WEBVTT - Overconfidence: Hubris and Nemesis 0:00:02.120 --> 0:00:06.960 In tedious exile. Now too long detained Dadalus languished for 0:00:07.040 --> 0:00:10.840 his native land. The sea foreclosed his flight. Yet thus 0:00:10.880 --> 0:00:14.400 he said, though earth and water, in subjection laid o 0:00:14.600 --> 0:00:18.720 cruel minos thy dominion be, will go through air, for 0:00:18.840 --> 0:00:22.239 sure the air is free. Then to new arts his 0:00:22.320 --> 0:00:25.840 cunning thought applies, and to improve the work of nature, 0:00:25.920 --> 0:00:30.280 tries a row of quills in gradual order, placed rise 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:33.159 by degrees in length from first to last, as on 0:00:33.200 --> 0:00:37.280 a cliff. The ascending thicket grows or different reeds the 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:41.760 rural pipe compose. Along the middle runs a twine of flax. 0:00:42.120 --> 0:00:46.320 The bottom stems are join'd by pliant wax, thus well compact. 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:51.520 A hollow bending brings the fine composure into real wings. 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:55.640 His boy, young Icarus, that near him, stood unthinking of 0:00:55.720 --> 0:00:59.720 his fate, with smiles, pursued the floating feathers which the 0:00:59.760 --> 0:01:03.520 moving air bore loosely from the ground and wasted here 0:01:03.560 --> 0:01:07.480 and there. Or with the wax impertinently played, and with 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:12.039 his childish tricks, the great design delayed. The final master stroke. 0:01:12.120 --> 0:01:16.520 At last imposed, and now the neat machine completely closed. 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:20.920 Fitting his pinions. On a flight, he tries and hung 0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:26.000 self balanced and the beaten skies. Then thus instructs his child, 0:01:26.040 --> 0:01:28.880 My boy, take care to win your course along the 0:01:28.920 --> 0:01:32.880 middle air. If low the surge is wet your flagging plumes. 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:36.759 If high the sun the melting wax consumed, steer between both, 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:40.840 nor to the northern skies, nor south orion. Turn your 0:01:40.880 --> 0:01:44.720 giddy eyes, but follow me. Let me before you lay 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:48.640 rules for the flight, and mock the pathless way. Then, 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:52.080 teaching with a fond concern his son, he took the 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:56.440 untried wings and fixed them on, but fixed with trembling hands, 0:01:56.760 --> 0:01:59.720 and as he speaks, the tears rolled gently down his 0:01:59.800 --> 0:02:04.200 age cheeks. Then kissed and in his arms embraced him fast, 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:07.960 but knew not this embrace must be the last. And 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:11.720 mounting upward as he wings his flight back on his charge, 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:15.600 he turns an aching sight as parent birds when their 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:18.960 first callow care leave the high ness to tempt the 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:23.000 liquid air, then cheers him on and oft with fatal art, 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:26.960 reminds the stripling to perform his part. These as the 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:30.840 angler at the silent brook, or mountain shepherd leaning on 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:34.919 his crook, or gaping plowman from the veil descries, they 0:02:35.000 --> 0:02:39.120 stare and view them with religious eyes and straight conclude 0:02:39.160 --> 0:02:43.160 them gods, since none but they, through their own azure skies, 0:02:43.280 --> 0:02:47.160 could find a way. Now delos Paros on the left 0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:51.440 are Scene and Samos, favored by Jove's haughty queen. Upon 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:55.200 the right the isle of Lebenthos, named and fair Calumny 0:02:55.320 --> 0:02:58.799 for its honey famed. When now the boy whose childish 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:02.680 thoughts aspire to lofty your raims and make him ramble higher, 0:03:03.000 --> 0:03:07.840 grown wild and wanton, more emboldened, flies far from his guide, 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:11.760 and soars among the skies. The softening wax that felt 0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:15.680 a nearer son dissolved a pace and soon began to run. 0:03:16.200 --> 0:03:20.160 The youth in vain, His melting pinions shakes, his feathers 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:24.520 gone no longer air. He takes oh Father, Father, as 0:03:24.560 --> 0:03:27.639 he strove to cry down to the sea. He tumbled 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:31.320 from on high and found his fate, yet still subsists 0:03:31.320 --> 0:03:39.920 by fame among those waters that retain his name. Welcome 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:41.600 to Stuff to Blow your Mind? A production of I 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:50.200 Heart Radios How Stuff Works? Hey, are you welcome to 0:03:50.200 --> 0:03:52.400 stuff to blow your Mind? My name is Robert Lamb 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:55.080 and I'm Joe McCormick. And that was, of course from 0:03:55.080 --> 0:03:59.920 Ovid's metamorphoses the Garthen Dryden translation the story of Daedalus 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:02.680 and Icarus one of our favorites that uh, actually i'd 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:06.080 say is a sort of recurring theme on invention as well. Yeah, 0:04:06.120 --> 0:04:07.800 it was one of our I believe we wanted to 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:11.400 originally call the show Datalists in fact, uh, and it 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:14.440 was decided that that was to obscure. The business masters 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:18.400 were like, people will not know what that is. Um. 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:21.600 You know, I enjoyed reading through this, uh, this excerpt 0:04:21.720 --> 0:04:24.760 from from ovid here because even though we have talked 0:04:24.920 --> 0:04:28.479 at length about Datalus and nicaras before and or at 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:30.240 least in passing, you know, bringing up to sort of 0:04:30.279 --> 0:04:32.599 the metaphor and the invention and talked about we've talked 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:36.960 about data lists, other uh inventions and myth as well. 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:40.279 But this, this reading, I think is is rather nice 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:44.080 because it also captures the humanity of the characters and 0:04:44.080 --> 0:04:47.839 and certainly as a father, you know, I can certainly 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:50.000 relate to some of these feelings as he's trying to 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:54.800 prepare his boy for the challenges ahead. There's real passion, 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:57.760 and there's passion in the different concerns of the father 0:04:57.839 --> 0:05:00.800 and the son. The father wants freedom, wants escape, and 0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:04.720 he wants safety, and the sun wants fun. It's basically 0:05:04.960 --> 0:05:09.480 um Cat Stephen's song father and Son, but in in 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:11.920 in mythic form. Now, there are a lot of themes 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:14.760 you could get into when discussing the story of Icarus 0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:16.919 and Deadla. So one of the main themes, of course, 0:05:17.080 --> 0:05:19.760 that people draw out of this story is the theme 0:05:19.960 --> 0:05:25.599 of over confidence and over confidence leading to disaster, right, yes, 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:27.760 and so that is going to be our main focus 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:30.159 for these episodes. But we're pretty excited about it. We 0:05:30.200 --> 0:05:33.360 did no research and and we think we can we 0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:35.320 can probably get four or five episodes out of this. 0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:37.599 So we can just wing it, you know, you know, 0:05:37.960 --> 0:05:41.000 winging it. Yes, yes, that is what it is. I 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:43.640 think that is. I wonder if that's where the phrase 0:05:43.720 --> 0:05:47.080 comes from. You're just winging it like chorus. I don't know. Okay, Well, 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:49.880 if you got lost in the English couplets there of 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:52.880 Garth and Dryden and so forth, Robert, could you just 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:55.279 give a brief summary of what actually happens in the 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:57.880 myth of Vicarus and Dedalus. Yeah, yeah, I'm just breaking 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:01.480 it down to the major plot points. Year. Um, these 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:05.080 these are artificial wings crafted by the master engineer Datalus, 0:06:05.080 --> 0:06:08.080 and then he, uh, he helps his son Icarus put 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:11.440 them on. They're using these to escape from Minos. He 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:13.760 who is the master of the Maze and the master 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:17.360 of the minotaur um and uh so you know, he 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:20.599 puts these these amazing wings on him. But then Icarus 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:22.880 flies too close to the sun. The rays melt the 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:25.360 wax and he falls to his death. And he's been 0:06:25.400 --> 0:06:28.840 specifically warned, yeah, don't fly too close to the sun. 0:06:29.240 --> 0:06:31.520 It's gonna melt the wax. You're gonna plummet and fall. 0:06:31.640 --> 0:06:35.840 But he still flies too high. He flies beyond the 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:40.280 the his ability, flies beyond the engineering constraints of the wings, 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:42.720 and perishes for it. I love the word choice in 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:45.560 the poem in the English version. He wants to ramble higher. 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:48.480 He's he's having fun. He's out there. He's like, it'll 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:51.200 be fine. Yeah. And I think one of the key 0:06:51.200 --> 0:06:53.039 things to keep in mind about this myth, if we're 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:56.320 looking at it and focusing on over confidence, is that 0:06:56.760 --> 0:07:01.159 Datalus is a master at createing these wings, and Hi 0:07:01.240 --> 0:07:04.480 Charas is no slouch at flying with them, obviously, so 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:07.159 it's not a you know, an Emperor's new clothes scenario 0:07:07.360 --> 0:07:12.920 where one is confident, you know, with without any underlying skill, 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:15.520 Like there's plenty of skill to go around here, but 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:18.520 the ideas that charas As sends just a little too high. 0:07:18.600 --> 0:07:22.320 He he goes to that place that he has worn 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:25.520 two road to to avoid, and that is his downfall. 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:28.360 Even though there is a real basis for confidence, the 0:07:28.440 --> 0:07:32.560 confidence in the brain exceeds the confidence warranted by circumstances. 0:07:33.240 --> 0:07:35.320 But then that becomes the whole focus of the myth. Right, 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:39.000 nobody stops to admire, like, hey, datal Is really built 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:41.920 some amazing wings and Icarus was really great at flying them. 0:07:42.080 --> 0:07:44.240 Now we just focus on the fact that he dies 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:47.360 and falls into the ocean. And this very idea of 0:07:47.400 --> 0:07:51.280 like overconfidence that you know that that meets a tragic 0:07:51.440 --> 0:07:55.320 end is such a powerful and common theme of myths 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:58.560 and drama throughout history. Yeah, myths and drama and of 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:02.760 course human histories, which of course involve both myth making 0:08:02.880 --> 0:08:06.680 and uh and dramatic storytelling telling. But there's just so 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:09.360 much of it. It's such a frequent trope that on 0:08:09.360 --> 0:08:11.560 one hand, it's easy to just not think about it, 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:14.760 like this is just what happens in our stories. So, 0:08:15.120 --> 0:08:17.560 you know, we either can't get enough of tales of 0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:21.400 hubrists and uh and over confidence, or it's just such 0:08:21.400 --> 0:08:24.920 a common feature of human enterprise and ambition that is 0:08:24.960 --> 0:08:29.360 just a necessary plot point in almost any tale worth telling. Yeah, 0:08:29.400 --> 0:08:33.160 I think it's not a coincidence that so many figures 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:37.599 from history display hubris and overconfidence, because I think overconfidence 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:39.960 is the kind of trait that, in a lot of 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:43.920 cases specifically is what gets you into the history books 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:47.680 and uh. And from a historical point of view, um, 0:08:47.720 --> 0:08:49.880 you know, granted, is not always a simple matter, because 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:52.360 you know, when you encounter the all too frequent tales 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:55.040 of an overconfident but a net ruler, you have to 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:57.880 consider that, you know, uh, these you know, history is 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:00.720 told by the victors, and this is likely the story 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:04.240 about about about a deposed ruler. But sure enough, you 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:08.400 look at any um you know history of kings and emperors, 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:12.080 you will inevitably find multiple examples of someone who has 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:15.199 pointed out for their overconfidence like this, this ruler became 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:18.240 too overconfident and that was their downfall. And of course 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:21.360 the world of mythic expression is just full of wonderful 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:24.760 examples to chew on. One that certainly comes to mind 0:09:24.880 --> 0:09:28.960 in Judaeo Christian traditions and especially in Milton's literary treatment 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:32.720 of the character, is that of Satan, like the classic 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:36.360 character who who you know, was prideful enough to rebel 0:09:36.400 --> 0:09:39.560 against the all powerful creator God and uh and then 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:42.000 falls for it. And that is actually a concept from 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:44.800 the Bible itself, from from the tanaka. I mean, in 0:09:44.960 --> 0:09:48.280 Proverbs sixteen eighteen, you get pride go with before destruction, 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:51.720 the haughty spirit before a fall. Yeah. Uh. And then 0:09:51.760 --> 0:09:54.000 of course we already talked about about Icarus. But yeah, 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:58.400 You'll find plenty of examples of God's smiting immortal underlings 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:02.120 or mere mortals for find them, and often their central 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:06.480 crime is basically they that they dared to think themselves 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:09.800 greater than they are. They overstepped their status in place 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:13.559 in the grand hierarchy. In fact, in addition to Icarus, 0:10:13.600 --> 0:10:16.480 I think at least two tales are worth pointing out. 0:10:16.480 --> 0:10:19.320 But these are by far not the only stories of 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:23.880 God's punishing mortals and immortals for overstepping their boundaries. One 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:27.839 of my favorites is the Web of Arachne. So this 0:10:27.880 --> 0:10:29.800 is this is a wonderful tale in which you have 0:10:29.920 --> 0:10:34.800 the mortal Arachne, who challenges Athena, goddess of wisdom and crafts, 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:37.679 to a weaving contest, which, of course is always a 0:10:37.760 --> 0:10:40.800 terrible thing to do. Never challenge a god to a 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:44.360 contest unless it's a fiddle contest, and that god is 0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:47.560 the devil and you're down in Georgia, right, and then yes, 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:49.240 maybe you can pull it off in the in that 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:53.920 in in that specific scenario. Um but but but in 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:56.000 this scenario, you know, you're not dealing with the devil, 0:10:56.080 --> 0:10:59.679 You're dealing with the goddess Athena. And so Athena, as 0:10:59.720 --> 0:11:04.560 one i'd expect, crafts a perfect tapestry, resplendent and depictions 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:09.760 of the gods punishing mortals for their hubrists and Arachne 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:14.600 it creates unequally awesome tapestry. But hers depicts all the 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:19.320 various ways that the gods have manipulated and tormented mortals. Um, 0:11:19.400 --> 0:11:22.160 so she's getting a little fresh. Yeah. Well, they're both 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:25.240 putting a lot of, uh, you know, a lot of 0:11:25.679 --> 0:11:28.800 emotion into their their work here there, But they're both 0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:31.760 kind of taunting the other with their subject matter. The 0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:35.319 problem is Arachne is immortal, and Athena is a god. 0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:37.800 Uh And of course the Greek gods are not known 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:41.720 for their reasonable demeanor, right they don't, and so Athena 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:46.640 doesn't play fair. Instead, she becomes enraged, She destroys Arachne's work, 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:50.959 beats her, and leaves her to suicidal shame. And after 0:11:51.040 --> 0:11:54.880 she has died, Arachne becomes the spiders of Earth. And 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:57.760 that's kind of the origin story for spiders and and 0:11:57.800 --> 0:12:02.600 so forth biological ideological myth. Right, it tells why spiders weave. Yeah. 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:04.600 But but one of the interesting wrinkles in all of 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:08.119 this is that both tapestries are accurate from their creator's 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:11.120 points of view, that the ending to this story is 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:14.360 either yet another example of the god's cruelty or another 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:18.640 example of mortals being rightfully punished for their pride. Um. 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:25.000 And again, much like the chorus scenario, Arachne is highly skilled, 0:12:25.120 --> 0:12:30.160 like she crafts of a work that rivals or even equals, 0:12:30.280 --> 0:12:34.839 or perhaps even surpasses the work of the goddess. Uh. 0:12:34.880 --> 0:12:38.120 So she may not have overstepped her ability, but she 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:41.560 certainly oversteps her place. Right, it's a different kind of pride. 0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:44.640 She wasn't overconfident and how good of a weaver she is. 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:48.240 She was overconfident in what she could get away with 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:52.360 saying yeah. And then of course another example, in one 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:54.000 that we come back to again and again on the show, 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:58.040 is that of Prometheus. Uh. Prometheus, the Titan, having stolen 0:12:58.160 --> 0:13:01.960 from the gods the coreld a fire, defied them in 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:05.360 giving this secret to the mortals. Uh. He has then 0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:08.840 punished for all eternity for this sin. Yeah. Another one 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:10.679 that comes to my mind is the myth of Feton, 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:14.640 the son of the god Helio. So remember he wants 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:16.719 to pilot the chariot. He's like, I want to get 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:19.480 in the chariot, but uh, he's warned it would not 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:21.199 be a good idea. And he's like, no, no, I 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:24.320 can handle it. I can Yeah, I can drive. And 0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:27.520 he gets in there and the horses I don't remember 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:30.559 exactly what happens, like the horses don't recognize him or something. 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:33.800 They go nuts and the chariot crashes into the earth 0:13:33.920 --> 0:13:37.640 or something or there there's general disaster. Right. Yeah, that's 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:39.480 a good one. And then there there are various other 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:42.280 tales as well that that we could we could we 0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:45.240 could focus on because again it's just a recurring theme 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:49.320 in Greek mythology. But but also you know other belief 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:52.800 systems as well, like, for instance, just briefly, there's a 0:13:52.800 --> 0:13:56.319 a fun Chinese example of pride and punishment in which 0:13:56.720 --> 0:14:00.200 the Yellow Emperor makes use of of ying long the 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:04.280 responding dragon to execute the God of war to you 0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:07.920 after we dared to raise arms against the Yellow Emperor. 0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:09.640 So there that would be a tale of the god 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:14.040 of war being overconfident in his ability to overthrow the king. Yeah, 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:15.680 so many times you do see a more of a 0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:18.679 militant example of this, you know, the idea that, oh, 0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:21.760 you think you can defeat the god, but you cannot, 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:24.720 and you're punished for that um either and then other 0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:27.760 times it's a contest or something to that effect. One 0:14:27.800 --> 0:14:31.200 thing that I love in the Greek conception of of 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:35.520 hubris is that there was a goddess that existed purely 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:39.920 to splatter people who displayed arrogance and over confidence. And 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:42.720 this was the goddess Nemesis, who I really think we 0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:46.520 we I wish we had a Nemesis today. Uh So 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:48.800 I found I was looking around for stuff about Nemesis, 0:14:48.840 --> 0:14:52.120 and I found this amazing thing that was a a 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:55.720 hymn to the goddess Nemesis, composed by somebody from ancient 0:14:55.720 --> 0:14:59.360 Greece named Mesomades. And this is a translation by somebody 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:02.880 named yelled. Uh. So I've got to read this. This, 0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:07.480 this boiled my brain. Winged Nemesis, turner of the scales 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:11.520 of life, blue eyed goddess, daughter of Justice, who, with 0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:15.680 your unbending bridle, dominate the vain arrogance of men and 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:20.680 loathing man's fatal vanity, obliterate black envy. Beneath your wheel, 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:24.200 unstable and leaving no imprint, The fate of men is 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:28.160 tossed you, who come unnoticed in an instant to subdue 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:31.960 the insolent head. You measure life with your hand, and 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:36.480 with frowning brows hold the yolke. Hail, blessed, immortal Goddess. 0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:40.760 Winged Nemesis, turning the scales of life, imperishable and Holy 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:46.440 Goddess Nemesis, victory of unfurled wings, powerful, infallible, who shares 0:15:46.480 --> 0:15:50.280 the altar with justice, and furious at human pride, casts 0:15:50.280 --> 0:15:54.040 a man into the abyss of Tartarus. Yeah. When I 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:57.080 read that at home the other day, I like literally 0:15:57.120 --> 0:16:00.880 exclaimed out loud um While I'm not usually a big 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:03.360 like cast people into Tartarus kind of guy. You know, 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:06.240 I don't love like eternal torment and hell and all that. 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:09.040 I do kind of wish for a nemesis sometimes to 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:12.520 like fly in, scoop up the fatally vein and arrogant 0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:16.720 leaders who you know, inflict their over confidence on everybody else, 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:19.680 and kind of just toss him under the wheel. Yeah, 0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:23.480 I too love this concept of a nemesis. Uh. It's 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:26.320 also a frequent subject of paintings. You'll see a lot 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:29.240 of you know, European paintings of a nemesis that really 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:34.360 uh to take advantage of these angelic properties that are 0:16:34.400 --> 0:16:39.000 described here, this winged uh female form that is beautiful 0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:42.240 and terrifying, an embodiment of something kind of like karma, 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:45.800 you know, divine retribution, the goddess that comes to avenge 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:48.720 against you when you become too prideful. Though I do 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:51.240 think it's actually more complicated than we usually think of 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:54.440 hubris in the modern sense, right, because like the way 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:58.240 we use hubris, it really does just generally mean like pride, arrogance, 0:16:58.280 --> 0:17:01.440 and overconfidence. But I think you were looking into something 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:04.399 about how the ancient Greeks had a more complicated and 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:08.560 specific yeah, define it gets it gets interesting. I was 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:13.200 looking at at the Oxford Classical Dictionary, and as in 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:18.040 our Fisher pointed out, it was really more of intentionally 0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:23.120 dishonoring behavior. And the author points to Aristotle is providing 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:27.560 a solid understanding of Greek hubrists. So Aristotle contends that 0:17:27.640 --> 0:17:31.000 hubris was quote doing and saying things at which the 0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:34.440 victim incurs shame, not in order that one may achieve 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:37.560 anything other than what he's done, but simply to get 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:40.560 pleasure from it. For those who act in return for 0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:44.720 something do not commit hubris, they avenge themselves. The cause 0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:47.600 of the pleasure for those committing hubrists is that by 0:17:47.640 --> 0:17:51.280 harming people, they think themselves superior. That is why the 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:54.760 young and the rich of humoristic as they think they 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:57.800 are superior when they commit hubris. This is so it's 0:17:57.840 --> 0:18:01.679 just sadism. Yeah, basically, it's just like being mean for 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:05.760 mean sake and being like hurting people in a dishonorable way. 0:18:05.760 --> 0:18:10.560 And I think specifically because it makes you feel superior, right, Yeah, 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:12.760 And and it is also worth noting that like this 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:15.720 is apparently really key to the system of honor and 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:19.120 dishonor that which really important to Greek society. That's right, 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:21.120 I think. I mean one thing that's kind of hard 0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:24.040 to understand is like when you read ancient Greek literature, 0:18:24.440 --> 0:18:26.640 you might notice that they seem to have a different 0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:30.200 idea of morality than we usually do, like for them 0:18:30.240 --> 0:18:33.160 that they're concepts of morals often have more to do 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:36.720 with with things that are considered honorable versus things that 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:40.840 are considered say, uh, for the good of others. Uh. 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:42.840 And you know, it's almost what you were just reading 0:18:42.880 --> 0:18:45.480 reminds me of the classical Greek theory of humor, which 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:48.040 we talked about in our Plato sex Macina episode. So 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:51.240 that Plato and Aristotle basically said, this is hard to 0:18:51.280 --> 0:18:54.280 imagine because it sounds so so hateful, But you know, 0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:57.399 these ancient Greek philosophers are like, things are funny because 0:18:57.440 --> 0:19:01.800 they make you realize you're superior to other people. Uh So. 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:06.480 Plato in his Philibus dialogue is discussing the nature of pleasure, 0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:09.119 and he says, you know, there are different kinds of pleasures. 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:12.600 He's talking about why pleasures of the mind are better 0:19:12.640 --> 0:19:15.240 than pleasures of the flesh, of the of the body. 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:18.800 And he's talking about laughing at people, and he says, 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:20.880 you know, one of the main things that's great about 0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:22.680 laughing at people is that you can laugh at people 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:26.160 who don't recognize their own misfortune. So there are people 0:19:26.160 --> 0:19:28.919 who are stupid but they think they're smart, or there 0:19:28.960 --> 0:19:31.560 are people who are ugly but they think they're handsome, 0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:34.760 and that's really funny, right, Yeah, But in in in 0:19:34.800 --> 0:19:38.040 this it gets more specifically into the use of violence. 0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:41.640 Um and Hubrews was taken very seriously in Athens, as 0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:44.760 there was a law of hubris. In this context, I've 0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:47.480 seen it define more specifically and in this kind of 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:50.600 this is basically what Aristotle said, But an even shorter 0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:53.879 version would be the intentional use of violence to humiliate 0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:57.280 or degrade again, kind of a sadism, things like I'm 0:19:57.320 --> 0:19:59.360 better than you and I'll show you by hurting you. 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:03.000 And and in Athens, unlike murder charges which could only 0:20:03.040 --> 0:20:06.280 be brought forth by the family of the victim, charges 0:20:06.320 --> 0:20:09.760 of hubrists, like charges of treason or in pity, could 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:13.240 be leveled by anyone at anyone. So it's we're talking 0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:17.000 about shameful conduct that ultimately threatens the shame on or 0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:20.600 building blocks of society itself. You know, I do see 0:20:20.600 --> 0:20:22.760 a connection, even though that this is different than what 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:25.560 we usually think of as hubrist. I see what's going 0:20:25.640 --> 0:20:29.840 on here, like I see the conceptual link, the link 0:20:29.880 --> 0:20:33.440 between pride, arrogance, over confidence on one hand, and sadism 0:20:33.480 --> 0:20:37.080 on the other. I mean, it's sadism almost seems to 0:20:37.160 --> 0:20:41.320 kind of imply and assumed pride and arrogance and over confidence. 0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:45.520 It assumes a world view without stating it that one is, 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:48.199 you know, better, more deserving than other people, and that 0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:51.720 their faiths are subordinate to your own. Yeah, that it is. 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:53.639 It is weird to think of this from like a 0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:57.040 modern standard, because you know, I can think of numerous 0:20:57.040 --> 0:21:01.640 examples of individuals, especially like popular celebrity type individuals, where 0:21:01.680 --> 0:21:03.280 you think of them and you think, oh, well, that 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:07.240 person is clearly guilty of hubrists, and yet by the 0:21:07.280 --> 0:21:10.200 great definition, I don't know if they actually used violence 0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:13.440 against someone. Like one of the examples, a political example 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:16.760 that was brought up was like if if one politician 0:21:16.920 --> 0:21:21.240 struck another during a speech, like that's but I don't know. 0:21:21.280 --> 0:21:23.240 In ancient Greece, maybe that was that was an easier 0:21:23.240 --> 0:21:24.960 thing to occur in Certainly there are examples of things 0:21:24.960 --> 0:21:28.879 like that occurring in American political history, but uh, I 0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:32.680 mean not recently so, but well no, but I mean 0:21:32.720 --> 0:21:35.320 I think, yes, you're not coming to physical violence, but 0:21:35.359 --> 0:21:38.440 I could say that that's an extension of the impulse 0:21:38.520 --> 0:21:41.320 you see in just sort of like bullying and blatant 0:21:41.320 --> 0:21:45.000 disrespect and all that, where you're you are assuming a 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:48.600 position of superiority that denies that you would even have 0:21:48.680 --> 0:21:52.359 to to speak on another person's terms. Yeah, so I 0:21:52.400 --> 0:21:54.680 think we see plenty of examples of things that are 0:21:54.920 --> 0:21:58.360 certainly in the spirit of of Greek hubrists, but not 0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:02.800 the definition of actual physical violence. They fall short of that, 0:22:02.880 --> 0:22:05.360 but perhaps not by much. All Right, on that note, 0:22:05.359 --> 0:22:07.199 we're going to take our first break, but when we 0:22:07.280 --> 0:22:09.919 come back, we will will get further into this question 0:22:09.920 --> 0:22:12.400 of over confidence, and we'll start we'll start looking at 0:22:12.400 --> 0:22:17.680 it beyond mythology and history and more at our actual 0:22:17.960 --> 0:22:24.200 daily lives, in our actual inner world. Thank thank Alright, 0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:27.000 we're back. Okay, So we all think we know what 0:22:27.119 --> 0:22:29.840 over confidences we know when we see it. It's a 0:22:29.920 --> 0:22:33.880 common enough character flaw that there are millennia old strains 0:22:33.960 --> 0:22:37.720 of drama and comedy that basically just exists to punish 0:22:37.720 --> 0:22:41.960 it over and over again for our amusement and entertainment. Yeah, 0:22:42.000 --> 0:22:43.639 and of course we always have to remember with tales 0:22:43.720 --> 0:22:45.840 like that, this is not just about the subject of 0:22:45.880 --> 0:22:47.679 the tale, but it's about the consumer of the tale. 0:22:47.720 --> 0:22:51.040 You know, a lot of times we're we're taking in 0:22:51.080 --> 0:22:54.080 these tales of hubrists not only to relish in the 0:22:54.160 --> 0:22:58.720 downfall of these various villains in our lives and in 0:22:58.760 --> 0:23:03.280 our histories and in our world, but also is is 0:23:03.320 --> 0:23:08.240 cautionary tales, you know, like again warnings not to ascend 0:23:08.320 --> 0:23:11.640 too high towards the sun, that sort of thing. Right. Uh. 0:23:11.680 --> 0:23:14.960