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Speaker 1: Fellow Ridiculous Historians, we returned you with a classic episode.

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Speaker 1: It turns out that back in twenty eighteen, Noel and

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Speaker 1: I and oh our guy Gabe, remember Gabe Lucy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Gabeluzier of course.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we got super into a doomsday cult over there

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Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania.

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Speaker 2: It's true. It's a super cool bit of hidden history

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Speaker 2: tucked away in Philly and with a hicken Valley park. Gosh,

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Speaker 2: I hope to stand there with some of.

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Speaker 1: The stir Heart grounds.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. It's a cave where a legend has it, a

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Speaker 2: doomsday cult once made their home, their HQ, whatever you

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Speaker 2: want to call, where a cult hangs out and does

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Speaker 2: their cult thing.

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Speaker 1: Let's roll it. Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Well well, well, no, old friend, here we are on

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Speaker 1: Ridiculous History, about to about to dive into a topic

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Speaker 1: that I find endlessly fascinating.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, We're going to dive into a seahole. What is

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Speaker 2: a seahole? A cult, a cult hole?

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Speaker 1: Yes? Or a cave hole?

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Speaker 2: All right?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: When I say a seahole, it's more of a c

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Speaker 2: rectangle really, yeah, because it's a it's a cave, a

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Speaker 2: man made cave with a rectangular door that was one

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Speaker 2: of the first ever homes to America's like original doomsday cult.

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Speaker 1: My name is Ben. This Ridiculous History is I think

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Speaker 1: I just mentioned, And of course we are joined as

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Speaker 1: always with our super producer Casey Pegram. Know the rumors

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Speaker 1: are true. We're talking about a legitimate doomsday cult. And

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Speaker 1: you know in another show that you and I do together,

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Speaker 1: we run into cults on a on a like bi

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Speaker 1: monthly basis.

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Speaker 2: Semi regular. Yeah, But in Ridiculous History, man, we don't

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Speaker 2: deal in rumors. What's the brass tax, my man? Yes,

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Speaker 2: the brass tax. Take us to a place very familiar

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Speaker 2: with everyone here known as Philadelphia. See the Cave of

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Speaker 2: Kelpius is tucked away in a remote section of the

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Speaker 2: modern day Fairmont Park in Philadelphia, but it's very old.

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Speaker 1: You could walk past it and not really notice the

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Speaker 1: history now unless you went inside, right.

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Speaker 2: That's right. In fact, a lot of places that describe

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Speaker 2: it say, even if you know where you're going, you're

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Speaker 2: probably a lot less likely to find it rather than

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Speaker 2: just stumble upon it because it is in like a

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Speaker 2: heavily wooded kind of blair Witch kind of environment. Right,

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Speaker 2: It's along the banks of the Wissahickon Creek, and in

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Speaker 2: sixteen ninety four, a very smart fellow, a scholar, something

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Speaker 2: of a New Age mystic type, right by the name

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Speaker 2: of Johannes Kelpius. He brought forty of his followers, all

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Speaker 2: learned men, from their home in Transylvania, to the newly

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Speaker 2: settled Germantown, Pennsylvania, because they were escaping religious persecution, because

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Speaker 2: they were they weren't playing by the book, no good book.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they had their own playbook spiritually, and they

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Speaker 1: believed that the end was nigh. Johannes Kelpius was born

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Speaker 1: Johann kelp in Transylvania. As you said in sixteen sixty seven.

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Speaker 2: Is that nominative determinism? Do you think his family, like,

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Speaker 2: we're maritime folk.

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Speaker 1: I wonder that's a good question, you know. Also, what

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Speaker 1: I noticed is given the timeline, this is way before

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Speaker 1: Bram Stoker made Transylvania a scary place.

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Speaker 2: That's true.

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Speaker 1: Is that weird?

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Speaker 2: It's going to come up in the next episode We're

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Speaker 2: going to do I think as well? Oh it is,

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Speaker 2: it is stay tuned spoiler alert. But yeah, so he

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Speaker 2: brought these forty they had I think he himself had

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Speaker 2: what you were starting his chronology. He was born oh yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: and then he was educated m hm yeah. He completed

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Speaker 2: his education at Bavaria's University of Altdorf, and at the

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Speaker 2: time it was a very respected high falutint institution there

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Speaker 2: in Europe. And his name change occurred not because of

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Speaker 2: vanity so much as because the common practice for scholars

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Speaker 2: at this day and age was to latinize your name.

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Speaker 2: Sol became Kelpius. Would mind become Brownius, that's.

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Speaker 1: Interesting, Bolinnius, Brownius, Pegrimius, Pigrammius, Pagrimius, Begroomius. So while he's

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Speaker 1: at university, he becomes attracted to, acquainted with, enamored of

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Speaker 1: a religious movement known as Pietism. This was a reaction

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Speaker 1: against the Orthodox Lutheranism of the time, and then it

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Speaker 1: later expanded to include beliefs that, you know, as you said,

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Speaker 1: with his followers, beliefs that were considered heretical, strange, forbidden knowledge,

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Speaker 1: possibly a cult. And as he became more and more

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Speaker 1: immersed in this world, he also began to gather different

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Speaker 1: people around him. He was a follower of a guy

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Speaker 1: named Johann Jacob Zimmerman and Zimmerman formed a small group

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Speaker 1: of like minded people called the Chapter of Perfection.

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Speaker 2: It's true, and actually I saw him described as such

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Speaker 2: as a noted German mathematician, astronomer, and defrockt Lutheran minister.

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Speaker 2: And you know what happens when they defrock you, right, right,

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Speaker 2: That's like when you pull all the metals off the

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Speaker 2: general's chest, you know, yeah, and send him with his

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Speaker 2: tail between his legs.

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Speaker 1: You are no longer allowed to practice the spiritual beliefs.

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Speaker 2: Right, give me your badge and gun, detective.

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Speaker 1: Exactly, that's the good way to put it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And this group led by Zimmerman that Kelpius is a

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Speaker 1: member of right right around this time, he's maybe twenty

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Speaker 1: years old and most of the people in the group

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Speaker 1: are around his age. And the group believed that there

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Speaker 1: was a new spiritual age imminent, their version of the

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Speaker 1: one thousand year idea of Christ returning, and that they

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Speaker 1: had to prepare for this. And I love that you

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Speaker 1: mentioned Zimmerman being an astronomer, because that was the quantitative

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Speaker 1: basis for a lot of his arguments.

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Speaker 2: That's right, And I just want to say too, Zimmerman

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Speaker 2: was kind of the one who initially unless I'm reading

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Speaker 2: this thing correctly. Initially put together this expedition, you know,

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Speaker 2: it was like a six month boat trip. Yeah yeah,

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Speaker 2: from from there from Europe to Germantown or Philadelphia area.

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Speaker 2: But he passed away before it could take off, Right,

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Speaker 2: So Kelpius kind of became the new de facto leader

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Speaker 2: of the group.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the neo Zimmermann.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: This is an interesting part of the story that I

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Speaker 1: could not I don't know if you found anything, but

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Speaker 1: I couldn't solve one mystery about this. Estimates say that

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Speaker 1: around sixteen ninety two, this group, the Chapter of Perfection,

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Speaker 1: received an offer of free land in Pennsylvania in Germantown

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Speaker 1: what you mentioned, and a free boat ride over. But

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Speaker 1: they received it anonymously. Now I had read somewhere that

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Speaker 1: was from the governor of Pennsylvania. Oh okay, I was

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Speaker 1: trying to, you know, encourage new settlers to come in,

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Speaker 1: and offers of religious tolerance was a big part of

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Speaker 1: early Pennsylvania settlements, right, Okay, that makes a lot of sense.

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Speaker 2: Maybe it wasn't the government though, but I know that

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Speaker 2: definitely was an effort from the powers that be in

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Speaker 2: this particular part of the colonies to attract more religiously

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Speaker 2: free thinking types.

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Speaker 1: And to populate the land with Europeans of course too. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think you must be spot on. You know. I

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Speaker 1: love the tantalizing hint of an anonymous person, but I

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Speaker 1: bet you are one hundred percent correct that it was

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Speaker 1: the governing structure of the time. But as you said, Zimmerman,

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Speaker 1: right around the time they're about to leave for what

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Speaker 1: would become the United States, Zimmerman dies in August of

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Speaker 1: sixteen ninety three, Kelpius becomes the commander. He leads them.

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Speaker 1: He leads his group of forty people to a ridge

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Speaker 1: there above the Wissahicken Gorge. That's such a fun word

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Speaker 1: to say, too. And there along the fortieth parallel, Kelpius

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Speaker 1: builds a forty foot square tabernacle because in their philosophy

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Speaker 1: and their understanding, forty is like the best number, It's

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Speaker 1: the most important magical number.

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Speaker 2: I did just find. It was William Penn who apparently

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Speaker 2: invited the group, And William Penn was the governor, and

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Speaker 2: I think kind of governed Pennsylvania like its own tear,

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Speaker 2: like its own entire amous autonomous thing. Yeah, that's right,

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Speaker 2: so Bend, you know, millennialism.

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Speaker 1: Is millennialism, from what I understand, is the belief that

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Speaker 1: the world will expire at a significant date, either either

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Speaker 1: completely end or some great change will occur. Is that correct?

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Speaker 2: That it's big time correct, and that is what these

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Speaker 2: folks were all about. You may have seen the Fox

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Speaker 2: television show kind of a bit of an X Files

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Speaker 2: ripoff called Millennium, but it was all about like the

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Speaker 2: end times and the end of days and stuff. But

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Speaker 2: there's a couple of different interpretations of millennialism, and I'm

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Speaker 2: taking this from the New World Encyclopedia. One of them

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Speaker 2: is this notion that Christ will come back to Earth

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Speaker 2: and establish himself an entire new kingdom and rule for

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Speaker 2: one thousand years, at which point will come the Reckoning,

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Speaker 2: you know, or some kind of calling of those that

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Speaker 2: deserve to stick around and those that have to go.

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Speaker 2: Then there's another version of it where the second Coming

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Speaker 2: occurs with an immediate culling of the wicked through some

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Speaker 2: sort of cataclysmic event to trigger a new world order

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Speaker 2: kind of thing. But whichever one they believed in, the

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Speaker 2: fact is there was a very specific part of the

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Speaker 2: Bible that was a foundation of this belief system in general,

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Speaker 2: and it's obviously the Book of Revelations, and there's a

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Speaker 2: particular passage that gave this group one of their many monikers.

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Speaker 2: They had a handful. And the passage is called the

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Speaker 2: Woman in the Dragon, and it's from Revelations twelve through sixteen.

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Speaker 2: It's gonna read you a little bit of it. A

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Speaker 2: great sign appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the son,

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Speaker 2: with the moon under her feet and a crown of

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Speaker 2: twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried

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Speaker 2: out in pain as she was about to give birth.

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Speaker 2: Then another sign appeared in heaven, an enormous red dragon

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Speaker 2: with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on

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Speaker 2: its head. Skip a little bit. Then war broke out

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Speaker 2: in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon,

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Speaker 2: and the dragon and his angels fought back, but he

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Speaker 2: was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.

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Speaker 2: The great dragon was hurled down that ancient serpent called

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Speaker 2: the devil or Satan, who leads the whole world astray.

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Speaker 2: He was hurled to the earth and his angels with him.

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Speaker 2: So it's this idea of hell on earth kind of

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Speaker 2: And what was what were some of the names of

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Speaker 2: their group, starting with the one that was taken from

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Speaker 2: this passage that they so held so dear.

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Speaker 1: They were collectively known by several names. The weirdest one

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Speaker 1: was the Woman of the Wilderness. Forty guys calling themselves

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Speaker 1: the Woman of the Wilderness. It wasn't even like the

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Speaker 1: women collective of.

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Speaker 2: The Woman of the Wilderness, Society of the just the woman.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the weird That's the weird thing about it

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Speaker 1: is history doesn't seem to completely agree. Some people will

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Speaker 1: tell you they were just collectively called the Woman in

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Speaker 1: the Wilderness, and then you'll find a couple of other

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Speaker 1: places where they say they were the Society of the

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Speaker 1: Woman of the Wilderness, which makes more sense.

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Speaker 2: But my favorite, though, is that they were the Hermits

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Speaker 2: of the Ridge. M Yeah, that's like the name of

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Speaker 2: a D and D party, you know.

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Speaker 1: Or the name of the name of like a good

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Speaker 1: old folksy prairie home companion story.

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Speaker 2: That's true, the old hermit of the ridge. Because the

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Speaker 2: place we're talking about today, the Cave of Kelpius. Folks

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Speaker 2: in Philadelphia area just call it the Hermit's Cave.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yep. And the legend has it that Kelpius lived

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Speaker 1: and meditated in this cave built in the hillside of

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Speaker 1: the ravine, and that it was you'll hear some people

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Speaker 1: say that it was just an old spring house where

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Speaker 1: accasionally Kelpius, where some other person would spend the night.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and then he would return to his summer house,

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Speaker 2: you know, in warmer No, I'm kidding, the spring house

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Speaker 2: like a well house or something like some sort of

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Speaker 2: enclosure where there would be a well and a source

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Speaker 2: of fresh water, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So while they established themselves in what

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Speaker 1: became known as Hermit's Glenn or the Hermit's Cave in

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Speaker 1: the Hermit's Glenn, they also made an impression on the town.

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Speaker 1: There's a nearby road you can find today, we believe,

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Speaker 1: called Hermit Lane. So this is established. It's not very

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Speaker 1: well known, i'd say, outside of Philadelphia, but it has

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Speaker 1: left a physical trace on the city.

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Speaker 2: That's right. And there's actually a fantastic article from Attles

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Speaker 2: Obscura called the Cave of Kelpius where America's first doomsday

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Speaker 2: called awaited the End of the World, And there's a

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Speaker 2: little sidebar on it that has the coordinates of the cave.

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Speaker 2: Because it's not exactly something you can Google map to,

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Speaker 2: because again, like we said, you kind of just have

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Speaker 2: to wander around and find it yourself. But it is

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Speaker 2: technically on Hermit Lane.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's You'll have a hard time getting male

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Speaker 1: sent there exactly, but you can find it with the

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Speaker 1: coordinates and the space from what we understand, the meeting

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Speaker 1: space of the hermits, or the society or the just

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Speaker 1: the woman in the of the wilderness included the following things.

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Speaker 1: Had a rudimentary observatory where the monks would practice astronomy,

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Speaker 1: and this is thought to be the first observatory built

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Speaker 1: in the New World, the quote unquote New World.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and astronomy was a huge deal for these folks,

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Speaker 2: and there's there's a sense that it was because they

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Speaker 2: were on the lookout for I'm gonna call them extra terrestrials,

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Speaker 2: but I almost want to say like heavenly like angels

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Speaker 2: or something, signs and wonders, because they really did believe that,

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Speaker 2: you know, like that passages that maybe the devils were

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Speaker 2: going to come flying down from the sky. What's that

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Speaker 2: what's that line? I think it's Batman v. Superman where

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Speaker 2: he says, turns out the devils don't come from below,

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Speaker 2: they come from above. Yeah, you know, he seemed to

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Speaker 2: have that in mind when he was looking, and it

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Speaker 2: was a very for the time advanced telescope.

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Speaker 1: Right, absolutely, Yeah, they were able to have a very

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Speaker 1: clear view. Because we have to remember it's very easy

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Speaker 1: for us nowadays as a species to see a mystical

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Speaker 1: belief that one group or person has and take that

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Speaker 1: to mean that we should dismiss their scientific beliefs. It's

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Speaker 1: not the case. These things exist hand in hand, and

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Speaker 1: to these people, they were not contradictory, sort of the

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Speaker 1: same way that Isaac Newton had some really out there

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Speaker 1: esoteric beliefs.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, are that Rdyard Kipling was kind of a racist?

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Speaker 1: I was absolutely right. Oh god, what a terrible person.

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Speaker 2: The interesting thing too about Kelpia is that we don't know,

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Speaker 2: We don't have a lot of primary sources on him,

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Speaker 2: so there's a lot of conjecture. And when you go

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Speaker 2: to the cave of Kelpius's there's no artifacts left behind,

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Speaker 2: there's no furniture, it's just out there. There is a marker. Right,

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Speaker 2: I was put there by a little society. We know

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Speaker 2: a bit about their philosophy, don't we been the Rosicrution,

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Speaker 2: the Order of the Roscretions. That's the rose Cross.

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Speaker 1: That's right, and all the Order of the Rosy Cross

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Speaker 1: built a marker for this. And you know, if you

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Speaker 1: went back in the forties, you would see some stuff

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Speaker 1: in the cave, like you'd see a chimney that was

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Speaker 1: there for a while.

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Speaker 2: I think it got vandalized or damaged beyond repair and

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Speaker 2: so they removed it. But I saw this cool video

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Speaker 2: that it was cool for a minute and then it

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Speaker 2: started to lean a little heavily into some not true stuff,

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Speaker 2: but it did have a really cool walkthrough of the cave.

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Speaker 2: And I don't know if this was added later. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's certainly possible. But there's a there's a cross and

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Speaker 2: then an upside down cross right next to it, and

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Speaker 2: the idea being that, like you know, one is the

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Speaker 2: sign of Christ, the other is the sign of the devil.

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Speaker 2: And then throughout the space there are some other kind

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Speaker 2: of strange coded messages. But one thing we do know

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Speaker 2: is real and not just you know, passers by having

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Speaker 2: a laugh, is this rosicruci marker that identifies Kelpius as

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Speaker 2: being the first Rosicrucian in the New World.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's legit and the chronology works out. The

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Speaker 1: thing about these semi secret orders, these mysterious esoteric groups,

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Speaker 1: is that they can often just appoint themselves in, you know,

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Speaker 1: a point authority to themselves. But according to the tradition,

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Speaker 1: he's not only the first rouse Krucian, he's the first

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Speaker 1: Ruse Crucian master. Right, there's some neat articles about this,

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Speaker 1: Like you can find a lot of local Pennsylvania history places.

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Speaker 1: I really the explore pahistory dot com story about the marker,

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Speaker 1: and you can read both the modern marker that is

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Speaker 1: in place that tells you about the Kelpiest community.

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Speaker 2: That's the new one.

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Speaker 1: That's right, that's the newer one, and then you can

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Speaker 1: see the other older stuff that's also spread around there.

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Speaker 1: It's a shame about the vandalism, you know what I

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Speaker 1: mean that really that really broke my heart. But we

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Speaker 1: for we forgot to mention. Okay, so they're millennials, millenearians difference.

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Speaker 1: There we go, and they had a very specific time

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Speaker 1: frame for this last judgment, and it was sixteen ninety four,

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Speaker 1: the year that they all got together in this area, right,

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Speaker 1: or when they really doubled down but that time came

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Speaker 1: and went. See that's the problem with a lot of

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Speaker 1: doomsday cults. They'll predict something and then that moment will

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Speaker 1: pass and the world will spin on it as it will,

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Speaker 1: and then they have to find a new way to

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Speaker 1: understand this. So, according to the Chestnut Hill Local with

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Speaker 1: the title the Rapture that Never Came, the story of

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Speaker 1: the Hermits of the Wissa Hicken. According to them, when

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Speaker 1: sixteen ninety four came and went without a last judgment,

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Speaker 1: Kelpius and the society said, you know what, we're going

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Speaker 1: to look toward the year seventeen hundred. Certainly the advent

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Speaker 1: of this new century will bring about the end of

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Speaker 1: mankind and the return of Jesus Christ. I mean, you

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Speaker 1: gotta hope, you know, hope for something better. Right, And

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Speaker 1: the year arrived there was not, from their perspective, a

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Speaker 1: return of a Messiah. And then they started to, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, the members began to get tired of these continual.

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Speaker 2: Claims, Well, did you hear of the Church of the

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Speaker 2: sub Genius Ben Yes, yes, sort of a joke cult,

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Speaker 2: kind of I mean, yes, I'm gonna leave it. That

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Speaker 2: of a joke call where they worship supposedly this like

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Speaker 2: fifties clip art like Dad looking ahead with the pipe

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Speaker 2: called Reverend Jr. Bob Dobbs, and the fundamental concept of

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Speaker 2: SubGenius is slack. But a big part of them is

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Speaker 2: they had this thing called X Day, or supposedly these

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Speaker 2: aliens are gonna come and do very much a thing

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Speaker 2: that I think the Order of the Hermits or whatever

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Speaker 2: you want to call them, we're hoping for. But they

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Speaker 2: got the day wrong because they looked at it upside down,

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Speaker 2: the big.

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Speaker 1: Dummies, you know.

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Speaker 2: And that's just sort of like a little bit thumbing

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Speaker 2: of the nose that a lot of these death cults

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Speaker 2: where they always get something a little off and then

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Speaker 2: you know, oh it'll be next time. Just keep stick

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Speaker 2: with us, you know.

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Speaker 1: And again, in the defense of this group of Kelpius's community,

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Speaker 1: they were not super aggressive, crazy violent agro people.

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Speaker 2: Like you said. The community even kind of enjoyed their presence. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: very gentle types, it would seem.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it would seem so. And then as they began

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Speaker 1: to as enthusiasm at least began to taper off, they

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Speaker 1: saw the end of the cult becoming more and more immediate.

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Speaker 1: Because Kelpius it turns out that living in caves with

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Speaker 1: crushing low temperatures, especially in the winter months, turns out

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Speaker 1: it's not good for you, no matter how well informed

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Speaker 1: you are, and no matter how talented of an astronomer

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Speaker 1: you are.

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 2: We also find that a lot of times people that

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Speaker 2: are like really driven and obsessed with the quest for

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Speaker 2: knowledge sometimes don't take the best care of their physical

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Speaker 2: vessels because they're so busy doing all the maths and stuff,

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Speaker 2: you know, that they just got time to eat or

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Speaker 2: you know, put on a blanket.

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Speaker 1: And Kelpius became ill with tuberculosis. It's around seventeen oh five.

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Speaker 1: He had to go away from the Tabernacle area and

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Speaker 1: move into the home of a former member who had

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Speaker 1: already left the organization in Germantown Proper, and he he lived.

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Speaker 1: He lived for about three more years.

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Speaker 2: I believe he was early forties when he passed away.

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Speaker 2: Seemed quite quite unfortunate and young.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, he never really recovered from that bout of tuberculosis,

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Speaker 1: and he died in seventeen oh eight. His followers returned,

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Speaker 1: they took his body to the tabernacle. They buried him

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Speaker 1: in the garden, and they had a ceremony where they

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Speaker 1: released a dove as they were lowering him into the ground.

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Speaker 1: The society itself survived for about another ten years or so,

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Speaker 1: but without the same drive or enthusiasm.

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Speaker 2: It was.

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Speaker 1: At some point it got down to just six hardcore believers.

387
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Speaker 1: But here we end some of the facts and we

388
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Speaker 1: get to some of the real juicy stuff, the legends.

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Speaker 2: Oh man, this is fun stuff. This is much more

390
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Speaker 2: in the realm of our other program. Stuff they don't

391
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:55,960
Speaker 2: want you to know, but it is just so much fun, great,

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Speaker 2: so great. So. One of Kelpius's most did confidants and

393
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Speaker 2: followers was a guy by the name of Geisler. Was

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Speaker 2: his first name, Daniel, Daniel Geisler, and he was kind

395
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Speaker 2: of trying to adhere to the mystical Guru's last wishes

396
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Speaker 2: as he was on his deathbed, right.

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Speaker 1: Because Kelpius gave Geisler a very particular artifact. It was

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Speaker 1: a box, but it was locked.

399
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Speaker 2: Yeah. I like to refer to it as the mystery Box.

400
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 2: I think of that thing in Mulholland Drive, you know,

401
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,280
Speaker 2: where they pull out the box and the camera zooms

402
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:40,200
Speaker 2: in and then everything gets real weird. It's like that,

403
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Speaker 2: you know, no one knows what's in the box. But

404
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:47,200
Speaker 2: there's a fantastic article from the Voice, The Philly Voice

405
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 2: in fact, called did Wissa, Hick and Hermit have fabled

406
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Speaker 2: Philosopher's Stone? Huh? Yeah, Ben, remind us what's the philosopher's stone?

407
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Speaker 3: Ah?

408
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Speaker 1: Yes? Well?

409
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Speaker 2: In the.

410
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Speaker 1: Common way to put it, without making it a crazy

411
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:08,119
Speaker 1: metaphor for something, is that it's a legendary substance that

412
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Speaker 1: you hear a lot about in alchemical writings that can

413
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Speaker 1: turn things into other things. It can transmute substances, so

414
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Speaker 1: you'll hear stuff like turning lead into gold, for instance. Right,

415
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,880
Speaker 1: that sounds cool. Yeah, it sounds like a great stone

416
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 1: to have. Right. It may not be a physical stone

417
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 1: in all the stories. Sometimes it's just the substance, and

418
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 1: sometimes it's thought to be more of a symbol of

419
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 1: a mystical term for the great work in every effort

420
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:44,639
Speaker 1: by alchemist to discover this substance or create it or

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Speaker 1: reproduce it, where those efforts were collectively known as the

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Speaker 1: great Work.

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Speaker 2: The Great Work.

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Speaker 1: So the idea that a mystic like Kelpius would possess

425
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Speaker 1: this philosopher's stone is a amazing and astonishing to anybody

426
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Speaker 1: who is still searching for it. No, we have to

427
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 1: keep in mind. You know, this is the early early

428
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Speaker 1: eighteenth century, so belief in alchemy is still, you know,

429
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Speaker 1: much more widespread than it is in twenty eighteen. I

430
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Speaker 1: would say.

431
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 2: So Kelpius is on his deathbed in the throes of

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Speaker 2: the dreaded tuberculosis. This was the early seventeen hundred and

433
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:28,200
Speaker 2: seventy seventeen o eight and his confidant there Geisler. Geisler is,

434
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 2: I'm just painting a picture here, kneeling by his bedside,

435
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 2: and say, master, Master, what can I do for you

436
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 2: to ease your suffering? Anything? This is totally how it

437
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,720
Speaker 2: went down. And to that Kelpius says, well, there is

438
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 2: one thing, my son, Come closer. You know how they

439
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 2: always do that when they're on the deathbed. Then come closer.

440
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 1: I don't have discuss dray, Come closer.

441
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:52,879
Speaker 2: I want you to take hence this box my arcaneum,

442
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:55,400
Speaker 2: and I want you to throw it in the river,

443
00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 2: the shool Kill River. How would you say that kill? Yeah,

444
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,399
Speaker 2: I want you to throw it in the watery depths

445
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,120
Speaker 2: of the shoy Kill. And you know, to this our

446
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 2: boy Geesler, he said, sure, yeah, well of course, and

447
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 2: then and then promptly didn't didn't didn't do it.

448
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:20,360
Speaker 1: And the the great part of a legends when when

449
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 1: he comes back and he's like, all done, boss uh Kelpius.

450
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 2: He says, come closer.

451
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:30,399
Speaker 1: Yeah. He raises himself up and he expends what little

452
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 1: energy has to point at him and say, Daniel, thou

453
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 1: hast not done as I bid thee Nor hast thou

454
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 1: cast the casket et into the river, but hast he

455
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:41,639
Speaker 1: didn't near the shore.

456
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:46,640
Speaker 2: And then he was like, you got me, boss, I

457
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:48,400
Speaker 2: was going to try to pick that lock.

458
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:50,920
Speaker 1: And and so now he's convinced.

459
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, he's definitely he's definitely convinced. And so he

460
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:55,879
Speaker 2: he he, you know, he finally does it. And what

461
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 2: a disappointment though this guy was, yeah, well, what kind

462
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 2: of fo are you if you can't just follow simple

463
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 2: instructions of a dying mystic?

464
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:04,919
Speaker 1: Is a dying wish?

465
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 2: Seriously?

466
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 1: So what happens though, when he actually does throw it away?

467
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 2: Well, according to this account, which was given by Geesler

468
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:20,680
Speaker 2: to a guy by the name of Henry Mullenberg, who

469
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 2: in the Muhlenberg College in Allentown, Pennsylvania, was named after

470
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 2: and also he I think he's he started the North

471
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 2: American Lutheran Church or he was a big force in

472
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,640
Speaker 2: establishing the North American Lutheran Church. This is again from

473
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:42,159
Speaker 2: this Philly Voice article. It's a very fabulous account because

474
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 2: he says, and this is this is all you know

475
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,159
Speaker 2: written down, that as soon as he threw it in

476
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,400
Speaker 2: the river exploded.

477
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:54,680
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, like is it? So, help help me get

478
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 1: this straight. Did it explode? Was it a flash of lightning?

479
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 1: Did it come from the box? That's what it almost

480
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 1: sounds like.

481
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a little weird. It's it's it's written as

482
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 2: though it produced some kind of alchemical reaction, some sort

483
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 2: of elemental that's the way I'm looking for reaction. Because

484
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 2: it's described as producing quote producing flashes of lightning and

485
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:21,920
Speaker 2: peals of thunder.

486
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 1: It made me think when we first were reading about

487
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 1: this of Indiana Jones and the readers of the Lost Arc,

488
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:31,160
Speaker 1: remember where they find somebody ignores the advice and they

489
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:35,399
Speaker 1: open the arc and people melt and there's all this

490
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 1: strange yea at the time, amazing special effects.

491
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's also been forever memorialized in an amazing gift

492
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 2: that you can drop whenever someone says something crazy. I yeh,

493
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 2: feel a third down on one of the Nazi's face

494
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 2: melting off and eyes bugging out.

495
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 1: There we go this account. We should also mention I'm

496
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 1: glad you brought up Henry Mouhnberg because Geisler didn't tell

497
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: the pastor about this immediately after, right, it was a

498
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 1: number of years.

499
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for sure. But this, this Philly Voice article

500
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 2: does a really good job of pointing out how this

501
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 2: sounds a whole lot more like a kind of literary

502
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 2: device rather than an actual account. You know. They compare

503
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 2: it to King Arthur asking his follower to throw Excalibur

504
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 2: into the lake and then the lady of the lake

505
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 2: reaches aloft and grabs excalibur, you know what I mean,

506
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 2: Like they would have known about those stories. Well, yeah,

507
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 2: but it's like, it's it's very odd that he would

508
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 2: tell this very specific and quite incredible account that to

509
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 2: what end, to help spread the mythos of of this

510
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 2: this mystic.

511
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, that's that's the interesting question, because obviously

512
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 1: they would have they were quite educated for the time,

513
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 1: they were aware of folklore. They would understand the connections.

514
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 1: Oh and it can't believe we forgot the fun fact there.

515
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 1: These guys are famous for another reason because Christopher Witt

516
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 1: in seventeen oh five painted Kelpia, since believed to be

517
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 1: the oldest oil painting in the US.

518
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 2: Oh, I didn't catch that.

519
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 1: It has nothing to do with magic or allegations there.

520
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 2: Now, art is its own kind of magic and its

521
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:21,719
Speaker 2: own reward.

522
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 1: That's awesome. That's a good way to look at it.

523
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 1: So this account may be fictitious, it may be solely

524
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 1: a legend.

525
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this speculation is coming from a historian from

526
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 2: the Historical Society of Pennsylvania by the name of Dan Roth,

527
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 2: who was interviewed for this piece on Philly Voice dot

528
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 2: com that was written by John Kopp, who was a

529
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 2: staff writer for Philly Voice. So where does that leave

530
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 2: us today?

531
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 1: Oh?

532
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 2: I do have one other thing. I did see this

533
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 2: video that I was talking about earlier, that it's kind

534
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 2: of cool for a point and then it really starts

535
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 2: to get into like and he was totally looking for aliens,

536
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 2: and Ben Franklin liked it was believed in aliens too,

537
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 2: and Ben Franklin supposedly got possession of all of the

538
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 2: relics and remaining materials that were ever in this cave.

539
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 2: But I found no mention of that anywhere with any

540
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 2: connection between Ben Franklin, other than the fact that the

541
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 2: American Philosophical Society, which was founded by Ben Franklin, does

542
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 2: have two books of Kelpius is in their library. One

543
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 2: of them is the Diarrheum of Magister Johannes Kelpius, and

544
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 2: that is from nineteen seventeen reprinted, so it's not even

545
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 2: an original. And then they also have the Journal of

546
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 2: Johannes Kelpius, Magister of the Hermits on the Ridge in Pennsylvania,

547
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 2: sixteen ninety four seventy eight. So those two I think

548
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 2: are the only surviving actual accounts from Kelpius himself. Yeah,

549
00:31:58,160 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 2: a lot of there were there maybe was some other

550
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 2: correspondents or something like that, but it was not a

551
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 2: whole lot. None of his actual philosophy is codified in

552
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 2: any kind of like expansive works.

553
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 1: Right right, Those those are the two books that we're

554
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 1: aware of. There is one other, I thought, fascinating paranormal story.

555
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 1: If we want to continue getting with the man. Okay,

556
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 1: so we said that after his death, the Brotherhood, the

557
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 1: society dwindles down at one point. There are just six

558
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 1: let's call them hardcore monks, zelots, ardent believers, and they

559
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 1: were led by a guy named Conrad Mathi Mathi. Let's

560
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 1: go with that.

561
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, like ah, Mathi, there we go perfect.

562
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 1: But eventually the group starts breaking down further and further

563
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: and further. And that guy we mentioned, Christopher Witt, who

564
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 1: moved to Germantown. He also quit the uh the group,

565
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 1: but he continued a lot of his hobbies that he

566
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 1: had from his time I'm in the group, and he

567
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 1: did pretty well. By seventeen eighteen, he was a wealthy man.

568
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 1: He had bought over one hundred and twenty acres of land,

569
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 1: but he was always under suspicion in town of being

570
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 1: get this, null a hexenmeister.

571
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 2: Is it like a witchy dude?

572
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 4: Yeah?

573
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, so people thought he was maybe using his magic.

574
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 1: His magical abilities were his esoteric wisdom to get ahead

575
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 1: in the secular world. And they also continued to provide

576
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 1: services of a paranormal or spiritual type to the community.

577
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 1: This guy I just mentioned, Conrad Mathi, cast horoscopes, He

578
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 1: performed exorcisms. He said he could travel outside of his

579
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 1: own body. There was a book called The Pietist of

580
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 1: Provincial Pennsylvania, written by Like Yes, written by a guy

581
00:33:55,400 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 1: named Julius Sache, who says the following about Conrad. A

582
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 1: captain's wife allegedly asked Conrad in seventeen forty when he

583
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 1: could expect her husband's ship to return. So the guy

584
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:12,719
Speaker 1: goes into his chamber, lays down in a trance for

585
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 1: an hour. Then he wakes up. He comes back in

586
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 1: and he tells this lady her husband is at a

587
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 1: London coffee house and he's preparing to set sail for

588
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 1: the New World. And when the captain returns, you know,

589
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 1: several months later whatever, he meets Conrad. And then the

590
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 1: first thing he says, again according to this story, is

591
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,320
Speaker 1: that he was in a London coffee house and saw

592
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 1: the dude Conrad himself, staring at him. And he said

593
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:44,240
Speaker 1: he remembered the encounter because apparently the old man Conrad

594
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 1: had come up and yelled to him about not writing

595
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 1: to his wife. That's got to be total malarchy, rude.

596
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 1: But what a great story.

597
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:53,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good one. Good way to cap this

598
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 2: one off. You got anything else?

599
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:55,279
Speaker 3: Uh?

600
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 1: You know what I think we can call it? Oh? No,

601
00:34:59,040 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 1: do you hear that.

602
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:00,360
Speaker 2: Really.

603
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 1: Oh man, it's.

604
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 2: Been so long.

605
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 1: We had such a streak going.

606
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 3: It's actually it's been so.

607
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 1: Long Jonathan Strickland quiz. You've been working on that laugh.

608
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 2: You've been celebrating. Gentlemen. Missing satellite's weird, have you. It's

609
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 2: like the way you miss a like a sharp pain

610
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:24,839
Speaker 2: in your side.

611
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 3: Well suddenly you wake up one morning and you think, oh,

612
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 3: that's different.

613
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 2: Yes, that's kind of miss it.

614
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 3: Now, that's very sweet of you.

615
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 1: Day after a chiropractor kind of longing.

616
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 3: Well, just consider me your spinal adjustment of love. Here.

617
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 5: I am all right to give you yet another perplexing scenario.

618
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 3: Whereupon you must decide whether or not it is truth

619
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,240
Speaker 3: or fiction within the span of thirty minutes.

620
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 2: You know, I put forth a perplexing scenario or a

621
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 2: notion that my theory is that you we haven't seen

622
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:56,760
Speaker 2: you for so long because you're going around and messing

623
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:58,799
Speaker 2: with other podcasts that we don't know about.

624
00:35:58,960 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 1: Is that true?

625
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 3: I can neither confirm nor deny.

626
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 1: Have you been podcast cheating on us? Man?

627
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 3: I listen, Ben, listen, listen, hey, listen, Ben. Things are

628
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 3: complicated right now. Check my Facebook status.

629
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 4: Oh man, it's just you never know when someone needs

630
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 4: to be, you know, shown up by wow, having to

631
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:25,319
Speaker 4: prove their ability.

632
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 3: I had a proposed strengths.

633
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 1: I have defended you on this show.

634
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 3: Listen, Ben, listen, listen. No mortgages don't pay themselves. Bend

635
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 3: all right, you know what we.

636
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 2: Uster caves don't come cheap most the.

637
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 3: Most cringe worthy segment and all the podcasting yet again.

638
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:47,800
Speaker 3: And of course here we have recently celebrated the fourth

639
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:48,240
Speaker 3: of July.

640
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 1: That is true, that is true.

641
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,399
Speaker 5: In fact today is the fifth of July. In fact,

642
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:56,880
Speaker 5: as we record this stuff in July. And so the

643
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 5: question today, our scenario today has to do with someone

644
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:07,840
Speaker 5: who was very much connected to the declaration of independence.

645
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 5: And so you will get your scenario the time I

646
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 5: will start at three minutes. You will of course have

647
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 5: to ask questions of me, and I.

648
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:19,239
Speaker 2: Use that one with the constitution. Is that going to

649
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 2: be a problem we will see.

650
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:24,760
Speaker 3: But in order in order to ask a question this time,

651
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 3: I always give you an arbitrary rule. Yes, time, if

652
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 3: you wish to ask a question me, you must first

653
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:31,839
Speaker 3: say sit down, John.

654
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 1: All right.

655
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 3: Reference to a musical called seventeen seventy six, Go watch

656
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:37,800
Speaker 3: it Noel.

657
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 5: All right, here's your scenario.

658
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 3: Prepare yourself and start the timer.

659
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,360
Speaker 1: When I am done, Hey, let me warm up, because,

660
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 1: as longtime listeners know, I have to get a running

661
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:50,919
Speaker 1: start to jump and hit the hit the second hand

662
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 1: in this Grandfather clock. We spent so much money on it.

663
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 3: If you could get the touch screen on that Grandfather

664
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 3: clock activated and just unlock it now so that you

665
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 3: can hype in the number.

666
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 1: Here we go, we're working live man.

667
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 3: Along with doctor Lyman Hall and George Walton Button, Gwinette

668
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 3: signed the Declaration of Independence representing the Colony of Georgia.

669
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:17,880
Speaker 3: He would return to Georgia to serve as president. He

670
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 3: also maintained a rivalry with Lachlan Macintosh, a Scotsman who

671
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 3: served in the American Army as a brigadier general, which

672
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 3: was a position that Gwinette had coveted. Gwinett commanded Macintosh

673
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,759
Speaker 3: to conduct an invasion of East Florida during the Revolution.

674
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 3: The invasion was a terrible failure. The two men blamed

675
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 3: one another for the fiasco and it all resulted in

676
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 3: a duel. However, on the morning the duel was to

677
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 3: take place in southern Georgia, near the border of Florida.

678
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 3: As Button Gwinette walked his way to Lachland Macintosh, he

679
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 3: was bitten by a venomous snake suspected by historians to

680
00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:59,319
Speaker 3: be a coral snake. And while the bite itself might

681
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 3: not have been fatal, the medical attention that was given

682
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 3: to him certainly was, and he died of infection a

683
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:06,800
Speaker 3: week and a half later.

684
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 1: Start the clock, all right, we are start, give me

685
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:17,360
Speaker 1: a running start. Boom. Okay, sit down, John, yes, mister Bolin,

686
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:21,719
Speaker 1: could you tell us again where this duel allegedly took place.

687
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:25,720
Speaker 3: Southern Georgia, not too far from the border of Florida, Okay,

688
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 3: near what is now known as Fort McIntosh. As as

689
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:29,879
Speaker 3: it turns.

690
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 1: Out, and Button Gwinnette, so we know there's a Gwinnette county.

691
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:35,800
Speaker 2: We know about Button. I remember him from Georgia history

692
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 2: as a boy, you know.

693
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:42,840
Speaker 1: And McIntosh is a common name for institutions here in Georgia.

694
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 2: Was confused Button Gwinnette with Oglethorpe. Though, just like I do,

695
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 2: the declaration of independs with the Constitution. I am a

696
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 2: really bad historian.

697
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 1: You know, We're not bad. No, we're ridiculous.

698
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:55,359
Speaker 2: That's right, that's our whole thing's so.

699
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 1: Yeah.

700
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 2: One thing I don't remember from Georgia history is hearing

701
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 2: anything about a snake bit but.

702
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 1: Right also coral snakes. That's standing out to me. I

703
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:06,800
Speaker 1: am very tempted to just go false.

704
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, you just well, do we sit down? John is

705
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 2: the is the kicker that he died from poor medical

706
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 2: like we we are we it's been so long are

707
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 2: we trying to discern if like any detail of the

708
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:23,799
Speaker 2: story is true, the whole thing is not true. If

709
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 2: if if you're saying he died from poor medical attention,

710
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 2: but then there was a detail in there that.

711
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 3: Was any one detail there could make this statement that's false.

712
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 2: That is how that works.

713
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 3: So it is either all true or all false, or

714
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 3: there's some falsehood in it. But if there's just some falsehood.

715
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:47,399
Speaker 5: In it is still inherently okay, all or nothing.

716
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 2: I'm locking in false babies, all right? Me personally, I'm

717
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 2: mean I'm rocking.

718
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:53,359
Speaker 1: Let's yeah, yeah, let's let's count it down and make

719
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:53,840
Speaker 1: it official.

720
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:55,439
Speaker 2: Grow three two?

721
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 1: What false?

722
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:07,839
Speaker 3: Gentlemen, you have defeated me finally, I believe now I'm

723
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 3: only three ahead, you.

724
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 1: Know, one day at a time, man, Yeah, yeah, hey,

725
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 1: Casey key play of Victory music.

726
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:18,279
Speaker 3: Naked naked, a dirge, case and dirge. So here here

727
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 3: are the actual.

728
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 2: Yes, there was a duel.

729
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 1: There was a duel.

730
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:24,920
Speaker 3: I remember that Button Gwinnette did wish to be Brigadier

731
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:29,360
Speaker 3: general at the American Revolutionary War. Lachlan McIntosh, his political rival,

732
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 3: got that. And then when he returned to Georgia, he

733
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 3: was first elected Speaker of the House of Georgia as

734
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 3: well as a Commander in chief of the of the

735
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 3: Georgia Forces. And he did, in fact order McIntosh to

736
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 3: invade East Florida, British colony.

737
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 1: Uh huh.

738
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 3: It did not go well because McIntosh did not have

739
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:52,279
Speaker 3: the resources needed. He returned to Georgia and then he

740
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 3: proceeded to bad mouth Button Gwinette in front of the

741
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 3: Georgia Assembly.

742
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 2: You go bad mouth and Button in front of the

743
00:41:58,200 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 2: assembly man a.

744
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 3: Duel was a changed McIntosh totally shot Button Gwinnette, and

745
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 3: Button Gwinette died about three days later. On May nineteenth,

746
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 3: seventeen seventy seven, a signer of the Declaration of Independence

747
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 3: shot by a soldier who served in the Revolutionary Army.

748
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:21,360
Speaker 1: So no no coral snakes.

749
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,279
Speaker 3: What no coral snakes, not bitten by a snake. He

750
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 3: was merely shot by a.

751
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 2: Scotsman, shot by a Scotsman, just.

752
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 3: As fatal as it turns out.

753
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,239
Speaker 2: Now I'm interested. Maybe I missed this. How did the

754
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:33,880
Speaker 2: Scotsman end up fighting for the American cause?

755
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 1: He was?

756
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,719
Speaker 3: He was given the position of brigadier general, So they

757
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:42,400
Speaker 3: were both up for consideration for brigadier general rivals, and

758
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 3: Button Gwinnette was passed over. Button Gwinette's closest ally was

759
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:48,320
Speaker 3: doctor Lyman Hall. And as you mentioned, we have a

760
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 3: Gwinnette County. We also have a Hall County. Oh yeah, yeah,

761
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 3: that is where I am from, Hall County.

762
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 1: Okay, getting to know you? Is that where your layer is.

763
00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 3: In Hall County? Heavens? No, are you what an old

764
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 3: fourth ward man?

765
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 1: Now? Well, Jonathan, what a tremendous pleasure to have finally

766
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 1: started winning some of these, right, Noel.

767
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 2: I know, but I'm not getting enough remorse from you.

768
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,880
Speaker 2: I'm not sensing still three ahead. Well, I know, but

769
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:18,839
Speaker 2: I almost feel like you threw us a little bit

770
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 2: of a softball with this one. While I appreciate it,

771
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 2: I also somewhat resent it.

772
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:27,399
Speaker 3: Oh and then I'll come at you extra hard next time.

773
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:32,360
Speaker 1: So what will happen next ridiculous historians? Will the tension

774
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 1: continue to simmer? Will we get closer and closer to

775
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:39,439
Speaker 1: an even score or fall further into the hole. There's

776
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 1: only one way to find out. Well, there are several,

777
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 1: but there's one way we would like you to find out. Yeah,

778
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 1: you know, listen to the show, continue to subscribe to

779
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 1: my twitter feed. You'll find out about it.

780
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:50,760
Speaker 2: Hey, ay, now, yeah, Hey, what's this other show?

781
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 1: I'm not at liberty to say no, what's the other show?

782
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:56,240
Speaker 2: I have no idea.

783
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:58,400
Speaker 1: Oh, you guys are making me so paranoid.

784
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,560
Speaker 2: That's fine, that's part of the whole interaction here is paranoia.

785
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 2: But seriously, thank you for coming again, Jonathan Strickland, the

786
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:10,400
Speaker 2: devious quister. We appreciate it, Slash resent it heavily.

787
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 6: Thanks for helping us learn stuff, man, that's true. Love

788
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 6: you too, and thank you folks for tuning into the show.

789
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:18,439
Speaker 6: We hope you'll join us next time where we talk

790
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 6: about a bunch of states that never were that have

791
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:25,360
Speaker 6: a lot of fun names and stories.

792
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 2: And just just listen to the episode. It'll be good.

793
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 2: In the meantime, you can write to us at ridiculous

794
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 2: at HowStuffWorks dot com. You can check us out on

795
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:36,839
Speaker 2: the typical social media channels. Our preferred method of communication

796
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:40,399
Speaker 2: with our ridiculous historian community is through our Facebook group

797
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 2: of that very name, Ridiculous Historians, And we actually just

798
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 2: came out with an episode that featured some stuff from

799
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:48,439
Speaker 2: that very community and we had a really good time

800
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:50,479
Speaker 2: doing it, and we'll probably do it again. So check

801
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:54,800
Speaker 2: that out and drop some memes or stories or questions

802
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:57,800
Speaker 2: or ideas on there. You might hear it in an episode.

803
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 1: Yes, and you may well hear from us from Casey

804
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 1: Nol and myself. A big thanks, of course, as always

805
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:07,320
Speaker 1: to super producer Casey Pegrom, big thanks to Alex Williams

806
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:09,759
Speaker 1: who composed the track. You know what, Big thanks to

807
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:11,400
Speaker 1: everybody except Jonathan.

808
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:13,799
Speaker 2: Thanks to Christopher Ossiotis.

809
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 1: Jonathan, you got you're making a stink Facebook. I love

810
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 1: you do know, guys, I'm feeling the emanations of affection here.

811
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:24,400
Speaker 2: That's mpty is what you're feeling.

812
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 1: Well, the course of true love never did run smooth. Lee,

813
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:32,839
Speaker 1: Thanks for tuning in everyone, goodbye.

814
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:41,320
Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app Apple

815
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,120
Speaker 2: Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,