1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:06,320 Speaker 1: Quality diarist, but Joseph's gotten more. I want to say 2 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 1: something to you today, and I want you to hear 3 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: me right and understand. In my opinion, and this comes 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: from both professional and personal experience, I wager that there 5 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: is no darker place, particularly for a parent, to be 6 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: in than when it comes to the loss of a child. 7 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 1: You're looking for rock bottom. 8 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 2: You're here. 9 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:49,319 Speaker 1: It seems like nothing else in the world matters. It's 10 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: as if a part of you has died as well, 11 00:00:52,240 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: and it has. I want to revisit a case that 12 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: that we've talked about previously on Bodybacks, and the reason 13 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 1: I want to talk about this today is that there 14 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 1: have been developments. There have been developments in the case 15 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: involving a tiny little life, a life that died in 16 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: the midst of childbirth and the horror that followed that event. 17 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 1: What I'm talking about is the early premature death of 18 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: a little one named Tree Beyond Isaiah Taylor Jr. Otherwise 19 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: known as Baby Isaiah. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this 20 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: is Bodybacks day. Back when we initially covered Baby Isaiah's death. 21 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: I remember following following that episode, I felt a sudden 22 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:20,239 Speaker 1: need to go take a shower, and I needed to 23 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: scrub my brain because I couldn't believe some of the 24 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 1: things that we were hearing that were coming out of well, 25 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 1: let's face at the south side of Atlanta, down in 26 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: Clayton County where this baby had died at Southern Regional Hospital. 27 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: That story in and of itself is horrific, but what 28 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 1: happened afterwards and trying to understand what brought about this 29 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 1: little angel's death, It's like it you see something that 30 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:55,079 Speaker 1: is bad and then you think it can't get any 31 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 1: worse than all of a sudden it does. 32 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:02,359 Speaker 2: It got worse. Did this first episode about baby Isaiah 33 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 2: dying at birth, and we we will recover this again 34 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 2: for those who haven't heard the story yet. But you know, 35 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 2: I didn't really go into a personal side of this 36 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 2: that much. And I when my daughter Hannah was born, 37 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 2: she was stuck. She was not getting over a part. 38 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 2: Now Loadonna had had a child previously by C section, 39 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 2: and she wanted to have Hannah vaginally, a vaginal delivery, 40 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 2: and everything was fine, but her head was not. She 41 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 2: was getting stuck. She was not getting over a hump 42 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 2: in there that was keeping her from and the doctor 43 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 2: was not operating as quickly as the nurse who was 44 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 2: standing there with me thought he should be. But she's 45 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 2: a nurse. I'm the dad, this is my wife, and 46 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 2: you're the doctor. I don't like what he was doing either, 47 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 2: but the bottom line is I realized then how out 48 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 2: of control I was. I'm not in I cannot do 49 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:16,679 Speaker 2: anything to help, and thankfully this nurse when the doctor turned, 50 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:20,280 Speaker 2: she said, Dave, grab her head and push it up 51 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:23,720 Speaker 2: into her belly as hard as you can, and that's 52 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 2: how we got Hannah out. He'd brought up forceps and 53 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 2: actually did cut her, which I know there's a necessity 54 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 2: to them, but please, God, love you don't do that. Yeah, 55 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,359 Speaker 2: but because it does leave damage that stays for a 56 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 2: lifetime and it can be really bad. We didn't experience 57 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 2: that part, but. 58 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, I had a friend of mind that during his 59 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:53,600 Speaker 1: birth he wound up having a His eye was compromised 60 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: in birth as a result of them the manipulation that 61 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: went on, and his eye was always as some people 62 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 1: might call it a lazy eye. 63 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:02,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was. 64 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 1: Drooping, but there was still visible Structurally, you could tell 65 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: that there was something that was off, and a lot 66 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 1: of it has to do with how malleable the skull is, 67 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: I think, but that malleability can sometimes lead to I 68 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: think maybe some practitioners thinking that the body is more 69 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,159 Speaker 1: resilient sometimes than it actually is. And you know, in 70 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 1: the case of Isaiah, well. 71 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 2: When we heard about how that what happened though, Joe, 72 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 2: in that case, the nurses were talking about the pressure 73 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 2: that came to bear and the section that this doctor Houston, 74 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 2: we probably need to go over that a little bit 75 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 2: because whereas I was present when things were happening with 76 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 2: Lodonna and Hannah, and I realized then again how difficult 77 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 2: this is. We take it for granted. We take so 78 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 2: many things in our life today for granted. Childbirth cannot 79 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:03,480 Speaker 2: be taken granted. It's a moment where the new life, 80 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 2: the life of your partner, everybody is at risk. There's 81 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 2: a lot of risk going on at childbirth, and I'm 82 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,919 Speaker 2: so thankful that we have in this country such a 83 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:17,479 Speaker 2: great record for having children. But you know what, the 84 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 2: story of baby Isaiah and the cover up that took 85 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 2: place after it, Yeah, tells you that things are not 86 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,720 Speaker 2: what they seem sometimes and you better trust, you better 87 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 2: study up before you go to have a baby. Know 88 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 2: what a normal delivery time is, know how long a 89 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 2: woman should be in labor before you push for something else. 90 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 2: Because apparently this doctor didn't have a clue. It boggles 91 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:39,720 Speaker 2: my mind. 92 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:43,160 Speaker 1: Joe, Yeah, it does mine as well. And that you 93 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 1: you know, you have to you know, you have to 94 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 1: look at their track record. That's why. You know. The 95 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:52,479 Speaker 1: thing about it is, I think in America we're so 96 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: prone to well, this person has MD after their name, 97 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: and they have these board certifications. Obviously they know what 98 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 1: they're doing. And they wouldn't put you know, my unborn 99 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: child soon to be born at risk, and wouldn't put 100 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 1: and I'm speaking as a husband now, I wouldn't put 101 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: my wife's life at risk because they've been trained to 102 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 1: do these sort of things. And when you know, we 103 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 1: begin to discuss this and talk about the horror that 104 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: was involved and what was and I'll say it, I'll 105 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: say it right here, what was perpetrated upon this very 106 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 1: young couple day where they didn't they didn't know any better. 107 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 1: I mean, you remember when you were a young parent. 108 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: I remember when you know, I didn't have my first 109 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: child until I was a little bit older. You know, 110 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: It's not like I was a nineteen year old kid. 111 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: But still you lean into the idea that they're so 112 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 1: well trained and that they're so highly educated and that 113 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: they're going to help you. You can't see this kind 114 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 1: of catashee happening particularly to you, you know, and the 115 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: ones that you love, and then insult to injury, drag 116 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 1: everybody into this idea that we're going to present these 117 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 1: circumstances as if it's just the child died. The child died. 118 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 1: There was nothing we could. 119 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 2: Do and nothing we did to heart to cause it 120 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 2: and nothing. 121 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, we cannot you know, we're not responsible for this. 122 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: But David, I gotta tell you, man, the physical evidence 123 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 1: here bears out something a bit different, now, doesn't it. 124 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:39,559 Speaker 2: Oh buddy, we know it started July ninth of twenty 125 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:43,439 Speaker 2: twenty three, two years coming up on the two year anniversary. Wow, 126 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 2: this baby would be a little toddler right now. 127 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: Yep. 128 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 2: And Tevion and Isaiah Taylor Sr. And Jessica Ross expecting 129 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:56,959 Speaker 2: the child. They go through everything that she goes through, 130 00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 2: the prenatal care. They do everything they're supposed to do. 131 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 2: She goes into labor ninth and during the vaginal birth, 132 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 2: the baby's the baby boy's shoulders got stuck. Now, you 133 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 2: know a lot more about biology and how the body 134 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 2: works than I do, but a shoulder getting stuck during 135 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:19,560 Speaker 2: birth doesn't seem like it would be something unheard of, 136 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:23,439 Speaker 2: something that can't be overcome in this day and age 137 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 2: that you know, something's obviously not right here. 138 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:31,079 Speaker 1: Yeah, And so most of the time in these deliveries, 139 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: there are multiple ways that you can kind of spur 140 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 1: things on. I think one of the things that that 141 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: kind of comes to mind first. Then these these are 142 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 1: not necessarily applicable in every one of the circumstances. But 143 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: some things we just kind of naturally think about is like, well, 144 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 1: an episiotomy if you've ever heard that term, if you 145 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 1: think of if you think of the vaginal opening as 146 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 1: a clock face at six o'clock position, there will be 147 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 1: an ensue made, and that's to accommodate the size of 148 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 1: the child in order to facilitate because there's this critical point. 149 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: I think that when practitioners get to where they have 150 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:18,200 Speaker 1: to make a decision if if we're going to do 151 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:20,559 Speaker 1: a C section, we need to do it now before 152 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 1: it gets to this point. And that's you know, that's 153 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:26,439 Speaker 1: the rub here. But you know, there's suction that's available, 154 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 1: there's various rotations of the child's body that can take place. 155 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 1: That's one of the things that doctors will do, and 156 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: the nurses, the midwives that go in and they can 157 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 1: turn turn the baby in order to facilitate this. And 158 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 1: it takes, you know, you have to have a great 159 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 1: scientific mind to be an effective practitioner, but it takes 160 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 1: a bit of finesse too, that comes along with just 161 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: experience and these sorts of things, and every every person 162 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: is different and how they're going to respond because not 163 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 1: everybody's body is the same. 164 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 2: Man. You know, I'm so glad you said that, Joe, 165 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 2: because as I was sitting here thinking about this, you know, 166 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 2: of my children didn't have had a little bit of 167 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 2: problem with Andrew, but no problems with Tyler. Haley was 168 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:18,839 Speaker 2: a c section, but then Hannah that that was the 169 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 2: only problem I had encountered with the child being born. 170 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 2: And I'm still remembering that moment, and that's why this 171 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 2: really has hit home for me. It really has because 172 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:34,959 Speaker 2: I made some decisions for my wife that I had 173 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 2: to make that I wasn't prepared to make, you know, 174 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:40,319 Speaker 2: just in case. But I also look at this now 175 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 2: and realize that this child they tried to suction, they 176 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,440 Speaker 2: tried to use traction to pull this baby. Yeah, his 177 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:52,959 Speaker 2: shoulders are stuck. He's not coming out. And this woman, 178 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:56,079 Speaker 2: this poor woman is in labor for hours, Joe, for 179 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 2: hours and hours, and the baby gets stuck. At eight 180 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 2: forty pm. They know the time the baby gets stuck. 181 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:07,319 Speaker 2: Eight forty pm. That's when the trauma begins. They meaning 182 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 2: the nurses and everything're like, we need to do an 183 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 2: emergency C section. Doctor didn't do it. Kept pulling, kept pulling, 184 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 2: kept using suction, was using traction rather, what is traction 185 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 2: on the head of a baby? 186 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: Well, would this methodology that you're referring to. They can 187 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:35,679 Speaker 1: brace the head in a particular way so that they 188 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: can apply leverage in the vaginal opening and literally pull. 189 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 1: I think that a lot of people think, you know, automatically, 190 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 1: when you think about traction, Okay, the first thing you 191 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:51,680 Speaker 1: think about is when you're treating an adult that has 192 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 1: like a neck injury. 193 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:53,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, That's what I'm thinking about. 194 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you set up in traction in order to 195 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: elongate the spine. And that's generally from a manipulative standpoint, 196 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 1: And I mean that in the sense of manipulation of 197 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:11,199 Speaker 1: spine and the musculatory of destructure and everything. A matter 198 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:12,959 Speaker 1: of fact, one of the medical examiners I used to 199 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 1: work with, he's passed on now. He had he had 200 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 1: he suffered from gyon Bret syndrome, and he had all 201 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 1: kinds of muscle issues and those sorts of things. And 202 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:30,440 Speaker 1: he would put himself in traction in his office every day, 203 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: and his doctor had urged him to do this, and 204 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: he would counterweight it with bags of water. And I'll 205 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 1: never forget. This contraption has set up on his sofa 206 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: and it would literally elongate or pull his head. And 207 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: I never could understand the ration. And I was I 208 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: didn't have deep conversations with this man. He was very, 209 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 1: very formal person. I just saw it in there and 210 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: I asked him one time, what is that? And he says, 211 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: that's traction for my gym beret. And I'm thinking, hmm, 212 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 1: that's interesting. I didn't know you need attraction for gambret. 213 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 1: But whatever. But you're talking about when you apply when 214 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 1: you apply this kind of force to a baby that's 215 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 1: not even born yet. Okay, we always think about how 216 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: resilient little kids are, you know, they can take certain 217 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 1: types of force and trauma that we as adults can't. 218 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 1: But that tissue is so very fragile, Dave, and all 219 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: it takes is this kind of force being exerted over 220 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: a protracted period of time, which is what happened. And 221 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 1: Dave a gout to tell you for our listeners that 222 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: don't know, she applied so much for us for such 223 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: a long period of time that she actually wound up 224 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 1: to capitate this child. Do you remember, Dave, I know 225 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: I do vividly. When your newborn is swaddled for the 226 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: first time and they hand that child to you. First off, 227 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 1: you have this feeling that you're insufficient to the task, 228 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: even though people have been doing this for thousands of 229 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: thousands of years. You think you're the one person in 230 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 1: all of human history that's not going to be able 231 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: to do this. And it's a real fear. It's a 232 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: real fear, particularly I think for men in particularly because 233 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 1: we can be really clumsy. And sometimes I was going 234 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: to drop Andrew, that was my biggest football or big 235 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: he was. 236 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 2: He was almost ten pounds and he's huge, and it 237 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 2: was like I kept thinking, if I drop him, what happens? 238 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 1: You know? 239 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 2: Exactly. Why couldn't I get that out of my head? 240 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: And it's not terrified and it's terrifil I'm just putting 241 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: them in the car to bring them home. It was 242 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 1: for me, you know. But the joy that is kind 243 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: of it's one of those moments. It's a spiritual moment. 244 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: I would say. My wife always says that when her 245 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 1: children have been born, she knows that God was present 246 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 1: in the room. That's what she's always said. And when 247 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 1: that child is handed over to you and you embrace 248 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: that child, I get chills just speaking about it right now, 249 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: that precious moment does And Dave, it's my understanding if 250 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 1: and I might be misremembering, but it's it is true 251 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: that they were not allowed to hold this baby immediately, no, 252 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: and that that's where this thing kind of really goes 253 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: off the rails. 254 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 2: Here. You're right, it goes off the wheels fairly early on. 255 00:16:56,480 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 2: But here's the deception, and here's the Okay, she's in 256 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 2: labor for a number of hours, the shoulders are stuck, 257 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:06,880 Speaker 2: and they say, okay, we're going to have to do 258 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 2: an emergency sea section. So hours after labor begins, they 259 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:15,680 Speaker 2: wheel her upstairs to do this emergency sea section. As 260 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:18,920 Speaker 2: Joe told you just a minute ago, the baby was decapitated. 261 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 2: They actually pulled the baby's trunk or the body without 262 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 2: the head by sea section, yep, and had her. She 263 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 2: had to give birth to the baby's head. Yeah, Now 264 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:41,119 Speaker 2: they didn't. The parents don't know what's going on. They 265 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 2: don't have a clue because these are kids. Yeah they're 266 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 2: young in my mind. Yeah, well yeah, and they are. 267 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 2: But you know what, they don't know what to expect. Look, 268 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 2: the doctor's there, they're doing a c section. You don't 269 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 2: know what all's going on, because you know, you know 270 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,160 Speaker 2: what you're told. And so as they're doing these things 271 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 2: and they get the they then take the baby. The 272 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:05,880 Speaker 2: parents don't know the baby is decapitated. Now they are 273 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 2: told the baby didn't live. And the nurses or the staff, 274 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:13,880 Speaker 2: I'm gonna say staff. I don't want to impugne anybody. 275 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 2: I don't know who did this. I don't know, but 276 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:22,120 Speaker 2: I know that this couple wanted to hold their baby, 277 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 2: dead or not. We want to hold our baby. That's 278 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 2: our baby. We've already got a name for this baby. 279 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:31,720 Speaker 2: It's Trevian Isaiah. You know this is our son. I'm gonna, 280 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 2: And so the staff then wrapped this baby's body and 281 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 2: head in such a way that they placed the head 282 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:46,639 Speaker 2: on top of the body and wrapped it like you 283 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 2: would swaddow a baby, but wrapped it tighter around the 284 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 2: head so they could pass it off as a natural 285 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 2: death at birth, that there was nothing wrong, just the 286 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 2: baby died at birth. 287 00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:57,359 Speaker 1: Yeah. 288 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:03,639 Speaker 2: Now I go back to my fear of holding you know, 289 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,680 Speaker 2: my son Andrew when he was born, and I'm thinking 290 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 2: they were probably the same way, even though they know 291 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:10,880 Speaker 2: the baby is dead, but they're thinking the baby's still born. 292 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 2: You know that they're thinking something along those lines has transpired. 293 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 2: They're grieving, they're exhausted, their panic, they're all the horrible 294 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 2: things that you must go through at that moment I 295 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 2: cannot imagine. And they're handed this baby as if there's 296 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 2: no more damage to look at. They were lied to, 297 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 2: They were cheated and lied to by everybody involved. How 298 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 2: do you hold a baby's head onto. 299 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: How do you know, how do you fix the body 300 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 1: to the point where you feel comfortable enough as a clinician, 301 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: and clinician is very broad term to mean anybody who 302 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 1: had a hand in this. You feel comfortable enough to 303 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: hand the deep, decay appetated body of an infant. But 304 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 1: yet the head has been placed and secured quote unquote 305 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 1: in a manner in which you feel secure enough that 306 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 1: the head I hate, say this is not going to 307 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,120 Speaker 1: roll off and wind up in the floor or wind 308 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: up in mom's lap. Because I got to tell you, you know, 309 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:25,440 Speaker 1: when my child was born, my children have been born, 310 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: I don't go to their toes to kiss their toes. 311 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 1: I'm kissing all over that forehead. When my son Isaac died, 312 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,920 Speaker 1: I was holding him when he passed, and I kiss 313 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:41,680 Speaker 1: that baby all over his face, you know. And it's 314 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 1: one of those things I'm telling you. It's one of 315 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:49,400 Speaker 1: those things as parent that you it's almost like it's 316 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:53,440 Speaker 1: confirmatory to me it is all right, being the father 317 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: of a child that passed away. I think that it's 318 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:01,399 Speaker 1: just that touch you want to confirm that a child 319 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: has passed on, you know, and just opposite, I mean, 320 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: when a child is alive, you want to feel that 321 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 1: warmth that transfers from their body to your lips as 322 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:14,920 Speaker 1: you're touching your lips to them. But Dave, if it 323 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 1: kind of a hero appears in all of this, because 324 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: if it had not been for the funeral home in 325 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:29,880 Speaker 1: this case, my friend, the family would have been none 326 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:34,679 Speaker 1: the wiser. Can you imagine being a funeral director, you know, 327 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: after the family has called you and said, look, we 328 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 1: want to honor our child, have a service for the child. 329 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 1: And yes, and let me tell you how this works 330 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 1: in case folks are not aware when someone passed away 331 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 1: to the hospital, it can be a baby or an adult. 332 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,879 Speaker 1: They will fill out an entire death packet at the 333 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: hospital and when it's generally a social worker comes and 334 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:00,879 Speaker 1: talks to the family to say what funeral home do 335 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,639 Speaker 1: you want want to handle this? And the social worker 336 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: many times will reach out, you know, to the funeral home. 337 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 1: Of course, families reaching out at the same time too, 338 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 1: and then they will arrange for the body to be 339 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,720 Speaker 1: picked up. Here's something that folks don't know. When babies die, 340 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 1: they pass away in the hospital. Did you know that 341 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: we have a little funeral homes in particularly have these 342 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: They have these little open boxes. I guess they're probably 343 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 1: about three feet now it's probably not that, about two 344 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:36,399 Speaker 1: feet by a foot and they're hinged and they have 345 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 1: a handle right in the center of it, and it 346 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,479 Speaker 1: looks like a miniature casket almost, And what they will 347 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:45,400 Speaker 1: do is they'll walk in to the morgue and they'll 348 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 1: open they'll open the top of this box and they 349 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 1: place the baby in the box. They cover the baby 350 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: in the sheet, and they transport the baby and no 351 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: one really knows what they have in the box. Okay, 352 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 1: it's not like they walk in with a stretcher. They'll 353 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,080 Speaker 1: just walk right back out, getting the funeral home vehicle 354 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 1: and off they go to the funeral home to preped body. 355 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 1: First time I ever saw one of those things, it was, 356 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:08,439 Speaker 1: you know, I've seen a lot of ghastly things that 357 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 1: kind of center like a night gallery, you know, Rod's 358 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,640 Speaker 1: Serling night Gallery. Kind of shiver up my spine because 359 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,159 Speaker 1: it's got this kind of creepy old feel to it 360 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,679 Speaker 1: when you see these boxes, and they used to always 361 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,920 Speaker 1: have these. But when the funeral home came to pick 362 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 1: up this child's body, I can only imagine that the 363 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 1: people in the hospital that we're thinking about this, they 364 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 1: were thinking, how in the world are we going to 365 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,880 Speaker 1: explain this? Because now that body's out of our control. 366 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: That body's out of our control, you know what. That's 367 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 1: that's no different day than these cases that we have taught, 368 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: and we've had this discussion brother, where we've talked about 369 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 1: how perpetrators that kill individuals sometimes they will bury them 370 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: at their own home. They will retain the body so 371 00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 1: that they always can guarantee that they have total and 372 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: complete control all over the body. And for me, that 373 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 1: pops in my mind with this where they're thinking, oh, 374 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,119 Speaker 1: my lord, you know, once once that threshold is called 375 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 1: is crossed, we no longer have control over these remains. 376 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 2: That's exactly what happened. You know. It was kind of 377 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:21,479 Speaker 2: interesting here because I've approached this having experienced something now 378 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 2: that I'm much more familiar with the process of death 379 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:30,159 Speaker 2: at a hospital, and I look at this young couple. 380 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 2: They expected to go into the hospital as too and 381 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 2: come out with a family of three and beginning their 382 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 2: life together. And now they're faced with all of these 383 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 2: very fast decisions that have to be made because and 384 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:45,440 Speaker 2: they're pushed on it. They want to answers, they want 385 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 2: to know what happened. They're told by the hospital that 386 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,399 Speaker 2: they don't have a right to a free autopsy. You know, 387 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 2: they want to know what happened, you know, why did 388 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,160 Speaker 2: my baby die? Why is my son not going home 389 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 2: with me, and the hospital is like, nah, you don't. 390 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 2: You don't have a right to know. I mean, yeah, 391 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 2: you can pay for it if you want to pay 392 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 2: to have it done. You have done. But just baby died. 393 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:11,399 Speaker 2: Babies died during birth. It happened. Sorry, sorry, And so 394 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 2: they're kind of bum rushed out of the place now 395 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 2: as this baby was taken to the nursing the funeral home. 396 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 2: And I'm so glad you mentioned the heroic nature of 397 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 2: this because had it not been for the funeral home, 398 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 2: nobody would have known. The cover up would have been easy. 399 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,160 Speaker 2: And I'm gonna be honest with you, I wonder how 400 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:33,359 Speaker 2: many times things are done, you know, with a phone 401 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 2: call and a couple thousand dollars to somebody. Think about it, 402 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,399 Speaker 2: they could have done a number of things that we 403 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,919 Speaker 2: and we would have never known about this, but they 404 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:46,479 Speaker 2: were they were told they had to pay for their 405 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 2: own autopsy, and after and then after they found out 406 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,679 Speaker 2: from the nursing home that what had actually happened, you know, 407 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:54,679 Speaker 2: that there was a decapitation. And that's where I was 408 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:59,400 Speaker 2: wondering from your standpoint, from the what happens when look, 409 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 2: I get it that baby dies naturally they're a still 410 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:07,679 Speaker 2: birth something like that. That's a that I don't I mean, 411 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 2: as as horrible as that would be, that would have 412 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:16,120 Speaker 2: to be seen as different than a baby that is decapitated, right, it. 413 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 1: Would, it would. And I got to tell you with 414 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:24,920 Speaker 1: a this is the interesting thing with and this would 415 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:29,159 Speaker 1: be and the way the way clinicians will frame this, 416 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 1: and it's always made my teeth hurt every time I 417 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:39,119 Speaker 1: hear this term. They would use the term medical misadventure, 418 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: and they throw that term around a lot. Well, it's 419 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:47,920 Speaker 1: a medical misadventure. Oh well, you know, that's just the 420 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 1: way things are. Medical misadventure, medical misadventure. And I've worked 421 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 1: cases day with quote unquote medical misadventure where there was 422 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,640 Speaker 1: where there's there was such shoddy work that was done 423 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 1: that it would be it would equate two for a 424 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: civilian in a civilian world outside And when I say civilian, 425 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,119 Speaker 1: I mean when not talking about military, I'm talking about 426 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: an average, an average person outside of the clinical environment. 427 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 1: You'd be charged with manslaughter at a baseline, right, Okay, 428 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 1: But yet they'll use that term medical misadventure many times. 429 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,199 Speaker 1: And I can tell you that's probably how you know 430 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:35,160 Speaker 1: that's what they're thinking, perhaps in this particular case, and yeah, 431 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 1: they had to. And well, let me educate you about 432 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: one more thing. I feel. I feel like I'm preaching 433 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:41,639 Speaker 1: right now. 434 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:46,120 Speaker 2: Uh, no questions I have about this. 435 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: Well, Listen, if a child dies, there are so many. 436 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,360 Speaker 1: First off, you want to know why did they die? 437 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:57,120 Speaker 1: Because if the parents which we know this parent, these 438 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 1: parents had had gone through all of their prenatal meetings. Okay, 439 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: they've been being followed all these sorts of things, and 440 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 1: the days arriving, you know, they're all excited. 441 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 2: For all. 442 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: I know, they went through Lama's classes together. I have 443 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:18,160 Speaker 1: no idea, but you have to be able to give 444 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 1: a scientific reason why this child died. I think in 445 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 1: most cases, even with still bursts, that as part and 446 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 1: parcel of the service that the hospital provides for, you know, 447 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 1: a birth. If the child dies, it's pretty standard for 448 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 1: them to do a hospital autopsy. Okay, you know it 449 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 1: truly is. And this idea that no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, 450 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: you're not. But back to the medical misadventure, Dave, this 451 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: is actually a case. 452 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 2: That's reportable to the corner, right, That's what I was thinking, asking. 453 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah it is. And Most of the time, still 454 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 1: bursts were reportable to the corner medical examiner. Most of 455 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 1: them are. I mean, I can't tell you how many 456 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:06,959 Speaker 1: still birth cases I've taken report of over the phone. Now, 457 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 1: I wouldn't go to the hospital to I wouldn't go 458 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 1: to the hospital to examine a stillborn child, but it 459 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 1: would still be reportable to us. We'd write a report 460 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: of okay, And sometimes a baby would have a name. 461 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 1: Sometimes a baby would not have a name. It's a 462 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 1: weird kind of thing that happens. And when you think 463 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 1: about this, this ain't a still birth. This is not 464 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 1: how you would define a still birth. Okay. Now, if 465 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 1: you've ever been in a laboring delivery suite, you know 466 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 1: that you know there's monitors everywhere. Oh yeah, monitor the 467 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 1: baby's heartbeat, all that sort of stuff. And this is 468 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: I think what's the big mystery right now is to 469 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 1: know if they had that fetal heart monitor going at 470 00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: that point in tom And this will be a question 471 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 1: that will come up, at what point in time did 472 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 1: that child to rest? Because this is not a still birth. 473 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 1: This is not some kind of genetic thing that's going 474 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 1: on where you know the child is not going to 475 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 1: be viable and they die maybe in utero, which happens 476 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 1: many times, and the mother has to deliver. Those are 477 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 1: very sad. That is a classic still birth. This ain't 478 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 1: no still birth, brother, You're talking about a baby who's 479 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 1: had his head removed during delivery. 480 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 2: This is a traumatic death. 481 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: Years ago, when I was working down in New Orleans, 482 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 1: I was working as a path assistant and as a 483 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 1: corner investigator and was working with this one physician and 484 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:13,239 Speaker 1: he was rather in circles of forensic pathology. He was 485 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 1: nationally well known, and I never could understand why he 486 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 1: was working at our office. It's not that our office 487 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 1: was a bad place. It's the level of renown that 488 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 1: this individual had experienced prior to arrival at our office 489 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 1: was pretty significant. They had been a deputy chief medical 490 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 1: examiner in a major US city at one point in time, 491 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 1: but yet they landed at our office. So you always 492 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 1: have questions about that sort of thing. As it turned out, 493 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 1: this individual had made a stop in between their deputy 494 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:04,959 Speaker 1: chief medical examiner position and our position in New Orleans. 495 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 1: They had stopped off at another office, and while at 496 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 1: that office, this forensic pathologist was tasked with trying to 497 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: understand could a baby sustain a fracture at a certain 498 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 1: age when falling from a certain height. The forensic pathologists 499 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 1: took it upon themselves to begin to conduct experiments, and 500 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 1: as a result of those experiments, a baby or baby's 501 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 1: were dropped from a variety of heights. And it just 502 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 1: so happened that this was witnessed by staff member who 503 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 1: reported them. When I found that out that this individual 504 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: had been involved in the so called experiments, I couldn't 505 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 1: believe that I was standing at the same table with 506 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,479 Speaker 1: this individual doing post mortem examinations with them, because they 507 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 1: did wind up getting sued, They did wind up being 508 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 1: found liable, and the university that they were associated with 509 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 1: was sued as well. You know, it had only been 510 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 1: I guess at that time that was in the eighties. 511 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 1: It had only been I don't know, probably at that 512 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 1: time less than forty years earlier, when a group of 513 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 1: people were doing experiments on another group of people. It's 514 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 1: something that's so incredibly abhorrent and it runs contrary to 515 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 1: every single ideal that we hold up in the medical 516 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 1: legal community. And Dave, I got to tell you, brother, 517 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 1: if you thought the story the decapitation when it comes 518 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 1: to basic baby Isaiah is bad. This is what we meant. 519 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:10,799 Speaker 1: It went from bad to worse, and now we have 520 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,319 Speaker 1: new news that has burst on the horizon relative to 521 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 1: all of this. 522 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 2: As you know, they did file lawsuits. You know, in 523 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:20,839 Speaker 2: this day and age, you're not going to get by 524 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,920 Speaker 2: without somebody standing in the gap and saying something is 525 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 2: wrong here, and we're going to help you take care 526 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:31,520 Speaker 2: of this. And that's what they did. Thankfully, somebody did 527 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 2: help parents provide well. They sued just about everybody involved. 528 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 2: But one thing they did, Joe, they got their own 529 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:45,680 Speaker 2: autopsy done. Remember how I told you to the hospital 530 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 2: said they weren't entitled to a free autopsy. That was 531 00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 2: the hospital's way of bullying them. I think it was. 532 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,439 Speaker 1: I concur with your assessment, brother, But. 533 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,720 Speaker 2: They got an autopsy, they found it. And to be clear, 534 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,719 Speaker 2: I asked you about this earlier during the review show 535 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 2: because I didn't know you could pay for an autopsy, 536 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 2: Like I mean, I didn't really think about it because 537 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 2: I would just assume that if a body needs an autopsy, 538 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:15,280 Speaker 2: it gets done, not that you actually have to fight 539 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,239 Speaker 2: to have an autopsy done on your child. And that's 540 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:21,040 Speaker 2: what they did. They paid to have it done. They 541 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 2: found a doctor they would do it. Now, that was 542 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:28,400 Speaker 2: the good news. The bad news is well again, remember 543 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 2: that this family did not hear from the doctor, the nurses, 544 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:34,720 Speaker 2: or anybody at the hospital what had happened to their baby. 545 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:37,120 Speaker 2: They didn't find that out. They found it out from 546 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:41,840 Speaker 2: the nursing home, I mean not in the funeral home. So, 547 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 2: realizing that they were lied to, they went and hired 548 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:51,920 Speaker 2: doctor Jackson Gates to perform an autopsy. Doctor Jackson Gates 549 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:58,840 Speaker 2: does an autopsy and then, in a violation of every 550 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 2: thing I can imagine. I cannot think of one redeeming 551 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:12,440 Speaker 2: thing to say about what he did with a videotape 552 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,279 Speaker 2: of the autopsy. 553 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 1: You know, for years, this is okay, Just so that 554 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:25,319 Speaker 1: we're clear on this. For years, I've had people that 555 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,840 Speaker 1: would come to me and they would they would beg 556 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,719 Speaker 1: to be able to attend an autopsy, just people that 557 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 1: are curious. I've got tons of medical student, nursing students, 558 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 1: and of course cops. Because autopsies are not something that 559 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 1: you normally get access to. First off, you have no 560 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 1: way of vetting the person that's going to come through 561 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:50,759 Speaker 1: the door. You don't know who's going to show or 562 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 1: what they're what their true reason is. And nowadays, in particular, 563 00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:57,400 Speaker 1: you never know what the reason is. You know what 564 00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 1: I mean. You can't do anything in public without somebody 565 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:05,040 Speaker 1: having a camera and their videotape. You could just be 566 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 1: having a regular everyday discussion with somebody and something that 567 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 1: you say can be taken out of context. Well, I 568 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:17,120 Speaker 1: got to tell you, it might wind up on social media. 569 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:24,239 Speaker 1: And Dave, again, we have an example of somebody, a pathologist, 570 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 1: who felt like that it was a good idea to 571 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 1: do the post warnum examination on this precious child and 572 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 1: then display the body in an Instagram reel. An Instagram reel, Dave, Yeah, 573 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:59,440 Speaker 1: pictures and video of this child's macerated body and. 574 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:05,239 Speaker 2: Display so it's like and by the way, without the 575 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:09,640 Speaker 2: permission of the parents. Now I could see if and 576 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:11,719 Speaker 2: I can't imagine a parent doing this. But let's just 577 00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,399 Speaker 2: say for the sake of argument, that doctor Gates went 578 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 2: to them and said, look, there's some educational value. I 579 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:22,160 Speaker 2: would like to share some of this autoposy with whoever, 580 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:26,200 Speaker 2: other professionals, whatever. There might be some value in that. 581 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 2: I don't know what it would be, but doctor Jackson 582 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,000 Speaker 2: Gates doesn't bother to ask them permission to do anything. 583 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,440 Speaker 2: He posts them on Instagram for all the world to see, 584 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:38,680 Speaker 2: and that's how they found out about it. It wasn't 585 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,960 Speaker 2: like they called for permission, Joe. Somebody saw it and said, hey, 586 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:43,799 Speaker 2: what is this? 587 00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:46,440 Speaker 1: Well, you ought to have the good sense to understand 588 00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:50,640 Speaker 1: first off, that it doesn't You don't have to be 589 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:55,040 Speaker 1: a board certified forensic pathologist to appreciate this. This is 590 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,440 Speaker 1: going to blind up in a lawsuit. And I'm not 591 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:03,040 Speaker 1: talking about the Instagram thing, which obviously does. However, the 592 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,799 Speaker 1: death of this baby at this hospital is going to 593 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:13,040 Speaker 1: wind up in litigation. In what universe have you decided 594 00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:16,759 Speaker 1: that this is a good idea that I should take 595 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:22,840 Speaker 1: imagery of this baby and display it for the entire world. 596 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:27,400 Speaker 1: Particularly that's bad enough, but particularly understanding the fact that 597 00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,600 Speaker 1: this is going to go to court. Okay, it's going 598 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:34,400 Speaker 1: to go to court. I can you know, dollars to donuts? 599 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:36,240 Speaker 1: I bet you that it's going to go to court, 600 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:39,840 Speaker 1: which it's going to and you're going to You've so 601 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: not only not only are you compromising the not only 602 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:50,480 Speaker 1: are these poor parents being subjected to this Emotionally, what 603 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:52,880 Speaker 1: happened to their baby what they eventually found out with 604 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:58,000 Speaker 1: the decapitation during birth. And not only are you humiliating 605 00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:01,640 Speaker 1: them further because this is the ultimate and humiliation by 606 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:08,720 Speaker 1: displaying the desecrated remains of their baby, now you're putting 607 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:12,400 Speaker 1: them at risk for what's going to happen in the 608 00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:16,360 Speaker 1: courts later on, you know, by displaying the images. You know, 609 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:21,120 Speaker 1: because any any defense attorney worth their you know, worth 610 00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:26,399 Speaker 1: their weight, is going to be questioning this imagery that's 611 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:30,520 Speaker 1: put up and they'll ask questions. They'll say, well, you know, 612 00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,640 Speaker 1: our defendant here was just trying to do their job 613 00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,319 Speaker 1: at the hospital as an obg y N. Now you've 614 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,640 Speaker 1: hired this person that's going to display this for the 615 00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,560 Speaker 1: whole world. It's a mockery, you know, and now our 616 00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:45,279 Speaker 1: client can't be treated fairly by the courts. You see 617 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:49,439 Speaker 1: how this works, and so your inability to be able 618 00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:55,840 Speaker 1: to control your actions relative to social media and what's 619 00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:59,680 Speaker 1: going to happen, you know. I hope, I hope, against 620 00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:05,160 Speaker 1: hope that there is some You can never replace a 621 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:10,120 Speaker 1: child period and as you as we always say on 622 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:13,760 Speaker 1: the show, there's no such thing as closure. But I 623 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:17,440 Speaker 1: hope that the reward that is going to drop into 624 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,120 Speaker 1: the lap of this family. And I'm not talking about 625 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:24,960 Speaker 1: just monetarily, but receiving some kind of satisfaction from the 626 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,640 Speaker 1: courts is going to go at least some small way 627 00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:32,560 Speaker 1: in trying to heal them in some level so that 628 00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:35,960 Speaker 1: maybe they'll be brave enough to have another child at 629 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:37,640 Speaker 1: some point in time. But I gotta tell you, brother, 630 00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:41,120 Speaker 1: if this was me, it would put me so off 631 00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:44,319 Speaker 1: of wanting to bring new life into this world. By 632 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:48,719 Speaker 1: this experience, yeah, I would really question my reality. 633 00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:51,560 Speaker 2: Man. They did sue everybody involved, including doctor Gates. Now 634 00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:53,920 Speaker 2: the reason we're doing the show update today is because 635 00:41:55,440 --> 00:42:00,200 Speaker 2: the trial the jury has made an announcement about the 636 00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:03,279 Speaker 2: lawsuit about what doctor Gates did. He's the one that 637 00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:06,360 Speaker 2: did the autopsy and put the stuff on social media. 638 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:09,480 Speaker 2: I want to read you the jury's ruling. The jury 639 00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:15,000 Speaker 2: find that for intentional infliction of emotional distress, invasion of 640 00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:21,359 Speaker 2: privacy through intrusion into private affairs, and fraud, defendant Jackson Lgates, MD, 641 00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:25,439 Speaker 2: and Gates Rapid Diagnostic Laboratory of Atlanta, doing business as 642 00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:31,080 Speaker 2: Medical Diagnostic Choices will pay two million dollars in compensatory 643 00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:36,279 Speaker 2: damages to Jessica Ross and Trevion Isaiah Taylor Senior. That 644 00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:40,000 Speaker 2: was the jury's ruling. The jury also awarded an additional 645 00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:43,480 Speaker 2: two hundred and fifty thousand dollars impunitive damages. That's the 646 00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:47,799 Speaker 2: maximum amount allowed, so two and a quarter million that 647 00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:52,600 Speaker 2: will be paid, hopefully without argument, by the insurance company 648 00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:57,719 Speaker 2: that doctor Gates has. I'm sure he has one. They 649 00:42:57,840 --> 00:42:59,640 Speaker 2: start with that. Now. I want to be clear on 650 00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:03,160 Speaker 2: this because this is not over. This is just doctor 651 00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,720 Speaker 2: Gates putting the video, which that's you know what, Joe, 652 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:12,520 Speaker 2: I cannot imagine the You can get past a lot 653 00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:14,719 Speaker 2: of things, you know. You can look at it and 654 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,279 Speaker 2: go they did they may you know, even if I 655 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:20,000 Speaker 2: believe they were wrong and what happened was a bad 656 00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:24,200 Speaker 2: outcome and they deserve to you can get past that 657 00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:27,920 Speaker 2: by saying they didn't intentionally kill my child. That wasn't 658 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:30,320 Speaker 2: their game plan. They weren't trying to kill this baby. 659 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,080 Speaker 2: The baby died by their actions, but that wasn't their intent. 660 00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:36,880 Speaker 2: You could get by that at some point, maybe, but 661 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,160 Speaker 2: you can never get past the fact that an adult 662 00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:44,479 Speaker 2: doctor that you're paying to give you the truth about 663 00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:50,560 Speaker 2: what happened to your child violated your trust. Emotional damage 664 00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:53,680 Speaker 2: of putting your baby up for all the world to 665 00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:59,839 Speaker 2: see something so private, something so painful. They'll never get 666 00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:01,680 Speaker 2: a that there's no closure. 667 00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:04,240 Speaker 1: And you know, you know what they say the Internet, 668 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:09,000 Speaker 1: it lives forever, It lives forever. So whoever was out 669 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,600 Speaker 1: there that happened to see this before it was taken down, 670 00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:17,600 Speaker 1: they've got video captures of this now, Dave, I guarantee 671 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:19,560 Speaker 1: you as sure as the sun is going to rise 672 00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:23,080 Speaker 1: in the east tomorrow morning, I guarantee you that those 673 00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:26,480 Speaker 1: images are floating around out there. What you know, who 674 00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:29,439 Speaker 1: does the family see about that? Who do they see 675 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,960 Speaker 1: about it? Please tell me? And I I'm you know, 676 00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:35,319 Speaker 1: I don't mean you to give me an answer for that. 677 00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:38,319 Speaker 1: But who do you go and complain to about that? 678 00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:42,360 Speaker 1: There is nobody you can complain to about that. This 679 00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:44,719 Speaker 1: is a you know, I would like to call this 680 00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:49,120 Speaker 1: a series of unfortunate instances in their life. But Dave, 681 00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:52,120 Speaker 1: some of this stuff, all the way from the birth 682 00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:58,640 Speaker 1: to the post wartem circumstances, there is and certainly with 683 00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:02,680 Speaker 1: the delivery. I don't think that there's specific content there, 684 00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:07,319 Speaker 1: but there are decisions that could have been made that 685 00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:12,200 Speaker 1: would have had a better outcome than what we're seeing 686 00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:16,520 Speaker 1: right now, because I got to tell you, David, there 687 00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:22,200 Speaker 1: is not enough money in this old world to heal 688 00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:27,840 Speaker 1: the broken hearts of these parents. May rest in peace. 689 00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:33,400 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scotten Morgan and this is Body Backs