1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,760 Speaker 1: Do you know another parent or expecting parent. Are you 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: wondering what can I give them as a gift. Don't 3 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:10,719 Speaker 1: give them another onesie, don't give them a plastic toy 4 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:13,119 Speaker 1: or god forbid, a toy gun that's just going to 5 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: end up in the garage. Give them something that matters, 6 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 1: and what matters the most is protecting their child. What 7 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:22,759 Speaker 1: do you love most in the world your children? What 8 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: will you do to protect them anything. I sat down 9 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: with these smartest people I know in the world on 10 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 1: matters of child's safety, finding missing children, fighting back against predators, 11 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 1: and what I learned is so important, powerful and information 12 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: so critical. I want you to have it. I want 13 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: them to have it. Go to crimestops here dot com 14 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: for a five part series with action information that you 15 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: can use to change your life and protect your child 16 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: payment starting six ninety nine. Give that as a gift, 17 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: not enough the one ze. Find out how to protect 18 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: your child when you're out of the mall or the store, 19 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: or the grocery, in the parking lot at home. Find 20 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 1: out about protection regarding babysitters, in daycare, even online. I'd 21 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 1: rather have that any day of the week than a 22 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: plastic toy or God forbid a toy gun. Join Justice Nation, 23 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: go to Crime Stops here dot com. Crime Stories with 24 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. What happened to Pamela Ray? How much do 25 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 1: you look forward to vacations? Because sometimes when I am 26 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 1: overwhelmed with the work and taking care of everybody else 27 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 1: and I never get a moment to spend with the children, 28 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: just being with them, I actually envision vacation when we're 29 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: away from everything and we're just together, and those are 30 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: some of my very best memories. Ever. What went wrong? 31 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: A mom takes her children on vacation to one of 32 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 1: the most beautiful beaches in the world. The sand looks 33 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: like sugar, and she's never seen again. I Nancy Grace, 34 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:20,640 Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. 35 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:25,679 Speaker 1: What happened to Pamela Ray? Straight out to Alan Duke 36 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 1: joining us. You know, Pamela Ray went on a drive 37 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: that my parents took me on a million times. Would 38 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 1: go down Old forty one, Old Highway forty one that 39 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: goes from Florida all the way to New York and 40 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 1: would go go go drive through the night. After they 41 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: got off of work. My mom would make fried chicken 42 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 1: because there was nowhere to stop. Alan the whole way 43 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: down and we would get there in the early morning 44 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: hours too, where we would go as Fort Walton Beach, 45 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:59,519 Speaker 1: but that's about twenty miles or so from this location 46 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 1: where Pamela Ray went missing PCB Panama City Beach, and 47 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 1: that is where I first saw the ocean. As since 48 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: you didn't ask, Alan, we had gotten there really late 49 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: in the night. There were so many people staying in 50 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 1: my aunt's place on the beach that I had to 51 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 1: sleep in a chair, which was fine, And I woke 52 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: up in the morning and looked through the screen porch 53 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,359 Speaker 1: and saw the ocean for the first time and went 54 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 1: And I'm just wondering if that was the plan for 55 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 1: Pamela Ray's children. Tell me what happened. Oh, yes, that's 56 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: exactly a memory that I have two Pamela, June Ray 57 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: and her two children, five and twelve taking this family 58 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: road trip from the Atlanta area, Georgia home to the 59 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: beautiful beaches of Panama City, Florida. But when they pulled 60 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: into Panama City, it was a rainy early morning hours 61 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: of August twelfth, nineteen ninety two. Pamela couldn't find a 62 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 1: hotel vacancy, which has happened to me before when I've 63 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: made the same trip busy time of the summer in 64 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: the beach town. When she walked up to the counter 65 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: to check at the will Hype Hotel at three thirty 66 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: in the morning, the desk clerk told her that he 67 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: didn't have any space left no rooms at the end. 68 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 1: So she did what I did in the same situation 69 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: once when I was on a college road trip. She 70 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 1: parked in the motel's parking lot and sat and slept. 71 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: At least seven witnesses, including two police officers, remembered seeing 72 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:22,719 Speaker 1: the car and the rays inside. At five thirty in 73 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:25,919 Speaker 1: the morning, Pamela for some reason locked the car doors, 74 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: left her two children sleeping in the back seat, walked 75 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 1: into that She was seen walking into the motel lobby 76 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:33,599 Speaker 1: toward the swimming pool. The mom never returned to her car. 77 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 1: Well wait a minute, allan, that that's so much information 78 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:40,479 Speaker 1: at once. So pam takes her children to Panama City. 79 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: They get all the way down there, they go to 80 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: a motel, the White Is that what you said, The 81 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 1: White Motel on tide each road. Yes, it doesn't exist anymore, 82 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: but it used to be the will Hight Motel. On 83 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:56,839 Speaker 1: Front Beach Road. They got there just before the sun 84 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: rose around five thirty a m Us twelve. She couldn't 85 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,160 Speaker 1: get in, apparently decided to wait in the car and 86 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 1: go back after people began checking out and leaving to 87 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: see if they could get a spot. She locked the 88 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: children in the car as they were asleep and started 89 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:18,359 Speaker 1: back toward the motel. Joining me right now. In addition 90 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: to Alan Duke is Rhonda Bishop. This is Pamela's sister 91 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,720 Speaker 1: who has led the fight to find out what happened 92 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: to her sister. Also with me, director of the Cold 93 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: Case Research Institute, Cheryl McCullum, renowned attorney Penny Douglas fur 94 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:39,279 Speaker 1: Out of the Atlanta Jurisdiction, and well known forensic psychiatrist 95 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 1: doctor Daniel Bober now doctor Daniel Bober. Let me just 96 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: clear one thing up. At that time, at five thirty 97 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 1: in the morning, this is a while back, It was 98 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: perfectly okay at that time to leave your children in 99 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: the car and walk the twenty feet to check in. 100 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: They were asleep, they were locked in the car. I 101 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 1: don't want to hear any attie on her on Pamela, 102 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:13,040 Speaker 1: because at that time and Panama City was very still 103 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 1: very pristine, right. It's not unreasonable, Nancy, for someone to 104 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:20,839 Speaker 1: walk twenty feet from their car, especially in that neighborhood 105 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 1: at that time. And remember this is nineteen ninety two, 106 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: so there's not video cameras they're everywhere as there are now. 107 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: But you know, when you look at this case and 108 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 1: you see that she left her person or keys in 109 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: the car, I think it's exactly what you said. I 110 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:34,480 Speaker 1: think she walked out of the car to try to 111 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 1: find a hotel room, which is why foul play is 112 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 1: so likely in this case. Joining me now is Ronda Bishop. 113 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:45,359 Speaker 1: This is Pam's sister, Ronda. When did you first find 114 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:49,280 Speaker 1: out Pam was gone? I got a call. It was 115 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 1: around new or a little after. I was the only 116 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 1: one in the house and we worked out of my parents' house. 117 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: I got a call and they said they asked who 118 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 1: I was. It was the Panama City Beach Police and 119 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:09,559 Speaker 1: they said, Rhonda, we have we believe that your sister 120 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: is missing. We have the children here and someone needs 121 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: to get here as quickly as possible. At that point 122 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 1: I had to contact my parents, get everyone located, her husband. 123 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: We were on a flight by three to get to her. 124 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 1: Well I think the flight was actually one. I have 125 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: elapsed in memory about all that, and I think the 126 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: flight could have been at one and we made it 127 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 1: there about three. And the in between part is just 128 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: bag and just disbelief of getting that call in the 129 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: first place. I just wanted to get to the kids. 130 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 1: I'm hearing what you're saying. Cheryl McCallum, director of the 131 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 1: Cold Case Research Institute, and Penny as well. We've all 132 00:07:55,720 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: dealt with so many traumatic incidents where victim can't I mean, 133 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: I still to this day cannot remember big chunks of 134 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 1: time around my fiance's murder. And I will say to people, well, 135 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: what happened at this point, and they go, don't you 136 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: remember X y Z. I'm like, no, I don't remember. 137 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:20,239 Speaker 1: I don't remember any of that. And that's one thing, 138 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: Penny Douglas fir As you were recalling court, that was 139 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: the one talent I had, and that was remembering fact 140 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: is remembering facts, all sorts of details, But around that 141 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: block of time, I just don't have any memory. Penny 142 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 1: focused on exactly what has happened Nancy, and the trauma 143 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: is entering your mind and you're trying to focus and 144 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: get to what you've got to get to. I'm sure 145 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: Rhonda was thinking about the children. Nothing else was on 146 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: her mind. She was traumatized because her sister's missing, but 147 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: she's thinking of these children that are down there alone, 148 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: you know. Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute, 149 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: we're trying to put the disappearance of this gorgeous young 150 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,359 Speaker 1: mom at rest to try to get some kind of answers. 151 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 1: But I mean, going to a motel, you just leave 152 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 1: your children the car momentarily locked in asleep, the sun 153 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: is just rising. You know, the thought that violent crime 154 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 1: would enter their lives, that when five or six o'clock 155 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 1: in the morning, right there in public, No mom would 156 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: have even considered that, of course not. And Nancy, this 157 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: is another example of a crime that every one of 158 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 1: us have done the exact same thing leading up to 159 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 1: when something terrible happens to her. We have all said, Okay, 160 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 1: we'll be right back, locked the doors right, and we're 161 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 1: gonna go get the key, and then i'll come back, 162 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:45,719 Speaker 1: cap all the glass, wake them up, and we'll all 163 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 1: go win the motel room and start our day, start 164 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:50,560 Speaker 1: our vacation. So you know, this is one of those 165 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 1: things where people saw her. Nobody thought anything sinister about it. 166 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 1: It's not uncommon for people to sleep a few hours 167 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: before checking into a motel. You know, she left the 168 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 1: keys of the car, so that told me she's coming back. 169 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:06,440 Speaker 1: She locked the children in the car with the keys 170 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: in there, She's coming back to wake them up. You know, 171 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 1: I just feel sick. Cheryl McCollum. I'm just thinking about 172 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 1: it because you know, all the working moms across the country, 173 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:20,319 Speaker 1: I think I speak for a lot of them. You 174 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 1: always want to try to make everything as nice as 175 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:29,199 Speaker 1: possible for your children, whatever you can do. And of course, 176 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 1: you know, I'm afraid I'm spooling mine rotten, but I 177 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 1: would want mine to sleep in the car and not 178 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:37,959 Speaker 1: have to get up and go to the front desk. 179 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 1: You know, they'd be exhausted. It can ruin their whole day. 180 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 1: I'm sure that was what was going through her mind. 181 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: And to think of those little children waking up and 182 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 1: no mommy, nobody there, and they sit there, and they 183 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 1: sit there, and they sit there and they wait and 184 00:10:56,360 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 1: still no mommy. Around eight already. The following morning, the 185 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: office motel calls and reference to the two children being 186 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: in the car crying. The daughter was very, very young 187 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: and cheerful, and that's why I knew she didn't understand 188 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: what had just taken place with her mom and theirs son. 189 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: Of course he started crying, you know, please come home, mama, 190 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: bring my mom home. What happened to Pamela Ray straight 191 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:27,679 Speaker 1: out to Pamela's sister with us trying to put the 192 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 1: pieces of this puzzle together. Rhonda Bishop is here, Rhonda again, 193 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. So let me understand 194 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: that motel manager goes out, he has no idea anybody's missing, 195 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: and he just sees the children in the car crying 196 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: or asleep or what happened. He's seen the kids crying 197 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 1: in the car. I don't really know what happened, but 198 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 1: I think he called the police because the kids were 199 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: in the car. And then family and Children's Service came 200 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: and they got the kids. And the next thing that 201 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 1: I was aware of was I was getting a call 202 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: in Lythia Springs, Georgia saying that my sister was missing. 203 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 1: So at that point I had to figure out. First 204 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 1: I had to tell break the stews to my parents, 205 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 1: and then I had to figure out what step two 206 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:21,319 Speaker 1: was the best way to get to them, to see 207 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:25,320 Speaker 1: what we could do, because I knew she wouldn't just 208 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:29,559 Speaker 1: take off. She loved these children. Tell me about the children. 209 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: How old were they, What were their names when you 210 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: got there, What were their responses, what were they doing? 211 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: What were they saying? We got there. Brandy is five, 212 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: Shane was twelve, and they were crying. They had no idea, 213 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: They had no idea what had happened to their mom. 214 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: They were crying. It was just it's very vague. All 215 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: we could do was and then we had to figure 216 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: out what we were going to do with them so 217 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: we could search. The whole part part of that first 218 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: week was all of us just walking and searching, and 219 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: it was raining and we were just searching everywhere. We 220 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: had nothing to go on, basically nothing. So the kids, 221 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 1: they were just distraught. They had no idea. With me 222 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 1: is Rhonda Bishop. This is Pamela's sister, Cheryl McCollum, director 223 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 1: of the Cold Case Research Institute, Attorney Penny Douglas fur 224 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 1: Out of the Atlanta Jurisdiction, and doctor Daniel Bober forensic 225 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: psychiatrists along with Alan Duke joining me from LA. You know, 226 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 1: it just sounds like Penny, a nightmare. You're walking and 227 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: just walking up and down the streets and the dunes 228 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 1: and the trees and the woods, looking for your sister. 229 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 1: All the time. I guess you've got the children stashed 230 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: in some motel because nobody. All the adults can't leave 231 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 1: and go back home. There needed to be searching, and 232 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: it's pouring rain to top it all off, Penny, it's 233 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:06,439 Speaker 1: a nightmare, Nancy. I can just imagine that they didn't 234 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 1: want to leave the children alone, but they had to 235 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 1: go and search for their mother. And so they're trying 236 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 1: to take care of the children and search for the 237 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 1: mother and they don't have any idea where to look, 238 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: and neither did the police. That was the worst too. 239 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: Cheryl mccollins, Director the Cold Case Research Institute, Cheryl, the rain, now, 240 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: as miserable as that's going to be added to their pain. 241 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: They're out searching in the rain. But what does that 242 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 1: do forensically trying to find what happened to this missing mom? 243 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: Literally washes evidence away. If there had been any drops 244 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: of blood, for example, we call it short lived evidence. 245 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: When the rain starts, it would wash away, it would 246 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: be gone again. What I keep coming back to is 247 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: the scenario. So she's there, she locked the children in 248 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 1: the car, so that shows she's protecting them. Whether it's 249 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: because she's going to go off for a minute and 250 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: come back, or did somebody chap on the class glass 251 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 1: and get her out. Either way, those children were her 252 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: thoughts to protect, you know, trying to walk this area 253 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 1: in the rain. It was raining when she showed up, Linda, 254 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: do you know if the car was craned the car 255 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 1: was running. Yep. That tells me again she was protecting 256 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: those children from the heat. She knew she was going 257 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: to be gone long enough for that car to get 258 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 1: too hot when the winds rolled up in the rain, 259 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: so they were her main focus. There's no question, Now 260 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 1: this is a lot to me that the car was 261 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: still running straight out to you to doctor Daniel Bober, 262 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 1: that tells me she only meant to be in there 263 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: to check on if a room had opened up or not, 264 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: and come right back and left the car running for 265 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: the children. Yes, Nancy, I agree with you. I mean, 266 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: I mean, the fact that she left the car running 267 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 1: tells me she only had planned to be away just 268 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 1: maybe a minute or two. So clearly for whatever happened 269 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 1: was surprised to her as well. You know, we are 270 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: talking about the disappearance of a gorgeous young mom, a 271 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: mother of one child five, the little girl, the boy twelve. 272 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 1: To the sister joining me, Ronda Bishop trying to get 273 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: answers in the disappearance of her sister, Pamela. What were 274 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: the children saying about what happened? What did they recall? Rohnda, 275 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: They were asleep. That still haunts them to this day. 276 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 1: They were asleep and they knew or saw nothing. So 277 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: what do you mean that haunts them to this day 278 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 1: that they can't help with the investigation, or they didn't 279 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 1: get to say goodbye to their mom, or what they 280 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 1: didn't get to say goodbye to their mom and they 281 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: couldn't help with the investigation. They asked, but they were 282 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 1: sound asleep and they said they knew nothing. And now, 283 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, Brandy was five, she doesn't even 284 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:58,239 Speaker 1: remember her mom. Oh man, oh man, Oh, that's a heartbreak. 285 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:03,239 Speaker 1: That is a heartbreak to Ronda. This is Pam's sister. Ronda, 286 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 1: tell me about how you end up tromping through the 287 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: rain looking for your sister. I mean, did you even 288 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:11,360 Speaker 1: know where to look? What were you guys doing We 289 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 1: were going on what we would hear from people, and 290 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:19,440 Speaker 1: we would actually go in the bottoms of the hotels 291 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: and look, and we would walk in those swamps and 292 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 1: look and anything that we could do. If we've seen 293 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: a van that may have been sitting or we would 294 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: go up to it. I mean, we're rednecks from you know, Georgia, 295 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 1: and we're gonna do what we have to do. It 296 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 1: didn't do us a whole lot of good, but we searched, 297 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:46,160 Speaker 1: and we searched, and I mean, my dad, we couldn't 298 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 1: keep him in Georgia for wanting to search for his daughter. 299 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: I'm just trying to imagine Penny and Cheryl Alan. You 300 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: guys know my dad before he passed away. There is 301 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 1: no way my dad would have left. He would still 302 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 1: be searching right now. I mean, a demon from hell 303 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 1: could not have kept him from searching for me or 304 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 1: my children, or my mom, my brother and sister. I'm 305 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 1: just trying to imagine this whole family torn apart, Like 306 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: what do you do with the children? How do you 307 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 1: go searching? Because at that time, it wasn't Cheryl, it 308 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: wasn't like now, oh, let's do a grid search let's 309 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 1: bring in equa search. Let's do you know, bring in 310 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: the dogs. It wasn't like that at all. Cheryls and Nancy, 311 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: where do you even start? I mean you started the motel, 312 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:36,119 Speaker 1: but then when you start fanning out, you know, do 313 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 1: you search woods? Do you search swamps? Do you search 314 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 1: the beach? Do you search bars? Are there you know? 315 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 1: Empty buildings? I mean you talk about any time you 316 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: drive down any roads in any town, even your own town, 317 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 1: look at the number of places you could search for somebody. 318 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 1: I mean, when you look back on that, Rhonda Bishop, 319 00:18:55,880 --> 00:19:01,360 Speaker 1: what is your most vivid memory. It's going through just 320 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: the days of the rain hitting you and you're crying 321 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:10,359 Speaker 1: and you're looking, You're just looking, Pam, Where are you? Pam? 322 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 1: Where are you? Please let something happen, Please come back, 323 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:20,159 Speaker 1: and you're just walking around to every hotel. Did you 324 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: see her? Is there any way you could help us 325 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,160 Speaker 1: with any kind of information we would go. We were 326 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: on the TV and we were just praying and we 327 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: were hoping that someone had seen just anything, anything would 328 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: have helped us at that point, and we had nothing, 329 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:43,639 Speaker 1: and we still have nothing. Take a listen to Ronda 330 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 1: speaking to our friend Piers Morgan about her sister, my 331 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:55,200 Speaker 1: oldest sister, five years older. She loved me. We used 332 00:19:55,200 --> 00:20:01,120 Speaker 1: to do everything together, everything with our children. Wherever she wouldn't, 333 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:12,360 Speaker 1: I would. The window treatments is one of those terms 334 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 1: for something necessary but boring. Your blinds. You don't even 335 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,640 Speaker 1: think about them unless you move or they break. Well. 336 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 1: When they're right, everything in your home looks better. But 337 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: when they're wrong, everything in your home looks tacky. But 338 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,439 Speaker 1: let's be honest, taking the time and the effort to 339 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:35,400 Speaker 1: pick out and buy blind sounds expensive, boring, and then 340 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: think of installing them yourself. 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That's Blinds dot Com promo 360 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:56,400 Speaker 1: code Nancy for twenty percent off everything Foewood blinds, cellular shades, 361 00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 1: roller shades, everything Lines dot Com promo code Nancy. Rules 362 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 1: and restrictions do apply. Crime stories with Nancy Grace PAA 363 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 1: Ray and taking her two children on holiday, leaving them 364 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 1: asleep in her cop she went to check into a motel. 365 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: We know that a police officer with the Pamela City 366 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 1: Beach Police Department saw Pamela Ray and she was talking 367 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: to an unknown individual that was standing between the motel 368 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 1: office in this pool fence. After that time, we have 369 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:39,679 Speaker 1: no visual of her ever. Again, what happened to this 370 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 1: gorgeous young mom Pamela Ray? Now we are learning that 371 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: around five am, sometime between five and six AM, one 372 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 1: person hears a scream. To Cheryl McCallum, director of the 373 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: Coal Case Research Institute, what do you know about that? 374 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 1: Several earwitnesses said they heard a woman scream for help. 375 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:05,879 Speaker 1: This to me is the most unbelievable because she's not 376 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:10,680 Speaker 1: just screaming, she's screaming for help. Now, the hotel, we've 377 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: been told at the time, did not have phones in 378 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 1: individual rooms, so they did not call the police. And 379 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:18,680 Speaker 1: I guess several people were afraid to leave their room 380 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 1: and so check to see what was up. But several 381 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:25,119 Speaker 1: people reported hearing her scream for help. It was the 382 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 1: end of a three hundred mile road trip to vacation 383 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,160 Speaker 1: with her two children. How many times have I gotten 384 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: the children in the car and off we go to 385 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,920 Speaker 1: go hiking and to go see this or that, never 386 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:42,160 Speaker 1: thinking that somehow I would be separated from them and 387 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,360 Speaker 1: they would end up for hours in the car crying 388 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 1: and never see their mother again. That is exactly what 389 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 1: happened to Pamela Ray, her five year old and twelve 390 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:55,920 Speaker 1: year old child left in the car while she tried 391 00:23:55,920 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 1: to check into this motel never seen again. But this 392 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,880 Speaker 1: is what we know. The scream for help rings out 393 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 1: that Cheryl McCollum was just telling you about what did 394 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: that mean? It had to be her? Who else could 395 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: it have been? Then several people emerge claiming they had 396 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: seen her briefly speaking to a man I guess in 397 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 1: the parking lot of the motel on her way into 398 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,880 Speaker 1: the office. I mean, think about it. Let me go 399 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: out to doctor Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist. Even knowing what 400 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:33,959 Speaker 1: I know about crime, doctor Bober, when someone speaks to me, 401 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,160 Speaker 1: I turn and look at them. I mean, it's just 402 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: natural instinct. And I guarantee you that's what happened that 403 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,359 Speaker 1: early morning. I mean, for Pete take at six o'clock 404 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 1: in the morning. Who thinks you're about to be attacked? Exactly? Nancy. 405 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: You know, this is just human nature. When you're walking 406 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 1: down a hallway or you're walking to an office and 407 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:53,680 Speaker 1: someone speaks to you, as you said, you've talked to them. 408 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 1: I mean, that's not outside the norm of behavior at all. 409 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: I think that's exactly what happened. And to you, Cheryl McCallum, 410 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 1: the director of the Cole Case Research Institute, how many 411 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: raps and murders happen just like that. Somebody says, hey, Cheryl, 412 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,679 Speaker 1: can you turn around? It's over sure, and you know 413 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 1: this person probably this was not the first person they attacked, 414 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:17,119 Speaker 1: so they have it down past. And people always say, well, 415 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 1: you know, whoever's going to attack you is gonna look 416 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:23,160 Speaker 1: like a monster. That's not true. They're typically very friendly, 417 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: very easy to talk to. They're used to engaging people. 418 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,160 Speaker 1: That's how they get you, you know, with your senses down, 419 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 1: you know. So that to me, it's they've already guide 420 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 1: her into such a vulnerable position because she's there alone, 421 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 1: there with two small children. She's exhausted, probably, and my 422 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 1: feeling is she probably got out of the car to 423 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,880 Speaker 1: go use the restaurant. She has probably had coffee all 424 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,360 Speaker 1: night trying to stay up for the drive. She's been 425 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 1: in the car for several hours, the children are still sleeping. 426 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 1: I think she probably got out just to you know, 427 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 1: use the restaurant and come right back. This is a 428 00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: case at a stumped police for years. Pamela Ray leaves 429 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 1: her children in the car on an early early morning 430 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 1: August twelve to check into the motel family vacation. Nobody 431 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 1: thinks She's going to disappear without a trace, leaving her 432 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:16,160 Speaker 1: two children in the backseat asleep, and also leaving hundreds 433 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 1: of questions unanswered. Even now, police in Panama City is 434 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,199 Speaker 1: still looking for answers. Now, let me ask you. This 435 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 1: joining me is her sister, Rhonda Bishop. What did you 436 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:32,639 Speaker 1: learn about a scream about five to six am that morning? 437 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 1: A woman screaming for help? Who heard that? What became 438 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 1: of the tip? The only thing that became of that 439 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: tip was there was a guy walking down the street. 440 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 1: His name was Andrew Paul Henry. He had a ferret 441 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 1: he had harassed women earlier in the night. That is 442 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,119 Speaker 1: what they were going on. Well, he's the guy that 443 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 1: claims he heard a scream. That's who heard the scream. 444 00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: I don't know who heard that scream. So is that 445 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,199 Speaker 1: the jumping off point to Ushaw McCollum, the time of 446 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,120 Speaker 1: the scream, like you hear the dog howling and barking 447 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 1: in the oj Senson case, that kind of starts the timeline. 448 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,159 Speaker 1: That absolutely starts the timeline. Nancy, There's no question about it. 449 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: Because you also had more than one person saying they 450 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:15,919 Speaker 1: heard it around the same time. So then when you 451 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,959 Speaker 1: go to the car and it's crank and the children 452 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 1: are there. And then you have a police officer saying, hey, 453 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 1: I saw the person from this car hours earlier talking 454 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 1: to a man over by the fence. Your timeline is there, 455 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 1: she's here at this point, she leaves her car running 456 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 1: cranks and lodged. At this point, she's gone at this 457 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 1: point after the scream, that's a beautiful term. Learn with that. 458 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,959 Speaker 1: The family out searching through the rain, searching all on 459 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: their own, going up to motel rooms, beating on vans, 460 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:49,959 Speaker 1: windows and doors, trumping through swamp area, trying to find 461 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 1: the missing mom, their sister, their daughter. To the sister 462 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 1: joining me right now, what was it like going up 463 00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:00,639 Speaker 1: and bamming on vans and trumping through swamps trying to 464 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 1: find her. It was a horrible experience. Nothing he would 465 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: nothing ever imaginable. I mean, no one ever would imagine 466 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 1: getting a call saying your sister is missing, or any 467 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:20,160 Speaker 1: family member. And it's very traumatic to this day. It's 468 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: traumatic because we still have all the unknown where is 469 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 1: she and parents dying and siblings dying, and it's still 470 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:35,120 Speaker 1: all unknown. It's horrific and I just can't explain all 471 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 1: the trauma that our family has been through. I don't 472 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 1: even understand how you could do something like that to 473 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 1: another person. Your father sadly died a few months later, 474 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 1: as attendo, he fell out of his bed, had a 475 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:53,959 Speaker 1: heart attack, and he was dead just like that. Do 476 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 1: you think that the strength of what happened to Pamela 477 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 1: contributed to his death? Absolutely? Absolutely good. I think he 478 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 1: may have died of broken heart. Yeah, I know he did. 479 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 1: You are hearing our friend Piers Morgan talking about a 480 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: horrible phone called Pam's father gets from someone claiming that 481 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 1: they killed his daughter. We are talking about the mysterious 482 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 1: disappearance of a young mom of two, a little girl five, 483 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 1: little boy twelve, left in the car with the car 484 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: running while mom checks into the motel finally at family vacation. 485 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 1: She never comes back, and to this day we are 486 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 1: looking for answers. Joining me right now, Pam's sister, Pam's sister, 487 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,479 Speaker 1: Rhonda Bishop, is with us. I understand that during the search, 488 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 1: your dad had been having coffee at one of the 489 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 1: local homes a lady named Patsy, and he's there not 490 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 1: suspecting anything, and out of the blue, Patsy gets her 491 00:29:53,520 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 1: grown son, Mark Reaby on the phone, and then what happens. 492 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 1: He my dad gets on the phone with him and 493 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: he tells him that he killed his daughter. Okay too, 494 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 1: Penny Douglas fur the constitution protects you from a lot 495 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: of stuff, okay. It protects you specifically from the powers 496 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 1: of the state. In other words, a police officer can't 497 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 1: beat you until you give a confession. But when you 498 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 1: blurnt something out on the phone to the dead woman's dad, 499 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 1: the police have nothing to do with that. That is 500 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 1: a confession, Penny. Absolutely, none of these people are law enforcement. 501 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 1: It's his mother and it's the woman's father, so there's 502 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: no law enforcement involved at all. Now, somehow, our friend 503 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: Piers Morgan gets ahold of this freak Mark Reby and 504 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 1: questions him, listen, you also spoke on the telephone to 505 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 1: Pamela Ray's father. Do you remember that conversation? Mister, I 506 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 1: remember talks to that man. What do you remember telling him? 507 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 1: I don't remember. Jactually what I told him? Yeah, I 508 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 1: told him. I told him I was responsible. That was it. 509 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 1: You told him you killed his daughter. I think it's did. 510 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 1: And then what really bothered me was I never got 511 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 1: the chance to tell that man that I wasn't the 512 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 1: one response he died soon did Okay, I don't understand it. 513 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 1: So he knows the father and the whole family, including 514 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,720 Speaker 1: our guests Rhinda Bishop, is out tromping through the rain 515 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 1: trying to find Pamela. Her children are in tears toastiates 516 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 1: the motel look wanting their mom, and then this freak 517 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 1: gets on the phone and tells the dad, I did it. Listen, 518 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 1: Pamela Ray was thirty six years old and she I 519 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 1: know the story she was. Do you know what happened 520 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: to her? No, I do not know what happened to her. 521 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 1: Do you know she was abducted? She was abducted. You 522 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 1: confessed to killing me, I said, I did. When you 523 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 1: made the confession a confession you've now attracted, you gave 524 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 1: them no information along with the confession. Yeah, I told him. 525 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 1: I think the thing I stabbed Johnson is what I 526 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 1: told him. I think I stopped. I think I said that. 527 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 1: I'm not sure that's what I told him. How I'm 528 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 1: not sure? Okay, that is a lie. Why would you 529 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: call the father and confess to that and then say 530 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: I never got to tell him the truth. Well, Cheryl 531 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 1: McCall him, this is a lie. Everything this guy is 532 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 1: saying is a lie. Who he's a lie? But Nancy, 533 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 1: we're missing a bigger pizza this puzzle. His mama knew 534 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 1: he did it. So you just think about that a second. 535 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 1: If you've got to call it, said, oh, somebody burned 536 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: the school down with a cigarette, John David, would never 537 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 1: cross your mind. Ever. You've got a mama that put 538 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: that boy on the phone and said, you tell that 539 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 1: man what you did? That to me? Right there is 540 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 1: all I gotta hear. You know what. She's absolutely right, 541 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:51,239 Speaker 1: doctor Bober, because the last one standing will be the 542 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 1: defendant's mother, and if she said you tell him what 543 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 1: you did, that tells me he did it. Bober. I agree, Nancy. 544 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 1: How many times if we've seen where dramas play out 545 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 1: where the mother would say, no, no, not my son, 546 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 1: he would never do that. So I think in this situation, 547 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 1: if even the mother's not on board anymore, you could 548 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 1: be sure that he did it. Isn't that true? Penny 549 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 1: Doug with her? I mean, how many cases have you defended? 550 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 1: Have you watched? I mean, that's how you and I 551 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 1: know each other. We had cases against each other in court. 552 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 1: The mom always stands by the son. Oh. Absolutely. But 553 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: what I can't understand is why didn't he say I 554 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 1: took her here, I put her body there? He just 555 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 1: says I stabbed, I killed your daughter, and then he 556 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 1: gives no more information. Penny, are you trying to say 557 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 1: this is a false confession? Is that what you're actually 558 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 1: trying to say to me? No, I'm not saying it's 559 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 1: a false confession. What I'm saying is why doesn't he 560 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 1: give the additional information? Listen to this. Your father died 561 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 1: believing the Mark rabat he did his sister. He told 562 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: me that Mark had confessed to him, and at that time, 563 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 1: you know, I thought, very well, sure he could have 564 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 1: done it. But if it's the case he lied to 565 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 1: your father about killing your sister, what kind of person 566 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 1: to do that? The worst of the worst, So to 567 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 1: confuse matters even more. The theory of false confession has 568 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 1: reared its ugly head. Joining me right now is Pam's sister, 569 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:21,360 Speaker 1: Rondebishop Rhonda. Who is this guy Mark Reevey? What do 570 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,440 Speaker 1: we know about him? I know that he has children. 571 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:29,840 Speaker 1: I know that they believe that he murdered my sister. 572 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:35,360 Speaker 1: They believe they were they believe he dumped remains out 573 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,759 Speaker 1: on the way to Illinois. No one has followed that 574 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:46,000 Speaker 1: to my knowledge. I also know that I sent him 575 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 1: a letter after the peers morgan requesting because he gave 576 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 1: them one piece of evidence, one piece, and that was 577 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 1: that she had a single key in her hand. Me, 578 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 1: being her sister, knows that to be a proved statement 579 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,759 Speaker 1: because I would have done the same thing. I'm not 580 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,719 Speaker 1: gonna lock my kids in the car and not have 581 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,239 Speaker 1: a key to get back in that car. And he 582 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:17,319 Speaker 1: said she has a single key in her hand. My 583 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 1: question is I want to know how he knew she 584 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,720 Speaker 1: had that key in her hand. Now he has written 585 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,480 Speaker 1: me a letter. I have that letter. That question is 586 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 1: not answered, of course, but it's it's just a letter 587 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 1: stating that he knows that me and my niece and 588 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 1: nephew are not on speaking terms because he wrote my 589 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: niece and it says that he did not murder my sister. 590 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:47,360 Speaker 1: He don't know what happened, and he will not answer 591 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 1: any of my letters anymore. It's fine by me. I 592 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:55,400 Speaker 1: just have one question. Why did he tell them she 593 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 1: had one key in her hand, so that one kid, 594 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:03,320 Speaker 1: that one fact would indicate he is the killer, and 595 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 1: plus the psychology, the psychopathy behind tracking down the family 596 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:13,360 Speaker 1: and calling them, getting on the phone with a father 597 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 1: and confessing to murdering his daughter. To forensic psychiatrist doctor 598 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 1: Daniel Bober, I'm not buying it. I have a very 599 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:26,040 Speaker 1: hard time with believing false confessions that they're actually false. 600 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 1: I know that they do exist, but I think they 601 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,520 Speaker 1: are very few and far between. And I mean, when 602 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 1: you look at what we know about this guy, Mark Reeby, 603 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:39,520 Speaker 1: we know that just a few months before Pamela goes missing, 604 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,920 Speaker 1: he was already wanted for kidnapping and sex assaulting a 605 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:48,880 Speaker 1: woman in Chipley, Florida. That was just before she goes missing. Now, 606 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,840 Speaker 1: the charges against him were dropped because the conflicting descriptions 607 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:55,799 Speaker 1: given by the victim. But I know that he was 608 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:59,399 Speaker 1: arrested in that case, and that's the chief suspect. Now 609 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 1: I've got him calling a dad confessing to murder. I 610 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,880 Speaker 1: find it very difficult to believe this is a false confession. Bober. 611 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:09,400 Speaker 1: I agree. In answering, you know, the absence of evidences 612 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:11,799 Speaker 1: and the evidence of absence, and when you consider the 613 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 1: fact that when you look at this guy's history and 614 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,799 Speaker 1: all the pieces it all fits together, and you know 615 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:19,960 Speaker 1: he might be backpedaling or might have buyer's remorse about 616 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:21,759 Speaker 1: making a statement. But I think at the end of 617 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 1: the day, he's the killer. So what do we do now, 618 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, What can we do now? So I think 619 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:29,839 Speaker 1: there's several things that could be done now. Nancy, I 620 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,719 Speaker 1: think that the letter that Ronda receives needs to be 621 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,320 Speaker 1: looked at by statement analysts because she says he didn't 622 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,080 Speaker 1: answer the questions. He very well may have. It's called leakage, 623 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:42,000 Speaker 1: and it could be in that letter that he wrote 624 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:44,440 Speaker 1: back to her and the letter that Benise has. There 625 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,319 Speaker 1: could be more information than he's giving. When people do 626 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 1: a false confession, it's usually either they're seeking fame, which 627 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 1: is not the case here, or they were berated to 628 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,320 Speaker 1: the point they just confessed to make the questioning stop. 629 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,440 Speaker 1: That's not the case here. This is very similar to 630 00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,480 Speaker 1: like Albert de Salvo, the Boss's Strangler, where he said 631 00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:06,800 Speaker 1: he did it and then he said no, no, I didn't. 632 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,880 Speaker 1: She's almost playing with people this psychological cat and mouth 633 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,759 Speaker 1: as if you will. That's what he's doing, and it's 634 00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:17,240 Speaker 1: very indicative of a serial killer. So to this very day, 635 00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:22,359 Speaker 1: no arrest, no formal charges in the disappearance, and I 636 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 1: believe murder of this young mom, Pamela Ray. Rhonda Bishop, 637 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,400 Speaker 1: What has that done to you and your family and 638 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:34,920 Speaker 1: Pamela's children. It's torn our family completely apart. Before we 639 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 1: had a loving, very very close family and it's torn 640 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 1: out apart. And I have one sibling left. Everybody's deceased. 641 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:49,719 Speaker 1: It's me and another brother that's left, and that's it. 642 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:53,279 Speaker 1: What about her children? They have not spoke to me 643 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,840 Speaker 1: since my mother passed away. It's just torn us apart. 644 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,920 Speaker 1: That's torn us completely apart where we were very close, 645 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 1: where it's destroyed our lives. If you have any information 646 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:10,359 Speaker 1: on the disappearance and we believe murder of Pamela Ray, 647 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:14,400 Speaker 1: please call eight five zero two three three five thousand, 648 00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:19,000 Speaker 1: Repeat eight five zero two three three five thousand. Nancy 649 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:22,000 Speaker 1: Grace Crime Stories, signing off, goodbye friend,