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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. Hello and welcome to

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Speaker 1: another episode of The Odd Lots Podcast. I'm Jill Why

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Speaker 1: Isn't Thal?

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Speaker 2: And I'm Tracy Alloway.

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Speaker 1: First of all, are we calling it football?

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Speaker 3: Sorry?

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Speaker 1: Are we to say?

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Speaker 3: You know?

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Speaker 1: I'm fine with either. I've accept whatever. I don't feel strongly,

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Speaker 1: but just for like consistency stake, I guess we'll just

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Speaker 1: call it football on this episode if you want.

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Speaker 2: That's fine with me. I like that you're defining the

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Speaker 2: terms beforehand.

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Speaker 1: It's important as long as we all are operating. Listen,

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Speaker 1: I'm happy to call it football. Busy time obviously, coming

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Speaker 1: back to.

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Speaker 2: The in the sports, in the sports sports world, in

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Speaker 2: the sports.

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Speaker 1: World, I think when you landed back from our recent

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Speaker 1: trip to Asia, it was like literally like the final

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Speaker 1: minutes of the knickt winning.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was nuts. I was driving through Lower Manhattan

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Speaker 2: and every one was spilling out into the streets watching

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Speaker 2: the game through like the windows of bars and stuff.

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Speaker 2: And then of course when they won, you could hear

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Speaker 2: the entire city just go nuts.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So part of me is like, why aren't we doing

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Speaker 2: a basketball episode because it feels very much like New

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Speaker 2: York is actually focused on basketball at the moment, even

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Speaker 2: though we obviously have a very big football slash soccer event.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I was. I was walking through my neighborhood.

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Speaker 1: I live in these village last night, like everyone. It's

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Speaker 1: very festive time in the city. Everyone was like sitting

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Speaker 1: out in outdoor bars and stuff, like watching whatever World

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Speaker 1: Cup match was on last time.

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Speaker 2: Obviously whatever World Cup match, I forget what was airing.

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Speaker 1: Well.

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Speaker 2: To be fair, yes, you could lose track in this

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Speaker 2: particular World Cup because it's the biggest ever World Cup.

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Speaker 1: What does it mean?

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Speaker 2: So it means they have like the most teams playing

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Speaker 2: the most games ever. I can't remember the exact number,

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Speaker 2: but I think it's almost fifty teams versus previously it

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Speaker 2: was about thirty teams thirty two.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so fixed.

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Speaker 2: FIFA argued that this is about making the game even bigger,

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Speaker 2: you know, diversity and inclusion and all of that. But

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Speaker 2: if you were going to be cynical, and some people

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Speaker 2: would argue you should be cynical when it comes to FIFA,

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Speaker 2: you could argue that it's about selling more ads, selling

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Speaker 2: more tickets to more games, and also internal politics, so

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Speaker 2: currying favor with some smaller nations for political reasons. All

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Speaker 2: of that.

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Speaker 1: That makes sense actually, because I was sort of wondering,

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Speaker 1: no offense.

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Speaker 2: We're going to offend so many people in this episode.

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Speaker 2: I can already tell you I.

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Speaker 1: Was pretty impressive that, like curs Ou made the World

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Speaker 1: Cup and so forth.

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Speaker 2: Did you see the cape Verd game, the cape Verde game, right,

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Speaker 2: So that was insane? So okay. So part of the

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Speaker 2: concern with FIFA expanding this to like fifty teams is that, well,

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Speaker 2: you don't get the same I guess intensity that you

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Speaker 2: would in a World Cup with a smaller group, and

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Speaker 2: you get all these meaningless games like Cursow versus Germany.

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Speaker 2: But then Cape Verd played Spain and it wasn't a

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Speaker 2: dead rubber game. It ended up like being kind of

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Speaker 2: an upset because Spain are supposed to be favorites for

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Speaker 2: the entire YEA yeah, And so now I am proud

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Speaker 2: to say I'm a diehard cape Verd fan and I

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Speaker 2: really want this whole like dead rubber thing to just

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Speaker 2: blow up in FIFA's face.

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Speaker 1: You know, one thing I'm aware of with football in

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Speaker 1: general is that we could have an entire podcast on

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Speaker 1: the money side of it, and like, you know, people say, oh,

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Speaker 1: you should really do an episode on how like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: whatever team and whatever league in Europe is now permanently

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Speaker 1: going to be relegated because they've signed these financial and

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Speaker 1: it's like, you know what, that sounds like really finance

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Speaker 1: fascinating to me. But unless we were like really deep

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Speaker 1: in it, that almost sounds like too niche, you know.

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Speaker 2: And so you know, we had a really good newsletter

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Speaker 2: all about this last year. Week did all about it

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Speaker 2: financial engineering in specifically European football. But yeah, there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of let's say money influence slash money games being

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Speaker 2: played in football at the moment.

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Speaker 1: There's so many angles that we could attack it from.

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Speaker 1: I just earlier in the year I went to my

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Speaker 1: first Champions League match. I saw Atletico Madrid versus Arsenal

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Speaker 1: in the Metropolitano Stadium in Madrid. Amazing experience. Had the

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Speaker 1: vibe to me of like an American like Big twelve

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Speaker 1: college football match, which I think is an amazing energy,

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Speaker 1: et cetera.

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Speaker 2: Again, we are going to offend so many times.

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Speaker 1: I say, there's a compliment. Anyway, let's give the money.

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Speaker 1: I'll say one more thing about football, which is that

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Speaker 1: I've never like really gotten hooked on it, but I've

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Speaker 1: always thought the jerseys are the coolest of any sport particular.

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Speaker 1: I liked when more of the jerseys had physical colors

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Speaker 1: on them. I think that's gone out of style a

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Speaker 1: little bit, but I used to love like those old

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Speaker 1: jerseys that had like the flapped collars on them, and

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Speaker 1: I just think they look cool as hell.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree, And.

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Speaker 1: Somehow on a football jersey, it doesn't offend me when

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Speaker 1: I see ads the way it does. Like if I

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Speaker 1: see an AD on American baseball jersey, I was like,

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Speaker 1: it's sort of like basing. It looks to me, it

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Speaker 1: looks fine.

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Speaker 2: Why do you just expect it?

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe it's like a hosubtle chauvinism or

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Speaker 1: something like that, or it's like, oh, it looks fine

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Speaker 1: to see these corporate logos. Now when I look at

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Speaker 1: an NBA jersey with a logos, they're sort of debasing

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Speaker 1: this sport. I don't know, but you just.

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Speaker 2: Come to expect money to debase football. That makes sense.

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Speaker 1: We're going to be talking about whether money has an

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Speaker 1: ejective vitality or expanded the game or debased it or whatever.

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Speaker 1: Or least how the massive amounts of money have changed

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Speaker 1: the game. We're very excited to bring on the perfect guest.

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Speaker 1: We're going to be speaking with freelance football journalist Joey

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Speaker 1: Drso and he has a new book out called More

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Speaker 1: Than a Shirt, How Football Shirts Explain Global Politics, money

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Speaker 1: and Power. So, uh, Joey, thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: coming on Oddlaws.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having a big fan of the pot.

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Speaker 1: I don't even know where to begin. I guess I'll say, like,

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Speaker 1: do you have any hunch as to why it is

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Speaker 1: that someone like myself is okay with seeing ads on

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Speaker 1: a football kit versus other sports? Like do you have

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Speaker 1: any sort of intuition about why maybe we come to

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Speaker 1: expect that or that.

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Speaker 3: Sort of cool or is it is one sort of

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Speaker 3: deep in your soul than your personal identity and you

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Speaker 3: just feel it in a way.

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Speaker 1: That yeah, maybe that's just it. Maybe like I don't

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Speaker 1: have like the sort of you know, I grew up

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Speaker 1: like a Detroit Tigers thing, for example, and if I

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Speaker 1: saw like a big ad for like open ai or

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Speaker 1: something out there, I wouldn't be thead into it or

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Speaker 1: crypto dot com or whatever which seems to advertise everywhere.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's just there, maybe it's just like what's in

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Speaker 1: my soul or not.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, it's an interesting question which sporting culture is

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Speaker 3: more commercial, yeah, corporate capitalist, and which isn't because obviously

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Speaker 3: the US in most respects is far more capitalistic than

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Speaker 3: in Europe. But there's actually funny some ways to invert that.

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Speaker 3: One is sponsorship, and one is like this draft system,

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Speaker 3: which to us feels like communism for US. You know,

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Speaker 3: it's just the rich teams buy all the best players

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Speaker 3: and that's how it happens when the rich get richer.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so Joey, I can't help but notice that we're

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Speaker 2: doing a football podcast, but you are, in fact wearing

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Speaker 2: a baseball shirt, which maybe says something about the difficulties.

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Speaker 1: It's a Coney Island Cyclone shut, which I love. Anyone

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Speaker 1: who comes and visits the New York has to go

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Speaker 1: to a Cyclones game.

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Speaker 2: But soccer, it has historically had some difficulty with breaking

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Speaker 2: through into the US. Right, So it's getting bigger. Now

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Speaker 2: we have the MLS, we have all of that. We

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Speaker 2: now have a World Cup that's taking place in the US,

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Speaker 2: but we had one previously and that was kind of

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Speaker 2: an uphill battle to break into that particular market.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, so soccer in the US has quite a

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Speaker 3: long history, but it was basically wiped out by the

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Speaker 3: Wall Street crash. So it was big in big industrial

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Speaker 3: cities before that, big in kind of Philadelphia, New Jersey,

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Speaker 3: and then it was wiped out because it was deeply

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Speaker 3: linked to these industries that were hit so badly in

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Speaker 3: nineteen twenty nine, and then it was kind of in

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Speaker 3: the wilderness for half a century. America's own sports became

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Speaker 3: really big. But yeah, it was sort of getting bigger

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Speaker 3: and bigger. You know. Pelle came to play for the

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Speaker 3: New York Cosmos in the seventies, Beckenbauer as well. It

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Speaker 3: was like the place to be.

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Speaker 2: My husband used to work for the Cosmon.

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Speaker 3: Really yeah, he was a youth court really yeah. USA

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Speaker 3: ninety four. FIFA had long wanted to bring the World

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Speaker 3: Cup to the US, even though no one really cared

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Speaker 3: in the US about the sport. But because of money,

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Speaker 3: because of business, because the world's biggest companies, the world's

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Speaker 3: richest people, the world's biggest pool of wealthy consumers are

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Speaker 3: in the US, and you know, the sort of footballing

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Speaker 3: snobs of Europe of which I'm probably sometimes one of

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Speaker 3: them probably turn their nose up at going into the US.

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Speaker 3: Italian ninety is very romanticized in England, as you know,

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Speaker 3: Pavarotti and the beautiful sites of Rome and these gast Americans.

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Speaker 3: What are they doing with our beautiful World Cup? But

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Speaker 3: it was kind of a success in many metrics. The

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Speaker 3: grounds were full, lots of I think the Hispanic population

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Speaker 3: would have helped a lot there, but a lot of

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Speaker 3: just curious Americans. Like women's football was huge in the

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Speaker 3: US before it was big in Europe, so a lot

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Speaker 3: of there was a lot of interest because of that.

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Speaker 3: I think it was the Olympics before that that was big.

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Speaker 3: Swen ninety four, loads of massive American corporations made their

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Speaker 3: debut at the World Cup. They paid up to twenty

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Speaker 3: million dollars to get involved, which might not seem a

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Speaker 3: lot in the scale of football now, but certainly was

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Speaker 3: back then. You had McDonald's, it was the first ever

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Speaker 3: global sponsorship. You had General Motors for the first time, MasterCard,

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Speaker 3: who had a sort of pilot in nineteen ninety eight,

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Speaker 3: converted that to a long term commitment. It was a

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Speaker 3: big commercial success. Like Harvard Business School wrote case studies

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Speaker 3: about it, despite the fact most Americans weren't interested. The

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Speaker 3: opening game was interrupted by the O. J. Simpson car chase.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, massive deal in World Cup history for commercial

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Speaker 3: rather than necessarily football reasons.

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Speaker 1: First of all, I had not realized that actually there

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Speaker 1: was a long football tradition in the United States prior

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Speaker 1: to the crash. We could have probably done an entire

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Speaker 1: episode just on that. But I do also remember, like

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Speaker 1: as a kid in like the eighties, like hearing about

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Speaker 1: this girl named Pela. You know, Trump is a bigger Pela.

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Speaker 3: Well that's pretty good.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I thank you, thank you. But what were the cosmos? Now?

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Speaker 1: I was like, what league was there?

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Speaker 3: Even so that was I believe it was the NASL,

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Speaker 3: the North American Soccer League, but it was kind of

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Speaker 3: an exobit. It was kind of the Plea Show and

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Speaker 3: you know the cosmos that go around to these different teams.

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Speaker 3: And when Pelle left, it all sort of fell apart

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Speaker 3: pretty quickly. It was losing lots of money. And the

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Speaker 3: US is just such a deep, rich sporting market. You know,

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Speaker 3: there were like four the Big four, which would be

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Speaker 3: American football, baseball, basketball, and ice hockey. It's hard to

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Speaker 3: penetrate that, and it's very unusual, you know Australia. I

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Speaker 3: was there recently. It's maybe the closest parallel in Europe,

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Speaker 3: in every European country. You know. I like cricket. You

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Speaker 3: guys probably think that's incredibly obscure and sort of fusty British.

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Speaker 3: But like, if cricket is tiny compared to football, as

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Speaker 3: is rugby and all these other sports we have, football

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Speaker 3: is completely dominant in the vast majority of the world.

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Speaker 3: The US is a wild exception.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about that ninety four World Cup. So, like,

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Speaker 1: what was the lead up to that ninety four World

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Speaker 1: Cup in terms of making the case that it should

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Speaker 1: be in the US? Like how long was that? I

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Speaker 1: remember that World Cup, but like how long was that

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Speaker 1: in the works and the fights and what had they

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Speaker 1: happened for the World Cup to finally go in nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety four to the US.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so it was a long time. It was like

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Speaker 3: the mid eighties had lots of build up time. I mean,

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Speaker 3: the US, as we're saying now, it doesn't need to

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Speaker 3: build loads of stadiums, right, that's one huge advantage he has,

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Speaker 3: unlike you know, South Africa and twenty ten, built all

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Speaker 3: these white elephant stadiums, and in many cases that was

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Speaker 3: a wonderful World Cup and of apartheid Mandela, but financially

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Speaker 3: a bit of a basketcase. So the US was ready

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Speaker 3: even if it wasn't a big football in country. But

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Speaker 3: what it had to do was set up its own

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Speaker 3: league because it did not have a professional soccer league

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Speaker 3: at that point, So we set up them less because

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Speaker 3: of that so real kind of footballing desert at the

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Speaker 3: time that it was preparing to host the World Cup

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Speaker 3: in ninety four.

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Speaker 2: So just to clarify when it comes to I guess

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Speaker 2: US commercial advertisers, what exactly were they trying to achieve here,

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Speaker 2: Because if soccer isn't that big in the US at

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Speaker 2: that time in nineteen ninety four, I assume they're not

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Speaker 2: necessarily trying to target the American market. Like, maybe it's

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Speaker 2: great that you're trying to popularize the game more in

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Speaker 2: the country, but if you're an advertiser, I imagine sponsoring the

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Speaker 2: World Cup in ninety four is more about tapping into

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Speaker 2: that global audience that you're describing.

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Speaker 3: Yes, if you Coca Cola and you want to sell

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Speaker 3: it in Africa and Asia is the best billboard you

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Speaker 3: could possibly imagine. It's being built and you know, whole

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Speaker 3: village is in parts of the world where people don't

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Speaker 3: necessarily have electricity at home, we'll be watching it. It's

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Speaker 3: the biggest advertising event in the world by far. But

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Speaker 3: before ninety four it just wasn't really commercialized that ruthlessly.

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Speaker 3: You know, tournaments lost money. There's a great story from

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Speaker 3: I think it's in the seventy four World Cup in Mexico.

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Speaker 3: This tailor, like a guy who sews clothes somewhere in London,

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Speaker 3: just bought half of the oizing boats on the stadium

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Speaker 3: in Mexico City just because like no one else had

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Speaker 3: have thought of it, and he offered them like a

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Speaker 3: nominal amount of money and they were like yeah sure.

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Speaker 3: And like when I do my research into the sort

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Speaker 3: of history of football shirts and sponsorship, the early days

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Speaker 3: are often just kind of like that. A team will

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Speaker 3: win some massive trophy with the local beer company on it,

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Speaker 3: and then three years later there'll be no logo because

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Speaker 3: it's literally just like some guy. There's no process, there's

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Speaker 3: no marketing department, there's no anything. So I suppose Football

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Speaker 3: FIFA just Lee was leaving millions, billions of pounds on

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Speaker 3: the table. Of course, there is a flip side that

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Speaker 3: if you ruthlessly commercialize it to within an inch of

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Speaker 3: its life, you're potentially risking harming the product itself. But

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Speaker 3: that's maybe a separate podcast.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I suppose there's a separate party.

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Speaker 2: Do you want to get into that?

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Speaker 1: Like, yeah, we could, Yeah, we should get into that

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Speaker 1: in the current state a little bit more, but talk

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Speaker 1: more about some of these deals and how big they

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Speaker 1: were and how unusual they were. So you go from

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Speaker 1: like okay, a tailor in one World Cup to then

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Speaker 1: a few World Cups later into Coca Cola and the

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Speaker 1: biggest Yeah, and there were.

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Speaker 3: Like twenty million dollar deals and this kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So talk about like who are some of the

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Speaker 1: big spants theres in like you know what there we like,

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Speaker 1: what were some of these deals?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and what were some of these deals that they

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Speaker 1: signed in nineteen ninety four.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So this guy on Rothenberg who was the kind

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Speaker 3: of see the guy running the bit and he was

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Speaker 3: very who came from an NBA background and he was

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Speaker 3: very commercially minded and he turned it into this big

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Speaker 3: commercial event, I think very effectively but yeah, the sponsors are,

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Speaker 3: you know, like the ones we see now, like Coca Cola,

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Speaker 3: like Visa, these huge multinational corporations that the World Cups

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Speaker 3: hadn't really seen in the same extent before, and American companies,

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Speaker 3: which is what we see now.

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Speaker 2: So I want to go back to something you said

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Speaker 2: about the nineteen ninety World Cup, and you mentioned that

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Speaker 2: it was lionized or I guess looms large in a

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Speaker 2: lot of people's football memories, especially in Europe. What actually

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Speaker 2: makes a World Cup successful? Like, what is that essence

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Speaker 2: that you can point to that means you can say

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Speaker 2: something like, oh, people love the nineteen ninety World Cup

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Speaker 2: versus I don't know. I don't want to name of

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Speaker 2: any specific World Cups as absolute failures, but you could

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Speaker 2: pluck a few examples. I suppose.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think the two big things are a your

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Speaker 3: team winning or doing really well, and being in your twenties.

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Speaker 3: Like most things in life, you look back on it,

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Speaker 3: and I suppose lots of people, you know, look back

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Speaker 3: on nineteen ninety at the who are in positions a

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Speaker 3: power at the moment, and that's wonderful for me. Twenty

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Speaker 3: eighteen in England were in Russia and England did surprisingly

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Speaker 3: well after being dreadful for twenty years and the sunshine

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Speaker 3: every day for three months and it was just a

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Speaker 3: party in England, which was fun. So I think a

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Speaker 3: lot of it is that like social cultural stuff, but

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Speaker 3: you know, on the broader sense, exciting games, close games,

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Speaker 3: but like moments and people you know you look back to,

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Speaker 3: like Diego Maradona. Do you know about the hand of God?

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Speaker 1: In nineteen there was eighty six? In nineteen ninety there

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Speaker 1: was the first World Cup I paid attention to and

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Speaker 1: I knew about, and then he had a pretty disappointing

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety World Cup. It was Argentina was pretty mediocre

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Speaker 1: that year, right, But I was like pretty obsessed with

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Speaker 1: a Madadonna that year and I was sort of, as

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Speaker 1: a young kid, disappointed that he didn't wasn't it couldn't

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Speaker 1: bring back the magic?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think particularly as the game extends. So

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Speaker 3: I'm from, you know, an English background where I went.

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Speaker 3: I've been going to see my club aston Villa since

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Speaker 3: I was like four years old, and it's so like

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Speaker 3: deeply in my blood that you know, like, but that's

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Speaker 3: a tiny mind. I think that's a minority of the

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Speaker 3: people whoatch the World Cup, most people are from you know,

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Speaker 3: parts of the world where they might tune in once

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Speaker 3: every four years, and it's all about, you know, those

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Speaker 3: characters and memories and people, and you know, I'm thinking

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Speaker 3: about nineteen ninety the famous one in England would be

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Speaker 3: Gazas tears. I don't know if that means anything to you,

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Speaker 3: but Paul Gascoigne, the sort of maverick Englishman who was

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Speaker 3: like pretty sort of chaotic personal life and he was

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Speaker 3: brilliant but sort of very flawed and he got a

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Speaker 3: yellow card in the semi final against Germany that mean

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Speaker 3: who couldn't play in the final and he cried, and

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Speaker 3: it's like Gaza's tears. Is this sort of it's like

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Speaker 3: a part of Britain's national story, like the sort of

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Speaker 3: romantic view of football in that way. And you know,

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Speaker 3: England didn't get to the fund semifinal. England lost that

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Speaker 3: semi final to Germany on penalties, which then happened again

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Speaker 3: six years later. And this idea of like losing to

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Speaker 3: Germany every time is like a very deep in the

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Speaker 3: kind of national myth and every country has its own,

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Speaker 3: Like I've just been in Argentina, and like eighty six

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Speaker 3: with Maradonna and you know, twenty twenty two with Messi.

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Speaker 3: The interesting one is nineteen seventy eight when Argentina won

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Speaker 3: the World Cup and a military dictatorship as people were

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Speaker 3: being tortured like a mile down the road, and that's

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Speaker 3: kind of slightly airbrushed out of the story, but like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: these people, these characters, I think is what really makes

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Speaker 3: World Cups above anything else.

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Speaker 1: Someone told me this should probably fake, but it's like

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Speaker 1: one of those things that people say, apparently some extraordinary

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Speaker 1: number of people in England have nineteen sixty six because

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Speaker 1: there are a pin current for their ac and they're like,

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Speaker 1: you can just guess the once pin because in the

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Speaker 1: last time England won the World Cup.

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Speaker 3: Oh totally. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: This was something that always used to happen. If for

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Speaker 2: the ten years that I was in the UK, every

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Speaker 2: time there was a World Cup, people would get really

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Speaker 2: excited about bringing back the trophy and you would get

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Speaker 2: all the analysts at the banks with the l side

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Speaker 2: research and if they really wanted to get a bunch

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Speaker 2: of clients happy, they would say that Englian was going

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Speaker 2: to win the World A.

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Speaker 1: Crystical model Yeah, football is coming home. Yeah, I know

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Speaker 1: a few yeah feel fact Yeah.

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00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:15,479
Speaker 3: Which is a kind of slightly misunderstood slogan, I think

402
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Speaker 3: because it's seen as this arrogance or this like we

403
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Speaker 3: invented it and with this imperial people who are going

404
00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:22,919
Speaker 3: to colonize you and win everything, which it's actually this

405
00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,600
Speaker 3: sort of extremely sort of self deprecating to the point

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Speaker 3: of like melancholic thing about how we never win anything

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Speaker 3: and it's all really miserable, which is sort of a

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Speaker 3: national character, I suppose.

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Speaker 2: So I noticed some extent we're talking about vibes, and

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Speaker 2: it's hard to pinpoint those exactly, But I'm really interested

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Speaker 2: in the contrast between the nineteen ninety World Cup and

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety four. So you go from a very European,

413
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Speaker 2: not that commercialized event to something that is much more

414
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Speaker 2: American and there's a lot more focus on actually generating money.

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Speaker 2: So how did those two events stack up against each other?

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Speaker 2: This is what I'm trying to get at.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, and then you hit this sort of well,

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's the beginning. USA is the beginning of

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00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,200
Speaker 3: a process. It's the beginning of this exponential curve where

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Speaker 3: like people are throwing around the figure twelve billion for

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00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:09,000
Speaker 3: this World Cup, when three World Cups ago it was

422
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Speaker 3: half that. It's many billions more than guitar. So the

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Speaker 3: USA is not massive, but it's the beginning of the

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Speaker 3: exponential curve in which the figure that well, you know,

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Speaker 3: the nineteen ninety World Cup in Italy like lost money.

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Speaker 3: The USA ninety four is this beginning of I think

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Speaker 3: maybe people didn't realize at the time what a commercial

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Speaker 3: success it could be and how much money was potentially

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Speaker 3: on the table from World Cups themselves, and that's when

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Speaker 3: you lead it to feed for itself, becoming this much

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Speaker 3: more ruthlessly commercial body.

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Speaker 1: Maybe the right way to think about the compare and

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Speaker 1: contrast is not nineteen ninety verse nineteen ninety four, but

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety in Italy versus nineteen ninety eight in France,

435
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Speaker 1: both hosted by European stalwart soccer nations. How did those

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Speaker 1: two differ with nineteen ninety four having split them in

437
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Speaker 1: the middle, And how much more commercialized and different was

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight versus nineteen ninety.

439
00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:58,400
Speaker 3: Or much more commercial And you have these big sponsors

440
00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:01,080
Speaker 3: much more prominent in the stadium, already much more commercial,

441
00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:02,840
Speaker 3: I mean The interesting thing about nineteen ninety eight is

442
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,639
Speaker 3: that France now feels like a stolewart football nation. It

443
00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:08,000
Speaker 3: kind of wasn't before nineteen ninety eight, and then in

444
00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:11,560
Speaker 3: France because it's a story of economic history and industrialization

445
00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:14,639
Speaker 3: that France industrialized later than England, and it was a

446
00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,280
Speaker 3: country where most of its people lived in villages rather

447
00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:19,840
Speaker 3: than towns and cities, and football is everywhere and always

448
00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,280
Speaker 3: a game of the city. It was spread by trams

449
00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:25,080
Speaker 3: and trains inside cities. It was initially a child of

450
00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:27,439
Speaker 3: the weekend. The first week workers to get weekend in

451
00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:30,200
Speaker 3: industrial England were the people who played organized football first

452
00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:33,840
Speaker 3: the satsate three pm slot. France industrialized later, so it

453
00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:35,960
Speaker 3: did not have that same culture, and there are pockets

454
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:37,840
Speaker 3: of it, you know, sin Etien, an industrial town in

455
00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:39,960
Speaker 3: the south of France, But really France was not a

456
00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:43,080
Speaker 3: big football country deep into the even nineteen ninety eight,

457
00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:45,199
Speaker 3: and then that changed overnight. But still even now, you know,

458
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:47,280
Speaker 3: you go to a small French city and it's just

459
00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:49,200
Speaker 3: not a thing that people talk about in a way

460
00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:51,639
Speaker 3: that it is in England and in Spain and Italy.

461
00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,440
Speaker 2: Can I ask a very basic question, so you've said

462
00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:57,000
Speaker 2: the word exponential a number of times. In terms of

463
00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:01,040
Speaker 2: the commercialization of the World Cup. FIFA is a not

464
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:03,840
Speaker 2: for profit, right, Like technically it's not.

465
00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:07,200
Speaker 1: For debating this over the like what is FIFA.

466
00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:10,280
Speaker 2: It's supposed to reinvest its money like back into the sport.

467
00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:14,960
Speaker 2: So what actually you know, basic question here, but what's

468
00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:19,400
Speaker 2: driving the urge to generate money from advertising revenue?

469
00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:23,200
Speaker 3: So FIFA is a is a vehicle for funneling money

470
00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:27,359
Speaker 3: from advertisers and TV to member associations. There are two

471
00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,520
Speaker 3: hundred and something member associations that make up FIFA. They

472
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:33,600
Speaker 3: vote for the president, Jenny and Fantino. The World Cup

473
00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:35,720
Speaker 3: is this huge bonanza of cash, both in terms of

474
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:38,960
Speaker 3: tikto ticketing, as this multi billion dollar thing is completely new.

475
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:40,959
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm sure you've heard a lot about ticket

476
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:44,160
Speaker 3: prices and lots of European dropping outrage about that. Americans

477
00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:46,680
Speaker 3: say that's just you know, capitalism, baby or whatever. But

478
00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:48,920
Speaker 3: like it's like two three billion dollars now, which is

479
00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:52,399
Speaker 3: completely new, and the advertising as well. FIFA is the

480
00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:54,920
Speaker 3: kind of middleman and then that money goes to member

481
00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:59,960
Speaker 3: associations and it's one member, one vote. So if you're England, Brazil, Germany.

482
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,760
Speaker 3: You have the same vote as Cape Bird Suriname, and

483
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,959
Speaker 3: it means that these countries have incredibly glitzy facilities and

484
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:08,600
Speaker 3: it means that they tend to re elect the president.

485
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,920
Speaker 1: Okay, so that makes sense. So in terms of corporate structure,

486
00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:14,240
Speaker 1: is it the Premier League? Is that a for profit

487
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,720
Speaker 1: organization or is there yet another sort of non profit

488
00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:22,680
Speaker 1: layer that sits above a bunch of privately owned clubs

489
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:23,560
Speaker 1: which are for profit.

490
00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:26,160
Speaker 3: That's correct. Yeah, it's a member association and it votes

491
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:26,879
Speaker 3: for its members.

492
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,000
Speaker 1: What about the MLS? Is that the similar structure where

493
00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:33,680
Speaker 1: the MLS is a sort of nominally.

494
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:34,399
Speaker 3: Non a franchise system.

495
00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:35,639
Speaker 1: Oh, it's a franchise system.

496
00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:38,880
Speaker 3: So the US sports model, which is where a franchise

497
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,000
Speaker 3: system where there's no promotion and relegation, which of course

498
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,159
Speaker 3: is deeply part of European sport. It means that the

499
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,160
Speaker 3: valuations of clubs are much lower because you can get

500
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,440
Speaker 3: relegated and Totmham Hotspur, who are a very big club

501
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:53,360
Speaker 3: in England, extremely close came close to getting relegated, which

502
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:54,840
Speaker 3: means you fall out of the Premier League and into

503
00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:55,400
Speaker 3: the ellegue below.

504
00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,520
Speaker 2: My husband is a Spurs fan, so this has been

505
00:21:58,560 --> 00:21:59,800
Speaker 2: a painful bring.

506
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:02,240
Speaker 3: Up any trauma. I've read stuff around the time saying

507
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,159
Speaker 3: that even that Spurs came close to relegation, it's going

508
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,879
Speaker 3: to harm the valuation of Manchester United and Chelsea and

509
00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,440
Speaker 3: these other teams because it feels possible in a way

510
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:13,720
Speaker 3: it didn't a year ago. Too big to fail.

511
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,440
Speaker 1: I haven't thought about that that basically like that, it

512
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,679
Speaker 1: puts it implicitly that there's a left tail outcome for

513
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,040
Speaker 1: a club, any club ownership that is just not possible.

514
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,359
Speaker 1: And then like Major League Baseball, are obviously Major League

515
00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,520
Speaker 1: Soccer where you just prominently have that spot at the top.

516
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:30,359
Speaker 1: That's super interesting.

517
00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's there's real stakes.

518
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 3: And relegation is obviously very unlikely. But Champions League FOOTBA

519
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,199
Speaker 3: also the top four or five teams in England go

520
00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:40,160
Speaker 3: on to play in the Champions League, the European wide competition,

521
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,320
Speaker 3: which is hugely lucrative. And my team aston Villa who

522
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:45,199
Speaker 3: are punching way above their way at the moment and

523
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,679
Speaker 3: have qualified this year, but that means there's not a

524
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,240
Speaker 3: spot for you know, Chelsea haven't qualified this year, Manchester

525
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:53,320
Speaker 3: United have gone several years without qualifying. They have this year.

526
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:55,440
Speaker 3: But that's a like left tail risk, which is really

527
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,720
Speaker 3: quite likely and means that you're not going to get

528
00:22:57,720 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 3: that huge part of money next year, and the odds

529
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:00,760
Speaker 3: are pretty The.

530
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:06,399
Speaker 1: Flip side is that teams and lower rated leagues. We

531
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,720
Speaker 1: did that episode years and years ago with that bitcoiner

532
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:13,240
Speaker 1: who bought like a team like Bedford England or something

533
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,200
Speaker 1: like that, the fifth team down with like his pitcoin profits,

534
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,399
Speaker 1: and he had dreams of like bringing them up, you know,

535
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:22,359
Speaker 1: like you could have like sort of like entrepreneurial football entrepreneurs.

536
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 1: Like yeah, so like it does seem like, you know,

537
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 1: I think it would be more exciting. I actually have

538
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,399
Speaker 1: an old friend or kind of a friend who owns

539
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:34,159
Speaker 1: a US soccer club in a smaller league, and he

540
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 1: wants the US to introduce like relegation and promotion on

541
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:40,760
Speaker 1: this idea that maybe that club could one day be

542
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,200
Speaker 1: a bigger, more valuable thing. But I have no idea

543
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 1: if that could ever happen.

544
00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 3: Well, I guess the members would have to vote for it,

545
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 3: the same you know in any other league. And it's

546
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:49,679
Speaker 3: a bit kind of Turkey's Vogue for Christmas.

547
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,200
Speaker 2: Okay, since we're on the topic of the Premier League,

548
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,160
Speaker 2: and also right and left tail outcome. So you right

549
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 2: across your coverage a lot about the influence of geopology

550
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 2: on football, right and I think at this point everyone

551
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 2: is familiar with the term sportswashing, so the idea that

552
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:10,560
Speaker 2: certain governments, certain people, certain companies will sponsor a football

553
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 2: team to make themselves look good and maybe distract from

554
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,199
Speaker 2: other scandals. One thing that's interesting to me now is

555
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,199
Speaker 2: it kind of feels like sportswashing can also go in

556
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 2: the other direction, where you can end up having geopolitical vulnerabilities.

557
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:29,440
Speaker 2: So if I think about Chelsea, you know, Chelsea basically

558
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 2: lost their sugar daddy for lack of a better word,

559
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:34,760
Speaker 2: in the form of Abramovich. And I think at some

560
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 2: point there was talk about maybe sanctions in the UK

561
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:43,120
Speaker 2: against the Emirates and obviously Manchester United owned by Americans,

562
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 2: and I imagine for some British people, Americans aren't that popular.

563
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:51,199
Speaker 2: Right now, does the influence of sportswashing go in the

564
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 2: other way?

565
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 3: Well, I mean Chelsea, yes, it was very embarrassing for them.

566
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,919
Speaker 3: Abromvirich was sanctioned by the American government, but fundamentally Chelsea

567
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,080
Speaker 3: had won one league title before he came out in

568
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,640
Speaker 3: the early two thousands. They won five in the eighteen

569
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 3: nineteen years after that, so I don't think they'll be

570
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:06,879
Speaker 3: you know, would would they have taken that? As a

571
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 3: Chelsea fan at the start, I basically think, and this

572
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 3: is maybe putting myself out of a job. No one

573
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,440
Speaker 3: cares that much. Like, no one, like people don't become

574
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 3: a sports team to grapple with geopolitics. And it's kind

575
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 3: of pretty terrible sometimes, I think, because like Newcastle United

576
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,200
Speaker 3: is probably the most egregious example because they're literally owned

577
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 3: by the public Investment Fund of Saudi Arabia, and yeah,

578
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 3: like that's been I think used as a propaganda vehicle

579
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 3: for an autocratic state, and yeah, it's pretty bad, But

580
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 3: I don't think fans care. And Newcastle United is like

581
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 3: a very working class club with a really proud history

582
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:38,199
Speaker 3: in this sort of quite you know town that's had

583
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 3: a rough few decades and a very proud and very

584
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,919
Speaker 3: amazing institution. And it's a very clever move for the

585
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 3: Saudi Investment Fund to buy it because it has so

586
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,120
Speaker 3: much sort of authenticity and credibility.

587
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,359
Speaker 1: Was there some team that has gets prom under logo.

588
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 3: That well teed me up, because that's the first whole

589
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:55,880
Speaker 3: first chapter of my book.

590
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 1: Which team was there?

591
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,919
Speaker 3: That's Shoulker in Gelson Kirshen and where I travel and

592
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 3: speak to lots of people. So yeah, the great thing

593
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,159
Speaker 3: there was they had gas prom on their shirts, and

594
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 3: when I went there two years after the invasion of Ukraine,

595
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,200
Speaker 3: lots of people were wearing blue stickers over the gas

596
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 3: prom logo because they were shamed by it. But yeah,

597
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 3: Russian gas and German politics were deeply entwined for decades

598
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:21,919
Speaker 3: and best exhibited in the shirt of Sholka, and politicians

599
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 3: and executives would wine and dine there. Germany was buying

600
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:27,680
Speaker 3: cheap gas from Russia, so both sides were getting something

601
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 3: out of it. Because Germany doesn't have much natural resources,

602
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 3: Russia needed the cash. It all came crashing down in

603
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 3: twenty twenty two. The one team that does still have

604
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 3: gas prom on their shirts is Red Star Belgrade in Serbia,

605
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 3: who also play in European competitions. But of course Serbia

606
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 3: is much more pally with Russia than the rest of Europe,

607
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 3: so they don't see a problem there.

608
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,639
Speaker 1: So who did did did their team? Did they get

609
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:49,360
Speaker 1: a new sponsor?

610
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:51,679
Speaker 3: Sholka well, they lost loads of money overnight. It was

611
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 3: like ten million euros and they'd been kind of declining

612
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 3: for a while, but it was almost the straw that

613
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 3: broke the camel's back and they went down to the

614
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,160
Speaker 3: second division in Germany, which was They're a huge club,

615
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 3: so they took a huge financial hit from losing that sponsorship.

616
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 2: So, speaking of Jersey history, I guess one of the

617
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 2: things that's come up in the current World Cup is

618
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 2: Haiti's jersey. So I think they had to redesign it

619
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 2: because FIFA said it was too political. You're not allowed

620
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,680
Speaker 2: to have political slogans or like political meanings. And Haiti

621
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:40,159
Speaker 2: apparently have a little graphic of men during the Haitian

622
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 2: Revolution and one of them was like a very famous

623
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 2: war hero, but not even explicitly like maybe a very

624
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 2: famous war hero. And I find this really interesting because

625
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 2: obviously there's a lot of judgment involved when you say

626
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 2: whether a jersey is political or not. And no one

627
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,159
Speaker 2: is going after like the Netherlands for wearing orange and

628
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 2: promoting Protestantism or right, So like, how do they make

629
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,679
Speaker 2: those calls and does it feel like they're picking on

630
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 2: maybe smaller countries with fewer resources to fight against some

631
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 2: of these decisions.

632
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, all these things are just kind of arbitrary

633
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 3: judgment calls, you know where. And there's a thing that

634
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 3: football associations are constantly grappling with because it's people that

635
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,920
Speaker 3: have ripped their shirts off to have something to do

636
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,199
Speaker 3: with Israel, Palestine or and I can see why. But

637
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 3: then when the Russia Ukraine stuff happened in England, that

638
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,719
Speaker 3: kind of whole football community united around, we support Ukraine

639
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 3: and flagged and whatever else. So these things are often

640
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 3: conceeeme hypocritical, conceeem contradictory. Those decisions. It's just some person somewhere,

641
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 3: you know, How do you objectively make a call like that?

642
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 3: But yeah, you're right to flag the Netherlands. And it's

643
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 3: a really interesting one. I've actually on Instagram be doing

644
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 3: a series that's like white Country plays in each color

645
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 3: and Heiti is that they play in red and blue

646
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 3: because it was the French tree color and when they

647
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 3: overthrew the French, you know, the slave hold of incredible

648
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 3: slave revolution in Heiti, and they rip the Whites out

649
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 3: of the flag just to be left with blue and

650
00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 3: red the Netherlands and the orange. The story is William

651
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 3: of Orange, who's kind of the founding father of the Netherlands.

652
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 3: But in I don't know if you know, the Association

653
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 3: of Orange in Northern Ireland and Scotland of the Protestantism

654
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 3: and sectarianism and the Club Rangers, which represents the Protestant

655
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 3: Unionist half of Glasgow while Celtic is the Irish Republican half.

656
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,719
Speaker 3: They play in Orange and it's quite inflammatory because it's associated

657
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 3: with these sort of sectarian things. So, yeah, the same shirt,

658
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 3: the same kind of but no one would say that

659
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 3: about a Netherlands national shirt, even though the original origin

660
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,479
Speaker 3: of the story is similar. It's just these things have

661
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 3: different meanings in different contexts.

662
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 1: I suppose tell us about the Jersey and Columbia that

663
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 1: had a murdered drug dealer onn't it.

664
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that was Envigado FC and the outskirts of

665
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 3: Many In which the city which of course gave the

666
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 3: world Pablo Escobar. But these days are a lovely place to visit.

667
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 3: I'd recommend it to anyone as a toy.

668
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 1: I've heard everyone says it to me.

669
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 3: It's great and just chilled and like great food, great vibes.

670
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 3: But it was the highest murder rate in the history

671
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,239
Speaker 3: of organized statistics was medy in in the eighties. Like

672
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 3: it was just people were being gunned down, left, right,

673
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 3: and center because Pablo Escobar and his cocaine cartel was

674
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 3: running the show. But football was kind of a tool

675
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:06,960
Speaker 3: of all this. And Escobar owned the one club in Mediine,

676
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 3: but other cartels owned clubs in Cali and other Colombian cities.

677
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 3: But the story I was interested in was a bit

678
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 3: later than that. Was so Escobar was killed in the

679
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 3: early nineties, and one of the offshoots from this cartel

680
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 3: was in Envigado, and this guy was killed, you know,

681
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 3: drug bosses are liable to get killed, and his son,

682
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 3: as a loving tribute to his father because they own

683
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 3: this football club, put his face on the back. So

684
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 3: on the back of the shirt was this like silhouette

685
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 3: of this man's face who was like a murdered drug

686
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 3: cartel leader. And I went to a game there in

687
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 3: the sort of humid stadium in the middle of the

688
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 3: day and I saw one. I was like, I've made

689
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 3: it this far. I really hope I get to see

690
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 3: the shirt, and right at the end I saw it

691
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 3: on the back of because it's quite old it's like

692
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 3: ten years old. But they were sanctioned by the American government.

693
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 3: They were on this thing, the Clinton List, which is

694
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 3: when foreign entities can't deal with US companies, so that

695
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 3: means like banks and everything else. It's really tricky to

696
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 3: be on that list if you're sanctioned. So they had

697
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 3: no sponsor for a while after that, so they had

698
00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 3: like the silhouette of the drug cartel leader, no sponsor.

699
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 3: They was sanctued by the Americans, and now they're in

700
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 3: by someone else and they just we should say, a

701
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 3: normal football team.

702
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 2: How much do those jerseys actually sell for now? Can

703
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 2: you get them off eBay or something? I imagine they're

704
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 2: worth a lot of money.

705
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 3: Oh well, I mean that one's just an incredibly of

706
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 3: skill on the high fan because I like the story.

707
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 3: But some of them, oh hundreds and hundreds huge industry

708
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 3: now and the nostalgia of it people on the kind

709
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 3: of nineties one from when they were kids, and yeah,

710
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 3: it's huge industry.

711
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 1: Yeah.

712
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 2: Obviously people like football jerseys. And my personal favorite for

713
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 2: this World Cup is the away kit for Cursow, which

714
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 2: is this really nice pastel yellow that I think I

715
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 2: could get away with. But if I go to try

716
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 2: to buy it. That's selling for like three hundred dollars now,

717
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 2: and it is nice. Yeah, and I think some of

718
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 2: the other some of the other popular jerseys, like one

719
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 2: of the japan ones that has like stripes on it,

720
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 2: that one's also very cute, like there is a choice. Yeah,

721
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 2: they're really They're really hard to find now and they're

722
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 2: selling for a lot of money. What does that actually

723
00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 2: mean for fans? You know, if I'm a Cursow fan

724
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 2: and I can't get my hands on in away jersey

725
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 2: unless I pay up like three hundred dollars, that seems

726
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 2: not ideal.

727
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, it's an interesting debate that you hear a

728
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 3: lot because I mean, you're supply and demand, right, you know,

729
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 3: they're selling the price that they can get away with it.

730
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 3: But in England you get like politicians stanning up and

731
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 3: talking about how much a disgrace it is that the

732
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 3: shirt is it's priced at that level. I mean, it's

733
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 3: something that means so much to people that and it's interesting.

734
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 3: This sort of the conflict between supply and demand and football,

735
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 3: I think is something that we're seeing a lot at

736
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 3: the moment with this World Cup, because you know, Arsenal

737
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 3: who just won the league, who are in London, who

738
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 3: are really popular. A ticket there is like sixty pounds,

739
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 3: maybe like eighty dollars, and they're just impossible. They're put

740
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 3: impossible to get. You need points, Like if you're just

741
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 3: a random person from the US who wanted to go

742
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 3: to an Arsenal game next season, you just can't. You

743
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 3: might be able to buy in the secondary market, which

744
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 3: is completely unregulated, you might get scammed. What they absolutely

745
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 3: do not do is raise it to the market clearing

746
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 3: price and charge one thousand dollars for it, Like that

747
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 3: just doesn't happen because it's so deeply ingrained in sort

748
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 3: of European supporting culture that that's like wrong, Whereas the

749
00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 3: US takes a different approach. And this is what we've

750
00:32:59,120 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 3: seen at this World Cup.

751
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 1: When I was in when we were in Madrid, I

752
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 1: did you know I got into that?

753
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 2: Did you get a jersey?

754
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 1: I didn't get a jersey, But you know when I

755
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 1: went on StubHub to buy my ticket, and I got

756
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 1: really stressed because as soon as I bought the ticket,

757
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 1: I got that pop up that said away fans will

758
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 1: not be allowed into the stadium, And I was like,

759
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 1: what if they think of an away fan. I doesn't

760
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 1: speak Spanish, Like, I got like, are they gonna give

761
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 1: me a light of techno test? So I went and

762
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 1: I bought a scarf of Utletti and I wore that

763
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 1: to the stadium so that it's like and then I

764
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 1: felt okay and I got in no problem. And everyone

765
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 1: was like, oh, be careful with their StubHub ticket. That

766
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 1: might be fake. But I was able to get in.

767
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 1: So my son is a big Messy fan and he

768
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 1: has a pink Messy jersey. But then today on the

769
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 1: walk to school, he asked me a messy what's a

770
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 1: goalie or not?

771
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 3: Oh my god?

772
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 1: So I was like, I was like, so he has

773
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 1: this conception that there is this person in the world

774
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 1: named Messi, and he has like who he really likes

775
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 1: but evidently quite clear, I mean he's young, he like,

776
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 1: does that actually know anything about it? He just knows

777
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,719
Speaker 1: that there is this existence. Likes the jersey, but like,

778
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: why is my undry into this pink jersey?

779
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 3: Well a very clever bit of marketing from Well. So.

780
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 3: David Beckham is a part owner of and that's an

781
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 3: interesting sort of financial story because when he joined La

782
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 3: Galaxy in two thousand and seven, someone put into his contract,

783
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:13,839
Speaker 3: whether it was him or he was maybe very well

784
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 3: advised that he would have the ownership rights when a

785
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 3: new franchise was introduced into the MLS and that became

786
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:21,839
Speaker 3: into Miami, and I believe he paid like twenty five

787
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,800
Speaker 3: million dollars, I think, which is basically just a huge bargain.

788
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 3: That's what now Mirth worth so many times more than that.

789
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 3: And Beckham, or again maybe someone advising Beckham, settled on

790
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 3: pink partly because apparently Miami is really pink or the

791
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,879
Speaker 3: buildings of pink, right, but also because basically no other

792
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 3: team plays in pink. So many teams playing red, Palermo

793
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 3: and Itsaly playing pink, but that's you know, quite niche,

794
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 3: but no one. So pink is just so iconic. You

795
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 3: just need to see, like the collar under a shirt

796
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 3: and you know instantly. It was a very clever bit

797
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 3: of marketing. But what's interesting you say about your son

798
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:55,319
Speaker 3: and Messi because football coming from Europe, the club is

799
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 3: the first point of reference and that was certainly my

800
00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 3: own upbringing. And if your favorite player lead as well,

801
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 3: you kind of than when they come back for another team.

802
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:03,840
Speaker 3: It's all about the club and that's what you identify

803
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 3: with first. Whereas as football is becoming this bigger global thing,

804
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,359
Speaker 3: it's that the individuals and Messi and Ronaldo who are

805
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:13,760
Speaker 3: both you know, way past their best and it's possible

806
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 3: at this tournament they could be not very good, who knows,

807
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 3: But the individual is now more important globally than the club,

808
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 3: which is new.

809
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,839
Speaker 2: Interesting just going back to commercialization of the World Cup.

810
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,360
Speaker 2: So you know, we've been talking a lot about advertisers

811
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 2: and extending you know, the number of games played in

812
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 2: order to expand I guess, the number of eyeballs on

813
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 2: the game and all of that. There are other ways

814
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 2: that FIFA is catering to the American market. So for instance,

815
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 2: we now have mandated water breaks, which basically turns the

816
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 2: game into like quarters, right that something that looks a

817
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 2: lot more like an American football game than it used to.

818
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 2: How far could we go in terms of the americanization

819
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 2: of I guess, you know traditionally European slash World football.

820
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 3: So the other strange thing to me is games start late.

821
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 3: They start like not really late, they just start like

822
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,239
Speaker 3: five minutes lateh which never happens in Europe and even

823
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 3: in the You know, these cultures like Italy, Spain, Argentina,

824
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 3: whe everyone's like late all the time, and that's part

825
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 3: of the culture. Football never kicks off late.

826
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 2: The suspense in America keep them, yeah.

827
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,359
Speaker 3: Maybe, but it's like I'm sitting on my sofa being

828
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:23,279
Speaker 3: like where are they? Like, you know, I've got stuff to.

829
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,839
Speaker 1: Do, like announcing, and someone's singing the national anthem. Yeah

830
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 1: someone Yeah. That does seem like an American thing where

831
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 1: there's that real much connection to the nominal time of

832
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,359
Speaker 1: the sporting event and the actual kickoff or tip off.

833
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:37,839
Speaker 3: But the hydration thing, I mean, I try, I'm trying

834
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 3: desperately not to be sort of European traditionalists shouting at cloud.

835
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 3: But hydration breaks are bad. I think they're really bad

836
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 3: because they completely break up the flow of the game.

837
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 3: I've been watching a few where it's kind of really exciting.

838
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,280
Speaker 3: You maybe had like an underdog hit it against the ropes,

839
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 3: like playing really well, and then it complearly takes the

840
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 3: pace out of everything. And I get it. If it's

841
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 3: forty degrees like in Texas, fine, but they're doing in

842
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 3: these condition stadiums. They're doing in Toronto when it was

843
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,720
Speaker 3: like raining it's unnecessary, and I think it's really damaging,

844
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 3: and I think like the rules of the game have

845
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:09,439
Speaker 3: barely changed in one hundred and twenty years. It would

846
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:11,800
Speaker 3: be instantly recognizable if you went back to nineteen hundred.

847
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 3: And it's a precious thing, and I think if you

848
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:15,800
Speaker 3: meddle with it a bit, you risk kind of ruining

849
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 3: the whole experience.

850
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:18,800
Speaker 1: I have to say, going to the game and Madrid,

851
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,799
Speaker 1: I really liked basically knowing what time the game was

852
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 1: going to end. You know, you get there at a

853
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 1: certain time, forty five minutes shorter plus a couple of

854
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 1: minutes break, forty five minutes plus a couple of minutes

855
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 1: game's over. And I thought, like, for planning my night,

856
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: it was just very nice to not have to concern

857
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:34,840
Speaker 1: as it's going to go.

858
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 3: You know.

859
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 1: I guess there could have been like penalty kicks or

860
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 1: something like that, or overtime, but.

861
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 3: Even then it could be two and a half hours.

862
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 3: That's an absolute maximum.

863
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, with this actually just reminded me when MLS was

864
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:49,840
Speaker 2: just getting off the ground, didn't they have like something

865
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 2: where if you were doing penalty shootouts you had to

866
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,279
Speaker 2: like dribble for ages and it was supposed to make

867
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 2: it more exciting.

868
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 3: Ring it's great. Yeah, you like that. I love it. Yeah,

869
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,360
Speaker 3: American innovation done right. I mean it's so cool. If

870
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 3: you watch on YouTube, you see these guys with these

871
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 3: like really baggy shirts and they all just look like

872
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:07,400
Speaker 3: though some of those players were like college players, you know,

873
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:09,319
Speaker 3: w ended up playing for the national team. And the

874
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 3: way you do it is you get the ball like

875
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 3: maybe around the halfway line and you just sort of

876
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:14,879
Speaker 3: run at the goal. Yeah, it makes it much more

877
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:17,280
Speaker 3: even it's harder to score, so it's like a fifty

878
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 3: like a hockey. I think a hockey penalty is like

879
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 3: fifty to fifty, but a football penalty is like eighty percent,

880
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 3: and it means most of the time it goes in.

881
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 3: When it doesn't, it's like devastating for the person who misses.

882
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:29,880
Speaker 3: But it's a much more Yeah, it's fun, it's exciting.

883
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 3: I'm well up for that. Like, you know, let the

884
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 3: Americans do their things.

885
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 2: Now I have to run something by both of you.

886
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 2: So I had an idea for making football more exciting

887
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 2: for Americans. So the complaint that you always hear or

888
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 2: at least score that, my dad says, right, they don't

889
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 2: score enough goals. Never mind that in the last Super

890
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:50,280
Speaker 2: Bowl there were like two meaningful touchdowns or something, but whatever,

891
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:53,360
Speaker 2: there aren't enough goals in soccer. So what if you

892
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 2: started awarding points for corner, So if you get one

893
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 2: point per corner successful corner, and then you got three

894
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:02,799
Speaker 2: points for a goal.

895
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 3: Oh I'm unconvinced about that. But the Spain KD was

896
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 3: thrilling and that was nil nil.

897
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 2: Criticism by the way, you know what I.

898
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:14,840
Speaker 3: Makes it.

899
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 1: You know what I was introduced to. Our producer Kill

900
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:18,840
Speaker 1: showed me this before the athletic game, which I had

901
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 1: never seen that there was this very like predictive essentially

902
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:25,719
Speaker 1: I don't know, machine learning AI type thing where at

903
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,279
Speaker 1: any given moment, there's like the swing and you could

904
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 1: see like who has the momentum? What are these charts called.

905
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 3: Like the momentum jot.

906
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's yeah, the momentum charts, and you could say,

907
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:37,359
Speaker 1: like so that you could see like a team in

908
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 1: this position would have scored a goal like seventy percent. Yeah,

909
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:45,479
Speaker 1: And I was thinking maybe a nice way to add

910
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 1: some more attention is that in the event of a draw,

911
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,799
Speaker 1: that you award the victory to the team that had

912
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 1: the greater momentum throughout the game.

913
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:55,840
Speaker 2: No, why wouldn't you just have a penalty shootout?

914
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 1: No, because then you just encourage attacking play throughout so

915
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 1: that you're rewarded in the event of a draw. You

916
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 1: what do you think about that proposal that in the

917
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 1: event of raw, Yeah, yeah, that's the tiebreaker expect exactly.

918
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 1: So the tiebreaker is expected goals, and therefore you're rewarded

919
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:18,280
Speaker 1: for having played consistent attacking play throughout the game, even

920
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:21,359
Speaker 1: if you know it didn't materialize and the ball went

921
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:22,800
Speaker 1: out the post or something like that. What do you

922
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:23,359
Speaker 1: think about that?

923
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:25,399
Speaker 3: But when the team wins on it, so I expected goals,

924
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 3: which how yeah good. But when team leaves with a

925
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 3: better XG, that's the thrill of it, right, that's why

926
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 3: you get.

927
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, that's exciting, and I totally get that.

928
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 1: And you're like, we should like if one team had

929
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 1: better XG but the other team got more goals, fine,

930
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 1: that's exciting. But in the event of a tie, you

931
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 1: go to the x G and then you like, rather

932
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 1: than like sort of very defensive.

933
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 2: People would find some way to game that too. And

934
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 2: also people are already up in arms about the var Yeah,

935
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:53,959
Speaker 2: and by the way, I still can't say var without

936
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 2: thinking about yours.

937
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 1: But I thought that was exciting. During the game, there

938
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 1: were two times where the referee years went back and

939
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 1: looked at a call that was made on the field,

940
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 1: and I found it that was interesting. The energy in

941
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 1: the stadium was incredibly high waiting for those referee reviews,

942
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:14,480
Speaker 1: and I sort of thought it added to the fun

943
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 1: of like being in the stadium while we were waiting

944
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 1: for the calls.

945
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 3: I think it's got better, Yeah, I think it's sped up.

946
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 3: I think at the beginning there are a lot of

947
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,320
Speaker 3: teething pains and it was often really slow, and often

948
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:25,359
Speaker 3: people in the stadiums. What they're doing better at now

949
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 3: is communicating to the people in the stadium, Because I've

950
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 3: been in a stadium where it just goes on for

951
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 3: like five minutes. People are like texting their friends saying,

952
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:33,800
Speaker 3: what's going on? Are you're watching on TV? So it

953
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:36,880
Speaker 3: has got better. I think there are still like huge

954
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 3: problems with a lot of these calls are fundamentally subjective, right, Yeah,

955
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:42,719
Speaker 3: Like an offside is objective, but so you know, is

956
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 3: a foul a foul? Is a handball? You know? If

957
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:46,879
Speaker 3: it bangs you on your shoulder there, it's not a fowl,

958
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:50,439
Speaker 3: but if it's the things cannot be perfected through data

959
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 3: or whatever else, so there will always be that tension there.

960
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:56,439
Speaker 1: It's funny you mentioned texting people who are watching on TV.

961
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,760
Speaker 1: So many of the fans that I saw were watching

962
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 1: CASS on their phone during the game, so that they

963
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 1: would have like a little like stream on their phone

964
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 1: and so during the call. That's sad, yeah, whatever they

965
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 1: were like getting more commentary and stuff like that.

966
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:12,800
Speaker 3: That nah, that's.

967
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:15,880
Speaker 2: Sad and also okay, but almost kind of like that

968
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 2: you mentioned energy just then, how do we get a

969
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:25,319
Speaker 2: proper chant culture going in American football or football which

970
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 2: takes place in America? And I think even in the

971
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 2: UK some of the chanting is starting to go away

972
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 2: a little bit, which is very disappointing.

973
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think I think it's partly to do

974
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:35,920
Speaker 3: with the sort of who was in the crowd. You know,

975
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 3: it's much more of a sort of big family event

976
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:39,919
Speaker 3: in the in the in the US, potential the UK

977
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:42,280
Speaker 3: is becoming more so was previously would have been mainly

978
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 3: kind of big groups of young men who probably chant

979
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:47,360
Speaker 3: more than families to be honest, and that's changed, and

980
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:48,799
Speaker 3: that's probably a good thing for the most part, but

981
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 3: certainly the culture has changed quite a bit. But yeah,

982
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:52,439
Speaker 3: I mean some of these songs, some of these songs

983
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 3: in English football have like a century of history. But

984
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 3: I've been just become an MLS game, so I thought

985
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:57,880
Speaker 3: the atmosphere is pretty good. I went to the New

986
00:42:57,920 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 3: York Red Bulls and I was, I don't know, expect

987
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 3: seeing a sort of Yeah, the U asked this of

988
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:04,319
Speaker 3: Energy Drink Company, and it was pretty good. Like I

989
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:04,880
Speaker 3: was impressed.

990
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 2: The Cosmos games were always really good because people would

991
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:09,880
Speaker 2: bring like drum sets and stuff. But in terms of chanting,

992
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:13,440
Speaker 2: I have to say, in my experience, the ultimate champions

993
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 2: are actually Japanese baseball teams. Oh yeah, I've heard do

994
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 2: it like mar In the Unison.

995
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:21,240
Speaker 1: I really really want to go to a Japanese.

996
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,879
Speaker 2: That's great vibes. If you like the Cyclone, Yeah, it's

997
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,319
Speaker 2: I that's definitely high up on the Actually one last question,

998
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 2: my understanding.

999
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 1: So obviously football has become more popular in the United

1000
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 1: States today in twenty twenty six than it was in

1001
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four, my understanding, And tell me if I'm

1002
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:39,840
Speaker 1: wrong is that if you go to like a typical

1003
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 1: American football fan, there will be some people who are

1004
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:46,080
Speaker 1: like really into They'll have their favorite Premier League team

1005
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:48,759
Speaker 1: or their favorite European team that they're really into, or

1006
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 1: there'll be some who are like really into the MLS,

1007
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 1: but that there isn't a lot of crossover. That's still

1008
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 1: like you're sort of either into European football or American MLS,

1009
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 1: but not really you're like kind of one or the others.

1010
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 3: That the I think that's true, and the MLS has

1011
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,360
Speaker 3: real pockets. I think like in the Northwest, im Portland

1012
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:06,360
Speaker 3: and Seattle it's long and big. There are other places

1013
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 3: where are particularly strong and yeah, and I think there

1014
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 3: is sometimes a bit of a sort of culture war

1015
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:12,320
Speaker 3: between I mean you get this in Europe or in

1016
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:14,840
Speaker 3: England of teams who support their small local team versus

1017
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 3: the big team on TV.

1018
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1019
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:18,799
Speaker 3: But I think one interesting thing with European leagues is

1020
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:21,919
Speaker 3: that the English League is currently like eating everyone else's lunch.

1021
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:24,160
Speaker 3: It's just like becoming this sort of winner takes all

1022
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 3: all the TV revenue is flowing there and it's really

1023
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:29,720
Speaker 3: harming sort of Spain and Italy and these huge football

1024
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:32,799
Speaker 3: institutions like AC Milan have less money than these like

1025
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:33,840
Speaker 3: tiny English teams.

1026
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:35,840
Speaker 1: Which I feel like you don't hear about the Bundesliga

1027
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:37,320
Speaker 1: all anymore.

1028
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:39,480
Speaker 3: Right, like you win it every year, so it's kind

1029
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:39,920
Speaker 3: of boring.

1030
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, anyway, I.

1031
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 2: Just want to go back to the big Will FIFA

1032
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:45,800
Speaker 2: kill the Golden Goose?

1033
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, question?

1034
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:50,280
Speaker 2: It's sad. In my head, I'm doing a goal golden

1035
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 2: pun but you can't even tell on the podcast. So

1036
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:56,759
Speaker 2: I apologize for mentioning that at all. But how far

1037
00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 2: can you actually push commercialization? And as we see FIFA

1038
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 2: especially try to make more space for advertisers through They

1039
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 2: haven't said this explicitly when they talk about the hydration

1040
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 2: breaks they say it's all great, yeah, the welfare of

1041
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:14,400
Speaker 2: the players and all of that, but like it certainly

1042
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:17,880
Speaker 2: looks like they're making defined space for ads. At what

1043
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:20,360
Speaker 2: point does it mean that you start to lose some

1044
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:22,880
Speaker 2: of the magic of the sport. I'm sure you've been

1045
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 2: asked this question a ton and you probably thought about

1046
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 2: it a ton.

1047
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, I think it can happen. I think it probably.

1048
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 3: I basically think the World Cup is like, well, for me,

1049
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:33,840
Speaker 3: it's like the pinnacle of human civilization and the greatest

1050
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:35,760
Speaker 3: cultural event on Earth, and it is the biggest cultural

1051
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 3: event on Earth by absolutely miles. So I think it's

1052
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:39,439
Speaker 3: pretty hard to mess it up, Like you just need

1053
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 3: two teams a pitch, get some fans in. You know,

1054
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 3: it's not some great like you don't need to think

1055
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:45,799
Speaker 3: too hard about how to do it in four years time.

1056
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 3: But the more you meddle with it, the more you

1057
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:49,000
Speaker 3: tinker at the edges. I don't think the whole thing

1058
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:51,400
Speaker 3: would come like crashing down overnight, but I do think

1059
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 3: if you keep meddling with it, then children will become

1060
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 3: less into it than their parents did, and very slowly

1061
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:57,759
Speaker 3: you could sort of chip away at the edges of it.

1062
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:01,239
Speaker 3: They're obviously so much more a ten and distractions these

1063
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:04,319
Speaker 3: days that someone sitting still for two hours is like

1064
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:06,440
Speaker 3: harder to convince them to do. But yeah, I think

1065
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:08,799
Speaker 3: in the short term, like they can probably rinse even

1066
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 3: more cash out of it, to be honest, because it's

1067
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:11,480
Speaker 3: just such a perfect event.

1068
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:14,279
Speaker 1: All right, Joey Durso, thank you so much for coming

1069
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 1: on to odd Loads. I'm glad we got a World

1070
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 1: Cup episode and there's so much going on in the

1071
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 1: World right now, but it could have easily done a

1072
00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 1: bunch of a million AI episodes. And I'm glad we

1073
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 1: covered the World Cup. And you're the perfect guest, So

1074
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:27,279
Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on Oddline.

1075
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. I'm go to.

1076
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:43,760
Speaker 1: It, Tracy. There was a lot of fun, many interesting points.

1077
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 1: I thought. One thing I thought was interesting is the

1078
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:50,440
Speaker 1: idea of the fandom of the player rather than the

1079
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:53,799
Speaker 1: team emerging over time. You get these global superstars like

1080
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 1: a Messy or a Ronaldo or maybe like a Beckham or.

1081
00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:59,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, but then the ritory you're not a real fan,

1082
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 2: No you're not, but like you.

1083
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:02,719
Speaker 1: Know, like from the perspective, then they like take their

1084
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 1: money with them from one city to or another. I

1085
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 1: could see that really changing the game or is sort

1086
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:10,840
Speaker 1: of like changing the nature of like people's relationship with

1087
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:11,320
Speaker 1: the sport.

1088
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, but again, like if I was going to be

1089
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:19,400
Speaker 2: cynical about this, it makes it even more about the money, right, No, no, no, no.

1090
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:20,879
Speaker 1: No, not saying there's a good thing. I'm saying that's

1091
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 1: an interesting shift in how people, right.

1092
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:26,160
Speaker 2: And I'm saying that an effect of that will be

1093
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 2: that whoever has the most money I can afford, like

1094
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:32,280
Speaker 2: the best player just gets them and gets even bigger,

1095
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 2: even more money, and it's this like self reinforcing cycle,

1096
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:37,680
Speaker 2: which is what we're seeing in a lot of European

1097
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 2: football at the moment. By the way, material culture trivia

1098
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 2: for you on the pink jersey point, go on, did

1099
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:46,440
Speaker 2: you know that pink used to be much more of

1100
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:49,840
Speaker 2: a gender neutral color, even more of a masculine color

1101
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 2: than a feminine color?

1102
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:50,920
Speaker 3: Really?

1103
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, what do you have any idea when that changed?

1104
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:55,760
Speaker 2: I think in the like early to mid nineteen hundred.

1105
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 2: It's kind of interesting, So.

1106
00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 1: I would like to learn more about that. We should

1107
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:01,240
Speaker 1: also have joy on back again, maybe in quieter days

1108
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:05,880
Speaker 1: talk about the connection between football and the stock market

1109
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:08,279
Speaker 1: crash in the nineteen twenties. Yeah, I had no idea.

1110
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 1: Maybe I'll go find I'll google that and read more

1111
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 1: on that. But I'm very curious about that. But uh no,

1112
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:17,560
Speaker 1: it's uh that was that was a really fun conversation.

1113
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:19,319
Speaker 2: Where are you supporting in the World Cup?

1114
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:21,400
Speaker 1: I don't know, you know what, I've really been like

1115
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:24,560
Speaker 1: so busy. I just like, like, you know, we've been

1116
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 1: traveling and the next and so I'm like I need

1117
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:30,080
Speaker 1: this weekend. We're recording this, I think about it. I

1118
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:31,799
Speaker 1: don't know for real, Well, like I have a washer

1119
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:33,920
Speaker 1: World Cup match yet, so it's June's that we're recording

1120
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:36,319
Speaker 1: this on June sixteen. If I need this weekend to

1121
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:39,319
Speaker 1: like sort of reset every this week to reset and

1122
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 1: sort of get my bearing, It's like, Okay, what World

1123
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 1: Cup matches? Am I going? I just have not had

1124
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:46,840
Speaker 1: that had the mental space to allocate, like you know,

1125
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:48,879
Speaker 1: I remember like in twenty ten, I was gonna bring

1126
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 1: it up. I loved that one with the vuviz elas.

1127
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:54,360
Speaker 1: That was the one in South Afri That was I

1128
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 1: love that one And like everyone in Brooklyn with there,

1129
00:48:57,080 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 1: I thought.

1130
00:48:57,440 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 2: That was my nightmare, being in a football stadium with

1131
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:01,320
Speaker 2: someone with a voozo.

1132
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:02,400
Speaker 1: I could find me.

1133
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:06,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, what does the cape Ford jerseys actually look like? Wait?

1134
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:11,840
Speaker 2: I want to see They're blue? Could be better still?

1135
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:15,359
Speaker 2: Cape Ford for the for the win. Shall we leave

1136
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 2: it there?

1137
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:16,319
Speaker 1: Let's leave it there.

1138
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:19,400
Speaker 2: This has been another episode of the aud Thoughts podcast.

1139
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 2: I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway.

1140
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:24,279
Speaker 1: And I'm Joe Why isn't Thal? You can follow me

1141
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:27,320
Speaker 1: at the Stalwart. You can follow our guest Joey Durso.

1142
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:30,160
Speaker 1: He's at Joseph M. Derso and check out his book

1143
00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:33,360
Speaker 1: More Than a Shirt, How Football Shirts Explain Global Politics,

1144
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:37,560
Speaker 1: money and Power. Follow our producers Carmen Rodriguez at Carmen Arman,

1145
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:40,400
Speaker 1: dash O Bennett at Dashbod, Keile Brooks at Cail Brooks

1146
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 1: and Kevin Lozano at Kevin Lloyd Lozano. And for more

1147
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 1: odd Lots content, go to Bloomberg dot com slash odd

1148
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:47,839
Speaker 1: Lots or of a daily newsletter. In all of our

1149
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 1: episodes and you can shout about all these topics twenty

1150
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 1: four seven in our discord discord gg slash odd Lots.

1151
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 2: And if you enjoy odd Lots, if you like it

1152
00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 2: when we do sports talk I guess, then please leave

1153
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:02,520
Speaker 2: us a positive review on your favorite podcast platform. And remember,

1154
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:04,799
Speaker 2: if you are a Bloomberg subscriber, you can listen to

1155
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:07,839
Speaker 2: all of our episodes absolutely ad free. All you need

1156
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 2: to do is find the Bloomberg channel on Apple Podcasts

1157
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:13,080
Speaker 2: and follow the instructions there. Thanks for listening