1 00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: In twenty seventeen, Barbara Bradley Haggerty was a veteran journalist 2 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: looking for a story, so she called one of her 3 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:10,560 Speaker 1: favorite sources, a guy named Jim McCluskey. 4 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 2: Jim McCluskey basically is a founder, the father of the 5 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 2: modern innocence movement. Back in eighty three, he started the 6 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 2: first organization that reinvestigated dubious convictions, way before the Innocence 7 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:27,319 Speaker 2: Project was even thought of. And so I called up 8 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 2: Jim one day and looking for a story for The Atlantic, 9 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 2: And I said, Jim, you've gotten like sixty five people 10 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 2: out of prison. What's the story that haunts you? What 11 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 2: keeps you up at night? And Jim said, oh, well, 12 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 2: that's easy. Ben Spencer's story. There's not a day that 13 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 2: goes by that I don't think about Ben. 14 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: Ben Spencer was a young man who decades before, was 15 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: convicted of a homicide. He always maintained he did not commit. 16 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: Jim McCluskey and his team investigated Ben's case in the 17 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: early two thousands. They put in hundreds of hours of 18 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: work to find out if Ben was telling the truth. 19 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: So Barb decided she was going to do the same. 20 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 2: I just kind of put one foot in front of 21 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 2: the other, just like everyone else, and just followed the 22 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 2: next lead and kind of put little sands of evidence 23 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 2: in a little pile, and at some point it was 24 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 2: a pretty big mound, you know, it was. It was 25 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 2: pretty compelling. 26 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: Do you find yourself more than just a journalist? 27 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 3: Now? 28 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: Do you think you're an activist? 29 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 2: You know? I don't think, Okay, how do I put this? 30 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 2: I'm an activist for Ben because I think he's innocent 31 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 2: and I think the truth does need to come out. 32 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: After years of research and door knocking, Barb feels like 33 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: she got to the truth of the matter. 34 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 2: This guy could not have killed someone in cold blood. 35 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 1: And Barb thinks she knows who did, but it wasn't Ben. 36 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 4: My name is Benjamin Spencer. I'm a native of Dallas, 37 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:18,399 Speaker 4: and I was wrongfully incarcerated for thirty four years. 38 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:23,799 Speaker 1: This is wrongful conviction with Maggie Freeling today, Ben Spencer. 39 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 1: Ben Spencer was born December twentieth, nineteen sixty four, to 40 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: Benjamin and Lucille Spencer in Dallas, Texas. He's one of 41 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 1: five kids, right in the middle, and he grew up 42 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: in a religious and strict household. 43 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 4: My mother She was the disciplinarian in the family, and 44 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 4: so if we ever did something like didn't clean the 45 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 4: house like we was posed to, my dad would always 46 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 4: tell us he's going to tell our mom if we 47 00:02:57,320 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 4: didn't do it and we didn't want to. 48 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 3: Uh, I guess, be victims of her rat. 49 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: What would that look like? 50 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:09,119 Speaker 3: Ooh terrible. We used to get whoopings. 51 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 4: I mean, wasn't a such thing as punishment or standing 52 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 4: in the corner or you don't get to. 53 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 3: Go outside stuff. 54 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 4: You would probably get whooped and not get to go outside. 55 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 1: So yeah, see, you guys were all pretty in line, 56 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: good kids. Still, Ben was a playful kid. 57 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 4: I was just a middle child, and I guess I 58 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 4: was the one that always got into stuff. 59 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 1: I guess, but like, what does that mean? What kind 60 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: of stuff? 61 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 4: I've never watched Mary Poppins, but I remember the scene 62 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 4: where she would come down with the umbrella. So I 63 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 4: would get to the highest point of our garage and 64 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 4: jump off with the umbrella one time and bust my head, 65 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 4: you know, stuff Like I was. 66 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: Adventurous like that, and he was curious. 67 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 4: I used to like to know how things operated, like 68 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 4: if I got a toy or car or something, I 69 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 4: was always interested and curious as to how it was 70 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 4: put together, so I would take. 71 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 3: A loose and put it back together. 72 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: He was handy, and into his teens, Ben put those 73 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: skills to work at a cabinet factory, making five dollars 74 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 1: an hour. 75 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 4: I put in a lot of overtime, so Wednesday, around 76 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 4: about eleven o'clock, I would already have forty hours in. 77 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: And Ben liked spending that overtime money on nice clothes. 78 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 4: A Ralph Lawn, Polo, Georgia Omiani, stuff like that. So 79 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 4: I used to like to dress nice. 80 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: He liked shopping at Neiman Marcus. 81 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 4: And my moms used to get on me about the 82 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 4: money I would spend on one shirt. She was like, 83 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:36,039 Speaker 4: you could buy several outfits for what you pay for 84 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:37,720 Speaker 4: that one shirt. I'm like, well, whose money is this 85 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 4: miney yours? 86 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:40,599 Speaker 1: Ben says he'd bring a change of clothes to the 87 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:44,280 Speaker 1: club just in case anyone else had the same shirt on. 88 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:47,720 Speaker 1: Decades later, sitting in front of me, I can tell 89 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:51,599 Speaker 1: you this man is still a fashionista. He's soft spoken, 90 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: but his looks do the talking. He's wearing a plaid 91 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:57,280 Speaker 1: suit in dark grays and. 92 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 3: Purples, white heel figure shirt and. 93 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:03,839 Speaker 1: The tie a paisley tie with hints of bronze and 94 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 1: a gold Michael Kore's watch on his left wrist. Did 95 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 1: you pick this up? 96 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 3: I did? 97 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 1: And on top of style. Ben Spencer is tall six', 98 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: four dark and, handsome and one day in nineteen eighty, 99 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:19,359 Speaker 1: three while he was out for some pizza with, Friends 100 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:22,719 Speaker 1: ben's good looks caught the attention of a. 101 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 4: Girl i'm sitting and eating a piece of waiting on my, 102 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 4: friend and this girl walks over to the table and 103 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 4: she tells me that her friend likes me and she 104 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 4: wants you to have a. 105 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 1: Number that friend Was Deborah child's also tall and pretty and. 106 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 4: GOOD i used to smoke, WEED i used to Drink 107 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 4: and one of the THINGS i liked About deborah she 108 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:49,919 Speaker 4: wasn't doing any of the THINGS i was. 109 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:51,359 Speaker 3: Doing she came from a Good. 110 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 4: And what's strange is we grew up around the corner 111 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 4: from each, OTHER i mean literally less maybe a block 112 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 4: away from each, other and we had never met, wow 113 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 4: up until we was eighteen years. 114 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: Old she Was ben's first real, girlfriend and she'd soon 115 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 1: become the mother of his. Child and what did your 116 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: mom think about the. Pregnancy, oh she was. 117 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 3: Excited, yeah my mother really Liked deborah a. 118 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 4: Lot my mother didn't allow you to have a girlfriend 119 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 4: or boyfriend living in her house. 120 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 3: While you weren't. Married And deborah was the. 121 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 4: First, Actually deborah AND i are the only two who 122 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 4: got away with. 123 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 3: That my oldest brother didn't get away with. 124 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 4: It my oldest, sister younger, sister youngest, brother none of 125 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:44,040 Speaker 4: them got away with, that but we. 126 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: Did and soon, after at twenty two years, old he 127 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: Asked deborah's dad for her hand in. 128 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 4: Marriage her dad used to be at this garage all 129 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 4: the time with this guy who fixed, cars and SO 130 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:59,479 Speaker 4: i went up there AND i was, like, ms, CHILD 131 00:06:59,520 --> 00:06:59,840 Speaker 4: i talk to. 132 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:02,040 Speaker 3: You he was, like, yeah what is it. 133 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 4: BEING i was, like you, KNOW i would like to 134 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:07,599 Speaker 4: marry your, daughter you, know if you would give me. 135 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 4: Permission and he was, like, oh of, course being, sure you. 136 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 3: Can marry my, daughter no. 137 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: Question. 138 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 4: Yeah he was, like you're gonna take care of, him? 139 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 4: RIGHT i, said, yes, Sir i'm going to take care of. 140 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 4: Him and SO i promised HIM i will take care of. 141 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: Him But ben wouldn't be able to keep his. 142 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 4: Promise and that's one of the most unfortunate things, is 143 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 4: we got, married and of COURSE i wasn't able to 144 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 4: fulfill WHAT i had told HIM i would. 145 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 1: Do just two months after the, wedding their lives came crumbling. 146 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: Down march twenty, second nineteen eighty seven started normal For Ben. 147 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: Spencer what do you remember that? 148 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 3: Day pretty much the whole, day the entire. 149 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 1: Day early in the, day he And deborah visited, family 150 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 1: like they did every. Weekend that was. 151 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 4: Our routine For saturdays And. Sundays her mother AND i 152 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 4: were Playing domino's and, CARDS i think it was. 153 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 1: Cards and like he often, Did ben Teased deborah's older, Sister. 154 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 3: Sissy sis AND i had this relationship where we would tease. 155 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: Each, other but this Time ben may have taken it 156 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 1: too far And deborah wasn't having. 157 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 4: It deborah immediately just raised off the floor like she 158 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 4: had springs on and she was, Like i'm ready to, 159 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 4: go And i'm, like you ready to? Go she was, like, 160 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 4: Yeah i'm ready to. Go AND i could tell she's 161 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 4: upset about. SOMETHING i don't know what she's upset, about 162 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 4: but she's. Upset and so she was, like you need 163 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 4: to come home before you get. Left and so we 164 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 4: get halfway home And she was, like you didn't have 165 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 4: to say that to. 166 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 3: HER i was, like that's what you're upset. ABOUT i, 167 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 3: said you, Know i'd be teasing playing With. 168 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: Sissy But deborah was, mad and after they got, Home 169 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 1: ben decided to let her cool, off so we left 170 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 1: the house In deborah's Red thunderbird and went to see some. 171 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: Friends ben says it was still early in the afternoon 172 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: and he hung out all day playing chess and. Cards 173 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 1: then in the, Evening ben attempted to make his way 174 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 1: home THAT. 175 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 3: I had stopped and got some chicken from Both, deborah but. 176 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 1: His plans to go home got derailed when he ran 177 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: into some, friends including a track star and high school 178 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 1: senior Named. Christy christy had her eyes set On, ben 179 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:26,199 Speaker 1: tall and, handsome And ben welcomed the attention From, christy 180 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 1: so they hung out all evening and eventually got in 181 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: the Red thunderbird and drove to a nearby, park where 182 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,319 Speaker 1: they stayed until after, midnight close to. 183 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 4: One, o'clock AND i noticed the time AND i was, like, 184 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 4: well MAYBE i should take you. HOME i got to 185 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 4: get up in the morning take my wife to, work 186 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 4: and she, said, well, YEAH i gotta go to school 187 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 4: for practice in the morning because he ran, track. 188 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:52,680 Speaker 1: So he went home and that was. That ben says 189 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 1: he'd been faithful To deborah up until that. Point he 190 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 1: says it was a one night. Stand in the heat 191 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 1: of the, argument he'd have to work up the courage 192 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 1: to Tell, deborah And ben went to, bed not knowing 193 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: that his problems would soon go far beyond cheating on his. 194 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: Wife the next, Day ben was on his way to 195 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 1: work when a friend stopped him and. 196 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 3: He was, like, man did you hear about what happened last? 197 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:20,719 Speaker 3: NIGHT i was, Like, noah what's? 198 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 4: That he, Said, man it's police everywhere in the neighborhood last. 199 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 4: NIGHT i, said what? Happened he, said they found some 200 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:30,439 Speaker 4: white guy out there On puget and they found two 201 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 4: stolen cars in the, alley one in this, alley one another. 202 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 4: ALLEY i was, like, okay he, said, oh, man police 203 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 4: was hot last. NIGHT i, said, well, NAH i heard 204 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 4: anything about. IT i, said, well let me go on 205 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:42,679 Speaker 4: and go CAUSE i got to get to. Work SO 206 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 4: i left and that WAS i, mean that was pretty 207 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:47,679 Speaker 4: much ALL i had learned that they had found a 208 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 4: white guy in the. 209 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:50,199 Speaker 3: Neighborhood and it. 210 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 1: Was just a few days later that you were, arrested, 211 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 1: Right did you have any inkling that was going to? Happen? 212 00:10:55,960 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: None can you tell me about the? Crime what happened that? 213 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: Night who was Jeff? 214 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 3: Young? 215 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 2: So Jeffrey young was thirty three years, old, white married 216 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 2: to his high school, sweetheart the father of three children 217 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 2: under ten years. 218 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 1: Old this Is barbara, Again she goes By. 219 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 2: BARB i worked FOR npr for nineteen years and ended 220 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:25,680 Speaker 2: up doing a story About Ben spencer FOR npr but 221 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 2: also For The, atlantic Where i'm a contributing. 222 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:31,319 Speaker 1: Writer LIKE i, Said barb first heard Of ben in twenty, 223 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 1: seventeen and she has spent hundreds of hours working on 224 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 1: and interviewing key people in this. Case her journey is 225 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 1: documented in her latest, Book Bringing Ben. Home in, it 226 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: she also tries to answer what happened To Jeffrey, young 227 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: the man who was killed that? Night in nineteen eighty, 228 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:51,679 Speaker 1: Seven he. 229 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 2: Worked for a clothing import. Company he was actually about 230 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 2: to become, president and On sunday nights he would go 231 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 2: in to work because many of his clients see people 232 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 2: imported from were In. Asia so it was There monday. 233 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 1: Morning barb, Says jeffrey was alone at the warehouse waiting 234 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:08,679 Speaker 1: to get on his. 235 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:12,599 Speaker 2: Computer back, then it was the ancient days of, computers 236 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 2: and so he had to basically ask permission to get 237 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 2: on his computer. System and he called up the guy 238 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 2: who handled the computer, systems and the guy, said we're 239 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:24,079 Speaker 2: doing an. Update you can't get on for another. Hour 240 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 2: i'll call you when you can get. On so a 241 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 2: few minutes go, by an hour goes, by and the 242 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 2: guy Calls Jeffrey, young and it rings and rings and, 243 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 2: rings and he calls back several. Times and what police 244 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 2: now believe is that was the time When Jeffrey young 245 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 2: was being. 246 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 1: Assaulted the theory is that two people waited in the 247 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 1: parking lot Where JEFFREY'S bmw was parked and attacked him 248 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 1: sometime around ten. Pm they hit. 249 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:56,960 Speaker 2: Him on the head with a blunt, object cracking his 250 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 2: skull in five. Places they picked him, Up they walked 251 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 2: to THE, bmw they had the, Keys they opened the, 252 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 2: trunk they put him in THE, bmw slammed the, door 253 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 2: and then they. Drive they drive across The Trinity river 254 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 2: Into West ellis and at some point Somehow Jeffrey young 255 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 2: there was a little latch in the trunk And Jeffrey 256 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:22,560 Speaker 2: young managed to get out and fall On Puget, street 257 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 2: and the perpetrators looked, back saw he was on the, street, 258 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 2: panicked drove THE bmw into the alley, nearby and then ran. 259 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 1: Away they got away with His sako, watch wedding, ring 260 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 1: and PORTABLE tv radio and they Left Jeffrey young dying 261 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 1: on the. 262 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 2: Street and there he lay, shaking you, know, bleeding as 263 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 2: a small crowd gathered around. 264 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: Him when the paramedics, Arrived Jeffrey young was still. Alive 265 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: they rushed him to the hospital and police questioned a few, 266 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: witnesses thinking they were just investigating a. Robbery barb says 267 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: they got a description of someone who looked like a 268 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:10,319 Speaker 1: guy Named Van Mitchell. 269 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 2: Spencer, unfortunately they didn't get any names or phone, numbers 270 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 2: so they could never go back and find them as. 271 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 2: Witnesses then the case took a. Turn Jeffrey young succumbed 272 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 2: to his injuries and died in the hospital early the next, 273 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 2: morning and shortly after a powerful man Named Ross perrot 274 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 2: stepped in to. Help Ross preaux at that point was 275 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 2: probably one of the most influential people In. Texas he 276 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 2: was self made billionaire about to run for president. 277 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 3: Good After nan. 278 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 5: The volunteers in all fifty states have asked Made iran 279 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 5: as candidate For priends of The United, states. 280 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 2: And one of his top executives was the father of the. 281 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 2: Victim and, suddenly you, know this robbery investigation became a murder. 282 00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 1: Investigation perrot offered a twenty five one thousand dollars reward 283 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 1: for any information leading to the arrest and indictment of 284 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 1: the killer or, killers. 285 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 2: And people started coming out. 286 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: Of the, woodwork people like forty two year Old Gladys. 287 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 1: Oliver she'd originally told police she hadn't seen, anything but 288 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: a few days later she called Crime, stoppers an organization 289 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 1: that offers rewards for information that leads to an. Arrest 290 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: oliver told them that from her bedroom window that, night 291 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 1: she'd seen two black men she knew from the. Neighborhood 292 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 1: one was a shorter man by the name Of Robert, 293 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: mitchell the other was an acquaintance of her, Son's Benjamin. 294 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 2: Spencer she suggested that they talked to a couple of 295 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 2: other people and gave the name Of Jimmy. 296 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: Cotton Jimmy cotton described the same sequence of events As 297 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: Gladys oliver, did but added that he'd Seen ben jump 298 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: over a fence and get into a red. Thunderbird Jesse 299 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: brisino was the lead, detective and just four days After 300 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 1: Jeffrey young's, killing based on eyewitness testimony, Alone brisino was 301 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: convinced he had his. Purpse On march twenty, sixth nineteen eighty, 302 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: Seven Ben spencer was home with a headache while waiting 303 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: for his Friend charles to swing. By he figured he'd 304 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 1: take some tyle and all and nap off the. 305 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 4: MIGRAINE i hear this beating on the, door and WHEN 306 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 4: i wake, UP i noticed on the clock it's two, 307 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 4: thirty SO i, figured, oh this must Be. Charles but 308 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 4: on the way to the front, DOOR i could see 309 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 4: out the front window that there was police cars out. 310 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 1: Front ben opens the door and sees an officer who, asks. 311 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 3: Do you have ANY? 312 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 4: ID i said, Sure i'll put reach in my, pocket 313 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 4: put out my hand in MY. Id he, said, turn 314 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 4: turn and put your hands on the will you under? 315 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 4: WRIST i, say under? 316 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 3: Rest for? 317 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 4: What so he puts me in the car and turns 318 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 4: over and looks over the back of the seat and he, 319 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,359 Speaker 4: said you know the white guy they found the street 320 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 4: the other? DAY i, SAID i heard about. It he, 321 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 4: said that's what you're under the rest for his. MURDER i, said, 322 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 4: man you're making a. 323 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 1: Mistake then was, shocked but he figured he'd cooperate and 324 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 1: get this all sorted. 325 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 4: Out and So i'm thinking that the truth is going to, 326 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 4: prevail And i'm telling him WHAT i had did that. 327 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 4: DAY i, mean from morning to, Night i'm telling him 328 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 4: WHAT i. Did of, COURSE i guess it fell on 329 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 4: deaf ears BECAUSE i was arrested and charged with this. 330 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 1: Crime so you never left jail that. Day do you 331 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:41,919 Speaker 1: remember the first time you spoke To deborah after you were. 332 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:44,640 Speaker 3: ARRESTING i Called deborah that evening. 333 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 4: To let her KNOW i was in, Jail and of 334 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:50,920 Speaker 4: course my main concern was telling her THAT i didn't 335 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:53,919 Speaker 4: commit this, offense AND i need to tell you something 336 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:55,200 Speaker 4: because you're. 337 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 3: Going to find. 338 00:17:55,640 --> 00:18:00,080 Speaker 4: Out and SO i began to tell her About. CHRISTY i, 339 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 4: said you, KNOW i want to be the one to 340 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 4: tell you that because you're going to find, out because 341 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 4: that's WHY i was with the night this offense. 342 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 1: Happened what are the chances that you get arrested for 343 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: something you didn't do on a night that you have an, 344 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:16,879 Speaker 1: alibi but it's for something not. Great also right. 345 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:19,439 Speaker 4: At that, time my marriage was only two months, oh 346 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 4: AND i definitely wasn't SOMETHING i wanted to have to 347 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 4: share with her or. 348 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: Tell, Her but he had to if he was going 349 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,439 Speaker 1: to get out of, this he had to give an, 350 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:35,479 Speaker 1: alibi and his alibi Was. Christie then figured the police 351 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 1: would do their, job talk To, christy and everything would 352 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 1: be squared. 353 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:43,120 Speaker 4: Away for some, reason they just ignored the fact That 354 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 4: christy AND i were. Together it didn't fit into their 355 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 4: scheme of what they believe. Happened so of course she 356 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:52,399 Speaker 4: was ignored and no one wanted. 357 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:58,159 Speaker 2: Her and by this investigation was a mess from start to. 358 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:03,400 Speaker 2: Finish they didn't preserve the crime too or take. 359 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,479 Speaker 1: Photos they just drove the car. Off police Took Jeffrey 360 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:10,159 Speaker 1: YOUNG'S bmw to the police, lot but that morning. 361 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 2: They opened the police lot up to people who wanted 362 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:18,160 Speaker 2: to buy abandoned. Cars oh my, gosh and so anyone 363 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 2: could have touched that. 364 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 1: Car plus it had rained before they can do any thorough. 365 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 1: Fingerprinting they were able to recover some finger and palm, 366 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:30,359 Speaker 1: prints but none Matched ben Or Robert. 367 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 2: MITCHELL i don't know what they were, thinking. Honestly and 368 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 2: then the minute they Got Gladys oliver and a couple 369 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 2: of people to say they Saw Ben. Spencer essentially the investigation. 370 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,640 Speaker 1: Stopped that was. It twenty two year Old Ben, spencer 371 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 1: as soon to be, father with no history of violent, 372 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:56,639 Speaker 1: crime was charged with. Murder he went to trial just months, 373 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:03,399 Speaker 1: later On october twenty, sixth nineteen eighty. Seven ben And 374 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:07,679 Speaker 1: Robert mitchell were tried. Separately the prosecutor In ben's case 375 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 1: Was Jeffrey. Hines since no evidence was found in the, 376 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 1: killing he relied on the witness testimony. Alone Gladys oliver 377 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,919 Speaker 1: And Jimmy cotton stuck to their, stories and the prosecution 378 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:26,479 Speaker 1: bolstered their case with another star, witness a jailhouse snitch 379 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: Named Danny, edwards who swore That ben told him he 380 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 1: had Killed. Jeffrey ben's, Attorney Frank, jackson relied almost entirely 381 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 1: On ben's alibi On, christy but the police tried to discredit. 382 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 1: Her they had previously shown her a picture which she 383 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:46,160 Speaker 1: did not identify As. 384 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 4: Ben she says that the picture they showed her did 385 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 4: not look like. Me she said it was a picture 386 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:54,879 Speaker 4: that looked like it was taken real, close where you 387 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:57,719 Speaker 4: couldn't really make out who the person was because it 388 00:20:57,760 --> 00:20:59,399 Speaker 4: was so taken so close. 389 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:00,200 Speaker 1: What the picture, Was, YES. 390 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 3: I don't and we have not been able to find the. 391 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:08,199 Speaker 2: PICTURE i went and talked To christie about it and she, 392 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 2: SAID i KNOW i was With ben that. 393 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 3: NIGHT i mean he. 394 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 2: Couldn't the math is such that he could not have 395 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:18,680 Speaker 2: gone and Killed Jeffrey young and come back and spend 396 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 2: any time with. 397 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,640 Speaker 1: Me but the jury didn't believe. Her ben was convicted 398 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 1: and later sentenced to thirty five years for the murder 399 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:31,120 Speaker 1: Of Jeffrey, young but that conviction would be thrown. 400 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 4: Out we can Thank Bruce, anton who was the co 401 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 4: chair with my attorney at the, Time Frank, jackson who 402 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 4: discovered that within The states file that they had hidden 403 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:46,439 Speaker 4: the fact that Gladys oliver had called Crime stop and 404 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,920 Speaker 4: also had received five hundred and eighty Dollars at the, time. 405 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: The judge Granted ben a new, trial believing the jury 406 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,440 Speaker 1: should have known that Gladys oliver had claimed for ward. 407 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 1: Money but before that trial took, place the prosecution offered 408 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: a deal for twenty years on a lesser, charge with 409 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:09,440 Speaker 1: parole eligibility in less than five. Years But ben said. 410 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 4: NO i, said, well whatever they're going to, do they're 411 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:13,199 Speaker 4: going to have to do, it Because i'm not going 412 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 4: to plead givety to SOMETHING i didn't. 413 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 1: Do he was adamant that life on parole for a 414 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 1: crime he hadn't done wouldn't be true. 415 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 4: Freedom IF i accepted the plea, offer went to prison may, 416 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:26,679 Speaker 4: PAROLE i would HAVE x on my. 417 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 3: Back. 418 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 4: NOW i felt that every time that they couldn't solve 419 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 4: a crime and they needed to, SUSPECT i would become the. 420 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: Escapegoat ben says he refused to become polices go to 421 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,919 Speaker 1: suspect every time they had an unsolved. Crime so he 422 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: went to his second, trial charged with a lesser, offense aggravated. 423 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 1: Robbery this time the prosecutor Was Andy. 424 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 2: Beach WHEN i first Met Andy beach in twenty, seventeen he, 425 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 2: said you, Know Gladys oliver was basically the best Witness 426 00:22:57,880 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 2: i've ever put on the stand. 427 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 5: In the twenty five YEARS i tried criminal. Cases she 428 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 5: was one of the top three or four eyewitnesses of all. 429 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 5: Time just her physical pressence and her ability to clearly 430 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 5: answer questions and to stand up to cross examination get 431 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 5: carried the day for. 432 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 3: Us there's no. 433 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,919 Speaker 2: Question he described how she kind of rolled in in a, 434 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,680 Speaker 2: wheelchair was eye level with the, jury had a little 435 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 2: blanket over her, lap that she was. 436 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 5: Riveting she was very confident in what she had seen 437 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 5: and her ability to communicate that to a, jury. 438 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,159 Speaker 2: And she just took no guph From ben's. 439 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 5: Lawyer there's no question That Gladys oliver's testimony Convicted Ben. 440 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 1: Spencer Danny, edwards the snitch was also key this. Time 441 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 1: he added That ben had told him his only regret 442 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: was that he hadn't finished the job At young's. Office he, 443 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,439 Speaker 1: Said ben told, him, QUOTE i should have killed bitch 444 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,719 Speaker 1: right then and. There and Then ben took the. Stand 445 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:07,640 Speaker 1: So i'm on the stand and. 446 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 4: The prosecutor he's doing his cross, examination and he was, 447 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 4: like when you hold up your hands for, me AND 448 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,159 Speaker 4: i hold up my hands And i've got them my 449 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:19,919 Speaker 4: fingers played. 450 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 1: Out beach Asked ben to hold his hands. Up Remember 451 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 1: ben is six foot four with large hands to. 452 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 4: MATCH i can't remember exact, words but he went to 453 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 4: describe HOW i could have used my hands to Grab 454 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 4: Jeffrey young by his throat and choke. 455 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 2: Him you just had a feeling that he wanted to 456 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:47,399 Speaker 2: evoke in the midge of almost a really POWERFUL i, 457 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:49,400 Speaker 2: Mean i'm gonna be offensive, here but like an, ape, 458 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:53,119 Speaker 2: right like a really, powerful almost monster with these huge, 459 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 2: hands and those hands could just snap a, neck, right that. 460 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 2: Was and the thing is that was. Seecial that got 461 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 2: across BECAUSE i talked to the jury foreman and he remembers, 462 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 2: that and he remembers, thinking, wow, wow no matter, what 463 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 2: that guy could have Killed Jeffrey, young no matter, how 464 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:15,959 Speaker 2: look at those. Hands so it worked. 465 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 1: Again then was, convicted but this time of aggravated robbery 466 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 1: and sentenced to life in. Prison he remembers the night 467 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:31,160 Speaker 1: of the conviction and, sentencing sitting in a cold. 468 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,719 Speaker 4: Cell i've been convicted and sentenced to, life AND i 469 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 4: just couldn't see the end of. THAT i was, like, 470 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:41,400 Speaker 4: man the world will end BEFORE i have a sea. 471 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 4: Freedom and SO i literally wanted to. DIE i literally 472 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 4: wanted to take my own life that, night AND i 473 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 4: thought about taking my tie and hanging myself in that. 474 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 4: Cell but my, faith in my, belief was IF i 475 00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 4: commit the ultimate sin of taking my, LIFE i can't 476 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 4: RepA i can't turn away from. That SO i felt 477 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 4: that IF i was to commit, SUICIDE i would have 478 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,919 Speaker 4: gone to. Hell so that thought was the only thing 479 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 4: kept me from hanging myself in that sale that. 480 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 1: Night and over the, Years ben kept his. Faith how 481 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 1: many times did you read The bible in? 482 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:17,160 Speaker 3: PRISON i couldn't. 483 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 4: COUNT i would say at least probably twenty or thirty 484 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 4: times from front to. BACK i, MEAN i didn't think 485 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:27,880 Speaker 4: anybody could really read The, bible and much LESS i 486 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,360 Speaker 4: get an understanding of. It but the MORE i rated, 487 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 4: it AND i say, read BUT i should really, say 488 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 4: the MORE i studied, it the more ENLIGHTENMENT i. 489 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:41,399 Speaker 1: Received part of that enlightenment was realizing That deborah was 490 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 1: on the outside suffering. 491 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,239 Speaker 4: TOO i just wanted her to go on with her 492 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:49,640 Speaker 4: life and hopefully find someone that would be as good 493 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 4: to her AS i wanted to. 494 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:55,160 Speaker 1: Be around nineteen ninety four or, Five deborah And ben got, 495 00:26:55,200 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 1: divorced But deborah never Abandoned, ben and. 496 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 2: He continued just being in love with, her and she 497 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:05,120 Speaker 2: was his most faithful. 498 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:14,959 Speaker 1: Friend in two thousand and, Four ben filed post conviction 499 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,639 Speaker 1: relief A Habeas. Corpus with the help Of jim McCluskey 500 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 1: And Centurion, ministries they Reinvestigated ben's, case which included trying 501 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:28,160 Speaker 1: to figure out what the eyewitnesses could have actually seen 502 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:30,360 Speaker 1: in the dark that night in nineteen eighty. 503 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 2: Seven What ben's legal team wanted to do was to 504 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 2: show how hard it would be would have been to 505 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 2: identify anyone on that. Night it was ten o'clock at, 506 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 2: night it was, cloudy very few, lights and the witnesses 507 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,479 Speaker 2: were all standing quite a distance. Away so what they 508 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 2: did is, say got a forensic optomologist and brought him 509 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 2: to the crime scene on a similar night In march 510 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 2: a few years, obviously a few years, later twenty years, 511 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,719 Speaker 2: later and he was able to measure the, distances and 512 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:07,439 Speaker 2: what he knew from science is that in those conditions of, 513 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 2: lighting a person could not be further away than twenty 514 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:16,479 Speaker 2: five feet to be able to identify a person's. Face 515 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 2: and all of those people were, alike ninety three feet 516 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 2: one hundred and thirteen feet two hundred and eighty feet. 517 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 2: Away there is absolutely no way that those people could 518 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 2: have identified even their. 519 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 1: Brother ben's defense team also interviewed dozens of witnesses poking 520 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: holes in the police, investigation and they pointed to a 521 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: more plausible, suspect Though i'll tell you more about that, 522 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 1: Later barb says century ministries even Invited Alan ledbetter to the. 523 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 1: Hearing he was the foreman of the jury that Convicted 524 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 1: ben in his second. Trial And ledbetter went and. 525 00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 2: It was racially. Divided one side of the room all, 526 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 2: white all the friends Of Jeffrey, young the people who 527 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 2: worked For Ross, brow that kind of, thing and Behind 528 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 2: ben all, black, right all Of ben's friends and family 529 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 2: and all. That And Alan ledbetter started in the white. 530 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 3: Section is he a white? Guy he's a white. 531 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:21,719 Speaker 2: Guy he started in the white, section and after hearing, 532 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 2: evidence he moved over to the black, section and it 533 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,239 Speaker 2: was the only white face in the black. Section and 534 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 2: he became really convinced that they had done a terrible. 535 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 2: Injustice in, fact WHEN i interviewed, him he began to. 536 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 2: Cry he, SAID i just THINK i have such a 537 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 2: role in, this and ALL i can think of is 538 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 2: all those YEARS i took away From. 539 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 1: Ben jim McCloskey presented all of this evidence in two 540 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 1: thousand and seven To Judge Rick. Magnus the judge ruled 541 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 1: that he was actually. 542 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:01,480 Speaker 2: Innocent ben was actually. Innocent he could not Release. 543 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 1: Ben even Though Judge magnus ruled That ben deserved a new, 544 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: trial quote on the grounds of actual. Innocence The court 545 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 1: Of Criminal appeals In texas still had to, approve and 546 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 1: the judges Denied. 547 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 2: Ben here's a case where a guy was declared innocent 548 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 2: and he still couldn't get, Out, like what does it 549 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:24,720 Speaker 2: take to get? 550 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: Out barb wanted to, know so she LEFT dc and 551 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 1: went To dallas with her. Microphone thank you so. 552 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 2: Much how are you doing? 553 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 3: Today pretty? Good? 554 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 2: Yeah good. Good WHEN i Met ben a little, bit 555 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 2: what struck me was how gentle he was and how soft. 556 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 4: Spoken my name Is Benjamin John. Spencer my number is 557 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 4: forty thirty seven. 558 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 2: Thirteen there was no pushing, me, like you, Know i'm, 559 00:30:58,160 --> 00:30:59,719 Speaker 2: Innocent you've got to get me out of. Here there 560 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 2: was none of. That it was just explaining where he. 561 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 3: Was i'm just at a point WHERE i Just i'm still, 562 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 3: hopeful but at the same, time it's just Like i'm 563 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 3: stuck in the. 564 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:15,479 Speaker 2: System prisonally for him was Not it wasn't. Living it 565 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 2: was just. 566 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 3: Existing, yeah it's a lot of THINGS i could be. 567 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:24,480 Speaker 3: Doing my parents are getting older and more. 568 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 4: FRAGILE i could be doing things for. THEM i could 569 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 4: be doing a lot of positive things for a lot of. 570 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 4: People i'm not the monster that they've tried to make 571 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 4: me out to. 572 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 1: Be barb was determined to find out what happened that 573 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 1: night in nineteen eighty. Seven did this man sitting in front. 574 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 5: Of her do? 575 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 1: It barb teamed up with private Investigator Darryl parker and 576 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 1: set out to do some real shoe leather. 577 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:57,080 Speaker 3: Reporting her And Daryl parker. TOGETHER i, mean that was 578 00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 3: a duo, that you, know could only have been put 579 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 3: together By, god and an odd. 580 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 1: Duo barb is this tiny. Lady although she's a, veteran 581 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: no nonsense, reporter she comes across as sweet and. Adorable 582 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 1: her Sidekick darryl has the neck of a. Linebacker he 583 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 1: looks like a former cop and, marine which he. Is 584 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 1: and together they door knocked Around. 585 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 2: Dallas we went to every single. House i'll just tell 586 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 2: you this one. Story this is WHY i had so much. 587 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 2: Fun we're standing in front of this. Apartment darryl is 588 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 2: about to, knock and he looks over and he sees 589 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 2: That i'm standing directly in front of the. Door and 590 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 2: he reaches over and he gently takes me by the 591 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 2: shoulders and moves me over like two feet and he. 592 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 2: Goes sometimes they shoot through the. Door NOW i had been. 593 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 2: Washing i'd been a reporter for like thirty five. Years 594 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,720 Speaker 2: i'd never considered that someone might shoot. Me huh through the. 595 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 1: Door no one got, shot and they were able to 596 00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 1: track Down Jimmy, cotton the, witness who added that he'd 597 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 1: Seen ben running From Jeffrey young's car that night from 598 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 1: ninety three feet. AWAY i had. 599 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 2: Kind of plotted out this really careful interview journey, right 600 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 2: not to spook, him, right just start gently and all of. That, like, 601 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 2: YEAH i didn't have to do any of. That it's 602 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 2: like it was a. Confessional it was like he'd been 603 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 2: waiting for thirty years to blurt. OUT i don't know 604 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 2: IF i saw him or. NOT i didn't see his. 605 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 2: FACE i just saw someone running. 606 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 3: Away he was. 607 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:33,960 Speaker 2: TALL i thought it might be Like, ben but you, 608 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 2: know and the police told me that they were Investigating. 609 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 2: Ben so the police gave him that. 610 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 1: Information, remember the cops had talked To cotton at the 611 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 1: suggestion Of Gladys, oliver the prosecution star. 612 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:50,360 Speaker 2: Witness it all came out that Gladys oliver had told, 613 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 2: him just follow my, lead just say WHAT i, Say 614 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 2: just say it Was, Ben and that all came. 615 00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 1: Out it was known from the first trial That gladys 616 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 1: was interested in the reward. Money, however now it was 617 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:09,839 Speaker 1: clear That Jimmy cotton also had motive to. Lie it's 618 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 1: unclear If cotton ever received any. Money here he is 619 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 1: on the Podcast Radio atlantic Telling barb how he feels 620 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 1: About ben's conviction decades. LATER i feel. 621 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:25,720 Speaker 3: Bad i'll. HOPE i want them to get, OUT i really. 622 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 3: Do that's a long time to be in prison for 623 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:29,320 Speaker 3: something you didn't. 624 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 2: Do and the other person we tracked down was the jailhouse, 625 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 2: Snitch Danny, edwards and we're, like, So, danny Did Ben 626 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 2: spencer ever confess to. You, no he didn't confess to. 627 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 2: Me he said they said he did. It he didn't 628 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 2: even know the. Guy he didn't even go over. There, 629 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 2: NO i didn't confess to. 630 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 1: Me danny Told barb that the police told him That 631 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 1: ben Said danny did. It So dan and he Said 632 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 1: ben did. 633 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:03,799 Speaker 2: It and then he says to, me you, know that's 634 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 2: the way the game is played in. Prison that's in. 635 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 3: Jail in, prison the better, liar better fighter. 636 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:13,080 Speaker 1: Wing Here's edwards talking To barb for the Podcast Radio, 637 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:14,239 Speaker 1: atlantic and. 638 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:17,360 Speaker 3: They were forcing us saying you kidded. Him he's saying 639 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 3: you kid. Him you know that's. Different but that shit 640 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:20,920 Speaker 3: though with. 641 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 2: CAN i ask, you do you Think Ben spencer's? 642 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:25,840 Speaker 3: Innocent, yeah he didn't do. 643 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:27,840 Speaker 4: It in my, heart he didn't do, it you, know 644 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:29,680 Speaker 4: just he lied on me AND i lied on. 645 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:31,880 Speaker 3: Him that's what it, is what it, is you. 646 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,760 Speaker 2: Know Danny edwards was facing a twenty five year prison 647 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:40,959 Speaker 2: sentence for arson aggravated robbery and he walked out two 648 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:45,000 Speaker 2: months after he testified Against. Ben so he was in 649 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:47,400 Speaker 2: prison for better or he was in jail for about a. 650 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,200 Speaker 1: Year do you think he felt guilty about? It? 651 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 2: Yes oh. Yeah so we're sitting they were kind of 652 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 2: wrapping up the interview and we're sitting outside and he, goes, 653 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 2: so how Is ben? Anyway AND i, Said, Danny ben's in. 654 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 2: Prison he, goes, OH i thought he was. OUT i said, 655 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:15,680 Speaker 2: no he's been imprisoned for thirty. Years And daryl, says, 656 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:20,200 Speaker 2: so how does that make you? Feel And danny, says. 657 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:27,800 Speaker 1: Like. Shit barb even built a rapport With Andy, beach 658 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 1: the prosecutor who got a conviction At ben's second. Trial 659 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: so the last. 660 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:35,399 Speaker 2: TIME i talked to him for sitting in the jury 661 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:39,359 Speaker 2: room And i'm not even seated, yet And i've turned 662 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 2: out the tape, recorder not even seated. Yet and he, 663 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:46,680 Speaker 2: goes you, KNOW i have serious doubts About Ben spencer's. 664 00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:50,799 Speaker 1: Guilt but even With beach's doubts And barb's, Reporting Ben 665 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:57,879 Speaker 1: spencer remained in. Prison getting him, Out barb, says would 666 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:10,120 Speaker 1: take some luck and new district. Attorney In november twenty, 667 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 1: Eighteen John, cruseau a Progressive Black, democrat was now elected 668 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:19,400 Speaker 1: as The District attorney Of Dallas. County barb, says now 669 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:20,160 Speaker 1: there was. 670 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:24,759 Speaker 2: Hope the four previous das had refused to look at his. 671 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,719 Speaker 2: Case they, said, no it's open and. Shut and so 672 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:30,840 Speaker 2: a NEW da comes, along and because we had gotten 673 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 2: new evidence that he could consider since a, trial he 674 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,560 Speaker 2: was open minded and he put his really good prosecutor 675 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:39,279 Speaker 2: on it to investigate. 676 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:44,120 Speaker 1: It his conviction review, unit headed By Cynthia, garza started 677 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,719 Speaker 1: reviewing the. Case they Had barb's reporting and all the 678 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 1: evidence previously compiled By Centurion, ministries and they also uncovered 679 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:58,360 Speaker 1: more evidence that the prosecution's key, Witness Gladys oliver. Lied 680 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,720 Speaker 1: he received five thousand to ten thousand dollars in reward 681 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,920 Speaker 1: money on top of the money she got from crime, 682 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 1: stoppers and she had lied about that in the second 683 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:15,760 Speaker 1: trial to Investigator Cynthia garza believed the prosecution knew about 684 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:20,000 Speaker 1: the incentive to, lie which qualifies as A brady. Violation 685 00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:26,000 Speaker 1: so with all this evidence pointing Towards ben's, Innocence barb started, 686 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,400 Speaker 1: thinking If Ben spencer didn't do, this who. 687 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:36,640 Speaker 2: Did in eighty, seven right around the time of The 688 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:40,320 Speaker 2: Jeffrey young, killing there was a man Named Michael hubbard 689 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:43,319 Speaker 2: who was about the same age as As, ben lived 690 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 2: In West. 691 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:47,279 Speaker 1: Dallas hubbard was a known criminal who worked with two 692 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,880 Speaker 1: friends to stick up and rob. Restaurants the night of 693 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:54,440 Speaker 1: Jeff young's, Assault Michael hubbard spoke to some friends at a. 694 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,920 Speaker 2: Park he had a really terrible coke. Habit he really 695 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,480 Speaker 2: needed money and his friends if they would come help 696 00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:04,239 Speaker 2: them to rob a, restaurant and they're, like, no, man 697 00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:06,200 Speaker 2: there are too many police around and we're not doing. 698 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:08,920 Speaker 2: That so he was, desperate so he goes off and 699 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:12,600 Speaker 2: he comes back a few hours later and he has 700 00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:16,279 Speaker 2: A sakah watch in a wedding ring and a jam. 701 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:21,400 Speaker 1: Box hubbard asks his friend to help him sell, it 702 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:25,320 Speaker 1: so they. Do then they score drugs and get high 703 00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:29,359 Speaker 1: with some other. Friends while they're getting, High michael tells 704 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:31,279 Speaker 1: them where the items came. 705 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:35,680 Speaker 2: From and after he said, this all four of them were, 706 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:39,600 Speaker 2: silent and they're, Like, michael you really Can't you can't 707 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:41,959 Speaker 2: tell anyone that you shouldn't have told this to. Us 708 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:47,160 Speaker 2: so what happened is a few months, later the two 709 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:49,920 Speaker 2: friends got kind of a conscience when they realized That 710 00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 2: ben And robert were going we're going to be tried for, 711 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,360 Speaker 2: this and they went to the, police and the police ignored. 712 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:03,160 Speaker 2: It they didn't even Interview Michael hubbard because they already 713 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:03,480 Speaker 2: Had Ben. 714 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:06,359 Speaker 1: Spencer hubbard wound up going to prison for a. 715 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:13,200 Speaker 2: Robbery he gets out around ninety two and he starts 716 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:19,480 Speaker 2: the spree of what are called The batman, assaults where 717 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,759 Speaker 2: he would wait outside of an office building with a 718 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,720 Speaker 2: high end car in, it right in the parking, lot 719 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:30,720 Speaker 2: and wait for the executive to come, out and then 720 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,719 Speaker 2: he would hit him over the head and take his 721 00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:37,920 Speaker 2: jewelry and his, cash but not the credit, cards just 722 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,400 Speaker 2: the way it happened With Jeffrey. Young and he was 723 00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:48,600 Speaker 2: finally convicted of These batman. Robberies ten people seriously hurt 724 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:56,600 Speaker 2: with the same very SAME. Mm so it's quite plausible 725 00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:03,360 Speaker 2: That Michael hubbard The, batman actually Killed Jeffrey. 726 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:11,600 Speaker 1: Young in early twenty twenty, one The Dallas County District 727 00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:19,080 Speaker 1: attorney Decided ben's conviction should be. Vacated, okay good, afternoon, everyone. 728 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:20,680 Speaker 3: That's. 729 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:25,400 Speaker 1: Good On march, twelfth twenty twenty, One ben stood in 730 00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:30,480 Speaker 1: front Of Judge Layla Lawrence mays remotely because OF covid all, 731 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:31,040 Speaker 1: RIGHT i. 732 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:33,680 Speaker 2: Want everybody to know that we are live streaming on 733 00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:36,279 Speaker 2: YouTube through the two eighty Third District courts. 734 00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:40,719 Speaker 1: YouTube And Judge mays agreed to Release ben on his personal. 735 00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:44,120 Speaker 2: Recognissance, so because of everything THAT i have, read because 736 00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:46,440 Speaker 2: of WHAT i think is fair to Mister, SPENCER i 737 00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:48,400 Speaker 2: have decided to go ahead and grant A pr. 738 00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,080 Speaker 4: BOND i would, say within forty five minutes of this 739 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:53,200 Speaker 4: judge telling me she's going to release me on A pr, 740 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:57,719 Speaker 4: BOND i was walking out the front, door AND i 741 00:41:57,719 --> 00:41:59,279 Speaker 4: MEAN i didn't expect it to happen that. 742 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,279 Speaker 3: FAST i happened so. QUICKLY a lot of. 743 00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:05,760 Speaker 4: The jailers were even, saying, man that's the quickest Release 744 00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:06,160 Speaker 4: i've ever. 745 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:09,560 Speaker 1: Seen barb was outside of the courthouse that, day live 746 00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:13,760 Speaker 1: streaming the hearing with a crowd of, people including, strangers Supporting. 747 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:15,319 Speaker 1: Ben there was this. 748 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:21,080 Speaker 2: Cheer people didn't even Know, ben but like Because ben 749 00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:25,840 Speaker 2: had become this symbol of both the kind of calcification 750 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:29,839 Speaker 2: of the, system but also one of those rare instances 751 00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:32,160 Speaker 2: when can we broke? 752 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:32,399 Speaker 3: Through? 753 00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:37,200 Speaker 2: Right and so people were cheering and we all everyone 754 00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,120 Speaker 2: went rushing down to the outside of the jail to 755 00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:43,920 Speaker 2: wait For ben to come. Out there were probably two 756 00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:46,920 Speaker 2: hundred people in, there kind of talking excitedly and all of. 757 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:49,680 Speaker 2: That and from the end of the room it comes 758 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:54,440 Speaker 2: from around the. Corner ben And deborah appear and stop 759 00:42:56,040 --> 00:43:00,839 Speaker 2: and they just look at this crowd of, people And 760 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:06,280 Speaker 2: deborah looks slightly freaked, out And ben looked really, happy 761 00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:11,560 Speaker 2: and they walked like this royal couple, through you, know 762 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:15,200 Speaker 2: through the, crowds and everyone's like high Fiving ben and 763 00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:16,000 Speaker 2: everyone's just. 764 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:22,640 Speaker 1: Thrilled deborah was right there next to. Him after all 765 00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,399 Speaker 1: of these, YEARS i. 766 00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,400 Speaker 2: Read through twenty five hundred pages of his letters to. 767 00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:30,640 Speaker 1: Her letters he wrote To deborah from. 768 00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:37,160 Speaker 2: Prison he's a really kind of very, smart, clinical like dispassionate. 769 00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:41,000 Speaker 2: Person but when you read those, letters what you see 770 00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:43,400 Speaker 2: is he was wildly in love with. 771 00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:48,840 Speaker 1: Her ben And deborah got married again in twenty twenty. 772 00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:53,480 Speaker 4: Two it would have been our thirty fifth wind. Anniversary 773 00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:55,239 Speaker 4: the remarried on Her. 774 00:43:55,640 --> 00:44:00,759 Speaker 1: Yeah ben looks back and reflects on everything that went. 775 00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:09,000 Speaker 4: Down i've never harbored any ill will for, anyone not, 776 00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:14,960 Speaker 4: then not. Now And i'm just a, kind loving person 777 00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,840 Speaker 4: who believes who believed in the system at that. Time 778 00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:23,560 Speaker 4: still believe the system has the potential to. Work but 779 00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:27,040 Speaker 4: it requires us to keep an open, mind and we 780 00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:29,760 Speaker 4: have to realize that just because a person is behind 781 00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:34,319 Speaker 4: the table on the defense, end that that person is 782 00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:36,279 Speaker 4: not guilty just because he's. 783 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:41,000 Speaker 1: There ben says he wants to help others like, him 784 00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:45,080 Speaker 1: but mostly he's just happy to be a dad To Benjamin. 785 00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:49,919 Speaker 1: Jr and husband to deb like he wanted all those years. 786 00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:54,600 Speaker 4: AGO i Thank deborah and him for having my back 787 00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:58,680 Speaker 4: fall those, years for loving me for those. Years it 788 00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:00,799 Speaker 4: just means a lot to me to have them in 789 00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:04,399 Speaker 4: my life now and hopefully to this life. 790 00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:12,239 Speaker 1: Ends the day After ben got, Out barb went to 791 00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:12,960 Speaker 1: see him at. 792 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:20,160 Speaker 2: Home it's beautiful spring, Day march, thirteenth and you hear, 793 00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:23,080 Speaker 2: lawnmowers you hear kind of all the normal sounds of, spring, 794 00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:26,320 Speaker 2: right you hear, birds you hear and this is stuff 795 00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:31,720 Speaker 2: he hasn't heard for thirty four. Years AND i, Said, 796 00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:36,120 Speaker 2: ben how does that? Feel and he, says it just feels. 797 00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:42,160 Speaker 2: Normal feels like this is a LIFE i was supposed 798 00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:43,319 Speaker 2: to be living and Now i'm living. 799 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:51,239 Speaker 4: It that's HOW i feel, normal still feels. NORMAL i 800 00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:54,920 Speaker 4: have to recall the fact THAT i was. Incocerated, wow 801 00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:59,600 Speaker 4: it's like the thirty four years THAT i did in 802 00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:04,439 Speaker 4: prison just kind of, vanished and it's LIKE i woke 803 00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:10,200 Speaker 4: up out of a coma and resume my life on that. 804 00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:21,400 Speaker 1: Side after our, Interview Ben spencer was officially exonerated On 805 00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:30,560 Speaker 1: august twenty ninth of this. Year thank you for listening 806 00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:33,800 Speaker 1: To Wrongful conviction With Maggie. Freeling please support your local 807 00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:36,760 Speaker 1: innocence organizations and go to the links in the episode 808 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:39,719 Speaker 1: description and see how you can. Help you'll also see 809 00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:42,320 Speaker 1: a link To barb's book and her three part story 810 00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:45,080 Speaker 1: For The. Atlantic thank you To barb for letting us 811 00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:48,160 Speaker 1: use her, recordings and To Ethan goldman And Sam devaney 812 00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:52,120 Speaker 1: At Anchor entertainment for the extra. Tape this episode was 813 00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:55,400 Speaker 1: written by Me Maggie, freeling with story editing and sound 814 00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:59,320 Speaker 1: designed by senior Producer Rebecca. Ibarra our producer Is Kathleen. 815 00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:03,240 Speaker 1: Fink our researcher Is Hallie, dolce with mixing By Josh. 816 00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:07,560 Speaker 1: Allen an additional production help By Jeff. Clyburn executive producers 817 00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:11,240 Speaker 1: Are Jason, Flamm Jeff, kempler And Kevin. Wordis the music 818 00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:15,200 Speaker 1: is by three TIME oscar nominated Composer Jay. Ralph make 819 00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:18,080 Speaker 1: sure to follow us on all social media platforms At 820 00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:21,479 Speaker 1: lava For good and At Wrongful. Conviction you can also 821 00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:25,560 Speaker 1: follow me on all platforms At Maggie. Freeling Wrongful conviction 822 00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:28,120 Speaker 1: With Maggie freeling is a production Of lava For Good 823 00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:35,080 Speaker 1: podcasts in association With Signal Company number. ONE a note to, 824 00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:39,160 Speaker 1: LISTENERS a previous version of this episode Named Faith johnson 825 00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:43,160 Speaker 1: as the prosecutor In ben's first. Trial it was Actually Jeffrey. 826 00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:43,600 Speaker 1: Hines