WEBVTT - How to Tell When Someone Is Lying 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:06.519 You're listening to Part Time Genius, the production of Kaleidoscope 0:00:06.640 --> 0:00:07.640 and iHeartRadio. 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:12.440 Guess what, Mango? 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:13.280 What's that will? 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:15.440 So I came across this study, and you know I 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:19.240 love a good study, Mango, But this was from researchers 0:00:19.280 --> 0:00:22.200 at the University of Wisconsin Lacrosse, and you know I 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:25.840 love University of Wisconsin Lacrosse. And this is a pretty 0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:28.400 weird one. So here's what they did. They asked six 0:00:28.560 --> 0:00:32.920 hundred and thirty two people to document every single lie 0:00:33.000 --> 0:00:35.479 they told over the course of three months. 0:00:35.960 --> 0:00:37.040 That is incredible. 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:40.159 So what they find out, well, among other things, they 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:43.279 discovered that the number one reason people lied was to 0:00:43.360 --> 0:00:46.159 avoid others. Oh, I mean that kind of makes sense 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:48.520 to me, Yeah, it does. And the second most common 0:00:48.560 --> 0:00:51.800 reason people lied was for jokes or pranks, which also makes. 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:54.600 Sense, like the time you told me the CEO of 0:00:54.640 --> 0:00:56.520 Vegemite was a huge fan of the show and wanted 0:00:56.520 --> 0:00:58.880 to send us a lifetime supply of vegemite. 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:01.960 That is, that's a good example of a lie, yep. 0:01:02.360 --> 0:01:06.240 But from what you're describing, these are fairly like harmless lies, right, 0:01:06.280 --> 0:01:10.039 So is a lesson that lying isn't necessarily so bad. 0:01:10.680 --> 0:01:12.960 I do like that that's your conclusion. I mean, the 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:17.000 lesson isn't quite that simple. Like, It's a highly complex 0:01:17.080 --> 0:01:20.400 form of social interaction that can serve many different purposes, 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:23.360 and so lies can range from lighthearted and funny to 0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:27.640 of course malicious to downright dangerous, depending on the intention 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:31.280 behind them and the cultural context too. So people have 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:34.720 been trying to understand lying for thousands of years, and 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:38.160 it definitely merits more research or at least a podcast episode, 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:38.880 I'd say. 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:41.520 So, will I do have something to confess? 0:01:42.400 --> 0:01:43.520 Okay, I'm nervous. 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:46.920 I read that University of Wisconsin the study last week, 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:49.040 and I just pretended I didn't know about it, so 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:50.480 this show would sound better. 0:01:51.360 --> 0:01:54.400 Oh man, well, you know what I actually was lying too, 0:01:54.480 --> 0:01:56.600 because I knew that you had read the University of 0:01:56.600 --> 0:01:59.240 Wisconsin study and I pretended that I didn't. So it's 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:03.240 just like this to an interesting start. But actually it's 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:05.400 the perfect way to kick off an episode about lying. 0:02:05.760 --> 0:02:08.000 There is a whole lot to talk about, and I 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:10.639 guarantee from this point forward we will be one hundred 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:11.799 percent truthful. 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:29.200 So let's dive in. 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:36.680 Hey there, podcast listeners, welcome to part time genius. I'm 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:38.960 Will Pearson, and as always, I'm joined by my good 0:02:38.960 --> 0:02:41.639 friend Mangesh hot ticketter and over there in the booth 0:02:42.000 --> 0:02:45.560 waving a red hot poker, that's our pal and producer 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:48.200 Dylan fig and he's actually waving it pretty aggressively. I'm 0:02:48.200 --> 0:02:50.480 not really sure what he's doing, but it looks a 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:52.600 little bit dangerous. If I'm being honest, I. 0:02:52.480 --> 0:02:54.760 Am glad that he's wearing oven mits at least, But 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:57.160 believe it or not, I think I know what he's 0:02:57.200 --> 0:02:59.800 trying to demonstrate it. So, okay. Back in the Middle 0:02:59.840 --> 0:03:04.200 eight lying was considered a terrible sin, and people, specifically 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:06.560 Christian people, believe that the only way to know if 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:09.480 someone was lying was by testing them with a trial 0:03:09.600 --> 0:03:12.799 by ordeal. So, in other words, the accused was put 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:15.320 through a physical challenge, and, according to the logic at 0:03:15.360 --> 0:03:18.680 the time, if they were honest, God would prevent them 0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:21.720 from getting hurt. Now, one of the ordeals was touching 0:03:21.760 --> 0:03:24.200 the person's tongue to a red hot poker. Obviously, this 0:03:24.280 --> 0:03:27.360 resulted in a lot of burnt tongues, which was seen 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:28.960 as proof of dishonesty. 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:32.640 Yikes. All right, well, thank you Dylan for that terrifying visual. 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:35.680 It is not common that we see Dylan looking terrifying 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:38.000 as one of the nicest humans on the planet. But 0:03:38.080 --> 0:03:40.480 good job there, Dylan. All right, So Mengo, it sounds 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:43.160 like people took lying very seriously back then. 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:47.080 They definitely did so. Other trials by ordeal included walking 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:51.119 over burning coals and being forced to swallow poison. And 0:03:51.320 --> 0:03:53.920 if you're thinking, wow, that seems kind of extreme, this 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:57.200 actually all traces back to Saint Augustine. He wrote a 0:03:57.200 --> 0:04:02.000 famous treatise on lying called Online and Augustine argued that 0:04:02.080 --> 0:04:05.520 lying is like a disease. It supposedly like destroys your 0:04:05.560 --> 0:04:09.280 integrity and puts you in direct opposition to God. He's 0:04:09.360 --> 0:04:11.119 also the guy who came up with the idea that 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:14.000 if you always tell the truth, God will actually swoop 0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:17.239 in to protect you from the harm. But medieval Europe 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:19.600 didn't invent the idea of testing for truth. They just 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:22.279 kind of took it to this new, more brutal level. 0:04:22.839 --> 0:04:26.000 In ancient China, accused liars had to chew a mouthful 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:29.560 of dry rice while someone recited the accusations against them, 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:32.039 and then they'd spit the rice out, and if it 0:04:32.160 --> 0:04:34.520 seemed too dry when they spit it out because of 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:38.080 their dry mouth from nervousness. Then that was considered proof 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:38.880 that they had lied. 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:42.359 What a weird way to like test if somebody's lying. 0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:45.880 Yeah, these early lie detectors were very, very ineffective, but 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:52.880 I guess it shows that concern about lying is practically universal. 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Or you can 0:07:22.560 --> 0:07:25.840 find the link in the podcast episode description. So if 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:29.120 you want to not get HACKEDTCH lots of sports and 0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:37.200 do it on multiple devices, nordvpns for you. There's actually 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:40.960 this ancient Hindu text, the yard Javeda, and it dates 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:43.840 back to one thousand BCE and it has tips for 0:07:43.960 --> 0:07:47.520 royalty who are worried that their servants are undercover mercenaries 0:07:47.880 --> 0:07:51.440 lying about their allegiance. So it says, quote, a person 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:54.600 who intends to poison food may be recognized. He does 0:07:54.640 --> 0:07:58.800 not answer questions, or they are evasive answers. He speaks nonsense, 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:02.080 rubs the great toe along the ground and shivers. His 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:05.040 face is discolored. He rubs the roots of his hair 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:07.800 with his fingers, and he tries by every means to 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:08.720 leave the house. 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:11.520 It kind of feels like they would not be very 0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:13.600 good mercenaries if they're doing all that stuff. 0:08:13.640 --> 0:08:16.480 I know. But this gets to something really interesting, which 0:08:16.520 --> 0:08:20.200 is that throughout history people have believed that observing someone's 0:08:20.240 --> 0:08:23.840 nonverbal behaviors, like their cues of things like fidgeting or 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:26.840 rubbing their nose, that's an easy way to tell if 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:29.640 they're lying. So you don't really need the hot pokers 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:31.920 or the vials of poison, I guess. 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:35.040 And that's basically the idea behind lie detectors looking for 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:36.040 those sorts of clues. 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:40.240 Right, yeah, So modern light detectors or polygraphs were invented 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:42.959 in the early nineteen hundreds, but some of the technology 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:46.200 they use was developed in the eighteen hundreds, and all 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:49.199 they really do is measure changes in certain vital signs, 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:53.880 including things like blood pressure, breathing, perspiration. And although they're 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:57.520 still used by law enforcement and government agencies, they're widely 0:08:57.559 --> 0:09:01.520 considered a pseudoscience. And that's because the physiological changes they 0:09:01.559 --> 0:09:03.520 measure it can be triggered by lots of things like 0:09:03.640 --> 0:09:05.439 not just the stress of lying. 0:09:05.559 --> 0:09:07.720 Well you think about it, like the fear of being arrested, 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:09.400 or stressed from being interrogated. 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:11.920 Right. In fact, the ACLU has opposed the use of 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:15.080 polygraph machines for decades, saying they don't work and they're 0:09:15.080 --> 0:09:18.200 a violation of people's privacy rights. And remember, the machine 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:21.559 itself doesn't offer any conclusions. It just kind of records 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:23.719 this data for people. But this is the part I 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:27.679 didn't realize. It's that a human polygraph examiner actually has 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:30.600 to interpret that data to decide what it means, Like 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:33.400 is that a normal spike in sweating because the room 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:36.320 is hot, or does it indicate a lie? Which means 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:38.880 the results of a polygraph test can actually be tainted 0:09:38.920 --> 0:09:41.079 by human bias, I. 0:09:41.040 --> 0:09:44.720 Mean, like crazy bias. It does feel like it's just 0:09:44.760 --> 0:09:47.160 so weird that in the twenty first century we're still 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:51.199 using what seems like the same light detection concepts ancient people, 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:53.719 that we just exchanged the dry rice for some sort 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:57.240 of fancy machine. I guess, yeah, pretty much. All right, Well, 0:09:57.280 --> 0:09:59.839 you know, regardless of what goes on physically, telling a 0:09:59.840 --> 0:10:03.439 lot does require a whole bunch of complicated brain activity. 0:10:03.559 --> 0:10:05.720 Like first you have to come up with the lie 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:09.320 and mentally detach yourself from the truth. Then you have 0:10:09.360 --> 0:10:12.120 to choose your words and behaviors carefully. Is to sell 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:15.640 the lie and avoid suspicion. And that requires understanding what 0:10:15.720 --> 0:10:19.200 your audience knows now and then making guesses about what 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:22.559 they might discover later. Then you have to process the 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:25.280 response to the initial lie and spin out mora lies 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:28.160 is you need to back yourself up. The scientific term 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:30.760 for all of this is called cognitive load. 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:33.720 That is so funny, like it feels like lying comes 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:36.680 so naturally at this point and you need to write, 0:10:36.720 --> 0:10:39.440 but like it sounds exhausting when you put it that way. 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:42.079 So does this mean like there's a specific area of 0:10:42.080 --> 0:10:44.600 the brain that controls our ability to lie? 0:10:45.679 --> 0:10:48.439 You know, Actually it's the opposite of this, because there's 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:51.920 this heavy cognitive load. Lying involves multiple areas of the 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:55.240 brain really working together. So these are areas responsible for 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:59.160 critical stuff like self awareness and social cognition. And one 0:10:59.160 --> 0:11:00.880 thing that really fast sates me is the fact that 0:11:00.960 --> 0:11:04.720 lyne can actually change our memories. That's because memories aren't 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:07.040 set in stone, and so the way we remember something 0:11:07.080 --> 0:11:09.880 can be distorted over time, and if a lie is 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:13.360 repeated often enough the truth is then suppressed. It can 0:11:13.360 --> 0:11:15.319 actually distort our memory of an event. 0:11:16.160 --> 0:11:18.960 It also explains a lot about history and also like 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:20.120 collective memories. 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:21.400 Right, it really does. 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:21.720 Yeah. 0:11:21.760 --> 0:11:23.680 I mean you might be wondering how and when do 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:26.760 we develop the ability to lie? And it turns out 0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:29.600 there's a whole body of research about little kids and lying, 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:31.560 and we're going to chat more about all of that 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:43.960 right after a quick break. 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:49.920 Okay, Well, so I know you've done a ton of 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:52.440 research about kids' brains and how they developed the ability 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:55.319 to lie. But first I have to ask, like, did 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:57.560 you tell lies when you were a kid or you know, 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:01.000 can you remember what your kids first lies were? You know? 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:04.280 I I know that I did. I don't remember a 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:07.000 whole lot of things specifically, but I remember that my 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:10.640 lies that I would tell were usually just like ridiculous 0:12:10.679 --> 0:12:13.920 stories like coming in from playing outside or something and 0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:17.600 then just making up some absurd story that probably deep 0:12:17.640 --> 0:12:19.959 down I felt like my parents knew that I was lying, 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:23.360 but I'd still go for it anyway. But how about you? 0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:28.200 Uh? Yeah, I remember like being four and telling my 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:31.280 mom that I went to see Superman at the movie 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:33.720 theater and like pretending to fly around like it, but 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:35.680 I'd actually seen Return of the Jedi, And when she 0:12:35.720 --> 0:12:41.520 found out, she was upset not be excited. See Superman 0:12:41.640 --> 0:12:44.080 just because she thought this like innocent kid could never 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:44.960 lie to her, you know. 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:48.560 Ah, yeah, that's a heartbreaking moment for mom. 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:51.959 Ruby actually had an amazing first lie that I remember. 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:54.439 Like Ruby was also about four at this time, and 0:12:54.720 --> 0:12:58.080 Henriett had a birthday party at his school and so 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:00.520 Ruby was like, oh, yeah, we had hake at my 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:03.160 school too. I was like, oh, was there a birthday party? 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:07.040 And we was like no, no, no birthday party. And 0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:09.400 I said, oh yeah, then then why was that cake? 0:13:09.600 --> 0:13:13.679 And we was like, uh the classroom anniversary. It was 0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:16.560 like a classroom niverse and like can I can I 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:19.199 text your teachers to find out about this classroomnniversary? And 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:20.840 we was like no, no, no, they don't. 0:13:20.679 --> 0:13:21.280 Like the text. 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:26.880 And so I said, you know, oh so, uh so 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:30.360 did you sing the traditional classroom anniversary song? And we 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:33.480 was like yeah, and I said, oh would you sing it? 0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:36.760 And Ruby, without like skipping a be goes, it's a 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:41.280 classroom manniversary. It's a classroom manniversary. We do it in 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:42.200 the big building. 0:13:43.200 --> 0:13:46.160 Oh yeah, I heard that one. That's that is a classic. 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:47.320 That's pretty amazing. Ruby. 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:52.600 So anyway, I think it's time to get to the science. 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:54.200 So let's let's get to it. 0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:56.040 I don't know, I feel like it's time for more songs, 0:13:56.280 --> 0:13:58.160 so let's do more of that, all right. Well, the 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:01.360 general consensus is that kids start lying when they're about 0:14:01.400 --> 0:14:04.080 two or three years old, and usually they do it 0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:06.360 when they've done something that they know they shouldn't do, 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:09.080 but you know, their brains aren't sophisticated enough to take 0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:12.160 that extra step of thinking, like will the person I'm 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:15.080 talking to actually believe what I'm saying? And so you 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:18.280 get situations like a toddler standing there covered in paint 0:14:18.640 --> 0:14:20.720 and you say, did you open the paint? And they, 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:21.960 of course deny it. 0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:26.640 So at what age does this start to change? 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:30.480 Usually around four they start to take the listener's perspective 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:34.160 into account, and there's something psychologists called the theory of mind, 0:14:34.520 --> 0:14:37.440 which is the ability to reason about other people's mental 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:40.640 states and then act accordingly. So the kid realizes that 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:43.360 you can see the paint and you'll be wondering how 0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:45.880 that paint got there, and so they might say something like, 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:48.160 you know, my brother did it, which is a nice try, 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:51.920 of course, but maybe the brothers been upstairs all day. 0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:55.640 So they're close to getting this lie right, but there's 0:14:55.640 --> 0:14:56.840 still some holes in the story. 0:14:57.400 --> 0:15:00.280 Yeah, usually there are. It actually just is this side 0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:03.200 note reminds me of our good friend Adam that talked 0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:07.120 about a high school experience when he was sitting next 0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:09.880 to a girl that he had a crush on and 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:13.840 he sneezed into his hands. She looks over at him. 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:16.960 He clearly has snot all in his hands, and he 0:15:17.080 --> 0:15:19.120 just looks at her and he says, it wasn't me. 0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:22.840 Do you remember this story, Yes, it's pretty great. 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:25.680 I just thought that was such a great response. Anyway, 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:29.640 So things really start to change around seven or eight, 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:32.000 and that's when they can account for a wider range 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:35.480 of facts and contexts like in the lie. So maybe 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:37.840 they say, you know, my brother did it, and you say, 0:15:37.880 --> 0:15:40.240 but he's in his room, And then a slightly older 0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:43.640 kid has the capacity to react with something like he 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:45.480 came down for a snack and he was playing with 0:15:45.520 --> 0:15:47.400 the paint, but then he went back upstairs, you know, 0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:49.520 just taking it to another level. 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:51.960 Really, it is wild to think of little kids like 0:15:52.160 --> 0:15:54.440 almost like new versions of AI, Like they just keep 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:55.880 getting told better at lying. 0:15:56.800 --> 0:15:58.800 Yeah, yeah, it's a good way to think about it 0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:01.280 like that. That training over time, and it's even more 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:03.600 whild to realize that this is something parents have known 0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:07.080 about for a long time. Actually, Charles Darwin wrote about 0:16:07.080 --> 0:16:10.720 toddler liars after doing some observational research to his own kids. 0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:13.440 This was, of course, back in the eighteen forties. So 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:15.560 what happened is one day he caught his two and 0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:17.560 a half year old son coming out of the dining 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:21.240 room with something very obviously wrapped up in a pinafore. 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:23.960 And this is, you know, a dress like garment. And 0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:26.920 Darwin says, hey, buddy, what do you got there? And 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:29.760 the kids like nothing, go away, and so Darwin checks 0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:31.840 and it turns out he'd stolen a. 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:35.680 Pickle, the old pickle and a pinafore. 0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:39.160 Bit yeah, you know, the whole bit there. But the 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:42.640 point is there's ample evidence that very young children have 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:46.640 the executive functions needed for lying. More complicated skills like 0:16:46.680 --> 0:16:50.120 memory and inhibition control. They develop a little bit later, 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:53.800 and that makes their lies more elaborate and believable. And 0:16:53.880 --> 0:16:56.920 what researchers have found is that kids with strong cognitive 0:16:56.920 --> 0:17:00.680 abilities actually make better liars. So in a weird way, 0:17:00.760 --> 0:17:04.080 lying as a sign of reaching important developmental milestones. 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:06.040 I like the idea of grade school is giving out 0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:11.440 stickers for lying. You know, so the only thing cuter 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:14.800 than a toddler telling whoppers is an animal who's trying 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:15.280 to trick you. 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:18.200 So were you suggesting that animals also lie? 0:17:18.520 --> 0:17:20.560 It kind of depends on what you mean by lie. 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:23.280 So usually when we say someone is lying, we mean 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:27.480 they're knowingly making a false statement with the intent to deceive. Right, So, 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:30.480 animals can't talk, obviously, so they don't make statements the 0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:33.600 way we do. But if you expand this definition to 0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:37.480 include behaviors, then you know animals do engage in deceptive 0:17:37.480 --> 0:17:40.320 behavior all the time. So if you think about possums 0:17:40.359 --> 0:17:42.960 when they're threatened, they pretend to be dead. I also 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:46.199 read about this bird called the forktailed drongo, which is 0:17:46.280 --> 0:17:49.560 native to the Kalahari Desert in Africa, and when it 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:52.280 sees a predator like an eagle over ahead, it lets 0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:56.320 out a squeaky alarm call. Now, other desert animals, including meerkats, 0:17:56.359 --> 0:17:58.720 have learned to hide when they hear this alarm as well, 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:02.000 But sometimes the drongo plays a trick. If it sees 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:04.359 a mere cat holding food it wants, maybe like a 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:07.760 nice juicy lizard, it starts squeaking the alarm, and the 0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:10.199 mere cat drops the food and runs for cover, and 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:12.280 then the drongo swoops in and takes the meal. 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:15.359 Wow. I mean that definitely sounds like the bird equivalent 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:17.679 of making a fault statement with the intent to deceive, 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:18.280 don't you think? 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:21.439 Yeah? So Weirdly, it's the last part that people actually 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:24.760 disagree about whether or not there's intent. So clearly, the 0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:27.480 drongo knows that if it makes the alarm call, the 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:29.800 mere cat will run, and the possum knows that if 0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:32.800 it lies really still, its predator may walk away. But 0:18:32.840 --> 0:18:37.200 some scientists actually call this functional deception, not intentional deception, 0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:40.159 and they argue that the intent depends on something you 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:42.840 mentioned a few minutes ago, the theory of mind. And 0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:45.439 it's just not clear that animals have the ability to 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:47.720 think about what other creatures know or believe. 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:51.800 So I guess, in other words, the drongo isn't thinking 0:18:51.840 --> 0:18:53.960 if I yell, the dumb meer cat will believe there's 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:56.680 an eagle. It just thinks when I yell, the mere 0:18:56.760 --> 0:18:57.320 cat runs. 0:18:57.520 --> 0:19:00.320 Yeah, pretty much. But there have been some stuff that 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:03.560 suggest animals, particularly great apes, may have a theory of mind, 0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:07.040 and in one experiment, researchers gave an ape eye trackers 0:19:07.240 --> 0:19:09.719 so they could tell where it was looking. And then, 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:12.200 and I swear I'm not making this up, an assistant 0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:15.600 in an ape costume ran into the cage area puts 0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:18.359 an object under one of the two boxes on the floor. 0:19:18.800 --> 0:19:21.880 A researcher pretends to watch this happen and then leaves 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:26.639 the room. And then when this assistant in ape costume 0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:30.080 is there alone, he puts the object under the other 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:32.240 box for a moment, and then he picks it up 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:35.239 and runs away. So when the researcher comes back and 0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:38.320 reaches for the boxes, the ape looks at him and 0:19:38.359 --> 0:19:40.680 then stared at the first box as if he knew 0:19:40.720 --> 0:19:44.520 the researcher was expecting the object to be there, which means, like, 0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:46.960 you know, the ape is picking up on all these 0:19:47.000 --> 0:19:50.119 cues and is more aware of others' behaviors. And actually 0:19:50.119 --> 0:19:51.800 there's video of this on YouTube. 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:54.960 Oh man, I've got to see this. It's such a 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:57.679 fascinating idea. And I also love the idea that like 0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:00.040 a guy with several PhDs having to run around and 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:02.320 then a costume pretending to be an ape. So this 0:20:02.480 --> 0:20:05.159 is definitely something I'm going to watch all right, So 0:20:05.200 --> 0:20:07.320 to switch gears here, Mango, I want to tell you 0:20:07.359 --> 0:20:10.920 about lying and culture clashes. So you mentioned earlier that 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:14.120 lying means knowingly making a false statement with the intention 0:20:14.359 --> 0:20:17.879 to deceive. That's a good definition, but some types of 0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:21.919 deception aren't so clear cut, and the context really does matter. 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:26.199 So omitting information or being purposely ambiguous, those can be 0:20:26.400 --> 0:20:29.600 types of lies. Even accurate information can be used in 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:33.439 misleading ways. And the way we interpret these nuances and 0:20:33.480 --> 0:20:36.160 the way we assess other people's honesty, it really comes 0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:38.760 down to the norms that we've learned from our culture. 0:20:39.640 --> 0:20:42.320