Speaker 1: Hey's your listeners. I'm Christine, one of the producers on Zero.
Speaker 1: Today we're sharing an episode from another climate podcast that
Speaker 1: you might like. It's called the Anti Dread Climate Podcast
Speaker 1: from KCRW. Please enjoy and if you like what you hear,
Speaker 1: check them out wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2: Candice, what is your experience if you try to get
Speaker 2: somebody on board with like composting or bringing a reusable
Speaker 2: water bottle to the office, or like any kind of
Speaker 2: those like climate friendly life changes.
Speaker 3: Oh, that's my life right. As an environmental educator, I
Speaker 3: spend so much time going and just answering, mostly answering questions.
Speaker 3: I will say that it's not always me running up
Speaker 3: people going stop, yeah in the name of the climate.
Speaker 3: It's a lot of answering questions like well, what's better
Speaker 3: a fake Christmas tree or a real Christmas tree? And
Speaker 3: answer that question all the time. So these are the
Speaker 3: sorts of things that happened. So my experience is that
Speaker 3: I try to be a resource, not a regulator. That's
Speaker 3: my perspective.
Speaker 2: That is a really hard line to tread. I think
Speaker 2: it really depends on you know, like if they ask
Speaker 2: me like, oh, well, should this go in this bin,
Speaker 2: or if I'm showing up and being like, hey, did
Speaker 2: you know you put that in the wrong spot? Yes,
Speaker 2: I don't mind being either one of them. Right. And
Speaker 2: actually this is sort of the topic that Karina wrote
Speaker 2: in about because she is trying to tread that really
Speaker 2: fine line too. She she lives in North Hollywood. She
Speaker 2: works in a at a dramatic arts college in Los Angeles,
Speaker 2: and so because she works in office space, she sees
Speaker 2: a lot of plastic and paper waste come through every day.
Speaker 3: I see.
Speaker 4: I was wondering if there are any like tips or
Speaker 4: tricks about how I can influence people in the faculty
Speaker 4: lounge to be more eco conscious every day.
Speaker 2: So she really cares. She really wants to bring this
Speaker 2: up to her manager and her coworkers.
Speaker 4: But I don't want to be like that person that's
Speaker 4: like policing the faculty lounge and being like, are you
Speaker 4: going to reuse that paper cover? Are you going to
Speaker 4: recycle that plastic bottle? Because we have recycling bins over here.
Speaker 4: You know it doesn't have to go in the trash,
Speaker 4: it could go in don't want to be that person.
Speaker 2: It's hard. Being a climate cop is hard.
Speaker 3: Well, I would much rather be a climate Charlie's Angel.
Speaker 2: Than Charlie's angel.
Speaker 3: Surely that that's how I picture myself. But no, that
Speaker 3: is so difficult, and you don't want to be that person,
Speaker 3: and eventually people stop listening to that person, so then
Speaker 3: you're not evening effective as being that person. So I
Speaker 3: get it again what she's asking about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, Karina, as you can tell, this really resonates
Speaker 2: with us. I find myself in your shoes all the time.
Speaker 2: I have gently nudged and not so gently nudged my
Speaker 2: family and my coworkers and my friends, and I get it. Like,
Speaker 2: doing this without being annoying is really not easy, absolutely,
Speaker 2: but let's give it a shot anyway. From KCRW, this
Speaker 2: is the Anti Dread Climate Podcast, Your practical personal guide
Speaker 2: to protecting the Planets. I'm Kaylie Wells, kcw's climate reporter.
Speaker 3: And I'm Candasick and Trustle environmental educator and CEO at
Speaker 3: Friends in the La River. So this is really a
Speaker 3: behavioral psychology of question. You're trying to alter behavior in
Speaker 3: a way that doesn't make people resistant or mad, or
Speaker 3: annoyed or just stop listening to you after a.
Speaker 2: While, exactly, And that's what makes this so tough, which
Speaker 2: is why I talked to this guy named Ken Donnelly.
Speaker 2: He is president of a group called Beyond Attitude Consulting,
Speaker 2: which is exactly the kind of business that you hire.
Speaker 2: If say you're a company and you've decided you're going
Speaker 2: to be really climate friendly, and you're trying to get
Speaker 2: all your employees on board with these climate friendly changes.
Speaker 5: We know from behavioral research that just because somebody thinks
Speaker 5: something is a good idea and they know all the
Speaker 5: reasons is it's a good idea, it doesn't mean they'll
Speaker 5: do it.
Speaker 2: And sort of the way he made that point to
Speaker 2: me is, think about donating blood. We all agree that
Speaker 2: donating blood is probably a good thing to do, but
Speaker 2: then when you look around at all the people who
Speaker 2: have actually donated blood, it's something like less than four
Speaker 2: percent of people actually do it. Absolutely, So an easy
Speaker 2: place to start is to make this more eco friendly
Speaker 2: thing the default.
Speaker 3: Yes, that definitely is the answer. So putting the coffee
Speaker 3: mugs out on the table, but the paper cups like
Speaker 3: in a drawer. That's kind of a way make people
Speaker 3: work for the least desirable option a little more.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, have you because I know you've worked in
Speaker 2: more offices than I have. Have you done anything like that?
Speaker 2: Does it work?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 3: It does work. I remember when at my last office
Speaker 3: we had a kurrig and those are just you know,
Speaker 3: everything that goes with being having a kurag. And you
Speaker 3: have these little disposable ca cups that people were using,
Speaker 3: and we were people were taking turns of buying them,
Speaker 3: et cetera. Well, I bought this little green, reusable ca
Speaker 3: cup that you could refill with coffee, and I bought
Speaker 3: really nice coffee to go in there and just kind
Speaker 3: of put the cacups off to the side, and eventually
Speaker 3: people stop buying cacups and would just come in and
Speaker 3: fill up the little reusable cakeup and use it over
Speaker 3: and over again. So it was perfect. So it's this
Speaker 3: gradual phasing out through.
Speaker 2: It's like positive reinforcement.
Speaker 3: It's like positive reinforcement, yes, kind of making the negative
Speaker 3: harder to do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I mean the
Speaker 2: kind of things that Donnelly mentioned were make it so
Speaker 2: that lights turn off automatically in a room, or that
Speaker 2: the printer automatically prints double sided so it doesn't take
Speaker 2: extra effort for somebody to do something more climate friendly.
Speaker 2: That's just sort of the default. And if you want
Speaker 2: to be worse to the planet, you have to try
Speaker 2: harder to be worse to the planet.
Speaker 3: Right, right, So it makes perfect sense to do things
Speaker 3: that are automatic in default, but not every climate friendly
Speaker 3: thing is automatic or can be put on the default.
Speaker 2: That's true. I mean a lot of helping the planet
Speaker 2: is going to require some effort. So he said, start
Speaker 2: with the small asks, like hey, do you mind turning
Speaker 2: off the lights in the room that does not turn
Speaker 2: off automatically before you leave? And when people start doing
Speaker 2: those smaller things, they look at themselves like, hey, I'm
Speaker 2: a good steward of the earth. And so you just
Speaker 2: have to get them on board with the smaller things
Speaker 2: before they are more likely to get on board with
Speaker 2: these harder things because that aligns with this new identity
Speaker 2: that they have for themselves.
Speaker 3: Interesting.
Speaker 2: His other point is try to get people committed. So
Speaker 2: don't just say hey, could you bring your own water
Speaker 2: bottle to work? Be like, hey, can I can? I
Speaker 2: count on you to be one of these people who
Speaker 2: brings your own water bottle to work.
Speaker 3: One of these beacons that's doing the right thing exactly
Speaker 3: that we can kind of share with.
Speaker 2: Them, yeah, like a role model, right, And if they
Speaker 2: say yes, they're more likely to do that because in
Speaker 2: our society your word means a lot.
Speaker 5: The important thing is that verbal commitments are strong, written
Speaker 5: commitments are stronger, and the public commitment is the strongest.
Speaker 5: So if people think that their name might be used,
Speaker 5: they're much more likely to do it.
Speaker 2: Meaning like Okay, you could say, hey, do you mind
Speaker 2: putting your food waste in this organic bin and they'll
Speaker 2: say sure. But if you get them to sign a petition,
Speaker 2: or if you get them to like be on a
Speaker 2: bulletin board with the list.
Speaker 3: Of greens, Yeah, which are the people who are going
Speaker 3: to be helping lead us into this new future.
Speaker 2: It's better than a wall of It's like a wall
Speaker 2: of virtual reorment.
Speaker 3: Yes, the virtuous loop. I like it. There's also this
Speaker 3: aspect of peer pressure, and that can be really useful.
Speaker 3: So if everyone around you is using a mug and
Speaker 3: you're the one person still going into the cabinet and
Speaker 3: reaching the back of the door to get a paper cup,
Speaker 3: you start to feel awkward about it. So if you
Speaker 3: get a bunch of people on your side, then suddenly
Speaker 3: that process begins to happen a lot faster. Yeah, a
Speaker 3: little bit of a tipping point.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I remember what you're talking about with the
Speaker 2: tipping point. And this is sort of getting to one
Speaker 2: of his other main points that you can kick start
Speaker 2: that tipping point process by creating like a sustainability committee.
Speaker 3: Right, yes, that green team.
Speaker 5: Find some other people within your group that have similar
Speaker 5: concerns and want to see change, and set up a
Speaker 5: little committee that meets every so often. Not a great
Speaker 5: big deal, but then you start introducing the low hanging fruit,
Speaker 5: the things that are really easy to do but they
Speaker 5: make a difference.
Speaker 2: This is sort of that point you made about not
Speaker 2: wanting to be climate cop.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 2: Here are your climate Charlie's angels, that's.
Speaker 3: Right, and they're all working together and they are examples
Speaker 3: for everyone else. So people see them doing it and
Speaker 3: they see, Okay, that's not that hard. It's not that
Speaker 3: hard to bring your water bottle, it's not that hard
Speaker 3: to put waste in its place, right, And that becomes
Speaker 3: this little bit of a spiral, right, can happen.
Speaker 2: And it's no longer Karina being the annoying person, the
Speaker 2: annoying squeaky wheel, it's like, well, Karina's part of this
Speaker 2: whole movement right now.
Speaker 3: And we're all going in that direction together. Time for takeaways? Okay, Karna,
Speaker 3: how do you make your office more eco friendly without
Speaker 3: causing an uproar. Make a team of like minded people
Speaker 3: so you're no longer a lone nagger.
Speaker 2: Try to get people to commit. You could get them
Speaker 2: to sign something or at least say that they'll do something,
Speaker 2: because that is way going to increase the chance that
Speaker 2: they'll actually follow through with that commitment.
Speaker 3: And make that climate friendly behavior easier. If you take
Speaker 3: away one option, fill it with another option that's more convenient.
Speaker 2: Like your reusable kickups. Yeah, that's way cooly. Can't just
Speaker 2: tell me what the good news is this week?
Speaker 3: Oh the good news so California is suing big oil.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I've heard about this.
Speaker 3: On September fifteenth, the state claimed that the actions of
Speaker 3: the biggest oil companies have caused tens of billions of
Speaker 3: dollars in damage and that they downplayed and deceive the
Speaker 3: public about the risks of fossil fuels. So the five
Speaker 3: companies that have been targeted are Exonmobile, Shell, BP, Conicle, Phillips,
Speaker 3: and Chevron, and the American Petroleum Institute is also in
Speaker 3: there somewhere. They're an industry trade group and their list
Speaker 3: is a defendant as well. So the lawsuits trying to
Speaker 3: get the oil companies to set aside of fun so
Speaker 3: that when, not if things go terribly wrong for California
Speaker 3: because of climate change, it's the oil companies that will
Speaker 3: have to pay for it, will have to contribute to
Speaker 3: cleaning up and mitigating that problem.
Speaker 2: Okay, And it makes sense that California joining this effort
Speaker 2: is a really big deal because you know, there're been
Speaker 2: other states that have done lawsuits like this, but we
Speaker 2: are the most populous state to file this suit, and
Speaker 2: California is this big producer of fossil fuels, so there
Speaker 2: are a lot of affected parties. Basically, the stakes are
Speaker 2: just a lot higher now, I guess.
Speaker 3: And we get the job done. When California does something
Speaker 3: like this, it's meaningful.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, wow, great, And that's it this week on
Speaker 2: the Anti Dread Climate Podcast. If you haven't, please subscribe
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Speaker 2: That's at KCRW dot com. Slash Climate. That's also where
Speaker 2: you can go if you want to ask us a question.
Speaker 2: Kcrw dot com slash climate.
Speaker 3: Next week we're talking about one of my favorite projects.
Speaker 6: Every single week, I have to either drive over to
Speaker 6: the farmer's market to drop off the compost or sneak
Speaker 6: into my neighbor's bins because my apartment building doesn't have
Speaker 6: the green composting bins. I'm curious whether composting is actually
Speaker 6: worth it, and if so, is there a difference between
Speaker 6: the different composting programs like the green bins that are
Speaker 6: provided by the city versus volunteer programs like La Compost.
Speaker 3: I'm Kandae Sikons Russell, environmental educator and CEO of Friends
Speaker 3: of the La River.
Speaker 2: I'm Kaylie Wells, climate reporter at KCRW. Our executive producer
Speaker 2: is Sonia Geiss, Our production assistant is Selene Mendiola. Technical
Speaker 2: director is John Meek and music by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Speaker 2: The Anti Dread Climate podcast is a KCRW production.