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Speaker 1: Also media, Hi, Mimo, moo ed zitron. This is better offline.

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Speaker 1: We're in iHeart Radio studio in beautiful New York City today.

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Speaker 1: I am joined by a man who in twenty fourteen

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Speaker 1: roast to fame after becoming AOL's digital profit. He joins

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Speaker 1: me in the studio today, David Shing, best known as Shingy. David, Hey, ed,

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Speaker 1: how are you, mate, sing? I am fantastic an intro.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, this is the most normal show in tech.

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Speaker 1: What are you up to these days? Shingy?

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Speaker 2: Great question. There's three things. I'm primarily up to them. Okay,

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Speaker 2: I'm out speaking and educating, that's right, what I'm known for.

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Speaker 2: I also have a creative house, nice that started around

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Speaker 2: pandemic time.

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Speaker 1: What's the creative house too?

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Speaker 2: It does everything from iconography all the way through the strategy,

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Speaker 2: so all the way through psychography. You happened to be

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Speaker 2: wearing a brand Onion T shirt. Yeah, somebody designed that, dude.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so a design thing cool.

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Speaker 2: And then the other flip side is an advisory practice.

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Speaker 2: That's cool, and it's institutional advisory as well as small startups,

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Speaker 2: which has really been research for me, which has been amazing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, as a fellow consultant with the podcast. It's always

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Speaker 1: good to meet another one. So you it's been a

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Speaker 1: while since you rose to fame. What kind of happened?

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Speaker 1: What kind of happened? Because you I remember I was

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Speaker 1: in the Bay Area at the time when I saw

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Speaker 1: you you arise on MSNBC, and then just went and

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Speaker 1: did other things. I had to go and make some

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Speaker 1: mistakes in my life. I guess what was it you

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Speaker 1: did today?

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Speaker 2: Well, so I ran thirteen countries for them. I ran

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Speaker 2: the media in marketing for them right throughout Europe.

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Speaker 1: But what did that actually entail?

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Speaker 2: I ran thirteen countries with multi millions?

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Speaker 1: But what did you do each day?

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Speaker 2: Because I launched I launched a series of websites, and

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Speaker 2: I launched a series of ad platforms, and I helped

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Speaker 2: change the iconography for AOL. And when you build a

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Speaker 2: new brand and you don't have any budget to support it, right,

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Speaker 2: you have to think about a way to be in

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Speaker 2: the marketplace.

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Speaker 1: So I created a PERSONA wait, did you not have

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Speaker 1: like much budget?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we did, but not in Europe. No, not in Europe.

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Speaker 2: No, Because what happened in a big company, you could

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Speaker 2: probably appreciate this if one division performs poorly, everyone suffers, right,

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Speaker 2: So if you're not close to the sun, you're not

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Speaker 2: going to get all the budget.

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Speaker 1: It's just how it works. It's funny because your whole thing,

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Speaker 1: and I don't say this is an ensult, got kind

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Speaker 1: of flattenedto that one picture of you with the kind

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Speaker 1: of yeah because and then there was that Guardian interview.

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Speaker 1: It's like you drew a zebra. It said you showed

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Speaker 1: someone AOL a picture of a zebra zebra pant pants.

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Speaker 1: Possibly it's just I was wearing them. You're wearing a

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Speaker 1: nice right. Yeah. It's it's funny because you've become somewhat

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Speaker 1: of like a like a I want to say, like

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Speaker 1: a character within meme, a meme. I think memes fair,

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Speaker 1: but it's more.

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Speaker 2: Than character's probably a little underrated.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just because you have a real job, it seems,

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Speaker 1: and you have this whole time, despite the fact that

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Speaker 1: I've been told, like, oh, this guy just like shows

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Speaker 1: up and says he's the digital profit and I was

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Speaker 1: genuinely curious about like, I.

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Speaker 2: Never really told anybody the mystery. I want to hear

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Speaker 2: that and the magic of it still replicates today. So

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Speaker 2: I would go in and get interviews, get audiences with

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Speaker 2: brands we could never be in front.

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Speaker 1: Of like what like what brand? Like? Yeah, what kind

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Speaker 1: of brands? Nike? Nike? Why couldn't al get in front

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Speaker 1: of them?

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Speaker 2: Well, they could, but they're going to just sell ads.

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to sell innovation on top of the ads,

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Speaker 2: so much bigger than we would ever be able to do.

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Speaker 1: And what would that innovation manifest? That's what were you

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Speaker 1: selling to Nike? For example? I know this is just

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Speaker 1: an example.

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Speaker 2: We invented an ad called Devil, which was like this

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Speaker 2: incredible new magazine esque style ad takeover right, that the

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Speaker 2: IAB ended up picking up and running with. So we

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Speaker 2: were just building things that were radically different than spots

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Speaker 2: and dots that sales teams are selling.

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Speaker 1: Right, So how do you feel about AI? How are

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Speaker 1: you feeling about all this? Because look, you were part

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Speaker 1: of a hype cycle. So end of twenty fourteen is

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Speaker 1: like it was like a very hype driven time. It's

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Speaker 1: like the sexiest time in indiego Go and Kickstarter land.

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Speaker 1: I would say, back then, what do you think of AI?

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Speaker 1: How do you feel about it? Do you think it's

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Speaker 1: a bubble? No?

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Speaker 2: No, Well, it's also been around for forty fifty.

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Speaker 1: Years, right, so generative AI specifically.

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Speaker 2: What do I think about that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Sure, think it's magical. Really Yeah, it hallucinates occasionally, but

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Speaker 2: I think it's great because if I can extend a

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Speaker 2: background without having to go reshoot it, that's pretty good

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Speaker 2: and I'm able to change it out.

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Speaker 1: Can't do that though.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're not been you know, haven't checked out fire

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Speaker 2: Fly or.

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Speaker 1: I have I read your sub stack. I do read

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Speaker 1: your blog. It's just right now as a hype man.

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Speaker 1: I don't mean that derisively. I mean that, like your

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Speaker 1: job is ostensibly hype. Right now, it feels like there

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Speaker 1: is this marketing dissonance between in Firefly, which I'm aware

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Speaker 1: and I know there are lots of people who listen

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Speaker 1: to the showho are going to be very angry at

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Speaker 1: me that we're even talking about Adobe AI. Calm down, everyone,

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Speaker 1: it's shingy. Allow him in. But it's it feels like

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Speaker 1: you've got this massive business failure happening in the background,

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Speaker 1: billions of dollars burned from Open AI, but you've got

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Speaker 1: some utility. How do you balance that?

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Speaker 2: Like, how do you in what characterizational you said?

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Speaker 1: Generally they so, well, I'm talking about the fact that

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Speaker 1: you're hyping up something that is unsustainable right now, which

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Speaker 1: bit I mean the generative AI features of Firefly, for example,

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Speaker 1: the same.

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Speaker 2: Is it not sustainable?

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Speaker 1: Well, because open AI burns five billion dollars a year,

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Speaker 1: they still haven't worked out any profitability for any of

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Speaker 1: these models. Yes, but fireflies run on generitive models.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right, and they help create ad performances sure at scale. Right,

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Speaker 2: So at some point in time these things level.

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Speaker 1: Out when because that's the thing, like the amount when

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Speaker 1: there's demand for better right, I just feel like we're

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Speaker 1: a little lost within the general of AI conversation right

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Speaker 1: as an industry. Right, And I'm curious you see, do

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Speaker 1: you play with Runway. I've played with Sora a bit. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I just think I found Runway to be really fucking mediocre.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's a dystopian to it, which is definitely that

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Speaker 2: shine will come off and that production is going to

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Speaker 2: be pretty amazing. Single single tool that does one thing

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Speaker 2: no good, right, but a tool that allows you to

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Speaker 2: master audio without an engineer pretty amazing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, But does that exist yet?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: It does. With voice Riverside is not good.

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Speaker 2: Riverside is a podcasting platform.

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Speaker 1: And they have AI mastering on it.

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Speaker 2: God bless them, but they're not just doing mastering. So

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Speaker 2: you can upload something to something like voice AI and

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Speaker 2: it's absolutely designed for mastering, right.

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Speaker 1: But there is this massive financial problem at the side

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Speaker 1: of this, that this stuff is burning so much money.

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Speaker 1: And I guess you could have on device models, but

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Speaker 1: that's nowhere near what I just I don't know how

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Speaker 1: you couch these two things.

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Speaker 2: Supply and demand. I mean, there's a massive supply for

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Speaker 2: new ways of creating different tools, and the supply cycle

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Speaker 2: is incredibly wide. It feels like, well, you know, back

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Speaker 2: in the web one dot ohs cycles, right, but now

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Speaker 2: it has different tools that are much faster build.

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Speaker 1: But the demand isn't there I think. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: did a piece a few months ago and weeks ago

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Speaker 1: Jesus Christ time dilation where it was like co pilot

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Speaker 1: has like eleven million monthly active users, okay, which is

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Speaker 1: pretty pispor and that's Microsoft's I am hearing that there

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Speaker 1: are various companies like eleven Labs which are kind of

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Speaker 1: leveling out as far as user base goes. What happens

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Speaker 1: if this doesn't get much bigger?

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Speaker 2: It just continues to do what everything else does. It

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Speaker 2: tails off and becomes a niche, which is okay, you think, so, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's totally okay.

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Speaker 1: So you seem quite eye on it. So what are

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Speaker 1: you using? Then? Talk to me about the tools you use?

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Speaker 1: The obvious.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think chat's interesting. I think that Claude

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Speaker 2: is interesting to help you do draft one. So those

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Speaker 2: tools are fine. I think sora is it seems interesting.

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Speaker 2: But Dystopian Runaway works okay if you can actually model

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Speaker 2: it correctly.

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Speaker 1: When you say dystopian, what do you mean over glossy?

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Speaker 2: Really hard to understand. Depth of field like it's if

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Speaker 2: you are going to be a deep practitioner, you know,

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Speaker 2: the sort of thing you want to try and visualize,

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Speaker 2: that can be very difficult. And I think that's kind

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Speaker 2: of the challenge today is these tools do remarkable.

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Speaker 1: Amount of work.

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Speaker 2: It's a matter of can you get it to do

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Speaker 2: the work that you wanted to do without taking more

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Speaker 2: time than actually doing it physically. It's software, So it's

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Speaker 2: just software, and it's and it's curious, but it's not it.

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Speaker 2: Here's what I'm am saying. I'm seeing a consolidation of

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Speaker 2: tools saying here's one tool that you log into and

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Speaker 2: it does all these things for you, but it does

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Speaker 2: all of them only, Okay, so you have to splinter

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Speaker 2: off and find something that does just what you want

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Speaker 2: it to do.

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Speaker 1: So focused, and you know.

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Speaker 2: Better at book writing then maybe stories, or better that

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Speaker 2: draw oring than maybe paining a landscape. I mean these

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Speaker 2: articulations that become really just splinters of a certain technique

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Speaker 2: today or crud into one thing. And I don't think

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Speaker 2: anything does a great job. Words are great.

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Speaker 1: I think the agent if I agree on the words side,

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Speaker 1: I don't think well as at and you're still your

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Speaker 1: points made. But it's way better than me as a

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Speaker 1: first edit copywriter. So yeah, but that's a skill issue, shingy,

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Speaker 1: like you could get better by writing more. You could.

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Speaker 1: It's good, Like do you is your substack chat GPT

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Speaker 1: written or claud written? No, but it's but it's you know.

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Speaker 2: I think what's interesting about the tools I don't want

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Speaker 2: to have to necessarily become very technical when I'm wanting

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Speaker 2: to shoot an idea of a landscape or something. By

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Speaker 2: the way, I'm only using my own images and only

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Speaker 2: purposely not using anything generative. It's all like photos from

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Speaker 2: my own photo library, right, no stock, no, no generative

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Speaker 2: because until it's actually really good. As much as I'm

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Speaker 2: an advocate for it, I'm a better believer in craft

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Speaker 2: than I am. Then so can these tools like mastering

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Speaker 2: for example of sound love that love that for a

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Speaker 2: tool because I have no clue how to bring eqs up.

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Speaker 2: I have no clue how to bring in any depth

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Speaker 2: within a voice, and no clue on that.

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Speaker 1: So God bless, and do you use it for that?

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Speaker 1: Like you actually use it? What do you use for masking?

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Speaker 2: I use voice? I think it's voice AI. I've used

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Speaker 2: a couple of them. And by the way, when you

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Speaker 2: skim it, you know, when I'm looking for something, it's

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Speaker 2: typically at urgency other levels alone, and I can't seem

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Speaker 2: to bring them up and over peaky, and then I

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Speaker 2: use the service comes back it's too peaky or it's

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Speaker 2: got too much base. I don't know, right, So it's

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Speaker 2: really about can I use things tools that help get

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Speaker 2: to a better artifact than the actual tools that I

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Speaker 2: can use, Because democratization of tools means that everything is

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Speaker 2: kind of flatlined. So I'm looking for things to become

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Speaker 2: really interesting. I don't necessarily I don't necessarily think that

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Speaker 2: the quality of the end result is higher resolution enough,

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Speaker 2: but it sure beats squeaky markers and poof pads he

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Speaker 2: grew up with. So the efficiency of getting ideas out.

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Speaker 1: Love that, right, But is it craft if you're using

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Speaker 1: generative AI?

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Speaker 2: Yes, I think it is. I think it's I think

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Speaker 2: an artist can use any tool. This just happens to

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Speaker 2: be one of them today.

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Speaker 1: Right now.

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Speaker 2: You talked about value though, you talked about this thing

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Speaker 2: seemed to be bleeding money, et cetera, et cetera, all

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Speaker 2: of them. Yeah, God bless, what do you mean, God bless?

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Speaker 2: I mean that's that's going to be their problem at

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Speaker 2: some point in time. They're going to have to factor

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Speaker 2: that out and figure out a model that everyone's trying to,

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Speaker 2: you know, generate these tools that can be the panacea,

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Speaker 2: and then they're going to make money on it at

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Speaker 2: some point. Yeah maybe, yes, See, it's just not all

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Speaker 2: the tools he had to make money, you know that.

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Speaker 1: Sure, But none of the tools currently make money. Like

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Speaker 1: that's that's kind of thing. It just it feels like

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Speaker 1: an atypical hype psycle in that having lived through enough

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Speaker 1: of these now myself, I'm a little bit younger than you.

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Speaker 1: I've never seen one that was just burning cash like

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Speaker 1: this and it, but I've never seen one with more

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Speaker 1: nor have I ever seen one with more disconnection between

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Speaker 1: the utility and the marketing hype. It feels like they

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Speaker 1: are promising more than ever. Yeah, and we're in this weird,

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Speaker 1: distant area where it's like no one really knows what's

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Speaker 1: going to happen.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, I live in the space of ads still,

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Speaker 2: so from an ad perspective, there's no shortage of demand.

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Speaker 1: But for what though? Ads? Yeah, sure, but demand for ads?

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Speaker 1: But what about generative? Like where does general vay I

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Speaker 1: fit into this?

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Speaker 2: You saying creative but yeah, helping to create the ads.

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Speaker 2: I think the ads that are created with Generative are

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Speaker 2: pretty rubbish. Yeah, but the truth is there's a demand

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Speaker 2: for lots of ads because of just sheer audience growth.

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Speaker 2: But the reality is that efficiency of can you make

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Speaker 2: ads cheaper? That's a that's a conundrum.

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Speaker 1: Because is Generative I doing that?

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Speaker 2: I don't think so. I think they're doing some of it.

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Speaker 2: Perhaps maybe they're doing an interesting background that would have

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Speaker 2: taken taking you up, but it can't.

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Speaker 1: It's not the whole thing.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, if you and I would look

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Speaker 2: at a bunch of ads right now and try and

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Speaker 2: pick with their AI or not AI, you would I

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Speaker 2: think nine out of ten would get We would know

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Speaker 2: that it's written by.

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Speaker 1: A There's like an uncanny Valley feel to them.

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Speaker 2: It's got a dystopian I guess. It's kind of feels

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Speaker 2: a little bit like and we've gone way beyond hallucination.

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Speaker 2: We've gone into this kind of you just know, you

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Speaker 2: can just see it and feel it. It's cold, it's weird.

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Speaker 1: And the funny thing is this, I think what you're

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Speaker 1: talking about is not hallucination. It is actually a in

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Speaker 1: accurate depiction of something. But it's too It has this

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Speaker 1: kind of sheen to it does feels like the movie AI. Yeah, ironically,

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Speaker 1: it has said that it came off my head. I'm like, shit,

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Speaker 1: I'm stupid anyway.

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Speaker 2: And the number of frames a second seem off.

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Speaker 1: There's something very there's too much like I.

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Speaker 2: Completely agree with you, but it's also where I see

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Speaker 2: those sort of things used in more kind of tunny jads,

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Speaker 2: like things that are just trying to get a lot

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Speaker 2: of these creatives saturating the marketplace, which ultimately if we're

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Speaker 2: not careful, we'll make ads more expensive, meaning to get

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Speaker 2: to ed the human at the end of it. If

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Speaker 2: you if you've now just become completely oblivious or ignoring

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Speaker 2: ads that feel like they're aied because and the sack

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Speaker 2: gets figured out, right, you'll become blind of these AI ads.

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Speaker 1: So to get to us even going to be harder.

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Speaker 1: So this is the weird thing right now. Ads and

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Speaker 1: AI don't seem to have touched that much. Can I

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Speaker 1: say this because there's a company so you heard a

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Speaker 1: perplexity too. So Perplexity is allegedly Hayden Field that the

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Speaker 1: NBC reported this last year. They're apparently looking for like

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Speaker 1: fifty five dollars CPM on what platform on their search

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Speaker 1: net their search platform. Okay, but you've not really seen

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Speaker 1: ADS and AI touch like even Google's AI search they

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Speaker 1: just did ads.

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Speaker 2: No, I think perplexity if you were to give it

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Speaker 2: a prompt and it recommended something that you were looking for. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I assume you're looking for a piece of gear and

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Speaker 2: they recommend a piece of gear versus these other ten

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Speaker 2: pieces of gear. Ah, that review is probably in their

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Speaker 2: eyes an ad, right, you know what I mean? It's

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Speaker 2: not it may not be a display ad as we

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Speaker 2: but they're not.

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Speaker 1: They're not doing ads yet.

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Speaker 2: It's just you know, but I'm saying they could be

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Speaker 2: in the description. Sure are they formally not doing ads

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Speaker 2: or they haven't.

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Speaker 1: They haven't started yet because they want to.

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Speaker 2: And when they do those ads, they will be subtle

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Speaker 2: like that, they will be within descriptions, they will be

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Speaker 2: contextually relevant to that person in terms of the totality

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Speaker 2: of a story, not just a display.

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Speaker 1: I'm just wanting I think it will be No, no, no,

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Speaker 1: I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just wondering how they

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Speaker 1: pull it off. Because the whole thing with hallucinations, you

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Speaker 1: can't predict where an AD is going to appear or

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Speaker 1: what it's going to appear next to.

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Speaker 2: And I think that if it's with with if it's

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Speaker 2: with words, the context is wider.

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Speaker 1: You think. If it's with voice, they're not going to

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Speaker 1: voice as not.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's like it's just a wider context. Though,

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Speaker 2: So let's let's just stream for a second. If you're

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Speaker 2: able to do that, at least you've got a wider

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Speaker 2: concept of what the story is versus a display out around.

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Speaker 1: But I mean, I mean just like, practically speaking, if

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Speaker 1: you vomit out a bunch of text which may rip

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Speaker 1: off a journalist outlet, or to how do you like

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Speaker 1: I Perhaps the I need to actually ask you the question,

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Speaker 1: why do you think that ADS and AI really haven't

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Speaker 1: touched it? Because chat GPT doesn't monetize with that, Lexity

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Speaker 1: is thinking about it, haven't Google AI has only just

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Speaker 1: started considering it. Do you think it's a generative side

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Speaker 1: like you've been in the AD slot for that?

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Speaker 2: I guess it depends on depends on which place you

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Speaker 2: want to sit in that question. Are you talking about

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Speaker 2: me as somebody going to the tool to use it?

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Speaker 1: Now? I'm wondering why the companies themselves have been hesitant? No, no, no,

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Speaker 1: hang on, let me let me.

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Speaker 2: Let's get back to the context real quick so I

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Speaker 2: can understand the framing. Is it? Is it me going

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Speaker 2: to Perplexity's website to be able to use its tool,

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Speaker 2: and it's folding in ADS in the results of me?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I mean a generative I mean on a

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Speaker 1: grander perspective, like taking it away from just like the

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Speaker 1: user right now, You've been in ads for a long time, however,

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Speaker 1: so I think, why do you think they if it

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Speaker 1: was like ads to ad tech has traditionally been very

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Speaker 1: quick to adopt stuff. But they will rush. They rush

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Speaker 1: to fucking micat, They rushed to everything fast. Remember that.

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Speaker 1: But it's AI. They've generative AI, generative search Chat GPT.

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Speaker 2: Because I just don't think it's I would I would

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Speaker 2: say that it's just a little naive. And I have

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Speaker 2: seen you mean, I have seen ads that are directed

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Speaker 2: by so, scripted by AI, shot by humans. Sure, and

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Speaker 2: they look there's just something missing. And because that litmus

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Speaker 2: test of is it warm and after does it feel

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Speaker 2: like something that is a motive it misses? Sure, it

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Speaker 2: is going to get a lot better. Man, This is

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Speaker 2: not even a debate, but.

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Speaker 1: I mean it absolutely is a debate. I mean I

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Speaker 1: will absolutely debate the shit out of this. The training

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Speaker 1: data required to make saua better does not exist, even

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Speaker 1: if you took every video ever taken there. Adobe is

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Speaker 1: paying people to take video. But my question was actually

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Speaker 1: really way more specific, which is, you have been in

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Speaker 1: ad tech for a long time. Everything else has been

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Speaker 1: in like generative AI platforms are not integrating ads as

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Speaker 1: a monetization mechanis well, and why do you think that is.

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Speaker 2: Because the presentation layer of that, the actual ability to

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Speaker 2: generate something that feels like it's not coal specifically, and

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Speaker 2: I've said it a few times now, is not up

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Speaker 2: to snuff. Everything else in the background that is actually

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Speaker 2: using lots of big data to be able to represent

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Speaker 2: the right type of context to you. Today we will

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Speaker 2: call that AI is in play. So I think there's

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Speaker 2: a marriage between what's going on in the back Haman

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Speaker 2: along and the presentation layer of that, to be honest,

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Speaker 2: is terrible. I agre in comparison, I agree, but maybe

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Speaker 2: they need to be more specific. It feels like ad

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Speaker 2: tech is they will do the generative side. There's tons

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Speaker 2: of ad tech platforms that will generate like and you

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Speaker 2: see those the specs, or you've seen the ads too.

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Speaker 2: You've seen the shiny musclier person.

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Speaker 1: Oh god, yeah, the horrifying like beautiful people with like

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Speaker 1: nineteen pack. I mean more on a practical level of

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Speaker 1: you were a AOWA, you were inspiring them to do

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Speaker 1: more things. It feels like when it comes to the

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Speaker 1: platforms themselves, putting aside the actual ads themselves, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't feel like anyone not perplexity, perplexity being so

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Speaker 1: slow Google, especially so weird. It feels like they're hesitant

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Speaker 1: to attach ads to these platforms at all. To the platforms, yeah,

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Speaker 1: as in like they have an integrate because ad tech

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Speaker 1: loves integrating shit are putting stuff on stuff, But it

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Speaker 1: feels like they've stepped away from it like they had. Look.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and maybe maybe because of that's a really interesting question.

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Speaker 2: Maybe it's because it's just, you know, it's an interface

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Speaker 2: for creation and they don't want to actually bastardartter with

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Speaker 2: ads today. It might be that it might be that pure.

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Speaker 2: It might be that pure.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if it's difficult to integrate it because.

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Speaker 2: Or where would you because that's that's the interface today.

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Speaker 2: Feels a bit like Wikipedia meets answers dot com. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it feels a bit kind of retro, you know. And

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Speaker 2: because it's a new interface, the only way to put

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Speaker 2: the context around it is in the context of what

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Speaker 2: you're generating.

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Speaker 1: And it's so and that's random every time.

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Speaker 2: And it's also software equals ads. Before, So if we

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Speaker 2: roll this back to the early nineties mid nineties, there

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Speaker 2: were holes cut across websites for display ads and those

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Speaker 2: formats were accredited. Now it's so rare. There is a

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Speaker 2: little bit of through line that feels like it's consistent,

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Speaker 2: but it's not a consistent interface that feels like in

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Speaker 2: rap ads around it and particularly on mobile, but Destop

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Speaker 2: probably more so.

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Speaker 1: And I wanted to and like, this wasn't meant to

436
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:10,800
Speaker 1: be an oppositional question. It's just fascinating to me. Oh,

437
00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:11,359
Speaker 1: I don't think it is.

438
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:13,440
Speaker 2: I think it's a really good question because because I

439
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:15,920
Speaker 2: would say that these But the reason why I'm keep

440
00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:19,840
Speaker 2: on asking for a pointed question to the question is

441
00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:23,679
Speaker 2: that you've got creation tools and you've got consumption tools,

442
00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:26,840
Speaker 2: and at times they're the same thing. Sure, if you

443
00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:28,520
Speaker 2: look at Chat or if you look at you know,

444
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,479
Speaker 2: if you're a claud they're the same thing. So you're

445
00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:33,880
Speaker 2: in there creating as a creator as well as somebody

446
00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:37,439
Speaker 2: who is consuming that. That's pretty new from a dynamic

447
00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:39,640
Speaker 2: of a user interface, because you don't go in and

448
00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:42,000
Speaker 2: you don't well, you could go in and create a

449
00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:46,600
Speaker 2: video on the fly and upload it to Instagram, but

450
00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:49,560
Speaker 2: you wouldn't expect to see an ad on your creation

451
00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:51,960
Speaker 2: of that video on Instagram, you know what I'm saying.

452
00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,080
Speaker 2: So given that's the case, there's a new paradigm, that's

453
00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:57,640
Speaker 2: all I'm saying. And I haven't really thought about that

454
00:20:57,680 --> 00:20:59,200
Speaker 2: paradigm converging.

455
00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:01,720
Speaker 1: And that's the thing, Like your whole thing is what's

456
00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,840
Speaker 1: new and sexy and ads and all shiny, and it's

457
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:08,960
Speaker 1: it's just so strange. It's truly unique. Because when we

458
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,000
Speaker 1: had the bullshit AR thing, I'm sure you remember that

459
00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:14,840
Speaker 1: they had ads on that ship immediately. You could not.

460
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:18,359
Speaker 1: You couldn't you were filthy with filters. You could have

461
00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,240
Speaker 1: like a sprite filter on your face if you wanted it.

462
00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:23,520
Speaker 1: They had the ads immediately.

463
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:25,960
Speaker 2: Because in that context, it feel like you're really good.

464
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:26,879
Speaker 2: Can you just layer it?

465
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,000
Speaker 1: Yeah? And it's just like it and you I agree

466
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:32,400
Speaker 1: with you that they are creative interfaces when you look

467
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:34,560
Speaker 1: at them. This is not a judgment or how much

468
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:36,480
Speaker 1: I like them, it's just what they work work has.

469
00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,280
Speaker 1: It just feels so weird that ad tech or like,

470
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:41,560
Speaker 1: none of these platforms want to Sam Wortman said he

471
00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:44,360
Speaker 1: doesn't like it whatever, but it's just so bizarre.

472
00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,880
Speaker 2: What about the fact that the gold rush of AAR

473
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:04,359
Speaker 2: happening now is also part of the fallout of the

474
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:09,080
Speaker 2: euphoria of the web three NFT blockchain world how do

475
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:10,760
Speaker 2: you mean? And what I mean by that is that

476
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,120
Speaker 2: that was all the attention. If we meant on this

477
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,399
Speaker 2: particular show three four years ago, that's probably all you

478
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:15,960
Speaker 2: talk about.

479
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,520
Speaker 1: I mean this three years ago, but I was I

480
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:21,159
Speaker 1: was on that ship if we were. But you know

481
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:21,600
Speaker 1: what I'm saying.

482
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:25,400
Speaker 2: So, but that that has kind of that isn't as

483
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:27,960
Speaker 2: quite hypey as it is today. So what I'm saying,

484
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:29,880
Speaker 2: if people are saying Web three the future of that's

485
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,359
Speaker 2: more puristic. We haven't seen a world like this. This

486
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 2: is going to be incredible. It's by landing it blah

487
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:39,560
Speaker 2: blah blah. Perhaps the positioning of what does this new web,

488
00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,719
Speaker 2: better web look like? Jamming ads in it is just

489
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:44,840
Speaker 2: like having the uninvited guests to the paint.

490
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,200
Speaker 1: I don't know if I feel like it's the utopian thing.

491
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:52,760
Speaker 1: It's just the idea of any of these companies being like, oh, well,

492
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 1: we don't want to fuck up the Internet. I mean,

493
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,000
Speaker 1: look at Google Search. I mean that there is no

494
00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:00,360
Speaker 1: great effector that has fucked up the Internet. Ragavat, piece

495
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:04,800
Speaker 1: of shit. It's just so strange. And I've really only

496
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:08,200
Speaker 1: came to this conversation thinking about this because every single

497
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,680
Speaker 1: hype cycle other than and crypto. I can understand why

498
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:14,639
Speaker 1: the ads weren't quite as prevalent. I can understand because

499
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:18,040
Speaker 1: it's difficult to do blockchain ads. Christ what a hype

500
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:21,720
Speaker 1: cycle idea, But blockchain ads because the sure the immutable ledger.

501
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 1: But how would you actually reliably You could probably say

502
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 1: a click happened. No, actually it would be difficult.

503
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, attribution across that would be challenging. But I also

504
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:36,800
Speaker 2: think but on your point, I don't know why, to

505
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 2: be honest, but I do think maybe there is It's

506
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:44,639
Speaker 2: always an outcome. Monetizing a platform of popularity is always

507
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:45,359
Speaker 2: going to be an outcome.

508
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 1: It doesn't mater to me.

509
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:47,879
Speaker 2: And by the way, that's with every platform. You know,

510
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,120
Speaker 2: it starts with the purest of all the social platforms.

511
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,119
Speaker 2: None of them had ads initially. And then if you

512
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:54,639
Speaker 2: look at something if you go into the vault and

513
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 2: look at things like MySpace, they never had ads for

514
00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 2: the longest time because the artist was the ad. I mean,

515
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 2: you know, sure that makes sense.

516
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I'm just thinking, I'm having like one idea,

517
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,879
Speaker 1: which is very difficult for my brain. It almost feels

518
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 1: like these hype cycles have failed because they haven't found

519
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 1: an AD thing all of the previous ones. The Internet

520
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 1: is built on advertising, as you well know, but none

521
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 1: of them, not meta, not metaverse, not crypto, not generative

522
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,879
Speaker 1: AI have found a stable ad income. And I have

523
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,639
Speaker 1: to wonder if it might be that the subscription model

524
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 1: is not scalable, at least it doesn't scale to the

525
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 1: dollars that advertising can provide, which most of tech is

526
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 1: dependent on. Yeah, for sure.

527
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 2: I mean the subscription dollars versus the ad dollars is

528
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 2: still the pathetic.

529
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:42,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, forget about it.

530
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,680
Speaker 2: But there's something really interesting about that popularity though we're

531
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 2: still in this world of popularity right until right until

532
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 2: you get scale, you don't have an audience that actually

533
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,159
Speaker 2: you can monetize. But it still comes down to I

534
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 2: think these two interphases are in conflict because you've got

535
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 2: consumption and creation happening on the same platform, right, which

536
00:24:57,840 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 2: I think is incredibly unique.

537
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:02,679
Speaker 1: It is unique, however, I feel about generative AI. There

538
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 1: hasn't been something like this shit before, which is I

539
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:09,239
Speaker 1: find it deeply annoying and all of it frustrating, and

540
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 1: the environmental and the theft and all of that, and

541
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,680
Speaker 1: the fact it's actually fair the people it's put out

542
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 1: of jobs, feel like people who are already vulnerable as well,

543
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:23,400
Speaker 1: like art directors and like freelance audio people and freelance

544
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,880
Speaker 1: creatives are the ones getting fucked by this, and all

545
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,879
Speaker 1: of this is happening for them all to lose money.

546
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,399
Speaker 1: That to me is the dystopian part that they haven't.

547
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 1: They've No one really appears to be benefiting from this

548
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 1: other than maybe Samuelman and dari Ama Day.

549
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,959
Speaker 2: There is something to the culture of creativity which is

550
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 2: even in it adds today still is that creative is

551
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 2: considered a non working part of the media. What do

552
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 2: you mean, I mean that it doesn't count as part

553
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:52,680
Speaker 2: of the media creative.

554
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,399
Speaker 1: So it's always this cost item. Ok so what the

555
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 1: journalists and the artists and all that.

556
00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, the people should create the commercials for example, they

557
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 2: typically doesn't get rolled up as part of the media

558
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:05,160
Speaker 2: spend or success. So it's always debatable. Media isn't because

559
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 2: it's absolute, because it's skeary. You got a rate card,

560
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:08,720
Speaker 2: you know where the audiences are?

561
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:10,440
Speaker 1: You know, I get what you're saying. Who are the

562
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 1: people that have when you say it's not rated or like,

563
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,280
Speaker 1: it's not not contented part of the media. Who are

564
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 1: the people saying this is it the ad? The ads people?

565
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:21,160
Speaker 1: They just don't consider the.

566
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 2: Creatives, oh, the brand. So if a brand is sitting

567
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,120
Speaker 2: here saying, look, we're going to create an AD, but

568
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,400
Speaker 2: the cost of that ad doesn't get attributed to where

569
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 2: the media is because media is always whole.

570
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:32,440
Speaker 1: So that's always I'm not sure I understand.

571
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,679
Speaker 2: So I guess my point in saying this is that

572
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 2: we're always going to try and skinny down the cost

573
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,159
Speaker 2: of creation, right, Okay, that's really the nut of it,

574
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 2: because everything else that's ray card, negotiable, whatever, But the

575
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 2: actual physical cost of the thing that gets placed that

576
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 2: always seems to be.

577
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 1: A step child. Yeah yeah, yeah, No, that's a shame.

578
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 2: And so when you talk about vulnerability, I completely agree

579
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 2: with that. The flip side of that is all of

580
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 2: these efficiency tools that we see, and AI is considered

581
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 2: one of those today because generative is just one part

582
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:07,159
Speaker 2: of it which is still trying to find I believe

583
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 2: its way. I find some things that are really kind

584
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 2: of amazing, but not all the time, Like I wouldn't

585
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 2: be using it all the time, but you can't.

586
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,360
Speaker 1: It is not reliable on that point. No, I wasn't

587
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,399
Speaker 1: even trying to gotch that, but you just can't write now.

588
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 2: And it's also you know, it's not higher resolution enough.

589
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 2: There's many reasons why, but it does get you to

590
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 2: mediocre faster, and so at least.

591
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 1: Jesus that allows you to not the secreme, but.

592
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:31,400
Speaker 2: You you know, so at least make those decisions to say,

593
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:33,159
Speaker 2: obviously that's a bad idea, we're not going to go

594
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,680
Speaker 2: forward with it, as opposed to somebody polishing ten great

595
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 2: ideas or ten mediocre ideas and finding out there's one

596
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 2: should have been executed faster, better, sooner.

597
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,439
Speaker 1: Maybe that's a maybe that's a case for it. I

598
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:48,920
Speaker 1: think you've really touched upon something though, which is I

599
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 1: think a lot of my listeners and my readers struggle

600
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 1: with why so many corporations want general if AI to grow.

601
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 1: And parts of it is the labor automation, why they want,

602
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 1: why they want to be a thing, And there's many

603
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,679
Speaker 1: stupid reasons. But I never thought about the fact that

604
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,119
Speaker 1: just in the ads world, which controls large swarts of

605
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:10,639
Speaker 1: our economy and funds a lot of the tech industry,

606
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 1: just all creativity was considered minor. I never I mean,

607
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 1: it's very obvious now I say it, but like it's

608
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,159
Speaker 1: fascinating to know that from that is that like an

609
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 1: executive possession. Well, yet here's a challenge.

610
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 2: You have mediocre creatives seen by many, right, and you

611
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 2: see really great creatives seen by few. So that's why

612
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 2: it feels like the creatives still sort of sit.

613
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 1: At the back.

614
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 2: They're trying to do these things, but they whenever a

615
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 2: discussion says at scale, that's when it falls apart. So

616
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 2: that's why it's it's kind of.

617
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 1: Why is mediocre seen by the many? Though?

618
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 2: Like why does the mis simply because of format? I

619
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 2: think is really you know, the ability to try and

620
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:56,719
Speaker 2: create something that has a contagiousness to it. Today seems

621
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 2: to have a celebrity moment those days. I think it

622
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 2: kind of at least falling away, and there are better

623
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 2: places for people to hold their attention, So metrics have

624
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 2: to change effectively, go away from popularity and talk about

625
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 2: other things like how do you hold somebody's attention for

626
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 2: the longest time versus just trying to saturate you know, right,

627
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 2: I mean I think it's I think the landscape's changing,

628
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 2: but I don't think it's I don't think creation of

629
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 2: content or creativity is evolving at the same pace.

630
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 1: But would evolving even matter if there was this attitude

631
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 1: towards creatives? Ah?

632
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, eg format, of course, what do you mean

633
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 2: shape of the ad?

634
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 1: Sure, style of the ad.

635
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 2: You know you talked about ar as a good example.

636
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 2: That was small orient's wow experience to be honest, but where.

637
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 1: Was the conversion there? Because that's the thing. It doesn't

638
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 1: feel like there has been a new successful ad format

639
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 1: in a long time. Have you seen others?

640
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 2: I really haven't. It's so strang you know, I've tried

641
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 2: on as I'm sure you have with vision Pro. You've

642
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 2: tried on the goggles? Oh christ, yes, you know I

643
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 2: can't really see anybody. Firstly, it just doesn't scale. It

644
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 2: comes back to that, right, there is no scale, but

645
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 2: it's immersive. But the reality of are you building things

646
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 2: for a wonder many? Are you building it for one

647
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 2: to one?

648
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 1: And just even then I have to wonder if there's

649
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 1: not a problem which we the geniuses have discovered, which

650
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 1: is there is no like we're in the iHeartRadio studios.

651
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 1: One of the most successful advertising formats, and as my

652
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 1: listeners love to tell me, is the ads. The basic

653
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 1: radio play ads and display ads and so CPACPM. Otherwise,

654
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 1: it doesn't feel like advertising has evolved. It's tried to evolve.

655
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean we tried to do it with Devil.

656
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 2: We try to do it with these incredible formats and

657
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 2: at least work. They certainly did, and the measurement of

658
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 2: work is you know, dwell time click through all of

659
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 2: those things that you can measure. They were going through

660
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 2: the roof and they work until they become standards and

661
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 2: then they don't work because they're everywhere. So there's this

662
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 2: exclusivity to these things that make you feel like you're scale,

663
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 2: and then scale comes in rum because when everyone does

664
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 2: the same thing and it all gets back to well,

665
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 2: you end up with homogenization. Right, So that's why just

666
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 2: why it's homogenized. Everything feels normalized. It feels consistently the

667
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 2: same thing, regardless of what you put in. It was

668
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 2: there was something and you know, this conversation makes me

669
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 2: think of something that was retro years ago when these

670
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 2: ad formats came out. There was this ad and I

671
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 2: don't know what brand it is, So that's at the

672
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 2: jump that tells me that the thing didn't work. But

673
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 2: what was working was this incredible experience. So a band

674
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 2: built shape of a AD display, add two shapes. One

675
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 2: was square, one was rectangular, and in this square they

676
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 2: had a drama and maybe a guitarist. In that square

677
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 2: that had a basis and maybe the vocals. And they

678
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 2: were playing live in these displays and display and those

679
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 2: live displays because they were they were being broadcast to

680
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 2: these websites.

681
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 1: That's so strange. It was so fabulous. Did it it felt?

682
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 2: I don't know, but it made a hell of an

683
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 2: impression on me twenty years upstream. So that's the thing

684
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 2: it's and it just felt very inventive.

685
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 1: That is inventive. I'm also going to have to look

686
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 1: this up because that's how the hell.

687
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 2: Ben in a box or something. I don't look this up.

688
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 2: It's very cool, but it's you get it.

689
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 1: It feels almost as if the more I think about

690
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 1: the ads and display ads and all this, how like

691
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 1: this might actually be what's really undermined general if AI,

692
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 1: which is they are trying to scale something that requires

693
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 1: advertising dollar level funding with subscriptions, which may not work.

694
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 2: I think you've hit on something, But I do think

695
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 2: that when there's a format that becomes consistent, which doesn't

696
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 2: exist today.

697
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 1: Right, when you've.

698
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 2: Got that, there's always these outlines.

699
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 1: That are trying to create something around that format. Right.

700
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 2: So back then in the day, there was breakout and

701
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 2: you have an AD, you click on it, you know,

702
00:32:57,560 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 2: folds open, right, you know, all of those sort of

703
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 2: things that happened. All of that stuff was really just

704
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 2: to say, here's the format that we've all decided is important.

705
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 2: We're going to put this value on top of it.

706
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 2: That makes it feel like it's really different and it

707
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 2: reminds me of that band in the box thing. Yeah,

708
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 2: because there's no consistent interface, you can't have a consistent AD.

709
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 2: So everything around all these ads that we're going to see,

710
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 2: they're going to be cloaked in this thing called context

711
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 2: in value, I think, and it will be obstigated because

712
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 2: it'll come back as a long paragraph talking about why

713
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 2: I should buy these Sony headphones versus something else. Yeah.

714
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 1: I can see them trying that for sure. I mean,

715
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: particularly in descriptive results. The problem is if that if

716
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 1: that result is generative, that's going to shave off that

717
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 1: little bit of CPM revenue. That's going to scrape it off.

718
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 1: It's like it's almost as if it's antithetical to add I. Actually,

719
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 1: I'll tell you where it won't shave it off.

720
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 2: It won't shave it off because you'll probably move from

721
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 2: a CPA to sorry, CPM to a CBA so appeciship

722
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 2: would that be?

723
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 1: Who knows?

724
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 2: But it depends on the cost of I mean, it

725
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 2: depends on what the attribution cost it's going to be.

726
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 2: But let me just stay with me for a second.

727
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 2: If it moves from cost per mili into or thousands

728
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 2: to cost per acquisition, and there is a direct cost

729
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 2: because that AD is generated wonder one, right, so that

730
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:10,799
Speaker 2: it isn't a many to many model to wonder many

731
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,439
Speaker 2: and sorry, it's actually a wonder one generative. So I'm

732
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 2: able to produce an AD that feels highly tailored to

733
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:17,840
Speaker 2: add in his needs.

734
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,799
Speaker 1: But that should be highly valuableized. It should be. But

735
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:23,720
Speaker 1: the hallucination when you scale it to a million people

736
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 1: is the thing. But you don't have to.

737
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:26,879
Speaker 2: Sorry, you don't have to scale it, is what I'm saying.

738
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,280
Speaker 2: You do, No, you don't, you don't because if people

739
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 2: aren't if you're searching generally for an AD some.

740
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:35,840
Speaker 1: Headphones, we're searching for some headphones and you're presented with

741
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 1: an AD for headphones, if it's generating for each person,

742
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 1: say a million people see this ad and it is

743
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 1: one to one. Yeah, it's still generative with fresh game.

744
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,879
Speaker 1: At one point it's going to hallucinate. It's just right.

745
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong with the idea.

746
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,400
Speaker 1: It's just it's not completely thought out, I can tell you.

747
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:54,280
Speaker 1: But I love what is scale?

748
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and it's like the scale is a challenge.

749
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 1: With genera full stop, with generative AI is it's I

750
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 1: just have to wonder if this is not part of

751
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 1: the economic failure, because it doesn't. It scales, but when

752
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 1: you try and scale it in the traditional tech software

753
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 1: way subscriptions, it's not they're not making enough money or

754
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 1: not with it. But even when you try and put

755
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: it into ads ads, ads are by definition going to

756
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 1: be scaled to millions, hundreds of millions of people to

757
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 1: make any money. And if you're doing generative, you're going

758
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,360
Speaker 1: to have things like Google telling you to eat rocks.

759
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,840
Speaker 2: I will tell you that I think this conversation isn't

760
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 2: ready for that type of architecture. Because these generative tools

761
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 2: are designed for generating, they're not just consuming. Sure, I

762
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 2: don't think there's a mass that. I don't think the

763
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 2: volume of people is is at a point where average

764
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 2: people are going to consume things based on search criteria

765
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 2: as a new rhythm.

766
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:53,879
Speaker 1: I mean, that's how Google makes all its money. And

767
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 1: it's Google.

768
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 2: But if you're talking about these other tools that are

769
00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 2: thinking about how they actually monetize, it's from a creative perspective,

770
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:01,760
Speaker 2: not from a consumption.

771
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. I was just talking at scaling generative AI as

772
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 1: an ad tech tool or add tool.

773
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:10,279
Speaker 2: And in your reference to that example with Google, yeah,

774
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 2: I'd be surprised if they're not at least trying.

775
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 1: Oh, they just started trying it. But it's funny. It's

776
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 1: just in their search results. In their search started Gemini tools,

777
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, well no, they're now putting Gemini front

778
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 1: and center, which is so funny. It's just like, but

779
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,319
Speaker 1: it definitely crowds out of their homepage. Well that's the thing,

780
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:32,399
Speaker 1: Like Google's in this weird, this really weird spot now

781
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 1: And actually.

782
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 2: Do you think it's a catch ups? What to tell

783
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 2: me when you say weird? To find that some more?

784
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 1: Well, I mean that Google search has never been worse.

785
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 1: It's definitely worse. It's ever been a little bit like

786
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 1: Craigslist of the nineties. Yes, by comparison, Craigslist information was

787
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 1: relatively validated. I mean you didn't. You didn't have crags

788
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 1: list optimization experts, and if you did, I'd love to

789
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 1: meet them. But it's Google's position right now is they're

790
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 1: behind on AI, even though it's like being the first

791
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 1: to eat out of the toilet. In my opinion, it's

792
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 1: they're behind on AI. They're a traffic is slowing like that,

793
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 1: everything is kind of contracting with them, and they're desperate

794
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 1: and people hate these AI search results. So yeah, they

795
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 1: are in a weird spot. But on top of that,

796
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 1: I think we've actually noticed one thing, which is the

797
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 1: core economics of tech are around ads, and ads have

798
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:28,760
Speaker 1: been the same fifteen to twenty years. They've had agree

799
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 1: I mean ads at scale.

800
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 2: Sure, So it's the at scale question that comes back

801
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 2: to that, because you know, everything sounds great in that

802
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,240
Speaker 2: statement until you say at scale exactly.

803
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 1: It's kind of the world. Oh mate.

804
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 2: You'll hear that the creative brief stage where it's like,

805
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 2: how can we do this? But it needs to scale?

806
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 2: Like wow, But that's not take that out of the

807
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 2: vernacular ads. Take that out of the vernacular of metia.

808
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 2: It's everything is trying to scale. The beauty industry is

809
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 2: trying to do things at scale. They're trying to do

810
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 2: things at a high volume. I mean, this is just

811
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 2: part of the vocab.

812
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 1: It's an attempt to do something at scale with nuance,

813
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 1: which is almost impossible.

814
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 2: I imagine that's a good observation.

815
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,880
Speaker 1: I mean, look at the super Bowl commercials. They're all insane.

816
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:14,799
Speaker 1: That every single Super Bowl commercial is like either old

817
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 1: people doing something that young people do or eleven celebrities.

818
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 2: And I was watching there's lots of electric, lots of

819
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 2: retro soundtracks.

820
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 1: Exactly like Big Noises, And I feel very stupid because

821
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 1: now I understand they are trying to create something that

822
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:31,359
Speaker 1: they are trying to create something that everyone could enjoy. Man,

823
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:33,280
Speaker 1: I know so little sometimes.

824
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 2: But that's I mean, the truth of that is to

825
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 2: matter for everybody means you matter for nobody. Yeah, and

826
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,360
Speaker 2: that analogy rings true there. So there's something nostalgic and

827
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:45,759
Speaker 2: comfortable and okay, but everything around it has to be

828
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 2: super weird to try and make it fit.

829
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 1: And that example.

830
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 2: But you know, I think the Super Bowl is a

831
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 2: really good example of you know, to a moment right

832
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,439
Speaker 2: the rest of I don't know what happens on daytime TV,

833
00:38:58,560 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 2: but those sort of ads don't turn up there.

834
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, because you would also be spending so much money

835
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 1: on all of that, you know more about the economics.

836
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 1: I actually want to change gears slightly because you did

837
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 1: write something related to nostalgia and as a as a creative,

838
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 1: as you as you go about your business, are you

839
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 1: finding more demand on the client side? Four more nostalgic

840
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 1: things returning to the nineties of the two thousands, Are

841
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:37,239
Speaker 1: you finding any of that?

842
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not it's not a date stamp. Yeah, it's

843
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 2: just a feeling and that nostalgic vibe is I think

844
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,319
Speaker 2: it's as I think it's a throwback to Look, we're

845
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 2: in a room right now that has a lot of

846
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 2: nostalgia around it.

847
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 1: Maybe these buttons couldn't be more big.

848
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 2: I love them, and these sort of analog knobs and

849
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, Yeah, creaky chairs and you

850
00:39:57,719 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 2: know the only thing that's modeling here are the shaw mics.

851
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 2: Everything else this kind of retrod, including.

852
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 1: The Daniel Goodman's wonderful skills and.

853
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 2: The and the MDR headphones, whatever we're wearing right now.

854
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 2: But what's amazing about this is there's there's a throwback

855
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 2: one to those who are old enough to know about

856
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 2: nostalgia and those are them young enough to curious about

857
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:17,239
Speaker 2: it because they, you know, didn't grow up with it,

858
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:19,359
Speaker 2: but they're super curious, you know, to read through liner

859
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 2: notes and understand that there's a flip side of an

860
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 2: LP and there's something very there's something very moorish about

861
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 2: slowing it down because it's everything is highly consumptive him.

862
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 2: Then the time we've spoken, I saw you pick up

863
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 2: your phone. Oh that was the picture A dozen times

864
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 2: something waits one but can I not exaggerate? But what's

865
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 2: amazing about this is that there's something really kind of

866
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 2: about that distraction.

867
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 1: That the anchors it.

868
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 2: There's something there's something beautiful about nostalgia and I'm gonna

869
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 2: keep harping on about it because I see it pop up.

870
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 2: I mean, super Bowl is a classic example. I think

871
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 2: I counted like eleven songs or something, yet I'm gonna

872
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 2: misquote that, but I could pick everything from Bloody Huey

873
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 2: Lewis to Journey or something, and I'm like, my god,

874
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 2: you know firstly what happened, and secondly, is this the

875
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 2: only thing we have as this throwback?

876
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 1: There's something really unique about it. I have to wonder

877
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 1: if it's not a bit of trying to ignore reality

878
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 1: as well. You talk about them, I don't mean it

879
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:15,360
Speaker 1: when you look at the news, it sucks when you

880
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 1: look at the like everything kind of sucks. There's you

881
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 1: talk about the idea that we're constantly getting we're having

882
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:24,239
Speaker 1: to engage with our devices constantly, and I agree, and

883
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:26,239
Speaker 1: it's the kind of a return to a time when

884
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 1: we weren't harassed by them, even though we I love

885
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 1: being online, but at the same time, now I fucking

886
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:33,239
Speaker 1: hated it before online. I'm not going to pretend I

887
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 1: imagine normal people crave the time of not being online

888
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:39,760
Speaker 1: constantly and not having because it's not just like content.

889
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 1: It's you get working, as you get your texts from

890
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 1: people mad at you get a text from a T

891
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 1: shirt company you bought from fifteen years ago. It feels

892
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:52,759
Speaker 1: like maybe people are craving an off ramp almost or

893
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 1: permission to have one of these.

894
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 2: Yes. Can I also say, though, there's something about perhaps

895
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:04,240
Speaker 2: this fast culture that we've fu and this futuristic vibe

896
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 2: that we've been in something and what I mean. But

897
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:08,319
Speaker 2: I'm just going to apply this to front. I'm just

898
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 2: going to apply this to a thought in that statement

899
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 2: you said about nostalgia. When I watch a brand like

900
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 2: BMW line and I see their cars, which look amazing, right,

901
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 2: the love that a retro car, like an old car

902
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:26,080
Speaker 2: that they get, like back in the eighties, a boxy

903
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:29,319
Speaker 2: M series or something and M three or something three

904
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,839
Speaker 2: twenty five I or something, it gets way more love

905
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:36,320
Speaker 2: and commentary than anything they've got either in market or

906
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 2: even planning on doing. Aynda is a classic example. They

907
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 2: you know they're throughout this. They might bring back this

908
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:43,280
Speaker 2: boxy beautiful.

909
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:45,799
Speaker 1: Oh is this the electric one? But it's like an.

910
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:47,880
Speaker 2: Eighties yeah, and it's got the you know, it's got

911
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 2: the square lights. And you'll see people go into every

912
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 2: single design detail like the white wall time to the

913
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 2: to the type of mudcap. You don't get that sort

914
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 2: of detail today. It's all spec right, and then it's

915
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:02,279
Speaker 2: not there's no emotion to it. But you look at

916
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:05,560
Speaker 2: these things that feel like and it's not bygone emotion.

917
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,920
Speaker 2: It's a different era of freedom. And maybe that's kind

918
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 2: of the thing that is a land like terrestrial radio,

919
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 2: it's probably still massive. I mean, I had it was

920
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:19,319
Speaker 2: so bloody successful. Terrestrial radio is unbelievable, And.

921
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 1: I think it's because in a world of just sudden conversations,

922
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:24,760
Speaker 1: you have real ones. The reason that I like doing

923
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:26,960
Speaker 1: the reason that then any lessener is curious about this.

924
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 1: The reason I don't do a lot of virtual interviews

925
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:31,879
Speaker 1: is they kind of suck. Yeah, maybe it's pretty good,

926
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:34,480
Speaker 1: but the in person it's having the micropront it's like

927
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 1: hearing yourself that the basic tones. I also have to

928
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 1: wonder if the reason that people are nostalgic for things

929
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 1: like an old car, or like the CD player or whatever,

930
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 1: is it felt like the companies gave more of a

931
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:50,839
Speaker 1: shit because you talk about that thing probably scaling. It's

932
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:53,879
Speaker 1: built for everyone, but built for no one. Every car

933
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:55,719
Speaker 1: kind of looks the same. They all have the kind

934
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 1: of Tesla esque curve to it, or like they look

935
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:02,799
Speaker 1: like a Porsche Cayenne. Yeah not a car guy. They

936
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 1: all kind of look and feel the same, and they

937
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 1: all kind of and people are craving something that feels

938
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:08,959
Speaker 1: like anyone cared about building out.

939
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 2: Maybe yeah, and maybe it all got to a point.

940
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:13,279
Speaker 2: I think maybe designing culture generally has got to a

941
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:15,840
Speaker 2: point where it feels like it's efficient. Yes, and that

942
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 2: efficiency means it's not I'm not tied to any of it, dude,

943
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. Yeah, And that evolution of

944
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 2: design means that if you've got efficiency, you're really because you'

945
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 2: using battery technologies and you're using something that doesn't have

946
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 2: to feel like it looks like a pin, so it

947
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:33,400
Speaker 2: becomes wind efficient and you build something that's square, square, square,

948
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 2: square blast. I think it's amazing.

949
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:37,880
Speaker 1: I think this is why people don't like generally if

950
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,919
Speaker 1: AI content as well, because it really the point we're

951
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:42,319
Speaker 1: making earlier that it all kind of looks the same.

952
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 1: It has to be down County Valley. It feels like, Wow,

953
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:48,319
Speaker 1: no love went into it, not just like not just

954
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:51,840
Speaker 1: like this is mass produced. It's not even mass produced.

955
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:56,360
Speaker 1: It's this sub production where we're creating this thing for

956
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 1: nobody and everybody at the same time. I don't I'm

957
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 1: not going to debate generative AI's efficacy with you in

958
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 1: any further. I'm sorry about that. But you know, it's

959
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:09,319
Speaker 1: more we're all kind of craving a return to a

960
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:11,800
Speaker 1: time when things felt like they were made for someone,

961
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:13,239
Speaker 1: that they were made with a bit of a soul,

962
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:18,279
Speaker 1: and it sucks to be in this world and it

963
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 1: sucks to And I think that nostalgia is the natural

964
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 1: It's kind of the natural endpoint of a culture that

965
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 1: has escaped any kind of personalization or joy in the

966
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:31,399
Speaker 1: creation of anything mass market. Even the utility of these

967
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:34,360
Speaker 1: things doesn't feel like it's four people.

968
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:37,919
Speaker 2: You know, as you're having this discussion, and I'm with you. Yeah,

969
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 2: I look out at the screen that we're facing and

970
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 2: flow Rider was on, and before that was Flavor Flav

971
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:46,279
Speaker 2: and I think before that a minuscene snoop yep, And

972
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 2: I look at them and think, to your point, there's

973
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 2: something about these this cycle of comfort and familiarity that

974
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 2: I think is it's really interesting because what you're talking

975
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,920
Speaker 2: about is by the way, I will just put a

976
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:02,640
Speaker 2: pin in this and say that I think the generative

977
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:06,240
Speaker 2: AI creation will absolutely be for everything other than the human.

978
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 2: And when you want to put a human in it,

979
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 2: just film them and then add them to this generative

980
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 2: crazy background in utopia if you want to do it.

981
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:16,239
Speaker 2: But these blended AI experiences will happen. But I do

982
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:19,280
Speaker 2: think that because it's called CGI previously.

983
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 1: But I actually I'm going to push back on that

984
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 1: and say I believe that will happen. Yeah, but I

985
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 1: think people are going to get really upset with it

986
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:27,640
Speaker 1: because you're kind of seeing it with severance and the

987
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 1: Mandalorian when they're doing these weird I don't know what

988
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:32,920
Speaker 1: it's called, but it's when they do the on shot

989
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:35,920
Speaker 1: thing where it's they pretend they're outside, and for a

990
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 1: while it convinced people. Then you saw it enough times

991
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:40,239
Speaker 1: you're like, no, fucking another fuck.

992
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:43,240
Speaker 2: But what it would also do, though, is it'll inspire

993
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:45,880
Speaker 2: you when you see something that's really designed by cutting

994
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:47,560
Speaker 2: up the cardboard box to make it feel like a

995
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:49,839
Speaker 2: cardboard box. And I can show you some really good

996
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:51,879
Speaker 2: examples of people that push back against that and say,

997
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 2: we're just going to film this thing analog. Dude.

998
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:56,400
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I feel it and it feels so different,

999
00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 1: and it does, and it's just we're we're getting back

1000
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 1: to maybe nostalgia is just wishing that people that creatives

1001
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:05,879
Speaker 1: gave it, not creative. Yeah, it feels like the mechanisms

1002
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 1: of creatives more than anything, gave a ship and felt

1003
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 1: like they were putting any thought into it other than

1004
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:15,239
Speaker 1: just kind of simmering it down for everyone making creative.

1005
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:18,479
Speaker 2: I've almost bought the Samsung flip phone a couple of times.

1006
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 1: Oh it's so cool. Yeah, it's so cool. I love it.

1007
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:24,239
Speaker 1: I use that exactly. I need my I message. I

1008
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 1: need it.

1009
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:26,360
Speaker 2: I'm a pig and I don't have two phones. It

1010
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:28,760
Speaker 2: just drives me crazy. But even the matter all looks amazing.

1011
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 2: But there's something about that time when you'd have a

1012
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 2: flip phone and buttons and all that.

1013
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 1: I didn't. I didn't have a flip phone, right, the

1014
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 1: chocolate bar Nokia. Yeah, that was so good. It's funny.

1015
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 2: It's it's funny like chocolate bark.

1016
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:46,480
Speaker 1: But even then it kind of fucking sucked. I don't

1017
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:48,359
Speaker 1: know why I'm pretending like I like this device the moment,

1018
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 1: the iPhone.

1019
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 2: Because you're probably still talking on the phone and that

1020
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:53,160
Speaker 2: sounded god what it did on the tin. No, I

1021
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:54,840
Speaker 2: just you're texting with all those buttons.

1022
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 1: Yes, Oh, I'm a freak in many ways. And it's

1023
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 1: just funny because as we discuss all these different bits,

1024
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 1: it really is just like creativity is considered this stepchild

1025
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 1: of ads. Ads are the way that a lot of

1026
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:12,440
Speaker 1: people are exposed to an alarming amount of creativity, and

1027
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 1: it feels like people at scale are kind of becoming

1028
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 1: more aware of how much is manufactured for them. Maybe

1029
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:21,879
Speaker 1: it's not just that thing. Maybe it's not that things

1030
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 1: have changed a ton. I believe they have, obviously, but

1031
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 1: it's that they've kind of people are more aware of

1032
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:29,880
Speaker 1: when they're being fucked with, when they're being given the

1033
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:31,920
Speaker 1: same slop when they're being given And I think that

1034
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:34,880
Speaker 1: corporations may have slightly overplayed their hand.

1035
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:38,480
Speaker 2: In the mass production ere I mean you'll see that

1036
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:41,279
Speaker 2: with foods, You'll see that with I mean education in

1037
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:44,840
Speaker 2: that criteria is way more transparent and interesting than it

1038
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:48,000
Speaker 2: used to be because you don't have to have you know,

1039
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 2: you can consume less and probably feel better. And I

1040
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 2: have a question for you, is that an ordering where

1041
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:53,359
Speaker 2: it got?

1042
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:56,279
Speaker 1: Why you're wearing it? Because they track my sleep? Are

1043
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 1: you doing my workout?

1044
00:48:57,239 --> 00:48:59,400
Speaker 2: And you're actually you are using it as a utility?

1045
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:00,920
Speaker 2: I am you haven't how long you had it?

1046
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:02,279
Speaker 1: That's years? Yeah?

1047
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:06,480
Speaker 2: Generation like gen isn't it three? And do you find

1048
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:09,239
Speaker 2: so do you do anything with the data.

1049
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 1: Or you just do it?

1050
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:13,759
Speaker 2: Does it just reassure you, Oh no, this.

1051
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:17,160
Speaker 1: Is this is the terrible choice if if you wanted

1052
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:19,160
Speaker 1: any gotcha. No. So, actually I'm really interested in my

1053
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:21,759
Speaker 1: sleep because I realized a few years ago that my

1054
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:24,560
Speaker 1: sleep was fucked and I couldn't work out why I

1055
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:28,879
Speaker 1: was depressed. Good. I've become fascinated by what I don't

1056
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:31,440
Speaker 1: know weed or alcohol will do to me. Not that

1057
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:33,439
Speaker 1: I'm like experimenting, but if I have a bad night sleep,

1058
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:34,959
Speaker 1: I like to look at it and say, all right,

1059
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 1: this does affect me. I just got this thing called

1060
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:39,759
Speaker 1: a son as well. What is it? It's like a

1061
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 1: thing you've strapped to your head and it has the

1062
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 1: little electrodes that go on to the top. Is this

1063
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 1: fella you sleep it down on? No? Isn't you just

1064
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 1: put it on? It does like a fifteen minutes before bed.

1065
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:51,839
Speaker 1: It has increased my ram sleep and I have been

1066
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 1: feeling surely. But yeah, I'm annoying.

1067
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:56,960
Speaker 2: Sorry, What does this thing do? Does it give you?

1068
00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:00,080
Speaker 1: It has some sort of waves? It doesn't you. I

1069
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 1: should be able to say this oftenly.

1070
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:04,319
Speaker 2: But but you're finding your sleep cycles better?

1071
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:04,640
Speaker 1: Yes?

1072
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 2: Now are you finding that the patterns you your sleep cycles?

1073
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 1: Previously?

1074
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 2: Once you've sort of vindicated I'm having a crappy night sleep.

1075
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:12,360
Speaker 2: Has it changed your behavior?

1076
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:17,279
Speaker 1: Yes? No, I like how proximity of using any substances

1077
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:21,319
Speaker 1: before bed, like what I eat when I eat? That

1078
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:22,759
Speaker 1: was a big thing, like eating late.

1079
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:25,600
Speaker 2: I also, oh, well, okay, so you are you really

1080
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:26,400
Speaker 2: are digging into the day.

1081
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:28,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, because otherwise why I'm wearing this thing that on

1082
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 1: dating apps convinces people that I'm married. It's very fucking annoying.

1083
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:35,000
Speaker 2: There's something interesting about, you know, the adoption of these

1084
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 2: sort of technologies like athletes, for example, Oh yes, clearly

1085
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:40,160
Speaker 2: fall back to things like the whoop band and oh

1086
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 2: well or not, they'll wear a garment or they'll wear

1087
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:46,799
Speaker 2: these technologies that have been around for a long time

1088
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 2: for athletes. But you know, the eye watches of this

1089
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:50,799
Speaker 2: world or you know.

1090
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 1: I watch no no, no, that no, that just means

1091
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:57,160
Speaker 1: you've been around a while. You're just still saying the

1092
00:50:57,160 --> 00:50:58,200
Speaker 1: ship before they'd even know.

1093
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 2: But yeah, So what's interesting to me is, you know,

1094
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:05,600
Speaker 2: the subtlety of technology, while it comes down and gives

1095
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:09,120
Speaker 2: you what you need, hopefully that changes your psychology. Now

1096
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:11,239
Speaker 2: we don't you don't necessarily see that on the phone

1097
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 2: because all the phone does is kind of distract you.

1098
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:15,640
Speaker 2: We'll take you down a rabbitti. And so I'm just

1099
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:18,560
Speaker 2: super curious about what your behavior is, your relationship with

1100
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 2: that sort of tech. But it is because I've pushed

1101
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:20,960
Speaker 2: away from all of it.

1102
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:24,239
Speaker 1: I generally do like I with my workouts, I track

1103
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:27,360
Speaker 1: my calories and that is emotional. Yeah, good on you. No,

1104
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 1: that is absolutely emotional, and that's a good use case

1105
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 1: for that. But if I but oh no, I use it.

1106
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 1: Oh but this is the ultimate tech bullshit.

1107
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:34,759
Speaker 2: Though.

1108
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 1: I don't use this track all my workouts. I track

1109
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:40,799
Speaker 1: boxing with this. You box with the ring on? Yeah,

1110
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:42,480
Speaker 1: you bandage your hand up like that with the ring

1111
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 1: you get you get quick wraps on?

1112
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:46,240
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, and it just doesn't crush your fingers.

1113
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:47,880
Speaker 1: Haven't it did with certain raps?

1114
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:50,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's it's not the lowest profile ring.

1115
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 1: That's why I'm no, it's really not. It's like the

1116
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:54,080
Speaker 1: Chunky one Victorious.

1117
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:55,839
Speaker 2: Song of the Verge was, are we spending too much

1118
00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:56,480
Speaker 2: time with the ring?

1119
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:58,840
Speaker 1: I don't care. This is my show, do whatever the

1120
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 1: hell I want. I can say shit and balls and

1121
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:05,360
Speaker 1: all that. It is funny though, because all of this

1122
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:08,480
Speaker 1: talk about nostalgia. It is kind of where even I

1123
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:11,760
Speaker 1: personally am leaning I'm listening to fucking metal from fifteen

1124
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:14,839
Speaker 1: years ago. My favorite in Flames album is Colony, which

1125
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:17,560
Speaker 1: is twenty years old and barely resembles the band anymore.

1126
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 1: Like one of my favorite movies is the Guardians of

1127
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:23,400
Speaker 1: the Galaxy movie in the first one, which is inherently nostalgic.

1128
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:26,200
Speaker 1: And those movies got shit as all it became about

1129
00:52:26,239 --> 00:52:28,959
Speaker 1: was nostalgic. And now I've just had a live thought,

1130
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:32,440
Speaker 1: which is that is the thing that's that is actually

1131
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:35,000
Speaker 1: something that's driving a lot of culture. Which is the

1132
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:37,239
Speaker 1: reason the Marvel movies did well at the beginning was

1133
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:40,600
Speaker 1: they were fun, they were nostalgic, They had these characters

1134
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:43,200
Speaker 1: you'd love to see, and they got progressively worse as

1135
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:46,480
Speaker 1: these companies were like, Okay, what the people like about this?

1136
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:49,040
Speaker 1: Fuck it is the people they recognize. Look, it's the

1137
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:53,759
Speaker 1: guy from the thing. The corporatization of nostalgia, I.

1138
00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:56,200
Speaker 2: Think it's but it does get rebooted. Right, So if

1139
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:58,319
Speaker 2: you look at the music videos that are playing back

1140
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 2: here now, half those soundtracks and I'm paraphrasing this, are

1141
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:06,520
Speaker 2: using a soundtrack that's retro. Yeah, and there's something it's familiar, right.

1142
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:09,160
Speaker 2: You hear this backbeating thing that seems like that's funky

1143
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:11,640
Speaker 2: trim dammer from you know, James Brown, and you hear

1144
00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:13,680
Speaker 2: that in the track and think, Okay, there's a reason

1145
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:17,799
Speaker 2: why that works because it's just good and something about

1146
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:19,320
Speaker 2: the time that that was done.

1147
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:24,040
Speaker 1: And it wasn't created to scale right, putting even the

1148
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:26,879
Speaker 1: side generative AI for now. I just mean like, because

1149
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:28,680
Speaker 1: if you look at this, there will be multiple things

1150
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:31,880
Speaker 1: on TikTok where it's like a band has popped up

1151
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:33,759
Speaker 1: and you're like, wow, they're so good, or people have

1152
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:35,759
Speaker 1: said this and it's turned out to be like they're

1153
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 1: pretending to be a garage pan but it's actually a

1154
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:42,879
Speaker 1: signed artist with United and it's it does and switch Yeah.

1155
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:44,680
Speaker 1: And there's so much of it now and there are

1156
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:48,239
Speaker 1: things that are made to be to appear normal and

1157
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:51,920
Speaker 1: natural that are absolutely not. And I think people are

1158
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:56,600
Speaker 1: craving normality again, they're craving things that don't feel mass produced.

1159
00:53:56,640 --> 00:54:00,200
Speaker 1: I agree with you, it's a funny. It's a funny time. Yeah.

1160
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:01,839
Speaker 2: I wrote about craft this week and it was really

1161
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:03,760
Speaker 2: just about you know, if you've got all these tools

1162
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:05,080
Speaker 2: that make you feel like happy hands.

1163
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:06,880
Speaker 1: What do you mean happy hands?

1164
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:09,520
Speaker 2: Like very excited? And I can defend that all day

1165
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 2: every day. But what I lean towards is craft. You know,

1166
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:15,360
Speaker 2: I will all day every day rather a pen and

1167
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:17,600
Speaker 2: pencil than trying to scribble something down on my iPad,

1168
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:21,279
Speaker 2: you know. Yeah, so there's just something more visceral, and

1169
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:23,759
Speaker 2: I'm leaning towards that as a test to make sure

1170
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 2: I'm not losing my rods and cones, but that it's

1171
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:28,440
Speaker 2: not just down this rabbit's warrant of distraction that I

1172
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:30,960
Speaker 2: can actually be, you know, back to creation.

1173
00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:35,080
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Are you well? You say you say you're

1174
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:38,760
Speaker 1: like aware of your phone nagging you? Are you generally?

1175
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 1: Do you surround yourself with tech or do you try to?

1176
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:44,440
Speaker 2: I'll push back in how so I had all the

1177
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:46,319
Speaker 2: tech that made me look like a tribal leader like you.

1178
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 2: I mean, I get it, dude, but I when I

1179
00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:52,040
Speaker 2: don't game of fine, data doesn't excite me about myself, right,

1180
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:53,560
Speaker 2: and it's not that interesting.

1181
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:54,600
Speaker 1: And so.

1182
00:54:56,080 --> 00:54:57,960
Speaker 2: The thing that's wild for me is nature. I mean,

1183
00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:00,520
Speaker 2: tech is, yeah, it's great to but what am.

1184
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:01,359
Speaker 1: I going to do with it?

1185
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:03,200
Speaker 2: And I don't know if I want to do that

1186
00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:06,719
Speaker 2: with it whatever that is. So no, I try not

1187
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:10,120
Speaker 2: to I'm trying to push back to you know, no,

1188
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:12,960
Speaker 2: not trying to push back. I'm trying to restrict the

1189
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:16,560
Speaker 2: amount of things that occupy my mind and take my

1190
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:19,400
Speaker 2: attention away from creating.

1191
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 1: And what are you creating? And is it for? Is

1192
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:23,279
Speaker 1: it just for you?

1193
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:25,960
Speaker 2: I know, I'm right, you know, yeah, it is really

1194
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:28,839
Speaker 2: I have this concept of edition of one. It really

1195
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 2: is just for me, and it doesn't matter if it

1196
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:33,440
Speaker 2: doesn't scale. And you know, I'm a classically trained designer,

1197
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:37,279
Speaker 2: so I'm back to full design outside of my creative practice.

1198
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:39,080
Speaker 2: And I have a wet studio, so I'm in the

1199
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:41,799
Speaker 2: marriage studio. Yeah, I'm married to an artist. We have

1200
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:43,680
Speaker 2: you know what is a wet studio. We have paints

1201
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:46,640
Speaker 2: in the thing that are constantly dry. I mean it's

1202
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:51,359
Speaker 2: very practical, dude, and it's not screen free. A lot

1203
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:54,799
Speaker 2: of it is just back to articulating things, you know,

1204
00:55:55,239 --> 00:55:57,960
Speaker 2: playing music, you know, things that actually feel like I

1205
00:55:58,000 --> 00:55:59,560
Speaker 2: play guitar, seeing all that rubbish.

1206
00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:01,560
Speaker 1: But it's fun. But it's oh, it's funny.

1207
00:56:01,719 --> 00:56:04,319
Speaker 2: I love so more of that than just sort of

1208
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:10,399
Speaker 2: being a participant I'd rather be actively participating in it,

1209
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:12,680
Speaker 2: which is why I can't stand sports. I mean, I

1210
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:15,040
Speaker 2: can't stand sitting and watching sports. I'd rather play football

1211
00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:16,640
Speaker 2: if I'm going to you know, I'd rather go out

1212
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:18,000
Speaker 2: in the field and kick. If I'm going to kick.

1213
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:21,200
Speaker 2: I can't really sit back and watch. It drives me nuts. Interesting,

1214
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:24,880
Speaker 2: But there's something about kind of just taking that position

1215
00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:27,279
Speaker 2: of the polymath. I've got lots of ideas that I

1216
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 2: want to express. Let's get them down on.

1217
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:32,319
Speaker 1: Paine that they're expressed for you rather than yeah, can

1218
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:33,440
Speaker 1: less others find it interesting.

1219
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:35,480
Speaker 2: I've got a fashion co lab that I'm doing, and

1220
00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:38,640
Speaker 2: I've got these artisans and craft people in Mexico that

1221
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:43,040
Speaker 2: are actually hand stitching this embroidery in state of digital embroidery,

1222
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:45,800
Speaker 2: which I could have done finding it sitting it's sitting

1223
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:48,520
Speaker 2: on the fabric differently. I mean, it's all of these

1224
00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:53,200
Speaker 2: things that are slow crafts. They're bloody. It's just awesome, dude,

1225
00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:56,000
Speaker 2: it really is. No. It slows me down. It puts

1226
00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:57,440
Speaker 2: me in a place that feels more conscious.

1227
00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:01,440
Speaker 1: It's funny because this show came from a newsletter that

1228
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:04,840
Speaker 1: I wrote for three hundred people's fifty eighty five hundred

1229
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:08,000
Speaker 1: now and this show started with a lot of people

1230
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:10,719
Speaker 1: being very unfair to me on readit, and I will

1231
00:57:10,719 --> 00:57:13,399
Speaker 1: admit I changed into the internet. Oh no, fuck yeah,

1232
00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:15,839
Speaker 1: I didn't change shit. I just kept doing it until

1233
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:19,040
Speaker 1: I felt good. And it's interesting how the show's done

1234
00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:22,000
Speaker 1: well based on that, rather than trying to change it

1235
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:25,280
Speaker 1: for anyone, partly because I didn't. I never really understood

1236
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:27,320
Speaker 1: why I would change for them, Like I was like

1237
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:30,440
Speaker 1: Horsity at fifty five has told me they don't like

1238
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:31,600
Speaker 1: it when I say, this is what the fuck am

1239
00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:33,560
Speaker 1: I meant to do? Write it down and like avoid

1240
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:37,320
Speaker 1: the word fuck that. It just it feels that that

1241
00:57:37,480 --> 00:57:40,040
Speaker 1: is also another thing plaguing creatives, that there is this

1242
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:45,360
Speaker 1: apparent source of derision and judgment on tap right, and

1243
00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:47,320
Speaker 1: you have to do that to scale, to do that,

1244
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:50,600
Speaker 1: and the desperation for engagement is kind of stuck in

1245
00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:53,000
Speaker 1: the joy out of even the process. It's too slow.

1246
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:56,040
Speaker 1: It must be done this fast, we must be timely.

1247
00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:59,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, but there's one thing that's definitive is there's only

1248
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:02,000
Speaker 2: certain amount of time in a day, isn't it. You

1249
00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:04,680
Speaker 2: can't create a new version of it, but you can

1250
00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:07,160
Speaker 2: participate in it differently. I think this has been an

1251
00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:09,080
Speaker 2: interesting conversation for me because I didn't know what we're

1252
00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 2: going to chat about, if anything. Yeah, and I'm admirer

1253
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:14,640
Speaker 2: of your work, so congrats on all you're doing.

1254
00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:17,240
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Shingy. I think we can wrap

1255
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:20,080
Speaker 1: it that. Where can people find you, Shingy? Uh? You

1256
00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:23,880
Speaker 1: know the interwebs? Yes, but wow, Okay, I'll put it

1257
00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:24,480
Speaker 1: in the apisode.

1258
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:28,080
Speaker 2: I'm easily found on linked just looks probably the right way, Shingy.

1259
00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:29,600
Speaker 2: You could go to my dot com. I'm there too,

1260
00:58:29,720 --> 00:58:33,120
Speaker 2: hanging out. Yeah, but you know it's Yeah, this has

1261
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:35,919
Speaker 2: been a blast. Thanks for coming in on a hot

1262
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:40,280
Speaker 2: streak about Jen of course, and we exit out on pottery.

1263
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:44,040
Speaker 1: Sure your streets at my mum's spotter as well. That's Ron,

1264
00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:46,720
Speaker 1: all right, you've been listening to me. My name's ed Zetron.

1265
00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:50,160
Speaker 1: You can google them who destroyed Google Search and you

1266
00:58:50,160 --> 00:58:54,120
Speaker 1: will find the answer is me. Thank you so much

1267
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:56,560
Speaker 1: to Daniel Goodman or wonderful producer here in New York,

1268
00:58:56,640 --> 00:58:58,480
Speaker 1: and thank you, of course to all of you for listening.

1269
00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:00,640
Speaker 1: You'll now hear a very similar message after that. I've

1270
00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:03,240
Speaker 1: recorded in February of last year, and I swear I'm

1271
00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:05,400
Speaker 1: going to re record. Mattasowski and I were talking about

1272
00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:16,520
Speaker 1: this yesterday. B sal Thank you for listening to Better Offline.

1273
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:19,080
Speaker 1: The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song

1274
00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:21,800
Speaker 1: is Matasowski. You can check out more of his music

1275
00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:25,439
Speaker 1: and audio projects at Mattasowski dot com, M A T

1276
00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:29,920
Speaker 1: T O. S O W s ki dot com. You

1277
00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:32,440
Speaker 1: can email me at easy at Better Offline dot com

1278
00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:34,880
Speaker 1: or visit Better Offline dot com to find more podcast

1279
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:38,280
Speaker 1: links and of course, my newsletter. I also really recommend

1280
00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:40,200
Speaker 1: you go to chat dot Where's youreed dot at to

1281
00:59:40,280 --> 00:59:43,080
Speaker 1: visit the discord, and go to our slash Better Offline

1282
00:59:43,120 --> 00:59:46,320
Speaker 1: to check out our reddit. Thank you so much for listening.

1283
00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:49,880
Speaker 1: Better Offline is a production of cool Zone Media. For

1284
00:59:49,960 --> 00:59:53,160
Speaker 1: more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool Zonemedia

1285
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:56,080
Speaker 1: dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1286
00:59:56,120 --> 01:00:20,160
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.