WEBVTT - Vladimir Putin has a Warrant for His Arrest. Does it Matter? 0:00:05.720 --> 0:00:10.039 Welcome back to It Could Happen Here, a podcast about 0:00:10.360 --> 0:00:14.319 world stuff fallen apart, putting it back together, all that 0:00:14.400 --> 0:00:17.880 good stuff. Today we're actually covering something that's at the 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:21.120 intersection of all of that, both how fucked up things 0:00:21.160 --> 0:00:26.160 are and the attempt to make them more just, more equitable, 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:31.960 less nightmarish. We're talking about war crimes, the International Criminal Court, 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:36.559 and most specifically the warrant that was just issued for 0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:41.200 Vladimir Putin's arrest, which is something you've probably heard about 0:00:41.600 --> 0:00:45.559 on the internet. People have various takes on this in 0:00:45.680 --> 0:00:48.640 order to kind of talk about what's actually been done, 0:00:48.720 --> 0:00:51.440 what it actually means, and sort of the history of 0:00:51.479 --> 0:00:55.120 attempts to hold the leaders of nations to account for 0:00:55.200 --> 0:00:58.400 war crimes. I want to talk to Nick Waters. Nick, 0:00:58.520 --> 0:01:03.080 Welcome to the show. Higher Nick, you and I have 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:06.480 some connections outside of this. First off, you're you're here 0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:09.759 on the show today because you work in an investigatory 0:01:09.959 --> 0:01:13.400 investigative capacity. Geez, can you tell that I'm not used 0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:16.160 to waking up this early for Belling Cat where we 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:20.600 both work together. Your focus has been primarily on war crimes. 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:25.720 You've been covering Ukraine lately, but you have a pretty 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:29.720 wide purview and a pretty wide base of experience, including 0:01:29.840 --> 0:01:33.840 crimes in Libya. Um and yeah, I wanted to talk 0:01:33.880 --> 0:01:36.280 to you a little bit. First off, welcome to the show. 0:01:36.760 --> 0:01:42.080 Thanks very much, mate, Um of behind the Bastards. I 0:01:42.080 --> 0:01:44.480 have the largest knife I could find in this place 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:47.400 next to me. It's not quite machete, but yeah, I 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:49.040 mean I thought I should have one just in case. 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:53.880 That's that's good, I've got um. Well, yeah, I actually 0:01:53.920 --> 0:01:55.560 am more or less knifeless here. I do have a 0:01:55.640 --> 0:02:02.600 nine millimeter in the desk, but somewhat more limited span 0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:07.400 of uses. Now, Nick, you and I. You and I 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:09.760 have shared one of the strongest bonds that two men 0:02:09.800 --> 0:02:12.480 can share, which is eating some really delicious a rep us. 0:02:12.680 --> 0:02:21.160 But we also share an interest in the somewhat difficult 0:02:21.240 --> 0:02:24.680 history of attempts from our species to kind of grapple 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:28.000 with the nature of war, crimes, of acts of genocide 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:31.040 and hold people to account for them. I kind of 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:33.720 think before we get into what's happened with Putin, we 0:02:33.760 --> 0:02:37.639 should talk about what the ICC is and what its 0:02:37.680 --> 0:02:40.120 history comes from. Because this it actually dates back a 0:02:40.160 --> 0:02:42.839 little over one hundred years, attempts to make the ICC. 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:46.640 I think nineteen nineteen was the first convention in which 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:48.920 a number of European nations were like, boy, we should 0:02:48.960 --> 0:02:53.120 really have some sort of court put together to attempt 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:57.840 to hold leaders and individuals to account for committing war crimes. Yeah. 0:02:57.960 --> 0:03:00.760 I'm not a familiar with the kind of the very 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:05.359 long history of attempts at international justice. Suffice to say 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:08.200 that so far hasn't worked out quite how I think 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:13.040 everyone expects it to. That, That is the TLDR, the 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:19.239 international Justice good idea hasn't happened yet pretty much. Yeah, 0:03:19.280 --> 0:03:23.200 I mean there's been lots of yeah, lots of agreements obviously, 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:26.480 kind of everyone knows Geneva Convention, et cetera, lots of 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:30.640 other agreements about how not to kill people in the 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:33.440 most horrific way as possible in war, and you know, 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:37.680 as part of that, like Roman Statue which created the ICC. Yeah, 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:41.640 it was agreed in nineteen ninety eight. So yeah, there's 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:44.240 been kind of like one hundred years or sort of 0:03:44.240 --> 0:03:48.040 efforts before the ICEC actually got here. Yeah. Actually probably Also, 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:50.960 I need to say, like before we kind of get 0:03:51.000 --> 0:03:53.760 going anything, I'm not a lawyer, which is super important 0:03:53.800 --> 0:03:55.200 because I know all the lawyers out there will be 0:03:55.280 --> 0:04:00.240 like angry about it. So nick I wanted to talk 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:07.800 about what in particular this decision means because there's bit like, obviously, 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:10.640 I think it's fair to say in the immediate term, 0:04:10.680 --> 0:04:16.960 probably nothing like it's not like the international um uh 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:20.240 warrant agents are going to come out and arrest Vladimir 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:23.200 in the Kremlin or in his his mansion that you 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:27.799 see fake photoshopped images of on on Twitter all the time. Um. 0:04:28.279 --> 0:04:32.440 But yeah, yeah, yeah, so in kind of like day 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:35.960 to day stuff, Yeah, it doesn't have that much an effect. Um. 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:39.920 So Russia doesn't recognize the jurisdiction of the ICC. So 0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:42.480 it's not like, you know, the FSB are going to 0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:46.600 storm into the Kremlin and ar Resciputin and like export 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:48.920 him to the Hague in a you know, different matter 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:52.960 bag or something that's that's not going to happen. Um. 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:56.279 But in other ways it's it's a big deal in 0:04:56.320 --> 0:05:00.200 other ways. Um. And also it's for me, like the 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:03.479 biggest thing about this is that it's an indicator about 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:08.400 how seriously the ICC is taking taking this war. International 0:05:08.440 --> 0:05:13.560 justice moves so slowly, you know, we're talking like you know, 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:17.000 mentioned in decades so to having a restaurants house. Yeah, 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:20.800 in one year is like a really big deal for 0:05:20.920 --> 0:05:24.560 the ICEC at least. Yeah. And this is because, if 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:29.200 I'm not mistaken, the both Putin and the woman, because 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:31.279 he's not the only one, by the way, that's been 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:36.520 been charged by the the ICCUM. There's also I'm gonna 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:41.920 attempt to get her name right, Maria Lvova Belova, who 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:45.880 is the Commissioner for Children's Rights in Russia. And part 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:49.359 of the reason why this has happened so rapidly is 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:54.360 that both Putin and Maria have made pretty unequivocal statements 0:05:54.520 --> 0:05:59.360 about the removal of Ukrainian children from their families, forced 0:05:59.400 --> 0:06:03.080 deportation and into Russia and adoption by Russian families, which 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:05.000 is that is a war crime, that is an act 0:06:05.000 --> 0:06:10.600 of genocide. Yeah, so I think the actual crime is 0:06:10.720 --> 0:06:14.479 unlawful deportation or the actual citation is on awful deportation 0:06:14.520 --> 0:06:18.560 of Ukrainian children, which yes, could be arguably and again 0:06:18.600 --> 0:06:21.640 at this point emphasized not a lawyer, Yeah, I think 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:25.080 can feed into the kind of accusations of genocide. And 0:06:25.160 --> 0:06:28.760 so it's a pretty big charge to level against Putin 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:32.960 and this commissioner this early on. I think it's also 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:36.280 like one of the easier ones as well, Like in 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:39.640 the view of the Russian States, this is a you know, 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:43.000 wonderful thing they're doing. They are essentially kind of rescuing 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:46.400 these children from and you can't see if I'm doing 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:49.839 air quotes right now, like Grainian Nazis educating them and 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:53.960 bring them up as Russian children, and you know, they're 0:06:53.960 --> 0:06:57.520 they're taking these children away from their culture, their families, 0:06:57.640 --> 0:07:02.080 and their country to basically race who they all, which 0:07:02.120 --> 0:07:05.120 act plays a quite big part in the actuation that 0:07:05.279 --> 0:07:08.560 could be part of a active GENOCIDEA yeah, and it's 0:07:08.640 --> 0:07:12.760 it's interesting to me Levova Belova has kind of described 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:15.240 this like her justification of this, and I think the 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:18.160 Russian states justification of this is both that, yeah, the 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:21.200 Ukrainians or Nazis, and also I've heard claims from her 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:24.120 that like, well, we're removing children from a dangerous war zone, 0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:27.280 which you know that begs the question why is it 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:31.280 a dangerous war zone right now? Among other things. But 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:33.720 one of the things that's interesting to me is that 0:07:34.000 --> 0:07:38.320 Levova Belova is not just part of the state apparatus 0:07:38.400 --> 0:07:41.720 of carrying out this act, but has also thanked putin 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:44.280 publicly for making it possible for her to adopt a 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:46.880 child from dun Boss, which is one of the Russian 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:49.640 occupied parts of Ukraine. So yeah, it is It is 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:52.680 kind of interesting the stuff that had to fall into 0:07:52.720 --> 0:07:55.200 place for this to be able to happen in such 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:59.800 an expeditious manner. Yeah, I think it helps that they've 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:03.400 or the Russian state views this act is something that 0:08:03.560 --> 0:08:06.440 is beneficial, and so they want to say, hey, look 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:09.200 we're rescuing these children. And you can see kind of 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:15.040 similar You've seen similar vibes with like basically stealing Ukrainian 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:21.240 cultural heritage from museums and stuff like that. They or 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:23.440 the Russian state believes, you know, that they are doing 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:25.160 the right thing, like we are very proud that we 0:08:25.200 --> 0:08:29.440 have taken these objects away and we are saving them 0:08:29.480 --> 0:08:34.920 again from Ukrainian artsies. And so they make public announcements 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:37.280 about it. They say, yeah, we're doing the thing. It's awesome, 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:39.880 isn't it. Yeah, And so the result is quite a 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:43.120 lot of evidence that they're doing these pretty bad things. 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:46.360 And so yeah, there's there's quit lot of evidence there. 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:49.440 There are statements from his Commissioner for Children from Peutin. 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:54.040 It's pretty clear what's happening. So it's quite a I 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:57.200 think it's quite an interesting charge to bring. Yeah, and 0:08:57.240 --> 0:09:01.000 we're just so people are aware of the scale. President Zelinski, 0:09:01.040 --> 0:09:03.760 if Ukraine at least has says that his country has 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:08.319 recorded about sixteen thousand cases of forcible deportations of children. 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:11.800 That's not like a final number, just like the death 0:09:11.840 --> 0:09:14.240 tallies and whatnot are not final numbers. But that's that 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:16.840 is the Ukrainian state's estimate of how many kids have 0:09:16.880 --> 0:09:18.880 been taken away, which is a I mean, that's a 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:22.320 pretty staggering number. I mean, yeah, that's a huge number 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:26.160 of children. Yeah, yeah, I know, that's an absolutely huge 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:29.040 number of children. And then you have to account you 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:31.160 know that it's not just a children they're the victims. 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:33.199 It's also their families who are the victims. So are 0:09:33.200 --> 0:09:35.640 we're talking about like a knock on effect with you know, 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:38.160 tens of thousands of people who've been affected by these arcs, 0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:41.160 if not more than that, Yeah, I think probably. I 0:09:41.160 --> 0:09:45.240 mean sixteen thousand children, that probably higher than the tens 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:48.000 of thousands in terms of family members and whatnot who 0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:52.920 are impacted by this. In terms of what technically this 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:56.640 means for Putin. There's about there's I think one hundred 0:09:56.679 --> 0:10:00.840 and twenty signature signatory nations to the Rome Statue it Um, 0:10:01.160 --> 0:10:05.240 and within those countries, theoretically, if if Putin or if 0:10:05.320 --> 0:10:08.960 Maria were to travel there, they would theoretically be arrested 0:10:09.000 --> 0:10:10.839 if they were to set foot in one of those 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:15.960 signatory nations. Yes, so theoretic theoretically doing a lot of 0:10:16.000 --> 0:10:20.680 walking there. Yeah, doing a lot of heavy lifting. Okay. 0:10:20.760 --> 0:10:23.040 So yeah, in theory, if Putin traves to any of 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:25.600 these nations, he should be arrested. But some of the 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:30.120 nations don't recognize or believe that heads of states are 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:33.360 basically immune, and I imagine there will be several of 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:36.839 those signatories who will likely refuse to extradite Putin should 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:40.120 mister Putin visit them. And this has actually happened before, 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:46.400 so I think it was South Africa refused to extradite 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:49.360 a former head of states. I think it was a 0:10:49.400 --> 0:10:53.080 leader of self suit done. But yeah, it wasn't it 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:56.720 wasn't it Olmarba Shar, Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:10:56.840 --> 0:10:59.480 I believe it was Olmarba Shar. Yeah. So he mactually 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:04.160 travel our m and was not arrested and extradited as 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:11.760 theoretically should have been. However, um, it still gives mister 0:11:11.840 --> 0:11:16.240 Putin and especially a security details some headaches because they're 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:18.040 still going to have to check with these states when 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:19.640 they go and visit you know, Hey, are you going 0:11:19.679 --> 0:11:22.760 to like arrest him yea, which is not like a 0:11:22.840 --> 0:11:26.160 cool usually have to ask. And then if they were 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:29.640 planning to arrest him, you know, they might not tell 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:32.160 them that they're planning to arrest them. So there's always 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:33.680 going to be well at the moment, there's still like 0:11:33.679 --> 0:11:36.839 a cost applied to mister Putin t other of traveling 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:39.640 to these countries that would still you know, might still 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:42.600 like consider the IC jurisdiction over the heads of state 0:11:42.679 --> 0:11:47.280 to be lacking. Um. Yeah, yeah, so there's still there's 0:11:47.320 --> 0:12:00.800 still like some some cost applied. Though if I'm rembering correctly, 0:12:01.200 --> 0:12:03.640 there have been three sitting heads of state that have 0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:07.240 faced ICC charges in office. We talked about Omar Bashir, 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:14.079 m Momar Kaddafi, and now Putin is number three, which 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:16.040 is if we're if we're looking at the history of 0:12:16.040 --> 0:12:18.640 the last you know, I mean just since the establishment 0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:21.480 of the ICC, fewer than the number of world leaders 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:27.040 who have been involved allegedly in crimes against humanity, I 0:12:27.040 --> 0:12:30.679 think fair to say, which brings us to the question of, like, 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:38.120 what does it mean to be a signatory to rome, 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:40.360 to the ICC, what does it mean to actually be 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:43.520 bound by any of these rules? Because both Russia and 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:45.720 the United States I was looking at a map earlier 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:49.920 that kind of lists out every country's relationship to the ICC, 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:52.840 and both Russia and the United States are in the 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:56.800 position of like having endorsed aspects of the ICC and 0:12:56.840 --> 0:13:01.520 then not signed on right, yeah, yeah, yeah, Again, not 0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:04.240 a liar, not that familiar with how the ICC works 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:08.080 in practice, But basically, if you sign up to the ICC, 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:10.760 you have to agree to enforce their judgments, you know, 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:13.920 including a restaurants, which again is something in the US, 0:13:14.000 --> 0:13:18.120 and US and Russia haven't done. The idea that basically 0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:22.080 the ICC markets itself as markets itself basically thinks of 0:13:22.080 --> 0:13:25.960 itself as a court of last resort. So you know, 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:29.400 they're not going to be out there prosecuting individual sold 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:32.280 or fair unlikely to be prosecuting like individual soldiers who've 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:35.600 like say, executed like teen Prinson of War in a ditch. 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:38.760 That's something that is unlikely that the ICC is going 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:43.000 to prosecute. They are going for you know, high in commanders, 0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:49.280 people who've carried out like extremely severe acts, and especially 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:52.400 in cases where like a state is not able to 0:13:52.440 --> 0:13:58.880 carry out such prosecution. So for example, take the UK, 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:08.280 so UK has in theory conducted investigations into allegations of 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:12.480 war crimes in a Rock, conducted by its troops. That 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:16.880 was I had so the Iraq Historic Allegations Team. It 0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:19.760 was pretty shambolic. It is extremely shambolic. It was a 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:25.400 really bad investigation. The not just for the victims who 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:29.800 basically no one really ever got justice from it, very 0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:31.640 very few people ever got justice from it, but also 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:34.479 the people who are actually accused were sometimes like investigated 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:38.960 multiple multiple times. But because the UK made some kind 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:41.600 of effort to investigate it, even if it was absolute shambolic, 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:45.640 it's unlikely that the ICC has ever actually going to 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:49.200 investigate UK soldiers for war crimes in the Rock, because 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:51.880 in theory that should be the UK carrying out their investigation, 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:54.880 and in theory they have carried out their investigation. It's 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:59.840 completely inadequate. But yeah, that's that's the justification. That's in 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:04.560 incredibly interesting to me because it does seem like On 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:06.320 one hand, I could see the logic, and this is 0:15:06.320 --> 0:15:08.880 part of why, like the US, the United States, my 0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:12.400 country's justification for why we are not a signatory is 0:15:12.440 --> 0:15:17.160 that the Constitution does not allow us to agree to 0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:20.760 have our citizens tried for crimes that they are being 0:15:20.800 --> 0:15:23.440 tried for in the United States by an international court. 0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:30.560 Something along those lines. And I can understand the idea that, like, well, 0:15:31.600 --> 0:15:34.720 national sovereignty, like, the only way we're going to get 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:37.560 anyone to agree to let this thing exist in abide 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:39.800 by any aspect of its rulings is if it does 0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:42.800 not overly interview with their national sovereignty and to including 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:47.280 their ability to prosecute their own soldiers for war crimes. 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:52.160 On the other hand, the state of affairs, as you've 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:55.080 just related, the state of affairs is inadequate, right, Like 0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:57.520 that is, the system that has been developed is not 0:15:57.560 --> 0:16:01.840 adequate to trying or achieving justice in a case like 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:04.040 the Iraq War in which there were a lot of 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:06.520 crimes committed that people have not been punished for. And 0:16:06.600 --> 0:16:10.600 I I mean, obviously you have to kind of marry 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:13.880 that to the fact that the attempt to do something 0:16:13.920 --> 0:16:17.680 at all in this way is extremely new, as we've said, 0:16:17.720 --> 0:16:21.240 like there are we have, like most of the people 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:24.080 who work on my show are older than the ICC, 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:27.320 and so that's that's still an achievement. I don't know, 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:29.520 I'm wondering kind of like what you see is like 0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:34.160 the positive future for attempts to hold individuals and nations 0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:36.880 to account here, Like is that is it continuing to 0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:39.440 grind like this or do you see kind of a 0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:43.360 more positive opening coming forward as a result of particularly 0:16:43.400 --> 0:16:45.480 the attention that all of these these war crimes in 0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:48.120 Ukraine have gotten. I mean, I think it will continue 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:51.200 to grind. When you look at the history of a 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:53.720 trusties have taken place in conflict over the last you know, 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:57.120 like twenty years, it's just absolutely huge. Yeah, you know, 0:16:57.160 --> 0:16:59.520 there's like a trusty upon a trustity upon a trusty, 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:02.240 and the ICC can only investigate a tiny number of those. 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:08.200 The reality is that only a tiny fraction of those 0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:11.280 atrocitees will ever actually be investigated in victims faced justice. 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:16.960 That is the reality of the situation. The ICC does, 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:20.760 you know, carry out investigations and does CARRYCT prosecutions, but 0:17:20.840 --> 0:17:24.479 again we're talking like the most grave crimes possible, and 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:27.760 usually you know, really senior people who often are able 0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:31.760 to evade those kind of prosecutions. I think there's a 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:35.159 better chance of some kind of justice at like a 0:17:35.240 --> 0:17:42.680 national level with universal jurisdiction. So recently, universe or jurisdiction 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:47.200 was used in Germany to prosecute two Syrian officers who 0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:51.840 have basically carried out torture against Syrians during during the revolution, 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:55.280 and those those two Syrian officers have basically fled to 0:17:55.400 --> 0:17:58.920 fled to Germany and related prosecuted that. And so it's 0:17:58.920 --> 0:18:01.879 not just the ICEC. It's all so universe jurisdiction is 0:18:02.560 --> 0:18:06.480 you know, trumbunals. There's other stuff there. But again, like 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:09.040 this is only a tiny fraction of everything that gets investigated. 0:18:09.280 --> 0:18:12.119 And I've been reading of going through several different books 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:17.959 about Joseph Mengela most recently and including some accounts from 0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:20.720 you know, Jewish doctors who are enslaved and who are 0:18:20.760 --> 0:18:23.840 forced to work at Auschwitz. And I've been thinking a 0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:28.199 lot about the the Nate, like the different kinds of 0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:31.679 war crimes. Right, you have a group of Australian or 0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:36.320 US or British soldiers in Afghanistan or Iraq who commit 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:39.000 a massacre, kill a number of civilians, and that is 0:18:39.040 --> 0:18:41.840 a war crime. But there's also the kinds of war 0:18:41.840 --> 0:18:43.600 crime that is a war crime that is the result 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:50.200 of individuals taking individual actions right as opposed to the 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:55.760 actions of a state, and the actions that are a 0:18:55.760 --> 0:19:00.800 result of years worth of directed culture efforts, which I 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:03.680 think is part a way to look at what the 0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:06.480 Russian state's attitude towards Ukrainians are and a lot of 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:08.480 the crimes that have been committed over there, the denial 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:12.399 of the existence of Ukrainians as a people is deeper 0:19:12.400 --> 0:19:14.679 and more complex than the kind of crime that a 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:18.640 soldier might commit in a moment of passion, and fundamentally 0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:21.480 different from that. And it's one of those things. If 0:19:21.200 --> 0:19:23.679 you like, for example, to go back to Mangola, if 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:26.919 you're trying to judge Mangola for his crimes, you have 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:29.720 to judge the entire German medical establishment, which joined the 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:32.040 Nazi Party in higher numbers than any other group in 0:19:32.040 --> 0:19:35.719 the country, and which was directly implicated in how Auschwitz 0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:38.400 functioned and why it worked the way it did. And 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:42.399 there's realistically, like most of the doctors Mangola, there were 0:19:42.440 --> 0:19:47.040 attempts to punish him. Obviously he escaped, but the doctors 0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:51.960 who educated him, who taught him, who inculcated him in 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:55.040 the attitudes that were directly responsible for the crimes that 0:19:55.080 --> 0:19:58.239 he committed, were never punished, And legally, I don't know 0:19:58.240 --> 0:19:59.840 how you would punish people for that. How do you 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:04.600 hundh someone for promuligating ideas like the ideas that Ukrainians 0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:06.320 are not a people, which leads to a lot of 0:20:06.320 --> 0:20:08.159 the violence that you're seeing over there, Like, how do 0:20:08.200 --> 0:20:11.520 you like there's not realistically, in at least in my 0:20:11.640 --> 0:20:13.639 understanding of the law, a way to punish that. But 0:20:13.680 --> 0:20:17.480 it is a factor in these crimes. Yeah, the creation 0:20:17.480 --> 0:20:20.840 of a culture absolutely is and a key Like a 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:24.000 really good example of this is the radio station Rwanda, Yes, 0:20:25.119 --> 0:20:29.000 who you know broadcast basically will effectively called to genocide. 0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:31.800 And I think they were actually ended up being prosecuted 0:20:31.800 --> 0:20:35.280 by the ICC, I think actually as well. I believe, Yeah, 0:20:35.280 --> 0:20:38.080 I believe there were at least attempts. Yeah, the International 0:20:38.119 --> 0:20:41.960 Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda. Yeah, I mean it's one thing 0:20:42.680 --> 0:20:46.000 when you're talking about like direct incitements to violence. It's 0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:48.680 another one you're talking about like kind of the stuff 0:20:48.680 --> 0:20:51.720 that Dugan is responsible for, which is absolutely a factor 0:20:53.000 --> 0:20:55.480 the kind of id the ideas that he was one 0:20:55.480 --> 0:20:57.679 of the people who has kind of promuligated under the 0:20:57.680 --> 0:21:02.199 direction of Putin and others in the Russian state are 0:21:02.320 --> 0:21:04.879 like a factor in the behavior that we've seen over there. 0:21:05.200 --> 0:21:08.040 But it also is harder to kind of qualify it 0:21:08.080 --> 0:21:11.240 as a direct call for war crimes in some cases, 0:21:11.240 --> 0:21:13.040 although some of the stuff Dugan has said, I think 0:21:13.200 --> 0:21:15.520 you could you could argue is certainly like a direct 0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:19.320 call to violence. Yeah, I mean, like yeah, where it's 0:21:19.320 --> 0:21:21.719 really difficult to kind of get that to raise up 0:21:21.760 --> 0:21:26.480 to the threshold of prosecution. It's really difficult thing to do, 0:21:26.880 --> 0:21:29.879 especially if you are external to the culture that is 0:21:30.560 --> 0:21:33.040 or to the organization that is creating that internal culture. 0:21:33.359 --> 0:21:36.119 And I'm like very familiar with this kind of stuff, 0:21:36.160 --> 0:21:39.199 having for those of you if you listened from one 0:21:39.320 --> 0:21:42.399 will be familiar. I was an army officer, so like 0:21:42.680 --> 0:21:44.760 quite a big part of my job was making sure 0:21:44.800 --> 0:21:50.960 that like the culture within my cartoon was a beneficial, 0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:55.239 good culture in which the blokes would knock go off 0:21:55.280 --> 0:21:59.679 and like murder people. And you read about stories like 0:22:00.119 --> 0:22:03.359 my Lie or there's a really good example for this 0:22:03.400 --> 0:22:08.199 book called Black Hearts. This American pluting in Iraq, and 0:22:08.240 --> 0:22:11.600 it's really clear where basically institutional culture has completely failed 0:22:12.080 --> 0:22:16.800 or has created a culture in which basically committing atrocities 0:22:16.880 --> 0:22:22.119 or murder is either you know, mildly ignored or actively encouraged. 0:22:22.640 --> 0:22:24.920 And yeah, that that culture is something that is really 0:22:24.920 --> 0:22:27.280 difficult to police because it really has to come from 0:22:27.280 --> 0:22:31.880 within the institution itself, you know, unless you just completely 0:22:31.880 --> 0:22:35.600 destroy the institution itself, which is also another option, which 0:22:35.640 --> 0:22:37.680 is what the Canadians did were the Airborne Regiment after 0:22:38.320 --> 0:22:43.320 some of their guys in Somalia like roasted some poor 0:22:43.320 --> 0:22:47.080 guy alive on a fire. Jesus, the Canadians basically just 0:22:47.119 --> 0:22:49.679 disbanded the entire Airborn regiment. They basically said, like, the 0:22:49.680 --> 0:22:53.720 culture in this regiment is not it's too far gone. Basically, 0:22:54.320 --> 0:22:56.439 we're going to disband this entire regiment, which is what 0:22:56.480 --> 0:22:58.080 they did. So you can do that too, but it's 0:22:58.160 --> 0:23:10.560 quite a difficult thing to do, kind of The last 0:23:10.560 --> 0:23:14.280 thing I wanted to go over is the most recent 0:23:14.560 --> 0:23:19.040 the response of the Russian state to these warrants. One 0:23:19.080 --> 0:23:20.879 of them has been they've announced that they are in 0:23:21.160 --> 0:23:26.040 carrying out an investigation into the ICC, which is it, 0:23:26.160 --> 0:23:32.480 you know, Um, I'm sure as meaningful as the sentence 0:23:32.520 --> 0:23:36.359 I just said. And I the other thing that they've 0:23:36.359 --> 0:23:41.120 done is sort of threatened to launch a hypersonic warhead 0:23:41.359 --> 0:23:46.560 at the Hague, which I mean, like, it's not he 0:23:47.080 --> 0:23:49.960 does have a lot of missiles, so it's you can't 0:23:50.000 --> 0:23:53.240 like completely disregard a threat from a nuclear armed nation 0:23:53.280 --> 0:23:56.359 to launch missiles at the Hague. But um, it's also 0:23:56.480 --> 0:24:01.919 just you know, threats like the are not completely and 0:24:02.000 --> 0:24:05.960 in fact, there's a provision in um what is it called. 0:24:06.040 --> 0:24:07.879 Let me let me double check on the name here. 0:24:07.920 --> 0:24:10.240 I'm so bad at remembering the names of laws. Um, 0:24:10.280 --> 0:24:14.040 the American service Members Protection Act that does theoretically allow 0:24:14.080 --> 0:24:17.320 the use of military force by the US if American 0:24:17.400 --> 0:24:22.679 citizens are extradited. Um, So like this is this is 0:24:22.720 --> 0:24:25.439 like a much cruder version of that like if you 0:24:25.600 --> 0:24:30.800 arrest us, will well will nuke they. But it does 0:24:30.840 --> 0:24:32.679 like it's one of those things we're laughing about it. 0:24:33.119 --> 0:24:35.160 But if you if you were to go back ten 0:24:35.240 --> 0:24:38.960 years and imagine that threat being leveled, like even by Putin, 0:24:39.200 --> 0:24:43.760