Speaker 1: In twenty seventeen, Barbara Bradley Haggerty was a veteran journalist
Speaker 1: looking for a story, so she called one of her
Speaker 1: favorite sources, a guy named Jim McCluskey.
Speaker 2: Jim McCluskey basically is a founder, the father of the
Speaker 2: modern innocence movement. Back in eighty three, he started the
Speaker 2: first organization that reinvestigated dubious convictions, way before the Innocence
Speaker 2: Project was even thought of. And so I called up
Speaker 2: Jim one day and looking for a story for The Atlantic,
Speaker 2: And I said, Jim, you've gotten like sixty five people
Speaker 2: out of prison. What's the story that haunts you? What
Speaker 2: keeps you up at night? And Jim said, oh, well,
Speaker 2: that's easy. Ben Spencer's story. There's not a day that
Speaker 2: goes by that I don't think about Ben.
Speaker 1: Ben Spencer was a young man who decades before, was
Speaker 1: convicted of a homicide. He always maintained he did not commit.
Speaker 1: Jim McCluskey and his team investigated Ben's case in the
Speaker 1: early two thousands. They put in hundreds of hours of
Speaker 1: work to find out if Ben was telling the truth.
Speaker 1: So Barb decided she was going to do the same.
Speaker 2: I just kind of put one foot in front of
Speaker 2: the other, just like everyone else, and just followed the
Speaker 2: next lead and kind of put little sands of evidence
Speaker 2: in a little pile, and at some point it was
Speaker 2: a pretty big mound, you know, it was. It was
Speaker 2: pretty compelling.
Speaker 1: Do you find yourself more than just a journalist?
Speaker 3: Now?
Speaker 1: Do you think you're an activist?
Speaker 2: You know? I don't think, Okay, how do I put this?
Speaker 2: I'm an activist for Ben because I think he's innocent
Speaker 2: and I think the truth does need to come out.
Speaker 1: After years of research and door knocking, Barb feels like
Speaker 1: she got to the truth of the matter.
Speaker 2: This guy could not have killed someone in cold blood.
Speaker 1: And Barb thinks she knows who did, but it wasn't Ben.
Speaker 4: My name is Benjamin Spencer. I'm a native of Dallas,
Speaker 4: and I was wrongfully incarcerated for thirty four years.
Speaker 1: This is wrongful conviction with Maggie Freeling today, Ben Spencer.
Speaker 1: Ben Spencer was born December twentieth, nineteen sixty four, to
Speaker 1: Benjamin and Lucille Spencer in Dallas, Texas. He's one of
Speaker 1: five kids, right in the middle, and he grew up
Speaker 1: in a religious and strict household.
Speaker 4: My mother She was the disciplinarian in the family, and
Speaker 4: so if we ever did something like didn't clean the
Speaker 4: house like we was posed to, my dad would always
Speaker 4: tell us he's going to tell our mom if we
Speaker 4: didn't do it and we didn't want to.
Speaker 3: Uh, I guess, be victims of her rat.
Speaker 1: What would that look like?
Speaker 3: Ooh terrible. We used to get whoopings.
Speaker 4: I mean, wasn't a such thing as punishment or standing
Speaker 4: in the corner or you don't get to.
Speaker 3: Go outside stuff.
Speaker 4: You would probably get whooped and not get to go outside.
Speaker 1: So yeah, see, you guys were all pretty in line,
Speaker 1: good kids. Still, Ben was a playful kid.
Speaker 4: I was just a middle child, and I guess I
Speaker 4: was the one that always got into stuff.
Speaker 1: I guess, but like, what does that mean? What kind
Speaker 1: of stuff?
Speaker 4: I've never watched Mary Poppins, but I remember the scene
Speaker 4: where she would come down with the umbrella. So I
Speaker 4: would get to the highest point of our garage and
Speaker 4: jump off with the umbrella one time and bust my head,
Speaker 4: you know, stuff Like I was.
Speaker 1: Adventurous like that, and he was curious.
Speaker 4: I used to like to know how things operated, like
Speaker 4: if I got a toy or car or something, I
Speaker 4: was always interested and curious as to how it was
Speaker 4: put together, so I would take.
Speaker 3: A loose and put it back together.
Speaker 1: He was handy, and into his teens, Ben put those
Speaker 1: skills to work at a cabinet factory, making five dollars
Speaker 1: an hour.
Speaker 4: I put in a lot of overtime, so Wednesday, around
Speaker 4: about eleven o'clock, I would already have forty hours in.
Speaker 1: And Ben liked spending that overtime money on nice clothes.
Speaker 4: A Ralph Lawn, Polo, Georgia Omiani, stuff like that. So
Speaker 4: I used to like to dress nice.
Speaker 1: He liked shopping at Neiman Marcus.
Speaker 4: And my moms used to get on me about the
Speaker 4: money I would spend on one shirt. She was like,
Speaker 4: you could buy several outfits for what you pay for
Speaker 4: that one shirt. I'm like, well, whose money is this
Speaker 4: miney yours?
Speaker 1: Ben says he'd bring a change of clothes to the
Speaker 1: club just in case anyone else had the same shirt on.
Speaker 1: Decades later, sitting in front of me, I can tell
Speaker 1: you this man is still a fashionista. He's soft spoken,
Speaker 1: but his looks do the talking. He's wearing a plaid
Speaker 1: suit in dark grays and.
Speaker 3: Purples, white heel figure shirt and.
Speaker 1: The tie a paisley tie with hints of bronze and
Speaker 1: a gold Michael Kore's watch on his left wrist. Did
Speaker 1: you pick this up?
Speaker 3: I did?
Speaker 1: And on top of style. Ben Spencer is tall six',
Speaker 1: four dark and, handsome and one day in nineteen eighty,
Speaker 1: three while he was out for some pizza with, Friends
Speaker 1: ben's good looks caught the attention of a.
Speaker 4: Girl i'm sitting and eating a piece of waiting on my,
Speaker 4: friend and this girl walks over to the table and
Speaker 4: she tells me that her friend likes me and she
Speaker 4: wants you to have a.
Speaker 1: Number that friend Was Deborah child's also tall and pretty and.
Speaker 4: GOOD i used to smoke, WEED i used to Drink
Speaker 4: and one of the THINGS i liked About deborah she
Speaker 4: wasn't doing any of the THINGS i was.
Speaker 3: Doing she came from a Good.
Speaker 4: And what's strange is we grew up around the corner
Speaker 4: from each, OTHER i mean literally less maybe a block
Speaker 4: away from each, other and we had never met, wow
Speaker 4: up until we was eighteen years.
Speaker 1: Old she Was ben's first real, girlfriend and she'd soon
Speaker 1: become the mother of his. Child and what did your
Speaker 1: mom think about the. Pregnancy, oh she was.
Speaker 3: Excited, yeah my mother really Liked deborah a.
Speaker 4: Lot my mother didn't allow you to have a girlfriend
Speaker 4: or boyfriend living in her house.
Speaker 3: While you weren't. Married And deborah was the.
Speaker 4: First, Actually deborah AND i are the only two who
Speaker 4: got away with.
Speaker 3: That my oldest brother didn't get away with.
Speaker 4: It my oldest, sister younger, sister youngest, brother none of
Speaker 4: them got away with, that but we.
Speaker 1: Did and soon, after at twenty two years, old he
Speaker 1: Asked deborah's dad for her hand in.
Speaker 4: Marriage her dad used to be at this garage all
Speaker 4: the time with this guy who fixed, cars and SO
Speaker 4: i went up there AND i was, like, ms, CHILD
Speaker 4: i talk to.
Speaker 3: You he was, like, yeah what is it.
Speaker 4: BEING i was, like you, KNOW i would like to
Speaker 4: marry your, daughter you, know if you would give me.
Speaker 4: Permission and he was, like, oh of, course being, sure you.
Speaker 3: Can marry my, daughter no.
Speaker 1: Question.
Speaker 4: Yeah he was, like you're gonna take care of, him?
Speaker 4: RIGHT i, said, yes, Sir i'm going to take care of.
Speaker 4: Him and SO i promised HIM i will take care of.
Speaker 1: Him But ben wouldn't be able to keep his.
Speaker 4: Promise and that's one of the most unfortunate things, is
Speaker 4: we got, married and of COURSE i wasn't able to
Speaker 4: fulfill WHAT i had told HIM i would.
Speaker 1: Do just two months after the, wedding their lives came crumbling.
Speaker 1: Down march twenty, second nineteen eighty seven started normal For Ben.
Speaker 1: Spencer what do you remember that?
Speaker 3: Day pretty much the whole, day the entire.
Speaker 1: Day early in the, day he And deborah visited, family
Speaker 1: like they did every. Weekend that was.
Speaker 4: Our routine For saturdays And. Sundays her mother AND i
Speaker 4: were Playing domino's and, CARDS i think it was.
Speaker 1: Cards and like he often, Did ben Teased deborah's older, Sister.
Speaker 3: Sissy sis AND i had this relationship where we would tease.
Speaker 1: Each, other but this Time ben may have taken it
Speaker 1: too far And deborah wasn't having.
Speaker 4: It deborah immediately just raised off the floor like she
Speaker 4: had springs on and she was, Like i'm ready to,
Speaker 4: go And i'm, like you ready to? Go she was, like,
Speaker 4: Yeah i'm ready to. Go AND i could tell she's
Speaker 4: upset about. SOMETHING i don't know what she's upset, about
Speaker 4: but she's. Upset and so she was, like you need
Speaker 4: to come home before you get. Left and so we
Speaker 4: get halfway home And she was, like you didn't have
Speaker 4: to say that to.
Speaker 3: HER i was, like that's what you're upset. ABOUT i,
Speaker 3: said you, Know i'd be teasing playing With.
Speaker 1: Sissy But deborah was, mad and after they got, Home
Speaker 1: ben decided to let her cool, off so we left
Speaker 1: the house In deborah's Red thunderbird and went to see some.
Speaker 1: Friends ben says it was still early in the afternoon
Speaker 1: and he hung out all day playing chess and. Cards
Speaker 1: then in the, Evening ben attempted to make his way
Speaker 1: home THAT.
Speaker 3: I had stopped and got some chicken from Both, deborah but.
Speaker 1: His plans to go home got derailed when he ran
Speaker 1: into some, friends including a track star and high school
Speaker 1: senior Named. Christy christy had her eyes set On, ben
Speaker 1: tall and, handsome And ben welcomed the attention From, christy
Speaker 1: so they hung out all evening and eventually got in
Speaker 1: the Red thunderbird and drove to a nearby, park where
Speaker 1: they stayed until after, midnight close to.
Speaker 4: One, o'clock AND i noticed the time AND i was, like,
Speaker 4: well MAYBE i should take you. HOME i got to
Speaker 4: get up in the morning take my wife to, work
Speaker 4: and she, said, well, YEAH i gotta go to school
Speaker 4: for practice in the morning because he ran, track.
Speaker 1: So he went home and that was. That ben says
Speaker 1: he'd been faithful To deborah up until that. Point he
Speaker 1: says it was a one night. Stand in the heat
Speaker 1: of the, argument he'd have to work up the courage
Speaker 1: to Tell, deborah And ben went to, bed not knowing
Speaker 1: that his problems would soon go far beyond cheating on his.
Speaker 1: Wife the next, Day ben was on his way to
Speaker 1: work when a friend stopped him and.
Speaker 3: He was, like, man did you hear about what happened last?
Speaker 3: NIGHT i was, Like, noah what's?
Speaker 4: That he, Said, man it's police everywhere in the neighborhood last.
Speaker 4: NIGHT i, said what? Happened he, said they found some
Speaker 4: white guy out there On puget and they found two
Speaker 4: stolen cars in the, alley one in this, alley one another.
Speaker 4: ALLEY i was, like, okay he, said, oh, man police
Speaker 4: was hot last. NIGHT i, said, well, NAH i heard
Speaker 4: anything about. IT i, said, well let me go on
Speaker 4: and go CAUSE i got to get to. Work SO
Speaker 4: i left and that WAS i, mean that was pretty
Speaker 4: much ALL i had learned that they had found a
Speaker 4: white guy in the.
Speaker 3: Neighborhood and it.
Speaker 1: Was just a few days later that you were, arrested,
Speaker 1: Right did you have any inkling that was going to? Happen?
Speaker 1: None can you tell me about the? Crime what happened that?
Speaker 1: Night who was Jeff?
Speaker 3: Young?
Speaker 2: So Jeffrey young was thirty three years, old, white married
Speaker 2: to his high school, sweetheart the father of three children
Speaker 2: under ten years.
Speaker 1: Old this Is barbara, Again she goes By.
Speaker 2: BARB i worked FOR npr for nineteen years and ended
Speaker 2: up doing a story About Ben spencer FOR npr but
Speaker 2: also For The, atlantic Where i'm a contributing.
Speaker 1: Writer LIKE i, Said barb first heard Of ben in twenty,
Speaker 1: seventeen and she has spent hundreds of hours working on
Speaker 1: and interviewing key people in this. Case her journey is
Speaker 1: documented in her latest, Book Bringing Ben. Home in, it
Speaker 1: she also tries to answer what happened To Jeffrey, young
Speaker 1: the man who was killed that? Night in nineteen eighty,
Speaker 1: Seven he.
Speaker 2: Worked for a clothing import. Company he was actually about
Speaker 2: to become, president and On sunday nights he would go
Speaker 2: in to work because many of his clients see people
Speaker 2: imported from were In. Asia so it was There monday.
Speaker 1: Morning barb, Says jeffrey was alone at the warehouse waiting
Speaker 1: to get on his.
Speaker 2: Computer back, then it was the ancient days of, computers
Speaker 2: and so he had to basically ask permission to get
Speaker 2: on his computer. System and he called up the guy
Speaker 2: who handled the computer, systems and the guy, said we're
Speaker 2: doing an. Update you can't get on for another. Hour
Speaker 2: i'll call you when you can get. On so a
Speaker 2: few minutes go, by an hour goes, by and the
Speaker 2: guy Calls Jeffrey, young and it rings and rings and,
Speaker 2: rings and he calls back several. Times and what police
Speaker 2: now believe is that was the time When Jeffrey young
Speaker 2: was being.
Speaker 1: Assaulted the theory is that two people waited in the
Speaker 1: parking lot Where JEFFREY'S bmw was parked and attacked him
Speaker 1: sometime around ten. Pm they hit.
Speaker 2: Him on the head with a blunt, object cracking his
Speaker 2: skull in five. Places they picked him, Up they walked
Speaker 2: to THE, bmw they had the, Keys they opened the,
Speaker 2: trunk they put him in THE, bmw slammed the, door
Speaker 2: and then they. Drive they drive across The Trinity river
Speaker 2: Into West ellis and at some point Somehow Jeffrey young
Speaker 2: there was a little latch in the trunk And Jeffrey
Speaker 2: young managed to get out and fall On Puget, street
Speaker 2: and the perpetrators looked, back saw he was on the, street,
Speaker 2: panicked drove THE bmw into the alley, nearby and then ran.
Speaker 1: Away they got away with His sako, watch wedding, ring
Speaker 1: and PORTABLE tv radio and they Left Jeffrey young dying
Speaker 1: on the.
Speaker 2: Street and there he lay, shaking you, know, bleeding as
Speaker 2: a small crowd gathered around.
Speaker 1: Him when the paramedics, Arrived Jeffrey young was still. Alive
Speaker 1: they rushed him to the hospital and police questioned a few,
Speaker 1: witnesses thinking they were just investigating a. Robbery barb says
Speaker 1: they got a description of someone who looked like a
Speaker 1: guy Named Van Mitchell.
Speaker 2: Spencer, unfortunately they didn't get any names or phone, numbers
Speaker 2: so they could never go back and find them as.
Speaker 2: Witnesses then the case took a. Turn Jeffrey young succumbed
Speaker 2: to his injuries and died in the hospital early the next,
Speaker 2: morning and shortly after a powerful man Named Ross perrot
Speaker 2: stepped in to. Help Ross preaux at that point was
Speaker 2: probably one of the most influential people In. Texas he
Speaker 2: was self made billionaire about to run for president.
Speaker 3: Good After nan.
Speaker 5: The volunteers in all fifty states have asked Made iran
Speaker 5: as candidate For priends of The United, states.
Speaker 2: And one of his top executives was the father of the.
Speaker 2: Victim and, suddenly you, know this robbery investigation became a murder.
Speaker 1: Investigation perrot offered a twenty five one thousand dollars reward
Speaker 1: for any information leading to the arrest and indictment of
Speaker 1: the killer or, killers.
Speaker 2: And people started coming out.
Speaker 1: Of the, woodwork people like forty two year Old Gladys.
Speaker 1: Oliver she'd originally told police she hadn't seen, anything but
Speaker 1: a few days later she called Crime, stoppers an organization
Speaker 1: that offers rewards for information that leads to an. Arrest
Speaker 1: oliver told them that from her bedroom window that, night
Speaker 1: she'd seen two black men she knew from the. Neighborhood
Speaker 1: one was a shorter man by the name Of Robert,
Speaker 1: mitchell the other was an acquaintance of her, Son's Benjamin.
Speaker 2: Spencer she suggested that they talked to a couple of
Speaker 2: other people and gave the name Of Jimmy.
Speaker 1: Cotton Jimmy cotton described the same sequence of events As
Speaker 1: Gladys oliver, did but added that he'd Seen ben jump
Speaker 1: over a fence and get into a red. Thunderbird Jesse
Speaker 1: brisino was the lead, detective and just four days After
Speaker 1: Jeffrey young's, killing based on eyewitness testimony, Alone brisino was
Speaker 1: convinced he had his. Purpse On march twenty, sixth nineteen eighty,
Speaker 1: Seven Ben spencer was home with a headache while waiting
Speaker 1: for his Friend charles to swing. By he figured he'd
Speaker 1: take some tyle and all and nap off the.
Speaker 4: MIGRAINE i hear this beating on the, door and WHEN
Speaker 4: i wake, UP i noticed on the clock it's two,
Speaker 4: thirty SO i, figured, oh this must Be. Charles but
Speaker 4: on the way to the front, DOOR i could see
Speaker 4: out the front window that there was police cars out.
Speaker 1: Front ben opens the door and sees an officer who, asks.
Speaker 3: Do you have ANY?
Speaker 4: ID i said, Sure i'll put reach in my, pocket
Speaker 4: put out my hand in MY. Id he, said, turn
Speaker 4: turn and put your hands on the will you under?
Speaker 4: WRIST i, say under?
Speaker 3: Rest for?
Speaker 4: What so he puts me in the car and turns
Speaker 4: over and looks over the back of the seat and he,
Speaker 4: said you know the white guy they found the street
Speaker 4: the other? DAY i, SAID i heard about. It he,
Speaker 4: said that's what you're under the rest for his. MURDER i, said,
Speaker 4: man you're making a.
Speaker 1: Mistake then was, shocked but he figured he'd cooperate and
Speaker 1: get this all sorted.
Speaker 4: Out and So i'm thinking that the truth is going to,
Speaker 4: prevail And i'm telling him WHAT i had did that.
Speaker 4: DAY i, mean from morning to, Night i'm telling him
Speaker 4: WHAT i. Did of, COURSE i guess it fell on
Speaker 4: deaf ears BECAUSE i was arrested and charged with this.
Speaker 1: Crime so you never left jail that. Day do you
Speaker 1: remember the first time you spoke To deborah after you were.
Speaker 3: ARRESTING i Called deborah that evening.
Speaker 4: To let her KNOW i was in, Jail and of
Speaker 4: course my main concern was telling her THAT i didn't
Speaker 4: commit this, offense AND i need to tell you something
Speaker 4: because you're.
Speaker 3: Going to find.
Speaker 4: Out and SO i began to tell her About. CHRISTY i,
Speaker 4: said you, KNOW i want to be the one to
Speaker 4: tell you that because you're going to find, out because
Speaker 4: that's WHY i was with the night this offense.
Speaker 1: Happened what are the chances that you get arrested for
Speaker 1: something you didn't do on a night that you have an,
Speaker 1: alibi but it's for something not. Great also right.
Speaker 4: At that, time my marriage was only two months, oh
Speaker 4: AND i definitely wasn't SOMETHING i wanted to have to
Speaker 4: share with her or.
Speaker 1: Tell, Her but he had to if he was going
Speaker 1: to get out of, this he had to give an,
Speaker 1: alibi and his alibi Was. Christie then figured the police
Speaker 1: would do their, job talk To, christy and everything would
Speaker 1: be squared.
Speaker 4: Away for some, reason they just ignored the fact That
Speaker 4: christy AND i were. Together it didn't fit into their
Speaker 4: scheme of what they believe. Happened so of course she
Speaker 4: was ignored and no one wanted.
Speaker 2: Her and by this investigation was a mess from start to.
Speaker 2: Finish they didn't preserve the crime too or take.
Speaker 1: Photos they just drove the car. Off police Took Jeffrey
Speaker 1: YOUNG'S bmw to the police, lot but that morning.
Speaker 2: They opened the police lot up to people who wanted
Speaker 2: to buy abandoned. Cars oh my, gosh and so anyone
Speaker 2: could have touched that.
Speaker 1: Car plus it had rained before they can do any thorough.
Speaker 1: Fingerprinting they were able to recover some finger and palm,
Speaker 1: prints but none Matched ben Or Robert.
Speaker 2: MITCHELL i don't know what they were, thinking. Honestly and
Speaker 2: then the minute they Got Gladys oliver and a couple
Speaker 2: of people to say they Saw Ben. Spencer essentially the investigation.
Speaker 1: Stopped that was. It twenty two year Old Ben, spencer
Speaker 1: as soon to be, father with no history of violent,
Speaker 1: crime was charged with. Murder he went to trial just months,
Speaker 1: later On october twenty, sixth nineteen eighty. Seven ben And
Speaker 1: Robert mitchell were tried. Separately the prosecutor In ben's case
Speaker 1: Was Jeffrey. Hines since no evidence was found in the,
Speaker 1: killing he relied on the witness testimony. Alone Gladys oliver
Speaker 1: And Jimmy cotton stuck to their, stories and the prosecution
Speaker 1: bolstered their case with another star, witness a jailhouse snitch
Speaker 1: Named Danny, edwards who swore That ben told him he
Speaker 1: had Killed. Jeffrey ben's, Attorney Frank, jackson relied almost entirely
Speaker 1: On ben's alibi On, christy but the police tried to discredit.
Speaker 1: Her they had previously shown her a picture which she
Speaker 1: did not identify As.
Speaker 4: Ben she says that the picture they showed her did
Speaker 4: not look like. Me she said it was a picture
Speaker 4: that looked like it was taken real, close where you
Speaker 4: couldn't really make out who the person was because it
Speaker 4: was so taken so close.
Speaker 1: What the picture, Was, YES.
Speaker 3: I don't and we have not been able to find the.
Speaker 2: PICTURE i went and talked To christie about it and she,
Speaker 2: SAID i KNOW i was With ben that.
Speaker 3: NIGHT i mean he.
Speaker 2: Couldn't the math is such that he could not have
Speaker 2: gone and Killed Jeffrey young and come back and spend
Speaker 2: any time with.
Speaker 1: Me but the jury didn't believe. Her ben was convicted
Speaker 1: and later sentenced to thirty five years for the murder
Speaker 1: Of Jeffrey, young but that conviction would be thrown.
Speaker 4: Out we can Thank Bruce, anton who was the co
Speaker 4: chair with my attorney at the, Time Frank, jackson who
Speaker 4: discovered that within The states file that they had hidden
Speaker 4: the fact that Gladys oliver had called Crime stop and
Speaker 4: also had received five hundred and eighty Dollars at the, time.
Speaker 1: The judge Granted ben a new, trial believing the jury
Speaker 1: should have known that Gladys oliver had claimed for ward.
Speaker 1: Money but before that trial took, place the prosecution offered
Speaker 1: a deal for twenty years on a lesser, charge with
Speaker 1: parole eligibility in less than five. Years But ben said.
Speaker 4: NO i, said, well whatever they're going to, do they're
Speaker 4: going to have to do, it Because i'm not going
Speaker 4: to plead givety to SOMETHING i didn't.
Speaker 1: Do he was adamant that life on parole for a
Speaker 1: crime he hadn't done wouldn't be true.
Speaker 4: Freedom IF i accepted the plea, offer went to prison may,
Speaker 4: PAROLE i would HAVE x on my.
Speaker 3: Back.
Speaker 4: NOW i felt that every time that they couldn't solve
Speaker 4: a crime and they needed to, SUSPECT i would become the.
Speaker 1: Escapegoat ben says he refused to become polices go to
Speaker 1: suspect every time they had an unsolved. Crime so he
Speaker 1: went to his second, trial charged with a lesser, offense aggravated.
Speaker 1: Robbery this time the prosecutor Was Andy.
Speaker 2: Beach WHEN i first Met Andy beach in twenty, seventeen he,
Speaker 2: said you, Know Gladys oliver was basically the best Witness
Speaker 2: i've ever put on the stand.
Speaker 5: In the twenty five YEARS i tried criminal. Cases she
Speaker 5: was one of the top three or four eyewitnesses of all.
Speaker 5: Time just her physical pressence and her ability to clearly
Speaker 5: answer questions and to stand up to cross examination get
Speaker 5: carried the day for.
Speaker 3: Us there's no.
Speaker 2: Question he described how she kind of rolled in in a,
Speaker 2: wheelchair was eye level with the, jury had a little
Speaker 2: blanket over her, lap that she was.
Speaker 5: Riveting she was very confident in what she had seen
Speaker 5: and her ability to communicate that to a, jury.
Speaker 2: And she just took no guph From ben's.
Speaker 5: Lawyer there's no question That Gladys oliver's testimony Convicted Ben.
Speaker 1: Spencer Danny, edwards the snitch was also key this. Time
Speaker 1: he added That ben had told him his only regret
Speaker 1: was that he hadn't finished the job At young's. Office he,
Speaker 1: Said ben told, him, QUOTE i should have killed bitch
Speaker 1: right then and. There and Then ben took the. Stand
Speaker 1: So i'm on the stand and.
Speaker 4: The prosecutor he's doing his cross, examination and he was,
Speaker 4: like when you hold up your hands for, me AND
Speaker 4: i hold up my hands And i've got them my
Speaker 4: fingers played.
Speaker 1: Out beach Asked ben to hold his hands. Up Remember
Speaker 1: ben is six foot four with large hands to.
Speaker 4: MATCH i can't remember exact, words but he went to
Speaker 4: describe HOW i could have used my hands to Grab
Speaker 4: Jeffrey young by his throat and choke.
Speaker 2: Him you just had a feeling that he wanted to
Speaker 2: evoke in the midge of almost a really POWERFUL i,
Speaker 2: Mean i'm gonna be offensive, here but like an, ape,
Speaker 2: right like a really, powerful almost monster with these huge,
Speaker 2: hands and those hands could just snap a, neck, right that.
Speaker 2: Was and the thing is that was. Seecial that got
Speaker 2: across BECAUSE i talked to the jury foreman and he remembers,
Speaker 2: that and he remembers, thinking, wow, wow no matter, what
Speaker 2: that guy could have Killed Jeffrey, young no matter, how
Speaker 2: look at those. Hands so it worked.
Speaker 1: Again then was, convicted but this time of aggravated robbery
Speaker 1: and sentenced to life in. Prison he remembers the night
Speaker 1: of the conviction and, sentencing sitting in a cold.
Speaker 4: Cell i've been convicted and sentenced to, life AND i
Speaker 4: just couldn't see the end of. THAT i was, like,
Speaker 4: man the world will end BEFORE i have a sea.
Speaker 4: Freedom and SO i literally wanted to. DIE i literally
Speaker 4: wanted to take my own life that, night AND i
Speaker 4: thought about taking my tie and hanging myself in that.
Speaker 4: Cell but my, faith in my, belief was IF i
Speaker 4: commit the ultimate sin of taking my, LIFE i can't
Speaker 4: RepA i can't turn away from. That SO i felt
Speaker 4: that IF i was to commit, SUICIDE i would have
Speaker 4: gone to. Hell so that thought was the only thing
Speaker 4: kept me from hanging myself in that sale that.
Speaker 1: Night and over the, Years ben kept his. Faith how
Speaker 1: many times did you read The bible in?
Speaker 3: PRISON i couldn't.
Speaker 4: COUNT i would say at least probably twenty or thirty
Speaker 4: times from front to. BACK i, MEAN i didn't think
Speaker 4: anybody could really read The, bible and much LESS i
Speaker 4: get an understanding of. It but the MORE i rated,
Speaker 4: it AND i say, read BUT i should really, say
Speaker 4: the MORE i studied, it the more ENLIGHTENMENT i.
Speaker 1: Received part of that enlightenment was realizing That deborah was
Speaker 1: on the outside suffering.
Speaker 4: TOO i just wanted her to go on with her
Speaker 4: life and hopefully find someone that would be as good
Speaker 4: to her AS i wanted to.
Speaker 1: Be around nineteen ninety four or, Five deborah And ben got,
Speaker 1: divorced But deborah never Abandoned, ben and.
Speaker 2: He continued just being in love with, her and she
Speaker 2: was his most faithful.
Speaker 1: Friend in two thousand and, Four ben filed post conviction
Speaker 1: relief A Habeas. Corpus with the help Of jim McCluskey
Speaker 1: And Centurion, ministries they Reinvestigated ben's, case which included trying
Speaker 1: to figure out what the eyewitnesses could have actually seen
Speaker 1: in the dark that night in nineteen eighty.
Speaker 2: Seven What ben's legal team wanted to do was to
Speaker 2: show how hard it would be would have been to
Speaker 2: identify anyone on that. Night it was ten o'clock at,
Speaker 2: night it was, cloudy very few, lights and the witnesses
Speaker 2: were all standing quite a distance. Away so what they
Speaker 2: did is, say got a forensic optomologist and brought him
Speaker 2: to the crime scene on a similar night In march
Speaker 2: a few years, obviously a few years, later twenty years,
Speaker 2: later and he was able to measure the, distances and
Speaker 2: what he knew from science is that in those conditions of,
Speaker 2: lighting a person could not be further away than twenty
Speaker 2: five feet to be able to identify a person's. Face
Speaker 2: and all of those people were, alike ninety three feet
Speaker 2: one hundred and thirteen feet two hundred and eighty feet.
Speaker 2: Away there is absolutely no way that those people could
Speaker 2: have identified even their.
Speaker 1: Brother ben's defense team also interviewed dozens of witnesses poking
Speaker 1: holes in the police, investigation and they pointed to a
Speaker 1: more plausible, suspect Though i'll tell you more about that,
Speaker 1: Later barb says century ministries even Invited Alan ledbetter to the.
Speaker 1: Hearing he was the foreman of the jury that Convicted
Speaker 1: ben in his second. Trial And ledbetter went and.
Speaker 2: It was racially. Divided one side of the room all,
Speaker 2: white all the friends Of Jeffrey, young the people who
Speaker 2: worked For Ross, brow that kind of, thing and Behind
Speaker 2: ben all, black, right all Of ben's friends and family
Speaker 2: and all. That And Alan ledbetter started in the white.
Speaker 3: Section is he a white? Guy he's a white.
Speaker 2: Guy he started in the white, section and after hearing,
Speaker 2: evidence he moved over to the black, section and it
Speaker 2: was the only white face in the black. Section and
Speaker 2: he became really convinced that they had done a terrible.
Speaker 2: Injustice in, fact WHEN i interviewed, him he began to.
Speaker 2: Cry he, SAID i just THINK i have such a
Speaker 2: role in, this and ALL i can think of is
Speaker 2: all those YEARS i took away From.
Speaker 1: Ben jim McCloskey presented all of this evidence in two
Speaker 1: thousand and seven To Judge Rick. Magnus the judge ruled
Speaker 1: that he was actually.
Speaker 2: Innocent ben was actually. Innocent he could not Release.
Speaker 1: Ben even Though Judge magnus ruled That ben deserved a new,
Speaker 1: trial quote on the grounds of actual. Innocence The court
Speaker 1: Of Criminal appeals In texas still had to, approve and
Speaker 1: the judges Denied.
Speaker 2: Ben here's a case where a guy was declared innocent
Speaker 2: and he still couldn't get, Out, like what does it
Speaker 2: take to get?
Speaker 1: Out barb wanted to, know so she LEFT dc and
Speaker 1: went To dallas with her. Microphone thank you so.
Speaker 2: Much how are you doing?
Speaker 3: Today pretty? Good?
Speaker 2: Yeah good. Good WHEN i Met ben a little, bit
Speaker 2: what struck me was how gentle he was and how soft.
Speaker 4: Spoken my name Is Benjamin John. Spencer my number is
Speaker 4: forty thirty seven.
Speaker 2: Thirteen there was no pushing, me, like you, Know i'm,
Speaker 2: Innocent you've got to get me out of. Here there
Speaker 2: was none of. That it was just explaining where he.
Speaker 3: Was i'm just at a point WHERE i Just i'm still,
Speaker 3: hopeful but at the same, time it's just Like i'm
Speaker 3: stuck in the.
Speaker 2: System prisonally for him was Not it wasn't. Living it
Speaker 2: was just.
Speaker 3: Existing, yeah it's a lot of THINGS i could be.
Speaker 3: Doing my parents are getting older and more.
Speaker 4: FRAGILE i could be doing things for. THEM i could
Speaker 4: be doing a lot of positive things for a lot of.
Speaker 4: People i'm not the monster that they've tried to make
Speaker 4: me out to.
Speaker 1: Be barb was determined to find out what happened that
Speaker 1: night in nineteen eighty. Seven did this man sitting in front.
Speaker 5: Of her do?
Speaker 1: It barb teamed up with private Investigator Darryl parker and
Speaker 1: set out to do some real shoe leather.
Speaker 3: Reporting her And Daryl parker. TOGETHER i, mean that was
Speaker 3: a duo, that you, know could only have been put
Speaker 3: together By, god and an odd.
Speaker 1: Duo barb is this tiny. Lady although she's a, veteran
Speaker 1: no nonsense, reporter she comes across as sweet and. Adorable
Speaker 1: her Sidekick darryl has the neck of a. Linebacker he
Speaker 1: looks like a former cop and, marine which he. Is
Speaker 1: and together they door knocked Around.
Speaker 2: Dallas we went to every single. House i'll just tell
Speaker 2: you this one. Story this is WHY i had so much.
Speaker 2: Fun we're standing in front of this. Apartment darryl is
Speaker 2: about to, knock and he looks over and he sees
Speaker 2: That i'm standing directly in front of the. Door and
Speaker 2: he reaches over and he gently takes me by the
Speaker 2: shoulders and moves me over like two feet and he.
Speaker 2: Goes sometimes they shoot through the. Door NOW i had been.
Speaker 2: Washing i'd been a reporter for like thirty five. Years
Speaker 2: i'd never considered that someone might shoot. Me huh through the.
Speaker 1: Door no one got, shot and they were able to
Speaker 1: track Down Jimmy, cotton the, witness who added that he'd
Speaker 1: Seen ben running From Jeffrey young's car that night from
Speaker 1: ninety three feet. AWAY i had.
Speaker 2: Kind of plotted out this really careful interview journey, right
Speaker 2: not to spook, him, right just start gently and all of. That, like,
Speaker 2: YEAH i didn't have to do any of. That it's
Speaker 2: like it was a. Confessional it was like he'd been
Speaker 2: waiting for thirty years to blurt. OUT i don't know
Speaker 2: IF i saw him or. NOT i didn't see his.
Speaker 2: FACE i just saw someone running.
Speaker 3: Away he was.
Speaker 2: TALL i thought it might be Like, ben but you,
Speaker 2: know and the police told me that they were Investigating.
Speaker 2: Ben so the police gave him that.
Speaker 1: Information, remember the cops had talked To cotton at the
Speaker 1: suggestion Of Gladys, oliver the prosecution star.
Speaker 2: Witness it all came out that Gladys oliver had told,
Speaker 2: him just follow my, lead just say WHAT i, Say
Speaker 2: just say it Was, Ben and that all came.
Speaker 1: Out it was known from the first trial That gladys
Speaker 1: was interested in the reward. Money, however now it was
Speaker 1: clear That Jimmy cotton also had motive to. Lie it's
Speaker 1: unclear If cotton ever received any. Money here he is
Speaker 1: on the Podcast Radio atlantic Telling barb how he feels
Speaker 1: About ben's conviction decades. LATER i feel.
Speaker 3: Bad i'll. HOPE i want them to get, OUT i really.
Speaker 3: Do that's a long time to be in prison for
Speaker 3: something you didn't.
Speaker 2: Do and the other person we tracked down was the jailhouse,
Speaker 2: Snitch Danny, edwards and we're, like, So, danny Did Ben
Speaker 2: spencer ever confess to. You, no he didn't confess to.
Speaker 2: Me he said they said he did. It he didn't
Speaker 2: even know the. Guy he didn't even go over. There,
Speaker 2: NO i didn't confess to.
Speaker 1: Me danny Told barb that the police told him That
Speaker 1: ben Said danny did. It So dan and he Said
Speaker 1: ben did.
Speaker 2: It and then he says to, me you, know that's
Speaker 2: the way the game is played in. Prison that's in.
Speaker 3: Jail in, prison the better, liar better fighter.
Speaker 1: Wing Here's edwards talking To barb for the Podcast Radio,
Speaker 1: atlantic and.
Speaker 3: They were forcing us saying you kidded. Him he's saying
Speaker 3: you kid. Him you know that's. Different but that shit
Speaker 3: though with.
Speaker 2: CAN i ask, you do you Think Ben spencer's?
Speaker 3: Innocent, yeah he didn't do.
Speaker 4: It in my, heart he didn't do, it you, know
Speaker 4: just he lied on me AND i lied on.
Speaker 3: Him that's what it, is what it, is you.
Speaker 2: Know Danny edwards was facing a twenty five year prison
Speaker 2: sentence for arson aggravated robbery and he walked out two
Speaker 2: months after he testified Against. Ben so he was in
Speaker 2: prison for better or he was in jail for about a.
Speaker 1: Year do you think he felt guilty about? It?
Speaker 2: Yes oh. Yeah so we're sitting they were kind of
Speaker 2: wrapping up the interview and we're sitting outside and he, goes,
Speaker 2: so how Is ben? Anyway AND i, Said, Danny ben's in.
Speaker 2: Prison he, goes, OH i thought he was. OUT i said,
Speaker 2: no he's been imprisoned for thirty. Years And daryl, says,
Speaker 2: so how does that make you? Feel And danny, says.
Speaker 1: Like. Shit barb even built a rapport With Andy, beach
Speaker 1: the prosecutor who got a conviction At ben's second. Trial
Speaker 1: so the last.
Speaker 2: TIME i talked to him for sitting in the jury
Speaker 2: room And i'm not even seated, yet And i've turned
Speaker 2: out the tape, recorder not even seated. Yet and he,
Speaker 2: goes you, KNOW i have serious doubts About Ben spencer's.
Speaker 1: Guilt but even With beach's doubts And barb's, Reporting Ben
Speaker 1: spencer remained in. Prison getting him, Out barb, says would
Speaker 1: take some luck and new district. Attorney In november twenty,
Speaker 1: Eighteen John, cruseau a Progressive Black, democrat was now elected
Speaker 1: as The District attorney Of Dallas. County barb, says now
Speaker 1: there was.
Speaker 2: Hope the four previous das had refused to look at his.
Speaker 2: Case they, said, no it's open and. Shut and so
Speaker 2: a NEW da comes, along and because we had gotten
Speaker 2: new evidence that he could consider since a, trial he
Speaker 2: was open minded and he put his really good prosecutor
Speaker 2: on it to investigate.
Speaker 1: It his conviction review, unit headed By Cynthia, garza started
Speaker 1: reviewing the. Case they Had barb's reporting and all the
Speaker 1: evidence previously compiled By Centurion, ministries and they also uncovered
Speaker 1: more evidence that the prosecution's key, Witness Gladys oliver. Lied
Speaker 1: he received five thousand to ten thousand dollars in reward
Speaker 1: money on top of the money she got from crime,
Speaker 1: stoppers and she had lied about that in the second
Speaker 1: trial to Investigator Cynthia garza believed the prosecution knew about
Speaker 1: the incentive to, lie which qualifies as A brady. Violation
Speaker 1: so with all this evidence pointing Towards ben's, Innocence barb started,
Speaker 1: thinking If Ben spencer didn't do, this who.
Speaker 2: Did in eighty, seven right around the time of The
Speaker 2: Jeffrey young, killing there was a man Named Michael hubbard
Speaker 2: who was about the same age as As, ben lived
Speaker 2: In West.
Speaker 1: Dallas hubbard was a known criminal who worked with two
Speaker 1: friends to stick up and rob. Restaurants the night of
Speaker 1: Jeff young's, Assault Michael hubbard spoke to some friends at a.
Speaker 2: Park he had a really terrible coke. Habit he really
Speaker 2: needed money and his friends if they would come help
Speaker 2: them to rob a, restaurant and they're, like, no, man
Speaker 2: there are too many police around and we're not doing.
Speaker 2: That so he was, desperate so he goes off and
Speaker 2: he comes back a few hours later and he has
Speaker 2: A sakah watch in a wedding ring and a jam.
Speaker 1: Box hubbard asks his friend to help him sell, it
Speaker 1: so they. Do then they score drugs and get high
Speaker 1: with some other. Friends while they're getting, High michael tells
Speaker 1: them where the items came.
Speaker 2: From and after he said, this all four of them were,
Speaker 2: silent and they're, Like, michael you really Can't you can't
Speaker 2: tell anyone that you shouldn't have told this to. Us
Speaker 2: so what happened is a few months, later the two
Speaker 2: friends got kind of a conscience when they realized That
Speaker 2: ben And robert were going we're going to be tried for,
Speaker 2: this and they went to the, police and the police ignored.
Speaker 2: It they didn't even Interview Michael hubbard because they already
Speaker 2: Had Ben.
Speaker 1: Spencer hubbard wound up going to prison for a.
Speaker 2: Robbery he gets out around ninety two and he starts
Speaker 2: the spree of what are called The batman, assaults where
Speaker 2: he would wait outside of an office building with a
Speaker 2: high end car in, it right in the parking, lot
Speaker 2: and wait for the executive to come, out and then
Speaker 2: he would hit him over the head and take his
Speaker 2: jewelry and his, cash but not the credit, cards just
Speaker 2: the way it happened With Jeffrey. Young and he was
Speaker 2: finally convicted of These batman. Robberies ten people seriously hurt
Speaker 2: with the same very SAME. Mm so it's quite plausible
Speaker 2: That Michael hubbard The, batman actually Killed Jeffrey.
Speaker 1: Young in early twenty twenty, one The Dallas County District
Speaker 1: attorney Decided ben's conviction should be. Vacated, okay good, afternoon, everyone.
Speaker 3: That's.
Speaker 1: Good On march, twelfth twenty twenty, One ben stood in
Speaker 1: front Of Judge Layla Lawrence mays remotely because OF covid all,
Speaker 1: RIGHT i.
Speaker 2: Want everybody to know that we are live streaming on
Speaker 2: YouTube through the two eighty Third District courts.
Speaker 1: YouTube And Judge mays agreed to Release ben on his personal.
Speaker 2: Recognissance, so because of everything THAT i have, read because
Speaker 2: of WHAT i think is fair to Mister, SPENCER i
Speaker 2: have decided to go ahead and grant A pr.
Speaker 4: BOND i would, say within forty five minutes of this
Speaker 4: judge telling me she's going to release me on A pr,
Speaker 4: BOND i was walking out the front, door AND i
Speaker 4: MEAN i didn't expect it to happen that.
Speaker 3: FAST i happened so. QUICKLY a lot of.
Speaker 4: The jailers were even, saying, man that's the quickest Release
Speaker 4: i've ever.
Speaker 1: Seen barb was outside of the courthouse that, day live
Speaker 1: streaming the hearing with a crowd of, people including, strangers Supporting.
Speaker 1: Ben there was this.
Speaker 2: Cheer people didn't even Know, ben but like Because ben
Speaker 2: had become this symbol of both the kind of calcification
Speaker 2: of the, system but also one of those rare instances
Speaker 2: when can we broke?
Speaker 3: Through?
Speaker 2: Right and so people were cheering and we all everyone
Speaker 2: went rushing down to the outside of the jail to
Speaker 2: wait For ben to come. Out there were probably two
Speaker 2: hundred people in, there kind of talking excitedly and all of.
Speaker 2: That and from the end of the room it comes
Speaker 2: from around the. Corner ben And deborah appear and stop
Speaker 2: and they just look at this crowd of, people And
Speaker 2: deborah looks slightly freaked, out And ben looked really, happy
Speaker 2: and they walked like this royal couple, through you, know
Speaker 2: through the, crowds and everyone's like high Fiving ben and
Speaker 2: everyone's just.
Speaker 1: Thrilled deborah was right there next to. Him after all
Speaker 1: of these, YEARS i.
Speaker 2: Read through twenty five hundred pages of his letters to.
Speaker 1: Her letters he wrote To deborah from.
Speaker 2: Prison he's a really kind of very, smart, clinical like dispassionate.
Speaker 2: Person but when you read those, letters what you see
Speaker 2: is he was wildly in love with.
Speaker 1: Her ben And deborah got married again in twenty twenty.
Speaker 4: Two it would have been our thirty fifth wind. Anniversary
Speaker 4: the remarried on Her.
Speaker 1: Yeah ben looks back and reflects on everything that went.
Speaker 4: Down i've never harbored any ill will for, anyone not,
Speaker 4: then not. Now And i'm just a, kind loving person
Speaker 4: who believes who believed in the system at that. Time
Speaker 4: still believe the system has the potential to. Work but
Speaker 4: it requires us to keep an open, mind and we
Speaker 4: have to realize that just because a person is behind
Speaker 4: the table on the defense, end that that person is
Speaker 4: not guilty just because he's.
Speaker 1: There ben says he wants to help others like, him
Speaker 1: but mostly he's just happy to be a dad To Benjamin.
Speaker 1: Jr and husband to deb like he wanted all those years.
Speaker 4: AGO i Thank deborah and him for having my back
Speaker 4: fall those, years for loving me for those. Years it
Speaker 4: just means a lot to me to have them in
Speaker 4: my life now and hopefully to this life.
Speaker 1: Ends the day After ben got, Out barb went to
Speaker 1: see him at.
Speaker 2: Home it's beautiful spring, Day march, thirteenth and you hear,
Speaker 2: lawnmowers you hear kind of all the normal sounds of, spring,
Speaker 2: right you hear, birds you hear and this is stuff
Speaker 2: he hasn't heard for thirty four. Years AND i, Said,
Speaker 2: ben how does that? Feel and he, says it just feels.
Speaker 2: Normal feels like this is a LIFE i was supposed
Speaker 2: to be living and Now i'm living.
Speaker 4: It that's HOW i feel, normal still feels. NORMAL i
Speaker 4: have to recall the fact THAT i was. Incocerated, wow
Speaker 4: it's like the thirty four years THAT i did in
Speaker 4: prison just kind of, vanished and it's LIKE i woke
Speaker 4: up out of a coma and resume my life on that.
Speaker 1: Side after our, Interview Ben spencer was officially exonerated On
Speaker 1: august twenty ninth of this. Year thank you for listening
Speaker 1: To Wrongful conviction With Maggie. Freeling please support your local
Speaker 1: innocence organizations and go to the links in the episode
Speaker 1: description and see how you can. Help you'll also see
Speaker 1: a link To barb's book and her three part story
Speaker 1: For The. Atlantic thank you To barb for letting us
Speaker 1: use her, recordings and To Ethan goldman And Sam devaney
Speaker 1: At Anchor entertainment for the extra. Tape this episode was
Speaker 1: written by Me Maggie, freeling with story editing and sound
Speaker 1: designed by senior Producer Rebecca. Ibarra our producer Is Kathleen.
Speaker 1: Fink our researcher Is Hallie, dolce with mixing By Josh.
Speaker 1: Allen an additional production help By Jeff. Clyburn executive producers
Speaker 1: Are Jason, Flamm Jeff, kempler And Kevin. Wordis the music
Speaker 1: is by three TIME oscar nominated Composer Jay. Ralph make
Speaker 1: sure to follow us on all social media platforms At
Speaker 1: lava For good and At Wrongful. Conviction you can also
Speaker 1: follow me on all platforms At Maggie. Freeling Wrongful conviction
Speaker 1: With Maggie freeling is a production Of lava For Good
Speaker 1: podcasts in association With Signal Company number. ONE a note to,
Speaker 1: LISTENERS a previous version of this episode Named Faith johnson
Speaker 1: as the prosecutor In ben's first. Trial it was Actually Jeffrey.
Speaker 1: Hines