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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds.

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Speaker 2: And Donald Trump continues to attack Judge Merchant's daughter. We

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Speaker 2: have such an interesting show today. The New York Times

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Speaker 2: Shane Goldmocker breaks down all the strange ways Trump is

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Speaker 2: paying his legal bills that we'll talk to polster Cornell

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Speaker 2: Belcher about how to analyze polls when giving to candidates.

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Speaker 2: But first we have the host of the Enemy's List,

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Speaker 2: Lincoln Project's own Rick Wilson.

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Speaker 1: Rick, it's a Friday, and that means it's done for insanitday,

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Speaker 1: Rick Wilson.

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Speaker 3: Sunday, Sunday Sunday. That kind of thrills, the spills you,

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Speaker 3: the fountains well to see and here, Sorry, I've probably

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Speaker 3: done that joke before, but it never gets old for me,

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Speaker 3: as a child of the seventies raised in Florida.

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Speaker 1: Never ever ever gets old. So it's a Friday, It's

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Speaker 1: two hundred and twenty one days to the election, two

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Speaker 1: hundred and a mere two hundred and twenty one days.

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Speaker 1: I feel like we've hit this moment in the news

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Speaker 1: site go where things are a little bit quiet but

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Speaker 1: also bubbling under the surface a little bit insane.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, look, I think the peak of this

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Speaker 3: week's insanity, of course, was Donald Trump, a lifelong retrobate, adulter, cheater, liar, procureur.

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Speaker 3: And I can think of a hundred different adjectives for

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump's low moral character. But the idea of Donald

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Speaker 3: Trump and Lee Greenwood, two men with seven wives between them,

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Speaker 3: marketing a American flag themed Trump Bible, I think that

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Speaker 3: in many ways it's like Trump's always challenging you to

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Speaker 3: like be shocked by his shamelessness. This was a good one.

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Speaker 3: This I gotta say. I gotta give the guy props.

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Speaker 3: If you're looking to be a shameless, venal scumbag who

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Speaker 3: is tempting the Lord to strike you down with lightning

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Speaker 3: or turn you into a pillar of salt, Donald Trump

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Speaker 3: is really really working the system this week. I'm impressed

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Speaker 3: with how completely shameless, I mean, how utterly shameless this

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Speaker 3: guy was about it.

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Speaker 1: Here's the thing about Trump Bibles. We knew, right this

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Speaker 1: is what he had been doing, sneakers. I mean, this

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Speaker 1: is a man even before he was a sort of

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Speaker 1: fake Christian grifter, when he was still a fake liberal grifter.

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Speaker 1: He was selling steaks and bombis, water models, vodka, mon

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Speaker 1: and also you'll remember he had, you know, all sorts

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Speaker 1: of weird real estate schemes that were like multi level

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Speaker 1: marketing schemes. So this is not a huge shock, but

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Speaker 1: if you look at the cover of it, it is

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Speaker 1: really a thing of I was going to say beauty,

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Speaker 1: but I was kidding.

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Speaker 3: It's a thing of audacity.

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Speaker 1: Holy Bible, God Bless the USA. And then there's a Bible.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know who this is for.

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Speaker 3: Again, I said this on my podcast yesterday. I'm like,

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Speaker 3: no one is going to wake up in the morning

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Speaker 3: and say that Rick Wilson, he's an exemplary Christian. He's

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Speaker 3: the best of the best. But when you look at

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Speaker 3: a guy like Donald Trump, the contrast here. I mean this,

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Speaker 3: I feel sorry for the Christians who believe Donald Trump

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Speaker 3: is one of them. I feel sorry for the Evangelicals

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Speaker 3: who have decided, Okay, you know, we kind of know

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Speaker 3: there's some issues with this guy, but he's our tribune,

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Speaker 3: he is our leader. He's the one who's going to

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Speaker 3: help us bring in the era of Christian nationalist government.

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Speaker 3: I feel bad for these people because Trump hates them.

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Speaker 4: Trump loaths them.

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Speaker 3: He thinks they are dumb, slack, jawed, blah blah blah.

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Speaker 3: All of that stuff is absolutely pathetic. It's absolutely fundamentally wrong.

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Speaker 3: You know, I don't have a lot of mercy for Maugas,

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Speaker 3: but I do feel like there are some of them

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Speaker 3: who are who feel trapped like well, it's either a

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Speaker 3: godless communist Joe Biden Satan worshiper, or Donald Trump flawed Christian. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I can tell you the fact that we've got Joe Biden,

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Speaker 3: who is, regardless of his liberalism, people still a Catholic

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Speaker 3: in the eyes of the Catholic Church, who goes to

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Speaker 3: church regularly, who takes mass regularly, versus Donald Trump again,

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Speaker 3: a reprobate, scumbag low life.

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Speaker 1: He takes omelet bars pretty regularly.

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Speaker 3: Right, He worships at the first Church of the golf

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Speaker 3: course on Sunday. This is not a guy who should

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Speaker 3: have the support of Christians because everything about him is

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Speaker 3: anathema to actual Christian practice and behavior. But once again,

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Speaker 3: call me crazy, because they frequently don't give a fuck.

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Speaker 1: So last week the presidents came three presidents.

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Speaker 3: By really lowered your voice the registered Last week.

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Speaker 1: Last switching time. I'm switching out of this tirade about

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump being a real or faith Christian because you know, honestly,

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Speaker 1: like organized religion is, I'm not so engaged in it,

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Speaker 1: and neither are a lot of Americans, which is super interesting.

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Speaker 1: But so we're talking about last week the presidents Biden,

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Speaker 1: Obama and Clinton came and they did a huge fundraiser

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Speaker 1: and they raised somewhere north of twenty five million dollars,

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Speaker 1: probably a little bit more. That was an underestimate. And

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Speaker 1: that same day, Megan Kelly wants you to know Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump went to a wake of a slain policeman in

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Speaker 1: I assume Long Island because that's where the Republicans are.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about that because it's like, now, look,

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Speaker 1: Biden has to raise money, and Biden is out raising

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Speaker 1: Trump at an enormous clip as well. He should be

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Speaker 1: because he wants to continue American democracy, which is what

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Speaker 1: we all want. But my question to you is the

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Speaker 1: fact that Trump actually went to awake and not a

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Speaker 1: golf club or to see an adult movie star makes

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Speaker 1: me wonder if Chris la Sevitas, if he's actually getting

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Speaker 1: a little bit better advice on the campaign trip.

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Speaker 3: You can't deny that he's getting better advice than he

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Speaker 3: would have gotten from Corey Lewandowski, or Brad Parscal or

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Speaker 3: Steve Bannon or a box car full of monkeys.

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Speaker 1: Okay, right, it doesn't take much to raise that I

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Speaker 1: forgot Brad from last season.

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Speaker 3: Yes, don't forget Brad, Brad, I got Brad fired.

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Speaker 1: The last time we saw Brad, he was wearing no

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Speaker 1: shirt and being coughed.

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Speaker 3: Yes, he was being knocked to the ground by the police.

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Speaker 3: Then he had a brief flirtation with Ron de sanctimonious

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Speaker 3: to use the name of Donald Trump. The reason he

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Speaker 3: went to this funeral was not to honor the memory

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Speaker 3: of a police officer who lost his life or was

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Speaker 3: injured in the line of duty. You know what, we

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Speaker 3: didn't give.

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Speaker 1: A shit about the Capitol policeman who died.

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Speaker 3: That's exactly the point. As many people said, did he

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Speaker 3: go to the funeral of Brian Sicknick, who died after

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Speaker 3: the Capital attack? No he did not. Did he go

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Speaker 3: visit any of the injured cops in the hospital. Absolutely not.

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Speaker 3: None of this is real. This is trolling.

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Speaker 1: Does he have better advisors? I think as a question.

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Speaker 3: He has better advisors, but again he has a deficit.

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Speaker 3: No matter how good the advice is, Donald Trump remains

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Speaker 3: this is a technical try we kind of use in

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Speaker 3: Republican politics. Batshit, bug, fuck nuthouse crazy, and he's not

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Speaker 3: going to be able to retain and maintain the idea

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Speaker 3: that he currently is expressing that He's like, I care

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Speaker 3: about these cops and I'm worried about crime. Are they

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Speaker 3: trying to frame the election about being crime and immigration?

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Speaker 3: Of course they are. Have they got some really big

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Speaker 3: deficits in that regard. Well, yeah, what with him being

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Speaker 3: a criminal in all, and what with Trump being the

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Speaker 3: one who's keeping an immigration bill and border security from passing.

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Speaker 3: They were trolling. They were looking for a way to

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Speaker 3: troll Joe Biden, and I'm sure las Avita or Susie

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Speaker 3: Wiles came up with this. And by the way, I'm

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Speaker 3: just going to say this right now because this will

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Speaker 3: be picked up by their algorithmic Google alerts. Chris Losovita

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Speaker 3: is the smartest, most brilliant campaign consultant Trump has ever had,

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Speaker 3: and he's smarter than Donald Trump by a long way.

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Speaker 3: I'm literally doing that just so that I know, for

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Speaker 3: a fact that they monitor every single mention of everybody

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Speaker 3: around him, now, like the fucking stazzy Right, anytime I

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Speaker 3: mention Chris Losovita in a way that praises him, Chris Losovida,

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Speaker 3: the golden God of political wisdom, it drives Trump crazy, right.

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Speaker 1: All right, So let's get back to this question though,

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Speaker 1: that Trump may be having better people advise him, which

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Speaker 1: I think is something that is worth thinking about. But

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Speaker 1: it is true that in Playbook this morning there was

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Speaker 1: a whole thing about how Trump is also like a

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Speaker 1: little bit freaked out that Biden's raising so much money,

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Speaker 1: and so there was a whole thing about how they're

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Speaker 1: going to raise thirty five million dollars at a fundraiser

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Speaker 1: at Mara Lago where the high ticket donor is eight

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Speaker 1: hundred and thirty eight one hundred thousand dollars, so almost

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Speaker 1: a million dollars to get I guess, a picture and

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Speaker 1: an omelet with Donald Trump.

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Speaker 3: Look what you are going to see in the coming weeks,

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Speaker 3: the large dollar Republican donors go back to Trump. Okay,

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Speaker 3: I've been saying it for a year. We've talked about

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Speaker 3: it before. They're all going to go back to Trump

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Speaker 3: in the end, and a couple of them have already

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Speaker 3: sort of like written their their apology for it, like

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Speaker 3: I want a true, a better country for my children

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Speaker 3: and grandchildren, and Trump is not good. He's not good

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Speaker 3: for this or that. Okay, fine, but make your whatever

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Speaker 3: excuses you want. You guys are all chicken shits, and

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Speaker 3: you want to fucking tax cut. We get it, Okay,

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Speaker 3: we get it. As they go back to him, there's

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Speaker 3: still a mathematical equation, like how do you get back

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Speaker 3: to the point where you have that much cash when

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Speaker 3: you're not burning the equivalent amount. Remember what Biden raised

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Speaker 3: last night is basically Trump's legal bills for I don't know,

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Speaker 3: January and February.

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Speaker 1: So the New York Times had a piece and we

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Speaker 1: actually had one of the journalists on the podcast about

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Speaker 1: how Trump has spent about one hundred million dollars on lawyers.

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Speaker 3: Yep, it's about right.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that I actually believe is proof

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Speaker 1: that the guard Whils have not had is that Trump

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Speaker 1: has managed to delay all of his trials, with the

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Speaker 1: exception of the New York City election interference hush money trial.

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Speaker 1: It turns out that delaying justice is quite expensive.

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Speaker 3: Look delaying justice is expensive. There's also something here that

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Speaker 3: I find I don't know who else doesn't find that offensive,

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Speaker 3: but I find it unbelievably offensive that you've got a

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Speaker 3: guy who is able to not only threaten the judges,

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Speaker 3: threaten their families, delay these trials over and over again,

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Speaker 3: exercise every single legal loophole in the known universe, and

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Speaker 3: the rule of law parties like fine with it. It's like, oh,

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Speaker 3: it's all fake, nothing's there, It's all fake, it's all imaginary.

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Speaker 3: What I think that is one of the things that

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Speaker 3: I as an ex Republican and as a guy who

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Speaker 3: still believes the rule of law is really important, which

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Speaker 3: I think anybody should believe that it's important. Right.

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Speaker 1: Liz Cheney would agree, And in fact, Liz Cheney is

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Speaker 1: filling these enormous stadiums with people talking about how and

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Speaker 1: I thought this was a ballsy move. The Supreme Core

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Speaker 1: is actually enabling trump Ism.

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Speaker 3: I will tell you very very clearly, there is a

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Speaker 3: world where the critique of Donald Trump from the right

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Speaker 3: gets its legs under it again, and it will never

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Speaker 3: be a majority of the Manga Party Like at the

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Speaker 3: Lincoln Project. We've gotten this joke for a long time.

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Speaker 3: We're not trying to win over fifty percent of Republicans.

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Speaker 3: I don't need to win over fifty percent of Republicans.

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Speaker 3: I need to move about twenty percent tops in a

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Speaker 3: couple of states. And the worse he gets with all

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Speaker 3: this stuff. And as Liz Cheney is, she's letting Republican voters.

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Speaker 1: She's an off ramp right right.

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Speaker 3: They understand that she is an unquestioned conservative. There's no

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Speaker 3: argument you can make in this universe or anywhere else

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Speaker 3: that Liz Cheney is some kind of liberal rhino squish.

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Speaker 3: You can't. It just doesn't work for anybody. The most

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Speaker 3: painful thing about leaving the Republican Party is nobody wants

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Speaker 3: to leave the warmth of the tribal campfire, right. They

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Speaker 3: don't want to walk away from their friends, their associates,

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Speaker 3: their lives. I know how hard it is. But when

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Speaker 3: you start to see prominent people who you know are

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Speaker 3: not secret liberals, who are not radical progressive Soros, you know,

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Speaker 3: Bill Gates, whatever, it's hard and harder for them to say, well,

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Speaker 3: the only option is Trump in this world, the only

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Speaker 3: choice it will ever be is Trump or Trump is

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Speaker 3: because it's not true, it's not the only option, and

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Speaker 3: it doesn't have to be. And so she's showing people

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Speaker 3: that if you believe as I do, that the country

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Speaker 3: would function better with two actual center right party or

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Speaker 3: two actual parties one center right one center left, then

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Speaker 3: you know you'll never get there. With Donald Trump. He's

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Speaker 3: only going to be an authoritarian lunatic for sure, and

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Speaker 3: he's only going to be that as long as Republicans

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Speaker 3: let him be that.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about Donald Trump for another minute. He is

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Speaker 1: threatening judges, he's threatening the daughter of the judge in

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Speaker 1: the hush money case. The thing I'm struck by with

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Speaker 1: him is like, obviously he's a bully, right, that's like

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Speaker 1: eighty percent of his personality, But threatening judges and threatening

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Speaker 1: these kind of threats to Republicans like it works, right,

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Speaker 1: Like Mitch McConnell endoors right, Like there is no world

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Speaker 1: in which Mitch McConnell is like, yes, Trump again, let's

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Speaker 1: go oh you know, I mean yeah, like he's.

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Speaker 3: Like, yeah, I can speak with some authority on that matter.

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Speaker 1: That is correct, yeah, right, Like he endorsed I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know all these people, Tom Emmers, you know Tom

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Speaker 1: Emmers is not like yes, you know this guy who

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Speaker 1: fucked me over and kept me from being speaker, even

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Speaker 1: though I'd be much better speaker than Mike Johnson. He's

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Speaker 1: my man. Like all of these people have gone and

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Speaker 1: kissed the ring because they're scared of him and they

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Speaker 1: don't want to spend what Mitt Romney did on private security.

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Speaker 1: I mean, is that right or is there some other

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Speaker 1: thing I'm missing.

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Speaker 3: As a guy who spends some money on private security. Yes.

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Speaker 3: And look when I went up against Trump initially in

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Speaker 3: fifteen and sixteen and they started to figure out, you know,

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Speaker 3: who was against them, they didn't just go at me.

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Speaker 3: They went at my children. And many many other people

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Speaker 3: have had this problem. I know a member, a former

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Speaker 3: member of Congress who was a rock ribbed conservative. Okay,

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Speaker 3: not a liberal, not some left winger. He was a

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Speaker 3: right wing dude. And he left Congress back in eighteen

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Speaker 3: in part because he said one thing in a town

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Speaker 3: meeting that wasn't like obedient to Trump. And his kids

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Speaker 3: school got death threats the next day and bomb threats

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Speaker 3: the next day, and his wife got people calling at

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Speaker 3: her office saying, you know, you better get your husband

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Speaker 3: do the right thing, or you'll be raising those girls

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Speaker 3: on your own. I mean, these people love threatening people.

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Speaker 3: They love trying to intimidate people. And I got to

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Speaker 3: tell you something. Here's the thing about these judges, And

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Speaker 3: I know they're all fearful, like, oh, if I you know,

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Speaker 3: sanction him, it'll blowback. No, you have to sanction him.

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Speaker 3: You have to punish him for saying these things. I

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Speaker 3: swear to God, the judge should call his lawyers in

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Speaker 3: and say one more goddamn word about my daughter trying

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Speaker 3: to intimidate me in this case. And Donald Trump is

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Speaker 3: going to be in fucking rikers with a ballgag in

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Speaker 3: his mouth, and he's going to stay there until I

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Speaker 3: decide he's calmed the fuck down. I mean, these people

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Speaker 3: are intimidated by him, and they need to stop or

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Speaker 3: he will kill them all. And by kill them, I

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Speaker 3: mean literally kill them if he gets the chance.

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Speaker 1: You don't want to be the person who ends up

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Speaker 1: putting Donald Trump in jail. That's going to be such

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Speaker 1: a nightmare.

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Speaker 3: It's a nightmare. But here's the thing. Do we have

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Speaker 3: one system of justice or two? Because if I was

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Speaker 3: a mob boss in the courtroom saying, you know, your

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Speaker 3: honor your daughter who ha ha, I'm gonna put her

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Speaker 3: name out there for my friends to see. I hope

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Speaker 3: she's okay. Hope nothing happens to your daughter. Judge. Guess

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Speaker 3: what if that was a mob boss or a drug dealer,

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Speaker 3: or frankly a twenty year old black marijuana dealer, that

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Speaker 3: person would be in jail right this minute, write this minute.

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Speaker 3: And the fact that Trump and his people rolled there,

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Speaker 3: so he wasn't doing anything illegal, that's just his first

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Speaker 3: Amendment rights to sick his mob on the judge's family.

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Speaker 3: I am sorry. That is not how this ship works

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Speaker 3: or should, but it does unfortunately right now. Sorry, I'm

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Speaker 3: a little hot about this one.

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Speaker 4: Can you tell no?

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Speaker 1: I agree. I mean yesterday, by the way, one of

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Speaker 1: Trump's sawyers said that it was Trump's first Amendment right

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Speaker 1: to try to overturn the twenty twenty elections. So they're

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Speaker 1: really push in that first Amendment for all it's worth.

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Speaker 1: It's protected political speech, you guys. He can't try that

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Speaker 1: for every criminal count. I mean, that's not a criminal

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Speaker 1: because it's a federal count, I think. But yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean crazy.

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Speaker 3: I'm telling you, if one of these judges does not

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Speaker 3: exercise some discipline on this Trump. Here's the thing Trump

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Speaker 3: has been playing this game with every one of these

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Speaker 3: judges and every one of these prosecutors, Okay, and not

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Speaker 3: one of them has effectively sanctioned him, even in the

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Speaker 3: Egen Carol case. I mean, she's probably got a third

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Speaker 3: defamation case, so you don't have to poke it too

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Speaker 3: hard to see a third defamation case there. But people

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Speaker 3: who let him get away with this stuff and think,

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Speaker 3: I don't want to be the one who pulls the

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Speaker 3: trigger on this. I don't want to be the one

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Speaker 3: who puts Trump in jail for contempt. If you give

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Speaker 3: him a separate track, if you give him a separate

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Speaker 3: set of privileges under the law, you diminish the entire

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Speaker 3: judicial system. Look, he may be an ex president and

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Speaker 3: he may have a powerful mob behind him, but if

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Speaker 3: we don't uphold the law, he will exploit it and

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Speaker 3: he will do things that in the end you will

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Speaker 3: look at this part of the show and go, oh God,

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Speaker 3: that was the easy part. Rick Wilson, Molly Jong Fast,

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Speaker 3: I'm delighted to be with you as always and look

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Speaker 3: forward to seeing you again the same time next week.

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Speaker 2: Shane Goldmacher is a national political correspondent at The New

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Speaker 2: York Times.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Fast Politics.

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Speaker 5: Shane, thank you for having me on.

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Speaker 1: So excited to have you. So let's talk about You've

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Speaker 1: written like a number of really interesting reported pieces about

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Speaker 1: Trump money, from legal bills to the RNC. So where

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Speaker 1: do you want to start? Because it's all super interesting.

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Speaker 5: I mean, I think the most important place to start

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Speaker 5: is that Donald Trump is facing multiple converging financial challenges

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Speaker 5: all at once.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know.

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Speaker 5: You can pick which one you want to talk about.

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Speaker 5: But there is the question of political finances, which is

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Speaker 5: how is he going to finance his campaign for the presidency,

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Speaker 5: and he starts far behind Joe Biden. You have his

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Speaker 5: legal financing, which is how is he going to continue

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Speaker 5: to pay for the lawyers. We just reported this week

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Speaker 5: that he has now spent more than one hundred million

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Speaker 5: dollars on legal and investigation related bills since he left

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Speaker 5: the White House, and the funds he's been using to

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Speaker 5: pay for all those bills are nearly gone. And then

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Speaker 5: the third one, almost the most urgent of the three,

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Speaker 5: is posting a bond to meet the New York civil

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Speaker 5: fraud case, which was reduced this week but is still

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Speaker 5: a massive bond of more than one hundred and seventy

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Speaker 5: million dollars and he only has a short period to

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Speaker 5: do that. And so you have all three of these

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Speaker 5: financial things converging at once, representing just a real challenge

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Speaker 5: on a personal front, on a business front, and on

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Speaker 5: a political front for Donald Trump.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the reason why he's had so much legal success, right,

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Speaker 1: which is for trials, it seems very likely that at

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Speaker 1: least two and maybe three of these cases will for

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Speaker 1: sure not happen until after the election.

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Speaker 5: I mean, we know only one for sure is going

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Speaker 5: to happen before the election exactly.

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Speaker 1: And one of the reasons why that's worked is because

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Speaker 1: he has used really actually good lawyers to delay, delay, delay,

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Speaker 1: and that has turned out to be quite expensive.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, he does have some top notch lawyers,

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Speaker 5: and he has a huge team of lawyers, and there's

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Speaker 5: just some structural advantages that defendants have, right. In general,

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Speaker 5: the criminal system is designed for the defendants to get

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Speaker 5: their say, and he's able to use the fact that

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Speaker 5: there are different jurisdictions that aren't able to coordinate with

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Speaker 5: one another to benefit himself. Right. You can make one

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Speaker 5: argument in a New York case and then use that

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Speaker 5: argument to push for delay in the Georgia case to

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Speaker 5: push for delay in the document's case and that's all

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Speaker 5: sort of within his rights. And yeah, this comes at

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Speaker 5: a real cost again, more than one hundred million dollars

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Speaker 5: for lawyers and legal related investigation call since he left office.

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Speaker 5: And it hasn't been his own money that he spent

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Speaker 5: on that, right.

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Speaker 1: Really, I'm shocked. So where has the money come from?

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Speaker 1: Because you have a really good piece about this hundred

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Speaker 1: million dollars, So explain where it came from and how

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Speaker 1: it got to the lawyers.

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Speaker 5: It's one of the things that people often will ask

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Speaker 5: me questions about, you know, Readers say, well, how is

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Speaker 5: he paying for all of this? And the answer really

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Speaker 5: dates back to twenty twenty, to the last election that

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Speaker 5: he lost, when he said I didn't really lose. Give

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Speaker 5: money to me, support my election defense fund, and Republican

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Speaker 5: donors poured money into his campaign after the twenty twenty

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Speaker 5: election at rates that basically surpassed anything he raised during

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Speaker 5: the race, as he claimed fraud. I have to go

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Speaker 5: look up a number specifically, but if something like one

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Speaker 5: hundred million dollars came in online in the first ten

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Speaker 5: days after the election and between the day after the

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Speaker 5: election and Joe Biden's inauguration, he raised through his various committees,

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Speaker 5: two hundred and fifty four million dollars in online contributions. Now,

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Speaker 5: he spent some of that on reaccounts and lawyer's fighting

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Speaker 5: for various cases, almost all which he lost to try

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Speaker 5: to stop and overturn the twenty twenty election. But that

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Speaker 5: money ended up being a huge pot that he exited

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Speaker 5: office with and he used it in part to finance

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Speaker 5: his political operation. But so much of that money he

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Speaker 5: just sat on and the costs he started to accumulate

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Speaker 5: in twenty twenty one as the House began its investigation

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Speaker 5: into January sixth, and twenty twenty two, as he faced

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Speaker 5: more investigations, including over whether he had taken classified documents,

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Speaker 5: was lawyers and so this account, which basically had something

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Speaker 5: one hundred and five million dollars at the end of

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Speaker 5: twenty twenty one, he's been spending it down on legal

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Speaker 5: stuff ever since. And at this point, that account, it's

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Speaker 5: called Save America, it's his political action committee. That account

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Speaker 5: has less than four million dollars if you included its

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Speaker 5: unpaid bills as of the most recent month. And there's

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Speaker 5: this complicated thing, and we can get into it if

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Speaker 5: you won't want where his super pac has been giving

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Speaker 5: the funds back to it. But even that account is

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Speaker 5: running out of money that it can refund, so you're

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Speaker 5: really looking at his ability to tap other people's money.

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Speaker 5: The short version is his ability to tap other people's

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Speaker 5: money to pay for his lawyers is running out, and

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Speaker 5: he's unlikely to be able to do so as early

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Speaker 5: as this summer, and that's going to be a quandary

435
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:27,639
Speaker 5: for him because he hasn't had to pay for these

436
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,160
Speaker 5: lawyers himself, and he's going to face the question of, well,

437
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 5: how does he pay for them at that point.

438
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:34,520
Speaker 1: It does strike me when you're talking about this a

439
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,400
Speaker 1: little bit earlier on, you mentioned that the sheer volume

440
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,840
Speaker 1: of fundraising he did after the Big lie, and I'm

441
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:45,400
Speaker 1: wondering it does sound from this that one of the

442
00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:50,480
Speaker 1: most successful of Trump's fundraising tactics has been this line

443
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:51,280
Speaker 1: about the election.

444
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,719
Speaker 5: It raised an enormous amount of money at the end

445
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,359
Speaker 5: of twenty twenty, and if you think about it, what

446
00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,920
Speaker 5: it means is that the money he raised while denying

447
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,399
Speaker 5: the twenty twenty election result is paying for his legal

448
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 5: defense in cridinal cases. Around his behavior from denying the

449
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:13,040
Speaker 5: twenty twenty election result in Georgia and in the January

450
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:17,120
Speaker 5: sixth case from the Special Council. And this is how

451
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,560
Speaker 5: he's paid for his attorneyees is from the money given

452
00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,960
Speaker 5: by Republicans who supported him at the time and bought

453
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,359
Speaker 5: into his false claims that there was sufficient voter fraud

454
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:29,080
Speaker 5: to overturn the election.

455
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,920
Speaker 1: The lawyer money is a real big issue. And then

456
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 1: how does this fit in with what's happening at the

457
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:37,720
Speaker 1: RNC right now?

458
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, so you know, he has taken over

459
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,679
Speaker 5: the Republican National Committee in a more fulsome way than

460
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:47,359
Speaker 5: I think his standard. Right, every new nominee kind of

461
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,800
Speaker 5: takes charge of the party. Joe Biden kind of took

462
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:51,880
Speaker 5: charge of the party in twenty twenty when he took

463
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 5: over as the nominee, but you don't usually take over

464
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 5: quite like the Trump team has a He pushed out

465
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 5: Ronal McDaniel and put an new chair that was sort

466
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,359
Speaker 5: of more his person, even though she was once his person.

467
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:06,400
Speaker 5: He also put in his daughter in law, so there's

468
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 5: literally a Trump family member at the table, the decision

469
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,439
Speaker 5: making table as co chair of the Republican National Committee

470
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 5: and his team has gone in imposed mass layoffs inside

471
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,919
Speaker 5: the rn C. Now they have said pretty clearly we

472
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,399
Speaker 5: are not going to take rn C money and use

473
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 5: it to pay for his lawyers.

474
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:27,720
Speaker 1: Right, I mean, first she said she would, and then

475
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 1: she said she wouldn't when she got some pushback Laura Trump. Yes, shockingly,

476
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 1: there's been some flip.

477
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 5: Flop on that there has. His political advisors have been

478
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,159
Speaker 5: pretty consistent, but she absolutees like, well, why wouldn't the

479
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 5: Republican nationally? And look, but what he has done is

480
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,119
Speaker 5: sort of found a way to help raise more money

481
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,239
Speaker 5: for this pack which has funded his lawyers, which is

482
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 5: there's this thing called a joint fund raising agreement, and

483
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 5: Joe Biden has someone with the Democrats and Trump will

484
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,680
Speaker 5: have one now with the Republicans. And what it means

485
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 5: is if you get mega checks from big donors, the

486
00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 5: kind of people are going to give to Joe Biden

487
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 5: doing an event with the two presidents, you know, with

488
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 5: Barack Obama and Bill Clinton, or the ones that Trump

489
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 5: does with these massive dinners. These are like nine hundred

490
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 5: thousand dollars checks, eight hundred thousand dollars checks. There's a

491
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,640
Speaker 5: sort of order of which groups get the money, and

492
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 5: Trump has put his pack, which is paying for his

493
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 5: lawyers second in this sort of waterfall. Who gets the cash.

494
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 5: His campaign is first, then his pack which just has

495
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:25,159
Speaker 5: been paying layers, and then the Republican National Committee. And

496
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,640
Speaker 5: so what that means is every major donor who gives

497
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 5: to these events in the coming months is funding five

498
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,840
Speaker 5: thousand dollars per person his account that pays for his attorneys.

499
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 5: And if you're giving an eight hundred thousand dollars check,

500
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,439
Speaker 5: it's a small fraction of it doesn't probably register, right,

501
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 5: But if you're giving a twenty five thousand dollars check

502
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 5: or fifty thousand dollars check, you're giving twenty percent ten

503
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 5: percent of your donation is going to the fund that

504
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 5: is paying for Trump flayers. And it's another way he

505
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 5: may try to inject some money and not directly taking

506
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,399
Speaker 5: from the RNC, but he's putting his pack ahead of

507
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,879
Speaker 5: the party itself in terms of some of other fundraising proceeds.

508
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, some of this stuff with the RNC, they had

509
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,680
Speaker 1: sort of more on the ground stuff. And isn't it

510
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,119
Speaker 1: right that they laid off like a huge number of

511
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 1: employees and now are interviewing them to rehire them and

512
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:17,719
Speaker 1: have sort of litanus tests of whether or not they

513
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 1: believed the big life.

514
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, so when they came in on Friday, the new

515
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 5: party chairman was selected on a recent Friday, and on Monday,

516
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,359
Speaker 5: the Trump team arrived at the RNC headquarters in Washington.

517
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 1: D C.

518
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,679
Speaker 5: And they arrived with mass layoffs. They sent messages and

519
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 5: emails and meetings to around sixty more than sixty people.

520
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 5: And at the time I was told about the total

521
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 5: pay roll was about two hundred, so you talking about

522
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:42,920
Speaker 5: a third of the r and C was told either

523
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 5: you have lost your job or you have to apply

524
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:47,680
Speaker 5: for your job, and your job only lasts at the

525
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 5: end of March, and you know, you have to re

526
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 5: justify your existence for us. And you know the Washington Post,

527
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 5: you know, broke a good story in which they said

528
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 5: that among the questions people are getting as they reapply

529
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,880
Speaker 5: for their jobs, other people are applying for the jobs,

530
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,640
Speaker 5: as do you believe the twenty twenty election was stolen

531
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 5: or rightfully decided? And yeah, that's a pretty loaded question, right,

532
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 5: I mean, this is something that Trump has said repeatedly

533
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 5: without evidence, that the election was stolen. And you know

534
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 5: a lot of people around him have urged him to

535
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,119
Speaker 5: stop talking about that this is not a winning political issue,

536
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 5: but you know, he has continued to talk about it.

537
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 5: And the idea that people who want to get hired

538
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,120
Speaker 5: inside the party have to sort of tow that line

539
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 5: is a pretty remarkable statement four years later.

540
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 1: Yeah. Man, it just is such a crazy place to

541
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 1: be in American democracy right now. So can we talk

542
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:44,160
Speaker 1: a little bit about a sort of this idea that

543
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:48,879
Speaker 1: Trump is going after Biden's biggest advantage and what that

544
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 1: is and a little bit about that.

545
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:52,879
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, so, look, if you look at a

546
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,160
Speaker 5: lot of the polls, at the snapshot at the start

547
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 5: of the general election, Joe Biden is behind. And he's

548
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,679
Speaker 5: not just behind in the polls, but he's trailing Trump

549
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,120
Speaker 5: on some of the most salient issues. If you take abortion,

550
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:07,879
Speaker 5: which has obviously been a powerful issue for Democrats off

551
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 5: the table for a moment, and you look at the economy,

552
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,640
Speaker 5: you look at immigration, you look at job approval on

553
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 5: some of the most important issues, Donald Trump is in Poland,

554
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,640
Speaker 5: and so, well, what does Joe Biden have going for him? Well,

555
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 5: it turns out, in terms of the mechanics and the

556
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 5: money and the infrastructure of running for a president. Joe

557
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 5: Biden is really remarkably ahead of Donald Trump. Now, everyone

558
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 5: who holds the White House typically has a little bit

559
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,640
Speaker 5: of an advantage on these fronts, but they're pretty big here.

560
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 5: Financially between the party and the candidates. It's like one

561
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 5: hundred million dollar gap at the beginning of this race,

562
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 5: and that gap is only expected to grow because Democrats

563
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 5: have been out raising Republicans in recent years. So the

564
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 5: money gap is really substantial. And it's sort of like

565
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 5: nuts and bolts and infrastructure. Where those R and C

566
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 5: layoffs comes in is Joe Biden is opening like a

567
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 5: hundred field offices in the states.

568
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 3: You know.

569
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 5: The data point that struck me recently was that he

570
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 5: was in Wisconsin order to open up forty four offices

571
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 5: across that state.

572
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 1: Isn't that like the whole state?

573
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 5: That's basically the whole stair, right, And Trump didn't have

574
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 5: a single person devoted to Wisconsin yet now he will

575
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 5: have people devoted to Wisconsin. But that's an important head start, right.

576
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 5: These are states that were decided by like ten thousand votes,

577
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 5: and you do the math on like, okay, well, how

578
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 5: many votes can like an office win Like the person

579
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 5: like working at that office. Well, they got you know,

580
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 5: a couple hundred days, can they flip fifty one hundred

581
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 5: people get them out to vote? That's that adds up

582
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 5: Like that, that helps close the potential gap or expand

583
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 5: the gap of the election. And so in a race

584
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 5: that most people, the smartest people in both campaigns think

585
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 5: will likely be closed, these are the kinds of things

586
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 5: that can end up mattering. And the Biden people say, look,

587
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 5: you know, yes, they don't disagree that they have some

588
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 5: disadvantages on polling on some of these key issues. They

589
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 5: think that can change in the coming ones, but that

590
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 5: this infrastructure advantage won't necessarily change that they will stay

591
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 5: ahead of the Trump team in terms of those edges.

592
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 1: One of the things I was struck by was that

593
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 1: I read reporting that said that the RNC had these

594
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 1: Latino outreach centers which they actually closed.

595
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 5: It sounds like there was conversations about doing that in

596
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 5: those first days where they were implementing these mass labs.

597
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 5: They've since said they're not in fact closing these community ors,

598
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 5: but there had been plans under Ronald McDaniel to expand

599
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 5: the number of them. Look, a lot of this is

600
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 5: up in the air right, like they are trying to

601
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 5: triage what to spend their money on and what to

602
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 5: prioritize and what Donald Trump wants to prioritize. And when

603
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 5: Trump talks about the Republican National Committee, you know, the

604
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 5: person he selected as chairman was the former chair of

605
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 5: the North Carolina Republican Party. And what was drawing him

606
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 5: to him was the idea of you know, what they

607
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 5: call election integrity, and that they would focus on, you know,

608
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 5: stopping the steal and election frau and you know, putting

609
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 5: lawyers in all of these places. And that's what Trump

610
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 5: has really been focused on, wanting the party to do

611
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 5: more than opening field offices and minority outreach. Like he

612
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 5: thinks of the already as an instrument to do that,

613
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 5: and so not everyone at the party thinks that. And

614
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 5: so what will happen in the coming looks this is

615
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 5: gonna be really interesting. What does the R ANDC prioritize?

616
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 5: Do they do exactly what Trump thinks personally he wants

617
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 5: to do, or do what some of the political professionals

618
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 5: around him would like the party to do.

619
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 1: One of the things I was struck by was the

620
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 1: reason that Trump was able to kick out Ronna Romney

621
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: mcdanields was because she had this anemic fundraising right like dad,

622
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 1: and very little cash on hand or a credit line, right.

623
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 1: And I'm curious how he thinks that this team will

624
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 1: be better at fundraising.

625
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, by basically any measure, twenty twenty three

626
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 5: was a bad year for the Republican National Committee in

627
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 5: terms of its fundraising and the numbers during the election year.

628
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 5: We're bad, you know, in conservative circles. You know, there

629
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 5: was real pressure on her because of what that looked like,

630
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 5: and it ticked up a little bit at the beginning

631
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 5: of the year. But the issue is really a the

632
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 5: RNC in twenty twenty three wasn't able to advertise itself

633
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 5: as helping Trump, and its fundraising list, at least its

634
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 5: online fundraising list, was built around the Trump presidency and

635
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,479
Speaker 5: so all of their supporters were wanting to swarre Trump,

636
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 5: and then they were not asked about Donald Trump in

637
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 5: twenty twenty three because the party stopped sending messages because

638
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 5: he was in a competitive primary. So they're able to

639
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 5: start sending messages about Trump now, and I would expect

640
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 5: that that list, which again was built during the Trump

641
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 5: presidency will begin netting more donations, and in fact it

642
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 5: did right when Laura Trump became the co chair. That

643
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 5: was their best weekend of fundraising, they said since twenty twenty.

644
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 5: But the issue is a little bit broader, which is

645
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 5: just like the Republican landscape for online fundraising has stunk

646
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 5: in the last couple of years, and the Democratic landscape

647
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 5: has has shrunk. Like there's been reduced enthusiasm compared to

648
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 5: the sort of the heydays of twenty twenty, but nowhere

649
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 5: near as much of a slowdown as Republicans civics sperience,

650
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 5: and really across the party there's deep concern about what

651
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 5: is going to happen with their online donor base and

652
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 5: if they are just happed out or frustrated or disengaged.

653
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 5: Even as there's a lot of polls showing Republican support

654
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 5: and enthusiasm for Trump, and certainly he locked up the

655
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 5: nomination fairly quickly, whether the people who have given money

656
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 5: online will continue to give or will ever give back

657
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 5: at the pace that they did in twenty twenty is

658
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 5: an open question and a real concern across the party.

659
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, because one of the things I saw in the

660
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 1: Financial Times was that he had sort of like two

661
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: hundred thousand lass unique donor small dollar donors.

662
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 5: I don't think I saw that story, but I've seen

663
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 5: some comparisons that he raised less than twenty twenty three

664
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 5: than twenty nineteen, and candidly like, I'm not that surprised

665
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 5: by that. Right, he was the president then, he was

666
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 5: attitive primary now. But look, I mean, at this point,

667
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 5: the more important comparison isn't how does Trump do now

668
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 5: to how did Trump do four years ago? It's how

669
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 5: is he going to do compared to Joe Biden? And

670
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 5: Biden campaign announced they raised million dollars around the State

671
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 5: of the Union in a twenty four hour period, and

672
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 5: that's about what Donald Trump raised online, give or take

673
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 5: in the month of February. You're going to likely see

674
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,839
Speaker 5: this edge for the Democrats to expand it. Look, money

675
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,360
Speaker 5: doesn't matter in presidential politics quite the same way it

676
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 5: does in like a house race, right where the voters

677
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 5: don't know who the two candidates are and they only

678
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:23,800
Speaker 5: see the television ads. People know who Donald Trump and

679
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,320
Speaker 5: Joe Biden are. But when you talk about that infrastructure

680
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 5: in offices and specific outreach to specific communities, if you

681
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 5: have more money, you can expand the map you can

682
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 5: decide to. If you're the Democrats and you saw that,

683
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 5: you know the president went there, you know you can

684
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 5: decide that North Carolina, where you lost, is somewhere you

685
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,360
Speaker 5: want to investor early on. And if you're Trump, right like,

686
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:46,919
Speaker 5: you're not going to run any advertising yet. In fact,

687
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 5: they aren't running any advertisements. So there's a real early

688
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 5: structural advance the Democrats have at this point, Shane, so interesting.

689
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 5: Thank you so much for joining us, Thanks for having.

690
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 2: Ornelle Belcher is the president of Great Corners and a

691
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 2: NBC MSNBC political analyst.

692
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Vast Politics, Cornell.

693
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 4: Thanks for having me back. Is always a pleasure.

694
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 1: I'm so happy to have you, and I wanted to

695
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 1: talk to you about the topic that I don't know

696
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:18,279
Speaker 1: if it's that we're not talking about it or we're

697
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 1: not talking about it right. But let's talk about voters,

698
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 1: and let's focus in on black voters, but also on

699
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 1: the different voters and what you're seeing, because I think

700
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:31,880
Speaker 1: of you as really, really smart.

701
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 4: I appreciate that. Thank you.

702
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 1: So what are you seeing?

703
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,880
Speaker 4: Well? We should first start by telling our listeners stop

704
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 4: paying attention to all the pollard And one of the

705
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:43,880
Speaker 4: things I think you and I have talked about this

706
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 4: a little bit on the side. One of the things

707
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,319
Speaker 4: that has origen over the last couple of cycles that

708
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 4: there was not true you know, a decade or more ago, right,

709
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 4: certainly wasn't true in OA and twelve is how people

710
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:01,760
Speaker 4: are now using polls to drive a political narrative, whatever

711
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,840
Speaker 4: political that they want. So there's too much polling.

712
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,280
Speaker 1: This is polls as disinformation.

713
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,799
Speaker 4: Really they are. They're polls for spin. And then you

714
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 4: see it. I mean, look, and even it is even

715
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 4: at the national level, even at the even at the

716
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 4: campaigns or Senate level, even the congressional level. And I'm

717
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,239
Speaker 4: guilty of it as well. It's like they'll that will

718
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,759
Speaker 4: put out polls that basically make our candidate a good

719
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 4: investment and say that you should invest in our our

720
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 4: our and our candidate. It's not what polling was creating for.

721
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:34,319
Speaker 4: It is not its intent. And often we're looking for

722
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 4: polls to be crystal balls and tell us what the

723
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 4: future is. And I'm sorry, people, but that's not a

724
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:44,240
Speaker 4: job of polls, and folks can't do that. Poles are instructive,

725
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 4: they're not predictive. From a campaign standpoint, what we're looking

726
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:51,879
Speaker 4: for in a poll is to instruct us on how

727
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 4: to target and how to find the messaging that resonates

728
00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 4: both from a positive and a negative side, and how

729
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 4: to target and move that right. It is not something

730
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 4: where we use to say, oh, this is where the

731
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 4: public canceled, this is what the future is going to be.

732
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 4: And I think there's too much of that. And from

733
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 4: the media standpoint, Look, you and I are in the

734
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:15,400
Speaker 4: media a lot, so we'll beat up on it every

735
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 4: time we get questions and we spend five or ten

736
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 4: minutes talking about a poll. I think it's a disservice

737
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:23,240
Speaker 4: to the voters.

738
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 3: I do it.

739
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 4: I'm a poster. It's to the voters because what we're

740
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 4: doing is we're sensationalizing politics around a horse race in

741
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 4: a way that's entertainment. Whether New York Times poll or

742
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 4: Fox poll and is Biden down five or tied or

743
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 4: what have you. It is becoming a conversation about where

744
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 4: someone is in a horse race, which, by the way,

745
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 4: is probably right or wrong depending on what universe they

746
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 4: have that they're polling, and which is the art more

747
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:53,799
Speaker 4: in the science, but as opposed to having a five

748
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 4: or ten minute conversation about where the candidates are in

749
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,320
Speaker 4: a poll. How about having five or ten minute conversation

750
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 4: about where the editors are on issues that actually matter

751
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 4: to voters so we can help voters make an informed decision,

752
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 4: because we don't do that enough.

753
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:07,919
Speaker 2: Right.

754
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 4: Where is Donald Trump on debt? Forgiveness? Right? So many parents? Look,

755
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:15,480
Speaker 4: and I'm in Ohio today, you know so many working

756
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:19,959
Speaker 4: class parents and students. You know they struggle with upper

757
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 4: mobility because of large sums of debt. Where's Donald Trump

758
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:26,320
Speaker 4: on debt? I know where Biden is on debt? Where's

759
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,320
Speaker 4: Donald Trump on debt? How about a real conversation about

760
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 4: where the candidates are? Look, I'm not been being artists

761
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 4: in here, but a real conversation that lays out where

762
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,920
Speaker 4: the candidates are on issues that help these working Americans

763
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 4: make an informed decision.

764
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to talk to you for another minute

765
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:46,279
Speaker 1: about this idea because I think so much about in

766
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:48,919
Speaker 1: the twenty twenty two cycle when you had all.

767
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 4: The red star where we had the red waves, this

768
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:51,800
Speaker 4: red tsunami.

769
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 1: Well, I was thinking about actually Mandela Barnes in Wisconsin,

770
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 1: because that was a candidate where he pulled really badly.

771
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 1: He lost the Democratic machine, the money, and he lost

772
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 1: by one point, which means that had there not been polls,

773
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:10,400
Speaker 1: he would have probably kept getting Democratic money and would

774
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:12,880
Speaker 1: and we would not have Ron Johnson in the Senate today,

775
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 1: which would have been humongous for American sanity, would have

776
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 1: been humongous for right. And it would also be another

777
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 1: black senator. We have very few black senators, like an

778
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 1: embarrassment considering the makeup of this country. And so in

779
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:31,360
Speaker 1: my mind, I think so much about that candidate because

780
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 1: everyone kept saying to me, you know, he's just a

781
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 1: bad candidate, he's not right for Wisconsin. Keeping the lieutenant governor,

782
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,760
Speaker 1: I thought it was great. It's this idea that polls

783
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 1: as you know, that they can sort of shape a

784
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 1: campaign in a really insane way.

785
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, they're being misused and that's my whole point, and

786
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 4: we should push back and stop it. And whether the

787
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 4: side you are, stop coming at us with poles and

788
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 4: drive narratives, come at us with where a candidate is

789
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 4: on the issues, right, especially on the media standpoint, isn't

790
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 4: it the job and that's in the media to give

791
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:06,759
Speaker 4: to help make voters, help give voters the information they

792
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:09,520
Speaker 4: need to make informed decisions. I would think that that's

793
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 4: part of the job of us in the media, and instead,

794
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 4: you know, well, every day will spend you know, several

795
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 4: minutes across the cable channel, actually hours talking about where

796
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 4: candidate is in the poll, as opposed to where they

797
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 4: are on voting rights or where they are on K

798
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:29,280
Speaker 4: through twelve education.

799
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 1: This is a moment where we have a lot of like,

800
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 1: really important issues. We got the Supreme Court having these

801
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 1: insane oral arguments about methapriss down and someone who listened

802
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 1: to them. You know, Republicans are telling us what they

803
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 1: want to do, and they involve you know, the eighteenth

804
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 1: century Comstock Act to make it illegal to send things

805
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 1: in the mail. I mean, how much do you think

806
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 1: issues are driving voters? And what do you think that

807
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 1: looks like?

808
00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 4: You know, there's never one silver bullet, And I think

809
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 4: too often we oversimplify, you know, the most famous political

810
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 4: saying and the world, at least in American politics, has

811
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 4: probably done a lot of a lot more harm than good. Right,

812
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,360
Speaker 4: it's the economy stupid because it makes it seem like

813
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 4: Americans are one dimension and just awfully transaction and it's

814
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 4: never just the economy. It is, there's always multiple variables

815
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 4: at play and the decision making of voters. They're seldom

816
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,959
Speaker 4: a silver bullet, so it is usually a combination of Yes,

817
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 4: both pocketbook issues, but also, look, we act like culture

818
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 4: is not a real important front and central space where

819
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:42,839
Speaker 4: voters make decisions about who they like and who they

820
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:44,840
Speaker 4: don't like, and who's fighting for them. One of the

821
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:47,280
Speaker 4: things and that people know me for working for Obama,

822
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:48,879
Speaker 4: but for our for Obama, I work for our.

823
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:51,840
Speaker 1: D Yeah, frequent guest on this podcast, by the.

824
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:54,840
Speaker 4: Way, who was fantastic and does not get enough credit

825
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 4: for the building of the Democratic Party that we did

826
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 4: under this they say strategy things that Kairman Dean said

827
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 4: that always stuck with me when we'd be in spaces

828
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 4: where progressives would be arguing that, look, working class voter,

829
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 4: particularly working class white voters, are voting against their economic

830
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 4: interests because look, Democrats are well aligned with the economic

831
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 4: issues of working class voters, but working class white voters

832
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,879
Speaker 4: continually break against Democrats, and so they would argue that

833
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,400
Speaker 4: they're voting against their economic interest And one of the

834
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 4: things that I thought was just brilliant always stuck with

835
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 4: me that Governor Dean said was no, they're voting for

836
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 4: their higher interest And it's not that they're voting against

837
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,360
Speaker 4: their economic interests, but they have higher interests. And I

838
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 4: from a data standpoint, and you're seeing that really with

839
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 4: Donald Trump. Donald Trump is really brought this home. You

840
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 4: cannot disconnect someone's tribal identity from their economic understanding and

841
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 4: their economic concerns and their positioning. You just can't write.

842
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:56,359
Speaker 4: And this echoed in the conversations that you here. When

843
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,360
Speaker 4: Donald Trump stood before audiences in twenty sixteen, he said,

844
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 4: I'm going to give you back your country. That was

845
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 4: both an economic and a cultural and a tribal and

846
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:12,200
Speaker 4: a status conversation right to a group of people who

847
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:15,239
Speaker 4: and look I heard we started hearing the take we

848
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 4: need to take back our country calls shortly after Barack

849
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 4: Obama got elected and certainly going into twenty ten with

850
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:23,359
Speaker 4: the rise of the Tea Party, which again they said

851
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 4: was about economic anks. In this bullshit, economic anks is

852
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:29,239
Speaker 4: a part of it, but it's connected to status. And

853
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:31,360
Speaker 4: so when Donald Trump stood up and said, you know,

854
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:33,319
Speaker 4: I'm going to give you back your country, and when

855
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,200
Speaker 4: he's stayed in front of his audiences, right now talking

856
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 4: about you know, immigrants and brown people poisoning the blood

857
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 4: of America. He is having a conversation about tribalism and

858
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 4: about status, and we think that it's simply about oh,

859
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 4: a pocketbook transaction. Well, I'm going to give you a

860
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:57,400
Speaker 4: higher minimum way, and so therefore you should vote for me,

861
00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 4: because that's more important than you were. His historic status,

862
00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 4: as you see it, in a racial zero sum game.

863
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:06,840
Speaker 4: They're playing chess ins like progressives are playing checkers.

864
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 1: Right, this was just this anti multi racial democracy I

865
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:15,840
Speaker 1: think of like that Susan Faludi Backlash book, like you

866
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:18,880
Speaker 1: come forward a little bit and then you know, I

867
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,319
Speaker 1: mean Donald Trump was willing to lie to people in

868
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 1: a way that no politician had ever been willing to

869
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:25,879
Speaker 1: you know. He said like, I'm going to bring back

870
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 1: your coal jobs.

871
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 4: But why did they fall for all this? This was

872
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 4: the predicate of my book that I wrote in Going

873
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 4: to twenty sixteen about after looking at data over the

874
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 4: years about the rise of racial version. Donald Trump is

875
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:39,720
Speaker 4: not a figure we have not seen in American history before.

876
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 4: And I'll argue that quite rightly, he's a lesser political

877
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 4: version of Pat Buchanan. But in the past, those candidates

878
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 4: did not get the runway or the momentum that they did.

879
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 4: Look all the things that Donald Trump sort of leads into,

880
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:57,279
Speaker 4: Pat Pukennon lead into those earlier, and he couldn't win

881
00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:01,760
Speaker 4: the Republican nomination. It's different after Barack Obama gets elected

882
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 4: all of a sudden, and let's understand what Barack Obama's

883
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 4: election means. It means, for the first time in America

884
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 4: and our history, you had the vast majority of white

885
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:13,319
Speaker 4: voters break one way. And because people look at Barack

886
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 4: Obama as its hate some sort of post racial breakthrough,

887
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 4: the truth of the matter is it wasn't a post

888
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 4: racial warder because if you look at the percentage of

889
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 4: the white vote nationally that Barack Obama got, and look

890
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:25,400
Speaker 4: at while winning, and look at the percentage of the

891
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:28,440
Speaker 4: white vote that John Carry got while losing, there's no

892
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 4: difference in between that number. What the difference is that

893
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:34,480
Speaker 4: is with John Kerry losing and Barack Obama winning is

894
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:36,880
Speaker 4: probably a little bit over ten million more people of color,

895
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:39,719
Speaker 4: brown people showing up and voting. And let's understand and

896
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 4: are re electing in twenty twelve, on his way to

897
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:46,879
Speaker 4: winning his back to back majorities. Barack Obama garnered less

898
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 4: than forty percent of the white vote, right, so this

899
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 4: is what's happening. So this is the wolf at the door.

900
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:54,880
Speaker 4: There's no longer at the door, but it's in the

901
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:57,400
Speaker 4: living room, and all of a sudden is we are

902
00:45:57,480 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 4: losing our country. And look, as a social scientist, you know,

903
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 4: you don't beat up on people who have eggs. You

904
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:06,799
Speaker 4: had to try to understand that eggs. And I recognized

905
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 4: that in two thousand and eight that there was a

906
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 4: large swath of voters who were really anxious and concerned

907
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 4: about the changes that were happening in America and the

908
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,879
Speaker 4: idea that they're losing out because of others and others

909
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 4: are gaining at their expense, right, which is something that

910
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:26,279
Speaker 4: is old as human nature, but it's real. And what

911
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:28,800
Speaker 4: I argue is we have to speak to that. Now

912
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:32,799
Speaker 4: Trump is speaking to that in grievance politics. We've got

913
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 4: to speak to that in a different way, or we're

914
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 4: good areas country apart.

915
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:40,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, but don't you think that Biden has done well

916
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:43,880
Speaker 1: being able to sort of relate to those voters in

917
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:48,279
Speaker 1: a way that is not racist and is also addresses

918
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:54,360
Speaker 1: them in a not patronizing but also sort of realistic way.

919
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 4: Well, let's go to the faction and look more manufacturing

920
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 4: jobs coming back to this country and being in this

921
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 4: country then we've seen in a long long time. And

922
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:07,200
Speaker 4: people thought manufacturer was dead. And part of the issue

923
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 4: with the gutting out of some of the working class

924
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:14,959
Speaker 4: vote was about the loss of these jobs, like manufacturing

925
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:16,840
Speaker 4: jobs that were going overseas with.

926
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:20,839
Speaker 1: Chips and stuff like that. You're bringing those manufacturing jobs back.

927
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 4: You bring those manufacturing jobs back and focused on it,

928
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:26,120
Speaker 4: by the way, in a real way, not that Donald

929
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 4: Trump did, but but that Biden actually did bringing back

930
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:32,239
Speaker 4: manufactured jobs. This was a policy that he focused on

931
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 4: and they're actually doing. Is Biden doing better? Amonge working

932
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 4: glass white voters now that he was now?

933
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:41,920
Speaker 1: Because why? Because he can't transmit that to them because

934
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:45,360
Speaker 1: of the siloed media ecosystem, or is there something else?

935
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 4: It goes back to the point, it's not just the economy, stupid,

936
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:51,439
Speaker 4: It's not just a pocketbook transaction. Voters are a lot

937
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 4: more complicated than that. And if voters fear that their

938
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 4: group is losing, how can they not feel also that

939
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 4: they're losing. So you have to start addressing Look, you've

940
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:05,399
Speaker 4: got to do the policy stuff right, and again, if

941
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:07,800
Speaker 4: you look at what he's done for a policy standpoint,

942
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:09,920
Speaker 4: and let's even go further and talk about within the

943
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:12,719
Speaker 4: infrastructure bill. You know as well as I do, that's

944
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:17,279
Speaker 4: going to be brick and mortar and highway construction. Those

945
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:20,319
Speaker 4: are again working class jobs. Those are not white collar

946
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 4: jobs that are being created by the infrastructure. Again, the

947
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:27,800
Speaker 4: jobs that most impacted pocketbooks and economics are working class

948
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:30,640
Speaker 4: white people. So if they were just simply making an

949
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 4: economic decision, if it was simply an economic pocketbook decision,

950
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:37,400
Speaker 4: it would be hard to beat Biden.

951
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 1: Right, But that's not what this is.

952
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:42,240
Speaker 4: But that's not what it is. At some point, again,

953
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,239
Speaker 4: you've got to be able to address add on this

954
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:50,680
Speaker 4: divisive conversation about losing America and somehow we've got to

955
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:55,919
Speaker 4: break the tribal fever that Donald Trump and Republicans are

956
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 4: leaning into and flaming.

957
00:48:57,760 --> 00:48:59,760
Speaker 1: Do you have a quick song for that that takes

958
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 1: like forty seconds?

959
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:06,399
Speaker 4: Oh? Hell, if I had that, I would be Oh,

960
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:08,360
Speaker 4: I should just we should just saw that saw the

961
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:13,160
Speaker 4: American Originals then in forty sage. No, I didn't, but

962
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:15,359
Speaker 4: I think it's somewhere in this space. I think it's

963
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:18,879
Speaker 4: in this space. It is the enemy. Can't be other Americans,

964
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:22,880
Speaker 4: or we lose the future while we're fighting and dividing

965
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:27,319
Speaker 4: amongst each other being divisive here overseas. That there they are,

966
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:30,480
Speaker 4: they're they're they're they're winning the competition for the future. Right,

967
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:34,280
Speaker 4: Can we and this sounds terrible, but can we divert

968
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:39,240
Speaker 4: tribalism away from other fellow Americans and put it somewhere

969
00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:42,560
Speaker 4: else where? Then we can rally all Americans to meet

970
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:45,319
Speaker 4: the future and for America to win. There may be

971
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:46,040
Speaker 4: some there there.

972
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, Cornell, thank you so much for joining us.

973
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:51,759
Speaker 4: Always a pleasure. Thanks for having.

974
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 3: No moment?

975
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:57,840
Speaker 1: What is our moment of fuckery?

976
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:01,879
Speaker 3: My moment of fuckery? Is? This? Un believable flock of assholes?

977
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:04,760
Speaker 3: Is a lesser known eighties knockoff banded flock of seagulls

978
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 3: of who The Minute, a ship that lost control crashed

979
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:13,279
Speaker 3: into the Francis Scott Keybridge in Baltimore. The Minute, while

980
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 3: bodies were still being pulled from the water, decided to

981
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:19,440
Speaker 3: blame it on DEI. Why Yes, the DEI Mayor and

982
00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 3: the DEI Port director and the DEI Okay, stop it.

983
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:26,760
Speaker 3: What these people are saying. Whenever you hear DEI or CRT,

984
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 3: you should just understand that that is maga for the inWORD.

985
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:31,799
Speaker 3: That is what they're trying to say. That's what they

986
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 3: want to say. I just think about that again, like

987
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 3: put that word in your head because that's what they're saying. Unbelievable.

988
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 3: And look, there was a period of time in America

989
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 3: where where during moments of national tragedy there was at

990
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 3: least a nod in a wink to bipartisanship. These people

991
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 3: can't even bring themselves with that because they want to

992
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:49,440
Speaker 3: say the in.

993
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 1: Word, right, Well, they're just racist assholes.

994
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:54,400
Speaker 3: Well there is that. You know.

995
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 1: My moment of rockery is My moment of vrockery is

996
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:01,080
Speaker 1: carried Lake pretending to be normal. This week we saw

997
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:04,680
Speaker 1: a number of profiles of Carrie Lake. Carrie Lake has

998
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 1: decided that she actually occupies a purple state. This is

999
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:10,960
Speaker 1: the first time ever, right, and she's like, perhaps I

1000
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:15,319
Speaker 1: shouldn't continue this thing that I'm governor of Arizona. Because

1001
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:18,800
Speaker 1: you'll remember when she lost the governorship to Katie Hobbs,

1002
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:22,239
Speaker 1: she was like, no, no, I'm governor. She was like, no,

1003
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 1: I'm the rightful governor. So it's like somebody has clearly

1004
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:27,960
Speaker 1: she's raised up money, so somebody has said to her,

1005
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:31,279
Speaker 1: maybe you should just try to win those votes as

1006
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 1: opposed to being insane. Now she's trying to look less

1007
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:35,840
Speaker 1: in saying.

1008
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:39,799
Speaker 3: It's not gonna work. There's no filter for sanity that

1009
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 3: Carrie Lake can put up.

1010
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:46,240
Speaker 1: She should try, right, she is my moment of fuckery.

1011
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:50,600
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

1012
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:53,880
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to hear the best minds

1013
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:57,120
Speaker 1: in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you

1014
00:51:57,239 --> 00:51:59,920
Speaker 1: enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend

1015
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:03,520
Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.