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Speaker 1: Hi, guys, Welcome to another episode of Legally Brunettes. I

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Speaker 1: will be your host today, Emily Simpson with Shane Today.

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Speaker 1: We are very excited because we're going to have a

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Speaker 1: very special guest coming on later. I would call her

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Speaker 1: the Queen of true crime. If you follow true crime

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Speaker 1: at all, or you watch Dateline, you will recognize the

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Speaker 1: name Andrea Canning. And she's going to come on a

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Speaker 1: little later with us, and we're going to talk about today.

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Speaker 1: It's a case that comes out of a little small

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Speaker 1: town called Bart'stown in Kentucky, and it is the disappearance

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Speaker 1: of Crystal Rogers. Now, I have to say I did

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Speaker 1: not follow this case and it was not on my radar,

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Speaker 1: even though it received a lot of global attention and

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Speaker 1: media attention. It was not one of those cases I've followed.

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Speaker 1: But I have done the best I can to research.

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Speaker 1: So we're going to give you a brief overview of

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Speaker 1: the case so you guys can can get to know it,

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Speaker 1: and then we're going to ask Andrea some more specific questions.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure she has a lot more details about the case.

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Speaker 1: So Crystal Rogers was a thirty five year old mother

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Speaker 1: of five children from Bardstown, Kentucky, and was reported missing

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Speaker 1: on July fifth, of twenty fifteen. She was last seen

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Speaker 1: by her boyfriend Brooks Halk on the night of July third,

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Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, at the home they shared. Two days later,

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Speaker 1: Roger's car was found abandoned along a parkway with a

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Speaker 1: flat tire. Her keys, purse, and cell phone were still

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Speaker 1: located inside the car. The discovery of her car quickly

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Speaker 1: raised suspicions of foul play. The case took a darker

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Speaker 1: turn in November of twenty sixteen when Crystel's father, his

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Speaker 1: name is Tommy Ballard, who had been actively searching for

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Speaker 1: his daughter, was shot and killed while hunting on his property.

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Speaker 1: His death remains unsolved, but it is widely believed that

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Speaker 1: this murder is connected to Crystal's disappearance. Years passed with

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Speaker 1: very little progress, but in August of twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 1: the FBI made a significant breakthrough. As of twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 1: Crystal's body has still never been located. So let's go

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Speaker 1: back and start with the timeline of this case. So

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Speaker 1: we're talking about the fourth of July weekend of twenty fifteen.

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Speaker 1: Brooks Howck was reaching out to Crystal saying, let's have

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Speaker 1: a romantic type of date night right at their family farm.

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Speaker 2: This is at the Hawk family farm.

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Speaker 3: How is the boyfriend?

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Speaker 1: How is the boyfriend? And also the Hawk family. It

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Speaker 1: kind of reminds me of the Murdoch family because from

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Speaker 1: what I've read this Hawk family is they have a

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Speaker 1: lot of land. They have a large farm with a

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Speaker 1: lot of land. They own a lot of rental property.

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Speaker 1: I believe he owns like seventy something properties. He also

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Speaker 1: does construction and builds homes. So I think they're a

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Speaker 1: very affluent, well known name in this very small town.

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Speaker 1: So the last time Crystal Rogers was seen alive with

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Speaker 1: her then boyfriend, Brooks Howck, was on July third, twenty fifteen.

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Speaker 1: Halck then told investigators they were at his family farm

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Speaker 1: together with their son, Eli, and that they left together

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Speaker 1: that night. He said when he woke up the next day,

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Speaker 1: she was gone, and Eli, the son, who I think

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Speaker 1: is like toddler age at the time happened.

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Speaker 3: They share a son.

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Speaker 1: They share a son together. She has four other children

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Speaker 1: from other previous relationships, but they do have the one

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Speaker 1: son together, and Brooks claims that he woke up the

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Speaker 1: next morning after they went to the family farm the

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Speaker 1: night before and he said she was gone. He also

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Speaker 1: claims that the night before the last time he saw her,

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Speaker 1: he went to bed around midnight and she was playing

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Speaker 1: on her phone, is what he claims. But the thing is,

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Speaker 1: he doesn't seem too concerned when he wakes up and

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Speaker 1: she's not there. And then I remember in an interrogation

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Speaker 1: or a questioning by the police, this is a detective

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Speaker 1: John Snow when he questioned him, he was saying, well,

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Speaker 1: where was Eli, And he said Eli was in bed

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Speaker 1: with him when he woke up. So he wakes up

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Speaker 1: and he claims that the baby's in bed with him,

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Speaker 1: the mother's gone, and he doesn't find that strange.

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Speaker 4: First thing anytime some boyfriend or husband just says, I

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Speaker 4: don't know, she just vanished. She didn't take her purse,

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Speaker 4: shouldn't take her wallet, she didn't take her kids. She

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Speaker 4: just disappeared. I mean that right there is a huge right.

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Speaker 2: Well, he didn't say that.

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Speaker 1: He claimed that he just thought she was with her

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Speaker 1: cousin who is a close friend of hers. Okay, I

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Speaker 1: believe her name was Sabrina.

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Speaker 4: Okay, so so far he has reason to think she

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Speaker 4: just left early and went somewhere, yes, or at least

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Speaker 4: that's his story.

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Speaker 1: That's his story. So on July fifth, twenty fifteen, Crystal's mother,

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Speaker 1: Sherry Ballard, reports her daughter missing after she cannot reach her.

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Speaker 1: That same day, Crystal's car is then found abandoned along

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Speaker 1: the Bluegrass Parkway. Her keys were in the ignition, her

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Speaker 1: phone and purse were still in the car, and the

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Speaker 1: car has a flat tire. Although we did see an

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Speaker 1: interview with the dad and the brother, and the brother

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Speaker 1: and the dad were both claiming that she would never

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Speaker 1: have left her car like that because the tire you

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Speaker 1: could still drive on.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't completely flat, it was flow.

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Speaker 4: Remember that he's done that before or something where she'll

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Speaker 4: drive as far as she candy get somewhere, right.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's just females in general, because I

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Speaker 2: would do the same thing.

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Speaker 3: I tell my kids that I say we can buy

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Speaker 3: a new reel right.

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Speaker 2: It means your safety right exactly.

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Speaker 1: So I can't imagine if the car is still functioning

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Speaker 1: and the tire is not completely flat, that you wouldn't

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Speaker 1: just continue on until you got to a parking lot

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Speaker 1: or somewhere safe, not just abandoning a car on the

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Speaker 1: side of the road, leaving your purse, your cell phone.

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Speaker 2: And then left right. So July eighth of.

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Speaker 1: Twenty fifteen, brooks Howe is brought into the police station

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Speaker 1: and is questioned by Detective John Snow. He's also named

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Speaker 1: of a person of interest at this time. I actually

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Speaker 1: watched this. I don't know what you want to call it.

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Speaker 1: You want to call it an interrogation, questioning, whatever, you know.

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Speaker 1: The thing that I think is the most interesting is

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Speaker 1: when someone can't really answer precise questions about times when

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Speaker 1: someone has disappeared, when they're not sure, and it felt

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Speaker 1: like the detective was like, well, did you leave it

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Speaker 1: this time?

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Speaker 4: Oh sounds good, Also not even making an effort to

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Speaker 4: try to recall, like trying to put the pieces.

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Speaker 1: Together right, Like it was just like, yeah, that sounds good. Sure,

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Speaker 1: maybe like that, yeah, probably about that time.

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Speaker 2: No, no, right. And also the red.

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Speaker 1: Flag is claiming that they were at this family farm

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Speaker 1: and that they were and that he had, you know,

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Speaker 1: lit a fire. He said, he burns a lot of

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Speaker 1: things at this farm, and he had the sun with him,

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Speaker 1: and she was there too, and they were there for

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Speaker 1: a long span of time. He claims. However, it's like

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Speaker 1: muddy and cold and rainy that day. So I don't

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Speaker 1: know how you're out at a family farm with a

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Speaker 1: little child and you're out in the rain and the

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Speaker 1: mud and you're there for a long period of time.

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Speaker 3: Behavior.

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Speaker 1: So then during this this is also interesting. So during

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Speaker 1: this questioning, around seven pm, he gets a call on

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Speaker 1: his cell phone and I watched this interrogation or questioning,

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Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it. His cell phone rings

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Speaker 1: and he says to the detective, do you mind if

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Speaker 1: I answer this? And the detective says, my co conspirator,

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Speaker 1: I would sure go ahead. First of all, I can't

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Speaker 1: imagine if I'm in a police station across from a

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Speaker 1: detective being questioned about the disappearance of my significant other

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Speaker 1: that I'm like, excuse me for a moment, can I

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Speaker 1: please take this call?

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Speaker 3: But he does well, and him take the call knowing it.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I'm so.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, his brother, Nick, how who is a police officer

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Speaker 1: at the Bardstown Police Department. Department this, if you guys

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Speaker 1: have the opportunity, just google it. Google this, this interrogation,

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Speaker 1: this questioning. You have to watch this phone call. It's

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Speaker 1: the most bizarre phone call to me because if you

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Speaker 1: called me and I picked up during you know, this questioning,

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Speaker 1: and you're telling me things, my responses on the other

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Speaker 1: end would be like okay, uh huh okay.

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Speaker 3: But everything's like, okay, where do we put the body?

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Speaker 5: Hey?

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Speaker 1: So he's like, so you're telling me I shouldn't answer

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Speaker 1: question like he's everything he's saying is like, so okay,

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Speaker 1: So just to so you're saying, right, so fred I

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Speaker 1: should get up and I should walk out and leave.

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Speaker 1: It's just so bizarre to me, this conversation incriminating myself, right,

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Speaker 1: And so he hangs up with his brother and he's like,

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Speaker 1: that's my brother. He's a police officer. He's telling me

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Speaker 1: that you guys are gonna screw me and that I

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Speaker 1: need to leave. So I'm not going to answer any

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Speaker 1: questions anymore. He doesn't trust cop, he doesn't exactly, So

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Speaker 1: I guess at that point the questioning ends, and then

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Speaker 1: you know Nick Howe, who's a police officer.

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Speaker 2: Then they know about this, right, it's right there. I mean.

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Speaker 2: So then his chief of.

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Speaker 3: Police or whoever he's on their radar right now, he's.

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Speaker 2: On the radar.

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Speaker 1: They go to him and they're like, why would you

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Speaker 1: not answer questions. You need to go down and answer

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Speaker 1: this detective questions immediately, so then you get video footage

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Speaker 1: of them questioning the brother. The brother can't remember anything.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't know anything, he can't recall, doesn't like I.

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Speaker 3: Pick up this phone call.

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Speaker 4: He has no idea my brother, and he's telling me

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Speaker 4: not to answer anything.

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Speaker 2: He can't recall anything.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't know what the two brothers did together after

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Speaker 1: she disappeared. They I guess they have video surveillance of

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Speaker 1: like the two of them leaving together. He doesn't know

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Speaker 1: where they went. He doesn't know what they're doing. He

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Speaker 1: can't he doesn't remember anything. He gets fired, well, yeah, he.

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Speaker 3: Has no memory. He can get cop it without a memory.

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Speaker 1: He's accused of warning Brooks not to speak to police,

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Speaker 1: and he has later fired from the Bardtown Police to

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Speaker 1: apartment for interfering in the investigation.

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Speaker 4: You know, it is interesting though, because just because he's

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Speaker 4: a police officer doesn't mean that his brother can't plead

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Speaker 4: the fifth can't have an attorney and must spill everything.

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Speaker 4: But I think there's some I don't know. I just

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Speaker 4: figure with police officers, there's something where if there's an investigation,

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Speaker 4: they either can't get can't meddle into someone's business. You know,

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Speaker 4: if they're trying to conduct an investigation, or maybe they're

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Speaker 4: not to they themselves have to be interviewed. And if

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Speaker 4: someone is not criminal, they have to tell everything. And

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Speaker 4: here he is not remembering anything, basically not being willing

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Speaker 4: to share.

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Speaker 3: So they cut him lose.

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Speaker 4: Probably he probably violated some employment agreements as a police officer.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: So then about sixteen months after this, they still haven't

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Speaker 1: found the body, and they haven't arrested anyone.

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Speaker 3: They've never found the body.

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Speaker 2: They've never found the body.

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Speaker 3: I mean, give me an update, it will be they

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Speaker 3: still haven't found.

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Speaker 1: They still haven't found the body. But here we are

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Speaker 1: sixteen months later. So just to give you a little background,

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Speaker 1: Crystal's dad, Tommy Ballard, was he became an investigator himself.

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Speaker 1: He was so hell bent on finding his daughter that

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Speaker 1: he spent every single day investigating what happened to her.

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Speaker 1: He was either internet searching or he was going around

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Speaker 1: by foot and interviewing people. He had a huge box

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Speaker 1: that was very well organized. He kept logs of everything,

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Speaker 1: He kept dates and receipts, and he went and got

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Speaker 1: video footage from surveillance cameras, and so he was heavily

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Speaker 1: involved in trying to find out what happened to his daughter. Then,

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Speaker 1: sixteen months after she disappeared, this is in November of

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Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, Crystal's father, Tommy Ballard, goes out hunting with

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Speaker 1: his grandson on their own property and he is shot

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Speaker 1: and killed while he's hunting.

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Speaker 3: Eleven year old son. Right, I believe he.

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Speaker 2: Was around eleven something like that.

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Speaker 1: The shooting has rolled a homicide, but no suspects are identified.

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Speaker 1: After his death, the community's suspicions grow that both cases

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Speaker 1: are connected. I mean, it doesn't take a rocket science

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Speaker 1: is to figure out that it's most likely connect to

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Speaker 1: the disappearance of Crystal Rogers because you have a dad

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Speaker 1: that's heavily involved in investigating, and I feel like maybe

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Speaker 1: he was coming close to learning things. He was interviewing people,

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Speaker 1: he was pulling surveillance, and if he was meddling and

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Speaker 1: finding and getting too close to things, I mean.

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Speaker 3: You're gonna have a hunting accident.

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Speaker 2: You're gonna have a hunting accident.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, I saw Oxygen did kind of

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Speaker 1: a documentary and this is before his death.

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Speaker 2: There were a lot of.

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Speaker 1: Interviews with him, and they were following him and then

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Speaker 1: they interviewed the brother and the brother showed them the

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Speaker 1: location where he was shot when he was out hunting,

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Speaker 1: and there was actually a line of trees that was

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Speaker 1: very thick, but they found an area where someone had

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Speaker 1: cut the trees to make a hole so that you

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Speaker 1: had a clear view into the property. So they believe

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Speaker 1: that's where the shooting came from. And you know when

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Speaker 1: I say that, they the branches had you know, clean edges.

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Speaker 1: Someone had taken a tool and it was it wasn't

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Speaker 1: a bear, it was human tool that had removed a

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Speaker 1: lot of this brush so that there was a clear

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Speaker 1: area to shoot from. And they also believed that they

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Speaker 1: found the kickback, which I'm not like a gun owner person,

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Speaker 1: I didn't know what that meant. But they explained the

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Speaker 1: kickback is when you're holding the rifle and they're like

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Speaker 1: leaning up against the tree to shoot him. Then the

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Speaker 1: kickback hit the tree and they found a wedge missing

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Speaker 1: out of the tree, which would have been the kickback.

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Speaker 1: So they think they know exactly where the shot was

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Speaker 1: fired from. There's also another murder we're not going to

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Speaker 1: go in depth into this, but there was also a

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Speaker 1: murder of a police officer prior to Crystal's disappearance. He

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Speaker 1: was murdered right before her. And there's also people that

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Speaker 1: think that there is some connection there because he worked

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Speaker 1: with Nick Hawk at the police department, so that was

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Speaker 1: prior to Crystal Rogers, prior to her disappearance.

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Speaker 4: They think there's a connection in terms of those who

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Speaker 4: murdered or that it's the same motive like the.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, you know, what I was thinking in

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Speaker 1: my takeaway was maybe ellis this cop who was a

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Speaker 1: good cop, knew something about.

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Speaker 3: Well, how'd you know he was a good cop.

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Speaker 1: Well that's what everyone said in the interview, that he

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Speaker 1: was like a great cop and that he was like

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Speaker 1: a friendly guy and he was involved in his community.

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Speaker 1: The married kid was suspicion, so he had no you know,

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Speaker 1: stains one's reputation or anything. I think he and he

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Speaker 1: had worked with the Nick Hawk at this police department.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if they weren't partners or anything, but

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Speaker 1: they worked in the same department. I'm just putting things together.

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Speaker 1: But maybe he saw something or knew something and they

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Speaker 1: needed to get rid of him, and then maybe Crystal learned.

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Speaker 2: About that somehow.

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Speaker 1: Maybe she learned about this murder of Ellis, this officer Ellison.

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Speaker 1: Maybe she knew too much, and then the dad knew

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Speaker 1: too much about her. It seems like all these people

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Speaker 1: are connected somehow in this very small town. So in

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Speaker 1: August of twenty twenty, this is when the FBI officially

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Speaker 1: takes over the investigation into Crystal rogers disappearance, executing search

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Speaker 1: warrants at Brooke Howke's home, his family farm, and other

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Speaker 1: related properties. Agents also sees evidence from Nick Howke's home

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Speaker 1: and several vehicles. In August of twenty twenty one, the

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Speaker 1: FBI returns to Bardstown to search a subdivision built by

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Speaker 1: the Hawk family, focusing on new construction sites that may

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Speaker 1: have been disturbed after Rogers disappeared. You know, I know,

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Speaker 1: I mean, they're searching for a body, right. They don't

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Speaker 1: want to they don't want to bring murder charges against

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Speaker 1: someone without a body. That's it's hard to do. So

303
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Speaker 1: you want to find the body.

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Speaker 3: A missing body does not mean they're dead.

305
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Speaker 2: You can assume, you can make an assumption, but.

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Speaker 3: You can assume wherever you want.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but legally that does not automatically there are other

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Speaker 4: things that have to come into play.

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Speaker 2: Well, I do believe she was actually legally.

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Speaker 4: Eventually, i'd spent in the offset. It's not like, oh,

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Speaker 4: she's been missing for three days.

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Speaker 3: She's dead.

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Speaker 1: And they're obviously looking at these sites where he's constructing things,

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Speaker 1: because that's the perfect way to get rid of a body. Right,

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Speaker 1: You're you do construction? Tell me, well, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: because I've never done that. But I'm just saying if

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Speaker 1: I work in construction, I build houses and I'm pouring concrete,

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Speaker 1: it seems like kind of poltergeist, right. They also they

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Speaker 1: also have searched a lake. There's a lake near their

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Speaker 1: family farm called Lake Melody.

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Speaker 4: I think I saw that. That's a massive lake.

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Speaker 2: It's a massive lake.

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Speaker 1: They do a grid pattern, which I wasn't sure how

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Speaker 1: you searched a lake, but that makes sense.

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Speaker 2: They they don't just I don't.

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Speaker 1: Know, I would just get out a boat, willy nilly,

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't know what to do.

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Speaker 2: But they clearly have a grid pattern.

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Speaker 1: They had the the cadaver dogs on the boat and

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Speaker 1: the cadaver dog.

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Speaker 2: The cadaver dog's name is Gina.

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Speaker 1: By the way, Gina, Gina would signal in the same

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Speaker 1: area on like two different occasions searching this lake, and

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Speaker 1: then the divers would go down you know where she

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Speaker 1: would signal, and they still couldn't find anything. So the

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Speaker 1: lake's been searched a few times, they still haven't found anything.

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Speaker 1: Now here we get some co conspirators. First of all,

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Speaker 1: we know the brother Nick Hawk knows something, right, I mean,

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Speaker 1: he's involved in some way, I'm sure. And there's also

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Speaker 1: some some evidence that was found in his police cruiser.

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Speaker 1: Apparently there was a blanket that was found in his

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Speaker 1: police cruiser that like might have had some hair of

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Speaker 1: like crystal on it.

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Speaker 4: Or in it or something, and it was similar to hers,

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Speaker 4: but it was not ruled an exact match right that

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Speaker 4: the DNA right.

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Speaker 1: But there was also somehow there was some recording made

348
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Speaker 1: of Rosemary, who is the mother of Brooks and Nick,

349
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Speaker 1: having a conversation with Nick. I don't know how they

350
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Speaker 1: recorded themselves accidentally, but there was some accidental I don't

351
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Speaker 1: know maybe, I mean I couldn't really find details of it,

352
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Speaker 1: but somehow there was an accidental recording made of Rosemary

353
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Speaker 1: asking Nick about the blanket and the in the trunk

354
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Speaker 1: of the car and being concerned about it, So.

355
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Speaker 2: I don't don't, I don't know.

356
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Speaker 1: That's all I can get from these articles is that

357
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Speaker 1: that's how I felt.

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Speaker 4: I read a little bit about the case too, it

359
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Speaker 4: it felt like there was a lot of I don't know,

360
00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,520
Speaker 4: it felt messy and unclear on a lot of things.

361
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Speaker 4: Like you just said, it's like, oh, there's a hair

362
00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,840
Speaker 4: and it's kind of the same but not an exact match.

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Speaker 3: Oh there's a blanket.

364
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:13,080
Speaker 4: Oh, then the police officer says not to answer questions,

365
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Speaker 4: but he didn't reveal anything himself, Like.

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Speaker 1: It's just, yeah, frustrating, it is frustrating. I think it's

367
00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:21,640
Speaker 1: very clear. The facts of the case are very clear

368
00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,760
Speaker 1: up until the point where I believe the FBI starts investigating,

369
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Speaker 1: and I think they were very tight lipped on the evidence,

370
00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:29,919
Speaker 1: and that's why it's difficult to decipher what it is

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Speaker 1: that they found.

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00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:32,960
Speaker 2: But they did.

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Speaker 1: In twenty twenty three, they conduct another round of searches,

374
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Speaker 1: reportedly finding new evidence tied to Roger's disappearance. And then

375
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Speaker 1: this is also when they found evidence of co conspirators

376
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Speaker 1: being involved with Brooks' HOWK and the disappearance.

377
00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:49,399
Speaker 4: And here's another question, how did they connect. How did

378
00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,800
Speaker 4: they find these co conspirators. I couldn't see that either.

379
00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:55,159
Speaker 1: Well, from what I understand, and it's not very clear,

380
00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:59,400
Speaker 1: but there someone testified or must have told the FBI

381
00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:03,080
Speaker 1: when they were that they overheard a conversation of Joseph

382
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Speaker 1: Lawson and like the dad, So Joseph has a son, Steve.

383
00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:09,720
Speaker 1: The dad is Steve Lawson. I believe Steve Lawson works

384
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Speaker 1: with Brooks.

385
00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:14,360
Speaker 4: How he gets work from the realtor or the realty

386
00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:18,840
Speaker 4: side of the company, of the family business. And you know,

387
00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:22,000
Speaker 4: the theory is maybe he was going to support you know,

388
00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:23,920
Speaker 4: he wanted to have close ties with Brooks in order

389
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Speaker 4: to get more business. So he might have you know,

390
00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:28,360
Speaker 4: helped him a serpent that way.

391
00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:31,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, allegedly or I think it comes up in

392
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Speaker 1: trial that there was someone overheard a conversation between Rosemary,

393
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Speaker 1: who again is the mother of Nick, and Brooks how

394
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Speaker 1: asking I believe it was Steve if he knew anyone

395
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Speaker 1: that could get rid of Crystal.

396
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Speaker 3: Yeah, and he wanted Crystal gone.

397
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Speaker 1: I wanted Crystal gone something like that, some conversation like that.

398
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Speaker 3: I didn't say dead or just gone gone.

399
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Speaker 5: Ye.

400
00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:52,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, And then I believe he said something to the

401
00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:54,720
Speaker 1: effect of, well you can get rid of anyone with

402
00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:56,040
Speaker 1: a right amount of money or.

403
00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:56,639
Speaker 2: Something like that.

404
00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:01,000
Speaker 1: And apparently there was a fifty thousand dollars pay or something.

405
00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:01,920
Speaker 3: Made money exchanged.

406
00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:04,760
Speaker 1: I read fifty thousand. I don't know what the evidence

407
00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:06,760
Speaker 1: was to prove it was fifteen thousand, but there was

408
00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:07,480
Speaker 1: something like that.

409
00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:07,960
Speaker 3: Wire.

410
00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:12,000
Speaker 1: So Joseph Lawson is the son of Steve Lawson, and

411
00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:14,600
Speaker 1: I believe Joseph Lawson was involved because he was the

412
00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:18,920
Speaker 1: one that drove the car, her car that was left

413
00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:23,240
Speaker 1: along the highway and left the car there. So Joseph

414
00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:26,920
Speaker 1: Lawson is indicted for conspiracy to commit murder and conspiracy

415
00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:30,320
Speaker 1: tampering with physical evidence. It is not Lawson's first run

416
00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:32,680
Speaker 1: in with the law. He had multiple criminal charges prior

417
00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:36,840
Speaker 1: to this, including fourth degree assault, first degree strangulation, domestic

418
00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:39,640
Speaker 1: violin summons, and persistent felony offender.

419
00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:40,800
Speaker 2: The court.

420
00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:44,199
Speaker 1: The court records alleged Joseph Lawson was hired by Brooks

421
00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,000
Speaker 1: how to kill Crystal for fifty thousand. So Joseph Lawson

422
00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:51,480
Speaker 1: is the son and then the dad is Steve. But

423
00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:52,960
Speaker 1: Joseph is the one that drove the car.

424
00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:59,040
Speaker 4: I believe he moved the car to Mislead investigations, and

425
00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:01,280
Speaker 4: I think he went back with the dad or something,

426
00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:04,639
Speaker 4: because then they wanted to remove like a bat and

427
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:06,639
Speaker 4: then the car seat they had or they tried to

428
00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:08,640
Speaker 4: fix the car seat because you know he's probably taller

429
00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:12,120
Speaker 4: they can, right, So that that's enough where it's like, Okay,

430
00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:15,080
Speaker 4: you got your hands involved in this disappearance. She's presumed dead,

431
00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:17,600
Speaker 4: so now you're a conspirator in the murder.

432
00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:17,880
Speaker 3: Right.

433
00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:20,560
Speaker 1: So in September of twenty twenty three, Brooks Howck is

434
00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:23,440
Speaker 1: arrested and charged with murder and tampering with physical evidence

435
00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:25,720
Speaker 1: in the death of Crystal Rogers. His bond is set

436
00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:29,480
Speaker 1: at ten million. Court records alleged that how planned her

437
00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,840
Speaker 1: death and disposed of her remains. Steve Lawson, the father

438
00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:35,760
Speaker 1: of Joseph Lawson and former employee to Brooks Howeck, has

439
00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,919
Speaker 1: charged with conspiracy to commit murder. That makes three people

440
00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:42,600
Speaker 1: facing charges in her disappearance. So in November of twenty

441
00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,639
Speaker 1: twenty four, we're getting into almost present day here. So

442
00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:48,720
Speaker 1: this case started back in twenty fifteen. Just a reminder,

443
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,760
Speaker 1: the judge approves two separate trials in this case. The

444
00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:54,440
Speaker 1: judge also moves the case out of that county and moves.

445
00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:55,119
Speaker 3: It to the Challenge.

446
00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:58,200
Speaker 1: The trials are for who, so the two separate, separate

447
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,160
Speaker 1: trials are Steve Lawson will be tried separately from his son,

448
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:05,879
Speaker 1: but Joseph and Brooks Holck are tried together. So then

449
00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,040
Speaker 1: on May thirtieth, the twenty twenty five, this is after

450
00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,080
Speaker 1: Steve Lawson's trial. He was found guilty on both counts

451
00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:15,720
Speaker 1: conspiracy to murder and tampering with physical evidence. So there

452
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:19,480
Speaker 1: was some damning evidence presented during trial against Steve Lawson.

453
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:23,520
Speaker 1: They had recorded jail calls and statements. Prosecutors played recorded

454
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:25,960
Speaker 1: calls Lawson made from custody and used them to show

455
00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,920
Speaker 1: consciousness of guilt and incriminating admissions about moving vehicles and

456
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:34,280
Speaker 1: helping conceal evidence. The recordings were highlighted during the closing.

457
00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:34,520
Speaker 2: Of his trial.

458
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,679
Speaker 1: Witness testimony places Lawson in a role moving Rogers car.

459
00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,199
Speaker 1: Family and other witnesses testified that Lawson picked up his

460
00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:44,760
Speaker 1: son Joseph and helped him move Crystal Rodgers' vehicle on

461
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:48,600
Speaker 1: or around July third. The prosecution argued that that conduct

462
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,160
Speaker 1: was part of the conspiracy and the tampering with evidence

463
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,200
Speaker 1: then in July eighth to twenty twenty five, brooks Howck

464
00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:56,240
Speaker 1: is found guilty. He goes on trial for his own

465
00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,320
Speaker 1: murder or his own you know, his own murder, his

466
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,960
Speaker 1: own self murder charges. Okay, So brooks Howse is found

467
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,880
Speaker 1: guilty of murder and they called it principal or accomplice

468
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:12,960
Speaker 1: because they could never definitively prove who. We just know

469
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:14,960
Speaker 1: that she's dead and these three people are involved, but

470
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,800
Speaker 1: we don't know who actually pulled.

471
00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:18,479
Speaker 2: The trigger or why.

472
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:20,119
Speaker 3: I didn't like this case very much. It was very

473
00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:21,000
Speaker 3: difficult to like.

474
00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:25,359
Speaker 2: Distinguish who did what, whose role was what. Yeah, so

475
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:26,240
Speaker 2: brooks House.

476
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:28,359
Speaker 4: It's more of a well, we know you guys did

477
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:30,520
Speaker 4: something right, So he's gone.

478
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:32,840
Speaker 1: So you're all in trouble, but we don't really know

479
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:34,639
Speaker 1: how to divvy up who did what.

480
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:39,479
Speaker 4: So we'll just fire the police officer. Yeah, put all

481
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,119
Speaker 4: of you in jail, and then we'll try you guys.

482
00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:44,439
Speaker 1: Brooks Howck has found guilty of murder, principal or accomplice,

483
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:47,000
Speaker 1: and tampering with physical evidence. He is sentenced to life

484
00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:51,000
Speaker 1: in prison. Joseph Lawson is found guilty of conspiracy to

485
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,720
Speaker 1: commit murder and tampering with evidence, and he is sentenced

486
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:56,879
Speaker 1: to twenty five years in prison. So let's just talk

487
00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:58,840
Speaker 1: about a little bit. Let's go through this. The most

488
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,639
Speaker 1: damning evidence presented against brooks How. This is what I

489
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,240
Speaker 1: was trying to understand because I didn't follow the trial.

490
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:06,640
Speaker 1: This case wasn't on my radar, and this is just.

491
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:09,440
Speaker 4: Very media friendly, right, Well, I think in that town

492
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:11,120
Speaker 4: was sure everyone in the town knew.

493
00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:11,640
Speaker 3: That's yeah.

494
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:14,040
Speaker 1: But I mean, I don't know, I don't know why.

495
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,440
Speaker 1: It was just I didn't really know much about it.

496
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,879
Speaker 4: Probably not until things surface, didn't it what caused it

497
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:22,680
Speaker 4: to surface more recently.

498
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,360
Speaker 1: Because he just went on trial this summer twenty five.

499
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,199
Speaker 1: Just some of the evidence against brooks How was his

500
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 1: own written police statement. There were a lot of inconsistencies

501
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:36,199
Speaker 1: in it and contradictions. You know, he claimed that she

502
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:38,159
Speaker 1: was playing on her phone the night he saw her

503
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,760
Speaker 1: the last time, up until midnight, but then forensics showed

504
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 1: that her phone was shut off at you know, nine

505
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:43,400
Speaker 1: twenty seven.

506
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:45,439
Speaker 3: Again, didn't they ping his cell phone?

507
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 4: Their cell phones? Yeah, approximate area. So it was very

508
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 4: suspicious behavior, exactly. It was all very circumstantial.

509
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:53,680
Speaker 2: It all was there's no smoking gun in.

510
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,679
Speaker 4: This case, a life sentence on a circumstantial case.

511
00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, So we're super excited to have our guest today.

512
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:11,119
Speaker 1: Andrea Canning from Dateline. Andrea Canning is a correspondent for

513
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 1: Dateline NBC, the longest running primetime show in NBC history.

514
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,760
Speaker 1: Since joining the news magazine in twenty twelve, she has

515
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 1: delivered breaking news and in depth investigative reports. In addition

516
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 1: to hosting the podcast Dateline True Crime Weekly, Andrea also

517
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 1: hosts the syndicated Dateline series and contributes to several Dateline

518
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:35,440
Speaker 1: NBC podcasts, including Talking, Dateline, After the Verdict and Missing

519
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:39,359
Speaker 1: in America. Her contributions to journalism have earned her three

520
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,199
Speaker 1: News and Documentary Emmy nominations. Andrea is married to a

521
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:47,400
Speaker 1: US Marine Corps reservist and F eighteen fighter pilot, Lieutenant

522
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 1: Colonel Tony Bancroft, and together they have five daughters and

523
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 1: a son.

524
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 2: Hi, Andrea, Hey, Hi, I'm so excited to have you

525
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:58,439
Speaker 2: on today. Thank you so much.

526
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 1: You know, I was thinking about and I feel like

527
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 1: we've been like dming and texting for years and years,

528
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 1: but I don't think we've ever actually met in person,

529
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:06,639
Speaker 1: have we?

530
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:08,399
Speaker 2: No we haven't.

531
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,879
Speaker 5: So it all started with Kelly like way back in

532
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 5: the day.

533
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:13,400
Speaker 2: Oh that's right.

534
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:13,680
Speaker 1: Yeah.

535
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 5: Then she's the one who was like, yeah, I don't

536
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 5: even know.

537
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 2: Thank you for joining us today. First of all, I

538
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 2: love Dateline. I've been watching Dateline for years.

539
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 1: I've always been such a true crime junkie, and that's

540
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 1: why I've always just been Were you always a true

541
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 1: crime fan or was that something that came later?

542
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,359
Speaker 5: Yeah? No, No, I was like I I did this

543
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 5: appearance on the Kelly Clarkson Show like last year, and

544
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,199
Speaker 5: they were like, did you They asked, like a similar question. Yeah,

545
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 5: you know. Yeah, actually to the point where we my

546
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 5: dad found this book that I had written at eight

547
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 5: years old. Okay, it was called Murder Mystery and there

548
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,399
Speaker 5: was a knife dripping blood on the Oh my gosh.

549
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 4: Well I'm glad you went in the direction of journalism.

550
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 1: In the other direction, right right, right, Well all right,

551
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 1: so we just did right before you came on. We

552
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 1: just kind of went through and did a brief synopsis

553
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:09,160
Speaker 1: of the Crystal Rogers case. And I know that I'm

554
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 1: sure you know way more than we do.

555
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 2: Is there anything?

556
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 1: We just kind of got up to the point where

557
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 1: Brooks went to trial, he was convicted, he's in prison

558
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 1: for life. I would and what can you tell me

559
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:23,640
Speaker 1: could obviously you've been following this case.

560
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:24,639
Speaker 2: You know a lot about it.

561
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 1: I believe you were supposed to were you supposed to

562
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 1: interview him recently?

563
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,639
Speaker 5: Uh? Yeah, So he wants to talk, is what I

564
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,680
Speaker 5: told our team. Okay, but his attorney was telling him

565
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 5: not to and so uh huh he backed out.

566
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, what did you follow the trial closely

567
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 1: for Brooks?

568
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 5: Yes, I've yes, I've been very immersed in this case.

569
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:51,640
Speaker 5: And yeah, have an upcoming episode coming on very soon.

570
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 1: So Andrea, let me ask you, first of all, do

571
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 1: you think, just in your professional opinion, because you've been

572
00:26:57,560 --> 00:26:59,400
Speaker 1: involved in true crime for so long, do you think

573
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 1: that we will ever be able to know what happened

574
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:03,680
Speaker 1: to Crystal and where her body's located?

575
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 5: I mean that is you know the million dollar question,

576
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 5: right what happened to Crystal? The family? You know obviously

577
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,880
Speaker 5: Brooks how you know they believe that he is responsible

578
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 5: for this. They also point the finger at members of

579
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 5: his family. Then there's the two other men that were

580
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 5: you know, Joseph and Steve Laws, and you know they

581
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 5: they believe one they know where Crystal's remains are, you know,

582
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 5: or her body, and they are just not saying. And

583
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 5: you know, that was the one thing you know during

584
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,640
Speaker 5: sentencing was like tell me where my daughter is, and

585
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 5: they just you know, crickets, like they just will not say.

586
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,399
Speaker 5: And I mean there were you know, when we interviewed investigators,

587
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 5: there were mentions of like, oh, you know, I fetter

588
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,640
Speaker 5: to the hogs. You know, things like that, like never substantiated.

589
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 5: There was also a fire that was on the prop

590
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,959
Speaker 5: that night where they took her car, and but they

591
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,679
Speaker 5: stifted through the the you know, the ash and everything,

592
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,159
Speaker 5: and they found no remains of Crystal. So you know,

593
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 5: with all that, all the properties and everything, I mean,

594
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 5: she could be anywhere, like you know, it's it's really

595
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:20,360
Speaker 5: hard to say. Do I think we'll find out? I mean,

596
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 5: that is up that is for them to do the

597
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,199
Speaker 5: right thing and to tell this family where she is.

598
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:27,959
Speaker 2: You know, I'm surprised.

599
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 1: I'm not surprised that Brooks didn't break and say, you

600
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 1: know where she is, because obviously he's maintaining his innocence, correct,

601
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 1: I mean, he's he's yes, right, But the the other

602
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 1: two Joseph and Steve. I'm surprised they didn't use that

603
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 1: as a bargaining chip at some point, you know, during

604
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 1: what once they were indicted, And I'm surprised they didn't

605
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 1: sit across from prosecutors and say, you know, make some

606
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: kind of plea deal about where the body is to them.

607
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 5: I mean that you know that that I don't. I'm

608
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 5: not sure if that was offered to them. I would

609
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 5: have to pull up the transcript because they did a

610
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 5: really lengthy interview with the prosecutors. But she, I mean,

611
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 5: and it's a great question, like, you know, why why

612
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 5: not you know, why not get a great deal? Let's

613
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 5: say here, I can offer up where she is, you know,

614
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 5: and we see that all the time in these cases,

615
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 5: right the first person to squeal, you know, you know

616
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 5: gets the deal, right, right, you know, in this case

617
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 5: they didn't.

618
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 1: So what is your opinion on Tommy ballor do you

619
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 1: do you believe it's all connected?

620
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 5: So I'm going to just speak from common sense, right,

621
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 5: you know, I don't know. The police have not confirmed

622
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 5: to us that they even if they think they're connected.

623
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 5: They're very almost cryptic about it in the way that

624
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 5: they talk about it. But if you were to talk

625
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 5: to a lot of people in the community and use

626
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 5: common sense. And if you talk to the family, clearly

627
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:58,479
Speaker 5: one hundred percent they believe they're connected. I mean, Tommy is,

628
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 5: you know, getting closer and closer to various things. He's

629
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 5: you know, devoted his life at this point to solving

630
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 5: his daughter's murder, to finding her. And then you know,

631
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 5: and there's a there's a man that's brought up in

632
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 5: all of this, and apparently Tommy was really close to

633
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 5: this other man that has not been charged when with anything.

634
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 5: I'm not going to say his name, but he somehow

635
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 5: fits into this puzzle. Tommy was getting closer to this man, right,

636
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 5: and then he turns up dead. And so again I

637
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 5: go back to common sense. He's investigating his daughter's murder,

638
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 5: he's getting close, closer and closer to all these things, right,

639
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 5: and then he's dead. So the community, I would say

640
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 5: that the majority of the community believes that they're connected.

641
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 5: The mom Sherry, you know, really believes they're connected. And

642
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 5: then you have to look at the the murder of

643
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 5: Jason Ellis. So I'm not sure how a ware you

644
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 5: guys are. Did you talk about him at all?

645
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, we did talk about him a little bit,

646
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: and I was saying, I was just trying to connect

647
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: thoughts because, like you said, how everything's very crypto. I

648
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:02,959
Speaker 1: feel the same way because I've done as much research

649
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 1: on this case as possible, and it's very It's very

650
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 1: easy for me to find out everything that happened up

651
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 1: until the FBI kind of took over, and then it's

652
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: very difficult to understand how they put all the pieces

653
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 1: together to kind of bring the co conspirators in andto

654
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 1: and how Jason Ellos kind of relates to everything.

655
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 5: But the unindicted co conspirators.

656
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 1: Unindicted co conspirators exactly. I was going to ask you

657
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 1: about that too, but you know, it's not clear to

658
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 1: me how Jason is involved other than I'm just trying

659
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 1: to piece things together. But he was a police officer

660
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 1: along with Nick how correct, at the same police department. Yes,

661
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: my interpretation, just from trying to use basic common sense,

662
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 1: is that maybe he knew something or witnessed something or

663
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 1: saw something and then.

664
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, that is the running theory if these are connected.

665
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 5: And by the way, we will have an interview on

666
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 5: Friday's dateline with the FBI. Okay, so there's they're speaking out. Okay,

667
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 5: so yeah, I mean the Jason ellis Uh, when you

668
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 5: ask everyone, no one seems to have this clear link

669
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 5: like oh they got in this big fight, or he

670
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 5: was investigating Nick Howk for drugs or you know, there's

671
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 5: no there's nothing like that that you can say, Oh, well,

672
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 5: there's the motive, you know what I mean. The motive

673
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 5: they believe the family believes is that Nick there may

674
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 5: have been some issue like and that that they believe

675
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 5: Nick is not only involved in you know, this this

676
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 5: murder of Jason, but also Tommy. And that is the

677
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 5: family's feeling, right, that is what they are saying. That

678
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 5: is what they told us in their interviews. You know

679
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 5: that that Nick is somehow involved in this, and you

680
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 5: know they did. They appointed the Attorney General appointed a

681
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 5: special prosecutor, Shane Young, who was asked to look into

682
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 5: the murders of Tommy, Chris Still and Jason. But when

683
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 5: you interview him and you ask him, well, that seems

684
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 5: logical that you know they're all connected, he will not

685
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 5: say that. He will not. He just says, I have

686
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 5: just been appointed to look at these things. I'm not

687
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 5: saying that they're connected.

688
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 1: We don't know, right, you know, I think just for me,

689
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 1: just using brain cells and common sense, it feels to

690
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 1: me that there is some kind of connection, you know,

691
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 1: But we'll have to wait and see.

692
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 2: And what what when you interview.

693
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 1: The FBI, do you think you're gonna I mean, you

694
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 1: think that you're going to learn a lot of new

695
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 1: things that haven't been out there before.

696
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 2: Is that your hope?

697
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 5: Yeah? So then the FBI has been interviewed and they

698
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 5: are currently in the program that has been being finished

699
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 5: as we speak. The team is very feverishly working to

700
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 5: get the episode finished and that'll be a you know,

701
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 5: something that you'll find out on on Dateline.

702
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: Well, I'm super excited to watch that episode because I

703
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 1: feel like I have so many questions, so I'm hoping

704
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 1: that I get a lot more answers when that episode

705
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 1: comes up. Do you mind if I switch gears and

706
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 1: just ask you about the Karen Reid trial?

707
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 2: Did you see?

708
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's all the new I guess evidence that's coming

709
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,399
Speaker 1: forward from Proctor's phone that I guess they were able

710
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 1: to tap into as iCloud, not just the phone.

711
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 5: You know. I was so immersed in that story as well.

712
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 5: That was a wild story and being there I was

713
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 5: there in the courthouse when the pot oh you actually

714
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 5: sitting in the like in this room in the courthouse,

715
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 5: just kind of like on hold, and then where we

716
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:35,840
Speaker 5: got word, you know, and then there's a predict and

717
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 5: then the cheers from outside. Wow, it was so loud.

718
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, what was What was your takeaway?

719
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:47,799
Speaker 1: Because I'll tell you we did a podcast on the

720
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,400
Speaker 1: Karen Reid uh just Karen Reid, and we did a

721
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 1: very in the very beginning. Shane didn't know anything about

722
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:55,879
Speaker 1: Karen Reid at all. So when I just laid out

723
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,439
Speaker 1: the facts of the case, like a very cursory type

724
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 1: of like this happened, he was immediately.

725
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 2: He was like, she did it, She's guilty. She ran

726
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 2: over him.

727
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 1: I mean, that was his takeaway. And I was like, okay, wait,

728
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,839
Speaker 1: now we're going to take a deeper dive into this

729
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 1: whole conspiracy and everything that happened that night. So then

730
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 1: we did another episode. We took a deep dive, and

731
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: then he completely flipped and was like, you know, there's

732
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 1: no way that you can convict this woman. What was

733
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 1: your takeaway from all that? I mean, from my perspective,

734
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 1: I just thought there is so much reasonable doubt going

735
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 1: on that night that if I was sitting on that jury,

736
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 1: I could never convict this woman. I understand that the

737
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 1: logical takeaway is, Okay, she drank too much, he got

738
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 1: out of the car, they had to fight whatever, she

739
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 1: backed into him. But when you hear all the other

740
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: evidence of what happened that night, it's just convict her.

741
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 4: No, they retried her.

742
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 5: It's one of those things where, like, from like a

743
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 5: common sense thing, you know, you're like, like you said,

744
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,799
Speaker 5: it sounds like, yeah, she did it right when you

745
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 5: just lay it out or whatever, But then when you

746
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 5: start going down that rap hole of you know, all

747
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 5: the stuff that came out, you're like, hmm, maybe she didn't,

748
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:09,319
Speaker 5: Maybe she didn't. You go back and forth, maybe she didn't,

749
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,239
Speaker 5: maybe she didn't, maybe she did. But at the you know,

750
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 5: at the very least, is that reasonable doubt which was

751
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:21,240
Speaker 5: opened up, you know, from these text messages that were

752
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:25,800
Speaker 5: you know, sent about her, and and like just I mean, honestly,

753
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 5: we could you guys know, we could sit here forever

754
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 5: and talk about this, but there's so many, so many

755
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 5: things that like didn't add up. So it's kind of

756
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 5: one of those ones where, like you you understand why

757
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 5: the family feels the way they do. Then she did it,

758
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,440
Speaker 5: and then you understand why all these supporters think she

759
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 5: didn't do it. Like it's that's what made it such

760
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 5: a fascinating case. And I interviewed Michael Proctor, okay, and

761
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,480
Speaker 5: he was really upset about how did my you know,

762
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 5: personal text messages? How did they get them? And you know,

763
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:58,959
Speaker 5: and that's something to remember for everybody, like just because

764
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 5: you're on a personal phone doesn't mean you know, Mark's

765
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:04,279
Speaker 5: not want to tap into that, you know, And he

766
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 5: was that that was the one thing that bothered him.

767
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 5: But he definitely was painted as the villain in all

768
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 5: of this. And you know, he acknowledges I never should

769
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 5: have said those things, and you know, you know, it

770
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 5: was like and he's, you know, he's trying to get

771
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 5: his job back. But at this point I.

772
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 1: Think he I think I think I read that he

773
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 1: he's not trying to do that anymore, like something like.

774
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:28,880
Speaker 2: He withdrew whatever.

775
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 5: Oh did Okay?

776
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 2: I believe so yeah, I mean I wouldn't.

777
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:34,800
Speaker 5: Be surprised because I haven't checked in in a while

778
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 5: to see what's going on with you guys. Are I

779
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 5: feel like you guys are more up to date on.

780
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 1: This, well, I mean I try to be, and I'll

781
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:43,759
Speaker 1: tell you just from all the people that listen, I

782
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 1: get so many fans that send me updated information.

783
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 2: Which is nice.

784
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 1: So the reason I knew about the update with Michael

785
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 1: Proctor and Karen Reid was because a fan sent me

786
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,799
Speaker 1: a video clip of talking about You'll have to reinterview

787
00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:00,359
Speaker 1: him and ask him how he feels about them, able

788
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 1: to tap into his iCloud now his right, what is

789
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:04,839
Speaker 1: it called?

790
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 2: Chane? Is that the cloud?

791
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 3: The cloud?

792
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 2: The cloud? Right? Yeah, so all right, so yeah, no,

793
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 2: he was.

794
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,760
Speaker 5: Not none too happy about that obviously because that really

795
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 5: upended his life. But then you know, he shouldn't have

796
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 5: written those things, like you know, those things were crude

797
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 5: and awful and you know, whether whatever his whether he

798
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 5: had a role in this or he didn't have a

799
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 5: role in this in a bad way like that just

800
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,759
Speaker 5: is such a bad look. You know that that he

801
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:35,879
Speaker 5: he texted those things, and that really opened the door

802
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 5: to what you know, the John O'Keefe's family calls the

803
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 5: Karen Reid Show. They feel like this was a production

804
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 5: you know by Alan Jackson. You know that he created

805
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 5: this whole thing, and but he had a lot to

806
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:54,399
Speaker 5: work with.

807
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 1: Well, I mean you can make that, you can say that,

808
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 1: but he he was able to put teeth into because

809
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 1: there was so many things that lent to this possible

810
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 1: conspiracy going on. Did you ever did you ever have

811
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,240
Speaker 1: the opportunity to interview Alan Jackson?

812
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 5: Yes? I did. Yeah, I interviewed him in his office

813
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,840
Speaker 5: in downtown LA and we went down to the garage

814
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,800
Speaker 5: afterwards and we did like a little show and tell

815
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:24,359
Speaker 5: with an suv to talk about you know, the light

816
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 5: that the tail light right. Yeah, he really went over

817
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 5: like why this was impossible? You know that she did this?

818
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 5: And so that was a little show and tell that

819
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 5: we had in the episode.

820
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I tell you I was very impressed by Alan Jackson.

821
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 1: I would say that would be because someone asked me

822
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:43,799
Speaker 1: the other day who would be your dream guest to

823
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:46,760
Speaker 1: come on your podcast? And I said, I said Alan Jackson.

824
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:48,879
Speaker 1: But I was talking to Jen Pedronte when I told

825
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 1: her that, and she said, why would you have a

826
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 1: country singer on your podcast?

827
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 3: And I was like, Jed, is there a country singer

828
00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:57,280
Speaker 3: named Alan Jackson?

829
00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 5: Yes?

830
00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 1: There is. I did not want Alan Jackson the country singer,

831
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 1: even though that would be that would be amazing too.

832
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 2: I would make it work somehow.

833
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 5: But it's so funny because when I was trying to

834
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 5: pull up in my brain you know Alan Jackson's name,

835
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 5: because it's just been a minute, Well, I went, wait,

836
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:13,239
Speaker 5: country singer.

837
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 2: Country singer, Alan Jackson.

838
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:16,360
Speaker 3: Exactly.

839
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 5: I never forget his name because of that.

840
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:31,240
Speaker 2: Exactly. Did you follow Delphi the Delphie murders.

841
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:32,439
Speaker 5: I was on that case as well.

842
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,279
Speaker 1: Okay, I will tell you this is just my own

843
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 1: personal opinion. I think they have the wrong man.

844
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 2: Really, I do the man on the bridge, right, the

845
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 2: man on the bridge.

846
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 5: The bridge, I don't like chilling story, it really is.

847
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 1: I I don't know, it's just something. I just don't

848
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:50,879
Speaker 1: think it's Richard Allen his.

849
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,880
Speaker 3: Interrogation that you felt he was pretty genuine.

850
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:55,879
Speaker 1: Right, I did, And I just felt how he came

851
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 1: up on the radar with the tip that was misplaced,

852
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 1: and I felt like they were trying and make him

853
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 1: fit into it. And then you know, honestly, the whole

854
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,440
Speaker 1: Odin theory out there I thought was ridiculous until I

855
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 1: really took a deep dive into it, and then I

856
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 1: was like, Okay, maybe that's not that crazy, and we

857
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 1: don't know.

858
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 5: I went out there with to the woods with the

859
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:20,719
Speaker 5: defense attorneys and we did a whole thing on the odinism. Yeah,

860
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,319
Speaker 5: and how the sticks were placed and it was on

861
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 5: the tree and everything. You know. Of course, the prosecution

862
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 5: says that's a bunch of you know, right Mularney, mallarkey.

863
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:35,320
Speaker 5: But you know, the defense attorneys are really feel strongly

864
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 5: that there's something to that. That's another one that you

865
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:43,239
Speaker 5: know that there is that like there's some stuff to

866
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 5: work with, you know, was it Richard Allen? I mean,

867
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 5: the biggest mistake if you're on the on the team prosecution,

868
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:54,880
Speaker 5: the biggest mistake that was made was was the the

869
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:58,360
Speaker 5: police officer. But he's like a park police, like the

870
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:06,400
Speaker 5: conservation confer that he interviewed Richard and then didn't like

871
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 5: really think much of it. And he rich Allen like

872
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:11,719
Speaker 5: kind of fits some of the description of Bridgeman and

873
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:15,360
Speaker 5: he's out there. He says that he's out there that morning.

874
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 5: I mean, for me, that was not They were in

875
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 5: the interviews, they were protecting him a little bit. But

876
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 5: I'm like, wow, that is like, for just personal opinion,

877
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,839
Speaker 5: not the best detective work. There, like, you know, at

878
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:29,319
Speaker 5: least bring him in and really drill down on him,

879
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 5: you know, instead of just being like, oh okay and

880
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:33,359
Speaker 5: putting the tip in a you know, it wasn't even

881
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 5: a tip. He interviewed him, the conservation officer. And then

882
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 5: it was a lady who worked for the Sheriff's department,

883
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 5: a volunteer who was constantly just giving her time and

884
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:48,839
Speaker 5: going through all the paperwork, and they were moving offices

885
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,279
Speaker 5: the paperwork, and she found it in there. She was like, Hey,

886
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:54,880
Speaker 5: what about this guy? And they were like, oh my gosh,

887
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 5: how did we miss this? You know, So that's like

888
00:42:58,200 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 5: how that all came about that.

889
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 2: I know, I just I don't know.

890
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 1: When I see his his interviews, I don't know, he

891
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 1: just you know, like when I when I think about

892
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:09,560
Speaker 1: when I watched the interview of when they interviewed bricks Halk,

893
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's to me. I I watch that

894
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:15,879
Speaker 1: and I think this guy, like he gets the phone call, right,

895
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 1: he gets the phone call from his brother. That looks

896
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 1: completely staged. I mean, he can't remember things.

897
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:21,880
Speaker 2: I don't know.

898
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 1: Richard Allen just had a completely different vibe to me.

899
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,799
Speaker 1: And that's just a personal takeaway that I really just

900
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 1: got the feeling that like, he I don't know, And

901
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:31,799
Speaker 1: then I just can't picture that man doing all that

902
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:33,799
Speaker 1: in the short amount of time and across the river

903
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:35,279
Speaker 1: and the whole thing and then back in the car.

904
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:37,880
Speaker 2: Anyway, I could be completely wrong, But.

905
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 5: When you're when you're standing there, like by that bridge, yeah,

906
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 5: there's like now like they built something there, so you

907
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 5: can't because all the kids used to go out there

908
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 5: and they do prom pictures or like you know, they

909
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:53,080
Speaker 5: would take it's when you stand there and you look

910
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 5: at that bridge that those girls went on and then

911
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:57,719
Speaker 5: this man like following them, it is terrifying. It is

912
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:01,840
Speaker 5: so high up and there's no like guardrails or anything,

913
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:06,360
Speaker 5: and there's there's like broken ties and spaces in between.

914
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:09,719
Speaker 5: And I was just like, oh, like the thought of

915
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 5: those girls, it was so haunting and so awful. And

916
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 5: imagine that you're being hunted by this man in that

917
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 5: moment and you're on this thing that's so high up, yeah,

918
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:22,319
Speaker 5: you know, and to get to the other side and

919
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:24,239
Speaker 5: here he comes, and then you have the wherewithal to

920
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 5: hit record on your phone.

921
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 2: Yeah.

922
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:28,920
Speaker 1: And you know what's so interesting is anytime you have

923
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 1: actual footage of someone. I feel like it's always when

924
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:33,759
Speaker 1: you release it to the public, it's always seems like

925
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 1: there's someone that recognizes someone's mannerisms or just yeah, they

926
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 1: look at it and they're like, I know, that's that person.

927
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 1: And the fact that like no one could really identify

928
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:45,799
Speaker 1: exactly who he was or or I don't know.

929
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:47,279
Speaker 2: I just I guess because.

930
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:49,360
Speaker 3: It's just and it's a small town, right, it's a.

931
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 1: Small town, but I guess because he's just it's just

932
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 1: so indistinct. I mean, the car, hearts and the I

933
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 1: don't know, and the jeans and the thing.

934
00:44:57,640 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 3: It's just not enough for us.

935
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:00,359
Speaker 2: This is it's not.

936
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 1: Maybe because I work with the Innocent Center so much,

937
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 1: so I'm so like, you know, but.

938
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,360
Speaker 5: And you know, I just wanted to say your work

939
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:13,320
Speaker 5: is so great, like all the effort you put into

940
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:16,919
Speaker 5: that for those people that you know have had such

941
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:19,759
Speaker 5: a bad shake in life. You know that that they're

942
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 5: I mean, can you imagine spending even a day in

943
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 5: prison for a crime you didn't commit, let alone you know, years.

944
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,359
Speaker 1: I know, and you know, I've become friendly with a

945
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:33,759
Speaker 1: lot of the exonerated persons, and you know, every time

946
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:35,399
Speaker 1: I talk to them. The fact that they have such

947
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:39,840
Speaker 1: good attitudes and that they don't harbor it's so amazing tasting.

948
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:41,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, it really is.

949
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,440
Speaker 5: And that fundraiser was, you know, such a great cause

950
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 5: kind of hijacked by Tamaran.

951
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 2: Gretcher's there, yes, and Tamara hijacked my eye.

952
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 5: Oh that was like the the the clause came out

953
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 5: on Gretchen on that one yelling at Tamras She's walking

954
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,319
Speaker 5: out of the the bar. I was like, darn, that was.

955
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:06,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you know, Grutcher's Grutcher's it turns a little

956
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 1: bit into a more aggressive person when she has Slayd

957
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 1: with her. So it's like, you know, I don't I

958
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 1: have Shade with Shane with me. I gotta I gotta

959
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:16,720
Speaker 1: take it down and Notch, I have to call him down.

960
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:23,800
Speaker 5: Shane's bringing me down.

961
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:26,759
Speaker 2: You have to behave so yeah.

962
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:28,799
Speaker 1: Okay, So let me ask you what would your dream

963
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 1: interview interview be? If you could interview anyone that you

964
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 1: probably interviewed everyone possible, But is there anyone on your

965
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:38,480
Speaker 1: radar that you would love to chat with, dead or alive?

966
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 5: You know, I used to want to interview OJ and

967
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 5: I wrote him for ten years in prison and he

968
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 5: called me right after he got out.

969
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 2: Wow.

970
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 5: I answered the phone. I was on the way to

971
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 5: a shoot and it was an unknown number and I

972
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:54,800
Speaker 5: was like hello. He's like, hey, Andrea, it's OJ. And

973
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:59,839
Speaker 5: I'm like, oh, I was expect let me bowl over. Yeah.

974
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 5: He's like he's like, well, you know, thank you for

975
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 5: for your support. I'm like, no, no, no, no support.

976
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:11,399
Speaker 5: I wrote you letters asking for an interview, right right, right,

977
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 5: wasn't you know supporting you?

978
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 3: Yeah?

979
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 5: And so you know, I had asked him like if

980
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:18,720
Speaker 5: you would do an interview, and then I was supposed

981
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:20,920
Speaker 5: to go to his very he was staying in Vegas.

982
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:24,280
Speaker 5: I was actually out there hosting the Sister Wives reunion.

983
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 5: Oh wow, okay, and uh that's our crossover Real Housewives

984
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:33,440
Speaker 5: Sister Wives and right, and I was supposed to go

985
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 5: out there and then it just it just fell apart.

986
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:37,479
Speaker 5: And then I never you.

987
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 3: Know, Emily had met OJ once in the past, Oh

988
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 3: did you Yeah, Well.

989
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:42,880
Speaker 2: You were with me.

990
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:45,879
Speaker 1: I know, we were in Vegas and we went to dinner.

991
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:48,720
Speaker 1: Where did we go? It wasn't even anywhere on the strip.

992
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:50,480
Speaker 1: We were like outside, like.

993
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 3: Some sushi restaurant off the side.

994
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:54,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, And We just were sitting at a table and

995
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 1: then I turned around and O. J. Simpson was right

996
00:47:57,560 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 1: behind me.

997
00:47:58,160 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 4: Well then and then we turned the other way and

998
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:02,800
Speaker 4: it was a Hell's Angels, Yeah Angels Yes at another

999
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 4: table and.

1000
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:09,719
Speaker 5: My daughter OJ called me another time and I was

1001
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 5: in the shower and I never do this, Like my

1002
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:15,399
Speaker 5: phone rang and my daughter, who was so young at

1003
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 5: the time, I like, I'm I don't know. She was

1004
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:21,799
Speaker 5: like ten, eleven, twelve something, and I never do this,

1005
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:23,280
Speaker 5: but I was like, hey, can you grab the phone?

1006
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:24,440
Speaker 5: Can you answer the phone?

1007
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:24,839
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1008
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:28,360
Speaker 5: She answered it, and she's like hello, and then she's like, Mommy,

1009
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:33,000
Speaker 5: it's someone named OJ on the phone. And then and

1010
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:36,439
Speaker 5: then so she she's in class and like fast forward

1011
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:38,160
Speaker 5: to high school and she's in class and they're talking

1012
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 5: about O. J. Simpson and she's like, well, I actually

1013
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:44,319
Speaker 5: talked to him. And the teacher's like what, like, you

1014
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:47,359
Speaker 5: talked to OJA huh? And she's like, yeah, he called

1015
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:51,360
Speaker 5: my mom and I answered the phone. And then and

1016
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:53,400
Speaker 5: then she's like, wait, why was ogre you talking to

1017
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 5: your mom? And she's like, well, my mom's on dateline

1018
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:57,480
Speaker 5: and she goes, your mom's on dateline?

1019
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:00,560
Speaker 2: How did they not know that? How did they not

1020
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 2: know you were Andrea Canning? How did they not know that?

1021
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 2: I guess I.

1022
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 5: Really must not at that point if you haven't, like

1023
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:09,919
Speaker 5: you know, a bunch of my children in your school,

1024
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:13,439
Speaker 5: like you must really just not watch Dateline at all?

1025
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 4: Right, they or your kids are saying something else about you.

1026
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:21,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know what she works at build a

1027
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 3: bear you know something?

1028
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:22,839
Speaker 5: Yeah? Right?

1029
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, Well.

1030
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:27,839
Speaker 1: Let me ask you, do your children did they Are

1031
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:30,319
Speaker 1: they proud that you're on TV? And like, did they

1032
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:33,680
Speaker 1: tell people? Because Annabell goes back and forth between my

1033
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 1: mom's a housewife and then not wanting people to know

1034
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 1: that I'm a housewife. But she's twelve, she's at that

1035
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 1: that you know, tweet yeah, where like sometimes it's cool

1036
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:46,440
Speaker 1: and then other times she's mortified by it.

1037
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:48,239
Speaker 2: So I think that.

1038
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 5: They they well, first of all, they don't watch Dateline.

1039
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:54,799
Speaker 5: Well that's good, which is a couple of them are

1040
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:57,120
Speaker 5: old enough to watch Dateline. And I'm a little offended

1041
00:49:57,160 --> 00:49:59,880
Speaker 5: at times that they're like they watch these like of

1042
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:05,880
Speaker 5: are things. Yeah, I watched the Menanda's Brothers documentary. I'm like, really,

1043
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 5: but you don't watch Dateline? Okay, Right, so yeah, so

1044
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 5: they're like, whenever they complain if I'm gone on the

1045
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 5: road too much or whatever, I'm like, well, do you

1046
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:16,919
Speaker 5: want me to quit my job? You're like, no, don't

1047
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:19,680
Speaker 5: put your job. So, you know, I think I think

1048
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 5: overall they like it, and they think it's cool, and

1049
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:24,080
Speaker 5: they get to you know, go into the city sometimes

1050
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 5: and go to the Today Show and you'll go on

1051
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 5: set and see different things. And we shoot interviews here.

1052
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 5: Sometimes at my house in the basement, we'll do remote.

1053
00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:37,080
Speaker 5: If we're doing like a remote, we'll do it, you know, downstairs.

1054
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:39,359
Speaker 5: So they they've been around the world and like when

1055
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:42,920
Speaker 5: I say around the world, I mean the TV world world, right,

1056
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:44,960
Speaker 5: And you know, and I used to work for Good

1057
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 5: Morning America for years, so they would they would always

1058
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:51,280
Speaker 5: come on the show. They'd be little guests for Halloween segments,

1059
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:53,759
Speaker 5: or they can here and makeup done in the makeup room.

1060
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 5: And but I think it's been interesting for them, you know,

1061
00:50:57,560 --> 00:50:59,440
Speaker 5: over the years to see how it all works.

1062
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:03,920
Speaker 1: And yeah, okay, one last question, the Ellen Greenberg case.

1063
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 5: Oh oh, is that the sus the notice suicide?

1064
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:10,920
Speaker 2: And yeah, yeah, do you have an opinion.

1065
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:13,719
Speaker 5: On that shocking twist wasn't it like that?

1066
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:15,680
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1067
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:22,080
Speaker 5: Again, right, I I don't know like enough about it.

1068
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:24,879
Speaker 5: Only what I would say is common sense is how

1069
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:27,680
Speaker 5: do you stab yourself in like that many times in

1070
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:30,040
Speaker 5: behind your head, right, isn't it?

1071
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:30,919
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1072
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:33,160
Speaker 1: I believe there were I don't remember exactly how many,

1073
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:36,080
Speaker 1: but there were multiple sabs on her chest, one very

1074
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:38,440
Speaker 1: deep sab that would ended up being the fatal wound,

1075
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:41,799
Speaker 1: and then some fellow ones in the back and then

1076
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 1: maybe I mean, yeah, how does that happen?

1077
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 5: I'm not I'm not, you know, placing blame on anyone

1078
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:52,920
Speaker 5: here in any capacity. I just don't understand, Like, how

1079
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:53,800
Speaker 5: do you do that?

1080
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:55,959
Speaker 2: That's yeah, Like you know, I don't know either.

1081
00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:57,759
Speaker 1: You know what It's one of those where you read

1082
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 1: the headline and it's like, you know, you know, twenty

1083
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:05,240
Speaker 1: stab wounds ruled suicide and your takeaway is that sounds

1084
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:09,239
Speaker 1: absolutely impossible, right, Yeah, you know, once I dug into

1085
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:11,880
Speaker 1: it deeply because we did an we did an episode

1086
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 1: on it. I'll tell you my I leaned a little

1087
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:15,719
Speaker 1: more towards suicide than I did.

1088
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:18,960
Speaker 2: I did, Yeah, And I think what.

1089
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:21,560
Speaker 1: It was for me, and this is just my opinion.

1090
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 1: Most of the wounds were very very shallow hesitation wounds.

1091
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 1: And that's what made me kind of tip more towards

1092
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 1: suicide because I felt as if he murdered her, it

1093
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:33,759
Speaker 1: would have been in the heat of the moment and

1094
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:36,399
Speaker 1: it would have been a rage killing, and I don't

1095
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:39,320
Speaker 1: feel like there would have been all these hesitation wounds,

1096
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:42,560
Speaker 1: and so that's what that's what, you know, That was

1097
00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 1: my takeaway from it.

1098
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:47,040
Speaker 5: Anyway, So I did this Sandred Birchmore case that aired

1099
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:50,399
Speaker 5: in September when you're going back into Karen Reid country. Yeah,

1100
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 5: and that was they said that was a suicide. And

1101
00:52:54,480 --> 00:53:00,000
Speaker 5: you know that she had hanged herself from the doorknob, yeah,

1102
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:01,920
Speaker 5: which I didn't even know that was a thing. By

1103
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:03,640
Speaker 5: the way, like I always think, you know in the movies,

1104
00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:05,719
Speaker 5: you see someone from a door frame, not the door.

1105
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:08,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know that.

1106
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:10,440
Speaker 5: I don't know if you guys talked about that one.

1107
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:11,880
Speaker 2: But we haven't. We haven't.

1108
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 1: The only thing I know is the name and that

1109
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:17,200
Speaker 1: it's connected to Karen Reid. I've had a lot of

1110
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:18,799
Speaker 1: fans reach out and say you need to take a

1111
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:21,560
Speaker 1: deep dive into that. It's it's on our list. Haven't

1112
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 1: gone through it yet, but.

1113
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:27,640
Speaker 5: Very disturbing, and it's so the the police officer, the

1114
00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 5: detective is has, you know, is behind bars right now.

1115
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:36,200
Speaker 5: He's been charged with Sandra Birchmore's murder and he I

1116
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:38,600
Speaker 5: don't believe any trial date has been set. He has

1117
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:42,919
Speaker 5: led not guilty. But you know, that's one where it's

1118
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:47,560
Speaker 5: like that went for years with the family saying like, no,

1119
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:53,760
Speaker 5: she did not take her own life. And finally the FBI, uh,

1120
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:57,240
Speaker 5: you know this, this chief from one of the police

1121
00:53:57,280 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 5: departments involved, She ended up doing an internal affairs investigation

1122
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:04,880
Speaker 5: on this detective that Sander Birchmore was in a relationship with,

1123
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:10,040
Speaker 5: according to the police. And so she does has this

1124
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:13,400
Speaker 5: press conference and just puts it out there that she

1125
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:16,520
Speaker 5: alleges that he had been grooming Sandra Birchmore from this

1126
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:20,560
Speaker 5: Young Explorers program with the police department, and that they

1127
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:24,280
Speaker 5: started this sexual relationship when she was a teenager according

1128
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:27,799
Speaker 5: to the police. And then they end up she ends

1129
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 5: up saying telling him I'm pregnant with your child. And

1130
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:35,880
Speaker 5: so then the really chilling part is he goes over

1131
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:43,320
Speaker 5: to her apartment, which he's confessed, he admitted, not confessed,

1132
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:46,759
Speaker 5: he's acknowledged he went over to an apartment and then

1133
00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:50,200
Speaker 5: she ends up dead and then he goes in. His

1134
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:54,440
Speaker 5: wife delivers their third child within hours of him being

1135
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:59,120
Speaker 5: over at her apartment in a snowstorm. And so they

1136
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:00,839
Speaker 5: were like, he did it, he did it, he did it.

1137
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:04,000
Speaker 5: The family. And then finally the FBI they see this

1138
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:07,040
Speaker 5: press conference you know, by the chief and I'm sure

1139
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:10,520
Speaker 5: the other things that went into that, and they get

1140
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:13,680
Speaker 5: on the case and then he is he's charged by

1141
00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:19,240
Speaker 5: the the US attorney. He was hauled into federal court,

1142
00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:22,319
Speaker 5: and now he's awaiting trial. So I mean, that was

1143
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:26,520
Speaker 5: that's a really disturbing case. Sure, And then it came

1144
00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:31,800
Speaker 5: out last point on that was that according to reports,

1145
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:33,719
Speaker 5: and we did report it in our show as well,

1146
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:37,239
Speaker 5: he didn't It's it turned out he wasn't even the

1147
00:55:37,239 --> 00:55:38,360
Speaker 5: father of her baby.

1148
00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:41,279
Speaker 2: Oh wow, So they did some DNA testing.

1149
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 5: Something they Yeah, so she had never delivered, she was pregnant,

1150
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 5: but this whole thing, they said, the motive was the

1151
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:50,239
Speaker 5: baby and he didn't want, you know, And then it

1152
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:54,360
Speaker 5: turns out you know that in Israel.

1153
00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:57,160
Speaker 1: So yeah, well we're going to take a deep dive

1154
00:55:57,200 --> 00:55:59,480
Speaker 1: into that at some point. But thank you for putting

1155
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:01,040
Speaker 1: that on my radar. I've had a lot of fans

1156
00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:03,120
Speaker 1: reach out about that case. But Andrea, thank you so

1157
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:06,160
Speaker 1: much for coming on today onto Legally Brunette. I appreciate

1158
00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:07,879
Speaker 1: it so much. We would love to have you back

1159
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:10,400
Speaker 1: sometime to talk about other cases because it's so fun

1160
00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:13,640
Speaker 1: to chat with you, and so thank you so much

1161
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:14,400
Speaker 1: for joining us.

1162
00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:16,279
Speaker 5: I appreciate we want to have we want to have

1163
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:17,840
Speaker 5: you on Dateline True Crime Weekly.

1164
00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:18,920
Speaker 2: Yes, I would love that.

1165
00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:21,560
Speaker 5: So we need to set that up. And if anyone

1166
00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:23,680
Speaker 5: wants to follow my stories or know when they're on,

1167
00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:26,839
Speaker 5: just go to my instagram Andrea Canning and you can

1168
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:28,720
Speaker 5: find out whenever things are airing.

1169
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:31,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, so make sure you follow Andrea, make sure you

1170
00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:34,120
Speaker 1: watch Dateline, and we look forward to your new Dateline

1171
00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:36,680
Speaker 1: episode with the Crystal Rogers. And you're in the FBI

1172
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:37,080
Speaker 1: this week.

1173
00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:38,120
Speaker 5: It'll be this week. Yep.

1174
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:38,919
Speaker 2: Okay, that's great.

1175
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:40,520
Speaker 5: I'm control.

1176
00:56:40,719 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 2: Thanks, Andrea appreciate it. Thanks. Okay, guys, make sure you watch.

1177
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:48,879
Speaker 1: Andrea's report on Dateline this Friday on NBC. Check your

1178
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:51,680
Speaker 1: local listings for airtime, and also make sure you follow

1179
00:56:51,719 --> 00:56:58,640
Speaker 1: Andrea Canning on her Instagram.