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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: You know, I was once a little girl with braids

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Speaker 2: like I could hear that picture. It's so heartbreaking to

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Speaker 2: think that in such a time of innocence, something terrible

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Speaker 2: could happen to you.

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Speaker 1: I think that really stuck with me.

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Speaker 3: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 3: in Austin, Texas.

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Speaker 1: I'm also the co.

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Speaker 3: Host of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and

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Speaker 3: throughout my career, research for my many audio and book

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Speaker 3: projects has taken me around the world. On Wicked Words,

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Speaker 3: I sit down with the people I've met along the way,

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Speaker 3: amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers, and podcasters who have investigated and

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Speaker 3: reported on notorious true crime cases. This is about the

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Speaker 3: choices writers make, both good and bad, and it's a

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Speaker 3: deep dive into the unpublished details behind their stories. When

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Speaker 3: an eight year old disappeared from a homeless shelter in Washington,

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Speaker 3: d C. In twenty fourteen, nobody noticed for eighteen days,

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Speaker 3: even her family. Seven years later, Relitia Rudd has never

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Speaker 3: been found. The Through the Cracks podcast investigates gaps in

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Speaker 3: our society and the people who fall through them. Host

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Speaker 3: John Quilin Hill asks what could have been done to

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Speaker 3: find Relitia. Let's start with where you got the story.

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Speaker 3: Was this PRX approached you about it? Or where did

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Speaker 3: this come from? No, so it's actually really interesting.

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Speaker 2: I went to college here in DC and I stayed

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Speaker 2: after graduation. And I remember I was on my way

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Speaker 2: to work at the time. It was twenty fourteen. I

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Speaker 2: was on the Red Line. People who live in d

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Speaker 2: C and know the metro system, we'll understand what that means.

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Speaker 2: And I was getting off at Union Station for work,

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Speaker 2: which is one of the metro station's closest to the Capitol.

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Speaker 2: I was, you know, a little Hill producer, on my

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Speaker 2: way to get some sound or some tape with somebody's congressman.

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Speaker 2: And I saw Relicious photo in the window of the

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Speaker 2: Einstein Bagels there, and you know, I remember when she

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Speaker 2: went missing. That was also twenty fourteen, but it just

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Speaker 2: blew my mind that her missing photo was still there,

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Speaker 2: and I think her story stuck with me for a

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Speaker 2: while after that. And then, you know, also around that time,

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Speaker 2: we start to see more podcasts. I think of, you know, Cereal,

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Speaker 2: I think of a few years later in the dark,

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Speaker 2: and I couldn't help but think relicious story is also

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Speaker 2: a story that needs to be told. So I pitched

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Speaker 2: it to the station I was working at at the time, WAMU,

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Speaker 2: and worked really hard to get that funding and X

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Speaker 2: came through with a big chunk of it also helped

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Speaker 2: us develop and distribute it, and from there we hit

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Speaker 2: the ground running and started telling the story.

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Speaker 3: You might disagree with this, but this is one of

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Speaker 3: the first stories about a person of color who actually

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Speaker 3: the story gets amplified.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like quite a bit.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we talk a lot about how true crime

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Speaker 3: stories or missing people's stories in general, you know, involving

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Speaker 3: people of color who they just kind of get buried.

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Speaker 1: Is it because she's eight or was it because.

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Speaker 3: This eighteen day lag between when people last saw her

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Speaker 3: and when they found out she was missing.

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Speaker 1: I think it's a combination of things.

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Speaker 2: I think one thankfully, typically when kids go missing, especially

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Speaker 2: in the district, they're found. You know, if you're at

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Speaker 2: a bus stop, it's not out of the ordinary to see,

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Speaker 2: you know, a missing child poster. But often they're found.

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Speaker 2: It could be a custody you dispute among parents could

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Speaker 2: be a runaway. I think even in those situations, we

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Speaker 2: have to treat every situation with a kid like it's

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Speaker 2: an emergency, but they're eventually found.

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Speaker 1: Relicia was not.

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Speaker 2: She was only eight years old, and so she also

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Speaker 2: has this sort of, I guess, for lack of a

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Speaker 2: better term, the kind of perfect victim story. Because you

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Speaker 2: know she's young, there's still a sense of innocence there

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Speaker 2: that people don't necessarily perceive as girls and women get older.

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Speaker 2: I think it's the amount of time she was missing

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Speaker 2: before anyone realized. And I also think this was something

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Speaker 2: that an expert sort of laid out as we were

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Speaker 2: doing the reporting. The fact that she got so much

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Speaker 2: attention kind of highlights Oh how little.

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Speaker 1: Attention cases like these get. She's sort of this exception

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Speaker 1: to this rule.

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Speaker 2: But I remember she was everywhere, all in the news,

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Speaker 2: people looking for her. To this day, people get together

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Speaker 2: and do a search, put up posters, hoping that she's

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Speaker 2: still out there somewhere.

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Speaker 3: Well, and you know, you and I have talked about

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Speaker 3: where to start with this story. One thing I'll be

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Speaker 3: interested in is learning a little bit about homeless show

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Speaker 3: in DC.

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Speaker 1: This was only eleven years ago.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if they've changed dramatically, but that I'm

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Speaker 3: sure has to be another point. Not only do you

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Speaker 3: have an eight year old who is vulnerable to begin with,

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Speaker 3: no matter where you are socioeconomically, but now you've got

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Speaker 3: a kid who's in a homeless shelter.

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Speaker 1: Right, how long had she been there?

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Speaker 2: Oh, her family had sort of been in and out

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Speaker 2: of shelters, bouncing on couches for a while.

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Speaker 1: Her mother was evicted.

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Speaker 2: And DC admittedly has better tenant laws than a lot

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Speaker 2: of places. There are lots of protections, lots of opportunities,

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Speaker 2: but taking advantage of those protections takes time and the

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Speaker 2: knowledge to do it. And you know, if you're working,

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Speaker 2: if you're running around after three small children, you maybe

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Speaker 2: don't necessarily have the time and the resources to do that.

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Speaker 2: Shelters in DC have changed quite a bit since Relicia

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Speaker 2: and her family lived in a shelter. Now we have

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Speaker 2: shelters that are dedicated to families at the eight different

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Speaker 2: wards around d C, and so that's much different. You know,

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Speaker 2: they're made for families, but DC general was not a

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Speaker 2: place that was at any point meant to be a shelter,

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Speaker 2: especially for families. So DC General was an abandoned hospital.

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Speaker 2: It's by now RFK Stadium, where you know, eventually they've

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Speaker 2: they've torn it down, I believe, where eventually, you know,

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Speaker 2: there's probably going to be a new stadium for the commanders.

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Speaker 2: But at the time it was an abandoned hospital. So

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Speaker 2: they turned it into the shelter. Initially, it started as

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Speaker 2: a hypothermia shelter because when it gets below a certain temperature,

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Speaker 2: if people are experiencing homelessness, they need a place to go.

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Speaker 2: And then eventually it turned into a family shelter just

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Speaker 2: because there were so many families in need.

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Speaker 1: It very much looked like a hospital.

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Speaker 2: One of the organizers. I talked to the executive director

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Speaker 2: of the Homeless Children's Playtime Project, which is an organization

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Speaker 2: that creates space and playtime for children in homo shelters,

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Speaker 2: Jimila Larson. She was saying that they would go and

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Speaker 2: there would still be boxes of you know, medical record

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Speaker 2: documents and kids. You know, you got to go to

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Speaker 2: the bathroom in the middle of the night. They were

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Speaker 2: required to be with their parents at all times, and

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Speaker 2: it was sort of this dormitory style shower, not necessarily

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Speaker 2: a place where you know, what if you have a

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Speaker 2: little girl and she just started her period and you

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Speaker 2: got to get up in the middle of the night.

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Speaker 2: Now you got to bring the whole entire family to

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Speaker 2: the bathroom. There was even an incident that was very

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Speaker 2: scary for families and for the person who was injured,

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Speaker 2: where a man was shot and his friends saw the

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Speaker 2: DC General sign and assumed it was a hospital they

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Speaker 2: drove there.

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Speaker 1: It was not a working hospital.

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Speaker 2: The families were freaking out, the guy who was shot

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Speaker 2: was freaking out. It was just it was a really

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Speaker 2: bad situation. And in fact, before Relicia disappeared, there was

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Speaker 2: a fight overbuilding a playground there. You know, the families

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Speaker 2: they wanted a playground, and the city pushed back, I

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Speaker 2: think in part because it would have really signified a

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Speaker 2: sense of permanence and would have sort of let people know, oh,

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Speaker 2: their children here, And it was not a place for children.

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Speaker 2: So it was just it was a really it was

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Speaker 2: not a great place to grow up. And I think

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Speaker 2: that also put Relicia and her family in a vulnerable

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Speaker 2: position to end up befriending this man, who it turned

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Speaker 2: out was really dangerous.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about Relicia, and then I want to know

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Speaker 1: about her family.

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Speaker 3: We get to hear from her in your podcast. How

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Speaker 3: does that audio come about? I mean it's just for me,

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Speaker 3: heartbreaking knowing what was going to happen, but just as

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Speaker 3: sweet as can be when you hear it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that video some of the last video

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Speaker 2: of her. It was recorded with the Homeless Children's Playtime Project.

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Speaker 2: You know, you do these fundraising videos. You get the

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Speaker 2: kids to say, yeah, we need a place to play.

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Speaker 2: We love to play. And it's funny because when you

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Speaker 2: look at that full video, you know, she's such a

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Speaker 2: little girl, like she's being goofy. She has her hands

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Speaker 2: in her face, she's like being silly and they're off

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Speaker 2: kind of like okay, can you do it again? I mean,

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Speaker 2: we all know what it's like to coax a kid

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Speaker 2: into a picture or a video when you're doing something.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, she's just this little girl acting like this

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Speaker 2: little girl. And that's some of the last video we

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Speaker 2: have of her. She loved arts and crafts. She was

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Speaker 2: the big sister. And I think you know those running

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Speaker 2: there's that running joke about how oldest sisters and families

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Speaker 2: should probably unionize because they just do so much, they

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Speaker 2: take on so much responsibility, and that was Relicia. You know,

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Speaker 2: her brothers did have a few behavioral problems, but Relicia

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Speaker 2: was quiet. She was well behaved, and because of that,

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Speaker 2: I think sometimes she got lost in the shuffle from

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Speaker 2: her brothers who kind of needed more attention from her family.

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Speaker 3: So tell me about her part of the family that's

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Speaker 3: actually in the shelter. It's her brothers and Relicia and

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Speaker 3: then her mom or is there anybody else.

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Speaker 2: Right, So in the shelter it was Relitia, her younger brothers,

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Speaker 2: her mother, and then sometimes her stepfather Antonio. Antonio wasn't

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Speaker 2: always around because he would get work, you know, working

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Speaker 2: construction sites, would often go to Pennsylvania so he could

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Speaker 2: earn money from the family and come back. But her

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Speaker 2: family that was in the shelter, it was her her

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Speaker 2: brothers and her mom. She did have family that was

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Speaker 2: outside the shelter. She had an aunt she would spend

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Speaker 2: time with. She had a grandmother she would spend time with.

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Speaker 2: It was it was a mix, but mainly her place

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Speaker 2: of residence was the shelter.

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Speaker 3: Now is her mother in Antonio. Are they considered underemployed

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Speaker 3: or unemployed? I mean, I know that you said he

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Speaker 3: would go out and stuff. I guess I'm asking how

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Speaker 3: did they end up at this shelter aside from being evicted?

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Speaker 1: What led to all of that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really the eviction because once it's on, it's

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Speaker 2: very difficult to find other places that will rent to you.

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Speaker 2: DC is a very expensive city, even more so now,

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Speaker 2: but very expensive at the time, and you know, their

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Speaker 2: native Washingtonians. In fact, her stepfather, Antonio, also has a

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Speaker 2: really tragic story. He was put into foster care as

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Speaker 2: a child because his stepfather murdered his little sister. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 2: the entire family basically got broken up and he was

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Speaker 2: put into foster care. And it was very heartbreaking interviewing

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Speaker 2: him because all he ever wanted because of that was

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Speaker 2: to have a family and a family that sticks together,

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Speaker 2: and then this tragedy hits.

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Speaker 1: It was just so cyclical and so heartbreaking.

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Speaker 3: Well, we'll talk about Antonio and how he plays into

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Speaker 3: this a little bit later, because I'm sure you know,

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Speaker 3: immediately people think, well, he must be you know, the

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Speaker 3: key suspect, the offender. But you know, let's keep going

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Speaker 3: with personalities in the family. So you have said that

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Speaker 3: Relicia was sort of the caretaker, the older sister, and

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Speaker 3: she had brothers who were a little contankerous, it sounds like.

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Speaker 3: And then her mom, I mean, are we considering this

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Speaker 3: a really solid nuclear family despite you know, things that

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Speaker 3: are happening economically in their lives and instability.

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Speaker 2: No, her mom had a lot on her plate as well,

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Speaker 2: so she grew up in shelters as well, like she

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Speaker 2: grew up in shelters in Virginia. Also, there's reporting in

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Speaker 2: the Washington Post like she does have a little bit

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Speaker 2: of a developmental delay. And she also had Relicia fairly young.

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Speaker 2: I believe she was nineteen when she had her, and

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Speaker 2: Relicio's father is considerably older than her mother, you know,

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Speaker 2: and for all the conversations about age gaps, is just yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's a sticky situation. She was dealing with a lot,

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Speaker 2: So she was dealing with her own stuff, plus having

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Speaker 2: sons with some behavioral issues and a daughter. There was

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Speaker 2: not a lot of stability there.

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Speaker 3: No so in DC shelters in this time period in

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Speaker 3: twenty fourteen, and again I'm not familiar with them. Now,

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Speaker 3: were they going to transition this family out of the

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Speaker 3: shelter into like is there are there work positions available,

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Speaker 3: Are they pushing forward? Is this a good place to

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Speaker 3: transition to a more stable life or was this just

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Speaker 3: a ticket day by day situation.

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Speaker 1: According to her mom and her stepfather, I.

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Speaker 2: Think at the time it was more taken day by day.

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Speaker 2: Now in DC, the way people approach homelessness is much different.

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Speaker 2: You know, you have rapid rehousing, you have programs that

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Speaker 2: get people into housing, that help with job training, that

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Speaker 2: help with a series of things.

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Speaker 1: But that was not the landscape at the time.

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Speaker 2: There really weren't as many resources being poured into it

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Speaker 2: as there are now. The approach the city has taken

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Speaker 2: and has changed in a major part to relicious disappearance.

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Speaker 3: Actually, isn't that so? That's awful? And this was halfway

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Speaker 3: through Obama's second term? Is that about right now?

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Speaker 1: Twenty fourteen?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Okay, was there anything when when this really was

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Speaker 3: rolling and there was panic, you know, eighteen days later?

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Speaker 3: Was was he involved in any way or did he

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Speaker 3: help amplefly?

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Speaker 2: I don't think so. It really felt like such a

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Speaker 2: local story, okay, like you would occasionally see it on

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Speaker 2: the cable news. You would occasionally see things, but when

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Speaker 2: it was everywhere, it was everywhere locally there were vigils.

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Speaker 2: I mean, people went searching, but it was also it

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Speaker 2: was major to Washingtonians.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think when you're in the middle of

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Speaker 3: that search, kind of like I think about Gabby Petito thing,

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Speaker 3: when it is like a clear and present danger.

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Speaker 1: Somebody is in danger, let's figure out where they are.

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure the themes pop up immediately, like the

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Speaker 3: people are not going to be talking about homeless shelter

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Speaker 3: safety immediately.

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Speaker 1: They're just gonna say, where's this kid? Right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly Like when I when I think about Through

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Speaker 2: the Cracks, I've kind of described it, it's almost a

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Speaker 2: trojan horse, like, yes, it's this true crime story, but

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Speaker 2: it's also a trojan horse to get at home listeners

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Speaker 2: policy in America. And it's kind of like, not until

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Speaker 2: you're in it for a little bit you realize, oh wait,

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Speaker 2: this is about affordable housing. This is about how we

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Speaker 2: think of kids, how we treat kids, childcare, and the

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Speaker 2: accessibility to that. I think what's interesting and part of

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Speaker 2: the reason we called it Through the Cracks is like, yes,

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Speaker 2: ideally your family is your first social safety net, but

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Speaker 2: there are safety nets in place when that safety net

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Speaker 2: falls through and there were just so many, so many

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Speaker 2: safety nets that she fell through.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, when people criticize true crime and put all of

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Speaker 3: us under this umbrella of you know, the stuff that

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Speaker 3: really is sensationalized and really you know, glorifies the killer

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Speaker 3: and ignores the victims, it makes me really angry because

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Speaker 3: you know, you cannot put us all under that umbrella.

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Speaker 3: True crime is powerful in some ways, in a lot

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Speaker 3: of ways because of this, because of a podcast like

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Speaker 3: Through the Cracks, and you know, anything else that I

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Speaker 3: think is of high quality, hopefully the things that I do,

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Speaker 3: which is, you know you are yes, you're talking about

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Speaker 3: a death. Yes there's drama, Yes there are characters there,

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Speaker 3: and you know you're looking for a resolution. It follows

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Speaker 3: that storyline that people say good stories are supposed to be.

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Speaker 3: But it always there's always a circumstance for why it

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Speaker 3: happened that you can talk about. It's whether you take

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Speaker 3: advantage of that and actually want to inform people about

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Speaker 3: it or not.

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Speaker 1: And you do, Yeah, thank you. I mean I think

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Speaker 1: that's the thing.

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Speaker 2: Like, I think the definition of true crime has shifted

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Speaker 2: quite a bit, and you.

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Speaker 1: Know, people call it guilty pleasure or whatever.

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Speaker 2: But I've always been sort of like into the true

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Speaker 2: crime of it all, Like I will always throw on

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Speaker 2: a documentary, I'll always see what's going on. But I

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Speaker 2: think the way we think of true crime has also changed,

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Speaker 2: both with like through the cracks, but I also think

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Speaker 2: in the dark, like we're not just talking about there

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Speaker 2: are all types of victims, like wrongful conviction that is

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Speaker 2: also a victim that is also getting into like these

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Speaker 2: big systemic things, you know, both people who are wrongly convicted,

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Speaker 2: people who are victims of crimes. Like it's all about

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Speaker 2: vulnerable populations and how they're treated or not treated.

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Speaker 1: I really think that's like the heart of it.

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Speaker 2: And I think some of the appeal of true crime

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Speaker 2: I don't know, Like, yes, I guess people lead into

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Speaker 2: like oh, it's so salacious, but I think there is

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Speaker 2: also this sense of like an attempt at control, like

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Speaker 2: maybe if I know what's out there, there's a way

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Speaker 2: for me to protect myself and there may not be frankly,

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Speaker 2: and that is honestly scary, but I do not fault

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Speaker 2: those of us who try.

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Speaker 3: And I think that there isn't a need and a

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Speaker 3: lot of us and maybe this is just me projecting

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Speaker 3: to want to see some good something happen at the

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Speaker 3: end of one of these stories, like Okay, this person

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Speaker 3: did this awful thing, or this young girl is gone.

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Speaker 1: Can we you know, it's God.

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Speaker 3: I hope something good happens, and when it doesn't, you know,

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Speaker 3: it's I think it can be difficult. That's why untulf

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Speaker 3: cases are upsetting for me. And we'll get to to

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Speaker 3: that more.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, shifting back to you as a journalist, had you

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Speaker 3: ever reported this much on homeless shelters or just the

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Speaker 3: homeless population before all of this started.

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Speaker 2: No, this was this was a totally new endeavor for me.

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Speaker 2: Prior to this. You know, I worked as an audio producer.

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Speaker 2: I joke that I'm a producer's rights advocate, like producers

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Speaker 2: they make these pop why or would we be without

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Speaker 2: you producers? Thank you producers.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, it was.

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Speaker 2: It was a really big leap as far as skills go.

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Speaker 2: Like I'd always loved interviewing people, I always loved talking,

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Speaker 2: but it was, Oh, we're going through documents, we're doing

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Speaker 2: Foyer requests, We're doing this brand new sort of journalism

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Speaker 2: that you have not done before. And so I really

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Speaker 2: appreciate the story for that as well. The fact that

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Speaker 2: it stretched me beyond my comfort zone. We also did

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Speaker 2: a lot of the reporting during COVID and oh my gosh,

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Speaker 2: like just hopping in a car, wrapping a microphone in

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Speaker 2: a saran wrap, going to a park to interview her

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Speaker 2: family members.

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Speaker 1: It was wild. It really was. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I reported during COVID too, and it was pretty scary.

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Speaker 3: I mean I did some before and then you know,

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Speaker 3: for my first show, and it is it's weird. I

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Speaker 3: mean there's always sort of a especially with audio or video,

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Speaker 3: there's always that sort of barrier people have a first

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Speaker 3: unless they really want to be on camera or really

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Speaker 3: are confident with themselves. And then you add that layer

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Speaker 3: of masks or just sort of a you know, a

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Speaker 3: scariness element to it. I think it makes it hard.

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Speaker 3: You're right, when did you come into this story. I

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Speaker 3: know that it came out in twenty twenty one and

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Speaker 3: you were reporting earlier on it, but you had said

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Speaker 3: it was you know, how many years is it six

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Speaker 3: or seven years later?

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I first pitched this in twenty seventeen. It

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Speaker 2: was a long time coming. I'll be forever grateful that

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Speaker 2: I kind of like got the time in space to

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Speaker 2: do that reporting. The reporting really started in earnest I

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Speaker 2: want to say, like end of twenty nineteen. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: it was a story that was with me for a

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Speaker 2: long time, and I just something about it.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't let go. I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I just see that picture of Relicia and her braids.

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Speaker 2: You know, I was once a little girl with braids,

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Speaker 2: like I could hear that picture. I can smell the

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Speaker 2: cocoa butter in that picture, and it's just it's so

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Speaker 2: heartbreaking to think that in such a time of innocence,

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Speaker 2: where you're you know, you're jumping around, you're hanging out,

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Speaker 2: like something terrible could happen to you.

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Speaker 1: I think that really stuck with me.

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Speaker 2: Relicio's story is really interesting because when you go in

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Speaker 2: chronological order, it's hard to know quite what order to

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Speaker 2: go in. But I think the best place to start

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Speaker 2: is when the city realized she was missing. So Licia

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Speaker 2: was last seen on surveillance video March first. It wasn't

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Speaker 2: until March nineteenth that the city realized she was missing.

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Speaker 2: And so Relicia was living in this homeless shelter, you know,

401
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Speaker 2: family a little bit all over the place, things getting

402
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Speaker 2: lost in the shuffle. There was a man who was

403
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Speaker 2: a janitor at the homeless shelter, and you know, he

404
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Speaker 2: was really nice to the kids.

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Speaker 1: He would always give them presents. He would say, how

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Speaker 1: are you doing.

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Speaker 2: And he befriended Relicio's mother, Shamikha, and he said, you know,

408
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Speaker 2: I have a granddaughter, like Relisia, can come stay with me,

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Speaker 2: my wife, my granddaughter, like, We'll do trips, We'll do

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Speaker 2: that sort of things. And you know, if you are

411
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Speaker 2: in a very trustful situation, your kids are in a

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Speaker 2: chaotic environment, you may not think things through and you

413
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Speaker 2: may jump at the chance of stability, especially if you

414
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Speaker 2: have this one child who is very well behaved and

415
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,960
Speaker 2: her little brothers require more attention. So this was an

416
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:59,320
Speaker 2: ongoing friendship that they had. Relicia would refer to Khalil

417
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Speaker 2: as her godfather. They would spend tons of time together,

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00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:08,280
Speaker 2: hang out with his granddaughter, amusement parks, you know, stuff

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Speaker 2: kids like. At the same time, Relicia was missing a

420
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Speaker 2: lot of school, and you know, she did have health issues,

421
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Speaker 2: so she would get excused quite a bit. But it

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Speaker 2: turned out that Khalil Tatum, who was the janitor at

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Speaker 2: the shelter that befriended her family, was writing some of

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Speaker 2: the notes, he was referring to himself as the doctor

425
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Speaker 2: who was excusing Relicia. And so Relicia was seen on

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Speaker 2: a surveillance video of February twenty sixth, you know, at

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Speaker 2: a holiday in express in Northeast DC. March first, she's

428
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:46,200
Speaker 2: seen on surveillance at a days in in Northwest DC.

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Speaker 2: And then on March second, that's when Khalil Tatum was

430
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Speaker 2: seen purchasing forty two gallon trash bags a shovel in

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Speaker 2: lime and he was also seen around the Kennilworth Park

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Speaker 2: and aquatic guards. But at this time, you know, the

433
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,480
Speaker 2: city still isn't aware that she's nowhere to be found.

434
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Speaker 2: So Milicia reached ten unexcused absences from her elementary school

435
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Speaker 2: pay an elementary school which was near the shelter and

436
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Speaker 2: where a lot of children experiencing homelessness went. The school

437
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:22,240
Speaker 2: social worker was like, okay, we got to notify family

438
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,440
Speaker 2: services figure out what's going on. The social worker really

439
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,719
Speaker 2: is the reason that things start going off. You know,

440
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 2: he goes to the shelter and he's like, so, what's

441
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:33,360
Speaker 2: the deal with Relicia. I haven't been hearing from her.

442
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:36,040
Speaker 2: We keep hearing from doctor Tatum. Is there a doctor

443
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,639
Speaker 2: Tatum here? And someone was like doctor Tatum. There's no

444
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,720
Speaker 2: doctor Tatum, but there is a Tatum that's a janitor.

445
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:46,600
Speaker 2: And that's when he realizes, oh no, something is wrong,

446
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,040
Speaker 2: and that's when the police get involved, the city gets involved.

447
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,920
Speaker 2: Her family is questioned, and that's also the time that

448
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,280
Speaker 2: Khalil Tatum and his wife Andrea check into a hotel

449
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:01,880
Speaker 2: in Maryland. The next day, that's when the city goes

450
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,160
Speaker 2: public with it. You know, there's a huge search. People

451
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 2: are coming through the gardens. But it's also on the

452
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:11,159
Speaker 2: twentieth that Khalil Tita's wife, Andrea is found dead in

453
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:12,760
Speaker 2: a hotel room from.

454
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 1: A gunshot wound.

455
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 2: One thing that I think it's really important to point

456
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 2: out in the story is that there is more than

457
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 2: one victim. I spoke with Andrea's daughter, and I'm so

458
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,399
Speaker 2: grateful for her time because it was really important to

459
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,159
Speaker 2: me because not a lot was known about her, like

460
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,879
Speaker 2: what's her story? Like she's missed and her daughter was

461
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,679
Speaker 2: just it really left her broken and confused because she

462
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 2: said Khalil loved her mom like he would spoil her.

463
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 2: He was all about her and for him to go

464
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 2: around to go kill her. It's like, okay, well then

465
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 2: what does that say about love? If someone can love

466
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:50,440
Speaker 2: you that much and still harm you? And I think

467
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 2: that's really stuck with her. I asked her, you know,

468
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,160
Speaker 2: does that make like being in relationship with people really hard?

469
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 2: And she's like, yeah, I don't know who to trust

470
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 2: because at any point things could go left, things could

471
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 2: get dangerous. You may not even know the person that

472
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 2: you're with, and so I don't know. I just like

473
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 2: to also think of Andrea in that hm, because like

474
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:13,479
Speaker 2: there's just so many victims in this.

475
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 3: So the last time her mom saw her, is it

476
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,640
Speaker 3: February twenty sixth? Is that when it was somebody other

477
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:21,200
Speaker 3: than Khalil and his wife?

478
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:21,959
Speaker 1: When was that?

479
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,640
Speaker 2: I don't know the exact date, but I know her

480
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,679
Speaker 2: aunt was like, Okay, she is gonna hang out with

481
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 2: them till Easter.

482
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:32,480
Speaker 1: They're gonna go buy her some Easter shoes.

483
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,680
Speaker 2: Like that was sort of the last conversation they had

484
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 2: that you know, oh, Easter's coming up soon.

485
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 1: We got to get her address and shoes for Easter service.

486
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 3: How long had they been at the shelter before they

487
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 3: meet Khalil and Andrea and this sort of relationship starts.

488
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 2: I don't think very long, because it was known that

489
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,159
Speaker 2: he would befriend families pretty quickly when they moved in.

490
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 2: I think he gave one girl a fish as a gift.

491
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:02,680
Speaker 2: In her mind was like, I don't like this. You

492
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 2: are stranger given gifts like no. But it also was

493
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 2: not uncommon for kids who were staying at the shelter

494
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,479
Speaker 2: to not necessarily be at the shelter. Like, you know,

495
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 2: if you have no family with a house, people would

496
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,400
Speaker 2: be more likely to send their kid to go stay

497
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:22,239
Speaker 2: with family. So even though Relitia wasn't necessarily checked in

498
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,240
Speaker 2: at night at the shelter, it wasn't that out of

499
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 2: the ordinary because so many kids would stay with friends

500
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,160
Speaker 2: and family rather than stay at the shelter.

501
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 1: So they would not at the shelter.

502
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 3: And I don't know if this is realistic now, but

503
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,119
Speaker 3: they would not track people coming in and out at all,

504
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:39,439
Speaker 3: like and want to know where you're going, mister Anthony,

505
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 3: where are you going?

506
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean they were supposed to. I think it

507
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 2: like really fell by the wayside at times. And also

508
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 2: like there's this feeling among families because I've even talked

509
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 2: with families who are in shelter now, and it's this

510
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,199
Speaker 2: feeling of like, I'm an adult, I have a family.

511
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:55,919
Speaker 2: Why do I need to check in and out if

512
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 2: I'm a grown person? Like it's this back and forth

513
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 2: between like Okay, is this necessary or is it paternalistic?

514
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 2: But they were supposed to be checking in but they weren't. Also,

515
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 2: you know, Khalil Tatum had a record. I think there's

516
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,720
Speaker 2: a conversation to be had about people who have been

517
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,199
Speaker 2: incarcerated being able to find work and find jobs. They

518
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 2: should absolutely be able to find work, but according to

519
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,439
Speaker 2: DC policy at the time, because of his record, he

520
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 2: was not supposed to be working at that shelter, and

521
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:20,679
Speaker 2: yet he was.

522
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:26,160
Speaker 3: Well, Okay, how did Antonio feel about Khalil and Andrea?

523
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 3: I mean, did he have an opinion at all? I'm

524
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,439
Speaker 3: sure he was just trying to get work and provide

525
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 3: for his family and get them out of there.

526
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,199
Speaker 2: He says that in hindsight it was very weird, but

527
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 2: he had his sons with Shamikha, and Relicia was not

528
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,199
Speaker 2: his biological daughter and her mother was very much like

529
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,199
Speaker 2: Relicious mine. I make the decision when it comes to

530
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:49,879
Speaker 2: my daughter, like stay out of this. So she vanishes.

531
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,640
Speaker 2: She's seen on surveillance video at different hotels.

532
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 3: Does he call in sick? How would he have accounted

533
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,679
Speaker 3: for his time being gone? For my understand, he was

534
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 3: just gone.

535
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 2: I don't think he was calling in and checking in

536
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 2: or anything like that with them.

537
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 3: Okay, had he had any other kind of instances I

538
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 3: know you said he had a record, but anything else

539
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 3: that were red flags at the shelter at the time,

540
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 3: and they just said, well, who was we going to

541
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,360
Speaker 3: get to do this or was there was nothing happening

542
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 3: with him before this?

543
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 1: No, like people did not pick up red flags.

544
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:27,680
Speaker 2: His step daughter, Andrea's daughter, did say the very very

545
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 2: weird thing that he brought up to her mother was

546
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 2: that he was like, oh, I want to get a gun,

547
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 2: and her mother was like, you're a convicted felon.

548
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 1: You can't own a gun.

549
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 2: Like also, this is DC Maryland, Like it's it's not

550
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 2: that easy, And it was just they thought it was

551
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 2: weird that he was just like I'm pushing like, yeah,

552
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 2: I want to I want to get a gun, where

553
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 2: it's like you can't.

554
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 1: You can't because of your record.

555
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 3: Okay, So would you think talking to experts that this

556
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 3: would be considered grooming today. I don't even know if

557
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 3: we have that term in twenty four Oh, I think

558
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 3: absolutely it does.

559
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 2: Like you prey on a family that does not have resources,

560
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 2: that is very distracted, would not be thinking, hey, what's

561
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 2: going on? Like people who have been through things themselves,

562
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 2: and then you apply them with gifts you do like

563
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 2: I don't know what he did with that grooming. I

564
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 2: cannot say, like, I do not know that from my reporting,

565
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 2: but I would feel safe saying that, like you're buying

566
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 2: little gifts, you're doing stuff. You also work here, there's

567
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 2: a no fraternization policy, or being kind of that in

568
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 2: and of itself is inappropriate, Like yeah, I think.

569
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 3: It's safe to say, Okay, so she's seen on surveillance,

570
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 3: but nobody knows where she is. I guess we get

571
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 3: into where the heck has this kid been? And part

572
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 3: of the podcast that you have, especially the trailer, is

573
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 3: it's like your granddaughter's missing. No, she's not, she's at

574
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 3: ex's house. And then you go to X, did you

575
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 3: know your niece is missing? No, No, she's not, she's

576
00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 3: at this place. Is that kind of what happened?

577
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 2: That's exactly like the example I give y'all have seen

578
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 2: home alone, like you know what it's like chaos? Oh

579
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 2: so and so is over there. No, they're over here,

580
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 2: like wires get cross. That is a lot of what happened.

581
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 2: Like if Grandma thinks she's at Auntie's house, if Aunties

582
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 2: thinks she's at you know, Grandma's house, they're not necessarily

583
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 2: gonna question each other and be like, oh where is she?

584
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 2: Versus like, oh, she's with this man?

585
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: Where is she?

586
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 3: Why did Relicio's family not move in with any of

587
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 3: these people who she trusted enough to take Relicia for,

588
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 3: you know, overnight visits and stuff. Was it just none

589
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 3: of space at these houses the grandmother and the aunt

590
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 3: and these people.

591
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it comes down to space, especially when

592
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 2: there are children involved. There's a certain amount of bedrooms,

593
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 2: a certain amount of square footage, like what are the

594
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 2: gender of the kids by x amount of age?

595
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 1: They should not be sharing rooms.

596
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 2: It was just I think leaving Licia with Tatum felt

597
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 2: like the easier option for everybody involved, more convenient.

598
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 3: Okay, you said that she had so I just remember

599
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 3: you saying this. She had some health issues that doctor

600
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 3: Tatum was writing notes for.

601
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 1: What were the health issues. I'm not exactly sure.

602
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 2: I know her little brother had asthma, it might have

603
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,719
Speaker 2: been something similar. And it's really interesting because children in

604
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 2: low income families, children who are like in apartments where

605
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 2: there are mole where there's mold stuff like that, they're

606
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 2: more likely to develop asthma. So I wouldn't be surprised

607
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 2: if that was part of it. Also, like her brother

608
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 2: was often sick too, so they were preoccupied with that

609
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 2: as well, because.

610
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 1: He had asthma. But I believe it was some respiratory

611
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 1: stuff but.

612
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 3: It wasn't not that you wouldn't need an inhaler or

613
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 3: anything for that, but it wasn't like she's diabetic and

614
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 3: she needs to have a shot or she's going to die.

615
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 1: No, Okay, that's what I was wondering.

616
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 3: Okay, so she vanishes and then there's this eighteen day period.

617
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 3: Tell me kind of what happens with the family. Who's

618
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 3: the first one I would assume it's her mom is

619
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 3: the first one who makes the call to family members saying, hey,

620
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 3: I haven't seen her Relicia, do you know where she is?

621
00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 1: Or no?

622
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 2: Well, once the police get involved, that's sort of when

623
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 2: the phone calls to family happened where it's like, hey,

624
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 2: she's with you, right, and it's like, no, she's with

625
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 2: so and so. And that's when sort of the game

626
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 2: of telephone happens. Before those eighteen days, I think Shamikha

627
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 2: was thinking she's with Tatum, She's fine, wow.

628
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 1: For that long. She was okay with her taking her

629
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 1: for that long? Wow?

630
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, And has had that happen before? I mean, had

631
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 3: they gone away for a week or something.

632
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 2: I mean they've gone out of town before, like they'd

633
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:27,479
Speaker 2: been like, oh, we're going to go to the amusement

634
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 2: park and he had a granddaughter and they would like

635
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 2: play together, like it was like oh yeah, like bring

636
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 2: your swimsuit, we're gonna go to the pool.

637
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 1: Like it was they were like, yeah, that's his goddaughter.

638
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 3: And then the social worker shows up and says, truancy

639
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 3: for ten days? What's going on with Relitia? And that's

640
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 3: when is that And that's when you said it all

641
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 3: unraveled right where it was like, oh, I think he's

642
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 3: with this guy with Khalil and his wife and the

643
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 3: social worker gets alarmed and that's where DC police get involved.

644
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean because he said, hey, where's doctor Tatum

645
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 2: and the fact that they were like, they're there's no

646
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 2: doctor Tatum, there's a janitor Tatum. That was when it

647
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 2: was like, something is not right, something is wrong.

648
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 3: What is Shamika's reaction? She's like no, no, no, and

649
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 3: then she starts making the phone calls.

650
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 1: Is that right? Yeah? I think initially she was like

651
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: she's with Tatum, She's fine, Like what do you mean?

652
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 2: And I think after a while that's when it starts

653
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 2: to hit her like, hey, this is much bigger than

654
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 2: we realized.

655
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 3: And I'm assuming he's not picking up. Khalil is not

656
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 3: picking up.

657
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 2: And I will say on April first, Khalil Tatum was

658
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 2: found dead from a self inflicted gunshot wound in a

659
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 2: shed near Kenilworth Park and it was from the same

660
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 2: gun that shot his wife.

661
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 3: Aside from Khalil and his wife, how many other possibilities

662
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 3: do you think were there for Relicia to go and

663
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 3: stay with different people? Are we talking about just a

664
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,719
Speaker 3: couple her aunt and her her grandmother or is it

665
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 3: a bigger one.

666
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 2: She had cousins, aunts and uncles, but as far as

667
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 2: closeness goes, her grandmother and her aunt were the main ones,

668
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 2: especially since you know Antonio's family, like wasn't her biological family,

669
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 2: and her mom was very like, this is my daughter,

670
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 2: so like, yes, there was community, but like not that

671
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 2: much available. I'm not certain what relicious father was up

672
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 2: to at the time, but not.

673
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 1: A whole whole lot of options. Okay, her biological father,

674
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 1: her biological father, was he in the picture. I mean

675
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 1: I think he.

676
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 2: Would be like say hello, but they weren't together, so

677
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 2: I think sometimes you know, when relationships fall apart, relationships

678
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,319
Speaker 2: with kids can fall apart two a lot of the time.

679
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 3: So the police do what they find out that the

680
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 3: only option is that Relicia is with Khalil and his wife,

681
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 3: and they try to get a hold of him. And

682
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 3: you know, this is about what March you said about.

683
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 3: March eighteenth is when they start sounding the arms. March nineteenth.

684
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 2: Yes, on March nineteenth, that's when they realize, Okay, something

685
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 2: isn't right. And it's on the twentieth that the police

686
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 2: go public. I spoke with a reporter who was covering

687
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 2: it at the time, and you know, whenever there's a

688
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,240
Speaker 2: major police presence, if you're a reporter, they're text messages.

689
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,799
Speaker 2: They are like, hey, what's going on here? What's going on?

690
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 2: Jackie Benson? And she said when she heard that DC police,

691
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 2: we're at a red roof inn in PG County. That's

692
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 2: when her antenna went up and was like, wait, why

693
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:23,879
Speaker 2: are they over there?

694
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 1: That's not their jurisdiction.

695
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:29,839
Speaker 3: So we're starting at March twentieth, and they've seen her

696
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 3: at how many different on video? How many different places

697
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 3: have they seen her? A couple different hotels.

698
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 2: Two two different hotels, a holiday inn, and a Day's

699
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 2: in that's right across the street from it.

700
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,799
Speaker 3: Okay, and are they all together? Is it the three

701
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:48,720
Speaker 3: of them together? So she's only seen with Tatum on camera?

702
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,399
Speaker 2: Okay, we don't see his wife on camera, at least

703
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 2: not in the publicly available video.

704
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 1: Did her family Undrea?

705
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,399
Speaker 3: His family say, well, they've got to be together because

706
00:35:58,400 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 3: we can't get a hold of her either.

707
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 1: I think so.

708
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 2: And like she said, Andrea's daughter was saying that. Initially

709
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 2: her mom was like, oh, we're staying in a hotel.

710
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 2: The heat is broken. Her mother's an emic and you

711
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:11,959
Speaker 2: know she would get cold, so it was like, okay,

712
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 2: we're going to stay in a hotel. It's a little

713
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,399
Speaker 2: chili still, the heat is broken. So they were at

714
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 2: the hotel. She said it was weird. She could not

715
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 2: get a hold of her mom and she's like, that's weird.

716
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 2: I talked to my mom all the time.

717
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 3: Were they able to trace with GPS? Is that what

718
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,240
Speaker 3: they were doing? How were they figuring out what hotel?

719
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 3: The last hotel they were at was that. I'm not sure.

720
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 3: I'm not sure how they tracked them down.

721
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,479
Speaker 2: It could have been a tip, surveillance, GPS, all types

722
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 2: of ways, but they did find them there at that

723
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 2: red roof in What.

724
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 3: Was Shamika doing at the time in Antonio now? I

725
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:48,360
Speaker 3: mean were they were they looking or was she falling apart?

726
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 1: Or what ends up? What's the way that they process

727
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: what happened.

728
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:57,279
Speaker 2: It's so interesting because the disappearance has also led to

729
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,839
Speaker 2: different fallouts of the family at different times. There were

730
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 2: times where Shamika and her mother are speaking when they're not,

731
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 2: when Antonio and Shimika are speaking when they're not, when

732
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 2: Antonio is speaking with a grandmother when they're not, Just

733
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,319
Speaker 2: a lot of different fallout. The thing that I think

734
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 2: that's interesting about Shamika, I think people have been very

735
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 2: judgmental when it comes to her, and I get where

736
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 2: that comes from, because I know when I played my

737
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,799
Speaker 2: mom the Pilot, her first thing was like, as a mother,

738
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 2: how could you not know where your kid is?

739
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 3: Like?

740
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 1: How could you not do X Y Z?

741
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 2: But the more I learned about Shamika, the more I

742
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:37,799
Speaker 2: learned about her upbringing, the more I realized, Oh, there's

743
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 2: a cycle that's kind of repeating here eventually, because at

744
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 2: first she was like, Khalil didn't do it, and she

745
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:48,240
Speaker 2: she has said that, and then you know, she comes

746
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,879
Speaker 2: around and goes back, comes around, goes back. I think

747
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,320
Speaker 2: Antonio has had like the strongest and most typical reaction

748
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:57,479
Speaker 2: where it's a lot of grief, because I think he's

749
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:00,920
Speaker 2: grieving both Relicia and the fan that he wanted and

750
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:04,839
Speaker 2: kind of wanting the chance to break kind of the

751
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 2: cycle he was living in. You know, his his family,

752
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 2: his kids were taken away. Oh wow, after all of this,

753
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:15,399
Speaker 2: and he was taken away from his family when something

754
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:16,240
Speaker 2: similar happened.

755
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 1: Why why did that happen? They just determined you're unfit.

756
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 2: You'll let this little girl go for eighteen days, got

757
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 2: to take the boys. And I think that's been really

758
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:26,799
Speaker 2: really hard for him.

759
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:28,240
Speaker 1: Oh that's awful.

760
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 3: Okay, and I do think about that too, you know,

761
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 3: when people get online hate and even though their story

762
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 3: is explained, and you know, your people are figuring out

763
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 3: how much empathy you deserve. Yeah, and particularly women, you know,

764
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:42,799
Speaker 3: women get the brunt of it too.

765
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 2: I mean, oh yeah, And I mean I get the

766
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:47,280
Speaker 2: knee jerk reaction to be like, how could this happen?

767
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 1: What do you mean?

768
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,359
Speaker 2: But I think taking a peek behind the curtain and

769
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 2: knowing the resources people have and.

770
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,759
Speaker 1: Don't have, it was very illuminating for me. You know.

771
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 3: I hope that this is a world a lot of

772
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 3: our listeners, yours and mine, don't have to ever enter,

773
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 3: but oh god, I hope not.

774
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 1: I think.

775
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 3: I think when you learn more about it, it doesn't

776
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 3: have to be sympathy or even empathy or anything like that,

777
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,319
Speaker 3: but just sort of it's not black and white.

778
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 1: I mean, you know that the reason.

779
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:18,840
Speaker 3: I'm sure she did not want this to happen to

780
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 3: her child, But you know, at the same time, it

781
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:23,920
Speaker 3: does show so many failings on so many different levels.

782
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 2: So yeah. There's a really great write up about Shamika

783
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 2: and her childhood in the Washington Post that came out

784
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 2: around the time, and reading it and also talking with

785
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 2: her family. There are times where I'm like, oh my god,

786
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 2: like did she ever really get a chance? Yeah, And

787
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:40,759
Speaker 2: I think that's the heartbreaking part. It's like did she

788
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 2: ever have a chance.

789
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 3: So it sounds like the bottom line with this is that, well,

790
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 3: I guess, take me through what happened. So the police,

791
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:52,359
Speaker 3: everybody is all forces starting probably about March twentieth, and

792
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:55,080
Speaker 3: we know that Khalil is found, the last one to

793
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 3: be found, and he's got a self inflicted gunshot wound

794
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 3: on April first. Okay, so you've got ten days basically

795
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:05,240
Speaker 3: until he's discovered. Is there any understanding of what happened

796
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 3: over those ten days aside from I know you said

797
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:09,839
Speaker 3: that Khalil was caught on camera getting.

798
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 1: Large trash bags.

799
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 2: I think people fall into two camps either like she

800
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:19,240
Speaker 2: is no longer with us, he killed her, or maybe

801
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 2: some sort of trafficking. And part of me like, really

802
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:24,879
Speaker 2: hope she's still out there. You know she would be

803
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 2: oh gosh, she would be maybe a senior, if not graduated.

804
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 1: Maybe you know, she hangs out with her friends.

805
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 2: And I think it's one of those things where like

806
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:37,799
Speaker 2: this may truly be unsolved, And I think one of

807
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:39,880
Speaker 2: the things that also hits me hard about it, and

808
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 2: this is sort of the crux of what we base

809
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 2: the podcast on. But you know, Khalil Tatum has found

810
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 2: dead April first. On April eighth, the mayor at the

811
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:52,799
Speaker 2: time of Vincent Gray, ordered a report into the investigation

812
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 2: of the city's responsibility when it comes to religious disappearance.

813
00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 2: And you know, her family was touched by a lot

814
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 2: of social services, Like her mother was in contact with

815
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:04,759
Speaker 2: the Department of Behavioral Health, she was in DC public schools,

816
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 2: she's with homeless services. And I think the part that

817
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 2: really gets me is that September of that same year,

818
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 2: September second, the preface of the report read that quote,

819
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:17,400
Speaker 2: the review team did not find evidence that these tragic

820
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:23,240
Speaker 2: events were preventable. The idea of something like this being

821
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 2: unpreventable does not sit well with me. I think we

822
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 2: can absolutely like there, we can definitely create a world

823
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 2: where there are no more relishes, where this doesn't happen

824
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 2: have to happen to little girls.

825
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 1: You're right.

826
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 3: I mean, there were so many social services around her

827
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 3: that it sounded like we're really failing. And we talk

828
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 3: about that with the foster care system too. You know

829
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 3: when things happen, and it's just sad to think it

830
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 3: takes these kinds of stories for people to understand, you know,

831
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 3: what happens sometimes when they are vulnerable, people who become

832
00:41:56,239 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 3: even more vulnerable. And so Andrea you said, had been killed.

833
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:03,480
Speaker 3: They found her at the inn is that right? The

834
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:07,719
Speaker 3: Red roof in in PG County, Maryland, and it clearly

835
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 3: she had been shot, but not as suicide. No, is

836
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:14,880
Speaker 3: there evidence that Relicia was at that hotel?

837
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 1: I don't think so. No.

838
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,399
Speaker 2: I don't think they saw her at the Red roof In. No,

839
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:21,439
Speaker 2: they wouldn't have because that was she was last seeding

840
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 2: March first, and that was later.

841
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 3: But does Shamika remember when they actually said goodbye, we'll

842
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 3: see you in a couple of weeks.

843
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:32,760
Speaker 1: That's in February, right, yeah, that's February. Yeah. Wow.

844
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,840
Speaker 3: Okay, So there are you talked about? There were some

845
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 3: images of what was it wetlands or something that Kenilworth

846
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 3: Garden tell me how all of that came out. So

847
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:47,240
Speaker 3: they find these people dead and Relicia is nowhere around.

848
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,800
Speaker 3: What do the DC police or Maryland whoever is involved

849
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 3: with us at this point, what do they do next?

850
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 1: To try to figure out where she is. The thing is,

851
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 1: the case is still open. They have not closed this case.

852
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 2: They're still a know how active they're looking, but the

853
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 2: case is still open.

854
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 1: So they find these two people dead. Where do you

855
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:05,800
Speaker 1: go from there?

856
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 3: Where the two people who would know where she is,

857
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,240
Speaker 3: you know, are gone and you can't question Them'm assuming

858
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 3: there's no notes or any kind of clues.

859
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean I think that's also part of it,

860
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 2: like the lack of the lack of answers. And that's

861
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 2: when you sort of start to see you know, I

862
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:24,560
Speaker 2: mean we see this with every case. Internet suits, psychics,

863
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 2: Reddit gets in there, Like that's around the time we

864
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:31,440
Speaker 2: start to see people like saying, okay, like where is she?

865
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:32,759
Speaker 1: What's going on?

866
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 2: But yeah, that's and that's also like the tragedy what

867
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:38,760
Speaker 2: happened to Relicia died with Khalil Tatum?

868
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:41,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, do they end up finding anything? You don't know

869
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 3: about his cell phone or anything like that? I mean

870
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:46,080
Speaker 3: I can't imagine they wouldn't be able to trace something

871
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 3: his car anywhere, GPS anything.

872
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's all Kennilworth gardens.

873
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 2: So the kennel Worth gardens there, that's the tragic part too,

874
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 2: is this beautiful like aquatic part of the National Arboretum.

875
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 2: So these beautiful trees, all these paths, things like that,

876
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 2: and you know this didn't make it in the podcast,

877
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,800
Speaker 2: but there is a day where we go we retrace

878
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 2: the steps. But I'm telling you people combed every inch

879
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 2: of those gardens and found nothing.

880
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 1: That was because of his phone that took you guys there.

881
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 1: It was either his phone or a tip. There might

882
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 1: have been a tip of some kind. Was that somebody

883
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 1: seeing him dig up something?

884
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 2: I think people just seeing him around, like like he

885
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 2: was seen buying the trash bags and the lime and everything.

886
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 3: Okay, so then you know they did they do any

887
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 3: dragging anywhere, like if she were in a lake or

888
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 3: if there's a water source.

889
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 2: All of that, like police like searched by water like

890
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 2: it was, people were on foot, there were volunteers, like

891
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 2: they went all through those gardens.

892
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 1: How and you might know the answer to this.

893
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 3: And now I'm curious what would they do to be

894
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 3: able to figure out if she ended up, god forbid,

895
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:04,839
Speaker 3: in sex trafficking or something. Is that a DNA you know,

896
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 3: a piece of her DNA? And if she is arrested

897
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 3: or found or somebody in her family had uploaded, you know,

898
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 3: a DNA to a genealogy site. You know, is there

899
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 3: anything that's helpful that would flag something for either law

900
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 3: enforcement or someone that she is actually alive at all.

901
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think the biggest thing is it's not even DNA,

902
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 2: it's the time progressed pictures. Like every year there is

903
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:35,400
Speaker 2: a new time progressed photo of militia, and every year

904
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:37,839
Speaker 2: there is a vigil where people go out and they

905
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 2: pass the photo around and they post it and media

906
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 2: comes out and we do stories about it, like it

907
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 2: is a very active, active thing.

908
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 1: Have you hooked up with the women who I interviewed

909
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:52,879
Speaker 1: at Black and Missing? Oh yeah, they were a major part.

910
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:56,960
Speaker 2: They were unbelievably helpful as we reported the story. And

911
00:45:57,000 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 2: also they're so good on giving the context of where this.

912
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 2: Like I said before, relicious story is kind of different

913
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 2: than a lot of stories we hear because she did

914
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 2: get attention and that doesn't happen. And I think you

915
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:15,480
Speaker 2: can mark how well a society is doing by how

916
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:18,839
Speaker 2: the most marginalized people within that society are treated, and

917
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:21,319
Speaker 2: I think Relicia kind of sits at that intersection of

918
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 2: like she is black, she is a little girl, she

919
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 2: is a child, and those are three groups of people

920
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 2: that we do not necessarily treat the best. Yeah, I

921
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 2: think it's sort of like a if you want to

922
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:33,800
Speaker 2: know how a society is doing, look at the people

923
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:37,280
Speaker 2: who are most marginalized. But yeah, they were absolutely amazing

924
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 2: and they were there. They were like on the ground

925
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:43,839
Speaker 2: part of that search when Relicia first went missing. They

926
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:45,480
Speaker 2: were out there with the police, out there with the

927
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:48,560
Speaker 2: volunteers looking through Kenilworth aquatic gardens.

928
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 3: What is the theory about what happened as far as

929
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 3: why you know Tatum and his wife would have taken

930
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:01,319
Speaker 3: her to begin with, as in sexual or wanting to

931
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 3: just co opt her as their daughter. I felt like

932
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:07,080
Speaker 3: it's somewhat unusual to have a couple doing.

933
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 2: This from what the reporting I've done in people I've

934
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:11,759
Speaker 2: talked with, like Andrea was kind of like in the

935
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:16,440
Speaker 2: dark pretty much like it. Mainly like Khalil, Tatum was

936
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:20,240
Speaker 2: the one who forged this relationship with this family. I

937
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:23,319
Speaker 2: don't know, but a lot of people are like, this

938
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 2: is a man who like grooms people. It was not

939
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 2: a good situation. Now what that means again, I do

940
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:31,680
Speaker 2: not know. That's that's the reporter in me who's like, well,

941
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 2: I gotta like get for certain and get on records,

942
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:35,879
Speaker 2: so I don't have that.

943
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:39,320
Speaker 1: But yeah, it was not a great situation.

944
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:42,360
Speaker 2: And I also think part of like what led to

945
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:45,360
Speaker 2: Andrea's death and his death was like, oh, people know

946
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:50,799
Speaker 2: something is up now, and like panic ensues, okay, and

947
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:52,760
Speaker 2: decisions are made now.

948
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:57,000
Speaker 3: The family members that you spoke with, how were they grieving?

949
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 3: Are Is there hope that she's still alive or is it?

950
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:02,720
Speaker 3: It's sort of like a feeling that all the evidence

951
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:05,759
Speaker 3: points to her not being alive, and then you have

952
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 3: to think about how do you grieve when there's no

953
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:09,440
Speaker 3: body and there's still uncertainty.

954
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:11,799
Speaker 2: I think there is a level of hope from some

955
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 2: Her grandmother, in fact, during an interview, she uses the

956
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 2: past tense and catches herself and starts using the present tense. Also,

957
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:25,359
Speaker 2: she has a trunk with Birthday and Christmas gifts she's

958
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 2: gotten for Relicia every year because she's like, oh, when

959
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 2: she comes home, she's gonna want to come home to gifts.

960
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 2: And you know, it started with dolls and things like that,

961
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 2: but as she got older, she's like, oh, I got

962
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 2: her like earrings. I got her body spray because you know,

963
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 2: teenagers like to smell good. I think that's her own

964
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:44,399
Speaker 2: way of coping. I don't know that we will ever

965
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:46,840
Speaker 2: find out what happened to Relicia. There's a part of

966
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:49,880
Speaker 2: me that really hopes so, but I think, yeah, I

967
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:52,759
Speaker 2: think her family goes back and forth to between she's

968
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:55,400
Speaker 2: not coming home and like, well, maybe she will walk

969
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:56,319
Speaker 2: through the door one day.

970
00:48:56,360 --> 00:49:00,600
Speaker 1: You hear stories of that sometimes. What about Shamika and Antonio.

971
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:01,960
Speaker 1: I mean we hear about Antonio.

972
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 3: He lost his two sons because of this, so there's

973
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 3: that fallout. I'm assuming they're not together anymore.

974
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:09,359
Speaker 1: Oh, no, they are.

975
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:12,040
Speaker 2: They are no longer together. I think the case really

976
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:15,040
Speaker 2: broke them like that. It really it split that family up.

977
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:18,600
Speaker 2: I think Antonio's focus now is his family. I need

978
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 2: to check in with him. But last I heard like

979
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:23,880
Speaker 2: he was making headway with getting one of his sons

980
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 2: back and living near him, and that's kind of like

981
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:31,799
Speaker 2: what he's been really focusing on. I think they both

982
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 2: hold out hope. Shamikha I was not able to get

983
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 2: on the record on the phone. You know, lots of calls.

984
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:40,600
Speaker 2: In fact, if she's hit me up today, I'd be like, Yeah,

985
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 2: let's sit down, let's talk, let's do an interview. But

986
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 2: she doesn't really talk to the press, which I do understand.

987
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:51,759
Speaker 2: You know, there was this episode that she, Antonio, and

988
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 2: her mother were on on The Steve Wilco Show, and

989
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:57,120
Speaker 2: it just it very much feels like a circus, for

990
00:49:57,239 --> 00:49:58,400
Speaker 2: lack of a better term.

991
00:49:58,560 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 1: Like what in fighting? Ye?

992
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:01,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's this salacious feel. It's like are you going

993
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:04,800
Speaker 2: to take a lie detector test? It's the family arguing

994
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:06,440
Speaker 2: with each other in front of a crowd while a

995
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 2: crowd like.

996
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:08,680
Speaker 1: Jeers or cheers them on.

997
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:12,399
Speaker 2: Really yeah, Honestly, if I had experience like that would

998
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:13,239
Speaker 2: be I would not.

999
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 1: I would not either. Why did they do that that I.

1000
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 2: Don't know, but I think they were like, yeah, come

1001
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 2: do the show. They're like okay, And you know, after that,

1002
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 2: they talked to the media a lot less. And that

1003
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:28,360
Speaker 2: was until it came through that the podcast was actually

1004
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:31,000
Speaker 2: going to happen. I really hesitated with reaching out to

1005
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 2: Relicious family because I did not want to start that

1006
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 2: process if it was not going to happen. What's wild is,

1007
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 2: I messaged Antonio on Facebook. That's how I got in

1008
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 2: contact with him, and I was like, Hey, I'm working

1009
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:45,440
Speaker 2: on this podcast, like I want to hear your story,

1010
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 2: and his response was, I've been waiting for someone to

1011
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 2: call me. I've been waiting to tell this story, and

1012
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:55,759
Speaker 2: I don't know. I feel very fortunate when people open

1013
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:59,279
Speaker 2: up to me, and so every time anyone opens up

1014
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:03,040
Speaker 2: to me, especially bout something so traumatic, I feel very

1015
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:15,160
Speaker 2: grateful that they trust me with their story.

1016
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:20,320
Speaker 3: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

1017
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:23,239
Speaker 3: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That

1018
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 3: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and Don't Forget. There are

1019
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:30,440
Speaker 3: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast Tenfold More

1020
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 3: Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and

1021
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:36,920
Speaker 3: give them a listen if you haven't already. This has

1022
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:40,880
Speaker 3: been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis M.

1023
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:43,600
Speaker 1: Morosi. Our associate producer.

1024
00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:47,520
Speaker 3: Is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

1025
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:51,759
Speaker 3: Curtis heath Is our composer, artwork by Nick Toga. Executive

1026
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:56,280
Speaker 3: produced by Georgia Hartstark, Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Listen

1027
00:51:56,320 --> 00:52:00,320
Speaker 3: to Wicked Words on the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts, or

1028
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:04,400
Speaker 3: wherever you get your podcasts. Follow wicked Words on Instagram

1029
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:08,320
Speaker 3: at tenfold More Wicked, and on Facebook at wicked words

1030
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:08,720
Speaker 3: pod