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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: A so called good samaritan seemingly risks his own life

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Speaker 2: to save other people on a subway, and now he

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Speaker 2: is being prosecuted for homicide. What really happened on that subway?

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Speaker 2: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for.

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Speaker 2: Being with us here at Fox Nation in series XM

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Speaker 2: one eleven. First of all, take a listen to our

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Speaker 2: friends at ABC seven.

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Speaker 4: In this citizen at video, police were told the man

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Speaker 4: who died was harassing passengers and making threats. That's when

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Speaker 4: a twenty four year old man stepped in and attempted

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Speaker 4: to subdue the man. A physical struggle ensued, leading to

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Speaker 4: the older man losing consciousness. He was rushed lenox Hill Hospital,

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Speaker 4: where he was later pronounced dead. The twenty four year

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Speaker 4: old subway writer was questioned by detectives and release pending

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Speaker 4: additional investigation and an autopsy.

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Speaker 2: What really happened when one man loses his life and

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Speaker 2: another man seemingly a good samaritan faces many years behind bars.

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Speaker 2: With me an all star panel to make sense of

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Speaker 2: what we know right now. But first of all, let's

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Speaker 2: go straight out to a New York reporter with the

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Speaker 2: New York Daily News dot com.

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Speaker 3: Janan Fisher, Jaya, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 5: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 3: Jana.

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Speaker 2: What's your understanding of what happened on that subway?

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Speaker 5: So it was on May first, as a Monday, around

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Speaker 5: two thirty on the f train at Jordan Deely, who

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Speaker 5: is a homeless man with a history of mental illness,

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Speaker 5: got on the train at the second avenue. Who stopped

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Speaker 5: wrote it one stop?

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Speaker 3: Well hold on, who wha whah wah wait wait, well,

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Speaker 3: let me understand something.

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Speaker 2: Guys with me from the New York Daily News, Jane

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Speaker 2: and Fisher Jane. And when you're saying second Avenue, where

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Speaker 2: on second Avenue?

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Speaker 3: Did he have the subway?

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Speaker 5: Sorry? Yeah, this is in Manhattan. This is downtown Manhattan

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Speaker 5: in New York City.

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Speaker 3: You're crossing with a second one.

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Speaker 5: It was second Avenue. And I guess Houston is where

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Speaker 5: the subway stomp is.

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Speaker 2: Not too far at all from NYU, the village, so

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Speaker 2: potentially on this train would be I guess students in

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Speaker 2: the middle of the workday, people going back and forth.

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Speaker 2: The city so so congested with traffic sometimes the only

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Speaker 2: way to get back and forth and make it on

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Speaker 2: time is a subway. I've often joked with my husband

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Speaker 2: and my children, should we walk or do we have

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Speaker 2: time to take cab?

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Speaker 3: In other words, it's traffic is so bad, it's faster.

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Speaker 3: I just walk.

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Speaker 2: Wherever you've got to go, even if it's sometimes a

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Speaker 2: couple of miles to get there, because traffic is just

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Speaker 2: totally stopped. So at that particular hop, how close is that?

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Speaker 2: Let me thank Houston. What is around that hop right there?

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Speaker 5: You know? Let me see that's there's some restaurants, you know, barbershop,

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Speaker 5: hardware store, there's a I think CATS's Delhi isn't too

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Speaker 5: far from there, you know. It's you know, there are

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Speaker 5: some you know, bars and restaurants. It's you know, it's

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Speaker 5: a residential area.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean when you say kats Is Delhi, that

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Speaker 2: says it all because I would totally catch a subway

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Speaker 2: to get to cats As Delhi.

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Speaker 3: Having gone to NYU.

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Speaker 2: I've been at that stop many many times getting from

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Speaker 2: let's see at that time, I was at Court TV

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Speaker 2: and hl N and no, just at Court TV at

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Speaker 2: that point, and would take the subway all the way

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Speaker 2: down to my law classes at NYU. So I'm trying

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Speaker 2: to imagine who all was on on the subway at

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Speaker 2: that moment.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I'm getting a picture. Go ahead, dear right.

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Speaker 5: So yeah, it's hardly a rush hour, but you know

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Speaker 5: it's it's getting there. And so mister Neely, who is

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Speaker 5: a busker, homeless man, you know, with mental health problems.

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Speaker 5: He often personated Michael Jackson in the forty second Street

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Speaker 5: in the subway station for loose change from tourists and commuters.

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Speaker 5: He gets on the subway stop at Second Avenue and

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Speaker 5: according to witnesses, he becomes, you know, alarm. He is

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Speaker 5: starting to rant. He throws his Michael Jackson jacket down

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Speaker 5: on the floor. He says he's hungry. You know that

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Speaker 5: he's tiers who doesn't care anymore. He'll go to jail.

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Speaker 2: Okay, white, white, white, Wait sorry, Janeen, Yes, ma'am, you're

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Speaker 2: just giving me so much information. Is again drinking from

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Speaker 2: the fire hygent too much, too fast? Let me understand

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Speaker 2: how quote down, You've got a guy with I think

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Speaker 2: forty four.

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Speaker 3: Priors on his criminal history, and.

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Speaker 2: He takes off his jacket, throws it down and says

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Speaker 2: he's ready to die.

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Speaker 5: That's according to witnesses.

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Speaker 3: Yes, okay, go ahead, and then what happens.

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Speaker 5: So, you know other you know, according to daily news reporting,

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Speaker 5: you know, the MTA recorded that people believed that there

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Speaker 5: was a guy with a knife on the train, there

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Speaker 5: was a guy with a gun on the train, that

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Speaker 5: there was a that there was a danger.

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Speaker 2: Wait, people are starting to call MTA metro transit What

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Speaker 2: does it stand for authority?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, Metropolitan Transportation authority.

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Speaker 2: So people on the subway, trapped on the subway, you

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Speaker 2: can't get off right, are calling, I guess calling from

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Speaker 2: the emergency phone that's there on the subway.

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Speaker 5: I think they're letting the conductor know who's on the

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Speaker 5: train with them, that they're that there's a danger on

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Speaker 5: the train.

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Speaker 3: Did any train personnel come help?

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Speaker 5: I know they're they're you know, they're trained not to

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Speaker 5: call the authorities, not to intervene in those situations.

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Speaker 3: Okay, white whit white, white white.

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Speaker 2: So people are afraid and they're calling MTA Metropolitan Transit authority,

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Speaker 2: asking for help. They think the guy has a knife

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Speaker 2: for a gun. He says he doesn't care if he dies.

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Speaker 2: He's sick of it, he's had it, and they MTA

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Speaker 2: are trained not to intervene.

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Speaker 5: Well, they're calling, they call the police, and they, you know,

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Speaker 5: and the police, the you know, the properly chained police

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Speaker 5: would would intervene in that situation. So, you know, the

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Speaker 5: distance between Second Avenue and a lot of Broadway Lafayette.

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Speaker 5: You know we're talking about, you know, thirty forty seconds,

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Speaker 5: forty five seconds, maybe a minute to between train stops.

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Speaker 2: Now, you know, I've never seen forty five seconds between

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Speaker 2: one and another stop.

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Speaker 5: Pretty quick stop, less than.

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Speaker 2: One minute between stops, because in all my years of

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Speaker 2: taking the New York subways, I've never gotten from one

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Speaker 2: stop to the next in forty five seconds that quickly

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Speaker 2: as anybody on this panel gotten between one stop and

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Speaker 2: another stop on a New York subway in less than

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Speaker 2: a minute.

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Speaker 6: Never, never in my life, never two minutes.

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Speaker 2: Wait, do you want to rethink that answer? I just

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Speaker 2: love saying that when people are on the stand. Would

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Speaker 2: you like a moment to rethink that answer? Jane and Fisher?

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Speaker 2: Forty five seconds between stops, I've not.

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Speaker 5: Timed it, but you know it's a very quick stop.

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Speaker 2: Well, I can guarantee you it's not forty five seconds

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Speaker 2: between stops.

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Speaker 3: That's not happening, and very quickly. Don't go anywhere Janeen,

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Speaker 3: I'm here, believe it or not.

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Speaker 2: I agree with everything you've said except that forty five

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Speaker 2: second thing. Hold on, doctor Bill Smart with me, Forensic

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Speaker 2: medical specialist, police surgeon for the Louisville Metric PD, Medical

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Speaker 2: director for the Training Institute on Strangulation Prevention, Good gravy man.

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Speaker 3: Do you were sleep, doctor Smock?

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Speaker 2: How long does it take to aspixiate someone, strangle hang smother?

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Speaker 3: How long does it take to your dad?

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Speaker 7: Well, there's a well known progression. After you apply pressure

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Speaker 7: to the carotid arteries, things begin to happen. You are

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Speaker 7: unconscious in less than ten seconds, and because the cells

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Speaker 7: of the brain have no oxygen reserve, they die every

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Speaker 7: second they continue to go without oxygen. We know from

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Speaker 7: videotapes that you will go unconscious in that less than

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Speaker 7: ten second period and stop breathing somewhere between one and

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Speaker 7: two and a half minutes of pressure on the neck

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Speaker 7: blocking the carotid arders.

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Speaker 3: You know, doctor Smock.

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Speaker 2: That was brilliant the way you did that, because you

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Speaker 2: could have just said two minutes, but the way you

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Speaker 2: led me up to it, I didn't even want to interrupt. Okay,

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Speaker 2: two minutes, two and a half minutes.

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Speaker 7: Max, Yeah, somewhere between one and two and a half minutes,

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Speaker 7: so you will stop breathing.

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Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 3: Duncan Levin is joining me.

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Speaker 2: Former federal prosecutor, now managing partner at eleven and Associates.

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Speaker 3: Duncan, thank you for being with us. With you, Natty Duncan.

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Speaker 3: Do you have children?

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Speaker 8: I do?

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Speaker 3: How many for of them?

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Speaker 5: Little ones?

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Speaker 3: Boy? Girl?

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Speaker 9: What got you?

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Speaker 5: Girls?

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Speaker 8: And a boy? So they're starting to ride the subway.

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Speaker 3: So they're out there in New York ages by.

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Speaker 8: My youngest is seven, and then I have a twelve

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Speaker 8: year old and a fourteen year old.

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Speaker 3: What would you do?

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Speaker 2: Guy, clearly out of his mind, takes off his jacket,

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Speaker 2: throws it down, becomes erratic. You feel threatened. You've got

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Speaker 2: your seven year old, your twelve year old, and your

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Speaker 2: fourteen year old with you. What would you do? Would

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Speaker 2: you call MTA and hope that maybe they'd break their

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Speaker 2: policy and come help.

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Speaker 8: And that's the thing that everybody has to keep in mind.

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Speaker 2: Here, Oh wait a minute, Duncan Levin, that's why he's

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Speaker 2: such a good trial lawyer.

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Speaker 3: Look here, not here? What would you do? I mean,

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Speaker 3: because I tear him apart. I would go down.

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Speaker 2: Swinging bam if anybody got close.

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Speaker 3: To John, David or Lucy it's over.

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Speaker 8: Well, I think that that's right. But the question is

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Speaker 8: that we weren't there, and so that is what these

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Speaker 8: charges are going to be about is and what this

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Speaker 8: case is about.

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Speaker 5: Is whether.

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Speaker 8: That was the right decision to make in the time.

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Speaker 8: Only he knows he was there and there were witnesses there.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I can say where you're going with this, Duncan Levin,

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Speaker 3: and that's why you win so many cases.

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Speaker 2: Did you notice he did not answer, just for the record,

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Speaker 2: did not answer.

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Speaker 3: So Jane and Fisher, back to you, the poor thing.

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Speaker 3: I'm back on you now, Jana.

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Speaker 2: What do the witnesses, not the marine Daniel Penny, what

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Speaker 2: do the other witnesses say happened?

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Speaker 5: Well, you know the accounts very obviously, you know, like

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Speaker 5: I said that some people said he had a knight,

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Speaker 5: some people said he had a gun. That's what the

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Speaker 5: MTA recorded.

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Speaker 2: Oh I'm so glad they sat behind their desks and

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Speaker 2: recorded it all and did nothing but that said go ahead, right.

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Speaker 5: So there was a freelance journalist there that recorded the

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Speaker 5: aftermath and his account that he posted on Facebook was

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Speaker 5: that he didn't feel like that this man was a

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Speaker 5: true danger. So accounts very but there's definitely a you know,

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Speaker 5: indications that people were alarmed by Jordan Neely's behavior on

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Speaker 5: that train, that there was a you know, police sources

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Speaker 5: said that he was throwing garbage, uh, you know, and

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Speaker 5: that he was ranting.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 5: You know, there there's no report that he attacked anyone,

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Speaker 5: you know, that has not come out. Uh, you know

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Speaker 5: that anyone was confronted by him.

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Speaker 3: Got another question for you. I'm looking at the video.

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Speaker 2: I take it that's the one from Juan Alberto Vsquez.

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Speaker 5: That's correct.

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Speaker 2: I've been looking at that and I see someone, of course,

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Speaker 2: I see Daniel Penny.

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Speaker 3: And he has Jordan Neely in a choke cold.

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Speaker 2: And I see another male wearing a black jacket with

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Speaker 2: a white long sleeved shirt and a black band on

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Speaker 2: one of his ring his left ring fingers, suggesting he

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Speaker 2: may be married, also holding down Jordan Neely. He's not

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Speaker 2: trying to pull Penny off Neely. He's trying to pull

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Speaker 2: Neely's hands back.

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Speaker 3: Who's that?

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Speaker 2: I mean?

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Speaker 5: We are not we have not identified the other participants

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Speaker 5: in you know, in Indian too, because I.

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Speaker 2: Find that significant. It's not as if other subway riders

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Speaker 2: are trying to pull Penny off. In fact, they're trying

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Speaker 2: to hold Jordan Neely's arms down so he can't hit Penny.

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Speaker 2: Has anybody noticed that, I mean joining me is Wilbert Chapman,

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Speaker 2: former NYPD Deputy Commissioner and former commissioner the NYC Department

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Speaker 2: Transportation Commissioner.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 2: Have you noticed that this other guy Okay, now I

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Speaker 2: know I can see him in full it's actually helping

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Speaker 2: hold NELLI back, And I see a guy standing over

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Speaker 2: them in jeans and an army jacket. It looks like

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Speaker 2: or maybe a leather jacket in the backpack. No, what

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Speaker 2: are you seemingly asking or saying?

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Speaker 3: Stop? Stop? Stop? You can't breathe? What do you say

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Speaker 3: when you look at this video, Deputy Chapman.

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Speaker 6: It's interesting that you have three individuals of doing one

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Speaker 6: and two of them are clearly were not detained or

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Speaker 6: questioned by the police to find out exactly what their

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Speaker 6: perspective on the incident was. Would you could deduce from

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Speaker 6: that that mister Neely was putting up quite a bit

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Speaker 6: of resistance or was in the process of threatening, although

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Speaker 6: that we don't have any information that says he physically

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Speaker 6: attacked anyone which would justify the use of the physical

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Speaker 6: courts against him.

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Speaker 2: Guys, let's hear more from our friends at Pigs eleven.

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Speaker 10: The suspects lawyers told us in a statement quote, when

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Speaker 10: mister Penny, a decorated marine veteran, stepped in to protect

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Speaker 10: himself and fellow New Yorkers, his well being was not assured.

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Speaker 10: He risked his own life and safety for the good

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Speaker 10: of his fellow passengers. The unfortunate result was the unintended

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Speaker 10: and unforeseen death of mister Neely. We're confident once the

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Speaker 10: facts are out, mister Penny will be fully absolved of

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Speaker 10: any wrongdoing.

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Speaker 2: We know that choke hold went on for two minutes

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Speaker 2: and five seconds, which is exactly what doctor Bill Smartt

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Speaker 2: was describing. Now we've just heard about Daniel Penny's background.

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Speaker 2: I understand he's a decorated marine veteran Jamin Fisher.

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Speaker 3: Why was he decorated?

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Speaker 5: You know, he had done one tour in the Marine Corps.

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Speaker 5: He was overseas and he did a tour you know,

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Speaker 5: you know, right in the Marines. I think it was

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Speaker 5: for let me see National Defense Service Medal Global War

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Speaker 5: on Terrorism, and he got the Marine Corps Good Conduct Medal.

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Speaker 2: I thought he was deployed twice, but I'll find that

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Speaker 2: out right now. Okay, that's what we know about him,

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Speaker 2: Jane and Fish, Sure, what do we know about the deceased?

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Speaker 2: Jordan Neely? Taken a listen to Anthony Delrenzo.

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Speaker 10: Neely, who was homeless and suffering from mental illness, was

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Speaker 10: allegedly agitating fellow writers on May first. That's when Penny

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Speaker 10: took him to the floor for as long as fifteen minutes.

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Speaker 10: Thirty year old's death was caught on camera, raising an

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Speaker 10: uproar from the mayor to some police and community activists,

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Speaker 10: though one criminal defense attorney thinks the DA was forced

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Speaker 10: to cave to political pressure.

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Speaker 11: This is a political hot potato. There are people on

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Speaker 11: both sides of this that are upset about what's going

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Speaker 11: on here. And the obvious solution here was to present

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Speaker 11: it to a grand jury, present all of it, every witness,

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Speaker 11: every possible charge, including justification, invite mister Penny to testify,

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Speaker 11: and instead they've just charged him, which you know at

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Speaker 11: this point, Alvin Bragg owns this.

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Speaker 2: Let me understand, then, what happened And to Jaden Fisher,

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Speaker 2: did this go to a grand jury?

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Speaker 5: Not yet, It has not gone to a grand jury yet.

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Speaker 3: Haven't charges come down?

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Speaker 5: Yes, they arrested him on charges. That's correct.

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Speaker 3: Okay, guys, take a listen to Derek Waller.

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Speaker 4: Police say the man who was killed actually had forty

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Speaker 4: four prior arrests and in fact was potentially harassing people

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Speaker 4: at the time of his death.

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Speaker 3: And we can show you this map.

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Speaker 4: It happened Monday afternoon here at the Broadway Lofaiette subway

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Speaker 4: station with service for the BDF and m trained.

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Speaker 12: Neelie was a subway performer. He also had a history

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Speaker 12: of mental illness. According to witnesses, the day of his death,

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Speaker 12: Neelie was acting erradically and harassing passengers when police got

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Speaker 12: the initial nine to one one call. Video shows a

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Speaker 12: twenty four year old Marine veteran holding Neely in a

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Speaker 12: chokehold while other subway writers restrained him before he died.

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Speaker 12: Police did question the marine being seen in the video

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Speaker 12: and released him without charges.

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Speaker 2: So when police questioned Penny, they decide to release him

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Speaker 2: without charges.

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Speaker 3: So what more do we know.

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Speaker 2: About Daniel Penny? What can we Uncover. Take a listen

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Speaker 2: to our friends at crime online dot com.

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Speaker 9: Daniel Penny grew up in a middle class family as

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Speaker 9: the only boy in a family of girls. Penny and

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Speaker 9: his three sisters grew up in a three bedroom house

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Speaker 9: in Westslip on Long Island. Childhood friends say the Penny

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Speaker 9: household had an open door policy, welcoming all the boys

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Speaker 9: played basketball and hung out at the mall. Penny was

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Speaker 9: a star lacrosse player at West Dislip High School. In

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Speaker 9: twenty fifteen, he earned an MVP award during the annual

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Speaker 9: dan Daily Cup competition. Right after graduation, Penny joined the Marines.

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Speaker 9: He served for four years, deployed twice, and rose to

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Speaker 9: the rank of sergeant. Penny was honorably discharged in twenty

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Speaker 9: twenty one.

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Speaker 2: You know one thing I don't want to hear to

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Speaker 2: doctor John delatorrensed psychologist and mediator specializing in forensic psychology,

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Speaker 2: and you can find him at doctor John Delatory, Doctor Delatory.

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Speaker 2: What I don't want to hear in an investigation, a

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Speaker 2: criminal investigation are the two words political, hot potato.

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Speaker 3: I guess that's three.

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Speaker 2: Words because that has nothing to do with the evidence,

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Speaker 2: does it.

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Speaker 5: No, it's not supposed to.

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Speaker 13: And I think that's the crust of the issue, is

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Speaker 13: that it appears as though there is a lot of

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Speaker 13: politics being played on the ancillary aspects of these things,

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Speaker 13: where it's mental illness, or its veteran issues, whether it's safety,

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Speaker 13: all of these things are forcing of our law enforcement

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Speaker 13: officials to engage in necessary sort of space covering sort

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Speaker 13: of necessary c ya because of the political pressures that

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Speaker 13: are being forced upon them. Our just system is not

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Speaker 13: supposed to be influenced by politics, but very often.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's very disturbing to me Duncan Levin Duncan,

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Speaker 2: former federal prosecutor and managing partner Levin and Associates, is

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Speaker 2: that for some reason the district Attorney Bragg skipped the

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Speaker 2: grand jury.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, something that doesn't happen in every single case, but

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Speaker 8: in this particular case, it's really on the line, and

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Speaker 8: I think he wants to get more evidence before figuring

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Speaker 8: out defendibly how to go on this and what the

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Speaker 8: ultimate charges are. Right now, I think we need.

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Speaker 3: To explain why that's so unusual.

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Speaker 2: You say, it's I never prosecuted a single case ever

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Speaker 2: in two years as a FED, in ten years as

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Speaker 2: a felony prosecutor in superior court never ever prosecuted a

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Speaker 2: case that a grand jury had not handed down a

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Speaker 2: true bill. I didn't just go, hey, Jackie, I think

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Speaker 2: you committed a crime. I'm just gonna get my pen

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Speaker 2: and paper and I'm drawing up in a diamond and

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Speaker 2: then I'm going to prosecute you.

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Speaker 3: That never happened.

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Speaker 2: And I'm curious why the district attorney chose not to

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Speaker 2: take this to a group in a grand jury for

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Speaker 2: them to decide if there should be a formal charge.

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Speaker 3: Does that bother anybody other than me?

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Speaker 2: I mean, regardless of what a grand jury would have

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Speaker 2: done and died or no indict why skip a procedural

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Speaker 2: step and prosecuting this guy.

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Speaker 8: So it's unusual, but it's not unheard of. There are

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Speaker 8: cases that precede this way, like what well, there are

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Speaker 8: cases where they start prosecuting it in the New York

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Speaker 8: City Criminal Court and let it depend. There not enough

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Speaker 8: grand jury space for everything. That's not the case with

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Speaker 8: this case is the high profile case.

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Speaker 2: I mean, can you name one case, Duncan you say

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Speaker 2: that it happened?

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Speaker 3: When did it happen?

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Speaker 8: It happened in more routine cases regularly because people are

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Speaker 8: arrested on felony complaints that it's not enough time to

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Speaker 8: get grand jury time to have everything indicted.

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Speaker 3: On a homicide case. Have you seen it happen on

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Speaker 3: a homicide case.

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Speaker 8: I think it happens on probably a majority of homicide

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Speaker 8: cases in New York City.

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Speaker 3: Can you name one?

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Speaker 8: Well, I'm not in criminal court every day, but I

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Speaker 8: bet if you sat there enough of the day, you'd

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Speaker 8: see homicide cases come through that have not been indicted.

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Speaker 8: Usually cases are indicted before there's an arrest and then

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Speaker 8: they arrest them, or if there's an arrest, they're indicted

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Speaker 8: at some point after the arrest. So it's not usual

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Speaker 8: in New York City criminal court to have a case proceed.

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Speaker 2: In your expertise as a former federal prosecutor, did you

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Speaker 2: prosecute cases without a grand jury indictment.

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Speaker 8: I was the New York State prosecutor at the Manhattan

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Speaker 8: Diey's Office for many years as well, and I arranged

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Speaker 8: tons of murder cases that came through that had not

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Speaker 8: been indicted yet, So it's not that unusual per se.

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Speaker 2: Can you remember any particular one like a name? No,

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Speaker 2: I'm just thinking through why in a homicide case, and

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Speaker 2: a homicide case.

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Speaker 3: That has garnered this much attention.

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Speaker 2: Just to top it off, did the elected DA choose

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Speaker 2: not to use a grand jury? I find that very

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Speaker 2: very disturbing. But that said, now we find out more

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Speaker 2: about the case, it all seemingly hinges on what the

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Speaker 2: medical examiner says. Take a listener, friends at ABC seven

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Speaker 2: key here now is emy's reporting.

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Speaker 14: Former NYPD Chief of Detectives Robert Boyce says, the twenty

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Speaker 14: four year old man who subdued him may have indeed

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Speaker 14: been defending himself and others, but there are other factors.

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Speaker 15: How long was the actual holt was in that compression

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Speaker 15: that's going to be was he screaming to let me go?

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Speaker 15: Let me go? Hold these things?

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Speaker 5: A well?

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Speaker 14: Into that determination, a determination of whether or not he

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Speaker 14: made the right call which ended up costing someone's life.

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Speaker 15: The safest thing that it was cold nine one one

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Speaker 15: if you can down there or find it officer nearby. However,

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Speaker 15: save that those two instances, if there's an immediate need

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Speaker 15: to help someone, you do it.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that's heroic, but that's really scary. On the

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Speaker 3: same part, like you cannot just jump in and.

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Speaker 13: Be a good Smaritan, because good, smartians often wind up

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Speaker 13: being hurt themselves.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I'm just trying to take in what I'm hearing.

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Speaker 2: Did he actually say the safest thing to do is

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Speaker 2: call nine one one to Wilbur Chapman.

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Speaker 3: Is he serious?

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Speaker 2: You're on the subway, you feel threatened, call nine one one.

448
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 2: NIM one can't get there. The transit authority is not

449
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,119
Speaker 2: going to do anything. That's their procedure. They're not going

450
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 2: to help. So why did he even say called nine

451
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:25,440
Speaker 2: one one?

452
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 6: That's a question for retired chief boys. I don't quite

453
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 6: understand that. If there's imminent need to prevent someone from

454
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:38,200
Speaker 6: being harmed and you're taking that appropriate action, of course

455
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,920
Speaker 6: there's going to be consequences for it if as there

456
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,639
Speaker 6: are in this particular case, But certainly the protection of

457
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 6: life is a lot greater than the need to call

458
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,680
Speaker 6: nine one one. There are certain problems with communications underground,

459
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 6: with police deployment, and the amount of time it takes

460
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 6: for someone to rescue you. You've been talking about people's

461
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 6: family members. My family members were in danger, I would

462
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 6: certainly take action and then worry about what the consequences

463
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,440
Speaker 6: are later. This is probably what's happened in this case,

464
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 6: it's a perfect storm of unfortunate circumstances. Mister Neely should

465
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 6: not have been out in the subway. The system fails him,

466
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 6: and now mister Penny takes action as a result of

467
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,679
Speaker 6: that is an unfortunate death for which he must be charged.

468
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 6: So really there's no winners in this, and certainly the

469
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,399
Speaker 6: cooling nine to one one, it might have exacerbated the

470
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 6: situation and you might have had more loss of life,

471
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,199
Speaker 6: or possibly the people who were who were felt that

472
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:39,360
Speaker 6: they were in danger might have actually been in danger.

473
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,920
Speaker 2: You know. To Janen Fisher joining us from New York

474
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 2: Daily Needs dot com, I noticed that the Wall Street

475
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 2: Journal referred to Neely as a quote obviously deranged man.

476
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 3: Let me get their exact wording.

477
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 2: When Daniel Penny stepped forward on a New York subway

478
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,959
Speaker 2: to protect his fellow commuters from an obviously deranged man,

479
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,160
Speaker 2: the former marine sergeant could not have imagined two weeks

480
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 2: later he would be pert walk in handcuffs outside the

481
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 2: fifth Precinct. Why are they saying he's an obviously deranged man.

482
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 5: Jordan Nearly had a history of mental illness. He was schizophrenic.

483
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:20,159
Speaker 5: His dad said that he had autism. You know, he

484
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 5: had led a rather tragic lace. His mother was strangled

485
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 5: to death to death by her boyfriend in two thousand

486
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 5: and seven, when Jordan was I think fourteen years old.

487
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 5: The boyfriend put his mother in a suecase and left

488
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 5: her on the Henry Hudson Parkway and continued to live with.

489
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 5: Jordan testified against the boyfriend in the trial, you know,

490
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 5: the criminal trial.

491
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 2: Ag I'm saying, why is he now obviously deranged? According

492
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 2: to the Wall Street Journal, What was he doing that

493
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,359
Speaker 2: made him look obviously direct changed?

494
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 3: Or was he well?

495
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 5: On the subway appears witnesses have said that he you know,

496
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 5: that he was threatening, that he was throwing garbage, that

497
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 5: he was erratic, unruly, that you know that he people

498
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 5: felt reported they felt threatened, they felt scared. Uh you know,

499
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 5: a woman motioned to her waistband and said that he

500
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 5: had a gun. That these were reports that the MTA

501
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,640
Speaker 5: received about what was going on in the subway card.

502
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 2: I wonder too, Doctor John Delatory, psychologists specializing in forensic psychology,

503
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 2: if there is a mindset that people are already afraid,

504
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:46,119
Speaker 2: they're already afraid of crime, They're afraid of what's going

505
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 2: to happen to their families, to their children, to themselves.

506
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 2: I mean, who's going to raise their children if they

507
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 2: get killed on the subway. So they're in a climate

508
00:27:55,280 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 2: of fear to start with, and then when neally erratically

509
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 2: they feel in danger. I mean maybe somewhere somewhere else,

510
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 2: citizens wouldn't be it wouldn't live in the climate of fear.

511
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,119
Speaker 2: They wouldn't be afraid they're gonna die. But trapped in

512
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:20,120
Speaker 2: a subway car dozens of feet below the surface, there's

513
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,640
Speaker 2: nobody to call, and if you did, they wouldn't come anyway.

514
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 5: I do not find that unreasonable, Nancy.

515
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 16: I have one hundred percent.

516
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:28,359
Speaker 9: Agree with everything that you're seeing.

517
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:33,920
Speaker 13: Society right now is feeding on fear and commoditizing anger,

518
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,680
Speaker 13: and so that when someone is acting out of their

519
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 13: mind right and I have no idea what deranged means.

520
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 13: I mean, I know technically it means mentally unsounded. I

521
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 13: have no idea what the Wall Street Journal is trying

522
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 13: to imply by saying what.

523
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 5: Is going on with Jordan Neely?

524
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 16: Homelessness, probably drug use, untreated mental illness. These are all

525
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 16: things that people just aren't used to seeing. And because

526
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 16: of that they otherwise, they stigmatize that individual as being

527
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 16: dangerous when the reality is they're simply.

528
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 5: Asking for help.

529
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 2: I don't know was he dangerous, because in my mind,

530
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 2: it's not what the medical examiner says that's going to

531
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 2: turn this case. It's was nearly a threat. Did the

532
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 2: people sitting around him feel threatened? And that is why

533
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 2: I brought up these other two guys. They weren't trying

534
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 2: to drag Daniel Penny off Neely. They were trying to

535
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 2: help Penny subdue Neely. And that tells me a lot.

536
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 2: It's not just Penny taking action against Neely. Does that

537
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 2: make it right?

538
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 3: I don't know.

539
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 2: Does it make it wrong? I would have to find

540
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 2: out exactly what.

541
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,959
Speaker 3: Neelie was doing. Did he pose a threat?

542
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:50,479
Speaker 2: Well, take a listen to Penny's lawyer speaking with our

543
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 2: friends at the five in our cut twenty three.

544
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 17: Well, the mindset is pretty simple. He was fearful for

545
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 17: the safety of those passengers when he acted. His mindset

546
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 17: was to keep his fellow pastors safe from attack. Nearly

547
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 17: entering the train and acting in a very violent manner, both.

548
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 3: Physically and with words.

549
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 17: He would say things to the effect that you know

550
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 17: I need certain things. I need food, I need this

551
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 17: or that, and if I don't get it, I don't

552
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 17: care if I go to prison for the rest of

553
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 17: my life.

554
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 3: And the passengers.

555
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 17: Actually have said that they interpreted that mean, well, when

556
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 17: would you go to prison for the rest of your

557
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 17: life if you kill somebody? So everybody got the message.

558
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 17: There was a period of time where the situation kind

559
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 17: of developed, so, you know, a period of time to

560
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 17: be able to observe mister Neely, you know, swinging his

561
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 17: arms at passengers, throwing his jacket down, making threats.

562
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 2: Okay, when does that rise to a level of threatening.

563
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace.

564
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 3: To Duncan Levin joining us, what about it?

565
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 8: Duncan, Yeah, I think he's got a very good case

566
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 8: that adrives us to the level. And that is why

567
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 8: I think that DA is taking its time and figuring

568
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 8: out exactly how best to put this case together, because

569
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 8: the law itself in New York says that it's killing itself.

570
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 8: Defense is legally permitted when an attack opposes an imminent

571
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 8: threat of physical harm or death. And so I think

572
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 8: that there is enough there that he has a defense

573
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 8: to this, because he'll say there was nowhere else I

574
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 8: could go. There was nowhere to retreat. I was in

575
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 8: a subway car. And look, it wasn't just me, it

576
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 8: was other people joining into Everyone there thought there was

577
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 8: an imminent threat that he was going to kill us.

578
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 8: All so that that is the case, and that is

579
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 8: his defense. And so you know, it's going to require

580
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 8: eyewitness testimony, and they believe me, they're going to have

581
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 8: everyone in that car testifying one way or the other

582
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 8: about whether there was a threat of harm.

583
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 3: Back to Jane and Fisher joining us.

584
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 2: Investigative reporter with the New York Daily needs Jane, and again,

585
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 2: thank you for being with us.

586
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 3: What are the other passengers saying, you know, the.

587
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 5: Other passengers, you know, it said that he had a gun,

588
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 5: he had a knife. They said he was acting erratically.

589
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:24,719
Speaker 5: They said he was throwing garbage.

590
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 18: You know.

591
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 5: One of the passengers said that he had thrown his

592
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 5: Michael Jackson jacket on the ground. You know, he you know,

593
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:35,719
Speaker 5: he said that you know, he was hungry, he needed footy,

594
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 5: that he was ready to die, and that was that

595
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 5: is all that we really understand about what he said

596
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 5: on the train and what he.

597
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 2: Did that so far is not rising in my mind

598
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 2: so far is not rising to a level of a

599
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 2: dangerous threat. But on the other hand, guys, we're not

600
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 2: on the subway. We don't know if he was menacing

601
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 2: toward women or moms or children. We have no idea

602
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 2: what happened.

603
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 3: And I do know.

604
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 2: Isn't this correct to Jamie Fisher that one of the

605
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 2: passengers actually stepped forward and thanked Penny.

606
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 5: There are some reports that a woman that was on

607
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 5: the train had wanted to thank him for his action.

608
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 5: That I not confirm that myself, but I had read

609
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 5: that report.

610
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 2: We do know that police for some reason are not

611
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 2: giving the substantiation that will be required in this case,

612
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 2: the details leading up to the choke hold. I'm curious

613
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 2: what you make of that, Wilbert Chapman, former commissioner, former

614
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 2: deputy commissioner, that people on the train actually thanked neally.

615
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 6: Well like of the thin possibility, because the level of

616
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 6: crime on the subway has certainly risen, and with that

617
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 6: you would have the rise and fear of passengers who

618
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 6: are on the subway, and a concern about the fact

619
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 6: that there are large numbers of homeless and mentally unstable

620
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,839
Speaker 6: people who use the subways because they don't use the shelters.

621
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,760
Speaker 6: As far as the police statement is concerned, it's incumbent

622
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 6: to final of responding police to take in depth statements

623
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:24,359
Speaker 6: to be submitted as part of the investigation to determine

624
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 6: is their culpability on the part of misdepending or exactly,

625
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 6: more and more importantly, exactly what happened. What were the circumstances.

626
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 6: There are reports of knives and guns, where any found

627
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 6: and what made those individuals who thought they were there

628
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 6: were weapons involved, or that that mister Neely had weapons?

629
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 6: What made them think that? And does that does that

630
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 6: lead to a factual accounting of what they observed or

631
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 6: just an emotional reaction. Because the fear that's caused by

632
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,800
Speaker 6: the environment being trapped in the subway trains with someone

633
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 6: who you know is unpredictable or you were assume is

634
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 6: unpredictable in their behavior.

635
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 2: That's really important in the fact that you just said unpredictable, unstable,

636
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 2: because when someone begins to act erradically, you fear the worst,

637
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 2: especially when you're protecting your children. You don't know what

638
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,400
Speaker 2: they're going to do next, and that fear fact or

639
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 2: the reality that it is unpredictable and the person is unstable,

640
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:27,239
Speaker 2: they can do anything. I'm still hung up on the

641
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 2: fact that two other men helped subdue Neally. They weren't

642
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 2: trying to drag Penny off, for instance.

643
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,799
Speaker 3: We see in other cases where the crowd.

644
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 2: Is saying stop, he's choking, he can't breathe get off him.

645
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:49,319
Speaker 2: In this case people are actually thinking neally and helping him.

646
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 3: So helping Penny.

647
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 2: I'm trying to sort out the facts and we're not

648
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 2: getting them. And that's further clouded by the fact that

649
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 2: there was no grandjury process.

650
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 3: The prosecutor skipped what.

651
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 2: Many people, including myself, considered to be a very important.

652
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 3: Part of justice.

653
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 2: Take a listen to our cut twenty four. Our friends

654
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 2: at the five Well.

655
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 17: We were told that there was going to be a

656
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 17: grand jury presentation and then that would take some time,

657
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 17: and it was going to be a very kind of

658
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,280
Speaker 17: a deliberate process. It was not going to be rushed.

659
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 17: Then suddenly we got a call one night before Daniels

660
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 17: asked to surrender and said he's got to surrender to

661
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 17: the police department tomorrow. So at that point, where what

662
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 17: do you mean tomorrow? This was going to be a

663
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:39,360
Speaker 17: long process.

664
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 2: Suddenly it's tomorrow, so everything was rushed, no grand jury proceeding.

665
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 2: Was a hastily drawn indictment that said there are formal

666
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 2: charges and it unfolds from there. Take listen to our

667
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 2: friends and our cut thirteen CBS two.

668
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 18: Just as expected, Daniel Penny turning himself into police here

669
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 18: at the fifth printcinc. Now he was charged with a

670
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:07,320
Speaker 18: second degree manslaughter charge. District Attorney Alvin Bragg announcing that yesterday,

671
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 18: now take a look. This is video of Penny walking

672
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 18: inside of the precinct. He went in, he came back out,

673
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 18: headed to the Manhattan Criminal Court where bail will be

674
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 18: decided if it will be a set or not. And

675
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,919
Speaker 18: his attorney says Penny turning himself in voluntarily.

676
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 19: An attorney for Daniel Penny, the man charged with second

677
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 19: degree manslaughter on the subway death of Jordan Neely, maintained

678
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 19: his client's innocence after he turned himself in at the

679
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 19: NYPD's fifth Precinct Friday morning, dealing.

680
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 10: With the situation, like I said, with a sort of

681
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:42,319
Speaker 10: integrity and honor, that his characteristic who he is characteristic

682
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 10: is honorable service in the United.

683
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:48,319
Speaker 3: States, pree Corps and hes pedals had held out.

684
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:50,799
Speaker 19: The twenty four year old Long Island veteran walked out

685
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 19: in handcuffs just over two hours later and was arraigned

686
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 19: at the Manhattan Criminal Courthouse. He was released on one

687
00:37:57,719 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 19: hundred thousand dollars bail.

688
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 3: What is the truth?

689
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 2: Even amongst us experts here, we can't come to a

690
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 2: consensus because we don't know the facts. But I can

691
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 2: tell you this self defense, if proven at trial, is

692
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 2: a complete defense, as is defense of a third party,

693
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 2: defense of another.

694
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:26,080
Speaker 3: We wait as justice unfolds. Goodbye friend,