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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff

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Speaker 1: I've never told your production of I Radio. Today, we

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Speaker 1: are thrilled to once again be joined by Kristen and

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Speaker 1: Caroline of Unladylike and of this show. Welcome. Uh, We're

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Speaker 1: so glad to have you. Christen and Caroline. Hello, thank

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Speaker 1: you for having us. Hi there, y'all, We're so happy

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Speaker 1: to be here. Oh, we're so happy to have you.

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Speaker 1: And when we were planning out this episode, Samantha reminded

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Speaker 1: us that it was February twenty, was it, Yes, you

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Speaker 1: were last recording together, and little did we know what

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Speaker 1: was to come, what was to come? We actually went

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Speaker 1: out together, had some drinks, had some pictures taken, had

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Speaker 1: some crap bugs had. Yes, it was a joy. That

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Speaker 1: was joy, so much joy. That's incredible. I we really

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Speaker 1: snuck that one in there, y'all. We did. We didn't know,

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Speaker 1: We didn't know. Yeah, I guess you have the last

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Speaker 1: pictures of me like out. Yeah. That is one thing

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Speaker 1: I have noticed in this pandemic that's like a really

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Speaker 1: lesser impact, is that from the past like year and

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Speaker 1: a half, I've taken maybe fifty pictures maybe, And that

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Speaker 1: was one of the last occasions of actual picture taking

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Speaker 1: and joy that wasn't like, look at this plant in

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Speaker 1: my apartment. I mean, I don't get that because I've

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Speaker 1: taken a lot of pictures. But yes, all of peaches

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Speaker 1: do so, I think because I'm a home more and

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my god, you're so cute. Oh is

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Speaker 1: it because I haven't been out and talk to people? Okay, cool,

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Speaker 1: let me take a picture, which seems right. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: mean that's one of the benefits I suppose of having

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Speaker 1: a pet. You can annoy everyone else with it. You

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Speaker 1: have something to take a photograph of exactly exactly instead

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Speaker 1: of my like, look at this D and D set

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Speaker 1: up I did, and it just looks like a computer

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Speaker 1: and a sheet of graph paper. I know. Does that

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Speaker 1: graph paper love you back? I've been pushing for booth, Carolina,

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Speaker 1: and I need to get a dog of sorts or

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Speaker 1: an animal. For the past year. I have been trying,

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Speaker 1: so absolutely no. Maybe one of these days, when I

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Speaker 1: am living in a more settled situation and I know

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Speaker 1: I won't be moving, I will bring an animal into

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Speaker 1: my life. Caroline. Not to be totally creepy, but I

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Speaker 1: kid you not. The other day I ran across the

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Speaker 1: photo of a core gy and I was thinking, what

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Speaker 1: is Caroline gonna to corgy? I can't wait to see

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Speaker 1: that happen. So I'm reading for you. I'm waiting for

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Speaker 1: both of them. Yeah, you know. My boyfriend and I

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Speaker 1: recently had a rough patch because he said that he

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Speaker 1: thought corgies were obnoxious, and I was like, wow, I

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Speaker 1: don't suddenly not sure if I see a future that

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Speaker 1: he just needs to meet some corgies. Your boyfriend and

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Speaker 1: I bonded over this though, because I was like, I

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Speaker 1: think dogs are overrated. Don't yell at the internet. I

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Speaker 1: already got the hate from it, and he was like, yes,

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Speaker 1: I agree, and I was like, yeah, okay, so we

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Speaker 1: got a real, real podcast divided. Well, it's pretty much

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Speaker 1: just me, I think, and then the internet doesn't like

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Speaker 1: my opinions about it. Yeah, And I can't believe you

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Speaker 1: just said that again again, She continues to say this.

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Speaker 1: I think she just wants to see who's recording controversy.

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Speaker 1: You're just trying to land on the front page of

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Speaker 1: the newspaper. You're right, You've really figured me out, Caroline.

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Speaker 1: I want to be on the front page of the newspapers. Dog,

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Speaker 1: it's I think they're overrated, not that I don't like them. Okay, anyway,

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Speaker 1: I will. I've weathered that before, I'll weather it again.

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Speaker 1: But that's how we're talking about today. What topic did

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Speaker 1: you bring for us to discuss today? We brought women

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Speaker 1: and a d h D. Soundly, you were answering a

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Speaker 1: trivia question that was wonderful. I'll take a d h

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Speaker 1: D for four hundred, Alex. I brought sad jokes that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and this is a topic that I know when I've

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Speaker 1: thought about things that I didn't understand or appreciate in

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Speaker 1: terms of becoming more feminist and understand things. That is

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Speaker 1: one where previous topics on this show that you two

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Speaker 1: did were about autism and and how women are under

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Speaker 1: diagnosed or often misunderstood in terms of that whole thing.

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Speaker 1: And that was just like such an eye opener for me.

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Speaker 1: And I personally have friends who are women and who

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Speaker 1: were diagnosed with a d h D as adults, and

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Speaker 1: they've told me how much of a relief it was

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Speaker 1: and how much it's changed their life. And they didn't know,

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Speaker 1: they just assumed that that wasn't something that women adults

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Speaker 1: dealt with and especially women dealt with right. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: we put out a graphic on social media that was

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Speaker 1: a quote from a listener who basically said that she

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Speaker 1: had realized that all of the A d h D

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Speaker 1: symptoms that she had been reading about um were things

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Speaker 1: that she was also dealing with, and she connected the

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Speaker 1: dots and anyway, we put that on on social and

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Speaker 1: the response annie was really similar. It was just overwhelming

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Speaker 1: with adults, adult, grown as folks being like, I always

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Speaker 1: thought I was lazy or I just thought I couldn't

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Speaker 1: get my together, and it turns out that my brain

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Speaker 1: is just different and I've been able to get help

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Speaker 1: or I've been able to find ways to deal with

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Speaker 1: this A d h D and I am just so

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Speaker 1: relieved and validated. But there was also a big undertone

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Speaker 1: of I'm I'm relieved now and I'm grateful now for

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Speaker 1: this diagnosis, but I am also so sad for that

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Speaker 1: young girl who didn't know what was wrong and just

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Speaker 1: thought it must be me. It's my fault, I'm stupid, bad, lazy, whatever. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the response that we got to just that Instagram post

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Speaker 1: told us that, Okay, we probably need to make this episode,

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Speaker 1: and once we started going through like listener requests in

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Speaker 1: our unlady like email inbox. It turns out that a

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Speaker 1: d h D is one of, if not the most

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Speaker 1: requested topic that we've gotten. And I'm glad that you

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Speaker 1: mentioned autism any because there are a lot of like

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Speaker 1: diagnostic parallels in terms of there's that gender gap in

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Speaker 1: childhood where boys are much likelier to get diagnosed, and

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Speaker 1: like autism, a d h D was first like clinically

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Speaker 1: defined solely based on boy's behavior, and even though experts

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Speaker 1: have started catching up to oh yeah, this happens for

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Speaker 1: girls too, there's still a gender gap. And also that means, like,

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Speaker 1: if you just think generationally, there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: like millennial women who were totally overlooked as kids who

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Speaker 1: are just now starting to find diagnoses UM in their

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Speaker 1: thirties and even forties. So quickly, can we backtry, because

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Speaker 1: we definitely jumped into it, But just to kind of

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Speaker 1: give a grounding, can you give us a definition of

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Speaker 1: what a d D actually is. Yeah, So a h

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Speaker 1: D is attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and it's a neurodevelopmental disorder.

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Speaker 1: It's also been described as a disorder of executive function UM.

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Speaker 1: It has many names and many descriptions, but it is

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Speaker 1: basically just a different way of brains being wired, and

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Speaker 1: it can manifest in a couple of different ways. So

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Speaker 1: you've got the stereotypical hyperactive impulsive. That's the usually what's

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Speaker 1: associated with the stereotypical like boy a d h D behavior,

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Speaker 1: So like not being able to sit still, You're gonna

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Speaker 1: climb every tree, you probably can't focus in class um,

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Speaker 1: your fidgety. There's also the inattentive type a d h D,

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Speaker 1: which is typically more often diagnosed in girls. But this

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Speaker 1: is the quieter, more overlooked type. It could look like

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Speaker 1: day dreaminess, spacing out, you know, and because of it's

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Speaker 1: more like quiet internal nature, it is easy to overlook

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Speaker 1: and it is easy to just dismiss girls with it

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Speaker 1: as being like, oh, you're just some like space cadet dibts.

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Speaker 1: And then the third type is a combo. It's a

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Speaker 1: swirl and it's just a mix of that inattentive and

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Speaker 1: hyperactive impulsive. And one way that a listener described it

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Speaker 1: to us is that you have the part of your

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Speaker 1: brain that knows kind of what you need to get done,

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Speaker 1: and then the part of your brain that can like

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Speaker 1: actually accomplish things, and there's basically with a d h

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Speaker 1: D there's a communication breakdown in turn terms of sort

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Speaker 1: of that emotional regulation and essentially making that conversion from

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Speaker 1: what you need to do to actually doing and staying

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Speaker 1: focused and motivated. But even as I'm describing this, I

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Speaker 1: I don't want to put it too much in terms

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Speaker 1: of just productivity and achievement, because that is that's another

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Speaker 1: wrinkle in the broader like a d h D conversation

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Speaker 1: and kind of like what really is the problem. Is

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Speaker 1: that the problem that like we we don't accept neurodiversity

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Speaker 1: and make room for neurodiversity in different kinds of brains

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Speaker 1: and how they work in our society. Or is this

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Speaker 1: a problem of like we expect people to be too

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Speaker 1: productive and stay on task all the time. Yeah, that's uh,

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Speaker 1: something that has been on my mind a lot, especially

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Speaker 1: during this quarantine, is this whole idea of productivity Because

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Speaker 1: I was sharing this story recently where I was like

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Speaker 1: laid out from my second dose of the vaccine and

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Speaker 1: yet I was working and proud of myself for it,

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Speaker 1: and then I had to stop and be like, wait,

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Speaker 1: that's real and healthy. Why are you just celebrating that

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Speaker 1: you're miserable and still working. That's not that's not good.

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Speaker 1: If I feel you though, I can relate to that

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Speaker 1: when I I had COVID, and the thing that made

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Speaker 1: me the most annoyed it was not the fact that

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Speaker 1: I had COVID, but that I couldn't get my work

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Speaker 1: done for a couple of weeks. And that was my

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Speaker 1: moment of like, oh my god, Okay, okay, come on

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Speaker 1: priority making this a line here. So I was wondering

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Speaker 1: if you have some history that you could give us,

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Speaker 1: because it does feel like historically it has been thought

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Speaker 1: to be this thing that it impacts mainly boys or men,

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Speaker 1: and now the conversation is kind of shifting. Well, I'm

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Speaker 1: glad you asked, Annie, because I think one of the

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Speaker 1: biggest myths out there about a d h D is

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Speaker 1: that it's some kind of new fangled phenomenon that is

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Speaker 1: just a product of too much screen time and social media.

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Speaker 1: Don't we all have a d h D these days?

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Speaker 1: But it is actually not new at all. These symptoms

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Speaker 1: have been described in clinical literature for roughly two hundred

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Speaker 1: years now. Yeah, and it obviously, not surprisingly has not

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Speaker 1: always been called a d h D. It's had a

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Speaker 1: bunch of different names as researchers have studied these issues

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Speaker 1: of attention and focus and motivation. But seventeen eighty seven

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Speaker 1: was the first time that we get a description of

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Speaker 1: a disorder that appears similar to a d h D.

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Speaker 1: And this was a Scottish doctor named Sir Alexander Creighton.

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Speaker 1: And to give you a hint as to how what

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Speaker 1: we call a d h D was viewed, he included

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Speaker 1: his findings in a book of research dedicated to quote

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Speaker 1: unquote mental derangement. So not always a great view of

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Speaker 1: people with different types of abilities to focus um on

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Speaker 1: a big like focus on neurodiversity. In seven but shocker

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Speaker 1: and what I love, Sir Crichton points out that in

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Speaker 1: some people, just about anything can distract them, almost to

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Speaker 1: the point of enraging them. And he says, they say

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Speaker 1: they have the fidget, and yeah, I was like, honestly,

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Speaker 1: that's like me all the time. And then I start

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Speaker 1: to think about that time that my therapist told me

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Speaker 1: on like our first or second session ever together, like

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Speaker 1: I think you have an undiagnosed attention issue. It's like

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Speaker 1: you got the fidgets, Caroline, I got the figets. Okay,

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Speaker 1: speaking of the fidgets, I'm so glad that we are

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Speaker 1: able to talk about a d h D with you

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Speaker 1: and get a little nerdy on the history because one

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Speaker 1: thing that we did not include in our episode d

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Speaker 1: there was this German doctor named Heinrich Hoffman who I

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Speaker 1: think his son had a d h D or you know,

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Speaker 1: something like it, and he ended up creating some illustrated

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Speaker 1: children's stories to like help kids, and he called the

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Speaker 1: main character fidgety Phil, and I just love that. I

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Speaker 1: also love that in German Fidgitty Phil's name was Zapple Philip. Yeah, honestly, like,

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Speaker 1: probably the funniest part is Kristen's accent when she says,

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Speaker 1: was apple ship up? That? That is probably the best part.

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Speaker 1: That's good. That's pretty good, pretty solid. So it was

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Speaker 1: two though, when things really start picking up in terms

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Speaker 1: of physicians and researchers really pinning down a d h D,

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Speaker 1: because that is when Sir George Frederick Still, who was

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Speaker 1: considered the father of British pediatrics, identified a d h

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Speaker 1: D as an abnormal defect of moral control in children.

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Speaker 1: So basically, if you can't as as a kid, if

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Speaker 1: you could not conform to this idea of the good

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Speaker 1: of all. If you couldn't assimilate, if you couldn't fit in, you,

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Speaker 1: you were considered a moral failure. And I think that

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Speaker 1: that really echoes into how people view folks with a

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Speaker 1: d h D, and it echoes in a lot of

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Speaker 1: the shame that people with a d h D have

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Speaker 1: reported feeling, because there was always this underlying moral component

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Speaker 1: of like, you aren't being productive enough, you aren't sitting

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Speaker 1: still and listening and doing your work and being mature.

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Speaker 1: We just don't know what to do with you. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And if we jump forward into more of the modern

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Speaker 1: understanding of a d h D, by the nineteen eighties,

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Speaker 1: researchers had pinned down like the three main symptoms that

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Speaker 1: we're talking about when we talk about a d h D,

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Speaker 1: which is that inattentiveness, impulsivity, and hyperactivity, which like we

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Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, can sort of mix up into different types

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Speaker 1: of cocktails that either lean more impulsive or inattentive or

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Speaker 1: the swirl Caroline mentioned the combination of both. But it

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Speaker 1: wasn't until the nineties the es that cases of childhood

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Speaker 1: a d h D really started climbing, and part of

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Speaker 1: this was because there were changes made in like the

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Speaker 1: public school system that finally classified a d h D

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Speaker 1: as a learning disability. So one of the reasons why

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Speaker 1: you started to see a lot more kids and specifically

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Speaker 1: boys getting diagnosed with a d h D at that

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Speaker 1: point was because teachers for the first time were really

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Speaker 1: paying closer attention to those symptoms, and the like education

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Speaker 1: laws were requiring schools to facilitate for that, so it

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Speaker 1: wasn't just like again, some kind of modern thing cooked

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Speaker 1: up by parents who just didn't want to discipline their

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Speaker 1: fidgety fills the fino running around, right, And I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: kind of because we are talking about what it looked

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Speaker 1: like in the nineties and how that quickly changed because

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Speaker 1: we started having a standard for the schools to provide

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Speaker 1: things like i p s or individualized education plans. And

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Speaker 1: for me, who has worked in the juvenile justice system,

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Speaker 1: I often never saw a d h D as part

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Speaker 1: of the diagnosis, but I often saw behavioral issues instead,

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Speaker 1: which was a misdiagnosis more oftentimes than not. So my

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Speaker 1: thought process with us in a question for you is

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Speaker 1: how do you see that translated for young girls? Because typically,

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Speaker 1: as I knew it and maybe I can answer my

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Speaker 1: own question, but do you see this as being where

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Speaker 1: we see young boys being told their behavioral issues they're

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Speaker 1: angry there too, out of control? That we see girls

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Speaker 1: somehow being sexualized in that diagnosis, So there are hyper

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Speaker 1: sexually active according to them, whether it's because they're flirty

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Speaker 1: or or it comes out to that. Did you research

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Speaker 1: that that was a proponent to when misdiagnosis for young

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Speaker 1: girls when it was a d D. That makes sense. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I I myself didn't come across anything specifically regarding

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Speaker 1: like hyper sexualization or interpreting behavior is hyper sexualized, but

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Speaker 1: we did find a couple of things that relate to

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Speaker 1: what you're talking about. So one, okay, that we're being

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Speaker 1: very binary and we're being very stereotypical here. I just

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Speaker 1: want to preface what I'm about to say with that.

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Speaker 1: So typically boys a d h D gets noticed sooner

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Speaker 1: and they get it addressed in the school sooner and

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Speaker 1: more effectively. And that's kind of because, as Kristen has said,

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Speaker 1: the squeaky wheel gets the riddle in so to speak,

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Speaker 1: because because they tend to exhibit the more stereotypical behaviors

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Speaker 1: right of the hyperactivity the inability to sit still, the

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Speaker 1: zapple Phillips of the world. Girls who perhaps are exhibiting

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Speaker 1: hyperactive behaviors, we'll exhibit some of the same behaviors as

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Speaker 1: the boys, the fidgeting, all of that, but it also

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Speaker 1: might manifest as being super talkative, being hyper emotional, things

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Speaker 1: that are written off as girls they're so hormonal. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, just girls being girls in a very sexist

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Speaker 1: binary kind of way. And girls are already more likely

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Speaker 1: to be held back in school than boys are. And

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Speaker 1: so if they have the inattentive type of a d

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Speaker 1: h D, rather than a teacher going huh, she's staring

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Speaker 1: out the window all day, or huh she forgot to

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Speaker 1: take notes today, rather than thinking she might have a

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Speaker 1: d h D or she might have a learning disability

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Speaker 1: or anything like that, that should be addressed, that girl

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Speaker 1: is more likely to be held back. You layer that

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Speaker 1: on top of a racial situation where black girls in

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Speaker 1: our schools are already more likely to be adultified, criminalized,

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Speaker 1: and pushed out of school. And yeah, you you do

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Speaker 1: have a recipe for for disaster when it comes to

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Speaker 1: two girls in school with a d h D. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think it's worth noting at this point that in

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Speaker 1: terms of the clinical research and public awareness around a

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Speaker 1: d h D, it seems like since the early two

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Speaker 1: thousands we've started catching up on the gender piece, because

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Speaker 1: in fact, the first long term study of girls with

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Speaker 1: a d h D was not published until two thousand two,

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Speaker 1: which is pretty astonishing, so we are starting to make

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Speaker 1: progress in that. However, there are so many other, like

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Speaker 1: intersectional layers to this issue that still we still have

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Speaker 1: a long way to go on that because on piece

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Speaker 1: that we read underscored that, regardless of gender, white English

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Speaker 1: speaking students in US classrooms are the ones who are

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Speaker 1: far in a way likelier to not only be diagnosed

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Speaker 1: with a d h D, but also treated with a

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Speaker 1: d h D. Whereas, and this gets back to what

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Speaker 1: you've observed, Samantha, I think that students of color, again,

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Speaker 1: regardless of gender, their quote unquote problematic behavior in the

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Speaker 1: classroom is likelier to be written off as behavioral problems.

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Speaker 1: And that also goes back to this old school moralizing

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Speaker 1: of oh, you know, this isn't this isn't an issue

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Speaker 1: with their brain. It's just, you know, an absence of

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Speaker 1: self discipline and they just don't want to behave right,

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Speaker 1: and that's I have so many follow up questions to that,

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Speaker 1: but um, that has been something on my mind is

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Speaker 1: sort of morality we've put on projectivity, especially in this country.

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Speaker 1: And before we started recording, we were joking about Samantha

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Speaker 1: was joking about feeling like an abject failure, and actually

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Speaker 1: that is the first episode we did together was called

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Speaker 1: are We Failures? And I think throughout this I've been

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Speaker 1: picking up on words that you, Kristen and Caroline have

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Speaker 1: been using when it comes to this that are just

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Speaker 1: like these really negative self talk words like you are

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Speaker 1: lazy or you're being immoral and really turning it back

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Speaker 1: in on yourself. And in my personal anecdotal experience, one

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Speaker 1: of my brothers, my mom like recently told me, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think he's somewhere on the spectrum, which again we're

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Speaker 1: talking about a d h D but similarly, but my

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Speaker 1: dad didn't want him to get tested because the stigma

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Speaker 1: was so much that he was like, I don't even

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Speaker 1: want him to think that they could impact him that much.

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Speaker 1: And that's how much this stigment was and how much

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Speaker 1: that has impacted is life. So through that, like all

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Speaker 1: of that said, when we're talking about this, and we're

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Speaker 1: talking about it for women, where it has been sort

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Speaker 1: of women and girls seen as not often an option

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Speaker 1: when it comes to diagnosis, like that can't be the case.

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Speaker 1: It's just that they're just being girls or whatever it is. Um,

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Speaker 1: have you seen kind of a gendered aspect or through

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Speaker 1: your research or through listeners when it comes to that

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Speaker 1: sort of real negative self talk and reflection. Yeah, we've

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Speaker 1: definitely noticed something along those lines. So basically, the research

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Speaker 1: bears out what you're suspecting. Annie, Women and girls are

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Speaker 1: much more likely to internalize they're a d h D.

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Speaker 1: And I'm using a d h D here as sort

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Speaker 1: of an umbrella term for everything that comes along with

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Speaker 1: it as well. They internalize what they perceive as their

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Speaker 1: failings and their failures. Um, they internalize the ways at

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Speaker 1: it makes them feel. So a lot of times what

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Speaker 1: comes along with being a girl or a woman who

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Speaker 1: has a d h D is a sense of perfectionism

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Speaker 1: and striving because you're trying to mask you're perceived quote

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Speaker 1: unquote failures. You go into overdrive hyperdrive. You're trying to

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Speaker 1: work all the time, You're trying to bake all the cupcakes,

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Speaker 1: and you know whatever whatever the case is. Girls and

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Speaker 1: women with a d h D are also more likely

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Speaker 1: to struggle with mood disorders substance abuse. And there's that

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Speaker 1: gray area in diagnosis and in symptoms where a d

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Speaker 1: h D can be conflated with anxiety and depression and

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Speaker 1: other mood disorders. And it's it's not that the person

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Speaker 1: in question doesn't have angs, itty or depression, but it's

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Speaker 1: that based on their life experiences with a d h D,

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Speaker 1: they might then experience anxiety and depression. They might feel isolated,

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Speaker 1: they might, you know, feel that like self loathing kind

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Speaker 1: of feeling. But when you go to the doctor, the psychologist,

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Speaker 1: the therapist, the psychiatrist, like you would hope you would

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Speaker 1: get the correct diagnosis to get the best, most effective help.

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Speaker 1: But a lot of times what we see is the

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Speaker 1: anxiety gets treated or the depression gets called out, but

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Speaker 1: the a d h D is just still sort of

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Speaker 1: back here, lingering in the background. And that's kind of

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Speaker 1: related to like why I said earlier. You know, my

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Speaker 1: therapist was like, I think you have an undiagnosed attention

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Speaker 1: issue because I started taking well Beautren years ago for depression.

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Speaker 1: Because it's an antidepressant, it also so happens that will

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Speaker 1: beutron works on the same neurotransmitters that are at play

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Speaker 1: in a d h D. And so when I started

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Speaker 1: popping well beutron, I was like, oh my god, I

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Speaker 1: can read a book and focus and sit down and

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Speaker 1: do my work. And so this is a very kind

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Speaker 1: of short story long situation, but it was one of

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Speaker 1: those moments where I was like, I had really been

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Speaker 1: kicking myself for my inability to focus, and then once

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Speaker 1: I felt like I could focus, I felt like I

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Speaker 1: also had more value. And it's just you can see

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Speaker 1: how that kind of stuff can spiral out, all right.

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Speaker 1: And to add to all of that, I would assume

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Speaker 1: because as we've had many conversations, in general, women are

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Speaker 1: not believed that there is anything to be diagnosed and

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00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 1: or there is something to be treated, and we have

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00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,640
Speaker 1: to have that conversation whether it is again there may

406
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 1: be like multiple diagnosis that we're not looking at and

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00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 1: we're not treating, or we're looking at one aspect which

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00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,359
Speaker 1: is the bigger picture, and we're only treating a small

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00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 1: part of the symptom and not the whole picture, which

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00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,919
Speaker 1: is that whole general questions like who is actually being

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Speaker 1: treated appropriately and not only appropriately being heard, because I

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Speaker 1: know with my own mental health stuff when I was

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Speaker 1: going to a psychiatrist, and we know in Atlanta and

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00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:09,239
Speaker 1: Georgia the practices that a psychiatrist can prescribe medication, a

415
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 1: doctor can prescribe medication, but a therapist and a psychologist cannot.

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00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 1: It has to be a separate practice. A whole different

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Speaker 1: story and my interactions, which both of them were men,

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Speaker 1: but the first one was so dismissive of everything I

419
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,120
Speaker 1: said that it literally I had to paint a path

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Speaker 1: of like it, just give me this drug, please, like this.

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Speaker 1: I literally had to come back and researching myself because

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Speaker 1: his whole response was well, I mean, we could try

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Speaker 1: this one. If it doesn't worry, we'll try this one.

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Speaker 1: It literally was just throwing what was stick, you know,

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Speaker 1: to me, and I was like, all right, fine, let's

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00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 1: try let's try it this way. And of course, to

427
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 1: say I complained about him, I definitely did. But it's

428
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 1: kind of that experience in itself, just being treated as

429
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 1: if everything I say it's just like, but are you okay? Fine,

430
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 1: I'll give it to you because you're asking for it

431
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 1: and you're gonna bother me which I feel like maybe

432
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 1: a lot of women's experiences in general. Yeah, this is

433
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 1: reminding me of a letter that we got from a listener.

434
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 1: Who is she. You would probably describe her as high

435
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 1: functioning um she because of that masking and striving and overachieving.

436
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 1: She always did really well in school. But the older

437
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 1: that she got, and you see this often with undiagnosed

438
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: a d she the older you get, the harder all

439
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 1: of that masking becomes because typically, like you're just day

440
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: to day life responsibilities increase, so things like messiness, organization,

441
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 1: being on time, like just the basic functions, not to

442
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 1: mention like trying to complete bigger projects just become these

443
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 1: insurmountable hurdles. And she for years suspected that she had

444
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 1: undiagnosed a d h D, but she was scared to

445
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 1: get tested because she was worried that a doctor was

446
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 1: going to tell her. She was just trying to find

447
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 1: an excuse for not working hard enough. And part of that,

448
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 1: I think is is the internalized like productivity and hustle culture,

449
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 1: but also it is a byproduct of the gender stereotyping

450
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 1: of a d h D as like the disruptive boy

451
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 1: kind of thing and it was just it was so

452
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 1: poignant to read that of that fear of oh my god,

453
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 1: well maybe almost gaslighting herself, you know what I mean

454
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 1: of like maybe maybe I'm maybe I'm just making this up.

455
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm just making this up, because what are we

456
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 1: The way that a lot of us are raised too

457
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,959
Speaker 1: is like just apply yourself. Practice makes perfect, and you

458
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: try as hard as you can, and that's the way

459
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 1: that you can succeed. In heavy air quotes, but that

460
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 1: is not really the case a lot of times. We

461
00:30:53,920 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 1: also heard from a woman who was diagnosed after her

462
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 1: son got diagnosed, and that's a super common pattern for

463
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 1: women as well. Moms a lot of times will be

464
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 1: diagnosed after their kids are because they see the diagnostic

465
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 1: criteria and they're like, oh uh, I think that's me. Also,

466
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 1: a d h D is highly heritable, but she also

467
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: has bipolar disorder, and she said it took six different

468
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 1: doctors for her to finally find someone who could distinguish

469
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: the bipolar symptoms from the d D. So a lot

470
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 1: of times like those those pre existing mood disorders. First

471
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 1: of all, those are gendered right as more like female.

472
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 1: We're like, oh yeah, anxious women sure have all the

473
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 1: medication UM and those symptoms can UM. It's almost like

474
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 1: they camouflage at least two clinicians the d D. So

475
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: it was a major struggle for her. But finally, you know,

476
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 1: she got the diagnosis and it was it was a

477
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 1: game changer. Yeah, that's when I've talked to my friends

478
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 1: about this. They've said, like the power of just naming it,

479
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 1: like that relief of just like bringing to tears of

480
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 1: changing Oh wow, I wasn't just like yeah, that gaslighting

481
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:30,959
Speaker 1: of yourself. This was a thing finally, And when it

482
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:36,719
Speaker 1: comes to this gendering aspect, I know that there's been

483
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 1: a lot of recent research, not not a lot in

484
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 1: the history, but a lot of recent research into that

485
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 1: whole camouflaging aspect, and like societally, are women and girls

486
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: just taught at least as part of this puzzle to

487
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 1: be more like smaller and hide those kinds of things

488
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 1: and those masking aspects. And my friends they've talked to

489
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 1: me about that too, and how exhausting that was. So

490
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 1: in terms of the gendering of this, like are there

491
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 1: are there other aspects UM where it presents differently in

492
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 1: men and women? But also just have you through your

493
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 1: research why was it? I mean, I think I know

494
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 1: an answer, but why was it? Like seeing as oh,

495
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 1: this is a boy's problem and not a girl's problem,

496
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 1: and yeah, just different ways you think that men and

497
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 1: women deal with it. As for why it's seen as

498
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: a boy thing to begin with, or why it has

499
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 1: been historically, truly the diagnosis was based on boy's behavior.

500
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 1: They weren't really studying girls. Shocker, like they still don't

501
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 1: study girls and women enough, you know. And I do wonder.

502
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 1: Part of me wonders, like, as I was reading the

503
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 1: histories and reading the research, part of me wonders if, like, yes,

504
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 1: there was always that tendency to study boys and men

505
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 1: more than girls and women. But also I do wonder

506
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 1: if part of the concern was like, we need our

507
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 1: boys to grow up and be you know, mature men

508
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 1: who can contribute to this capitalist society and keep the

509
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 1: patriarchy rolling smoothly, um, you know, versus women where it's like, well,

510
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 1: if she's like uh flippity gibbet, I'm trying to find

511
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: a contemporary term, you know, if she if she's a

512
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 1: space cadet who can't focus, Like, who cares? She's just

513
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,839
Speaker 1: going to be at home with the kids, right that

514
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,919
Speaker 1: that was always my sneaking suspicion of why, like there

515
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 1: was rarely any concern about whether and how these attention

516
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:52,800
Speaker 1: issues would manifest in girls and women. And I wonder

517
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 1: too if it has a lot of the conversation we're

518
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:58,240
Speaker 1: talking about masking, and we're talking about gas lighting yourself

519
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:00,359
Speaker 1: and performing, making sure you have to perform, that you're

520
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,840
Speaker 1: on top of things we're taught as young girls, especially

521
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,399
Speaker 1: if you're taught to be this gendered girl, to make

522
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 1: sure that you can care for yourself, as we've talked

523
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: about previously, And we want to dig more into about

524
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 1: what it looks like when we parentify young girls and

525
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 1: how that really negatively affects them later in life. But

526
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 1: a part of that is we already have our handful

527
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 1: with the young boys, and we knew that was going

528
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 1: to happen. Young girls need to mind their place and

529
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:28,280
Speaker 1: be quiet. And when you become teenagers and you become

530
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 1: a sexual figure, then we'll worry about you because we

531
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:35,280
Speaker 1: want to control the body as opposed to the behavior

532
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 1: and or what you could grow up to be. I

533
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 1: guess that's a whole different conversation once again, but we're

534
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:44,760
Speaker 1: taught so young to play the perfect child, to play

535
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 1: the perfect girl, to play the future wife of so

536
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 1: and so. I mean, that's kind of what you're inundated with.

537
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 1: Are you so excited? You know, the whole conversation about

538
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 1: you want a husband like your daddy, that weird, weird

539
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 1: like momm ng a young that they want to do

540
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,919
Speaker 1: this so badly and to prove that that young girl

541
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 1: is going to be a great mom or whatever whatnot.

542
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: And part of that lesson is hide all of your

543
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 1: problems and be perfect. Yeah, I mean that drives the

544
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:18,239
Speaker 1: masking right of like men I think generally have more

545
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 1: room to be fidgety. Essentially, I'll use that as like

546
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 1: a stand in it's a Zapple Phillip's world. Yeah, it is.

547
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 1: We we it's Zapple Phillip's world and we're just living

548
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:33,399
Speaker 1: in it. And I think girls and women are You're right,

549
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 1: they're expected to be proper little ladies and handle themselves.

550
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 1: And one of the reasons why so many women get

551
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,280
Speaker 1: diagnosed in their thirties and even their forties is because

552
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 1: that's also the age at which, like, if you're going

553
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 1: to have kids, you're you're typically having those kids and

554
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 1: managing their schedules in your thirties and forties, and the

555
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 1: wheels fall off for lack of Yeah, I mean, that

556
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 1: really was the pattern that we heard from listener after

557
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 1: listener of striving and overcompensating growing up with undiagnosed a

558
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 1: d h D. Hitting a breaking point that's usually triggered

559
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 1: by things like like we heard from people who were

560
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 1: diagnosed in grad school, we're going through like big career changes,

561
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 1: they become parents, like these these big pivotal moments where

562
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:33,280
Speaker 1: suddenly like things become too much, the wheels fall off,

563
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 1: they're essentially forced to finally seek help. And then because

564
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 1: there is just so much emotional build up in so

565
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 1: many years of internalizing all of this quote unquote failure

566
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 1: that when a doctor tells them, oh, it's not you're

567
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 1: not just inherently a hot mess. It's actually a d

568
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 1: h D. It is so like life changing was a

569
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 1: word that came up over over again, and so that

570
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 1: that was another reason why we wanted to spend an

571
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 1: episode on It was like, Okay, these are We're hearing

572
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 1: from women who do not know each other, from all

573
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,839
Speaker 1: different walks of life, who are all somehow following this

574
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 1: the same kind of pattern. And it's not even taking

575
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 1: into account of course, like the the socioeconomics too, that

576
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 1: it takes to be able to even seek out treatment,

577
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 1: get testing, and then get either medication or some kind

578
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:34,840
Speaker 1: of help for managing those symptoms. Stay today. But Caroline

579
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:40,960
Speaker 1: and I were talking about the the ways that it

580
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 1: seems like, you know, adult men, Yes, I'm sure they

581
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 1: also struggle with with a d h D, but that

582
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 1: pattern of like the wheels falling off and hitting your

583
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 1: breaking point just seems so particularly gender to women. And

584
00:38:57,800 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 1: I just asked Caroline, I was like, I think may

585
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 1: be the cure for adult a d h D. It's

586
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,839
Speaker 1: not you're adderall or vivants of course, and also side notes,

587
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 1: stimulants are not a cure. But maybe he's just having

588
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 1: a housewife, you know, I mean because also like not

589
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 1: also not to turn all all men with a d

590
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:21,360
Speaker 1: h D into some like cis hit like monolith. But

591
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 1: I mean, like what our housewives there for. They keep

592
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 1: things clean, they keep things tidy, they keep keep the

593
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:33,239
Speaker 1: household moving on time. They're doing like all of all

594
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:34,800
Speaker 1: of them trying to pick it up all the slack.

595
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:39,720
Speaker 1: And we're talking a lot recently about how that type

596
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 1: of possession of person who is a wife as well

597
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 1: as a mother as well as a professional being and

598
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:49,719
Speaker 1: quarantine and how it's like tripled their workload. Could you

599
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,319
Speaker 1: imagine having an undiagnosed a d h D on top

600
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 1: about not realizing how awful this is and having to

601
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 1: be in such a containment and where you were expected

602
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,279
Speaker 1: to be the perfect wife and to handle everything, but

603
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 1: also not to have that breakdown and I go and

604
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 1: not really having to access to get diagnosed, and everything

605
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 1: seems like it's just falling apart, Like I'm just my

606
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 1: mind is just reeling at that whole concept, because yeah,

607
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 1: I mean, if someone could take a part of my

608
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,360
Speaker 1: load off, that's phenomenal. I will say, if it wasn't

609
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:22,479
Speaker 1: for any being on this show with me, I would

610
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 1: probably have quit a long time ago. She's my she's

611
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 1: my wife essentially when it comes to taking this, you know,

612
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 1: a big chunk of it, which I'm sorry that which

613
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 1: probably is again not so good for her for her,

614
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 1: but that conversation, the whole bigger conversation of what it

615
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 1: looks like when you have assistance and it may not

616
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,400
Speaker 1: be the same as treatment, but there is that alleviation

617
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 1: of like taking part of that symptom of some ofo's

618
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 1: responsibilities off your plate, and so you're kind of like, oh,

619
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 1: it's manageable now maybe I'm okay, mm hmmmmmmm. And I

620
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 1: do think that we should mention the the silver linings

621
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 1: that we also heard from folks, because a lot of

622
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 1: people we heard from who had been diagnosed also said

623
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:14,799
Speaker 1: that getting that diagnosis was a breakthrough for allowing them

624
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 1: to also appreciate their own neurodiversity and how they were wired.

625
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,880
Speaker 1: So like one listener mentioned that with her a d

626
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 1: h D, she's very chatty, and she was like this,

627
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,319
Speaker 1: this was a problem for me as a kid, but

628
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 1: now I I actually see it as a way that

629
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 1: like people are drawn to me because of that, Like

630
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 1: I'll talk to anybody. We heard from other folks who

631
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 1: said that they now recognize how they're a d h

632
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 1: D and sort of like the hyper focus and um

633
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 1: it's called time blindness that can happen where they get

634
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 1: so sucked into something can actually be like a really

635
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 1: powerful tool for their creativity. They've just had now to

636
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 1: learn how to like kind of build structures around that

637
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 1: so that they can actually stay on track with things.

638
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,840
Speaker 1: So some of the controversy and debates around a d

639
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 1: h D and oh is it being overdiagnosed? I think

640
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:09,880
Speaker 1: speaks to a bigger conversations that need to be had

641
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 1: around neurodiversity and like what is quote unquote normal functioning?

642
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 1: And then then again that's another question I had when

643
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:26,320
Speaker 1: it comes to the level of functioning a spectrum, because

644
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 1: I think it's appropriate to say that as we look

645
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 1: more and more into diagnosis like these, it becomes understandable

646
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 1: that there's different levels and when we treat it as

647
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 1: it it's just the checklist, then we're gonna miss a

648
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:41,840
Speaker 1: lot and we'rena misdiagnosed a lot. For women, has it

649
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 1: come to the point that they are being appropriately a

650
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 1: being diagnosed and appropriately on a spectrum of how to

651
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:53,360
Speaker 1: do the treatment actually getting a treatment to their needs Again,

652
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 1: so maybe some people don't need those medications, Maybe some

653
00:42:56,600 --> 00:43:00,400
Speaker 1: people need to have a therapy level of treatment. Is

654
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,279
Speaker 1: that happening or is it being just dismissed kind of

655
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 1: like in the nineties where they were just kind of

656
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:06,879
Speaker 1: throwing out those pills and be like, Okay, we're gonna

657
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:09,879
Speaker 1: give you this diagnosed. Hopefully this will help you has

658
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 1: that changed and for women hasn't been appropriate to how

659
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 1: they are being diagnosed. That's a really good question. I mean,

660
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:22,919
Speaker 1: I would say the answer is probably no, because even

661
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:26,800
Speaker 1: though the the A d h D like diagnosis, gender

662
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 1: gap is much wider between boys and girls than it

663
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 1: is between adult men and women, So in other words,

664
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 1: like women start kind of catching up to two men

665
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:42,800
Speaker 1: in a way. But honestly, I don't know that folks

666
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:47,800
Speaker 1: have spent really even enough time focusing on that research

667
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 1: because also up until Caroline one was it was it

668
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:56,359
Speaker 1: in the twenty tens maybe or in the late two thousands,

669
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 1: that even the concept of adult a d h D

670
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 1: is controversial in some clinical circles. So even the idea

671
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 1: of getting diagnosed as an adult um is a relatively

672
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:16,759
Speaker 1: new phenomenon. So yeah, yeah, I think it was classified

673
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:24,799
Speaker 1: as like a childhood disorder until relatively recently, which is

674
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 1: another part of the puzzle as to why it can

675
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:32,399
Speaker 1: be so hard to get a diagnosis, but be even

676
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:37,239
Speaker 1: before that, like even really considerate for yourself because it

677
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 1: is just it's gendered and it is also linked with kids,

678
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:47,319
Speaker 1: and the fact that it's been so moralized as like

679
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 1: this is something that kids have like bad kids, and

680
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 1: that you're supposed to grow out of it to be

681
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:58,360
Speaker 1: like a functioning member of society. I think it makes

682
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 1: people feel like this is my fault. I also can't

683
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 1: speak to you know, whether girls and women are more

684
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 1: likely than they used to be to get appropriate treatment.

685
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 1: But Kristen did find some statistics around more women getting

686
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 1: stimulant prescriptions. But that's Risen. Yeah, for better or for worse.

687
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:27,239
Speaker 1: Across the board for treating a d h D medically,

688
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 1: stimulants are the go to so your riddling adderall, vivants, etcetera.

689
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 1: And we could have a whole other conversation too about

690
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:41,360
Speaker 1: like the history of stimulants um and the fact that

691
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 1: adderall was originally developed as a weight loss drug. There's

692
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:50,240
Speaker 1: like a lot of problematic history there. And stimulants also

693
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 1: have high rates of abuse and misuse, I should say so. So,

694
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 1: so that's kind of its own can of worms, which

695
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:01,719
Speaker 1: makes it challenging for the fact that like that is

696
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:04,719
Speaker 1: the go to treatment. You go to a psychiatrist, they

697
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 1: write you a script and then you're fine, right, not

698
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:11,760
Speaker 1: so much so I would imagine that for the kinds

699
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 1: of a d h D. Coaching and the cognitive behavioral

700
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 1: therapy that is probably helpful because also remember that you

701
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 1: also a lot of times for about a third of

702
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:25,880
Speaker 1: of folks diagnosed with a d h D, they do

703
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:28,880
Speaker 1: have those comorbid mood disorders. So therapy is going to

704
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 1: be really helpful. And then you're going to run into

705
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:35,400
Speaker 1: just the classic issues of like who who can afford it?

706
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:38,799
Speaker 1: Does your health insurance cover it? Like, so, I don't

707
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:44,440
Speaker 1: know how much those needs are being met, but according

708
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 1: to the c d C between two thousand five and

709
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 1: there was a seven hundred percent increase in a d

710
00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:02,239
Speaker 1: h D drug prescriptions for women between nine that's a

711
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 1: lot of numbers to say we're getting to prescribed stimulants,

712
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 1: that's for sure. And um, the handwringing that came along

713
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:16,719
Speaker 1: with that is the question of, oh, well, if you're

714
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:19,920
Speaker 1: taking stimulants and you get pregnant, is that going to

715
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 1: endanger the pregnancy. So that's just another hurdle as well

716
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:29,360
Speaker 1: that people without uterus is an a d h D

717
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:34,319
Speaker 1: don't have to deal with. And recently on Lady Likes Instagram,

718
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 1: we had a post asking about the best response to

719
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 1: people who are like, when are you going to have kids?

720
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 1: And one of the folks answered, like, when I can

721
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:49,800
Speaker 1: treat my A d h D safely and still get pregnant.

722
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, yeah, you're right, You're right.

723
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 1: So there's just it's not a simple answer, no, And

724
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 1: I think throughout this conversation, we've just seen so many

725
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:06,400
Speaker 1: elements that you can't separate out of, like yes, dismissing

726
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 1: women when they say I'm dealing with this, how women

727
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:15,279
Speaker 1: often internalize those kinds of things, and this history of

728
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 1: not studying women in any like for medicinally, and and

729
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:26,239
Speaker 1: also mental health dismissal, and this whole idea of like

730
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:31,200
Speaker 1: being that productivity is a moral thing, and that's all

731
00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:34,920
Speaker 1: a part of this conversation we're having. That does make

732
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:39,880
Speaker 1: it very complicated, and it hearing stories from friends of

733
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:43,520
Speaker 1: mine and um listeners of yours of just the power

734
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 1: of that like feeling so isolated and dismissed, and then

735
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:54,880
Speaker 1: the power of getting that diagnosis and how important it is. UM,

736
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:57,880
Speaker 1: that's why this conversation is an important one to have.

737
00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:00,880
Speaker 1: And it's weird, and well, it's not weird. It's sad

738
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 1: that the conversation and studies are like, yeah, the twenty

739
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:06,359
Speaker 1: tns and I'm like, I want to throw something out

740
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:13,200
Speaker 1: a window. I don't know if you have any resources

741
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:15,800
Speaker 1: that you want to shout out or anything for listeners

742
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:19,319
Speaker 1: if they want to learn more, perhaps too that I

743
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:22,400
Speaker 1: would recommend checking out. So these are both people I

744
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 1: follow on Twitter. One is Danny Donovan. She is a

745
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm laughing. I just I'm thinking of

746
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:33,239
Speaker 1: her cartoons. She has a cartoonist with a d h C,

747
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:36,479
Speaker 1: and she started illustrating some of her experiences. She also

748
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 1: does a bunch of TikTok's slash reels. I'm not sure which,

749
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 1: but she really breaks down what it's like to live

750
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:48,480
Speaker 1: with a d h D and very hopefully she doesn't

751
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:53,280
Speaker 1: try to paint it as all like rainbows and silver linings,

752
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 1: because it's not all rainbows and silver linings. Very recently

753
00:49:56,760 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 1: she countered this guy who had put out a bunch

754
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 1: of like TikTok's where he was like, you're a failure

755
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 1: if you don't see and use your A d h

756
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 1: D as a superpower, Like it's gonna let you multitask

757
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:17,760
Speaker 1: and think about all new sorts of stuff, and like

758
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:21,040
Speaker 1: it's your fault if you're not using your A d

759
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:24,560
Speaker 1: h D better, And of course she drops some really

760
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 1: genius counters to that of like, my a d h

761
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 1: D really my life up a lot like day in

762
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 1: your lanes, Apple, Philip. And I think that that really

763
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:44,279
Speaker 1: sums up to a lot of the the tweet discourse

764
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:48,040
Speaker 1: that's happening right now, that there's this urgency for a

765
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:49,799
Speaker 1: lot of people to be like, a d h D

766
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:52,600
Speaker 1: is awesome. I'm creative because of my a d h D.

767
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:55,719
Speaker 1: And and I find that to be an interesting correction

768
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:58,400
Speaker 1: from our past where we've come from, of a d

769
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:02,839
Speaker 1: h D being this like moral lies, you know, dismissed

770
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 1: kind of thing. And I so I can appreciate the

771
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:08,880
Speaker 1: instinct to do that, but in doing so, folks like

772
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:13,920
Speaker 1: Danny Donovan are pointing out like, yeah, okay, Like it

773
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 1: can be great to appreciate neurodiversity, obviously, but a d

774
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:24,520
Speaker 1: h D itself is not a solution to your life's problems.

775
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:27,840
Speaker 1: In fact, it creates many problems. Um. The other resource

776
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:33,440
Speaker 1: and voice I would shout out is Renee Brooks Black

777
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:37,360
Speaker 1: Girl Lost Keys is her social media presence, her blog

778
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:40,040
Speaker 1: presence um and she so she writes a lot about

779
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 1: those intersecting layers of being a black woman dealing with

780
00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:46,600
Speaker 1: a d h D on top of all of the

781
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:50,319
Speaker 1: symptoms and everything that comes along with it awesome. And

782
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:55,120
Speaker 1: then of course over on On On Ladylike you the whole

783
00:51:55,120 --> 00:52:00,799
Speaker 1: episode on this and as this this episode comes out,

784
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:04,880
Speaker 1: the episode on on Ladylike should be coming out around

785
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:10,480
Speaker 1: the same time. Yes, Yes, podcast magic. Yeah, and what

786
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:12,719
Speaker 1: we we did see a little different too with that

787
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:18,400
Speaker 1: episode where it's really driven by the voices of those

788
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:23,840
Speaker 1: listeners that we've heard from, um really just following that

789
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 1: experience of growing up, striving, hitting the breaking point and

790
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:35,480
Speaker 1: then having that breakthrough moment and what that what that

791
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:40,600
Speaker 1: tends to look like. So I'm really excited to hear

792
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:44,200
Speaker 1: from folks once we published that episode, because I mean,

793
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:46,200
Speaker 1: clearly there's still a lot that we don't know. And

794
00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:49,640
Speaker 1: also again like definitely definitely check out Black Girl, Lost

795
00:52:49,719 --> 00:52:53,959
Speaker 1: Keys and Renee Brooks's work because the aspects of like race,

796
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 1: ethnicity and socio economics is still one that is sorely

797
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:01,200
Speaker 1: lacking in the current at research and I'm hoping that

798
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:04,239
Speaker 1: that's kind of the next the next wave. Um, so

799
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:08,319
Speaker 1: she is a great resource on on that. Is there

800
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:11,279
Speaker 1: anything else that you wanted to add before we do

801
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:13,759
Speaker 1: some shout ups and wrap up. Do you want a

802
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:18,960
Speaker 1: fun fact? Always? Do you not know about my my

803
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:22,160
Speaker 1: fun fact episode over on Thirteen Days of Halloween where

804
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:27,160
Speaker 1: I basically came out firmly in the stance that icebreakers

805
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:33,960
Speaker 1: are terrifying and they're the source of horror. But yes, agree, Um, okay,

806
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 1: So I have I have a fun fact about Riddling

807
00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:41,319
Speaker 1: that we were not able to get into the unladylike episode,

808
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:45,040
Speaker 1: and maybe it will delight y'all as much as it

809
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:51,919
Speaker 1: delighted me. So, Samantha and Annie, did you know that

810
00:53:54,480 --> 00:54:01,480
Speaker 1: a chemist named Leandro Panizone first sin the size the

811
00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 1: stimulant that would be branded Riddlin, and that the name

812
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:17,560
Speaker 1: Riddlin was an homage to his wife Rita, And apparently

813
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 1: apparently Rita and Leandro loved taking Riddlin and playing tennis

814
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:29,560
Speaker 1: together and they were like amazing, So they have vitamin our? Yeah,

815
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:35,879
Speaker 1: old Rita. That was a real Ruler coaster. I thought

816
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:42,840
Speaker 1: it was gonna be like snake related. Yeah. I probably

817
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:46,640
Speaker 1: more intense wind up than it needed. It's like, I

818
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:49,120
Speaker 1: knew that you told me that before, but I too

819
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:54,560
Speaker 1: was like, what are we about to love? I love

820
00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:59,719
Speaker 1: talking about al Rita as we all should. Just s

821
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:03,439
Speaker 1: playing the tennis courts. Love it, winding up on those

822
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:08,520
Speaker 1: tennis courts, yes, indeed, winding up yes well. Thank you

823
00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:12,160
Speaker 1: both so much for being here. Always appreciate fun facts.

824
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:16,160
Speaker 1: Where can the good listeners find you and check out

825
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:19,000
Speaker 1: your upcoming episode on women in a d h D.

826
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:24,439
Speaker 1: We are on all the socials at Unladylike Media, so

827
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:27,279
Speaker 1: please hit us up, tag us, ask us your questions,

828
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:31,080
Speaker 1: all that good stuff, and you can email us at

829
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 1: hello at unladylike dot co oh and the episode you

830
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:38,719
Speaker 1: can find it anywhere that you can find your podcasts um.

831
00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:41,160
Speaker 1: You can also go over to our website which is

832
00:55:41,239 --> 00:55:46,279
Speaker 1: Unladylike dot ceo slash episodes. I like that you took

833
00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:51,800
Speaker 1: on a different accent and changing throughout sentence. It changed

834
00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:55,680
Speaker 1: animation in itself, is like we really tried it out

835
00:55:55,719 --> 00:55:58,080
Speaker 1: a lot of accents this episode. I'm proud of us, Caroline.

836
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:01,560
Speaker 1: I feel I feel like we're laying the Spiny legacy

837
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:04,319
Speaker 1: because we don't do all the accents, so Andy, you

838
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:06,680
Speaker 1: and I are gonna have to. I don't know if

839
00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 1: that's true. My accent I have two accents, que super cut,

840
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:21,360
Speaker 1: Yes Accent discussion table for now. Thank you both for

841
00:56:21,480 --> 00:56:25,920
Speaker 1: being here. Come back any time, Yes Listeners. If you

842
00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:27,799
Speaker 1: would like to contact us, you can email us at

843
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:30,120
Speaker 1: Stuff Idea, mom Stuff at ihart media dot com. You

844
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:32,000
Speaker 1: can find us on Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told

845
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:33,920
Speaker 1: You are on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks. It's

846
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:36,880
Speaker 1: always to our super producer Christina. Thank you Christina, and

847
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:39,000
Speaker 1: thanks you for listening Stuff I Never Told this production

848
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:40,719
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from I Heart

849
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:42,879
Speaker 1: Radio That I Heard Radio, app Apple podcast, or wherever

850
00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:44,080
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows