1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:22,956 --> 00:00:27,876 Speaker 2: Something there is that doesn't love a wall that sends 3 00:00:27,876 --> 00:00:29,916 Speaker 2: the frozen ground swell under it. 4 00:00:31,596 --> 00:00:36,236 Speaker 1: Robert Frost, one of the greatest American poets, reading Mending Wall. 5 00:00:37,596 --> 00:00:40,276 Speaker 2: I let my neighbor know beyond the hill, and on 6 00:00:40,356 --> 00:00:42,636 Speaker 2: a day we meet to walk the line and set 7 00:00:42,676 --> 00:00:43,716 Speaker 2: the wall between us. 8 00:00:44,636 --> 00:00:48,156 Speaker 1: They walk together down the border of their properties, between 9 00:00:48,196 --> 00:00:52,236 Speaker 1: his apple orchard and his neighbor's pine trees. Every spring 10 00:00:52,276 --> 00:00:54,956 Speaker 1: they have to mend the wall, hauling stones to fill 11 00:00:54,956 --> 00:00:58,876 Speaker 1: the gaps. The narrator asks his neighbor, do they really 12 00:00:58,876 --> 00:01:01,356 Speaker 1: need a wall to keep pine and apple trees apart? 13 00:01:02,156 --> 00:01:07,076 Speaker 2: He only says, good fences, my good neighbors. Spring is 14 00:01:07,116 --> 00:01:09,076 Speaker 2: the mischief in me, And I wonder if I could 15 00:01:09,196 --> 00:01:11,316 Speaker 2: put a notion in his head. Why do they make 16 00:01:11,356 --> 00:01:14,436 Speaker 2: good neighbors? Isn't it weather cows? But here there are 17 00:01:14,476 --> 00:01:17,916 Speaker 2: no cows. Before I built a wall, I'd ask to 18 00:01:17,996 --> 00:01:21,196 Speaker 2: know what I was walling in or walling out, and 19 00:01:21,316 --> 00:01:23,116 Speaker 2: to whom I was like to give offence. 20 00:01:27,676 --> 00:01:31,156 Speaker 1: My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, 21 00:01:31,436 --> 00:01:38,636 Speaker 1: my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This episode is 22 00:01:38,676 --> 00:01:42,476 Speaker 1: about the most famous line from mending wall, good fences, 23 00:01:42,676 --> 00:01:47,196 Speaker 1: make good neighbors. Written in nineteen fourteen, as if it 24 00:01:47,236 --> 00:02:05,036 Speaker 1: were yesterday. The historic home of the US Marine Corps 25 00:02:05,436 --> 00:02:08,156 Speaker 1: is the Barracks in Washington, d C. Eighth the night 26 00:02:08,276 --> 00:02:12,676 Speaker 1: Streets near Capitol Hill. From May until the end of August, 27 00:02:12,996 --> 00:02:16,836 Speaker 1: every Friday night, the public is invited for evening parade. 28 00:02:17,516 --> 00:02:20,316 Speaker 3: Good evening, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the oldest 29 00:02:20,356 --> 00:02:24,796 Speaker 3: post of the Corps, Marine Barracks, Washington, d C. Celebrating 30 00:02:24,836 --> 00:02:27,676 Speaker 3: over sixty years of performing evening parades. 31 00:02:27,716 --> 00:02:31,356 Speaker 1: It starts at eight forty five, precisely on the immaculate 32 00:02:31,436 --> 00:02:34,396 Speaker 1: lawn in front of the Commandant's house. The ritual of 33 00:02:34,396 --> 00:02:37,556 Speaker 1: honoring the flag, the famous silent drill, the drum and 34 00:02:37,636 --> 00:02:42,716 Speaker 1: bugle Corps marines in the traditional white with dark blue tunics. 35 00:02:43,076 --> 00:02:54,596 Speaker 1: One hour and fifteen minutes of precision marching. Evening Parade 36 00:02:54,676 --> 00:02:59,236 Speaker 1: was the creation of General Leonard Fielding Chapman, Junior, when 37 00:02:59,236 --> 00:03:02,316 Speaker 1: he assumed the command of the Marine Barracks in nineteen 38 00:03:02,356 --> 00:03:07,276 Speaker 1: fifty seven. Chapman believed Marine parades had become anglicized too 39 00:03:07,356 --> 00:03:12,796 Speaker 1: many theatrical flourishes, trick drills, frivolities like the Queen Anne's salute, 40 00:03:13,076 --> 00:03:16,236 Speaker 1: the small hats. The British favor the heavy double soled 41 00:03:16,236 --> 00:03:22,596 Speaker 1: shoes with cleats. My policy was that we will be regulation. 42 00:03:23,076 --> 00:03:27,356 Speaker 1: Chapman once said, we will be U S Marine Corps regulation. 43 00:03:27,716 --> 00:03:30,436 Speaker 1: We will do everything in accordance with the Marine Corps 44 00:03:30,476 --> 00:03:40,476 Speaker 1: regulations and will do it perfectly. I've met a handful 45 00:03:40,476 --> 00:03:43,916 Speaker 1: of senior military leaders in my life. They're not like CEOs, 46 00:03:44,156 --> 00:03:47,156 Speaker 1: who represent an infinite range of variation on the general 47 00:03:47,196 --> 00:03:50,636 Speaker 1: theme of tall white guy. Generals are the product of 48 00:03:50,676 --> 00:03:54,396 Speaker 1: one of the world's largest and most rigorous meritocracies. To 49 00:03:54,396 --> 00:03:56,796 Speaker 1: get to the top, they've had to be more disciplined 50 00:03:56,916 --> 00:03:59,716 Speaker 1: than the disciplined people, and then at the next level 51 00:03:59,756 --> 00:04:02,996 Speaker 1: up smarter than the smart people, then at the level 52 00:04:03,036 --> 00:04:06,756 Speaker 1: after that, more charismatic than the charismatic people, and on 53 00:04:06,796 --> 00:04:10,196 Speaker 1: and on all the way up to five stars. Generals 54 00:04:10,236 --> 00:04:13,236 Speaker 1: are the winners of a single elimination tournament that goes 55 00:04:13,276 --> 00:04:22,356 Speaker 1: on for thirty years. Chapman was appointed Commandant of the 56 00:04:22,356 --> 00:04:26,076 Speaker 1: Marine Corps in nineteen sixty seven, served with distinction for 57 00:04:26,156 --> 00:04:28,876 Speaker 1: four years during one of the most difficult periods in 58 00:04:28,956 --> 00:04:32,476 Speaker 1: Marine Corps history. He was a Southerner, who loved Lincoln, 59 00:04:32,876 --> 00:04:36,436 Speaker 1: A voracious reader, an intellectual, the man who did as 60 00:04:36,476 --> 00:04:39,276 Speaker 1: much as anyone to bring the Civil rights Revolution to 61 00:04:39,316 --> 00:04:42,956 Speaker 1: the Marine Corps. Chapman was once interviewed by a Marine 62 00:04:42,956 --> 00:04:45,836 Speaker 1: Corps historian, and by the end of the recording, which 63 00:04:45,956 --> 00:04:48,756 Speaker 1: runs for hours, you want to follow him into battle. 64 00:04:50,956 --> 00:04:53,156 Speaker 4: Towards the end of the war, when we were pulling 65 00:04:53,236 --> 00:04:57,156 Speaker 4: out of Vietnam, I came to the decision that we 66 00:04:57,156 --> 00:05:01,676 Speaker 4: were going to clean house, shape up, or ship out. 67 00:05:03,356 --> 00:05:06,156 Speaker 1: Chapman shrank the Marines from three hundred thousand to two 68 00:05:06,236 --> 00:05:09,556 Speaker 1: hundred thousand men, let go every marine that he did 69 00:05:09,556 --> 00:05:13,036 Speaker 1: not measure up, made sure everyone who remained knew what 70 00:05:13,076 --> 00:05:13,756 Speaker 1: the score was. 71 00:05:14,396 --> 00:05:18,796 Speaker 4: And I'd make my speech about tightening up the Ring 72 00:05:18,916 --> 00:05:23,316 Speaker 4: Corps and going back to our standards. And I got 73 00:05:23,316 --> 00:05:27,156 Speaker 4: applauded every time. And it was in such sharp contrast 74 00:05:27,316 --> 00:05:30,956 Speaker 4: to what was happening in the other services. See, the 75 00:05:30,996 --> 00:05:37,516 Speaker 4: other services loosened their standards, you know, long hair beer 76 00:05:37,596 --> 00:05:43,996 Speaker 4: in the barracks, Navy, especially Navy especially. Yeah, we went 77 00:05:44,276 --> 00:05:48,516 Speaker 4: exactly opposite directions. The Navy loosened their standards, so did 78 00:05:48,556 --> 00:05:49,316 Speaker 4: the Army. 79 00:05:50,796 --> 00:05:52,076 Speaker 1: To me, what what did he look like? 80 00:05:52,716 --> 00:05:55,876 Speaker 5: Well, he was very handsome. He was, you know, the 81 00:05:55,956 --> 00:05:58,716 Speaker 5: pictures of him when he was young and in a 82 00:05:58,796 --> 00:06:02,676 Speaker 5: pretty incredibly you know, dashing sort of man. 83 00:06:03,076 --> 00:06:05,676 Speaker 1: This is the general's granddaughter, Danielle Chapman. 84 00:06:06,156 --> 00:06:08,796 Speaker 5: And he was still very handsome when he was in 85 00:06:08,876 --> 00:06:12,476 Speaker 5: his sixties and seventies and tall, you know, he still 86 00:06:12,516 --> 00:06:17,196 Speaker 5: had that military posture to him. Also, just an incredible 87 00:06:17,836 --> 00:06:21,836 Speaker 5: stamina and he actually was very proud of that too. 88 00:06:21,916 --> 00:06:25,756 Speaker 5: On the golf course that until he was in his eighties, 89 00:06:25,836 --> 00:06:28,276 Speaker 5: you know, he walked and carried his clubs, and he 90 00:06:28,276 --> 00:06:31,836 Speaker 5: would really rib his buddies about that, and he would say, 91 00:06:31,876 --> 00:06:33,396 Speaker 5: you know, they would ride in the cart and he 92 00:06:33,396 --> 00:06:38,116 Speaker 5: would say, oh, they're over there riding in the cheeseburger wagon, 93 00:06:38,476 --> 00:06:40,316 Speaker 5: you know. But he was. 94 00:06:40,076 --> 00:06:40,556 Speaker 6: He was. 95 00:06:42,236 --> 00:06:44,236 Speaker 5: Walking and carrying his clubs the whole way. 96 00:06:45,356 --> 00:06:48,476 Speaker 1: General Chapman retired from the Marine Corps in nineteen seventy one, 97 00:06:49,116 --> 00:06:51,196 Speaker 1: but he didn't take a lucrative job in the defense 98 00:06:51,236 --> 00:06:55,316 Speaker 1: industry like so many ex military brass do. Instead, he 99 00:06:55,356 --> 00:06:58,276 Speaker 1: goes to his boss, the Secretary of Defense, and asks 100 00:06:58,276 --> 00:07:01,956 Speaker 1: for help in finding another job in government. He gets 101 00:07:01,956 --> 00:07:05,836 Speaker 1: his wish in nineteen seventy three. He's named commissioner of 102 00:07:05,836 --> 00:07:09,756 Speaker 1: what was then called the Immigration and Naturalization Service, the 103 00:07:09,836 --> 00:07:14,756 Speaker 1: agency responsible for securing the borders of the United States. Now, 104 00:07:14,796 --> 00:07:19,476 Speaker 1: why does he do that? Being head of the Marine 105 00:07:19,476 --> 00:07:23,396 Speaker 1: Corps is a job of enormous prestige. The ion s 106 00:07:23,516 --> 00:07:27,436 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy three was a backwater. Why would someone 107 00:07:27,476 --> 00:07:31,516 Speaker 1: take such a big step down. It's not obvious until 108 00:07:31,556 --> 00:07:36,076 Speaker 1: you think about what Chapman has just been through Vietnam. 109 00:07:36,316 --> 00:07:38,756 Speaker 1: He ran the Marine Corps during the worst years of 110 00:07:38,796 --> 00:07:43,036 Speaker 1: the war. And what was Vietnam? A war about a border. 111 00:07:44,156 --> 00:07:47,156 Speaker 1: The country was split in two, with a communist government 112 00:07:47,236 --> 00:07:49,876 Speaker 1: in the north and a pro Western government in the south, 113 00:07:50,276 --> 00:07:53,436 Speaker 1: and the North kept sending insurgents across the border to 114 00:07:53,436 --> 00:07:55,956 Speaker 1: make trouble in the South. That's why the US went 115 00:07:55,996 --> 00:08:00,076 Speaker 1: to Vietnam to secure the border. The Marines were in 116 00:08:00,116 --> 00:08:01,676 Speaker 1: the thick of it. They were way up in the 117 00:08:01,716 --> 00:08:04,436 Speaker 1: farthest corner of South Vietnam, right on the border with 118 00:08:04,476 --> 00:08:07,676 Speaker 1: the North. At one point, the Secretary of Defense wanted 119 00:08:07,676 --> 00:08:10,276 Speaker 1: a wall built along the border to stop the North 120 00:08:10,356 --> 00:08:13,036 Speaker 1: Vietnamese from trickling in. It was the job of the 121 00:08:13,116 --> 00:08:15,516 Speaker 1: Marine Corps to build it, and they couldn't do it. 122 00:08:15,876 --> 00:08:19,716 Speaker 1: They couldn't secure the border. Nothing worked. Chapman saw the 123 00:08:19,756 --> 00:08:20,956 Speaker 1: failure first hand. 124 00:08:21,876 --> 00:08:26,796 Speaker 7: The trouble with Vietnam for the Marine Corps was that 125 00:08:27,516 --> 00:08:30,236 Speaker 7: the army was in charge of the whole thing. 126 00:08:31,116 --> 00:08:34,956 Speaker 1: Chapman Son Walton joined the Marines and served in Vietnam. 127 00:08:35,196 --> 00:08:39,436 Speaker 7: And the Marines that were there, my dad had no 128 00:08:40,836 --> 00:08:47,236 Speaker 7: tactical control. In other words, he couldn't tell the twenty 129 00:08:47,276 --> 00:08:50,916 Speaker 7: six Marines to leave Kisson and go somewhere else. 130 00:08:52,196 --> 00:08:55,396 Speaker 1: General Chapman would make the long journey to Vietnam many times, 131 00:08:55,756 --> 00:08:58,676 Speaker 1: but all he could offer was moral support. There's a 132 00:08:58,716 --> 00:09:01,956 Speaker 1: moment in his Oral History when Chapman describes the orders 133 00:09:01,956 --> 00:09:04,636 Speaker 1: that came down from the Pentagon when the US military 134 00:09:04,676 --> 00:09:08,396 Speaker 1: shipped out of Vietnam. Each branch of the military was 135 00:09:08,396 --> 00:09:11,356 Speaker 1: supposed to pack up and send home anything worth more 136 00:09:11,396 --> 00:09:15,316 Speaker 1: than fifty dollars. Chapman said, no, the Marines would bring 137 00:09:15,356 --> 00:09:17,516 Speaker 1: home everything worth five dollars or more. 138 00:09:18,036 --> 00:09:21,916 Speaker 4: Furthermore, I issued an order that we'd leave our spaces 139 00:09:21,996 --> 00:09:28,076 Speaker 4: in Vietnam ready for inspection, everything cleaned up, all the 140 00:09:28,156 --> 00:09:34,556 Speaker 4: trash buried, all the temporary buildings knocked down and disposed of. 141 00:09:35,716 --> 00:09:38,556 Speaker 4: And we did that too. We lived and left every 142 00:09:38,596 --> 00:09:44,276 Speaker 4: one of our areas in impeccable condition, ready for inspection. 143 00:09:45,556 --> 00:09:47,956 Speaker 1: That's what the Marine Corps was reduced to in Vietnam, 144 00:09:48,556 --> 00:09:51,956 Speaker 1: being the best at tiding up behind them. How could 145 00:09:51,956 --> 00:09:55,316 Speaker 1: someone like Chapman be satisfied with that? If he couldn't 146 00:09:55,356 --> 00:09:58,956 Speaker 1: defend the borders of South Vietnam, then maybe running thes 147 00:09:59,156 --> 00:10:00,396 Speaker 1: would be his second chance. 148 00:10:00,996 --> 00:10:05,836 Speaker 7: He was like nothing better than to be able to say, yes, 149 00:10:06,676 --> 00:10:10,636 Speaker 7: the border is secure, mister Secretary, was the interior the 150 00:10:10,676 --> 00:10:11,836 Speaker 7: border is now secure. 151 00:10:19,476 --> 00:10:23,236 Speaker 1: In the nineteen seventies, a young sociologist named Douglas Massey 152 00:10:23,516 --> 00:10:28,436 Speaker 1: became interested in the subject of Mexican migration. It was 153 00:10:28,476 --> 00:10:32,516 Speaker 1: then as now a matter of political significance, but Massey 154 00:10:32,636 --> 00:10:38,156 Speaker 1: was struck by how little was actually known about the problem. 155 00:10:38,196 --> 00:10:42,196 Speaker 1: Nobody really understood exactly where migrants were coming from, or 156 00:10:42,276 --> 00:10:45,796 Speaker 1: exactly where they were going, or for that matter, what 157 00:10:45,876 --> 00:10:48,236 Speaker 1: they were doing once they got to the US, and 158 00:10:48,276 --> 00:10:53,756 Speaker 1: what happened to the families they left behind. Sociologists are 159 00:10:53,796 --> 00:10:56,956 Speaker 1: the great note takers of the social sciences. They're used 160 00:10:56,996 --> 00:11:00,076 Speaker 1: to projects that stretch out for years, that even consume 161 00:11:00,316 --> 00:11:04,356 Speaker 1: entire careers. So Massey decided to be a good sociologist 162 00:11:04,676 --> 00:11:09,756 Speaker 1: and study migration properly. He found a partner, a mexicanthropologists 163 00:11:09,836 --> 00:11:13,676 Speaker 1: named Jorge Durand, and the two of them began systematically 164 00:11:13,756 --> 00:11:16,436 Speaker 1: interviewing families of migrants around Mexico. 165 00:11:17,716 --> 00:11:20,796 Speaker 8: We pick communities. We pick four to six communities every year. 166 00:11:21,196 --> 00:11:25,396 Speaker 8: We do a complete household roster and collect basic sociodemographic 167 00:11:25,476 --> 00:11:29,956 Speaker 8: information on everybody in the household, plus detailed information on 168 00:11:30,036 --> 00:11:32,556 Speaker 8: everybody's first and last trip to the United States and 169 00:11:32,556 --> 00:11:34,156 Speaker 8: the total number of trips they've taken. 170 00:11:35,036 --> 00:11:39,236 Speaker 1: The survey is called the Mexican Migration Project. After thirty years, 171 00:11:39,276 --> 00:11:43,876 Speaker 1: it's massive, millions of life years of information, case histories, 172 00:11:44,196 --> 00:11:49,236 Speaker 1: extraordinary detail. It's the gold standard. This has got to 173 00:11:49,236 --> 00:11:53,596 Speaker 1: be one of the world's biggest migration databases. 174 00:11:54,316 --> 00:11:58,956 Speaker 8: It's certainly the biggest and most reliable on Mexico US migration. 175 00:11:59,396 --> 00:12:01,236 Speaker 8: When the government wants to know what goes on, they 176 00:12:01,276 --> 00:12:04,796 Speaker 8: don't go to the border Patrol because their data are allowsy. 177 00:12:05,076 --> 00:12:06,876 Speaker 8: They come to the Mexican Migration Project. 178 00:12:07,156 --> 00:12:10,036 Speaker 1: In all of your work with this project, was there 179 00:12:10,036 --> 00:12:12,716 Speaker 1: anything you ran across that really surprised you? 180 00:12:13,676 --> 00:12:16,316 Speaker 8: I guess what surprised me. In the late seventies, when 181 00:12:16,356 --> 00:12:19,356 Speaker 8: I first saw this was just how routine it had become, 182 00:12:19,476 --> 00:12:23,316 Speaker 8: and how institutionalized the circulation was, and how it was 183 00:12:23,316 --> 00:12:25,996 Speaker 8: woven into the fabric of Mexican life at the time. 184 00:12:27,436 --> 00:12:32,956 Speaker 1: How institutionalized the circulation was. The principal finding of the 185 00:12:32,996 --> 00:12:36,436 Speaker 1: Mexican Migration Project is that Mexican migration to the United 186 00:12:36,436 --> 00:12:38,436 Speaker 1: States has a distinctive pattern. 187 00:12:38,796 --> 00:12:40,196 Speaker 8: It's overwhelmingly circular. 188 00:12:41,156 --> 00:12:43,196 Speaker 1: Now, what does circular mean? 189 00:12:43,316 --> 00:12:46,596 Speaker 8: Exactly means they work seasonally in the United States and 190 00:12:46,636 --> 00:12:50,116 Speaker 8: return home on an annual basis to be with their families. 191 00:12:50,476 --> 00:12:53,196 Speaker 1: So these workers there are they leaving their families back 192 00:12:53,236 --> 00:12:53,756 Speaker 1: in Mexico. 193 00:12:53,796 --> 00:12:59,516 Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, it's overwhelmingly male, young, young males. And the 194 00:13:00,076 --> 00:13:04,036 Speaker 8: typical pattern is you go for several times to earn 195 00:13:04,076 --> 00:13:05,596 Speaker 8: some money to help you back home. 196 00:13:06,276 --> 00:13:09,276 Speaker 1: What made the back and forth circulation possible was the 197 00:13:09,276 --> 00:13:11,756 Speaker 1: fact that for most of the twentieth century, the border 198 00:13:11,756 --> 00:13:15,356 Speaker 1: between Mexico and the United States was porous, more of 199 00:13:15,356 --> 00:13:17,836 Speaker 1: a line on a map than an actual border. The 200 00:13:17,876 --> 00:13:20,596 Speaker 1: border patrol was a tiny force in those years. There 201 00:13:20,596 --> 00:13:24,436 Speaker 1: were no walls, no surveillance drones. If you got stopped, 202 00:13:24,716 --> 00:13:26,836 Speaker 1: you got turned around and sent back home. 203 00:13:27,156 --> 00:13:32,116 Speaker 6: Then you tried again, our family is mainly a family 204 00:13:32,276 --> 00:13:35,116 Speaker 6: that was born and raised in the border area. 205 00:13:35,756 --> 00:13:40,716 Speaker 1: Carlos Morentez, a labor organizer and former migrant worker, talking 206 00:13:40,796 --> 00:13:44,716 Speaker 1: about his childhood in the nineteen sixties. Growing up in Warez, Mexico, 207 00:13:47,396 --> 00:13:49,516 Speaker 1: He and his friends used to swim across the Rio 208 00:13:49,516 --> 00:13:52,916 Speaker 1: Grande carrying watermelons that they would sell on the American side, 209 00:13:53,356 --> 00:13:55,356 Speaker 1: like the river was a pond in their backyard. 210 00:13:56,436 --> 00:13:59,436 Speaker 6: Within a Hella scenes that we were living in two 211 00:13:59,516 --> 00:14:06,716 Speaker 6: different countries. To us being children means that you know 212 00:14:07,396 --> 00:14:11,276 Speaker 6: that we were living in a big with two neighborhoods, 213 00:14:11,556 --> 00:14:15,716 Speaker 6: one south of the river, one north of the river. 214 00:14:17,076 --> 00:14:20,276 Speaker 1: What Marentees is saying in economic terms is that the 215 00:14:20,316 --> 00:14:24,236 Speaker 1: cost of crossing was effectively zero. It was free, and 216 00:14:24,316 --> 00:14:27,156 Speaker 1: what happens when something is free, you use as much 217 00:14:27,156 --> 00:14:27,956 Speaker 1: of it as you can. 218 00:14:30,876 --> 00:14:35,436 Speaker 8: Usually they leave in February March as the seasons start 219 00:14:35,476 --> 00:14:41,196 Speaker 8: picking up, and then return in December for the holidays 220 00:14:41,476 --> 00:14:44,716 Speaker 8: and there's a big fiesta in migrant sending towns. 221 00:14:45,636 --> 00:14:48,516 Speaker 1: Massi is saying that Mexico was where family and roots were, 222 00:14:48,876 --> 00:14:52,116 Speaker 1: it was cheap and close. America was where money could 223 00:14:52,116 --> 00:14:55,956 Speaker 1: be made easily and quickly. This is not the way, 224 00:14:56,116 --> 00:14:58,836 Speaker 1: say Jewish immigrants came to the United States in the 225 00:14:58,916 --> 00:15:02,476 Speaker 1: nineteenth century. They didn't go back to Eastern Europe every summer, 226 00:15:03,276 --> 00:15:05,996 Speaker 1: nor did the Italians who came over in the same period. 227 00:15:06,716 --> 00:15:09,556 Speaker 1: Entire villages moved en mass from southern Italy the United 228 00:15:09,596 --> 00:15:14,516 Speaker 1: States permanently. The price of returning where they came from 229 00:15:14,996 --> 00:15:19,076 Speaker 1: was not zero. Their homeland was not welcoming, and even 230 00:15:19,116 --> 00:15:21,436 Speaker 1: if it were, the cost of crossing the ocean was 231 00:15:21,476 --> 00:15:26,556 Speaker 1: so high that it could not be done routinely. But 232 00:15:26,756 --> 00:15:31,956 Speaker 1: Mexican migration was different. Carlos Morentez remembers his grandfather telling 233 00:15:31,996 --> 00:15:36,076 Speaker 1: him that he wanted to return to Mexico to Zakitacus. 234 00:15:37,196 --> 00:15:41,596 Speaker 6: So the attraction to go back to Mexico will be 235 00:15:41,756 --> 00:15:45,316 Speaker 6: to go back to your real homeland, to the rural 236 00:15:45,356 --> 00:15:52,036 Speaker 6: community that you left behind, with families, with your history, 237 00:15:52,196 --> 00:16:00,276 Speaker 6: with everything the old your identity. 238 00:16:00,356 --> 00:16:02,956 Speaker 1: This is not the story the United States tells itself. 239 00:16:03,556 --> 00:16:06,076 Speaker 1: The inscription on the Statue of Liberty does not read 240 00:16:06,316 --> 00:16:09,956 Speaker 1: give me you're tired, you're poor, your huddled masses yearning 241 00:16:09,996 --> 00:16:12,796 Speaker 1: to breathe free for six months until you make enough 242 00:16:12,796 --> 00:16:15,596 Speaker 1: money to go home again. When we think of immigration, 243 00:16:15,956 --> 00:16:19,076 Speaker 1: we think of the Jewish and the Italian model permanence. 244 00:16:22,156 --> 00:16:26,876 Speaker 1: Second thing, circular immigration is very hard to measure. Border 245 00:16:26,876 --> 00:16:29,716 Speaker 1: controls are designed to count the number of people coming in, 246 00:16:30,276 --> 00:16:33,276 Speaker 1: not the number of people leaving, because we assume the 247 00:16:33,356 --> 00:16:36,396 Speaker 1: number coming in is what matters, which it is in 248 00:16:36,436 --> 00:16:40,036 Speaker 1: most cases, but not in the case of Mexico, because 249 00:16:40,076 --> 00:16:42,956 Speaker 1: if a huge group of people eventually go back home again, 250 00:16:43,476 --> 00:16:47,556 Speaker 1: the only number that matters is net migration those who 251 00:16:47,636 --> 00:16:55,556 Speaker 1: come in minus those who go home. And thirdly, most importantly, 252 00:16:56,276 --> 00:17:00,556 Speaker 1: circular migration is the result of a zero cost border crossing. 253 00:17:01,196 --> 00:17:03,396 Speaker 1: It is what happens when you can swim across the 254 00:17:03,476 --> 00:17:06,796 Speaker 1: Rio Grande or walk from Warez in Mexico to al 255 00:17:06,836 --> 00:17:12,436 Speaker 1: Paso in Texas. So what happens to circular migration when 256 00:17:12,476 --> 00:17:17,676 Speaker 1: the cost of migrating is no longer zero. One of 257 00:17:17,716 --> 00:17:20,756 Speaker 1: the things that General Leonard Chapman heard when he took 258 00:17:20,836 --> 00:17:25,316 Speaker 1: over the IS was that his predecessor had never left Washington, DC. 259 00:17:26,196 --> 00:17:29,196 Speaker 1: For someone coming from the Marine Corps, that was unthinkable. 260 00:17:29,876 --> 00:17:34,156 Speaker 1: Leaders review their troops, so Chapman set out to visit 261 00:17:34,556 --> 00:17:38,996 Speaker 1: everys Field office, close to four hundred of them all 262 00:17:38,996 --> 00:17:41,196 Speaker 1: over the world, some with no more than two or 263 00:17:41,196 --> 00:17:43,116 Speaker 1: three people, and it took me. 264 00:17:43,076 --> 00:17:45,516 Speaker 9: Three years to do it, but I did. I got 265 00:17:45,516 --> 00:17:49,076 Speaker 9: to every single one. I'm real least wont so. I 266 00:17:49,116 --> 00:17:55,036 Speaker 9: spent a tremendous amount of time traveling talking to my troops, 267 00:17:55,076 --> 00:17:55,716 Speaker 9: for whom. 268 00:17:55,476 --> 00:17:56,996 Speaker 4: I built up a very high regard. 269 00:17:58,196 --> 00:18:02,316 Speaker 1: Chapman modernized the agency. When it came to information management, 270 00:18:02,836 --> 00:18:06,436 Speaker 1: he thought thes was thirty years behind the Marine Corps. 271 00:18:06,836 --> 00:18:09,676 Speaker 1: Chapman set up a public affairs office, first in the 272 00:18:09,716 --> 00:18:13,396 Speaker 1: agency's history. He became a familiar face on Capitol Hill, 273 00:18:13,996 --> 00:18:17,276 Speaker 1: and the more he learned, the more alarmed he became. 274 00:18:18,076 --> 00:18:21,996 Speaker 1: There was, as he put it, a general laxity in 275 00:18:22,036 --> 00:18:25,956 Speaker 1: the enforcement of immigration laws. For goodness sake, kids were 276 00:18:25,996 --> 00:18:29,476 Speaker 1: swimming across the Rio Grande, selling their watermelons and then 277 00:18:29,516 --> 00:18:32,276 Speaker 1: going back home again. People were treating the border like 278 00:18:32,316 --> 00:18:33,716 Speaker 1: it was just a line on a map. 279 00:18:34,796 --> 00:18:39,076 Speaker 10: I mean, it's easy to inventage. Yes, twenty five million, 280 00:18:39,516 --> 00:18:48,396 Speaker 10: fifty million, seventy five million. Why not, there's no machinery 281 00:18:48,436 --> 00:18:49,916 Speaker 10: to stop them. 282 00:18:50,156 --> 00:18:53,476 Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy three, when Chapman took over the Ions, 283 00:18:53,916 --> 00:18:58,276 Speaker 1: the cost of crossing the Mexican border was effectively zero. 284 00:18:58,556 --> 00:19:01,236 Speaker 1: By the time he left in nineteen seventy seven, it 285 00:19:01,356 --> 00:19:08,236 Speaker 1: was not, and so it begins. In nineteen eighty six 286 00:19:08,676 --> 00:19:12,916 Speaker 1: comes the Immigration Reform and Control Act, which militarizes the border. 287 00:19:13,476 --> 00:19:16,876 Speaker 1: Then Operation Blockade, which diffens up the border crossing in 288 00:19:16,916 --> 00:19:21,116 Speaker 1: El Pasa, Operation Gatekeeper, which diffens up the border crossing 289 00:19:21,116 --> 00:19:25,516 Speaker 1: in San Diego. The budget of the border patrol between 290 00:19:25,556 --> 00:19:32,396 Speaker 1: the mid nineteen eighties and twenty ten increases tenfold. And 291 00:19:32,436 --> 00:19:35,556 Speaker 1: then today with the Attorney General of the United States 292 00:19:35,836 --> 00:19:40,396 Speaker 1: sometimes sounds like Commandant Jefferson Sessions. 293 00:19:40,036 --> 00:19:43,476 Speaker 11: I have put in place a zero tolerance policy or 294 00:19:43,556 --> 00:19:48,236 Speaker 11: illegal entry on our Southwest border. If you cross the 295 00:19:48,316 --> 00:19:51,756 Speaker 11: border unlawfully, then we will prosecute you. 296 00:19:52,276 --> 00:19:53,076 Speaker 2: Is that simple. 297 00:19:56,636 --> 00:19:59,716 Speaker 1: The cost of crossing the border has been escalating for 298 00:19:59,796 --> 00:20:03,196 Speaker 1: a generation, and it began with Leonard Chapman. 299 00:20:04,276 --> 00:20:05,636 Speaker 4: We ran a gallup. 300 00:20:05,236 --> 00:20:08,236 Speaker 9: Hole right after our first got there that showed that 301 00:20:08,396 --> 00:20:10,156 Speaker 9: over something like fifteen percent of the. 302 00:20:10,156 --> 00:20:13,276 Speaker 12: American people had ever heard of the problem. When I 303 00:20:13,476 --> 00:20:17,756 Speaker 12: left three years later and we had another gallon role 304 00:20:19,396 --> 00:20:21,476 Speaker 12: and that over eighty. 305 00:20:21,236 --> 00:20:22,676 Speaker 10: Five had heard of him. 306 00:20:23,716 --> 00:20:26,996 Speaker 1: In his years in office, Chapman made two hundred and 307 00:20:27,116 --> 00:20:30,316 Speaker 1: fifty speeches across the United States. This is at the 308 00:20:30,356 --> 00:20:34,196 Speaker 1: same time that he's personally visiting every IONS field office 309 00:20:34,636 --> 00:20:38,476 Speaker 1: and overseeing the complete overhaul of the agency and making 310 00:20:38,476 --> 00:20:42,396 Speaker 1: his argument over and again on Capitol Hill and giving 311 00:20:42,476 --> 00:20:46,636 Speaker 1: hundreds of press interviews. The United States went from an 312 00:20:46,716 --> 00:20:50,236 Speaker 1: IONS headed by someone who never left his desk to 313 00:20:50,316 --> 00:20:53,396 Speaker 1: an agency headed by someone who couldn't stay at his desk. 314 00:20:53,756 --> 00:20:56,156 Speaker 1: He was relentless wake in America. 315 00:20:56,956 --> 00:20:59,956 Speaker 4: We're telling America about our problems. Then though they had. 316 00:21:01,396 --> 00:21:05,316 Speaker 1: Americans didn't think they had an illegal immigration problem. Leonard 317 00:21:05,396 --> 00:21:17,076 Speaker 1: Chapman convinced them that they did. When I was fourteen 318 00:21:17,356 --> 00:21:20,116 Speaker 1: growing up in Canada, I went to a week long 319 00:21:20,196 --> 00:21:23,396 Speaker 1: track and field training camp at the International Peace Garden. 320 00:21:24,196 --> 00:21:27,236 Speaker 1: It's a park straddling the border between North Dakota and 321 00:21:27,276 --> 00:21:31,516 Speaker 1: the Canadian province of Manitoba. I go for long runs 322 00:21:31,556 --> 00:21:34,916 Speaker 1: each morning with two friends. One day we noticed a 323 00:21:34,956 --> 00:21:38,276 Speaker 1: diner on the American side, so we hopped the fence 324 00:21:38,396 --> 00:21:42,476 Speaker 1: and got a burger. I say fence because the border 325 00:21:42,476 --> 00:21:45,996 Speaker 1: and nets Stretcher Prairie was just a fence, the type 326 00:21:45,996 --> 00:21:48,796 Speaker 1: that someone in the suburbs might have around their backyard. 327 00:21:49,476 --> 00:21:51,916 Speaker 1: On our way back to Canada, we were spotted by 328 00:21:51,956 --> 00:21:55,356 Speaker 1: a border patrol officer. He arrested us, put us in 329 00:21:55,356 --> 00:21:57,156 Speaker 1: the back of his car, and took us to the 330 00:21:57,196 --> 00:22:00,036 Speaker 1: nearest as office. We had to put our names in 331 00:22:00,076 --> 00:22:03,036 Speaker 1: a book underneath a big photo of President Jimmy Carter. 332 00:22:03,716 --> 00:22:05,956 Speaker 1: I decided to be clever and wrote, my name is 333 00:22:05,996 --> 00:22:09,516 Speaker 1: William F. Buckley. Then we got dropped off back at 334 00:22:09,516 --> 00:22:16,756 Speaker 1: the border fence with a stern lecture. When I got 335 00:22:16,796 --> 00:22:20,076 Speaker 1: home and told my parents, they found the whole thing hilarious, 336 00:22:20,596 --> 00:22:24,476 Speaker 1: but as you can imagine, it left an impression. That 337 00:22:24,556 --> 00:22:27,196 Speaker 1: Burger at the diner was my first visit to the 338 00:22:27,276 --> 00:22:29,836 Speaker 1: United States and they ended up in the back of 339 00:22:29,836 --> 00:22:35,636 Speaker 1: a patrol car. I first read Robert Frost's Mending Wall 340 00:22:35,756 --> 00:22:39,036 Speaker 1: not long afterwards in school. The poem is a back 341 00:22:39,076 --> 00:22:41,356 Speaker 1: and forth between a man and his neighbor over the 342 00:22:41,436 --> 00:22:45,276 Speaker 1: value of their fence. One side says, good fences make 343 00:22:45,316 --> 00:22:49,076 Speaker 1: good neighbors. The other side, the narrator says, maybe not. 344 00:22:49,676 --> 00:22:51,676 Speaker 1: It all depends on who the fence is keeping in 345 00:22:52,436 --> 00:22:56,716 Speaker 1: or out. Right from my first read, I sided with 346 00:22:56,756 --> 00:22:59,276 Speaker 1: the narrator because all I could think of was the 347 00:22:59,316 --> 00:23:02,836 Speaker 1: fence I'd just jumped between Manitoba and North Dakota. We 348 00:23:02,836 --> 00:23:05,396 Speaker 1: were fourteen year olds, and the fact that there wasn't 349 00:23:05,476 --> 00:23:07,596 Speaker 1: much of a fence between the countries at that point 350 00:23:08,036 --> 00:23:10,716 Speaker 1: meant that we could do normal fourteen year old things 351 00:23:11,196 --> 00:23:14,036 Speaker 1: like get a burger. Would a better fence there have 352 00:23:14,116 --> 00:23:17,516 Speaker 1: made us better neighbors or would we have just gone hungry? 353 00:23:18,316 --> 00:23:21,876 Speaker 1: Frost neighbor thinks good fences solve problems. And the funny 354 00:23:21,876 --> 00:23:24,116 Speaker 1: thing about that poem is how many people agree with him. 355 00:23:24,996 --> 00:23:27,676 Speaker 1: But do good fences make good neighbors or do they 356 00:23:27,796 --> 00:23:32,876 Speaker 1: just disrupt normal patterns of behavior? So what happened when 357 00:23:32,916 --> 00:23:36,396 Speaker 1: the Mexican border became a good fence? Well, the historical 358 00:23:36,476 --> 00:23:40,636 Speaker 1: Mexican migration pattern was that young men came to America, worked, 359 00:23:40,956 --> 00:23:44,836 Speaker 1: went home, came back, went home again. That's what Douglas 360 00:23:44,836 --> 00:23:47,596 Speaker 1: Massey documented in the Mexican Migration Project. 361 00:23:48,236 --> 00:23:51,716 Speaker 8: Our data from the Mexican Migration Project indicate that between 362 00:23:51,836 --> 00:23:55,876 Speaker 8: nineteen sixty five and nineteen eighty five, eighty five percent 363 00:23:55,916 --> 00:23:58,596 Speaker 8: of all undocumented entries were offset by departures, so the 364 00:23:58,676 --> 00:24:00,556 Speaker 8: net influenced small. 365 00:24:00,756 --> 00:24:04,436 Speaker 1: Between nineteen sixty five and nineteen eighty five, lots and 366 00:24:04,476 --> 00:24:07,356 Speaker 1: lots of Mexican migrants came to the United States without 367 00:24:07,436 --> 00:24:11,956 Speaker 1: legal status. Almost all of them eventually went home, but 368 00:24:12,036 --> 00:24:15,956 Speaker 1: then the border patrol was expanded, the crossing opportunities through 369 00:24:15,956 --> 00:24:19,556 Speaker 1: El Paso and San Diego were shut down, and migrants 370 00:24:19,636 --> 00:24:23,356 Speaker 1: had to adapt. They shifted from the fortified crossings in 371 00:24:23,396 --> 00:24:26,396 Speaker 1: El Paso and San Diego to the most brutal parts 372 00:24:26,476 --> 00:24:27,436 Speaker 1: of southern Arizona. 373 00:24:27,996 --> 00:24:30,516 Speaker 8: Now you're out in the middle of high desert, open desert. 374 00:24:30,756 --> 00:24:33,916 Speaker 8: It's bitterly cold at night, boiling hot during the day. 375 00:24:34,076 --> 00:24:38,556 Speaker 8: There's no water, and death'smount And when you're out in 376 00:24:38,556 --> 00:24:42,276 Speaker 8: the middle of nowhere, it's more costly to stage crossing. 377 00:24:43,036 --> 00:24:46,436 Speaker 1: The financial incentive to come to the United States remains, 378 00:24:47,036 --> 00:24:50,156 Speaker 1: but returning home is now suddenly so risky that you 379 00:24:50,236 --> 00:24:53,676 Speaker 1: don't do it every six months or every Christmas or 380 00:24:53,716 --> 00:24:57,116 Speaker 1: maybe even ever. You stay, and. 381 00:24:56,796 --> 00:25:01,396 Speaker 8: As the male workers stay longer and longer, family unification occurs. 382 00:25:01,476 --> 00:25:04,956 Speaker 8: They send for their wives and younger children, and those 383 00:25:04,996 --> 00:25:06,596 Speaker 8: younger children are today's dreamers. 384 00:25:07,396 --> 00:25:10,836 Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty, what was likelihood of a Mexican migrant 385 00:25:10,916 --> 00:25:13,756 Speaker 1: returning home after his first trip to the United States. 386 00:25:14,436 --> 00:25:17,796 Speaker 1: According to the Mexican Migration Project's data, it was about 387 00:25:17,836 --> 00:25:25,396 Speaker 1: fifty percent. By twenty ten, it's zero. We built a 388 00:25:25,436 --> 00:25:29,436 Speaker 1: wall to keep Mexican migrants out. In fact, the wall 389 00:25:29,476 --> 00:25:32,916 Speaker 1: has kept them in. People who would otherwise have gone 390 00:25:32,956 --> 00:25:37,596 Speaker 1: home stayed so long they put down roots. In March 391 00:25:37,636 --> 00:25:41,116 Speaker 1: of twenty sixteen, Douglas Massey, along with Jorge Durand and 392 00:25:41,196 --> 00:25:44,756 Speaker 1: Karen Prinn, published a brilliant paper in the American Journal 393 00:25:44,836 --> 00:25:49,916 Speaker 1: of Sociology, Why Border Enforcement Backfired, in which they ask 394 00:25:49,996 --> 00:25:54,316 Speaker 1: a hypothetical question, what would have happened if the United 395 00:25:54,356 --> 00:25:58,316 Speaker 1: States had done nothing over the past thirty years, frozen 396 00:25:58,396 --> 00:26:01,156 Speaker 1: the budget and staff of the border patrol at nineteen 397 00:26:01,196 --> 00:26:06,476 Speaker 1: eighty six levels allowed for some circular migration. The researchers 398 00:26:06,636 --> 00:26:11,316 Speaker 1: estimate the undocumented Mexican population of the US would be 399 00:26:11,356 --> 00:26:15,836 Speaker 1: about a third lower a third lower than it is now. 400 00:26:17,116 --> 00:26:19,636 Speaker 1: This is according to the people who know more than 401 00:26:19,716 --> 00:26:23,316 Speaker 1: anyone else about Mexican migration, who have access to one 402 00:26:23,316 --> 00:26:27,996 Speaker 1: of the biggest immigration databases in the world. And what 403 00:26:28,156 --> 00:26:31,436 Speaker 1: is their conclusion that the attempt to solve the problem 404 00:26:31,556 --> 00:26:34,996 Speaker 1: of illegal Mexican migrants is what has caused the problem 405 00:26:35,236 --> 00:26:39,596 Speaker 1: of illegal Mexican migrants. You can just hear the frustration 406 00:26:39,916 --> 00:26:41,596 Speaker 1: in Douglas Massey's voice. 407 00:26:42,316 --> 00:26:44,436 Speaker 8: For me I've been watching this train wreck in real 408 00:26:44,516 --> 00:26:48,396 Speaker 8: time for the past two decades, really, and I kept 409 00:26:48,436 --> 00:26:50,636 Speaker 8: trying to tell people that, you know, when it comes 410 00:26:50,676 --> 00:26:53,756 Speaker 8: to border enforcement, less is more, and if you militarize 411 00:26:53,756 --> 00:26:56,276 Speaker 8: the border, you're going to produce a larger undocumented population. 412 00:26:56,356 --> 00:26:59,436 Speaker 8: I said this before the House Judiciary Committee, the Senate 413 00:26:59,516 --> 00:27:02,476 Speaker 8: Judiciary Committee Subcommittee on Immigration. 414 00:27:02,636 --> 00:27:06,196 Speaker 1: And what happens after Massi testifies the same thing happens 415 00:27:06,276 --> 00:27:06,796 Speaker 1: every time. 416 00:27:07,476 --> 00:27:11,516 Speaker 8: Nothing and then the rank King minority member who's representative 417 00:27:11,516 --> 00:27:14,356 Speaker 8: for King from Texas gets up and basically says, take 418 00:27:14,396 --> 00:27:16,556 Speaker 8: your lie in data and go home, because we know 419 00:27:16,596 --> 00:27:18,436 Speaker 8: what the truth is. We're being invaded and we've got 420 00:27:18,476 --> 00:27:18,956 Speaker 8: to stop this. 421 00:27:22,596 --> 00:27:26,116 Speaker 1: Massey says, we need to do the exact opposite of 422 00:27:26,156 --> 00:27:29,036 Speaker 1: what we're doing now. When we raise the cost of 423 00:27:29,036 --> 00:27:33,036 Speaker 1: crossing the border, that shut down circulation. If you want 424 00:27:33,076 --> 00:27:36,636 Speaker 1: to restore circulation, then you should make the border easier 425 00:27:36,636 --> 00:27:39,796 Speaker 1: to cross. Reduce the size of the border patrol, don't 426 00:27:39,836 --> 00:27:43,516 Speaker 1: increase it. Make it easier for migrants to get legal status, 427 00:27:43,756 --> 00:27:44,356 Speaker 1: not harder. 428 00:27:45,676 --> 00:27:49,596 Speaker 8: If you wanted to lower the number of Mexicans living 429 00:27:49,636 --> 00:27:51,436 Speaker 8: in the United States, give them green cards, and a 430 00:27:51,436 --> 00:27:54,476 Speaker 8: lot of them won't go home. The US is not 431 00:27:54,516 --> 00:27:57,276 Speaker 8: that nice a place for people, for Mexicans these days, 432 00:27:58,236 --> 00:28:00,516 Speaker 8: but they have families here, They got us born kids. 433 00:28:00,596 --> 00:28:03,596 Speaker 8: They they and if they know they can come back, 434 00:28:03,876 --> 00:28:04,556 Speaker 8: they'll go home. 435 00:28:08,036 --> 00:28:10,236 Speaker 1: If we had kept things the way they were in 436 00:28:10,276 --> 00:28:13,836 Speaker 1: the early nineteen seventies, the same badly run border patrol, 437 00:28:14,116 --> 00:28:18,716 Speaker 1: the same ineffectual leadership, the same indifferent public, we wouldn't 438 00:28:18,756 --> 00:28:23,036 Speaker 1: be tearing our hair out over immigration. If there was 439 00:28:23,076 --> 00:28:25,756 Speaker 1: ever a place for bad government, it was on the 440 00:28:25,756 --> 00:28:29,396 Speaker 1: southern US border. But what do we get. We got 441 00:28:29,436 --> 00:28:32,476 Speaker 1: the one guy who couldn't do bad government, the man 442 00:28:32,636 --> 00:28:36,436 Speaker 1: haunted by his country's failure to build a wall in Vietnam. 443 00:28:36,756 --> 00:28:39,876 Speaker 10: I think who came out with comment about the all 444 00:28:39,916 --> 00:28:40,796 Speaker 10: Marines are green. 445 00:28:42,276 --> 00:28:42,876 Speaker 4: Fact the thing. 446 00:28:44,436 --> 00:28:48,076 Speaker 1: There's a fascinating moment in General Chapman's oral history. His 447 00:28:48,236 --> 00:28:51,476 Speaker 1: interviewer asks about racial troubles that rocked the Marine Corps 448 00:28:51,476 --> 00:28:54,436 Speaker 1: in the late sixties, the civil rights movement was at 449 00:28:54,436 --> 00:28:57,436 Speaker 1: its apex. There was a near race riodte at Camp 450 00:28:57,516 --> 00:29:01,996 Speaker 1: La June, fistfights among soldiers in Vietnam. Black Marines wanted 451 00:29:02,036 --> 00:29:04,956 Speaker 1: to be treated with the same consideration as white marines. 452 00:29:05,836 --> 00:29:11,476 Speaker 1: Chapman's response may be his most memorable announcement. All Marines 453 00:29:11,596 --> 00:29:15,236 Speaker 1: are green, not black, not white. The color of the 454 00:29:15,396 --> 00:29:19,036 Speaker 1: uniform is what matters. Backed up by a directive unracial 455 00:29:19,076 --> 00:29:23,756 Speaker 1: discrimination sent to every officer under his command. He even 456 00:29:23,796 --> 00:29:27,316 Speaker 1: made a solemonic ruling on the prohibition against black soldiers 457 00:29:27,316 --> 00:29:31,276 Speaker 1: wearing their hair in an afro. Hair he said was hair. 458 00:29:31,996 --> 00:29:35,556 Speaker 1: The concern of the Marine Corps was not with its form, 459 00:29:35,636 --> 00:29:36,596 Speaker 1: only with its length. 460 00:29:37,516 --> 00:29:40,756 Speaker 4: What it said was that within those limits, a marine 461 00:29:40,796 --> 00:29:44,396 Speaker 4: can style his hair anyway he wants to. Yeah, that's 462 00:29:44,436 --> 00:29:48,516 Speaker 4: what it said. So that if a black marine wanted 463 00:29:48,516 --> 00:29:50,716 Speaker 4: to have an afro that was no more than three 464 00:29:50,756 --> 00:29:53,716 Speaker 4: inches long and was neat and trail around itself, fine, 465 00:29:54,556 --> 00:30:03,956 Speaker 4: why not? Yeah? 466 00:30:03,996 --> 00:30:08,476 Speaker 1: And the evening parade. To participate in the evening parade 467 00:30:08,476 --> 00:30:10,676 Speaker 1: at eighth and nine, you used to have to be 468 00:30:10,756 --> 00:30:14,596 Speaker 1: a perfect specimen of military manhood, more than six feet tall, 469 00:30:14,676 --> 00:30:19,676 Speaker 1: no glasses, and white. Chapman says, why can't you be 470 00:30:19,756 --> 00:30:25,316 Speaker 1: a perfect specimen of military manhood and black? He desegregated 471 00:30:25,396 --> 00:30:29,636 Speaker 1: evening parade that got him hauled before a congressional committee 472 00:30:29,676 --> 00:30:34,636 Speaker 1: full of angry Southerners. Chapman describes the experience with typical 473 00:30:34,756 --> 00:30:39,876 Speaker 1: understatement as a quote interesting few hours, but I'm a 474 00:30:39,916 --> 00:30:43,036 Speaker 1: deep Southerner myself, and so I was able to battle 475 00:30:43,076 --> 00:30:50,076 Speaker 1: them with good effect. Unquote. I'm curious if he were 476 00:30:50,116 --> 00:30:52,396 Speaker 1: here today, what would he make of the way we 477 00:30:52,436 --> 00:30:55,276 Speaker 1: talk about immigration away that debate has changed. 478 00:30:55,836 --> 00:30:57,876 Speaker 5: I'm not sure what he would say. 479 00:30:58,476 --> 00:31:00,436 Speaker 1: This is Chapman's granddaughter, Danielle. 480 00:31:00,436 --> 00:31:04,236 Speaker 5: Again, you really disliked complaining, and you know he would 481 00:31:04,236 --> 00:31:08,276 Speaker 5: always say if anybody was, well, okay, what are you 482 00:31:08,356 --> 00:31:11,676 Speaker 5: going to do it? You know, he was incredibly pragmatic, 483 00:31:12,236 --> 00:31:15,236 Speaker 5: so I think that he would probably view a lot 484 00:31:15,276 --> 00:31:19,156 Speaker 5: of the current conversation as just a bunch of noise 485 00:31:19,276 --> 00:31:20,156 Speaker 5: without a solution. 486 00:31:21,076 --> 00:31:22,356 Speaker 1: So what was his solution? 487 00:31:22,516 --> 00:31:22,716 Speaker 12: Then? 488 00:31:23,556 --> 00:31:27,676 Speaker 1: General Chapman did what came naturally. He enforced the law, 489 00:31:27,996 --> 00:31:31,196 Speaker 1: he drew the line. He made a complicated issue. 490 00:31:31,556 --> 00:31:36,116 Speaker 5: Clear, he didn't like the idea of, you know, mass 491 00:31:36,236 --> 00:31:40,596 Speaker 5: illegal immigration. But at the same time, his views had 492 00:31:40,636 --> 00:31:44,076 Speaker 5: none of the tone that the immigration debate has now. 493 00:31:44,916 --> 00:31:49,356 Speaker 5: He just didn't think of it in racial or ethnic terms. 494 00:31:49,836 --> 00:31:53,476 Speaker 5: I never heard him talk about it like that or 495 00:31:53,916 --> 00:31:56,996 Speaker 5: or attach the kind of emotions that you hear people 496 00:31:57,116 --> 00:31:59,996 Speaker 5: attaching to it in the current debate. 497 00:32:04,636 --> 00:32:07,596 Speaker 1: General Chapman traveled to every corner of the United States 498 00:32:07,876 --> 00:32:11,316 Speaker 1: and stood up in that deliberate ramrod straight Marine Corps 499 00:32:11,316 --> 00:32:14,756 Speaker 1: way and told the American people plainly and clearly what 500 00:32:14,916 --> 00:32:20,196 Speaker 1: needed to be done. Can I fault him? I can't. 501 00:32:20,796 --> 00:32:23,556 Speaker 1: I wish there were more people like Letter Chapin, especially 502 00:32:23,596 --> 00:32:28,076 Speaker 1: these days. It's just that in some cases, complicated things 503 00:32:28,156 --> 00:32:32,276 Speaker 1: are best left unclear, and we're better off letting whatever 504 00:32:32,316 --> 00:32:33,516 Speaker 1: it is that doesn't love. 505 00:32:33,396 --> 00:32:38,236 Speaker 2: A wall, or in its course, something there is that 506 00:32:38,316 --> 00:32:43,116 Speaker 2: doesn't love a wall that wants it down. I could 507 00:32:43,156 --> 00:32:47,076 Speaker 2: say elves him, but it's not Elves exactly, and I'd 508 00:32:47,156 --> 00:32:50,196 Speaker 2: rather he said it for himself. I see him there, 509 00:32:50,276 --> 00:32:53,556 Speaker 2: bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top in each hand, 510 00:32:53,636 --> 00:32:57,236 Speaker 2: like an old stone, savage armed. He moves in darkness, 511 00:32:57,276 --> 00:32:59,636 Speaker 2: as it seems to me, not of woods, only in 512 00:32:59,676 --> 00:33:02,756 Speaker 2: the shade of trees. He will not go behind his 513 00:33:02,876 --> 00:33:06,116 Speaker 2: father's saying, and he likes having thought of it so well. 514 00:33:06,156 --> 00:33:09,116 Speaker 2: He says again, good fences, my good neighbors. 515 00:33:18,996 --> 00:33:23,716 Speaker 1: Revisionist History is a Panoply production. Senior producer is Miel LaBelle, 516 00:33:23,836 --> 00:33:27,876 Speaker 1: with Jacob Smith and Camille Baptista Our editor is Julia Barton. 517 00:33:28,156 --> 00:33:31,836 Speaker 1: Flon Williams is our engineer. Fact checking by Beth Johnson, 518 00:33:32,236 --> 00:33:36,276 Speaker 1: original music by Luis Gara. Special thanks to ac Valdez 519 00:33:36,516 --> 00:33:39,276 Speaker 1: for capturing the sounds of the evening parade and for 520 00:33:39,316 --> 00:33:42,316 Speaker 1: the audio of Robert Frost. Thanks to the National Council 521 00:33:42,396 --> 00:33:46,036 Speaker 1: of Teachers of English, and thanks as always to Andy 522 00:33:46,036 --> 00:33:50,636 Speaker 1: Bauers and Commandant Jacob Weisper. I'm Malcolm Glamin. 523 00:33:59,076 --> 00:34:01,996 Speaker 5: I think the only time I can remember him really 524 00:34:02,036 --> 00:34:05,676 Speaker 5: getting angry with me was when I kind of blasphemed 525 00:34:05,716 --> 00:34:07,916 Speaker 5: the Constitution, and I don't know why I would do 526 00:34:07,956 --> 00:34:10,196 Speaker 5: that except I was a teenager.