Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Civic Sipher. I'm your host,
Speaker 1: ramses Jah.
Speaker 2: I'll go by the name q Ward. The Q is
Speaker 2: for Quenton, not Quentin. That's important.
Speaker 1: You got to make sure they know that indeed, and
Speaker 1: we are backup in you Onemogain this week. We have
Speaker 1: some more good news, but you're gonna have to stick
Speaker 1: around for it. Stay tuned because in the latter part
Speaker 1: of the show, we are going to be talking about
Speaker 1: what is known as the Crown Act. Basically, the House
Speaker 1: passed a piece of legislation. I was getting this word
Speaker 1: mixed up. Legislation I believe is the right way to
Speaker 1: say it that protects people with ethnic hairstyles. I'll have
Speaker 1: a lot to say about that, obviously. Well this is radio,
Speaker 1: so you don't know how my hair looks, but I
Speaker 1: have a lot of hair and yeah, but that's some
Speaker 1: good news and it doesn't involve people getting hurt or dying,
Speaker 1: and so I'm very much looking forward to the second
Speaker 1: part of the show. The first part of the show, however,
Speaker 1: is business as usual. We will be talking about traffic
Speaker 1: stops and then we have a couple of cases specifically
Speaker 1: that we're going to discuss as well as share some
Speaker 1: personal experiences. But you know, there are a lot of
Speaker 1: people who don't realize just how much traffic stops plague
Speaker 1: black people and black communities. And this is the place
Speaker 1: where we have to talk about it. We have to
Speaker 1: share that information so that people understand what it's like
Speaker 1: and that perhaps our traffic stops aren't as cut and
Speaker 1: dry as yours may be. But first order of business,
Speaker 1: like we always do at this time, it is to
Speaker 1: talk about some ebony X. How does that sound cute?
Speaker 2: I think we shall talk about some ebny excellence given
Speaker 2: to the people.
Speaker 1: Boom, all right. So Elijah Presley Baton Rouge is the
Speaker 1: youngest full ride scholarship recipient from Southern University. He's just
Speaker 1: fourteen years old. He is a child prodigy, striving to
Speaker 1: learn all that he can while preparing for his last
Speaker 1: few semesters at the HBCUs. A quote from him says,
Speaker 1: you have to have a mindset to actually know. Hey,
Speaker 1: I have to learn this. My life depends on it.
Speaker 1: This is what he told ABC News again quote act
Speaker 1: like your life depends on it, because it does. When
Speaker 1: you learn, you increase your life. He is a double
Speaker 1: major in physics and chemical engineering. Presley's pursuits transcend his
Speaker 1: academic career. He's hosted a weekly radio show, been featured
Speaker 1: in various national outlets, including a Cartoon Network special. He's
Speaker 1: a published author of two books, A Prodigy, My Secrets
Speaker 1: and Mission Christian God's First, God's Got First Coloring Book Edition. Additionally,
Speaker 1: while breaking records and making history, the teenager is an
Speaker 1: inventor at heart. He's already applied for more than FI
Speaker 1: pattents for his inventions. As he rises to the occasion,
Speaker 1: Presily is more focused on changing lives. This comes to
Speaker 1: us from Black Enterprise dot com. And you know, sometimes
Speaker 1: we talk about titans of industry. Sometimes we talk about inventors,
Speaker 1: we talk about business people, we talk about black girl magic.
Speaker 1: You know, that's what Ebony Excellence is all about. But
Speaker 1: I think this is our first child prodigy. You know,
Speaker 1: we of course we discuss famous people as athletes and
Speaker 1: so forth, but this kind of felt appropriate, and believe
Speaker 1: it or not, we kind of had to wait on
Speaker 1: this one because we had a lot to choose from.
Speaker 1: So once again, big shout out to Elijah Presley of
Speaker 1: Baton Rouge. You are a shining example of Ebony excellence,
Speaker 1: and we are grateful to have you as a part
Speaker 1: of our show today. Now, traffic stops, all right, So
Speaker 1: this comes from the Association for Psychological Science, and of
Speaker 1: course you can look that up if you so choose
Speaker 1: to verify these statistics. Traffic stops, which happen approximately fifty
Speaker 1: thousand times each day in the United States, are the
Speaker 1: most common interaction between law enforcement and the public. K.
Speaker 1: You ever been pulled over by the police.
Speaker 2: I've been pulled over a few times. Yeah, couple, couple, two,
Speaker 2: three times?
Speaker 1: Okay, it's safe to say nobody likes getting pulled over
Speaker 1: slightly inconvenient.
Speaker 2: It's inconvenient at best.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, okay, I'll continue. All other factors being equal, however,
Speaker 1: black drivers are more likely than white drivers to be
Speaker 1: stopped by police. Q. Is that new news to you?
Speaker 2: Absolutely?
Speaker 1: So you already knew that.
Speaker 2: I did. I've already lived that.
Speaker 1: Is it perhaps the case that you already knew that
Speaker 1: because you live a black life?
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, yes, Well.
Speaker 1: As it turns out, not everyone lives a black life,
Speaker 1: and so that statistic might be news to some folks. Again,
Speaker 1: this is the place where we share it. I'll continue.
Speaker 1: Two independent articles published in the Journal of Psychological Science,
Speaker 1: shed new light on how country wide attitudes toward race
Speaker 1: correlate with local policing. Both papers reveal that the greater
Speaker 1: the racial prejudice against black people within a county, the
Speaker 1: more often state troopers tend to stop black drivers relative
Speaker 1: to white drivers. Q. Have you ever been pulled over
Speaker 1: in a county by a state trooper?
Speaker 2: Unfortunately I have. And in one of those cases, my
Speaker 2: partner brother, producer and co host Ramsay's Jah was with me.
Speaker 2: I was with you, yes, sir, I was with you. Yes.
Speaker 1: And that was in Mississippi at night, after we've.
Speaker 2: Driven by several hundred Confederate flags.
Speaker 1: Ooh, that was a tense moment. Indeed, now you remember
Speaker 1: how I was behaving, So you know, we might have
Speaker 1: to tell a little bit of that story again, but
Speaker 1: I'll continue for now. In an accompanying commentary on the
Speaker 1: two papers, lead author Keith Paine, a researcher at the
Speaker 1: University of North Carolina, noted, quote, these findings are part
Speaker 1: of a larger trend in many studies in recent years
Speaker 1: showing that regional differences in measures of race bias are
Speaker 1: associated with important real life disparities. Has long been predicted
Speaker 1: that such associations would be expected based on small scale
Speaker 1: laboratory experiments. It is both validating for theories of modern
Speaker 1: prejudice and concerning for society that those predictions are being
Speaker 1: born out. Another quote, We should bear in mind that
Speaker 1: racial discrimination and inequality are pervasive cultural problems, not a
Speaker 1: handful of weird outliers that only pop up this in
Speaker 1: this or that corner of the country. Said extra. If
Speaker 1: racial attitudes really are the reason for the disparities we see,
Speaker 1: it would take large scale changes in cultural attitudes and
Speaker 1: norms to shift them in a matter that would impact
Speaker 1: disparities as well. In addition to considering the psychology and
Speaker 1: behaviors of individual officers, policymakers and the public should consider
Speaker 1: whether or how norms and institutional practices shape police officers' behavior.
Speaker 1: All right now, this is about getting pulled over, This
Speaker 1: is about traffic stops right now. A lot, I'd say,
Speaker 1: the majority of the stories that we discuss here on
Speaker 1: Civic Cipher, and perhaps even you know, I'd say at
Speaker 1: least half, maybe even the majority of stories that are
Speaker 1: shared with respect to black people interacting with police, you know,
Speaker 1: in the national news arena, have to do with traffic stops. Furthermore,
Speaker 1: as the article states, it's true not just for non
Speaker 1: black people, but for black people as well. Perhaps the
Speaker 1: only interaction that many of us will have with police
Speaker 1: in a given year or two three year period is
Speaker 1: in a traffic stop. Most people don't have police come
Speaker 1: to their house. Most people don't, you know, get hemmed
Speaker 1: up by the police at the mall or in the
Speaker 1: parking lot. You know, usually they're pulling you over. And
Speaker 1: as we've discussed on the show, just to give you
Speaker 1: a statistic here, for many years marijuana was illegal, and
Speaker 1: in some places of the country tree is still illegal.
Speaker 1: But this kind of shows you the way policing is done,
Speaker 1: in how traffic stops can impact poor communities. And today
Speaker 1: we're talking about black communities. I'll continue, if police are
Speaker 1: heavily posted in black neighborhoods, they are going to more
Speaker 1: than likely pull over more black drivers.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: If black people and white people use marijuana at roughly
Speaker 1: the same rates, And there are twenty five police cars
Speaker 1: in the black neighborhood and the black part of town, Anytown, USA,
Speaker 1: and there are six police cars in the white neighborhood. Right,
Speaker 1: where do you think you're going to get the bulk
Speaker 1: of marijuana arrests, right, If black and white people use
Speaker 1: it approximately the same rate, you know, where are you
Speaker 1: going to get the bulk of the arrests?
Speaker 2: Go ahead, and it's important to point out that black
Speaker 2: and white people using marijuana at the same rate still
Speaker 2: equals a much larger number of white people using marijuana
Speaker 2: because we are such a we are a much smaller
Speaker 2: percentage of the population. Sure, so the same rate means
Speaker 2: that numbers wise, it's not even.
Speaker 1: Close, right exactly. So what happens is, you know, there
Speaker 1: was this we did an episode a few months ago
Speaker 1: where we discussed how numbers are fudged, and you know,
Speaker 1: usually it's right, you know, conservatives, right wing conservatives that
Speaker 1: do their best to suggest that black people commit most
Speaker 1: of the crimes, right, And that's a false narrative. But
Speaker 1: what perhaps may be true is that black people are
Speaker 1: arrested more often than non black people. And we're pointing
Speaker 1: at perhaps the reason why. Right now, we're just talking
Speaker 1: about traffic stops here, but you know, traffic stops is
Speaker 1: sort of the precursor to getting your vehicle searched, and
Speaker 1: if you are going about your business doing whatever it
Speaker 1: is that you do, regardless of whatever color you are,
Speaker 1: again getting pulled over. It's more likely to happen if
Speaker 1: you're black, right, But what if it goes beyond just
Speaker 1: an arrest, you know, a civil violation? What if it
Speaker 1: goes beyond that? I'll share a story. This comes from
Speaker 1: the Washington Post. DELAYE. Gordon, a door dash driver, was
Speaker 1: a few hundred yards from his delivery destination when a
Speaker 1: police officer passed him hook do you turn and pulled
Speaker 1: him over for speeding? You remember the story? Qu you
Speaker 1: sent me the video, Yes, sir. On the side of
Speaker 1: the road in Collegedale, Tennessee, Gordon politely and repeatedly asked
Speaker 1: to speak to the officer Supervisor, Gordon's attorney says, but
Speaker 1: the situation escalated as the police officer demanded that Gordon
Speaker 1: get out of the car, while Gordon refused. A video
Speaker 1: of the March tenth incident shows get out the police
Speaker 1: officer ordered, pointing a taser at Gordon. According to the video,
Speaker 1: the officer, whom the College Dale Police Department has not identified,
Speaker 1: accused Gordon of not providing his identification. The video shows, Sir,
Speaker 1: I feel uncomfortable Gordon said, please get your supervisor. The
Speaker 1: officer then tried to pull Gordon out of the car.
Speaker 1: When Gordon did not comply, the officer pulled out his
Speaker 1: taser again. A moment later, video shows the officer used
Speaker 1: the taser on Gordon, who screamed in agony. And then
Speaker 1: we get a video right now says that the officer
Speaker 1: pulled him over for speeding.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: That may be accurate. Right, I'm not trying to say
Speaker 1: that I've never sped before. God knows, I have a
Speaker 1: very fast car. You have a very fast car. You
Speaker 1: have a couple of them. So that's the thing. But
Speaker 1: so is driving while black. If you haven't heard of it,
Speaker 1: this is a term that's been around. I first heard
Speaker 1: it in the nineties. I'm old enough to have heard
Speaker 1: it back then. Driving while black is the suggestion is
Speaker 1: that you were pulled over because you were black, harassed
Speaker 1: more than an officer would harass another person because you
Speaker 1: were black, perhaps had your vehicle searched because you were black.
Speaker 1: And if you make it home, you're lucky without being
Speaker 1: entered into the system or roughed up or whatever. Now
Speaker 1: I'm from La the LAPD we're known for that in
Speaker 1: the nineties, you know, beating people up, robbing people, all
Speaker 1: this sort of stuff. Haven't lived in LA in sometime,
Speaker 1: so I don't want to speak on anything that may
Speaker 1: have happened or in changes that may have happened. But
Speaker 1: I suspect that that culture is a slow changing culture.
Speaker 1: But this is the way I remember driving while black.
Speaker 1: So for me and many black people looking at okay, speeding,
Speaker 1: m all right, maybe you know, we tend to look
Speaker 1: at things like that because we live these lives. In fact,
Speaker 1: you I might want you to jump in and tell
Speaker 1: that story, but you know what happens if you're speeding
Speaker 1: and you're not black. Maybe you do and maybe I don't,
Speaker 1: but I'm going to guess. My guess is that if
Speaker 1: you ask for a supervisor, you don't get tased for it.
Speaker 1: There seems to be this idea that exists, not just
Speaker 1: with police, but with a lot of white straight.
Speaker 2: Men.
Speaker 1: Dare I say conservative men in this country that they
Speaker 1: are entitled to exert some degree of control over black bodies,
Speaker 1: over women's bodies, over pretty much anything. And if you
Speaker 1: don't do that, somehow their freedoms are being challenged or
Speaker 1: their authority is being challenged. It's like a bunch of cardmates.
Speaker 1: Right now. If it's a white man, you know, interacting
Speaker 1: with another white man, and they're both straight and you know, Christian,
Speaker 1: you know, there's no reason for them to have any
Speaker 1: sort of conflict. They seem to get along just fine,
Speaker 1: Shake hands, go play golf. Right. This is not me
Speaker 1: picking on white men who are older and straight and Christian,
Speaker 1: because I have many friends who are I've grown up
Speaker 1: around these people. I love these people. But if we're
Speaker 1: painting with broad strokes, police officers tend to fit that description.
Speaker 1: And many of the stories that we've all seen as
Speaker 1: a country have shown that these people feel as though
Speaker 1: they can exert a degree of control over black bodies.
Speaker 1: That's why this show exists because that's not right. I'll continue.
Speaker 1: We'll see if we have time to tell that story too,
Speaker 1: because I think it might be important. There's another story here.
Speaker 1: CNN recently unsealed video that shows a California man screaming
Speaker 1: he's black, by the way, screaming I can't breathe, before
Speaker 1: dying in police custody after a twenty twenty traffic stop.
Speaker 1: Federal judge has unsealed a video taken by the California
Speaker 1: Highway Patrol. It captures the death of Edward Bronstein, thirty
Speaker 1: eight year old man who was in their custody following
Speaker 1: a March twenty twenty traffic stop at Los Angeles County.
Speaker 1: He is heard repeatedly telling the officers, I can't breathe
Speaker 1: while pinned on the ground. The CHP California Highway Patrol
Speaker 1: video was released for use in a federal wrongful death
Speaker 1: lawsuit brought by Bronstein's family against the State of California,
Speaker 1: CHP and individual officers who were on the scene when
Speaker 1: Bronstein died. No officers have been charged in connection with
Speaker 1: his death. The decision to unseal the video Tuesday was
Speaker 1: made because the public's interest in the conduct of its
Speaker 1: peace officers outweighs other interests and any risk of particular,
Speaker 1: particularized harm. US Magistrate Judge John McDermott explained in this order,
Speaker 1: that's another BABA. US Magistrate Judge John McDermott. You know,
Speaker 1: usually the police officers have the judges in their pocket
Speaker 1: and vice versa, you know what I mean. But this
Speaker 1: guy says, Nope, We're going to show this video to
Speaker 1: the people because they deserve to see it.
Speaker 2: And I don't know if in their pocket is the
Speaker 2: right way to phrase that, because that makes it seem
Speaker 2: like they're being paid off in some way. They're just
Speaker 2: typically on the same team. Yeah, yeah, okay, and it's explicit,
Speaker 2: like if he said you were speeding, you were speeding.
Speaker 2: There's nothing for us to talk about, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean. Like, they're typically just on the same page.
Speaker 2: So when they're challenged in ways that should be standard
Speaker 2: operating procedure, it stands out to us because it's not.
Speaker 2: They're typically in lockstep, same way, regardless of any overwhelming
Speaker 2: evidence to the contrary.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm glad you said that, because a better
Speaker 1: way to say it is, you know, judges and really
Speaker 1: the whole criminal justice system, they all tend to have
Speaker 1: a shared idea of what justice is. Now, I'm not
Speaker 1: talking about the Constitution. I'm talking more about what to enforce,
Speaker 1: how to interpret you know, who it was written to protect,
Speaker 1: like the more abstract components. Because if you just read
Speaker 1: the Constitution verbatim, you read the law of verbatim, you
Speaker 1: know they're pretty clear, right or you one would think,
Speaker 1: but they're not applied equally inequitably across all places in society,
Speaker 1: and this is another reason why this show exists. I'll
Speaker 1: continue the lawsuit filed in the Central District of California.
Speaker 1: Alleged officers used quote excessive and objectively unreasonable force against Bronstein,
Speaker 1: who was quote unarmed, restrained, and surrounded by uniformed peace
Speaker 1: officers end quote. That excessive force was quote also a
Speaker 1: result of the neglig employment, negligent retention, and negligent supervision
Speaker 1: of the officers by the CHP. Now getting pulled over,
Speaker 1: We've seen how the traffic stop can result in death,
Speaker 1: and that's a very scary thing for black people, right,
Speaker 1: but now you know the frequency is disproportionate if you're black.
Speaker 1: Now you understand the concept driving while black. If you
Speaker 1: wanted to learn more about it, please google it. And
Speaker 1: now feels like yet another opportunity for us to share
Speaker 1: our story. Now we just have a minute or so
Speaker 1: here to do it. But ch why don't you start
Speaker 1: us off and tag me in. I'll jump in and
Speaker 1: round us out.
Speaker 2: I'm going to tell the super condensed version of the
Speaker 2: story because we've shared it multiple times and as you
Speaker 2: can imagine, it's upsetting to relive and recount. Ramses and
Speaker 2: I were pulled over for what I wouldn't even consider misdemeanor. Right,
Speaker 2: there are on most highways in America indentations in the
Speaker 2: road to keep drivers from swerving off the road and
Speaker 2: or falling asleep while driving. They make a vibration that
Speaker 2: you can feel and hear that will alert you that
Speaker 2: you're swerving or going across a lane and or off
Speaker 2: the side of the road if you were to doze off.
Speaker 2: I think that's the point of those things. On a
Speaker 2: late night driving across the southern United States, Ramses and
Speaker 2: I drove across those things. I call them rumble strips
Speaker 2: where we live. Those things are on the side of
Speaker 2: the road. In Mississippi, however, they are in the middle
Speaker 2: of the road, so if you get over into a lane,
Speaker 2: you will drive across those things. And a state trooper,
Speaker 2: a highway patrol officer, and I think a sheriff may
Speaker 2: have all heard us for a fraction of a second
Speaker 2: drive across those and pull us over. Now, I'm assuming
Speaker 2: we got pulled over because maybe they thought we were
Speaker 2: either dozing off or had been drinking. We're driving under
Speaker 2: the influence, and this is why we were quote unquote swerving,
Speaker 2: which is not the case. But upon about thirty seconds
Speaker 2: of conversation with us, it should have been reasonably clear
Speaker 2: to anybody whose eyes and ears worked that we were
Speaker 2: not under the influence and that we were just fine.
Speaker 2: Neither of us have ever had a drink, and on
Speaker 2: that day had just purchased a new car. The new
Speaker 2: car point is very very important to point out because
Speaker 2: after talking to us, asking us to get out of
Speaker 2: the car, and physically searching the car themselves, the officers
Speaker 2: then felt it necessary to bring drug dogs to further
Speaker 2: look for drugs or contraband in the new vehicle that
Speaker 2: we had just all right, let me jump in, let
Speaker 2: me jump in right here, and I'll round this out.
Speaker 1: So that is an example of driving while black. You
Speaker 1: see how the situation was escalated. They pulled us over
Speaker 1: for nothing. No one was harm whatever. They checked the
Speaker 1: car out. We're clearly not drinking. Q has never had
Speaker 1: alcohol in his life, neither have I. We've never done drugs.
Speaker 1: Neither of us have never done any drug in our life. Right,
Speaker 1: very obvious as soon as the officer approaches a car.
Speaker 1: But because we look like us, let's get the drug
Speaker 1: dogs out here. You know, and we have a right
Speaker 1: to be afraid. We were composed at this interaction, but
Speaker 1: it was terrifying, right, I understand why people run away
Speaker 1: because it's very scary when they have those dogs and
Speaker 1: they're you know, look, these guys are going to make
Speaker 1: up something about us.
Speaker 2: They were gonna do.
Speaker 1: You know, I'll take my chances trying to run through
Speaker 1: these woods.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: I obviously I didn't do that, but I see how
Speaker 1: a person who pays NIX might do that, despite how
Speaker 1: innocent they are. So this is the reality of driving
Speaker 1: while black. This is the reality of getting pulled over.
Speaker 1: And you're talking to two people who have a shared experience.
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about my own individual experiences of driving.
Speaker 1: I've been driving since I was sixteen, you know, same
Speaker 1: as Q and same as anyone else who was black
Speaker 1: or even people are not black. But the point is
Speaker 1: that those interactions tend to be very scary. And now
Speaker 1: we can point at numbers that tell us why, or
Speaker 1: tell other people Black people we already know why, but
Speaker 1: might tell non black people why it's so scary. And
Speaker 1: also a couple of stories, a couple of examples of
Speaker 1: things that we weren't able to share in previous episodes,
Speaker 1: but also point to this issue that says, hey, sometimes
Speaker 1: these interactions get escalated and people end up losing their life.
Speaker 1: So we'll leave it right there. Stick around your radios.
Speaker 1: We're coming back with more Cipic cipher right after this