

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<v Speaker 1>that they were a little embarrassing. And by that time,

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<v Speaker 1>these two mothers, Callie and Ebra Kelly, had published this

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<v Speaker 1>information on her website, so the school board sued her,

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<v Speaker 1>demanding that she deleted from her website and not disseminate

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<v Speaker 1>the information contained in the documents that they lawfully acquired,

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<v Speaker 1>which is a blatant violation of the First Amendment. So

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<v Speaker 1>they called us, and we filed a motion just yesterday

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<v Speaker 1>asking the court to throw their lawsuit out and to

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<v Speaker 1>allow them to publish information that the First Amendment allows

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<v Speaker 1>them to publish. Now, clarify a couple of things, as

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<v Speaker 1>I understand that there were no kids names involved, was

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<v Speaker 1>was there a sensitive personnel information of all the names

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<v Speaker 1>and addresses or anything. Well, some of the documents that

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<v Speaker 1>the school board turned over, yeah, they had failed to

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<v Speaker 1>redact some of this information. Calling then went and redacted

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<v Speaker 1>it and posted it on her website. And the school

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<v Speaker 1>board does not claim otherwise their lawsuits. They do not

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<v Speaker 1>actually say that she published any kind of sensitive confidential

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<v Speaker 1>information or anything like that. They've put that in their

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<v Speaker 1>press releases because they're trying to smear her, But in fact,

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<v Speaker 1>she did not do that, and they don't claim that

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<v Speaker 1>she did. Instead, what they say is this information is

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<v Speaker 1>our information, and we want you to return it. They

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<v Speaker 1>say return, which I think is so bizarre because there

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<v Speaker 1>are no physical documents. These are just computer file. I

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<v Speaker 1>don't know how you return a computer file, but anyway,

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<v Speaker 1>So the court has ordered them not to disclose the

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<v Speaker 1>information in these receipts that shows how much the school

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<v Speaker 1>board is spending on its legal representation, which again is

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<v Speaker 1>totally unconstitutional. The Supreme Court in the in the Pentagon

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<v Speaker 1>Papers case said that the nation's leading newspapers had a

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<v Speaker 1>First Amendment right to publish stolen military documents in the

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<v Speaker 1>time of war. Well, certainly, my clients have the right

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<v Speaker 1>to published information that they legally obtained from the school

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<v Speaker 1>district that are just government documents. Well, I find myself wondering,

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<v Speaker 1>and I know, you know, badmounting judges isn't really cool

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<v Speaker 1>if you're you know, having a case before them. But

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<v Speaker 1>what the hell was that judge thinking? Well, a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of the time, judges want to hold things still until

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<v Speaker 1>they get a chance to hear the arguments of both

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<v Speaker 1>sides and things like that. So they and that's really

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<v Speaker 1>unfortunate because it is unconstitutional to forbid Kelly from publishing

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<v Speaker 1>this information. So we've asked the court to reverse that,

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<v Speaker 1>and we're gonna have some briefing on that going forward.

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<v Speaker 1>But this is just another example what you said at

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<v Speaker 1>the beginning of the segment that this is a trend

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<v Speaker 1>of school boards bullying parents and trying to intimidate them

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<v Speaker 1>when they stand up to either challenge what's going on

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<v Speaker 1>in the classrooms that their tax dollars pay for, or

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<v Speaker 1>in this case, just ask questions that they're legally allowed

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<v Speaker 1>to ask. Now, that's what I was gonna ask you about.

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<v Speaker 1>And I didn't know if you know, since you're actually

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<v Speaker 1>involved in the case, if you're willing to go kind

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<v Speaker 1>of mackerel on this, but you just did on what

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<v Speaker 1>is going on nationwide? Is it because it's the first

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<v Speaker 1>time in so long that parents have mobilized and challenged

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<v Speaker 1>these people and they're not liking it. I think that's

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<v Speaker 1>exactly what it is, and we are. We're doing another case,

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<v Speaker 1>similar case in Rhode Island where a parent asked for

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<v Speaker 1>information and the teacher union sued her for simply filing

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<v Speaker 1>the re west and that case is still going on.

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<v Speaker 1>So yeah, I think what's happening is that, especially the unions,

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<v Speaker 1>especially the teachers unions, they see government schools as their fiefdom,

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<v Speaker 1>as their domain. And how dare we mere citizens, mere taxpayers,

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<v Speaker 1>try to control how our tax dollars are being spent

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<v Speaker 1>and what is being propagandized in the government classroom. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>what's that that Canadas? It's likely to win governor over

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<v Speaker 1>there in Virginia who said in one of the debates

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<v Speaker 1>here to Night, we can't have a system where the

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<v Speaker 1>parents are deciding what we teach in schools. Terry Terry mccauliffe. Yeah, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>the whole vision. You know, the public school system as

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<v Speaker 1>we know it today is largely the creation of the

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<v Speaker 1>progressive movement of the early twentieth century that designed the

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<v Speaker 1>current public school system as a means of instilling in

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<v Speaker 1>children what the government thinks children ought to think and believe.

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<v Speaker 1>As Woodrow Wilson once said, the schools exist to make

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<v Speaker 1>the children as unlike the parents as possible. And and

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<v Speaker 1>I think a lot of public school teachers and the

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<v Speaker 1>teachers unions really take that seriously, and they really don't

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<v Speaker 1>like the idea that parents might be interfering with the

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<v Speaker 1>education of their own children. It's it's really a shocking

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<v Speaker 1>way of of abusing power. But that's what's going on.

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<v Speaker 1>And it's worth pointing out that the teachers unions are

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<v Speaker 1>extremely effective at getting sympathetic school board members elected. So

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<v Speaker 1>many many school boards are are leaning way that way

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<v Speaker 1>you sent toward progressive causes and philosophies. You you saying that,

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<v Speaker 1>tim makes me want to ask you what is your

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<v Speaker 1>feeling about the public school system in general? I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>I know you're adamantly not going to have kids, but

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<v Speaker 1>if you had kids, would you put them in public

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<v Speaker 1>school or not? Oh? Absolutely not, absolutely not and and

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<v Speaker 1>uh and in a lot of the school districts in

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<v Speaker 1>this country, I think the best thing you could possibly

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<v Speaker 1>do for your family is to withdraw your children from

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<v Speaker 1>the government school district. The government schools exist largely to

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<v Speaker 1>propagandize to children what the government thinks they ought to know.

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<v Speaker 1>And although there was at one time a standard of

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<v Speaker 1>quality be that you could find in some government schools,

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<v Speaker 1>I think that standard has just totally collapsed, no matter

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<v Speaker 1>how much money we throw at it. And that's always

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<v Speaker 1>the argument, and they said, oh, we don't get enough money.

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<v Speaker 1>When you actually look at the amount of money it's

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<v Speaker 1>in the public school system, yeah, oh yeah, And it's

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<v Speaker 1>multiples what private schools UH spend to achieve better educational outcomes.

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<v Speaker 1>And we're able to stay open during the pandemic with

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<v Speaker 1>much less money, right, I think it's absolutely tragic and

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<v Speaker 1>heartbreaking New York City schools which have systematically lowered standards

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<v Speaker 1>and past kids head, particularly poor kids, kids of color

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<v Speaker 1>who can't read and write. They've now eliminated their programs

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<v Speaker 1>for gifted and talented education. Now we have completely well,

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<v Speaker 1>New York is completely eliminated the idea of some kids

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<v Speaker 1>who are very bright need to be challenged more. I

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<v Speaker 1>think it's disgusting. I've said I've said before on the

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<v Speaker 1>show that government people think government is our parent, and

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<v Speaker 1>it's not. Government is our child. We pay its bill,

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<v Speaker 1>it's our job to discipline it. And yet we think

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<v Speaker 1>somehow it's okay to turn over to the government our

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<v Speaker 1>youngest citizens, that our future citizens and future generations to

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<v Speaker 1>be taught by the state about what to desire and

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<v Speaker 1>not desire, what to think and not think about our past,

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<v Speaker 1>about economics, about you know that, all the big questions.

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<v Speaker 1>Is it any wonder that so many of them graduate

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<v Speaker 1>thinking that the government is right and and the the

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<v Speaker 1>only solution to our problems as a government. I think

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<v Speaker 1>it's a terrible idea in any democracy to turn over

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<v Speaker 1>the minds of our young would be citizens to the

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<v Speaker 1>hands of the state. Yeah, I don't want to get

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<v Speaker 1>too far off track, and we can get back to

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<v Speaker 1>your specific case if you want to in a second.

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<v Speaker 1>But the podcast as referring to the other day where

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<v Speaker 1>George will of the Washington Post was being interviewed about

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<v Speaker 1>his book when he invoked you, was when he was

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<v Speaker 1>talking about this new move towards equity as opposed to equality,

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<v Speaker 1>and he said, this is the most radical thing that

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<v Speaker 1>has happened in two hundred and forty years of this

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<v Speaker 1>country's history, that we're moving toward wanting equal outcomes for everybody.

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<v Speaker 1>And uh, you know, and that's the sort of thing

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<v Speaker 1>you're obviously teaching in schools, and so forty years ago,

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<v Speaker 1>the big debate among philosophers was what is justice? Does

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<v Speaker 1>justice mean equal outcomes or does it mean the ability

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<v Speaker 1>to pursue your unhappiness and attain it? And nowadays we

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<v Speaker 1>just skipped over that argument entirely. And it says if

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<v Speaker 1>we just assumed that justice means equal outcomes, and so

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<v Speaker 1>we're just going to pursue equity, which means taking away

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<v Speaker 1>from those who have more in giving to those who

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<v Speaker 1>do not, and judging people on the basis of color

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<v Speaker 1>because their ancestors are discriminated against and so forth and

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<v Speaker 1>so on in order to equalize outcomes, because we just

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<v Speaker 1>assume that ask justice. Well, that's not justice, it's injustice.

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<v Speaker 1>Tim Sanderford is on the line, vice president for Litigation

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<v Speaker 1>at the Goldwater Institute. Tim, I want to turn back

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<v Speaker 1>to the topic of schools, at least for a minute.

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<v Speaker 1>The infamous Merrick Garland memo of the other day, in

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<v Speaker 1>which he made it clear that the Justice Department would

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<v Speaker 1>be looking into and it was it was a very

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<v Speaker 1>wishy wash a Lee worded the memo, but in essence,

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<v Speaker 1>any sort of freakas at school board meetings nationwide. What

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<v Speaker 1>do you think of my My test case yesterday was

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<v Speaker 1>I get a little out of hat. I'm piste off.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm at a school board meeting. I get mad and

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<v Speaker 1>I say to somebody who tried to shut me down,

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<v Speaker 1>one of the school board members, somebody ought to kick

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<v Speaker 1>your ass. Do you think the FBI ought to be

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<v Speaker 1>involved in that? You know, the vagueness of the memo

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<v Speaker 1>is the goal, because it is true that there have

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<v Speaker 1>been a few incidents of parents going too far and

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<v Speaker 1>actually you know, threatening or or even harassing or intimidating

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<v Speaker 1>school board members. And of course that's illegal and wrong.

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<v Speaker 1>But the way this memo is written is to allow

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<v Speaker 1>people in the government to smear those who simply, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>get angry or are really passionate about something, to smear

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<v Speaker 1>them as if they're engaged in some kind of violence.

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<v Speaker 1>And we know this has been the rhetorical trick in

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<v Speaker 1>the past couple of years to use words like violence

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<v Speaker 1>or or safety in ways that don't make any sense.

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<v Speaker 1>If you disagree with somebody, now all of a sudden,

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<v Speaker 1>that's an act of violence, and you're you're harming their

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<v Speaker 1>safety and so forth and so on, And that's what

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<v Speaker 1>this meant. That's why the memo is written vaguely in

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<v Speaker 1>order to use it as a club against people who

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<v Speaker 1>simply get angry at the way their school boards are

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<v Speaker 1>misspending their money and mishandling their responsibility. You know, Tim,

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<v Speaker 1>you for me, are one of the mad ones, the

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<v Speaker 1>ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad

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<v Speaker 1>to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time,

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<v Speaker 1>the ones who never yawned or say a commonplace thing.

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<v Speaker 1>I thought I'd hit you with a little caro wack

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<v Speaker 1>poem basically tweet what's going on here? What the hell?

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<v Speaker 1>Are you two up to Yes, I can, I can.

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<v Speaker 1>I can do without the Beat Generation. You know, there's

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<v Speaker 1>a Quilette article out saying the Beat Generations about to

0:11:41.559 --> 0:11:44.320
<v Speaker 1>be canceled, and Tim retweeted that and said, I don't

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<v Speaker 1>think that necessarily be a bad thing. As a fan

0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:50.720
<v Speaker 1>of Jack Caro Wack poetry and Tim being a published poet,

0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:52.199
<v Speaker 1>I thought they'd be a good thing to throw in there.

0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:54.920
<v Speaker 1>I have a book of poetry coming out next spring,

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<v Speaker 1>and guarantee we will love to have you on to

0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:02.280
<v Speaker 1>talk about that. Fantastic all right, And I didn't see

0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:05.319
<v Speaker 1>that coming. Tim the lawyer, Tim Tim Santa for Vice

0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:08.280
<v Speaker 1>President for Litigation of the Goldwater Institute. We will, Uh,

0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:10.520
<v Speaker 1>you know, we need to post a list of Tim's books,

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<v Speaker 1>although if you know how Google works you can find

0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:15.960
<v Speaker 1>them because they're terrific. Tim. We appreciate the time. Thanks

0:12:16.000 --> 0:12:19.480
<v Speaker 1>a million, thanks. All right. You got Tim, as a

0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:21.920
<v Speaker 1>real high falutint poet is not a fan of Beat

0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:24.280
<v Speaker 1>Generation poetry. I got to admit that the Ginsburg Howl

0:12:24.360 --> 0:12:26.600
<v Speaker 1>I've read a hundred times and I don't get at all.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't understand why it's a masterpiece. That doesn't mean

0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:30.920
<v Speaker 1>it's not, but I don't get it at all. If

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<v Speaker 1>the proverbial infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of

0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:36.240
<v Speaker 1>typewriters cranked out something and I read one of them

0:12:36.280 --> 0:12:38.120
<v Speaker 1>at random, it would make as much sense to me

0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:42.520
<v Speaker 1>as that thing did. Or William Burrow's Naked Lunch, which

0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:45.160
<v Speaker 1>I've attempted to read many times and can't get more

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<v Speaker 1>than four pages in. But some of the Jack Carouac

0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:51.439
<v Speaker 1>poetry about walking the streets of San Francisco in the

0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:53.240
<v Speaker 1>middle of the night, going from dive bar dive bar,

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<v Speaker 1>as a guy who's done that a thousand times, I

0:12:56.720 --> 0:13:00.480
<v Speaker 1>thought was absolutely just brilliant stuff. The legend Verry Third

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<v Speaker 1>and Howard And if I get drunk, I get. I mean,

0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:04.719
<v Speaker 1>there's some good stuff in there, I think. And if

0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:08.120
<v Speaker 1>you've never checked out Carouac reading those poems with Steve

0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:10.800
<v Speaker 1>Allen playing the piano on the Tonight Show, it's really

0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:14.200
<v Speaker 1>sounds like verbal pornography for drunkards to me. I don't

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<v Speaker 1>approve it. It might be I won't have it. It

0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:18.840
<v Speaker 1>might be actually, um, that was good stuff right there

0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:20.360
<v Speaker 1>from Tim And if you just caught the tail end

0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:21.880
<v Speaker 1>of it on the podcast, you can catch it. Just

0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:24.880
<v Speaker 1>go to Armstrong and Getty dot com art