1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: today's best minds. 4 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:10,879 Speaker 2: We're on vacation, but that doesn't we don't have a 5 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 2: great show for you today. Historia Julian Zellazar tells us 6 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:16,279 Speaker 2: about the lessons from history that we can take to 7 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 2: what's happening in our politics today. 8 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Fast Politics. 9 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 3: Seek Thanks Molly. 10 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: It is a wild, wild ride for cryptocurrency. Can you 11 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: You've written a book on it. You have quite a 12 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 1: lot of knowledge this moment. Did you see this moment coming? 13 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 3: Absolutely not. I mean crypto had totally crashed in twenty 14 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 3: twenty two, and some of the biggest companies in the 15 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 3: industry had been revealed to be frauds, including Sam bankman 16 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:51,559 Speaker 3: Fried's FTX, but also like a ton of other big companies, 17 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 3: and all of the cryptocurrency prices started creeping back, first 18 00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 3: because of a Bitcoin etf which crypto people believed correctly 19 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 3: would open up the market to a new group of 20 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:08,680 Speaker 3: buyers who might have been too nervous to open an 21 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 3: account on coin base to buy bitcoin, but happy to 22 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 3: do it through their Schwab account. And then the bitcoiner 23 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 3: started talking up the possibility that Trump could become an 24 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 3: advocate for the industry, and it didn't seem like a 25 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 3: natural fit at first because Trump had called bitcoin a 26 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 3: scam back in as recently as twenty twenty one, and 27 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 3: he some of the lawsuits against the crypto industry that 28 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 3: the industry is really up in arms about now were 29 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:38,840 Speaker 3: started during the Trump administration. But a bunch of like 30 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 3: the biggest richest bitcoin advocates got together and they raised 31 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 3: twenty five million dollars for Trump, and in July they 32 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 3: got him to come to Nashville to the Bitcoin Convention, 33 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 3: which is like an annual it's wild. It's almost like 34 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 3: a religious revival or like a multi level marketing meeting. 35 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 3: People are just talking about how bitcoin's going to save 36 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 3: the world. And Trump came there and gave this speech 37 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 3: about how if bitcoin's going to the moon, the US 38 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 3: should lead the way and we should start a national 39 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:11,920 Speaker 3: Bitcoin reserve, and if I'm going to fire Gary Gensler, 40 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 3: the SEC chair who the crypto industry hates, and I 41 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 3: mean even the bitcoin guys were impressed by how much 42 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 3: influence their donations were able to buy. 43 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, I shouldn't laugh, but like the fact that they 44 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 1: just figured out that they could just pay Trump and 45 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:34,359 Speaker 1: it would work. It's kind of incredible. 46 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 3: The guy who came up with the plan, his name's 47 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 3: David Bailey. He runs Bitcoin magazine and these conventions, and 48 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 3: he went on a podcast and talked about it, and 49 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:49,359 Speaker 3: he said he was amazed that ten people donating eight 50 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 3: hundred and forty four thousand each could have a huge impact. 51 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:55,799 Speaker 3: He said, it's a lot of money, but also kind 52 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 3: of nothing, and like he was almost like giddy that 53 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 3: he'd gotten Trump on board. And Trump now you might say, Okay, 54 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 3: politicians say a lot of things to raise money. Is 55 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 3: Trump actually going to does he really care about this? 56 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 4: A month or. 57 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 3: Two later, Trump started his own cryptocurrency and started promoting 58 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,359 Speaker 3: it during the campaign, which kind of annoyed a lot 59 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 3: of his crypto supportives because they were like, Oh, you're 60 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 3: supposed to be promoting our cryptocurrency, it's not starting a 61 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 3: competing one. But they also liked it because they're like, 62 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 3: a guy with this kind of conflict of interest is 63 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 3: definitely going to follow through on his deregulatory promises. 64 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:33,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, where are we now? Okay, So crypto, 65 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: there was all this fraud. It went down. Now Trump 66 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: has they see the writing, the regulatory writing on the wall, 67 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 1: which is it will never be regulated, or at least 68 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: not for the next four years. Explain to me why 69 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: there's anything redeeming about crypto. 70 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 3: So there's all different kinds of cryptocurrencies, and like when 71 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 3: it comes to Bitcoin, the biggest, most popular one, a 72 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 3: nobody uses bitcoin for anything. It's all about the price 73 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 3: going up. And the bitcoiners have even abandoned talking about 74 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 3: it becoming a world currency that we'd use to buy 75 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 3: coffee or whatever. That one just depends on if you 76 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 3: really believe that, like this is a future and everyone's 77 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 3: gonna buy bitcoin, then you better get in now before 78 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 3: they cost a million. That's sort of the pitch. There 79 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 3: other cryptocurrencies. A lot of them are similar to stocks, 80 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:28,719 Speaker 3: and so they might be their value might depend on 81 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 3: the success of a trading platform or something, so you 82 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 3: can it's not like based on nothing. You can sort 83 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 3: of evaluate whether you think that's a good idea. And 84 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 3: then one of the biggest things going on in crypto 85 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 3: these days is gambling on meme coins like dogecoin. Like 86 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 3: it all it is is like do you think this 87 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,919 Speaker 3: picture of a dog is funny, then buy the coin, 88 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 3: or do you think other people will think it's funny 89 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,600 Speaker 3: by it now before they do it, And so like that, 90 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 3: even if you, let's say you think that is kind 91 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 3: of stupid, well, even if you think it's stupid, if 92 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,599 Speaker 3: you think people are going to keep playing these silly, 93 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 3: mean coin games that will generate activity on crypto trading 94 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 3: platforms and might support the value of some of the cryptocurrencies, 95 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:14,720 Speaker 3: It's sort of like, even if the whole thing is 96 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 3: kind of dumb, as long as other people are doing it, 97 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 3: some of these are going to end up being valuable. 98 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:23,720 Speaker 1: So basically this has no purpose except to go up 99 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: like a stock. 100 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 3: Right, there's like a crypto for everything. For my book 101 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 3: number go up. I spent like a couple of years 102 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 3: trying to answer this question, and I looked all around 103 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 3: the world to see, like, what are people using this for? 104 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 3: And is there anything beyond gambling on the price going up? 105 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:43,039 Speaker 3: Because I think in the long run it's got to 106 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 3: do something useful or people are going to get sick 107 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 3: of it. I did find some things that people were 108 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 3: using it for, but they were bad drugs. Right, That's 109 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 3: like the classic one which really got bitcoin started people 110 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:58,600 Speaker 3: buying drugs on the dark web, which now is not 111 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:00,599 Speaker 3: like one of the main things with big but in 112 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:03,160 Speaker 3: the early years that really got it going. And actually 113 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 3: the bitcoinner's got Trump to promise to pardon Ross Olbright, 114 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 3: who ran silk Road, the original darknet drug market, because 115 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 3: they love what he did for bitcoin. But for example, 116 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 3: if you ever have gotten like a wrong number text message, 117 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 3: you'll find out that the person on the other end 118 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 3: is trying to become your friend, and then they try 119 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:27,280 Speaker 3: to scam you. They'll have you send them crypto. And 120 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 3: for those kinds of people, crypto's great because the scammers 121 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:35,279 Speaker 3: are actually located generally in Southeast Asia, and so crypto 122 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 3: and now allows them to receive money instantly from you 123 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 3: with no refunds, without having to disclose their identity to 124 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,600 Speaker 3: some kind of bank, so it's super charged. This scam 125 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 3: called pig butchering, which are like these online romance scams, 126 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 3: so for them very useful. I also saw which I 127 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:54,480 Speaker 3: think is sort of a preview of what we might expect, 128 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 3: like a if crypto's allowed to run wild. In twenty 129 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 3: twenty one, this cryptocurrency took off in the Philippines and 130 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 3: it was called Axie Infinity, and it was basically like 131 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 3: a Pokemon type game, but you had to buy your 132 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 3: monsters with cryptocurrency, and if you won battles, you would 133 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 3: earn other cryptocurrencies that were called smooth Love potions, kind 134 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 3: of a silly name. And this, like it got so 135 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 3: popular that like people were quitting their jobs to play 136 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 3: this game, like millions of people were playing it, and 137 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 3: for a time you could make really good money at it. 138 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 3: But it was just like an unsustainable bubble that inevitably 139 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 3: popped and led to devastation. I talked to went over 140 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 3: there and talked with people who'd like sold their car 141 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 3: to buy more monsters to battle and then lost it 142 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 3: all when it popped. 143 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 4: So it's like drugs a little bit, okay, sure, a 144 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 4: little bit. 145 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 1: And then they're the apes, right, people are buying the 146 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: apes again. Can you explain that? 147 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 3: No one can explain that. So people are paying tens 148 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 3: of thousands, hundreds of thousands of dollars for board apes, 149 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 3: which are it's like an ugly cartoon of a monkey, 150 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 3: and it lives on the blockchain. So like in crypto 151 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 3: land during the last bubble, the price of these went 152 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 3: really high and like all sorts of celebrities were buying 153 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 3: them or maybe being given them. Right, Yeah, but you 154 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:19,559 Speaker 3: had Jimmy Fallon, Paris, Hilton, Tom Brady were all showing 155 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 3: off the board apes. This bitcoin boom, now with Trump selection, 156 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 3: has even helped those. I was shocked I had bought 157 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 3: actually just for research. Don't think I'm an ape person, 158 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,319 Speaker 3: but I bought a mutant ape in order to get 159 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 3: into an exclusive eight party and who among us? It 160 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 3: cost twenty thousand dollars. 161 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 4: Wow. 162 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 3: So this meant that, like I could brag about being 163 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 3: the owner of this kind of melty looking ape cartoon, 164 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 3: and the prices of those went down as low as 165 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 3: five grand, which I still thought was quite a lot 166 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 3: to pay for a picture a really bad cartoon, but 167 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:02,079 Speaker 3: they've since tripled. That's sort of like the whole paradox 168 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:04,839 Speaker 3: of this recent crypto rally. The celebrities are not buying 169 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 3: board apes anymore. Nobody's even really talking about it. There's 170 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:11,959 Speaker 3: just been this big speculative boom that like crypto is 171 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 3: going to be deregulated, that's going to bring in lots 172 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 3: of new customers. And you know, if you get in now, 173 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 3: it's smart because everything's gonna boom under Trump. That's sort 174 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 3: of the pitch I think. 175 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: Huh, all right, so besides the fact that it's stupid 176 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: it makes no sense, it's also really bad for the environment, right, 177 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 1: explain that to us. 178 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 3: So this is only really true of bitcoin. But the 179 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 3: I mean, what makes crypto cool is that, if anything does, 180 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 3: is that it's a way for people to transact with 181 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 3: each other without any sort of central counterparty, Like you 182 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 3: don't need a bank, you don't need PayPal. It's like 183 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 3: a decentralized system that it is controlled by the by 184 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 3: the users. And Bitcoin was set up in this innovative 185 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 3: but very convoluted way that the computers that are running 186 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 3: the bitcoin network basically compete to solve these random math 187 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:21,959 Speaker 3: problems in order to win new bitcoins that are generated periodically. 188 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 3: This process is called mining, and whoever has the most 189 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 3: powerful computers is more likely to solve the puzzle and 190 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 3: win these new coins. And this has gotten to be 191 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 3: such a big activity that people are running whole data 192 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 3: centers full of bitcoin miners. And at one point, I 193 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 3: think it was calculated that bitcoin mining was using as 194 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:47,680 Speaker 3: much energy as like the country of Argentina or something 195 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 3: like that, and it doesn't have to be that way. 196 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 3: Most other cryptocurrencies do not use this mining system and 197 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:56,679 Speaker 3: have come up with other ways to run their networks. 198 00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 3: But the bitcoiners will never switch because they believe it's 199 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 3: of what makes bitcoins so secure and special. 200 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:07,560 Speaker 1: But it's not secure. It's just a total scam, right, 201 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,440 Speaker 1: I mean, am I missing something here? It feels like 202 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 1: the Emperor has no clothes. 203 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 3: I mean I considered using an Emperor has no clothes 204 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 3: quote as like the epitaph for my book. So I 205 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 3: don't think you're that far off. I mean I wouldn't say, Like, 206 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:25,439 Speaker 3: you know, there's a lot of smart people who are 207 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:27,679 Speaker 3: like trying to do stuff in crypto, and like maybe 208 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:30,959 Speaker 3: they'll come up with something cool, But so far, what 209 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:32,959 Speaker 3: I think they've done is come up with this sort 210 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 3: of alternative financial system that is very useful for criminals, 211 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:39,080 Speaker 3: that makes it really easy to scam people, and that 212 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 3: is not solving a lot of problems for ordinary people. 213 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 1: So why does it exist? 214 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 3: Well, selling made up coins for real money is like 215 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 3: a really good way to make money. 216 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess that makes sense. 217 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 3: And it's like a really powerful story. Right, Like we 218 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 3: all know somebody or have heard about somebody who got 219 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:02,079 Speaker 3: rich off bitcoin. It's impossible not to feel a little 220 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 3: bit of like fomo. And then when someone comes to 221 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:08,199 Speaker 3: you and pitches some new cryptocurrency and says, hey, this 222 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 3: could be like the next Bitcoin. This could make you rich. 223 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 3: It sounds kind of plausible because it does happen to me. 224 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 3: It's amazing how far this mentality has taken this industry. 225 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 4: I like this. 226 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 3: There's a quote I really like that a bitcoin guy 227 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 3: said at my first bitcoin conference in Miami in twenty 228 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:30,599 Speaker 3: twenty one, and he said, bitcoin is number go up technology. 229 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 3: It's a very powerful piece of technology. As the price 230 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 3: goes higher, more people become aware of it and buy 231 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:40,959 Speaker 3: it in anticipation of the price continuing to climb. And like, 232 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:43,679 Speaker 3: I'm in the audience laughing, thinking like, wait, I thought 233 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 3: you guys were going to be talking about something real. 234 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 3: It sounds like a Pozi scheme. And yet actually the 235 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 3: thing that he's saying for has been working. Like people 236 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 3: do think, oh my god, I better get in on 237 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 3: this while I still can. Well, my friend made some money, 238 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:01,319 Speaker 3: couldn't I? Or or even a hedge fund manager is 239 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 3: like other guy's returns were like one hundred percent because 240 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 3: he got a lot of crypto. Maybe I don't really 241 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 3: believe in it, but I don't want to miss out. 242 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 1: It's so crazy. Talk me through what you think is 243 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 1: going to happen. There was fear of regulation. There's not 244 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 1: going to be regulation now. Obviously that means what more municipalities. 245 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 1: I mean, like, I know Miami took bitcoin, that there 246 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,719 Speaker 1: was some bitcoin people paying their taxes in bitcoin. I mean, 247 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 1: I've read that there are a group of conservatives who 248 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 1: think that the bitcoin can destabilize the dollar. I mean, 249 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: sort of talk me through their grand plans. 250 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 3: So for the bitcoiners, what they really want is for 251 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:45,439 Speaker 3: the US government to start buying bitcoin. And Senator Cynthia 252 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 3: Lummis of Wisconsin, who you know used to have laser 253 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:51,680 Speaker 3: eyes on her Twitter profile, has been a big bitcoiner. 254 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 3: She proposed this bill that would have the government spend 255 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 3: one hundred billion real dollars to buy bitcoin. 256 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 4: Why well, if. 257 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 3: It goes up a lot, we'll make some money on it. 258 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:09,680 Speaker 3: Trump has sort of endorsed this plan, not specifically, but 259 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 3: this general idea. And he even said, hey, maybe we'll 260 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:15,680 Speaker 3: pay off the national debt. Just hand him a little 261 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 3: bitcoin check. 262 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: Does he know that bitcoin isn't like you can't put 263 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: it on a check. 264 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 3: You know, caught him some slack. He's pretty old. 265 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 2: You know. 266 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 3: This To be clear, it doesn't make any sense you would. 267 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 3: I mean, the government would need to invest. Even if 268 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 3: you think bitcoin is going to double or something. The 269 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 3: government would need to buy a lot more bitcoin to 270 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 3: make a dent and to help our finances. I mean, 271 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 3: what this is is basically I don't want to cut 272 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 3: some bailouts. Not quite the right word because bitcoin has 273 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 3: gone up so much anyway, But it's like a giveaway 274 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 3: to the bitcoiners. It's like the government coming in and 275 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 3: pushing that price up more, which will benefit the existing holders, 276 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 3: and the bitcoiners say, oh, well, it's going to be great. 277 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 3: Once we do it, the other countries will be jealous 278 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 3: and they'll do it too, and it'll the price will 279 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 3: go up even more and then will profit. It's basically 280 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 3: like this number go up technology pitch that I heard 281 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 3: years ago. Now you have this whole other side of 282 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 3: the crypto industry that's not so into bitcoin. They want 283 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 3: to sell you all these like random coins, and basically 284 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 3: what they want is just more ability to sell more 285 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 3: random coins to more people. Like I would compare it 286 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 3: to like draft Kings or fan duel, you know, and 287 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 3: how so many states have legalized sports gambling, and like 288 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 3: just more people are doing it is advertise more on TV. 289 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 3: And right now under Gary Gensler, the current SEC chair, 290 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 3: the SEC has sued lots of people who are promoting 291 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 3: crypto gambling and said that you're violating the existing rules 292 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 3: about marketing investments. And the new chair, who Trump wants 293 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 3: to nominate, Paul Atkins, has signaled that he disagrees with 294 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 3: that approach. And I would imagine a lot of these 295 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 3: lawsuits would be dropped, so that will just make more 296 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 3: and more financial institutions feel comfortable with offering crypto to 297 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 3: their customers. And I would expect to see We already 298 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 3: see it quite a lot, Like I go on Venmo 299 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 3: and it's trying to sell me crypto. But I think 300 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 3: we'd see even more of that, even more weird coins. 301 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 3: Did you see Haley Welch's coin the other day? Oh? 302 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, the hawk Tua? 303 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, but. 304 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 1: Didn't that already get thought of? Is already a scam? 305 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 1: The hawk Tua. 306 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 3: It did immediately crash, but who's counter Yeah, it didn't 307 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 3: go that far because I mean, let's she's not like 308 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 3: that famous, right, and it's not clear like the legality 309 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 3: of that kind of activity is kind of unclear. If 310 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 3: it was all sort of legalized and given this stamp 311 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 3: of regulatory approval, maybe you wou'd see more famous people 312 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 3: doing stupid coins. 313 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, there you go, Zeke, thank you for coming 314 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: on and talking about this. I cannot believe that it 315 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 1: is even stupider than I thought it was going to be. 316 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 3: Thanks Molly. 317 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 2: Julian Zelzar is a historian and the author of many books, 318 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 2: including the upcoming paperback edition of Defense of Partisanship. 319 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Fast Politics. 320 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 4: Julian, thank you. It's great to be with you. As always. 321 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,400 Speaker 1: I'm so excited to have you a because we're buddies, 322 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,719 Speaker 1: and be because I'm very excited about this book. So 323 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: talk to me about kind of why you decided to 324 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: write this. You're an academic, you write also many many 325 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 1: books because you're very prolific, unlike the rest of us. 326 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 1: How did you get here? 327 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 4: Well, you know, you know, partisanship is always something that's disparaged. 328 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:50,680 Speaker 4: People complain about it every day. You can always turn 329 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,200 Speaker 4: on the news and hear people talk out the need 330 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 4: for more bipartisanship. And I've just seen enough history and 331 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:00,199 Speaker 4: studied enough history to see parties have actually been really 332 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 4: important in American politics. And just because partisanship has gotten 333 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 4: really ugly in the last decade, especially as a result 334 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,120 Speaker 4: of the GOP, it doesn't mean partisanship isn't a good 335 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,119 Speaker 4: thing for American politics. And I just basically wanted to 336 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 4: make the case about why and what that could look 337 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 4: like going forward. 338 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: I think you should give us an example of good 339 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:23,639 Speaker 1: partisanship and bad partisanship. 340 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 4: Sure. Well. One example of partisanship that was quite important 341 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 4: was when Democrats were in the minority during President George W. 342 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 4: Bush's term between two thousand and four and two thousand 343 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,400 Speaker 4: and six. They were really angry with what was happening. 344 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 4: There's a lot of frustration with the war in Iraq 345 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 4: and a lot of domestic policy, including Hurricane Katrina, and 346 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 4: Democrats organized as a minority party. They were very disciplined, 347 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:57,200 Speaker 4: they were responsible, they worked within the normal processes of government, 348 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 4: and they basically formed an opposition that resulted in their 349 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 4: taking over Congress in two thousand and six. One other 350 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 4: example different is after nineteen sixty four election, Lyndon Johnson 351 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 4: was president, Democrats had huge majorities, and they use that 352 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 4: moment to pass a lot of very important legislation. The 353 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:21,399 Speaker 4: great society that's still with us today. Bad partisanship. I 354 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 4: think a lot of public and politics in the last 355 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:27,399 Speaker 4: few years of the Tea Party in twenty eleven, in 356 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 4: twenty twelve, and a lot of what we saw under 357 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 4: the first Trump term was partisanship without any guardrails. Say 358 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 4: whatever you want, use basic processes of government like raising 359 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:42,640 Speaker 4: the debt ceiling to threaten the nation. That's bad partisanship. 360 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 4: You have to have guardrails. In a sense of responsibility. 361 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: Tell me what this sort of political moment looks like 362 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 1: if you were to think of a time that's like 363 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:53,679 Speaker 1: right now. 364 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 4: Well, I mean, I think we have very divisive times 365 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:00,360 Speaker 4: in American history. It's just part of our past. I mean, 366 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 4: I've studied the nineteen sixties and there were deep divisions 367 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 4: in the country. They didn't align along party lines so neatly, 368 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 4: but they were really bitter. People really kind of disliked 369 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:16,360 Speaker 4: what the other side was saying on an issue like Vietnam. Obviously, 370 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 4: in the nineteenth century had deep divisions over slavery. In 371 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 4: the eighteen fifties, and we're in a moment like that 372 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:27,679 Speaker 4: right now. But I think one of the differences is 373 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 4: one of the major political parties, Republicans, are engaging in 374 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,919 Speaker 4: the partisan battles that come out of these divisions without 375 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 4: any rules. And I tell my students often it's like 376 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 4: you have two sides playing chess. One side is trying 377 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:45,160 Speaker 4: to win, has strategy and legitimately trying to be victorious, 378 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 4: and the other just takes the board and throws it 379 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 4: on the floor and says I win. And I think 380 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 4: that is a really difficult moment, because in fact, we 381 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:57,359 Speaker 4: need strong and responsible parties right now to fight out 382 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 4: and resolve the differences that the country he has over 383 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 4: so many issues right now. 384 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:06,680 Speaker 1: I feel like there are are moments in history where 385 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 1: America has sort of come to the brink and come 386 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:11,680 Speaker 1: back from it. What would you say? 387 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 4: This is sort of the closest to I don't think 388 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 4: we're in civil war territory, and I guess they differ 389 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 4: from some people. 390 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 1: That's good, we don't want to be that's good. I'm 391 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: happy to hear it. 392 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 4: But that's a low bar. I mean, it's really a 393 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:25,880 Speaker 4: low bar. 394 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 3: And what really. 395 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 4: Worries me is that we're at a moment when just 396 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 4: the government isn't able to do very basic things. I mean, 397 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,439 Speaker 4: now we keep going through these moments when there's almost 398 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 4: government shutdowns, and there are government shutdowns, but we're talking 399 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 4: about sending the country into default. It's like so extreme 400 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 4: right now that we can't even get to the bigger issues. 401 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 4: We're just trying to keep everything afloat. That's not a 402 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 4: civil war. And I do think the differences are serious 403 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,920 Speaker 4: in this country. I don't agree with some commentators who 404 00:21:55,960 --> 00:22:01,360 Speaker 4: think we exaggerate. I think there's differences over questions. There's problems. Yeah, 405 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,640 Speaker 4: we need our political system to be able to handle 406 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 4: those better and respond to those. But it's like I 407 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,679 Speaker 4: don't have exact comparisons, but some of it reminds me 408 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:11,920 Speaker 4: of the nineteen sixties. 409 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's interesting because in some ways the 410 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties was so much more scary and violent, but 411 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 1: in some ways it was also you know, it just 412 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: was a different America. When you are, like, when you're 413 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 1: thinking about what democrats should be doing, because if you 414 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 1: think sort of historically, what do you think that democrats 415 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: are sort of if they could take a page from 416 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 1: being an opposition party. 417 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean this is the moment not to run 418 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 4: away from partisanship and to just embrace the Republican Party. 419 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,879 Speaker 4: I think concessions ahead of time and really trying to 420 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 4: move away from what the party is about is a 421 00:22:56,040 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 4: huge mistake. This is the time when effective opposition or organizes. 422 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 4: That means the leaders of the party Congressman Jefferies, Senator 423 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 4: Schumer need to really lean on every member of their 424 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 4: caucus to stay in line to vote the same way. 425 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 4: That means using financial pressure, that means using political pressure 426 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 4: on members of their party. They need to really distinguish 427 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 4: themselves from what Republicans are doing and not be scared 428 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,160 Speaker 4: to call out what they're seeing from the GOP. That's 429 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 4: the only way to kind of take a party from 430 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 4: a weak place and put it in a stronger place 431 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 4: in two years to start. And they also can't be 432 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 4: scared of standing up to the GOP. They don't have 433 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 4: to start voting for every item that comes their way, 434 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 4: and they can be fine really say no, as Republicans 435 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 4: have been. But again I go back to Democrats of 436 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 4: earlier periods like the Bush years, and they did that 437 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 4: very effectively, and it was quite important to reversing the 438 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 4: direction of policies. I think Democrats need to kind of 439 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 4: have a spine on some of this and if they 440 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 4: want to be effective that they have to focus on 441 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 4: their party and not the GOP. 442 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: I want you to talk us through kind of the 443 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 1: ways in which, like I always think about, you know, 444 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,919 Speaker 1: the damage that Trump can do, and he's done a 445 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 1: lot of damage already. That isn't necessarily it's more of 446 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: the sort of the the how much these kind of 447 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:25,639 Speaker 1: institutions are no longer respected right that you know, those 448 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 1: kind of that kind of damage is hard to ever 449 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 1: sort of undo, right, or at least because you have 450 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,199 Speaker 1: one party that thinks a lot of things, you know, 451 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,640 Speaker 1: they just doesn't trust the system. Have there been times 452 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 1: when there was one party that didn't trust the system 453 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 1: where that came back or. 454 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 4: No, Well, yeah, I mean look at the Democrats. Actually, 455 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 4: it's kind of funny or interesting that in the nineteen 456 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 4: seventies a lot of Democrats had totally lost distrust in 457 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 4: the political system. They were the ones railing against the FBI, 458 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:58,399 Speaker 4: they were the ones railing against the presidency. They felt 459 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 4: as if, you know, they were the disenchanted group that 460 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 4: the institutions of government didn't work and had essentially betrayed 461 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 4: the country. And look where they are now. They've become 462 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:13,920 Speaker 4: the party that respects institutions that basically even seen their flaws, 463 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:18,160 Speaker 4: say they're important. So you can see parties really changed dramatically. 464 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,719 Speaker 4: I talk about this a lot these days, as the 465 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 4: Democrats are the ones defending the FBI as opposed to 466 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 4: the Republicans. But it takes a lot of work. And 467 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 4: the difference is Democrats are a party ultimately, even in 468 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 4: the bad times of the seventies, they always believed in government. 469 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:39,119 Speaker 4: They never abandoned the basic government's a good thing. Republicans 470 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 4: are an anti government party. That's their philosophy. So I 471 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 4: think they can be comfortable for a lot longer in 472 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 4: the space they are now. They don't need to have 473 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,919 Speaker 4: their voters trust institutions. They don't need their voters to 474 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 4: want government to work, because their argument rooted in the 475 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 4: nineteen eighties and Ronald Reagan is the government's the problem. 476 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:02,359 Speaker 4: So if that's true, their rebound could be never or 477 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:04,640 Speaker 4: it could take a lot longer until you see them 478 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:05,399 Speaker 4: change course. 479 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's not great. 480 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 4: No, I'm not being a voice of optimism here, although 481 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:16,200 Speaker 4: again the optimism is that we do have these institutions 482 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 4: that can be a way to channel, certainly for Democrats, 483 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 4: some of the frustration they're feeling, and really effective tool 484 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 4: to taking on a very aggressive president, which is what 485 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 4: we're going to see in the next four years. 486 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 1: Can you give me like an aggressive So Trump is 487 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 1: a very aggressive president. Who else historically has been a 488 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 1: very aggressive president? 489 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 4: Well, I mean the most obvious who comes to mind 490 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:45,199 Speaker 4: is Richard Nixon, and he really was. I think in 491 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,399 Speaker 4: some ways we forget sometimes in part because of the 492 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 4: focus now on Trump, but Nixon used the presidency he 493 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 4: is the irs, to go after his opponents. He authorized 494 00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 4: you know, break ins, an espionage. He threatened the press, 495 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 4: not simply rhetorically, but actually threatened them in ways that 496 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,680 Speaker 4: are reminiscent of today. And I think Nixon, who later 497 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,959 Speaker 4: remakes himself as this statesperson at the time, was an 498 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 4: incredibly you know, dangerous figure. There's a reason Watergate was 499 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 4: so traumatic. There's a reason Congress really pressured him to resign. 500 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 4: And I do think we've we have gone through a 501 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,439 Speaker 4: moment like this. Again that doesn't give comfort. It means 502 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,920 Speaker 4: this stuff can get very serious and very dangerous. And 503 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,199 Speaker 4: that's why now oversight, vigilance and opposition is going to 504 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 4: be very important assuming that president like Trump goes through 505 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:39,920 Speaker 4: with the things he's saying he's going to do, and 506 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 4: he's already started to do them. So I think the 507 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 4: bet is he's going to do what he says. 508 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 1: So I wrote a piece about a lot of these 509 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:52,239 Speaker 1: zombie laws, these laws that One of the things that 510 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 1: I think has been really interesting is that during the 511 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:59,119 Speaker 1: break between Trump one point zero and Trump two point zero, 512 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: Trump his people sort of went through and found laws 513 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,159 Speaker 1: that were still in the books but often like comstock, 514 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 1: had not been used much, and they were able to 515 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:15,439 Speaker 1: you know, Alien Enemies Act, right, and that has in 516 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: the Alien Enemies Act there is a sort of special 517 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:19,639 Speaker 1: cutout for journalists. 518 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,400 Speaker 3: What else do you? 519 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 1: What else sort of keeps you up at night? 520 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,919 Speaker 4: Legally, oh, I think there's a lot of legal things 521 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 4: he can do or already seeing how he's using before 522 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:36,159 Speaker 4: he's even in office. Again, he's using essentially threats of 523 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:41,239 Speaker 4: regulatory action against the media to try to pressure the 524 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 4: media into taming themselves and avoiding certain kinds of coverage. 525 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 4: I think the ABC settlement was significant. This new lawsuit 526 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 4: against the Iowa Paper. These are all legal. You can 527 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 4: do it if you don't mind what you're doing, and 528 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 4: I think we're going to see a lot of more 529 00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 4: of that. The kind of regulatory power of the government 530 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 4: over private media institutions and media that's increasingly connected to 531 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 4: other kinds of business is pretty formidable. Within any agency, 532 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 4: the executive has a lot of power too. This is 533 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 4: less about intimidation, but to cut budgets, to basically freeze 534 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 4: programs that Americans depend on to fill civil service jobs. 535 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 4: This could be one of the big moves to change 536 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 4: the way jobs staffing happens so that you have more 537 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 4: loyalist If he does that, that's it could be legal, 538 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 4: but it doesn't mean it's any better. And then finally, rhetorically, 539 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,240 Speaker 4: it's legal for him to say lots of stuff. Other 540 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 4: presidents just don't say it. But when a president goes 541 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 4: untruth social or whatever TV and starts to call people 542 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 4: out and really kind of put out in the world 543 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 4: words of threat and intimidation, that is a scary thing. 544 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 4: And that's not making things up. That's truly something to 545 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 4: be worried about. And it just creates an appmosphere where 546 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 4: opponents are scared to say anything, people change their behavior, 547 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 4: and finally, you can have huge and damaging effects on 548 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 4: government programs. So I think there's lots of legal things 549 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 4: as much as the illegal stuff that he can do, 550 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,479 Speaker 4: which is what causes his opponents concern. 551 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 1: The first Trump term, in the end, they didn't protect 552 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 1: institutions the way they did during the post Nixon period. 553 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 1: There were a few things though, that were done. For example, 554 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about the electoral vote counting stuff where they 555 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,240 Speaker 1: did sort of close the door on that. Do you 556 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 1: think that was a failure and do you think some 557 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 1: of that stuff is going to come back? 558 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 4: I mean, I don't have the failure I think they did. 559 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 4: I think so the electoral count or format they did 560 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 4: as much. Maybe they did as much as they could do, 561 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 4: so it's it's less it's a failure, not in not trying, 562 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 4: but that was it. But yeah, it's dangerous. I mean, 563 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 4: I'm not as worried in the next few years because 564 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 4: he won and I think he's obviously feeling good and 565 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 4: then we'll see what happens in the next election. But yes, 566 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 4: the issue is not addressed. Where he showed how much 567 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 4: you can stretch the existing systems of politics all remain vulnerabilities, 568 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 4: and there's no indication that he or other Republicans in 569 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 4: the future won't try to exploit them again. So yes, 570 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 4: you know, you have really small windows in American politics 571 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,239 Speaker 4: to try to reform things. That's just the reality. No 572 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 4: one cares about reform. Usually people focus on bread and 573 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 4: butter issues, and you have a few periods like the 574 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 4: nineteen seventies after Watergate, the progressive era, which is the 575 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 4: early twentieth century, where you have interest in reforming government 576 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 4: itself and how it works to fix problems. I think 577 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,720 Speaker 4: that window now has passed, so it's going to be 578 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 4: very hard to kind of go back to all these 579 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 4: issues and improve them. So it could come back to 580 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 4: bite the nation. We will see. 581 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 1: That does not sound so good, Julie, and I just 582 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 1: am curious. The sixties, you know, there was a different 583 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 1: kind of protesting. I mean, do you think there will 584 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 1: be a protest movement again with trump Ism or do 585 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: you think that it will look something different? And do 586 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: you think and how much do you think, Like historically 587 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 1: protests movements have moved the needle. 588 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 4: I mean, the thing about real moments of protests is 589 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 4: you don't see them coming, and so I don't know 590 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 4: I see him. There will be protests because I assume 591 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 4: he will do things that stir anger and outrage. Protest 592 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 4: movements can be effective, not all the time, but certainly, 593 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 4: like the anti war movement with Vietnam, it didn't end 594 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 4: the war, but it certainly made the opposition a much 595 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 4: more popular and understood issue than would have happened had 596 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 4: that anti war movement never existed. The Civil rights movement 597 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 4: as an example where the movement actually was responsible for 598 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 4: helping get legislation through the Civil Rights of nineteen sixty four. 599 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 4: So they can work, they don't always work. I do 600 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,440 Speaker 4: think back to earlier, it matters to have a very 601 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 4: strong political party that those movements end up working for. Ultimately, 602 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:14,400 Speaker 4: movements have limits to what they could do. It's when 603 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 4: they connect to a party with strong leadership then they 604 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 4: can be quite powerful, as we saw with civil rights 605 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 4: in the mid nineteen sixties. Finally, I do think some 606 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 4: opposition's not going to be about movements. I think because 607 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 4: of what you said earlier, this focus that the Trump 608 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 4: team has on rules, on institutions, on processes is going 609 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 4: to result in more of a tension within the opposition, 610 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 4: on legal strategy, on partisan strategy, on the hill, kind 611 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 4: of insider politics to take on what's going to be 612 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 4: an insider Trump be in game. So I do think 613 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 4: it won't just be movements this time around. I think 614 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 4: that's going to be quite important in terms of how 615 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 4: this unfolds. 616 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so too. It's really interesting and also 617 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 1: dark moment in American politics. 618 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 4: Thank you, Julian, thanks for having me. 619 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 620 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:16,400 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Saturday to hear the best 621 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:20,759 Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If 622 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,840 Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend 623 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.