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Speaker 1: Before we begin this episode today, I want to mention

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Speaker 1: that this conversation covers kidnapping, sexual violence, and child abuse.

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Speaker 1: Please take care of yourself as you listen.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to she Pivots. I'm Elizabeth Smart.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to she Pivots, the podcast where women share

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Speaker 1: bold career moves and personal turning points that changed everything.

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Speaker 1: I'm your host to Emily Tish Sussman. In June two

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Speaker 1: thousand and two, a fourteen year old girl named Elizabeth

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Speaker 1: Smart was taken from her bedroom at knife point in

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Speaker 1: the middle of the night. Her disappearance became one of

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Speaker 1: the most closely followed child abduction cases in American history

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Speaker 1: and completely shifted the idea of safety for all Americans.

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Speaker 1: For nine months, she endured unimaginable abuse in captivity, and then,

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Speaker 1: against extraordinary odds, she was finally rescued. What happened to

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Speaker 1: her was just the beginning of her story. Because she

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Speaker 1: chose to use her experience to advocate for others. She's

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Speaker 1: testified before Congress to support child protection legislation, helped to

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Speaker 1: author a Department of Justice handbook for kidnapping survivors, and

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Speaker 1: worked as an ABC News commentator on missing persons cases. Today,

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth joins us to talk about what she went through,

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Speaker 1: how she survived it, how she healed from it, and

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Speaker 1: why she made the choice to step into the public

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Speaker 1: eye so that no one else would have to feel

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Speaker 1: as alone as she did. This is Elizabeth Smart, and

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Speaker 1: this is how she pivots. What is your name and

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Speaker 1: what do you do?

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Speaker 2: I'm Elizabeth Smart and I am a victim advocate. I

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Speaker 2: am a nonprofit founder. I've written books, I've epd documentaries,

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Speaker 2: and I have done my best to help see laws

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Speaker 2: be passed into effect successfully.

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Speaker 1: So now we'll go back. We'll go all the way back. Like,

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Speaker 1: tell us about little Elizabeth. What was your life like like?

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Speaker 1: You had a lot of siblings?

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Speaker 2: Yes, so growing up, I was number two of six kids.

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Speaker 2: I had four brothers and one sister.

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Speaker 1: Are you guys all close in age? So you kind

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Speaker 1: of played together?

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Speaker 2: The ages in my family span from I guess when

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Speaker 2: my youngest brother was born, so newborn baby I was

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Speaker 2: eleven and my older brother would have been twelve or thirteen,

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Speaker 2: so we're all within about thirteen years of each other.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, I'd say we were pretty close. I mean,

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Speaker 2: of course, like all of us wanted to go play

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Speaker 2: with our friends. But I think it was always really

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Speaker 2: important to my mom that we were each other's like

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Speaker 2: number one friend, or that we were each other's number

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Speaker 2: one supporter.

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Speaker 1: As the second oldest I, did you have a lot

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Speaker 1: of responsibility.

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Speaker 2: As the oldest girl. Yeah, I definitely felt like it

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Speaker 2: was kind of like the expectation that, you know, if

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Speaker 2: my mom had to run an errand it was me

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Speaker 2: that the responsibility mostly fell onto to make sure that

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Speaker 2: my younger brothers or sister didn't get hurt or haven't

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Speaker 2: forbid kill themselves.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the wrist with little kids is it's not like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you'll skin your knee, It's like, oh, you'll fall out

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Speaker 1: the window. Like do you have to have your eyes

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Speaker 1: on all the time?

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Speaker 2: Yes? Completely.

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Speaker 1: Did you ever have any of those moments when you

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Speaker 1: were babysitting or watching your siblings they're like, oh God,

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Speaker 1: this just got out of hand.

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Speaker 2: Well, yes, I don't know if I shall say this

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Speaker 2: or not, but my mom had left instructions that we

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Speaker 2: were all supposed to clean our rooms, and so I

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Speaker 2: was trying to convince my youngest brother to come and

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Speaker 2: clean his room, and of course he didn't want to

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Speaker 2: because my sister was like, no, let's go play. Let's

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Speaker 2: go play, come with me and you can plan, and

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Speaker 2: I was like, no, Mom says you have to come

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Speaker 2: clean your room. So I remember grabbing hold of his

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Speaker 2: arm and trying to pull him in to clean his room. Well,

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Speaker 2: my sister grabbed his ankle and she tried to pull

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Speaker 2: him like with her. She was headed down the stairs

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Speaker 2: and she tried to pull his ankles to come play

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Speaker 2: with her. There must have been a yank there that

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Speaker 2: was so hard that it dislocated his little arm, and

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Speaker 2: he just started screaming bloody murder, and both my sister

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Speaker 2: and I were like, what have we done? Oh? No, like,

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Speaker 2: what have we done? Fortunately, my mom walked in the

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Speaker 2: door like three minutes later and he was crying and crying,

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Speaker 2: so she took him into the emergency room, and the

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Speaker 2: nurse who saw him she was just like, oh, let

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Speaker 2: me just do this real quick, and she just popped

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Speaker 2: his arm back in and then he was totally fine.

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Speaker 2: But the sheer panic that set in when like he

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Speaker 2: was just crying and screaming, whoa.

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Speaker 1: I had the exact same thing happened with my youngest.

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Speaker 1: Just popped that elbow right out. I think we were

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Speaker 1: throwing an orange at her, which is also probably not

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Speaker 1: a great story. What role did music play in your family?

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Speaker 2: So, I mean I started playing the harp when I

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Speaker 2: was five years old. I mean, I think all of us,

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Speaker 2: at one point or another had some kind of music lessons.

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Speaker 2: Some of us stuck with it longer than others. But

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Speaker 2: I would say that our lives were definitely influenced by music.

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Speaker 2: I mean, every time we went to my grandma's house, like,

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Speaker 2: she'd always be like, Okay, sit down and listen to

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Speaker 2: this song I'm going to play. Because she was a

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Speaker 2: wonderful pianist, had studied her whole life, and that was

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Speaker 2: a huge part of her life. I mean, I think

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Speaker 2: at one point she was president of the Symphony Guild

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Speaker 2: in Utah and that was a big deal to her.

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Speaker 2: I definitely remember that. She's always part of like some

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Speaker 2: music circle. And I mean I remember both my parents

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Speaker 2: like sitting down and playing the piano.

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Speaker 1: At the time. Like, what did you think you would

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Speaker 1: be when you grew up?

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Speaker 2: I mean, I thought I would grow up and I'd

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Speaker 2: be a mom and probably a harp teacher. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 2: kind of what I thought I would end up doing.

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Speaker 2: I'm so happy and grateful to be a mom, but

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Speaker 2: I don't actually think I would have been that great

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Speaker 2: of a harp teacher.

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Speaker 1: If truth be told, you grew up in the Church

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Speaker 1: of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, and faith was

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Speaker 1: really central to your family life. So what role did

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Speaker 1: religion play like in your childhood and in shaping who

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Speaker 1: you were.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we went to church absolutely every Sunday. Even

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Speaker 2: on vacation, we would go to church. I mean, we

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Speaker 2: prayed together as a family at least twice a day.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I say it was very much at the

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Speaker 2: forefront of family life and the way that I was raised.

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Speaker 2: I mean I would say I had a very happy childhood.

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Speaker 2: I would say I had a very secure childhood, a

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Speaker 2: very protected childhood. I mean I never felt like I

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Speaker 2: was in danger. I never felt like my family was

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Speaker 2: in danger. I couldn't imagine bad things happening to any

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Speaker 2: of us. I mean, certainly I had seen the news before,

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Speaker 2: but the news also felt like it was a different

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Speaker 2: world from the world that I lived in. I didn't

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Speaker 2: know anyone who ever openly talked about being hurt or

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Speaker 2: abused or raped. Those topics just never even entered my world,

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Speaker 2: so I didn't think about it.

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Speaker 1: So now we've got a picture of young Elizabeth, a

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Speaker 1: girl who grew up with the kind of childhood where

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Speaker 1: bad things felt like they happened somewhere else on the news,

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Speaker 1: in a different world. On the night of June fourth,

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Speaker 1: two thousand and two, her entire world changed. Elizabeth is

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Speaker 1: going to walk us through what happened. I want to

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Speaker 1: warn you it is hard to hear, but it's important.

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Speaker 1: Can you walk us through what happened that night before

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Speaker 1: you went to bed?

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Speaker 2: Yes, so evening of June fourth, I mean, honestly, that

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Speaker 2: whole day, like it was a normal day. There wasn't

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Speaker 2: anything bad about it. My mom, she it's always been

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Speaker 2: really important for her that we all sit down together

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Speaker 2: as a family and have dinner together as a family.

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Speaker 2: But things prior to that had been a little bit

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Speaker 2: chaotic because her father had just passed away and it

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Speaker 2: had been like a really he just had declined so rapidly,

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Speaker 2: so she'd spent a lot of time at his house

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Speaker 2: trying to help my grandma take care of him, try

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Speaker 2: to spend time with him, and then he had just

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Speaker 2: died very quickly, and so his funeral had just been

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Speaker 2: the day before, a couple days before, and so she

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Speaker 2: was definitely trying to get back into the swing of things,

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Speaker 2: get back into a routine. She was trying to get

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Speaker 2: her on the table. I mean, with six kids running around,

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Speaker 2: it was you know, it was always a bit chaotic.

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Speaker 2: She rarely ever made mistakes when making dinner, but for

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Speaker 2: whatever reason, just the chaos of that evening, she ended

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Speaker 2: up forgetting about the potatoes boiling on the stove and

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Speaker 2: they ended up burning. And she was like, oh great,

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Speaker 2: Like what have I done? Like one more thing, and

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Speaker 2: she opened up the window to air out the room

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Speaker 2: because you know, I'll smell bad. And she still managed

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Speaker 2: to get dinner on the table, and you know, we

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Speaker 2: ate and went through our usual evening routine. I remember

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Speaker 2: going to bed with my younger sister. We not only

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Speaker 2: shared a room, but we shared a bed. At the time,

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Speaker 2: I had been reading this book called Ella Enchanted, and

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Speaker 2: my little sister she wanted to hear it. She wanted

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Speaker 2: to know what it was about, and so she was like,

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Speaker 2: you have to read it to me. You have to

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Speaker 2: read it to me too, like I want to know

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Speaker 2: the story. And so I remember I started reading it

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Speaker 2: to her, and she's like, one more chapter, one more chapter,

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Speaker 2: just one more chapter. And I remember, by the time

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Speaker 2: I finally finished, like the last chapter she had begged

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Speaker 2: to listen to, I looked over and she was asleep,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, well, that's great. Tomorrow night she's

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Speaker 2: gonna be like, well, I fell asleep. I didn't hear

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Speaker 2: what happened in the rest of that chapter. Can you

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Speaker 2: reread the chapter? I was like, Okay, well, it's it's

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Speaker 2: pretty late, so I'm going to go to bed too.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think it genuinely was pretty late. I

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Speaker 2: think it was probably close to midnight. I don't know.

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Speaker 2: My parents definitely would not have been happy if they

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Speaker 2: knew we were still awake reading. They would have had

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Speaker 2: thoughts on that. But I remember going to sleep, and

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Speaker 2: the next thing I remember was waking up from a

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Speaker 2: deep sleep, but not fully coming conscious yet, like my

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Speaker 2: eyes hadn't opened yet. I had heard a voice. I

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Speaker 2: remember just not responding to the voice initially because it

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Speaker 2: seemed so unreal, like it didn't seem like it was

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Speaker 2: like what it was saying couldn't actually be happening to me.

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Speaker 2: Because I was at home and I was in my bed,

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Speaker 2: and I was in the place that I thought was

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Speaker 2: safest in the world, and the voice repeated the same

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Speaker 2: words again, saying, I have a knife at your neck,

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Speaker 2: don't make a sound, get up and come with me.

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Speaker 2: And the second time that the voice said those words,

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Speaker 2: I remember I could actually feel something sharp line across

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Speaker 2: my neck, and I remember feeling someone's hand all my

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Speaker 2: arm trying to pull me out of bed. Honestly, that

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Speaker 2: was the first time in my life that I really

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Speaker 2: understood what it meant to be terrified. Nothing in my

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Speaker 2: life had prepared me for that moment. Of all the

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Speaker 2: safety education I had received in my life, that was

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Speaker 2: not something that had been covered. You know, I knew

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Speaker 2: what to do if I caught on fire, stop, drop

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Speaker 2: and roll. I knew not to talk to strangers. I

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Speaker 2: knew to look both ways before crossing the street. I

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Speaker 2: knew that if an earthquake happened, I needed to get

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Speaker 2: under my desk, go stand in a door frame. I

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Speaker 2: felt like I knew all the basic safety information, but

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Speaker 2: no one had ever said, if someone breaks into your home,

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Speaker 2: you need to do this. If someone tries to kidnap you,

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Speaker 2: you know you need to respond this way. Those were

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Speaker 2: just topics that had never been addressed, because I don't

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Speaker 2: think anyone ever thought it was a possibility. Definitely not

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Speaker 2: from my own home, Definitely not out of my bed

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Speaker 2: in my bedroom in the middle of the night. So

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Speaker 2: in that moment, I did not feel like I had

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Speaker 2: a choice. I felt like I had to get up

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Speaker 2: and go with him. And not to mention, my little

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Speaker 2: sister was asleep in bed next to me, or at

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Speaker 2: least I thought she was asleep in bed next to me,

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Speaker 2: and I knew she was still alive because I could

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Speaker 2: hear her breathing. And as the big sister, it was

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Speaker 2: my responsibility to protect her, to make sure nothing bad

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Speaker 2: ever happened to her. That's you know why I chose

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Speaker 2: the side of the bed next to the door, so

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Speaker 2: that I could protect her if anything ever happened. Not

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Speaker 2: that I ever thought that there was a chance that

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Speaker 2: that would, but still that was my thought process.

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth was held captive for nine months by two individuals

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Speaker 1: who put her through unspeakable torture. Fourteen years old at

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Speaker 1: the start of it and fifteen when it ended. And

243
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Speaker 1: during your captivity, you're so young, how did you navigate

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Speaker 1: having so little agency while being controlled by these erratic,

245
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Speaker 1: unpredictable people.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it was. It was devastating going through everything,

247
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Speaker 2: and I remember I remember the first day, the morning

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Speaker 2: I mean after he first raped me chained me up,

249
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Speaker 2: just thinking that this must be the worst thing I

250
00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:33,520
Speaker 2: could ever experience. There could be nothing worse than what

251
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Speaker 2: I just experienced, and that this was rock bottom. But

252
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Speaker 2: then the next day I was forced to go naked

253
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Speaker 2: all day long. I was forced to watch both of

254
00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:53,199
Speaker 2: my captors having sex together and being told that this

255
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Speaker 2: is the way a wife is supposed to love her husband.

256
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Speaker 2: I was told I was, you know, his second wife.

257
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Speaker 2: My other captor was his first wife, and that I

258
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Speaker 2: needed to learn how a wife loves her husband. And

259
00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:10,199
Speaker 2: I remember thinking this, this is the worst. There couldn't

260
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Speaker 2: be anything worse than this. But anytime I had that thought,

261
00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:19,960
Speaker 2: there always seemed to be a new level of worse,

262
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Speaker 2: and every time that something worse would happen, I would

263
00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:28,120
Speaker 2: fill that devastation all over again. And so I felt

264
00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:30,640
Speaker 2: like I had to get to this point where I

265
00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:36,599
Speaker 2: couldn't keep hitting these levels of desperation, like I couldn't

266
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Speaker 2: emotionally stand it anymore, And so whenever something bad happened,

267
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Speaker 2: I started thinking, Okay, this is really really bad, but

268
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Speaker 2: do know what would make this worse? If it rained

269
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Speaker 2: right now, that would make this situation so much worse.

270
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Speaker 2: And so from then on I would think of things

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Speaker 2: that would make a situation worse so I could be

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Speaker 2: grateful for what it was, grateful that it wasn't as

273
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Speaker 2: bad as it could be. And by doing that, I

274
00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:13,600
Speaker 2: felt like I was able to make it through every

275
00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:16,840
Speaker 2: worse situation, and that did make a difference for me.

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Speaker 1: You've said that listening to him talk was maybe even

277
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Speaker 1: the worst because he was so grandiose and unattached to reality.

278
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Speaker 1: How did you keep a sense of what reality was?

279
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Speaker 2: Everything that he said was, I'd say, a direct contradiction

280
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Speaker 2: to the way that I had been raised to what

281
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,800
Speaker 2: I knew of the world prior to my abduction. And

282
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Speaker 2: he was hurting me for all of his talk of

283
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Speaker 2: God and being commanded to do all of these things.

284
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Speaker 2: I mean, he was starving me, he was degrading me.

285
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Speaker 2: He was withholding water from me, withholding sleep from me.

286
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Speaker 2: He was raping me like he was it was abusing me.

287
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Speaker 2: And that was the complete opposite of the God that

288
00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:05,840
Speaker 2: I'd been raised to believe in, and so for me,

289
00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,000
Speaker 2: it was a much more comforting thought to believe that

290
00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:12,080
Speaker 2: there were good people in this world, that there was

291
00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:15,760
Speaker 2: a loving God who was aware of me, that I

292
00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:19,280
Speaker 2: wasn't completely alone in the situation I was in. I mean,

293
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Speaker 2: it just the world seemed like a lot darker, scarier

294
00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:25,240
Speaker 2: place if I was to believe everything that he said

295
00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,680
Speaker 2: than not, and so I preferred not to believe it.

296
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Speaker 2: Although I also recognize the fact that if I wanted

297
00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:37,280
Speaker 2: to survive, if I wanted to minimize abuse as much

298
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Speaker 2: as possible, minimize consequences as much as possible, try to

299
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Speaker 2: maximize my survival, then I needed to do what he said.

300
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Speaker 2: I mean, it really was as simple as that I

301
00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,760
Speaker 2: needed to listen to him when he told me to

302
00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,080
Speaker 2: do something. I needed to do it because he was

303
00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:58,000
Speaker 2: capable of killing me, He was capable of making the

304
00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:01,880
Speaker 2: situation worse, he was capable of following through with every

305
00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:05,640
Speaker 2: threat that he ever made. And I didn't want to

306
00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,880
Speaker 2: die and I wanted to see my family again someday.

307
00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:12,120
Speaker 2: So the best way to do that was to do

308
00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:12,640
Speaker 2: what he said.

309
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:17,520
Speaker 1: It's a very complex emotional thing to be able to

310
00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:20,360
Speaker 1: hold two truths at the same time, even for adults.

311
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Speaker 1: I mean, it's quite remarkable that you were able to

312
00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:25,240
Speaker 1: do it so young. I think, especially in the context

313
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Speaker 1: of religion, Like you grew up religious. He was justifying everything,

314
00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:34,239
Speaker 1: all of the abuse in religion. How did you reconcile

315
00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:37,800
Speaker 1: your feelings around religion? Did it change your relationship to religion?

316
00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:43,360
Speaker 2: Initially, No, Again, I was born into my family's faith.

317
00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:47,680
Speaker 2: It was I knew the rules, I knew what I

318
00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,440
Speaker 2: was taught, it was what my family had always done.

319
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Speaker 2: And so after being rescued and returning to that, it

320
00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:58,680
Speaker 2: felt comfortable. It felt like I knew it. It felt like,

321
00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,080
Speaker 2: you know, it was easy just to slip back in

322
00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,000
Speaker 2: from where I was left off. And how could I

323
00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:06,840
Speaker 2: not view what happened to me. I mean my rescue

324
00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:10,720
Speaker 2: as a miracle, as an answer to prayer. So I

325
00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:14,439
Speaker 2: would say initially no, If anything, it probably made my

326
00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:18,960
Speaker 2: faith stronger. Now, as an adult, looking back and having

327
00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:21,960
Speaker 2: experienced more of the world, I'd say it's changed my

328
00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:25,520
Speaker 2: faith now. I mean, I feel like, I know I

329
00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:29,199
Speaker 2: believe in God, but I don't just believe anything. I

330
00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,760
Speaker 2: don't no matter who it comes from. So did it

331
00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:38,159
Speaker 2: affect me then, No, probably strengthen my faith looking back now, Yeah,

332
00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:41,760
Speaker 2: because I've unfortunately, of all the stories that I've heard,

333
00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:45,800
Speaker 2: mine really is not that uncommon. Learning for myself is

334
00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:49,160
Speaker 2: very important to me and my faith today.

335
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Speaker 1: You've said that when you were the nine months you

336
00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,359
Speaker 1: were in captivity, that something shifted and changed and you

337
00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:56,760
Speaker 1: had a fierce determination that you were going to live.

338
00:17:57,480 --> 00:17:59,800
Speaker 1: When did that shift happen for you? Was it like

339
00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:02,800
Speaker 1: one event that happened or over time?

340
00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,639
Speaker 2: I would say it was from day one. There were

341
00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:10,280
Speaker 2: certainly times where I questioned if I was going to survive.

342
00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:12,520
Speaker 2: There were certainly times where I questioned if maybe it

343
00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:15,439
Speaker 2: would be better if I didn't survive. I mean, I

344
00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,800
Speaker 2: went through this whole cycle after I had been raped,

345
00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:22,680
Speaker 2: of feeling worthless, of feeling like I was unlovable, feeling

346
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,479
Speaker 2: like people knew the truth about me, that they wouldn't

347
00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:27,840
Speaker 2: want to find me anymore. I was no longer worthy

348
00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:30,600
Speaker 2: to be found. And as I just sat there thinking

349
00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,439
Speaker 2: about things, I just remembered how much my parents had

350
00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:35,720
Speaker 2: always loved me, how much they'd always shown up for me,

351
00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:38,919
Speaker 2: and recognizing the fact that they would still love me

352
00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,240
Speaker 2: even after everything that had happened to me, and for me,

353
00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:44,560
Speaker 2: that would have been worth surviving for. That was worth

354
00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:47,359
Speaker 2: returning back home to my parents, even if nobody else

355
00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,639
Speaker 2: wanted to be my friend, loved me, accepted me. Just

356
00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:54,080
Speaker 2: returning back home to them, that was worth surviving for.

357
00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:56,840
Speaker 2: And so that's the moment that I was like, Okay,

358
00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:59,679
Speaker 2: I'm going to do whatever it takes, doesn't matter what

359
00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:01,920
Speaker 2: it is. If it means I'm going to survive, I'll

360
00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:04,600
Speaker 2: do it. I'll do whatever it takes to survive. That's

361
00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:06,880
Speaker 2: how I did it. I mean, that's how I made

362
00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:09,360
Speaker 2: the decisions that I made. And I mean it did

363
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:11,520
Speaker 2: get to a point where I was like it was

364
00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,200
Speaker 2: almost second nature because I had to keep making those

365
00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:19,040
Speaker 2: decisions over and over and over and over that I

366
00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,280
Speaker 2: didn't really need to think about what I needed to do.

367
00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:23,159
Speaker 2: I just knew.

368
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:28,359
Speaker 1: While Elizabeth was in captivity, the world outside was looking

369
00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:31,840
Speaker 1: for her. Her family was relentless keeping her name alive,

370
00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,360
Speaker 1: showing up, refusing to let the story go quiet. Her

371
00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:39,600
Speaker 1: disappearance had captured the attention of the entire country. One day,

372
00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:42,800
Speaker 1: her captor came back with a missing poster, her face

373
00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,400
Speaker 1: printed and plastered across Salt Lake city. It gave Elizabeth

374
00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,960
Speaker 1: proof that her family had never stopped looking. We're going

375
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,760
Speaker 1: to hear about what happened next, including how Elizabeth played

376
00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,160
Speaker 1: a role in her own rescue, But first a quick

377
00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:19,719
Speaker 1: break during the captivity Your captor brought back a missing poster.

378
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,600
Speaker 1: Review What went through your mind when you realize that

379
00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:24,040
Speaker 1: people were still looking for you.

380
00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:29,119
Speaker 2: There was hope that maybe I would be found, hope that, yeah,

381
00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:32,040
Speaker 2: that people were still looking for me. I mean, it

382
00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:36,320
Speaker 2: was also a little bit devastating as well, because it's

383
00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:38,119
Speaker 2: not like he just came back and just handed me

384
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,840
Speaker 2: the piece of paper and was like, look at this. No,

385
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,120
Speaker 2: he came back and he showed me, and he's like, well,

386
00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:48,040
Speaker 2: all of Salt Lake is covered in your face and

387
00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:51,440
Speaker 2: everyone is looking for you, but no one's going to

388
00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:55,320
Speaker 2: find you because I have you and God is protecting us.

389
00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:57,720
Speaker 2: And I mean just on and on and on and on.

390
00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:02,760
Speaker 2: Sometimes listening to him was worse than anything else, because

391
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:06,400
Speaker 2: he did just talk about how special he was, how

392
00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:10,920
Speaker 2: powerful he was, and honestly, sometimes it really felt most

393
00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,879
Speaker 2: of the time it really felt like he was invincible.

394
00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,760
Speaker 2: I mean, he got away with so much, I mean,

395
00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,639
Speaker 2: throughout his entire life, even prior to my abduction. He

396
00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:24,080
Speaker 2: got away with terrible things. I mean, honestly, like there

397
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,119
Speaker 2: were people who should have stepped in well before he

398
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,920
Speaker 2: ever got to me. If people had been paying attention,

399
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,760
Speaker 2: I probably never would have been kidnapped. But it is

400
00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:34,320
Speaker 2: what it is.

401
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:37,480
Speaker 1: Did you find out about the things that he had

402
00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:41,439
Speaker 1: done when you were in captivity or afterwards both?

403
00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,240
Speaker 2: I mean he did say some things. I mean they

404
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:48,199
Speaker 2: had they had these thick three ring binders of like

405
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:52,679
Speaker 2: their travels, their experiences. I mean his wife, Wanda Barzie,

406
00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:54,960
Speaker 2: my other chapter. She would go in and write them down,

407
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,520
Speaker 2: and then she'd go back and she'd write them in calligraphy,

408
00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:00,760
Speaker 2: and she'd store them in this binder. They'd go back

409
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:02,359
Speaker 2: and they'd read it to me, and they'd be like,

410
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:06,000
Speaker 2: this is like scripture. These are experiences that shaped us

411
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:10,520
Speaker 2: into who we are today. So I definitely was aware

412
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:14,320
Speaker 2: of some of their past history. And then during the

413
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:18,320
Speaker 2: trial there was a lot more things that came to light.

414
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:22,560
Speaker 2: And then just over the years, I have met other

415
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:26,800
Speaker 2: victims of his and of his friends when they were young,

416
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,280
Speaker 2: I mean when they were high school age, and heard

417
00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 2: of things that he did back then. So this was

418
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:34,359
Speaker 2: not just one day he decided, I'm going to go

419
00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:37,440
Speaker 2: out and kidnap a young girl. This was a lifetime

420
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:41,240
Speaker 2: of getting away with doing terrible things.

421
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:44,720
Speaker 1: You went out in public with them a couple of times.

422
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:47,760
Speaker 1: They had you in various disguises, and even at one

423
00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:49,919
Speaker 1: point there was a police officer that you spoke to,

424
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:51,960
Speaker 1: but your captors were able to convince them that you

425
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,200
Speaker 1: were their daughter. Can you tell us about that and

426
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 1: help illuminate the point on circumstances of kidnapping or you know,

427
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:01,400
Speaker 1: into abuse. Why didn't they just walk away?

428
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question and one that actually when

429
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,879
Speaker 2: I first was asked about, I would always feel extremely

430
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,320
Speaker 2: defensive about and I would just be like, you're blaming

431
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:16,160
Speaker 2: me for not getting away. You're blaming me or staying

432
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,159
Speaker 2: in that situation. Do you know how bad that situation was? Well, no,

433
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:21,680
Speaker 2: they don't know how bad that situation was. They didn't

434
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,880
Speaker 2: see what was happening on the other side. I mean,

435
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,960
Speaker 2: I was fourteen years old, I had been a child.

436
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:32,160
Speaker 2: I've lived an extremely sheltered life. Then the most brutal

437
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,199
Speaker 2: awakening happened to me. I mean, kidnapped out of my

438
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,480
Speaker 2: bed at knife point, told I was now his wife,

439
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:46,240
Speaker 2: raped multiple times every day, chained up, abused, starved again,

440
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:51,199
Speaker 2: sleep with health, water with held, like all basic necessities

441
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:55,560
Speaker 2: deprived from me, and I was not treated with any

442
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 2: kind of human decency. They did feel like they were invincible.

443
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 2: They seemed like they were invincible to me because no

444
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 2: one found me, no one protected me, no one was

445
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:07,920
Speaker 2: there to stop them from hurting me in any way,

446
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,400
Speaker 2: and the threats that they made against my family's life,

447
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 2: they also felt very real. So when we were approached

448
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:19,160
Speaker 2: in the library by this homicide detective and he didn't

449
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 2: even like flat out say I'm looking for Elizabeth Smart.

450
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 2: He just said, I'm I'm looking for a girl. I'm

451
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 2: a homicide detective. I'm looking for answers about a girl

452
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,119
Speaker 2: who disappeared. So that also could have meant anyone that

453
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,359
Speaker 2: might mean he's not even looking for me. There was

454
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,960
Speaker 2: a whole maelstrom of emotion there and as I sat there,

455
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:41,719
Speaker 2: Wanda Barzi, who was sitting next to me, I mean,

456
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 2: her hand had just clamped down on my leg like

457
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,200
Speaker 2: a vice, and when she grabbed hold of me, it

458
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:50,119
Speaker 2: was just like everything that I had experienced. It was

459
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 2: like reliving it all over again, all the threats, all

460
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,679
Speaker 2: the abuse, reminding me of what they were capable of,

461
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,919
Speaker 2: and not knowing this police officer, not knowing if he

462
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:03,640
Speaker 2: actually could protect not knowing if he actually would believe me. Again,

463
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 2: because these were two adults claiming to be ministers for Christ,

464
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 2: just traveling across the country inviting people to come unto him,

465
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 2: and here I was a teenager. Why would the police

466
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 2: officer believe me. I just couldn't imagine that. And I

467
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:25,159
Speaker 2: didn't know any police officers prior to my abduction. I

468
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 2: had no reason to ever come into contact with police

469
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 2: officers before then. I mean, the most that I did

470
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 2: was like the police officer who came to teach the

471
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:36,720
Speaker 2: DARE program, and that just always kind of felt intimidating anyway, Right,

472
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 2: I just didn't know if I actually could say anything,

473
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 2: if i'd be believed, if I'd just been dangering myself,

474
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 2: if I'd been dangering my family. And you're absolutely right,

475
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 2: from the outside looking in, it's easy for people to

476
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 2: be like, the officer was there to help you. Obviously

477
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 2: he was there to help you. Obviously he could have

478
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,160
Speaker 2: protected you, but it wasn't obvious. And I think you'd

479
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:03,159
Speaker 2: have the same answer from other kidnapped victims, domestic violence victims.

480
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 2: It is never as simple and easy as just saying

481
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 2: I need help, Come help me. There are some amazing

482
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 2: survivors out there who are able to say that, but

483
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 2: many of us who can. And it's not because we

484
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:16,640
Speaker 2: don't want to. We want to.

485
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:19,479
Speaker 1: In the end, you did play a role in your

486
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,879
Speaker 1: own rescue by convincing your captor to return to Utah

487
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 1: and essentially speaking his warped language about God speaking to you.

488
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 1: How did you find the courage to do this at fourteen?

489
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 2: Well, I'd watched him use his warped logic for nine

490
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 2: months successfully, I had been a victim of it for

491
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:46,440
Speaker 2: nine months. And I also recognize the fact that, I mean,

492
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,920
Speaker 2: he wanted to be powerful. That's what this was. That's

493
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 2: what this was about. I mean, it was about him

494
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 2: feeling powerful, him having control over people around him. That's

495
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:02,679
Speaker 2: what he wanted. So I knew that if I approached

496
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 2: him in that manner, if I was acknowledging how powerful

497
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 2: he was, how basically wonderful he was, and how right

498
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,160
Speaker 2: he was, then that is what he would want to hear.

499
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 2: And I also knew that my best chance to be

500
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 2: rescued was to get back to Salt Lake because we

501
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 2: were in southern California at the time, and I knew

502
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 2: if I addressed him, addressed his power from a spiritual angle,

503
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,880
Speaker 2: using the language that they talked about, then that would

504
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,880
Speaker 2: be my best chance at convincing them to return back

505
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:35,640
Speaker 2: to Utah.

506
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 1: Did it just kill you inside to do it, like,

507
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 1: to essentially be agreeing with him?

508
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:45,439
Speaker 2: It felt slimy, it felt wrong, But I also just

509
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 2: knew it's what I needed to do and do whatever

510
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 2: it took, and this is what it was going to take. Yeah.

511
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 1: I hope at some point you are able to take

512
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 1: hold of how smart you are and how high you're emotional.

513
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:03,159
Speaker 1: I Q is because the things that you're describing and

514
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 1: I don't think most adults would be able to do,

515
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,400
Speaker 1: and the fact that you did it so young really

516
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 1: is an incredible demonstration of how capable you are.

517
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,639
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you for saying that. But also I

518
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 2: think none of us know how strong we really are

519
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,359
Speaker 2: or how resourceful we really are until we don't have

520
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 2: a choice. I didn't have a choice. I didn't choose

521
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,199
Speaker 2: to be kidnapped, I didn't choose to be chained up.

522
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 2: I didn't choose to be hurt or abused. I was

523
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 2: forced into that situation. I don't want anyone else to

524
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 2: go through what I went through, But I think all

525
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,959
Speaker 2: of us would be surprised if we're forced to go

526
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 2: through something actually, how strong and resilient each of us

527
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 2: can be.

528
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 1: On March twelfth, you're finally rescued. Can you describe the

529
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 1: moment that you were reunited with your father? And it

530
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 1: took you a moment, right.

531
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it was a great day to be rescued,

532
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 2: but it wasn't just like all happy and easy. I'd

533
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 2: say it was by rescue was a little bit traumatic

534
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 2: in and of itself. I mean, once you know the

535
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 2: police had ascertained who I was. I mean I had

536
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 2: my hands put behind my back and I was handcuffed

537
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 2: and put in the police car, and so then I

538
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 2: thought I was in trouble. And I mean they did

539
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 2: eventually unhandcuff me, but I thought if they thought I

540
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 2: was innocent, they would have taken me straight home or

541
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 2: I could have called my parents. I mean, I wasn't.

542
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 2: I didn't get a phone call to anyone. I wasn't

543
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 2: taken home. I was taking to the police station, and

544
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 2: no one had told me your dad's coming, your parents

545
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 2: are coming. No one had said anything to me really

546
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 2: other than you can take off your disguise, which I did.

547
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 2: So I wasn't expecting my dad just to materialize basically

548
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,959
Speaker 2: out of thin air in the room. So when he did,

549
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 2: it did take me a minute to respond. And I

550
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 2: mean he was just like Also, he was so emotional

551
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 2: when he saw me. I mean he just like come

552
00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 2: run in the room with his arms open and just

553
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 2: grabbed me. He was crying, and I just hadn't expected

554
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 2: any of that. So it did take me a minute

555
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 2: to kind of process everything that was happening, process who

556
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 2: was in the room with me, process his emotion, and

557
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 2: just how happy he was to see me.

558
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,719
Speaker 1: Can you talk about when you came home after you

559
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 1: were rescued, it was a process of healing, understandably, How

560
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 1: did you begin to process what had happened to you?

561
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 2: I mean, initially I did not want to talk about

562
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 2: what had happened to me at all, because I did

563
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 2: feel that embarrassment, I felt that shame. I felt like

564
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 2: I'd be judged if people knew what had happened to me,

565
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 2: and I didn't want to feel that way, so initially,

566
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 2: I very much did not want to talk about or

567
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 2: acknowledge what had happened to me, and my parents actually

568
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 2: let me make that choice. They didn't force me into therapy.

569
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 2: They let me make that choice, and I'm so grateful

570
00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 2: that they did, because I think for any victim, power

571
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 2: of choice is a gift, and I think it should

572
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 2: be given back to victims as much as possible. I

573
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 2: do understand sometimes there are decisions that have to be

574
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 2: made for their own safety or because they're underage, that

575
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 2: they can't make for themselves, but I feel like when

576
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 2: they can, every decision should be made by victims and

577
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 2: survivors themselves, because whatever it is that they went through

578
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 2: that decision, that that power of choice was taken away

579
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 2: from them, that is one of the first stepping stones

580
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 2: and blocks of healing that you can reclaim that you

581
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 2: can take. They were obviously worried about me, so they

582
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 2: actually went to counseling themselves, and thank Goodness for a

583
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 2: good counselor. He was just like, it's okay, don't force

584
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 2: her to go, but make sure you take care of

585
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 2: yourselves so that if she's ready to talk, you're in

586
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 2: a place that you can listen because you, more than

587
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 2: anyone else, are going to be her biggest counselors, or

588
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 2: biggest therapists or biggest supports. And so they did that.

589
00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 2: I struggled with feelings of shame for a long time.

590
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 2: I didn't tell people about it, but internally I certainly

591
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 2: felt that way. Again, I didn't want people to know

592
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 2: what had happened to me, and I found it very

593
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 2: healing and therapeutic to be able to release those kinds

594
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 2: of emotions through music, through being outside and nature. I

595
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 2: used to love to go horseback riding with my grandpa.

596
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 2: I'd say I had a healthy fear of men when

597
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 2: I got back, but I always felt safe with my grandpa.

598
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 2: He was a man that I always trusted, and we'd

599
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 2: go horseback riding together. I mean sometimes we'd talk, sometimes

600
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 2: we wouldn't. But I found it very healing in that

601
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 2: horses are They're huge animals, you know, they're hundreds of pounds,

602
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:46,959
Speaker 2: and all you have is like a little piece of

603
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 2: leather to control them. And they could run away with

604
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 2: me if they wanted, or they could hurt me, or

605
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 2: they could throw me off, and there wouldn't be a

606
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 2: whole lot I could do about it, But I think

607
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 2: the magical thing about horseback riding is again that these

608
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 2: horses don't care who you were yesterday, They don't care

609
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 2: what you've been through. They care about the right here

610
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 2: and the right now, the connection you as a rider

611
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 2: have with the horse, and the trust that they're putting

612
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 2: in you to guide them safely, and the trust you

613
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 2: put in them to carry you safely. And of course

614
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 2: there's still can be surprises. I mean, a deer could

615
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 2: pop out, a moose could pop out. Pay attention to

616
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 2: the branches around you. It really forces you to be

617
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 2: present in this moment. And it was like hitting the

618
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 2: reset button for me because I was forced to be

619
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 2: present in that moment and not just ruminate on all

620
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 2: the bad things that had happened in my past. And

621
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 2: then that was able to give me the perspective that fifteen, sixteen,

622
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 2: seventeen years old, okay, seventeen years of twelve months each

623
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 2: and only nine of those months were truly terrible bad

624
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 2: day here and there. Yes, but only nine months out

625
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 2: of whatever seventeen times twelve is is actually not that bad.

626
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 2: Of odds, I still have all this time in front

627
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 2: of me to live my life and I don't need

628
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 2: to let this black dot of nine months ruin the

629
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 2: rest of my life.

630
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 1: You were able to I don't want to say move on,

631
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 1: but continue on. Did you go to school. I know

632
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 1: that you eventually served in an LDS mission.

633
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. I started high school and I graduated. I went

634
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:35,240
Speaker 2: on to university. I studied music performance. I was able

635
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 2: to pursue kind of all the things that I had

636
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 2: thought i'd always wanted to do. I mean, I did

637
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 2: a study abroad. Yeah, I did an LDS mission. I

638
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 2: went and spent a summer studying at the Aspen Music

639
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 2: Festival in Colorado under some of the greatest music teachers

640
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,319
Speaker 2: in the life. I mean, so, I definitely feel like

641
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,840
Speaker 2: I was able to experience and live some of the

642
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:00,760
Speaker 2: dreams that I had always had for myself.

643
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 1: Elizabeth came home on March twelfth, two thousand and three.

644
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 1: She built a life for herself, but justice moved slowly.

645
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,240
Speaker 1: It took nearly eight years for a captor to stand trial.

646
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 1: After the break, Elizabeth will tell us about the trial

647
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 1: and how her experience there helped to fuel her passion

648
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 1: for advocacy, as well as inform how she talks to

649
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 1: her own children about bodily autonomy. Be right back. It

650
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 1: took almost eight years for your capture to stand trial.

651
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 1: He kept pushing it off, prolonging it, and then you

652
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 1: came back and you testified against him. But you had

653
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 1: had this full life in that time. So what was

654
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 1: it like to face him again? And how much had

655
00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 1: you changed in those eight years.

656
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 2: I have mixed feelings about everything. I mean, on one hand,

657
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 2: I don't think it should have ever have taken eight

658
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 2: years for everything to happen that had happened like that

659
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 2: felt unfair. That felt unfair to me. It felt unfair

660
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 2: that the defense attorneys could keep on using what felt

661
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:20,480
Speaker 2: like the same excuses, what he's not competent, we need

662
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 2: to make him competent to stand trial, to the point

663
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 2: that the statute of limitations almost came into effect that

664
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:30,239
Speaker 2: he could have potentially walked free without ever having a

665
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 2: consequence for what he did to me. So that had

666
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 2: felt very unfair to me. So there's that side. On

667
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 2: the other side, you're right, I was able to go

668
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:41,959
Speaker 2: back to school, I was able to go to college.

669
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,759
Speaker 2: I was able to have all these other experiences that

670
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 2: helped me learn to love myself again. That helped me

671
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 2: learn that what had happened to me didn't make me

672
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 2: any less of a human being. Anyone who judged me

673
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 2: for what had happened, well maybe they just didn't deserve

674
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 2: to be my friend. I had all these other experiences

675
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 2: that I would say were very healing for me and

676
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 2: just helped me get to where I needed to be,

677
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 2: so that by the time the trial actually came to be,

678
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 2: I knew that no matter the outcome, I wasn't going

679
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 2: to let him ruin the rest of my life, and

680
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:18,399
Speaker 2: that I was going to do, once again whatever it

681
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 2: took for this legal battle to finally come to an end.

682
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 2: So I mean I showed up in the courtroom every

683
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 2: single day, like I sat in the witness box, and

684
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:35,799
Speaker 2: I was examined and cross examined. I did everything that

685
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 2: was asked of me so that this could finally end.

686
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:43,239
Speaker 2: And I mean, fortunately there was a successful conviction, which

687
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 2: I am so grateful for because Bosta victims never get

688
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 2: to see that. They never see a successful conviction, They

689
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,359
Speaker 2: might never even see the inside of a courtroom. They're

690
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 2: perpetrator might not ever spend a single day in jail.

691
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:58,800
Speaker 2: So I am very grateful that that was the outcome

692
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 2: of my case. I feel like there are kind of

693
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 2: two ways of looking at it. The one way of

694
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 2: this is not right. Nothing should take eight years. There's

695
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 2: no way that this guy should almost walk free like

696
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 2: he's guilty. Everyone knows he's guilty, everyone knows he's a monster,

697
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,359
Speaker 2: like there's no question in that, and yet there's still

698
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 2: this possibility he can walk free. This is crazy. This

699
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,359
Speaker 2: is not a justice system. No one can ever give

700
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:26,480
Speaker 2: me back what was taken from me. We just have

701
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 2: a legal system, and quite frankly, it is not a

702
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:30,800
Speaker 2: victim friendly place.

703
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 1: Can you tell us why not?

704
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 2: Well, you are considered innocent until proven guilty, and so

705
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 2: it's almost like we don't believe our victims from the

706
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:44,319
Speaker 2: very get go, because we have to prove that these

707
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 2: perpetrators are actually guilty. And most of the time it

708
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 2: comes down to he said, she said, And when you

709
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 2: look at the she, how believable is she? Like? Does

710
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:55,799
Speaker 2: she look like a good girl? What does she look like?

711
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:59,360
Speaker 2: She was out there spreading her legs for people, And

712
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 2: so it's very easy to sit in judgment of victims.

713
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 2: It's very easy to not believe them, especially when the

714
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 2: perpetrator looks put together. Maybe they're a powerful person in

715
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 2: the community. Maybe they're just respected. They show up to

716
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:15,880
Speaker 2: work on time, or maybe they're a teacher or a parent.

717
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:18,319
Speaker 2: They do all the things that they're supposed to do,

718
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 2: they go to church on Sunday. I mean, there's Unfortunately,

719
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 2: it is terrible. Like I just said, I mean, it's

720
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 2: only about one in every thousand predators that is actually

721
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 2: ever successfully prosecuted. That numbers are stacked against us. So

722
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 2: I understand when victims are like, I don't want to

723
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:40,439
Speaker 2: press charges, Like I don't want to go through all that. Hell,

724
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:43,800
Speaker 2: I don't want to be judged on my life for

725
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 2: how I look, you know, what my past is. I

726
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:48,719
Speaker 2: don't want to be looked at to decide if I'm

727
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 2: worthy enough to be believed, only to at the end

728
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,360
Speaker 2: of the day have them walk free and know that

729
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,800
Speaker 2: they could come after me again and seek retribution again.

730
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 2: Those are very real. But I wish when it came

731
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 2: to cases of child abuse, sexual abuse, sexual exploitation, domestic violence,

732
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 2: I wish it was the opposite. I wish it was

733
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:15,880
Speaker 2: guilty until proven innocent. But that is not the world

734
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 2: we live in. That is not Those are not the

735
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:19,760
Speaker 2: rules that we live with in America.

736
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,439
Speaker 1: You've been very open about your story and transparent even

737
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 1: in this conversation. How do you decide which parts of

738
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 1: the story that are for the public, like you tell

739
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 1: in public, and which parts do you keep either to

740
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 1: yourself or the people close to you that you trust.

741
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 2: It's what I feel comfortable sharing. I feel like I

742
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 2: don't share anything that I am not personally comfortable with.

743
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 2: And then also, I mean there's time constraints and limits,

744
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 2: and many times there's certain aspects that people want me

745
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 2: to speak to. I mean, I'm sure I could spend

746
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:57,319
Speaker 2: nine months talking about the nine months that I was gone,

747
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 2: but that's just simply not that kind of time to

748
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 2: do that.

749
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 1: You've talked about how abstinence only education and the messages

750
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:07,919
Speaker 1: about sexual purity made your trauma worse because you felt

751
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:11,440
Speaker 1: ruined beyond repair. How do you talk to your own

752
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 1: children about their bodies safety and worth in a way

753
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 1: that's different.

754
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 2: I mean, so it started off very simple for me

755
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 2: and teaching my kids. I mean, now, when you're teaching

756
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 2: them body parts, just referring to the body parts with

757
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:28,399
Speaker 2: their actual names and not attaching shame to them. So

758
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:31,239
Speaker 2: penis is a penis. A vagina is a vagina, A

759
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 2: volva's a volva, and not being like, oh, but we

760
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:36,880
Speaker 2: don't say that, just not attaching shame to it. Just

761
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,800
Speaker 2: be like, yep, that's not appropriate right now, just saying

762
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 2: what it is, instead of being like, oh, they're your privates,

763
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:44,919
Speaker 2: they're your private it's like, oh, we don't talk about

764
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,920
Speaker 2: those kinds of things. I mean, just just speaking openly

765
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:51,240
Speaker 2: and honestly about your body parts, using the anatomically correct

766
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 2: body parts, so that there's no shame involved if they

767
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:58,800
Speaker 2: ever have to Heaven forbid, but if anything ever happens,

768
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,080
Speaker 2: they don't have that added life of shame just even

769
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 2: saying the body part names. I mean, for instance, after

770
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:06,360
Speaker 2: I was rescued, I was brought to the Children's Justice Center.

771
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 2: The second day I was home and I had to

772
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:11,760
Speaker 2: go and I had to talk to these two male psychiatrists,

773
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 2: both very religious. I mean, there were visual signs of

774
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 2: their religion and roughly around the same age as my captor.

775
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 2: That in and of itself was already terrifying to me.

776
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 2: They'd asked me a question, for instance, they'd say, okay,

777
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 2: well what happened to you? I'd say, well, they hurt me.

778
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 2: He'd be like, okay, well, how did they hurt you?

779
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:31,359
Speaker 2: And I was like, well, then molest me. And I'm

780
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:33,359
Speaker 2: like okay, well, how could you talk to us how

781
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:34,879
Speaker 2: And I was like, well, he raped me. And they'd

782
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:36,880
Speaker 2: be like, okay, well do you know what rape is?

783
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:38,400
Speaker 2: Can you explain to me what it is? And I

784
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 2: was like, well, he forced himself inside me, and they're like, okay, well,

785
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:43,320
Speaker 2: we need you to use the body parts, to the

786
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:45,880
Speaker 2: point that I finally had to say, he repeatedly thrust

787
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 2: his penis into my vagina, and already with them being men,

788
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 2: with them being religious, with them being part of that

789
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 2: age group, asking me to use anatomically correct body parts,

790
00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:01,280
Speaker 2: explicitly explaining the abuse that I went through, the rapes

791
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 2: that I went through, that was horrific to me. And

792
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 2: now the world has changed a lot. We have forensic

793
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 2: interviewers who are trauma informed, who you know, it doesn't

794
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:15,439
Speaker 2: have to be this totally unbalanced power dynamic of these

795
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:18,920
Speaker 2: two men and this little fifteen year old girl. I mean,

796
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 2: it's a very different place when it comes to that.

797
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 2: So thank goodness for that. So things have for the

798
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:28,000
Speaker 2: most part changed a lot since then. But if any

799
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 2: one of my children went through that, I wouldn't want

800
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 2: them to have to feel the embarrassment shame of just

801
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 2: saying the word penis. So that is something that has

802
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 2: been important to me. Also teaching them that their body

803
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 2: is theirs and that nobody has the right to touch them.

804
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 2: They absolutely have the right to defend themselves. I mean,

805
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:50,360
Speaker 2: for instance, I at least remember when I was a kid,

806
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 2: there was the zero tolerance policy, which was if you

807
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 2: were caught fighting in any form, all parties were suspended.

808
00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:59,839
Speaker 2: I've told my kids that if you get in tro

809
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 2: for protecting your body, for protecting yourself, I will stand

810
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:06,800
Speaker 2: by you. There will be no punishment from me, because

811
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 2: your body, your safety is more important to me than

812
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:15,399
Speaker 2: some silly rule about not fighting. Also, I was raised

813
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:18,439
Speaker 2: to be a good girl. I was raised to be polite, respectful, kind.

814
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 2: I think those are all good things. I think those

815
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,880
Speaker 2: are all things that we can still teach. However, because

816
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:26,840
Speaker 2: I was raised that way, I never viewed my body

817
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 2: as a tool in defense. Like I could not imagine

818
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 2: ever hitting someone or biting someone or striking someone. And

819
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 2: for me, yeah, I don't want my kids hitting each other.

820
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:41,360
Speaker 2: I don't want them hitting anyone else for no reason,

821
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:44,399
Speaker 2: Like I don't want needless violence. But I also want

822
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,240
Speaker 2: them to know that if anyone ever tries to do anything,

823
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,319
Speaker 2: I want them to use any resource, any tool they

824
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:52,799
Speaker 2: have to protect themselves. So if that means biting, I

825
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 2: want them to bite. Scratch, yes, go for the eyeballs, kick, punch, slap,

826
00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 2: do whatever it is you need to do. We've talked

827
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:03,959
Speaker 2: about personal space, what's appropriate, what's not appropriate. I've talked

828
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 2: to them so many times that they can tell me

829
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:08,919
Speaker 2: anything that they need to tell me about. Told them

830
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 2: why I don't let sleepovers happen. They don't like it,

831
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:15,360
Speaker 2: They very much don't like it. But I want to

832
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 2: say they understand why. At least they roll their eyes

833
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 2: and they're like, we know, we know. He just wants

834
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 2: to stay safe.

835
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 1: In twenty eleven, Elizabeth founded the Elizabeth Smart Foundation with

836
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 1: a specific mission to address the shame survivors carry around

837
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:35,759
Speaker 1: sexual violence. Because Elizabeth knew firsthand that the trauma of

838
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 1: what happened is compounded by a culture that makes survivors

839
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:45,399
Speaker 1: feel unworthy or somehow responsible. When you decided to start

840
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:49,799
Speaker 1: your foundation in twenty eleven and your advocacy how did

841
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,920
Speaker 1: you decide which aspect you would focus on.

842
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:56,719
Speaker 2: I wanted to address the aspect that I felt the

843
00:45:56,760 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 2: most shame from, which was the sexual abuse that I

844
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:05,360
Speaker 2: felt like had the longest negative impact in my life.

845
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 2: And if I felt that way and I was surrounded

846
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:12,200
Speaker 2: by a loving, kind family, then how were all the

847
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:15,760
Speaker 2: other survivors feeling who maybe did not have a loving

848
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 2: kind family to help them.

849
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:21,320
Speaker 1: What is something that It can be something we've discussed,

850
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 1: or can be something different, but something that at the

851
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 1: time you saw as a real low point and now

852
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:29,400
Speaker 1: you see it as having built you to the success

853
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 1: you are today.

854
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:34,760
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess I look back on my entire

855
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:39,400
Speaker 2: captivity and it reminds me how strong I can be,

856
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:41,920
Speaker 2: so that when I'm going through a hard time these days,

857
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 2: I can look back on my life and I can

858
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 2: be like, no, I survived that. If I could survive that,

859
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 2: I can survive this. I mean, for instance, this is

860
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:52,400
Speaker 2: just kind of funny. Like I got into reading marathons

861
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 2: a few years ago, and I've done all the training,

862
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:57,319
Speaker 2: like I did it the right way, like I had

863
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 2: a coach, and every marathon I think I ever ran,

864
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 2: I'd get to like between mile eighteen a mile twenty,

865
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:05,839
Speaker 2: and that is just when I would like hit that

866
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 2: wall and I'd sit down and be like, I am

867
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:11,320
Speaker 2: in so much pain. Not even why do I willingly

868
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 2: put myself through this? But why am I paying to

869
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:17,400
Speaker 2: go through this? Like? What do I get a banana

870
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 2: and a metal at the end? I am actually paying

871
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 2: to be hurt. My feet hurt, my arms hurt, my

872
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 2: back hurts, like I'm tired. Everything hurts.

873
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:29,359
Speaker 3: But then in those moments, I'd be like, Elizabeth, pull

874
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 3: yourself together. You survived nine months of captivity. If you

875
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:38,319
Speaker 3: can do that, you can finish this stupid marathon. Just

876
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 3: keep putting one foot in front of the other. You

877
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 3: can walk to the finish if you need to walk

878
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 3: to the finish. But you are strong enough to keep

879
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:49,319
Speaker 3: running as well. So I've always done that.

880
00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:52,439
Speaker 1: I do so badly with long running. I'm gonna start

881
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 1: channeling that.

882
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I understand.

883
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:57,000
Speaker 1: Do you think you'll pivot again?

884
00:47:58,000 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 2: I mean I would never take it off the tape.

885
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 2: There might come a day where I don't feel like

886
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 2: I'm making the difference that I want to be. Maybe

887
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 2: the energy output is too much for the impact that

888
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:16,839
Speaker 2: I'm achieving. I try to give myself enough grace to say,

889
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 2: like Elizabeth, if there comes a day where enough is enough,

890
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 2: that's okay, you can walk away. You will still be

891
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:26,560
Speaker 2: a good person. You will still be a kind person.

892
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 2: You gave everything you could give, and that's time to

893
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:32,799
Speaker 2: take the next step. So at this precise moment, are

894
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:36,360
Speaker 2: there days and I'm like, I'm exhausted, absolutely, but also

895
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:39,319
Speaker 2: like I still feel that drive that there's still a need.

896
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:41,359
Speaker 2: I still feel that drive that I can still make

897
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:44,879
Speaker 2: a difference. So for right now, I'm going to keep going.

898
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:48,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, you have told your story many times in many

899
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:52,360
Speaker 1: different ways. Is there a question you're surprised that nobody's

900
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:52,960
Speaker 1: ever asked you?

901
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:58,360
Speaker 2: Ugh, I feel like I've been asked so many questions.

902
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:00,799
Speaker 2: Even I have a part time I'm thinking of one

903
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:04,680
Speaker 2: that hasn't been asked. But I will say I appreciate

904
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 2: it when people and I know this is like the

905
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:10,920
Speaker 2: least interesting part, but where people just ask me silly

906
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:14,760
Speaker 2: stuff like I don't know what's your favorite TV show

907
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 2: or what was the last movie that you watch? What's

908
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 2: your favorite book? I don't know, I guess No, I'm like,

909
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:21,960
Speaker 2: I like unrelated questions.

910
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:26,319
Speaker 1: Well, to remember that you're a full person. Yeah, is

911
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 1: there anything we haven't talked about that you want to

912
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:29,239
Speaker 1: make sure that we do.

913
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:33,720
Speaker 2: I think I would just say to anyone who's listening,

914
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 2: if you have experienced sexual violence, abuse, really anything terrible

915
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:42,960
Speaker 2: at the hands of someone else, I would just say

916
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 2: to you that you were born with value that no

917
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:48,479
Speaker 2: one else can take away from you. But no matter

918
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 2: what someone else does to you, that does not diminish

919
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 2: your value as a human being. I think we live

920
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:57,759
Speaker 2: in a world full of labels, and one label will

921
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 2: never be enough to discribe bribe a single one of us,

922
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 2: because we are diverse, multi dimensional beings. I mean, one word,

923
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 2: it will never be enough to encapsulate each of us.

924
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:13,000
Speaker 2: So for as much as you feel like you are

925
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:15,760
Speaker 2: going to be labeled as that girl or that guy

926
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 2: or rape victim, that's not all who you are. You

927
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 2: are so much more than that, And you get to

928
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 2: define yourself and you get to do that by the

929
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:27,279
Speaker 2: way that you live your life every day and the

930
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:30,280
Speaker 2: decisions that you make going forward. And then I'd finally

931
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:32,239
Speaker 2: want to say, there are more good people in this

932
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:34,919
Speaker 2: world than there are bad people. We just hear about

933
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 2: the bad people a whole lot more than we hear

934
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:39,920
Speaker 2: about the good people. So don't give up. Find your people,

935
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 2: find your family, hold them close, and don't ever stop

936
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:44,719
Speaker 2: pursuing happiness.

937
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:48,759
Speaker 1: I know that there is somebody listening to this podcast,

938
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:51,880
Speaker 1: maybe many somebodies who need to hear that, and I

939
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 1: really appreciate you saying it. Thank you so much for

940
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:55,560
Speaker 1: joining us, Elizabeth.

941
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:56,920
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.

942
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 1: What Elizabeth has built out of the worst thing that

943
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 1: ever happened to her is truly extraordinary. She's chosen to

944
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:08,200
Speaker 1: be seen and known in public so that other survivors

945
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:10,360
Speaker 1: would know they aren't alone and they don't have to

946
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:13,799
Speaker 1: be ashamed. I am so grateful to Elizabeth for being

947
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:16,720
Speaker 1: so generous with her story, her honesty, and her time.

948
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 1: You can find her foundation at Elizabethsmartfoundation dot org and

949
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:24,400
Speaker 1: her podcast Smart Talks wherever you listen. If anything in

950
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:27,000
Speaker 1: today's episode brought something up for you and you need help,

951
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:29,680
Speaker 1: please reach out to someone you trust or visit rain

952
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 1: dot org. And if you found this conversation meaningful, share it.

953
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 1: You never know who needs to hear it. That's all

954
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:41,160
Speaker 1: for today. I'll see you next week. Thanks for listening

955
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 1: to she Pivots. If you like this episode, follow the

956
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:46,839
Speaker 1: show so you never miss a pivot story and share

957
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 1: it with one woman in your life who might need

958
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:51,400
Speaker 1: to hear it. To learn more about our guests and

959
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:54,880
Speaker 1: join our community, follow us on Instagram at she pivots

960
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:58,800
Speaker 1: the podcast our Subscribe to our substack for exclusive content

961
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 1: and behind the scenes conversation. You can also find us

962
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:07,240
Speaker 1: at shepivotspod dot com. This episode was produced and edited

963
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 1: by Paige Davis Janatt, with sound editing and mixing by

964
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:14,640
Speaker 1: Nina Pollock. Logistics and planning by Amastopic and Kendall Crupkin.

965
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:18,440
Speaker 1: Research by Christine Dickison. She Pivots is proud to be

966
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 1: a part of the iHeart Podcast Network. I endorse che

967
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Speaker 1: Pivots