1 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: All toll. Since I saw the Inflection Reduction Act and 2 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: the Chips and Science Act and the law, companies have 3 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 1: announced eleven billion dollars in manufacturing and clean energy investments 4 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: just in South Carolina, eleven billion dollars. Instead of exporting 5 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:24,759 Speaker 1: jobs like we did for decades, we're now creating jobs 6 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 1: an exporting product. 7 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 2: We've talked a few times on this show about how 8 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:34,480 Speaker 2: Washington is spending billions of dollars to lure battery factories, 9 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 2: chip making plans, and other future tech manufacturing to the US. 10 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 2: But there's a less visible side to this story. Smaller 11 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:47,519 Speaker 2: countries are losing out. They can't compete with the massive 12 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 2: subsidies the US and other rich nations can offer companies 13 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 2: to build on their shores. Bloomberg reporters Gabrielle Coppola and 14 00:00:56,720 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 2: a Current and Brian Platt report that this competition is 15 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 2: causing a lot of tension even among close allies like 16 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 2: the US and Canada, and it raises all kinds of 17 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:12,680 Speaker 2: questions about winners and losers in an increasingly competitive global economy. 18 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 3: I think the US is trying to almost build a 19 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,400 Speaker 3: new global supply chain that does not rely on China. 20 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 4: So governments are willing to dig in and say that 21 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 4: they've got to do this now to try and stay 22 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 4: in the game. 23 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 5: These companies now walk into the room saying pay up, 24 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 5: or we're building it somewhere else. 25 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 2: I'm West Kasova today on the big take. I'll see 26 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:46,400 Speaker 2: your billion dollars and raise you fifteen, Brian. The story 27 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 2: starts with a factory in Windsor, Canada that gets caught 28 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 2: up in this global competition. Can you paint a picture 29 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 2: of what happened. 30 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 5: Yeah, So this is a really huge battery factory being 31 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 5: built in the city of Windsor, which is just across 32 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 5: the US Canada border from Detroit. It's really in the 33 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 5: heart of Canada's auto manufacturing area of southern Ontario. In 34 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 5: March twenty twenty two, there was this big splashy announcement 35 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 5: where Stilantis, which is one of the world's biggest automakers. 36 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 5: It was number five in global sales last year. It 37 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 5: produces cheap Chrysler Ram That's what people would best know, 38 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 5: it asked, So, you know this major global auto company 39 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 5: was building a battery factory in Canada for its electric vehicles, 40 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,639 Speaker 5: which was a huge deal for Canada to land one 41 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 5: of these big battery factories. It's the next generation of 42 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 5: auto manufacturing. Canada refers to these as anchor facilities, so 43 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:45,399 Speaker 5: you know, to spin off a whole bunch of parts 44 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 5: suppliers around it. And so they announced it in March 45 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,920 Speaker 5: twenty twenty two. It came with a subsidy package of 46 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,640 Speaker 5: about a billion dollars and shovels hit the ground. They 47 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 5: started building it, and then a few months later the 48 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 5: US passed the inflation reduction at the IRA completely changed 49 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 5: the incentives, I mean, completely upended the whole regime. And 50 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 5: so when Canada had first announced this factory, it came 51 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 5: with about a billion dollars in Canadian capital incentives capital 52 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 5: grants for the factory, which was pretty typical for the 53 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 5: amount of subsidies that Canada would usually give a factory 54 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 5: like this. I mean it was maybe on the high end, 55 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 5: but it was a pretty typical grant really. And then 56 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 5: the IRA came along and suddenly this factory was if 57 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 5: it was built in the US instead, it could have 58 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 5: qualified for but one analyst told us is up to 59 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 5: nineteen billion in production subsidies, and so it kicked off 60 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 5: this huge problem for Canada of either it had to 61 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 5: match what the US was offering or it was going 62 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 5: to lose this factory that it had been so excited 63 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 5: about landing in the first place. 64 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 2: And Gabrielle, that's really what this story is about, is 65 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 2: this race among countries to secure these factories by providing 66 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 2: huge amounts of money in incentives. And the US is 67 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 2: the biggest by far. 68 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 3: Yes, I think you know, this is the biggest sort 69 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 3: of industrial policy push, the biggest amount of money spent 70 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 3: the US has really ventured into since the World War 71 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 3: two era, and it has sort of just completely shaken 72 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 3: up the way CEOs of car companies and I think 73 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:24,600 Speaker 3: chip companies and everyone is thinking about how they want 74 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 3: to allocate capital around the world, where they want to 75 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:28,280 Speaker 3: put their investments. 76 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,599 Speaker 2: And like Brian said, you know, billion dollars for the 77 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:34,280 Speaker 2: government of Canada to build a new battery plan. A 78 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 2: couple of years ago, that would have been like a jackpot, 79 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 2: but now it's almost just like, yeah, talk to me later, 80 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 2: I can get more money from the US. 81 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:43,480 Speaker 4: Yeah. The concern is there's now a race to the 82 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 4: bottom and it's been unleashed by the US government. Remember, 83 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:48,599 Speaker 4: it's complete opposite to what the US would have preached 84 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 4: in the decades postwar, like guy, we were saying there 85 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 4: it was all about the market. We'll find the solution, 86 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 4: companies will invest and get our ound two feet. Well, 87 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 4: what happened in the intervening decades is China took off, 88 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 4: especially in the EV space, and of course and of 89 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 4: course the chip production story slid away from the US. 90 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:05,599 Speaker 4: And that's why the US is now putting this money 91 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 4: on the table to bring this production home and try 92 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:10,359 Speaker 4: and get back in the race. It's doing two things. 93 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:13,119 Speaker 4: Like you say, it's a rewiring of economic philosophy around 94 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:15,720 Speaker 4: the world. It's aliening about US allies and of course 95 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 4: foes alike. And of course the concern is now set 96 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 4: office race whereby all the other countries have to come 97 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:23,720 Speaker 4: to the table and put money on the table, and 98 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 4: the companies can choose. You can pick and choose where 99 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:27,600 Speaker 4: they want to go, depending on what grants are enough for. 100 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 2: And that's just what happened, Brian, with this battery plan 101 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 2: in Canada. All of a sudden it stopped the workers out. 102 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 2: They were going to lose their jobs. But then what 103 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:37,359 Speaker 2: happened for Canada. 104 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 5: It can't do what the US did right, which was 105 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 5: to say, anybody who builds a plant in the US 106 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 5: can get a subsidy for Canada. This is just an 107 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 5: enormous amount of money. It does not have the fiscal 108 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,480 Speaker 5: firepower of the US, and so it's negotiating with each 109 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 5: one of these companies for each plant. It eventually got 110 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 5: resolved in July. They finally signed a subsidy deal worth 111 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 5: about fifteen billion Canadian dollars. And so it's just in 112 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 5: a whole other stratosphere now, and that's the game that 113 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:05,679 Speaker 5: Canada has to play now if it wants to attract 114 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 5: these factories and Gabriell. 115 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 2: It's not just Canada. But this has caused tensions among 116 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 2: the US and a lot of its allies, just because 117 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 2: the hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars in the 118 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 2: US has to spend is way more than other countries 119 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,600 Speaker 2: can spend. And if they do spend it, they're leveraging 120 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:25,479 Speaker 2: themselves pretty deeply. 121 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the US is trying to almost build 122 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 3: a new global supply chain that does not rely on China, 123 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 3: and so it's trying to build these supply chains with 124 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 3: its allies in EU, with Canada, Australia too. There already 125 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 3: was this sort of bidding war for ev plants at 126 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 3: the state level in the United States. 127 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, you hear about governors fighting with each other or 128 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 2: trying to steal companies from one state to another. 129 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 3: Right, I mean, that is sadly a decade's old phenomenon 130 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:56,280 Speaker 3: that's been going on a long time, but it's been 131 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 3: super charged by all this investment. I really think actually 132 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 3: that this started with the Trump administration when President Trump 133 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 3: started talking about bringing back manufacturing jobs and really taking 134 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 3: a sort of more hawkish stance against China. But so 135 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 3: now that we have a Democrat in the White House, 136 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 3: it's sort of that plus we're going to have a 137 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 3: lot of bigger government intervention and like, and I said, 138 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 3: that's really upending like almost half a century of like 139 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 3: economic thought in the United States, where we just let 140 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 3: the market solve everything. And you know, if you look 141 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 3: at the auto industry, it's a perfect example to kind 142 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 3: of question whether or not that really is always the 143 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 3: best philosophy, because it's fine, except that when you have 144 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 3: a global superpower like China with the biggest car market 145 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 3: in the world, is not playing by the same rules 146 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 3: as you. You know, how can you make sure that 147 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 3: you can compete if your companies are not subsidized by 148 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 3: the government, And we are of a decade behind China 149 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 3: now when it comes to electric vehicle technology. The Biden 150 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 3: administration believes that we did nothing for the last ten years, 151 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 3: and we saw China get a leg up on electric vehicles, 152 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 3: and now you see auto companies in Europe in the 153 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 3: US at risk because they have to compete with cheaper 154 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 3: Chinese evs. So really, all these investments are the Biding 155 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 3: administration trying to make sure that you know, obviously they're 156 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 3: very concerned about climate change, so they're comfortable picking battery 157 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 3: technology and using that as a way to reduce emissions 158 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 3: and electric vehicles. But yeah, they think that you need 159 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 3: the government involved to kind of get us where we 160 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 3: need to be. 161 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 2: And this is a really interesting point, is that there 162 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 2: seems to be two kind of competing tensions. On the 163 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 2: one hand, the government has not always been very successful 164 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 2: at picking winners and losers in the economy, and yet 165 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 2: on the other hand, you write that the free market 166 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:41,559 Speaker 2: itself hasn't been up to the job of figuring this out. 167 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, as Gabrella says, there is a case for the 168 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 4: defense in all of this when you speak to people, 169 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 4: the headline reaction will be, oh, my goodness, you know 170 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 4: there is a lot of money, there's a risk of 171 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 4: waste here. But they will also say to you, well, 172 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:55,839 Speaker 4: China has stole in the march here, China, how do 173 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,199 Speaker 4: you state aid in the way that the US has not. 174 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 4: There is a case now for government intervention with public money, 175 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 4: especially in the area of climate change. So for green energy, 176 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 4: for example, the market clearly is going to be sufficient 177 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 4: on its own to get to do what's needed there. 178 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 4: And then of course there's evs and the batteries and 179 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 4: everything else that Gabrielle was talking about, So there is 180 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 4: a case for the defense. However, I think what's unsettling 181 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 4: people is the manner of execution and this scale of it, 182 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 4: and its perception that the US has gone out on 183 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 4: its own a head of we'll say, key allies in that, 184 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 4: for example, with Canada, could there be a closer ally, 185 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 4: where about the US and Canada are competing over companies 186 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 4: for example. That's not a great look. And of course 187 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 4: there's also concerned that ultimately there will be waste, there 188 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 4: will be white elephants. You cannot throw public money at 189 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 4: something on this scale and there will not be waste. 190 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 4: And by the way, just to say, even the experts 191 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 4: are struggling to tally the numbers. And this because you 192 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 4: talk about it could be direct financial aid, could be 193 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 4: a cheap loan, it could be a grant, it could 194 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 4: be a tax break, it could be a tariff. Industrial 195 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 4: subsidy takes so many different shapes and forms that the 196 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 4: full tally of this might not be known for some time. 197 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:57,680 Speaker 2: Can you talk to us about how far ahead Chinese 198 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 2: has been what that means for the US to keep up. 199 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 4: In broad terms, their industrial policy, which was once a 200 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 4: source of mockery for we'll say the broad West, has 201 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:07,679 Speaker 4: now been saying, oh, hang on a second, this is 202 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 4: actually pretty good. But Jean is not alone. By the way, 203 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:13,359 Speaker 4: the whole East Asian model was all about state sponsorship, 204 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 4: massive government intervention. It was the South Korea model, it 205 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 4: was Japan's model, Taiwan as well, don't forget. And by 206 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 4: the way, South Korea, for example, it's still very heavily 207 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 4: involved in that space. They are also sponsoring the chip 208 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:26,079 Speaker 4: industry there in a significant way. But the no doubt, 209 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:27,679 Speaker 4: the net result of China is far ahead of the 210 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 4: US when it comes to evs and batteries. 211 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 3: I think people when they think about the United States, 212 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:34,440 Speaker 3: they think about, you know, how robust our economy is 213 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 3: in you know, Silicon Valley and these cradles of innovation. 214 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:39,559 Speaker 3: And it's true that we are really good at inventing 215 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 3: new technology. I think the challenge is that for the 216 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:46,959 Speaker 3: last fifty years, we've been outsourcing the manufacturing of technology 217 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 3: and scaling it. And because we didn't, we thought that 218 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:52,080 Speaker 3: was just commodity stuff and didn't matter. But what happened 219 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 3: is China started making all these goods and suddenly, you know, 220 00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 3: days at oh, well, now we've been making this for 221 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 3: so long, we know how to make it better. Suddenly 222 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 3: we're innovating, we're improving. And meanwhile, the West was still 223 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 3: pretty married to combustion engine vehicles, and China knew they 224 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 3: could never leapfrog the West on the combustion engine because 225 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 3: we've been doing that for one hundred years. So they said, okay, 226 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 3: you know, we don't care if you won't tell us 227 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,559 Speaker 3: your secrets on engines because we're going to build electric cars. 228 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 3: And so it's really the expertise they've gained in manufacturing, 229 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 3: which America thought was a commodity we didn't need to 230 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 3: worry about. That is what makes them so far ahead 231 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 3: of us. It's that they've got this massive scale and 232 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 3: the key to manufacturing and being profitable is you make 233 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 3: huge upfront investments billions of dollars, and then the way 234 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:37,719 Speaker 3: that you make a profit off of that is you 235 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 3: make a lot of widgets or a lot of cars, 236 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 3: and so China has been doing that for longer. And 237 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 3: on top of that, they're subsidized by the government, these companies, 238 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:48,559 Speaker 3: and they have sort of a command economy where the 239 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 3: government is basically saying, okay, you can only buy an 240 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 3: EV in this place, or you know, these buses are 241 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 3: all going to be electric now. So they've got this 242 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 3: perfect little snowball globe to make it all happen in 243 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 3: their economy. And that's why I think Biden and number 244 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 3: one is they're not worrying about upsetting their allies. They're 245 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 3: just going for speed. Because Biden's got four years at least, 246 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:09,319 Speaker 3: he doesn't know if he's going to get re elected, 247 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 3: so he's trying to move the ball as far ahead 248 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,319 Speaker 3: as he possibly can. But that's the thinking is, we've 249 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:15,959 Speaker 3: got to build this in the United States. And we've 250 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 3: got to move fast. 251 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 2: After the break. This competition isn't just impacting neighbors close 252 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:34,679 Speaker 2: to home. So, Brian, we started out talking about Canada 253 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 2: in the US. What are some of the other countries 254 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 2: that have felt the same sort of sting when the 255 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 2: US came in and bigfooted them on a manufacturing project. 256 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:48,079 Speaker 5: Pretty much every country in Europe and some of the 257 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 5: key allies in Asia, South Korea and Japan, they're all 258 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 5: going through the same thing that Canada's going through right now, 259 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 5: which is they know that this is primarily a US 260 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:01,840 Speaker 5: and China dynamic. Here, the US trying to protect its 261 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 5: own manufacturing base. There's a national security element of this 262 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:10,080 Speaker 5: to bringing this manufacturing back into the US. That is 263 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 5: the primary dynamic. But it has this followut effect on 264 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 5: all of these US trade allies. Companies looking at investment 265 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 5: decisions in their countries suddenly look at the incentives on 266 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 5: offer in the US and decide to leave there. They 267 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:27,080 Speaker 5: see this as generational decisions. Right, if you lose one 268 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 5: of these battery factories, for example, to the US, you're 269 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 5: not getting it back. That battery factory is gone. 270 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 4: If you do look around the world, governments are responding 271 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:40,560 Speaker 4: especially US allies, they are responding with packages on their own, 272 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 4: like in Germany, in normally in South Korea, the President 273 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 4: of South Korea explicitly called out the industrial subsidy rate 274 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:50,719 Speaker 4: and they are backing a package there of tens of 275 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,839 Speaker 4: billions of US dollars into chip space. All of these 276 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:56,679 Speaker 4: key US allies are responding now. Of course, there are 277 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 4: some concessions also being meeted out of the US government 278 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 4: is coming to the table of these governments to try 279 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 4: and to lay some of their concerns. But I think, 280 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 4: as Gabriela was just mentioned there a few moments ago. 281 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:08,079 Speaker 4: You know, as I say, I mentioned earlier the case 282 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 4: for the defense, there is a national security aspect to this. 283 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 4: So governments are willing to dig in and say that 284 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 4: they've got to do this now to try and stay 285 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 4: in the game on evs, on batteries, on climate change. So, 286 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 4: you know, I think we've gone past the point of 287 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 4: no return on this. 288 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 3: I spoke with Carlos Tavares, who's the CEO of Stilantis, 289 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 3: and even he accepts the fact that there are certain 290 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 3: strategic areas where it even is in you know, the 291 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 3: national security interest to make sure we can make it ourselves. 292 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 3: I mean during the pandemic when you had all the 293 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 3: COVID shutdowns of plants around the world and nobody could 294 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 3: get any semiconductor chips out of Asia, that helped spark 295 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 3: terrible inflation in the United States. And it totally I mean, 296 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 3: the car companies were their hands were just tied. They 297 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 3: were helpless. So I think that was a really important 298 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 3: lesson that was not lost on them. And so even 299 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 3: though I think there's concern among the private sector about well, 300 00:14:58,120 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 3: where is this going to end, and are we going 301 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 3: to you know, demand that we make everything in our 302 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 3: home country, because there's something to be said for you know, 303 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 3: cheaper goods from lower cost countries. That's sort of been 304 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 3: the you know, mantra of the auto industry since the 305 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 3: seventies now, But even they acknowledge that there is this 306 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 3: point about strategic value and making things for the sake 307 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 3: of national security. I think that is accepted by a 308 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 3: lot of leaders in the auto industry. I think the 309 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 3: debate is like what is the right balance? And I 310 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 3: think that is a very tough question to answer with 311 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 3: a lot of people have long entrenched either political or 312 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 3: ideological or economic beliefs about how they think things should work, 313 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 3: and that is all being challenged by the rise of China. 314 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 4: I think the Gabrielle's point, this is not about manufacturing 315 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 4: rich large right. The items that we buy in our 316 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 4: kitchen every day of the week, our TV sets, the 317 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 4: clothes we wear, the computers we have, all of that stuff. 318 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 4: That wholesale production is not going to be pulled out 319 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 4: of China anytimes. You an order rest of Asia and 320 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 4: come back to the so called Western world. Right, this 321 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 4: is about very specific areas. This industrial subsidy rates, that's 322 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 4: a whole other story. We will still be buying made 323 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 4: in China or made in East Asia for a long 324 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 4: time to come and. 325 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 2: End in the story, there's this one very vivid example 326 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 2: of how it's the rich countries that can afford to 327 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 2: spend this kind of money. 328 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 4: Oh yes, Germany, there is this very vivid example whereas 329 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 4: they came up a ten billion euro for Intel to 330 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 4: set up a battery plant there. That works out at 331 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 4: roughly one million euro for each of the ten thousand 332 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 4: jobs that they envisaged the plant will create. So that 333 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 4: tells you the extent that governments are willing to go 334 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 4: to this And by the way, This goes to another 335 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 4: part of this story that people that institutions like the 336 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 4: IMF and others are warning about. They're warning about something 337 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 4: called economic fragmentation, whereby the poorer countries you're going to 338 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 4: lose out. And remember, the poor countries, their whole elevator 339 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 4: pitches is cheap manufacturing. Come to us, we can do 340 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 4: this for you. Well, if the rich countries are now 341 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 4: in the game in such a significant way saying bring 342 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 4: these plants back to us, the concern is it will 343 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 4: have an impact on investment that would have gone to 344 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,159 Speaker 4: those poor countries. Yes, they will always hold on to 345 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 4: the cheaper, lower value added manufacturing as I mentioned earlier, 346 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 4: but they certainly won't be in the game to get 347 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:12,120 Speaker 4: some of this big, high tech, high value added stuff. 348 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 2: When we come back. Why exactly does it matter where 349 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:28,399 Speaker 2: these factories end up? And ultimately, why does it matter 350 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 2: that there are these huge subsidies in some countries and 351 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 2: not others. Are there big global knock on effects to 352 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 2: having this kind of imbalanced. 353 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, for all the criticism and concerned about this 354 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 4: industrial subsidy race, there are no shortage of academics who 355 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 4: argue that every economy needs manufacturing at its core. A 356 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 4: manufacturing economy drives innovation, it leads to dynamism. It's all 357 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 4: about ensuring your economy remains at the cutting edge of 358 00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 4: world class research and development. And if you want to 359 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 4: be a big industrial power, you have to have this 360 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,439 Speaker 4: core manufacturing base. And that's part of the story in 361 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:06,719 Speaker 4: the US where there was a concerns being hollered at 362 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,640 Speaker 4: and losing out to big rivals, obviously China, and now 363 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 4: there are plenty who will say to US had to 364 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 4: make this intervention, not just the US, but Europe and others. 365 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:18,400 Speaker 5: Also there's a political element to these manufacturing jobs as well. 366 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 5: That Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and Canadian Finance Minister Christia 367 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:24,120 Speaker 5: Freeland have both talked about this in their speeches. 368 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:28,160 Speaker 6: Because if we want small communities to be thriving, vibrant 369 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 6: places where people can be proud of their work, where 370 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 6: young families get to stay and grow, we need good 371 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:38,639 Speaker 6: jobs and great careers. 372 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 5: You need these manufacturing jobs. They're so important because they 373 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 5: provide well paid, stable work for thousands and thousands of people, 374 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 5: and when you don't have that in your country, you 375 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:56,640 Speaker 5: start to get a voter base that becomes anti establishment 376 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 5: that feels detached from the economy that they're living in. 377 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 5: They don't have stable jobs, they're reliant on gig economy 378 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 5: and precarious labor. Even from a political perspective, the sheer 379 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 5: political perspective of just people feeling like they live in 380 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,719 Speaker 5: a country that supports them and has a strong economy 381 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,400 Speaker 5: and that they have stability in their own lives. These 382 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 5: manufacturing jobs are hugely important for that. 383 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,959 Speaker 2: And ender with so much at stake other backchannel communications 384 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 2: among leaders, those are all allies to kind of smooth 385 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,920 Speaker 2: over anger resentment at the US and other big economies 386 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:36,119 Speaker 2: essentially stealing factories away. 387 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 4: They're clearly our communications going. You can already see that 388 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 4: the European Union have toned down our criticism from ready 389 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 4: ward start of the year because datamselves and are just 390 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 4: figuring out we'll wait a minute, how do we get 391 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:47,399 Speaker 4: in the game and how do we respond? As I 392 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:49,919 Speaker 4: mentioned earlier, there has been some meeting of ways with 393 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 4: South Korea and some of their concerns and where to 394 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 4: could be carve outs. Indonesia has also win talk, So 395 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 4: the US is certainly trying to placate some of these 396 00:19:57,119 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 4: concerns and as I say to you, there is a 397 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:01,680 Speaker 4: kind of feeling with this debate that on a headline level, 398 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:04,439 Speaker 4: there is like you first, you know you're breaking the 399 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 4: rules of the game, but honor the bonnet. You know, 400 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 4: in the same conversation, a lot of experts will say 401 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:11,199 Speaker 4: to you, there's a case for doing this. Lots of 402 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 4: Gorbman's feel that they also need to do this. So 403 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:15,400 Speaker 4: it's a reckoning moment for the world of manufacturing. 404 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 2: Gabrielle, is it working? We talked about how China's march 405 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:23,120 Speaker 2: ahead was one of the things that spurred these subsidies. 406 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 2: Is the US is the West closing that gap? 407 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:28,959 Speaker 3: I think it's going to be hard to really fully 408 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 3: close the gap, but I think if we can at 409 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:34,159 Speaker 3: least satisfy some of our own demand, then that'll be 410 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,440 Speaker 3: a big achievement. And to some degree, this was already happening. 411 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 3: I mean, the automakers were already investing in battery plants 412 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 3: in the United States before the IRA was passed, because 413 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:45,400 Speaker 3: everyone can see the writing on the wall that we're 414 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,920 Speaker 3: moving towards electrification, and auto companies in general they want 415 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 3: to localize, you know, they want to build where they sell. 416 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:53,440 Speaker 3: So you have that the real key is are we 417 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,119 Speaker 3: bringing in things like the other parts of the supply 418 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:58,680 Speaker 3: chain to supply those batteries, because that's really where the 419 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 3: choke points are, where you know, China really has control 420 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 3: they process something like you're around ninety percent of these 421 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 3: critical minerals that go into batteries. And on that front, 422 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 3: that still remains to be seen because I think you know, 423 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:13,680 Speaker 3: you see the Department of Energy here in the United 424 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 3: States giving out loans and grants to kind of jumpstart 425 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 3: some of this stuff, but we still need to see 426 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 3: the private sector kind of participate in that that. I 427 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 3: don't think the government can do that all by themselves. 428 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 3: And we're in a very high interest rate environment right now. 429 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 3: It's not the greatest time to invest. The impetus is there. 430 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 3: The incentives are certainly working. I mean in terms of 431 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 3: people are building battery plans, and the automakers and the 432 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 3: battery makers Tesla, gm Ford, whoever, Hundai, they're all very 433 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 3: excited about those subsidies because at another important point is 434 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 3: it's going to help them bring down the cost of 435 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:47,160 Speaker 3: electric vehicles. You know, if evs are so much more 436 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 3: expensive than a gas car, nobody's going to buy them, and. 437 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:56,680 Speaker 2: Is all this sustainable. The Inflation Reduction Act was obviously 438 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 2: a giant amount of money, but it won't last forever, 439 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,640 Speaker 2: creating expectations that can't be met in the future. 440 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 4: Already happening at a time when government debt loads are 441 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 4: at records are close to records after what happened due 442 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:13,160 Speaker 4: to the pandemic. Interest rates after high some decades, which 443 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 4: means to paying back all of that money is very expensive. 444 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 4: There's no doubt that this big shift if it happens, say, 445 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 4: fifteen years ago, when money was at rock bottom interest rates, 446 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:23,199 Speaker 4: it might have been a smarter move, but it is 447 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 4: a more expensive time to make adjustment, no doubt about it. 448 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 4: But the defenders will tell you it's an economic multiplier. 449 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 4: It generates jobs under ground. These jobs generate activity in 450 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,400 Speaker 4: their neighborhood, they spend money, they create other jobs along 451 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 4: the supply chain. So there's also an economic dividend that 452 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 4: goes with it, or at least that's the great hope 453 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:42,679 Speaker 4: with industrial policy. 454 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 5: Anyway, if we're. 455 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 3: Forward looking, you think about how much is this going 456 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:50,920 Speaker 3: to cost and whatnot? The diary does expire these battery provisions? 457 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 3: Do it start to run out? Around twenty twenty six, 458 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 3: twenty twenty seven, and they are dependent on how many 459 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,159 Speaker 3: batteries these carmakers and battery producers make. So if evs 460 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,880 Speaker 3: aren't selling and they're not going to make as much, 461 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 3: then it's not going to cost the governments as much money. 462 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 3: So there's a bit of sort of uncertainty there as 463 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 3: to what the final price tag will be. It's kind 464 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 3: of going to depend on the market. And another thing, 465 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 3: of course, is that in the United States, even though 466 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 3: there is a lot of bipartisanship around, you know, being 467 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 3: more hawkish on China, the Republican Party is not super 468 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 3: jazzed about this massive outlay of government spending in the market. 469 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,120 Speaker 3: So if we have a Republican president, you know, after 470 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,679 Speaker 3: twenty twenty four, they might not want to fund all 471 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 3: the provisions in the IRA or things could change. So 472 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 3: that's just as we look ahead, those are some sort 473 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 3: of you know, caveats to the picture of how it 474 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:34,960 Speaker 3: might change. 475 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:37,920 Speaker 4: I bet we will all be driving electronic vehicles, say 476 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 4: five years from there. 477 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 3: At least a hybrid. Well, we'll see. 478 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 2: And Gabrielle Brian, thanks so much for coming on the show. 479 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 2: Thank you, thanks for listening to us here at The 480 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 2: Big Take. It's a daily podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio. 481 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 2: For more shows from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 482 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen, and we'd love to hear from you. 483 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,920 Speaker 2: Email us questions or comments to Big Take at Bloomberg 484 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 2: dot net. The supervising producer of The Big Take is 485 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 2: Vicki Burgolina. Our senior producer is Catherine Fink. Rebecca Shasson 486 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 2: is our producer. Our associate producer is Sam Gobauer. Raphael 487 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 2: mcili is our engineer. Our original music was composed by 488 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:24,199 Speaker 2: Leo Sidrin. I'm West Kasova. We'll be back tomorrow with 489 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:25,360 Speaker 2: another Big Take.