WEBVTT - Frida with Angela Campos 0:00:01.000 --> 0:00:04.600 On the Bechdelcast, the questions ask if movies have women 0:00:04.720 --> 0:00:08.000 and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands 0:00:08.039 --> 0:00:11.920 or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph and 0:00:12.119 --> 0:00:14.120 best start changing it. 0:00:14.000 --> 0:00:15.320 With the Bechdel Cast. 0:00:16.040 --> 0:00:20.520 Hey, Jamie, Hi, Caitlin, would you draw me like one 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:23.720 of your freeda girls self portraits? 0:00:24.200 --> 0:00:28.760 Question Mark. Well, no, that's not how that works at all. 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:31.680 Okay, yeah, that doesn't make sense. That's not how that works. 0:00:31.760 --> 0:00:35.080 I appreciate the ask, but really, you really need to 0:00:35.280 --> 0:00:36.320 look within, look. 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:37.240 To your darkest parts. 0:00:37.479 --> 0:00:40.360 What I should have said is, hey, Caitlin, would you 0:00:40.440 --> 0:00:43.640 draw me like one of your selves? 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:48.480 You know, we'll get there, We'll continue to navigate. 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:49.760 It's a work in progress. 0:00:50.360 --> 0:00:55.360 Yeah, this joke will kind of coagulate throughout the episode. 0:00:55.680 --> 0:00:58.880 In the meantime, Welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name 0:00:58.920 --> 0:01:02.480 is Jamie Loftus, my name is Caitlin Derante. This is 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:07.080 our podcast where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:10.560 using the Bechdel Test simply as a jumping off point. 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:15.680 And what is that though? I wonder well. The Bechdel 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:20.479 test is a media metric originally created by queer cartoonist 0:01:20.560 --> 0:01:24.399 Alison Bechdel, often called the Bechdel Wallace Test because it 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:28.080 was co created with her friend Liz Wallace. Originally made 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:32.679 as a bit as will become actually relevant in today's episode, 0:01:32.720 --> 0:01:35.000 but it was originally created as a bit for her 0:01:35.000 --> 0:01:39.080 comic collection Dykes to watch out for, and was originally 0:01:39.280 --> 0:01:43.720 sort of this conversation about how not just women or 0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:46.400 people of marginalized genders never talk to each other in movies, 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:47.119 but how. 0:01:47.080 --> 0:01:49.880 Queer women specifically never get to talk to each other 0:01:50.400 --> 0:01:51.360 in movies. 0:01:51.560 --> 0:01:54.320 A lot of versions of this test, the one we 0:01:54.440 --> 0:01:58.160 use requires that two characters of a marginalized gender with 0:01:58.400 --> 0:02:01.040 names speak to each other about something other than a 0:02:01.080 --> 0:02:04.520 man for more than two lines of dialogue, and it 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:09.040 should be you know, a plot relevant exchange that would 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:12.760 be nice, and we're we're going to get into it today. 0:02:12.960 --> 0:02:14.960 So let's get our guest in here, a long time 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:18.760 movie request, and it's happening, baby, It's finally here. 0:02:18.919 --> 0:02:23.680 Our guest is an art historian and is currently in 0:02:23.760 --> 0:02:29.560 a PhD program in art and education. So I am 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:32.640 not the person with the highest degree. 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:36.040 Hey, don't be humble. You used to teach paint night you. 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:40.440 Art, Yeah, but I only have a master's. I don't 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:41.280 have a PhD. 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:43.919 That's true. And you do need a master's to do 0:02:44.200 --> 0:02:44.720 paint night. 0:02:45.880 --> 0:02:48.799 You need a PhD to teach paint night class. Sorry, 0:02:48.800 --> 0:02:52.880 I have completely derailed your introduction. But yes, art historian 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:55.880 and in a PhD program in art and education. It's 0:02:55.919 --> 0:02:59.200 an hala campos. Welcome, helone, welcome. Bye. 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:03.000 I'm very happy to be here, so excited. 0:03:02.680 --> 0:03:03.720 So happy to have you. 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:06.160 I still only have a master's degree. 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:08.520 Too, So okay, well that makes me feel better. 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:12.280 I'm currently in the PhD program. So yeah, it's fine, mate, 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:14.160 It's it's okay. Don't worry. We're in the same. 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:21.160 Yeah, I will not be upscaled on my own podcast. No, 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:25.200 So we're talking about Freda, the two thousand and two 0:03:25.200 --> 0:03:30.239 biopic directed by Julie Taymoor starring Salma Hayek, and. 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:32.680 Well, come on, and Alfred Molina. 0:03:32.360 --> 0:03:35.240 And sorry, Alfred, of course, Alfred Molina. 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:39.360 Now hold the damn phone. We can't. Let's not bury 0:03:39.480 --> 0:03:39.760 the wee. 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:43.640 Alfred Molina is in this. 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:46.400 Movie, sorry to erase a male presence. 0:03:46.640 --> 0:03:49.160 Well, as we've said many times on this show, and 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:52.280 it will be complicated in this movie. If Alfred Molina 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:56.040 is speaking, it passes the factel test automatically rules be damned. 0:03:56.160 --> 0:03:59.400 That is yes, yes, Well, we haven't brought up Alfred 0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:00.760 Molina quite some time. 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:04.520 It's because you got married, so I'm moving on. 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:07.560 He's off the market for you. 0:04:07.640 --> 0:04:09.480 Yeah. 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:15.640 Anyways, sorry, So we're talking about Freda and we're curious, Angela, 0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:20.640 what is your relationship with the movie with Frieda Callo 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:24.719 as an artist and historical figure. Tell us everything. 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:28.560 Well, first, I remember watching the movie when I was 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:32.440 way too young to be able to watch it. I 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:35.479 remember that it was I don't know if my mom 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:39.240 had it on DVD or something, but I remember watching 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:43.279 it because especially the scene. I don't want any spoilers yet, 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:48.160 but the scene with the sister traumatized me horribly. Oh yeah, yeah, 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:52.400 So I remember tiny parts of the film in my 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:59.040 unconscious mind, and I never rewatched it until I started 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:04.320 studying artists at eighteen nineteen years old. So, when you're 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:07.880 an art historian, especially in Mexico, you're kind of tired 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:10.599 of Frida Calo. Well, even if you're a Mexican person, 0:05:10.720 --> 0:05:13.599 you're kind of tired of of Frida because she has 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:17.000 been exploited by the capitalist system in a way that 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:19.480 she would have hated being a communist. 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:20.440 No exactly. 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:25.920 Yes, yeah, but she's constantly, constantly in our media, in 0:05:26.080 --> 0:05:31.400 our international propaganda to come to Mexico and the idea 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:34.240 people have of Mexico so as a Mexican is it's 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:38.120 kind of annoying. So people tend to put her away, 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:41.760 no and say, ah, Frida Calo, I don't like her. 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:46.679 No so, And the taboo in art history, I believe 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:50.680 is to like her. So when I had my twentieth 0:05:50.720 --> 0:05:53.920 century art class, because you have other artists from twentieth 0:05:53.960 --> 0:05:58.760 century that are important, like Marie Squiero, not Tina Modotti, 0:05:58.760 --> 0:06:03.040 who is in a movie of course, Remeliosa or Leonora Carlington. 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:06.080 All of these women that surrounded the same a time 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:08.520 and space as Prida Galo tend to be more popular 0:06:08.560 --> 0:06:12.480 within the art history crowd. But then you realize, when 0:06:12.520 --> 0:06:15.760 I had my art history class for the twentieth century, 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:20.080 I really found out the true sense and the true 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:24.479 the importance of fridacal No. Her paintings are not only 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:27.119 this thing of oh I'm so sad, I'm so sick. 0:06:27.640 --> 0:06:31.080 I have a horrible life, which we all complain about constantly. 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:36.800 But it's a thing of how she pioneered something in 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:39.159 art that is so common nowadays, and maybe that's why 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:42.679 we don't notice it or consider it as important because 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:46.120 we have normalized it. But she did it first, and 0:06:46.160 --> 0:06:49.279 it's not about her technique, her esthetic. It's about that 0:06:50.080 --> 0:06:52.719 innovation that she brought to art history. And I found 0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:56.400 that out until I studied the twentieth century in the 0:06:56.480 --> 0:07:01.360 last symesters of my degree, and it was extramely shocking 0:07:01.400 --> 0:07:04.640 because I realized my internalized missa genia against Rida Callo, 0:07:05.040 --> 0:07:09.440 my prejudices against her, and how stereotypes of her had 0:07:09.680 --> 0:07:12.120 shaped the image I had of her, instead of just 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:15.440 letting go and going with the flow and realize myself 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:17.360 if I liked her or not, which is something that 0:07:17.440 --> 0:07:20.640 I also think. S al Mahaik said about her that 0:07:20.720 --> 0:07:24.080 she didn't like her at first, and then she explored 0:07:24.120 --> 0:07:26.320 her and she realized that she was amazing. That's what 0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:30.000 happened to me too. So that's my journey with Ridakalo 0:07:30.080 --> 0:07:33.560 and now I of course love her and yeah, what 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:36.160 about you so interesting? 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:38.200 I mean that, Yeah, I feel like that happens a 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:42.600 lot where something gets mainstream afied. 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:47.120 Yeah, like over it's like saying you like Coldplay. 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:51.480 You're like, exactly, sure you do, but everybody does. 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:54.440 Everybody does, and everybody when they come to Mexico. I 0:07:54.520 --> 0:07:56.680 have cousins in Spain and they're like, I want to 0:07:56.680 --> 0:07:58.640 see Frida. I want to see Frida, And I was like, 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:02.120 they behave, like Frida and Diego are the Sistine Chapel 0:08:02.200 --> 0:08:05.480 or something, And then I realize they are for people 0:08:05.520 --> 0:08:07.760 that aren't from here. And we have normalized going to 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:10.360 be Yes artists and se Diego's murals, we have normalized 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:13.800 being close to Lacasa Soul. We have normalized those things 0:08:13.880 --> 0:08:17.520 about these great artists because we have them at least 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:21.120 in Mexico City, and being very centralist here unfortunately, but 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:23.320 at least in Mexico City, we have them very close 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:28.400 to us. So it's also a thing of re cherishing 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:32.120 what we have in our own art history and realizing 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:38.079 it's it's not just anything that we should skip and 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:41.560 and consider. Oh again, no, it's examly that we should 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:43.520 maybe explore from other perspectives. 0:08:43.679 --> 0:08:49.840 Sometimes things are very well known because they are good, yeah, 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:53.360 and it so rarely happens, but in the case of 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:57.840 Free to Callow, It's true. Yes, Jimmy, how about you? 0:08:57.880 --> 0:08:59.200 What's your history? 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:02.200 I had not seen this movie before for a silly 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:03.240 reason that I will get to. 0:09:03.640 --> 0:09:06.160 But I was introduced to. 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:10.559 Frieda Callo's work through what we're going to talk about today, 0:09:10.600 --> 0:09:15.920 this very sort of sanitized image of who she was. 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:19.720 I probably was introduced to Free to Callo in high school, 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:22.440 like on a pair of socks or something. I like, 0:09:22.480 --> 0:09:25.640 she's a very frequently and like you were saying on 0:09:26.120 --> 0:09:29.440 there's like the fact that her politics mean that she 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:30.400 would fucking hate that. 0:09:32.040 --> 0:09:33.520 But she felt like, Yeah. 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:37.320 This pantheon of frequently reproduced figures that I actually didn't 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:39.960 know much about. You would see her next to like 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:44.160 Einstein and like all of these sort of iconic innovative 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:48.320 people just presented without context for monetary gain. 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:53.480 That's how I learned who she was. And then I. 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:56.200 Did read the book this movie is based on in 0:09:56.320 --> 0:09:59.520 high school, a biography of Free to Callo by Hated Herrera. 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:02.800 I read that in high school and like completely fell 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:05.439 in love with her just out of sight. I have 0:10:05.640 --> 0:10:10.720 a framed print of the two Fridas. Yeah, the more 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:13.679 I learned about her I mean she's still to this day. 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:16.440 I mean it's like a travesty that she's presented, so, 0:10:17.360 --> 0:10:19.360 you know, simply, and I feel like in this way 0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:24.760 that is very white feminism driven, completely lacking context, lacking 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:29.120 her politics, lacking her identity, and lacking her queerness as well, 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:31.959 like which was something I had to learn from a book. 0:10:32.000 --> 0:10:34.600 It wasn't something that was readily being printed about her 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:36.000 when I was in high school. 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:38.079 So I've always been fascinated by her. 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:42.520 I avoided this movie for years because a college professor 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:44.520 who was really mean to me is one of the 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:49.520 credited screenwriters. So for one of so, Diane Lake, I'm 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:53.360 calling your ass out. You were such an asshole to 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:57.480 me in twenty fourteen, and so, I like kind of 0:10:57.600 --> 0:11:02.120 vowed to never watch this movie due to the. 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:04.280 Transgressions of one Diane Lake. 0:11:05.600 --> 0:11:09.600 However, I am very glad that I finally have cause 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:12.400 to watch it because there's so much to talk about. 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:14.160 I'm so curious, but I don't know. 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:17.120 I feel like I'm going to figure out how I 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:19.960 feel about it in real time. I like Julie Taymoor 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:22.280 in general. I think she's a very creative director. 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:25.920 I was one of the cringe fans of across the 0:11:26.040 --> 0:11:30.560 universe me too, good, good, Yeah, I love her. 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:34.160 I still played for my students when we see the 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:38.280 Vietnam War and stuff. I still play something because it's amazing. 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:38.920 I don't care. 0:11:40.720 --> 0:11:42.800 I was like, you had to be there, and if 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:43.480 you were there. 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:45.400 You understand exactly. Yeah. 0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:46.640 Well, we'll talk about her a little bit. 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:49.559 I've also wanted to shout out her funniest credit, which 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:52.000 is the Bad Spider Man music. 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:54.559 Oh yeah, Killing All the Spider. 0:11:54.280 --> 0:11:58.080 Man, the musical that she'll not be named. Yes. 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:03.000 So anyways, I hadn't seen it, and I am very 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:05.559 glad that I did, because it gave me like reason 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:10.120 to revisit her life, which I hadn't in a while. Kaitline, 0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:13.840 what is your history with this film and this political figure. 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:19.479 I had seen the movie before, probably about twenty years ago, 0:12:19.600 --> 0:12:23.079 and I didn't revisit it, although I remember liking it 0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:26.400 at the time, but enough time had passed that I 0:12:26.600 --> 0:12:31.959 forgot almost everything you learn in the movie, and then 0:12:32.000 --> 0:12:37.079 I relearned much of it by visiting the Free to 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:41.560 Callo Museum in Mexico City. I went to La Casasoul 0:12:41.760 --> 0:12:46.000 and I went with friend of the cast Adriana Ortega, 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:50.520 who was on our Youtumama dambiena episode Loved and who 0:12:51.160 --> 0:12:54.000 coincidentally connected us with you Anhela. 0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:55.400 She's just the best. 0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:56.560 Yeah, she's Yeah. 0:12:56.559 --> 0:13:02.200 She took me to the museum and obviously much of 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:04.560 her art is in the museum, as well as like 0:13:05.160 --> 0:13:09.600 different dresses she wore, different outfits she wore throughout her life, 0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:14.520 different kind of medical apparatus that she wore, and I 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:17.680 was like, oh, right, she's dealt with chronic pain throughout 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:21.119 her life. I also relearned that she was a communist. 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:25.079 I relearned that she was bisexual, all this stuff, and 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:28.360 I was like, oh yeah. And then so remembering that 0:13:28.559 --> 0:13:30.800 this was about a year ago that I went to 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:34.240 the museum and relearned all this information, So I was like, 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:37.600 I wonder how much of that is in this biopic, 0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:40.720 because I was like, I bet Hollywood is gonna like 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:42.160 wash a lot of that out. 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:43.080 I thought that. 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:46.160 Her bisexuality would have been sanitized big time. 0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:50.880 But I mean, there are a lot of aspects of 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:53.560 Freda's life, as far as I can tell, that are 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:57.720 somewhat erased or scaled back on in this biopic, But 0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:02.000 it does show more about her than what I would 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:03.839 have expected, because I was like, oh, I bet this 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:09.080 movie like Capitalism washes her political ideology. I bet it 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:13.360 straight washes her queerness, you know, but it it doesn't. 0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:17.160 It doesn't. And we'll talk about that a lot. But yeah, 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:19.600 I really enjoyed going to the museum and learning about it, 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:22.000 and then rewatching this movie. I was like, oh my gosh, 0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:27.000 setting aside things that the movie might again scale back 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:30.120 on or kind of a RaSE about Frida's life, it's 0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:31.400 a really enjoyable movie. 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:32.200 Yeah. 0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:35.280 I find it very fun and entertaining, and I enjoy 0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:39.600 it just as a piece of cinema. And then I 0:14:39.680 --> 0:14:42.880 also I didn't finish it. I have about twenty minutes left. 0:14:43.040 --> 0:14:51.520 But there's a documentary called Freeda that came out recently, yeah, 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:57.760 on Prime that takes excerpts from her diary, from letters 0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:01.880 she wrote, correspondences from other figures in her life, including 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:05.880 Diego Rivera and other friends and lovers of hers and 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:09.040 their diaries, and it just has all this sort of 0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:14.000 like voice over photographs of her, video of her, I 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:18.000 guess film film footage of her, obviously her works of art, 0:15:18.560 --> 0:15:20.920 and so that provides a little bit more context. So 0:15:20.920 --> 0:15:24.000 I learned some more stuff from that, and uh, yeah, 0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:28.360 I really appreciate free to call it as an artist 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:31.600 and historical figure. And I like the movie a lot, 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:35.760 but there's lots to talk about. Yes, so let's take 0:15:35.800 --> 0:15:38.560 a quick break and then we'll come back and get 0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:40.440 into the recap. 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:52.840 And we're back. We're back. Shall we get into the 0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:53.880 flim the movie. 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:56.720 I just was like, I'm kind of panicking about but 0:15:56.760 --> 0:15:59.000 you know what, I just I need Diane like to 0:15:59.000 --> 0:15:59.680 know how I feel. 0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:01.840 Let's leave it in. Let's leave it in. 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:06.400 I could bleep out the name if you wanted to. 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:10.400 I guess that there are four credited writers on this movie, 0:16:10.440 --> 0:16:13.720 and I guess an uncredited scriptwrite from Edward Norton, which 0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:16.400 I don't even know if I want to talk about. 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:19.120 I was like, when you learn a fact and you're like, 0:16:19.200 --> 0:16:21.800 h I don't know if I can engage with that 0:16:21.840 --> 0:16:24.360 fact right anyways, No. 0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:27.520 Leave it in, Okay, We'll leave it in. Okay. So 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:32.080 the movie opens on Frida Callo as an older adult 0:16:32.520 --> 0:16:36.480 near the end of her life. She's in bed which 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:40.400 is being loaded onto a truck. We will find out 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:44.440 why because this pays off later in the movie. Then 0:16:44.480 --> 0:16:48.120 we flash back to nineteen twenty two in Mexico City. 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:51.400 Frida is a teenager. I think she would have been 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:56.600 around fifteen years old at the time renowned artist Diego 0:16:56.680 --> 0:17:00.400 Rivera played by A one Alfred Molina. 0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:04.040 Oh Fort Molina. I will say, I love Salamahayak so much. 0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:07.840 It was so distracting watching her be fifteen years old. 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:09.800 Truly. 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:12.720 She was doing this like I don't know, like taking 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:16.160 this childlike stance. Yeah, just get a different actor. It's 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:17.360 just a couple scenes. 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:20.560 I mean, was in her thirties when she recorded a film, 0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:22.480 So it's like, yeah, that's strich. 0:17:22.720 --> 0:17:25.920 Yeah, very very movie like it happens all the time. 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:30.240 But the cut too, is severe. It was like whoa, okay, cool. 0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:32.640 It reminded me of an episode of like Penn fifteen 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:34.479 kind of it was giving Penn fifteen. 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:34.879 Yeah. 0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:35.120 Yeah. 0:17:35.480 --> 0:17:40.040 Anyways, so Diego Rivera is at her school painting a 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:43.359 nude portrait of a woman with whom he's also having 0:17:43.400 --> 0:17:47.320 an affair, and Frida and her friends sneak in too 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:51.240 watch him work. One of these friends is her boyfriend 0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:53.600 Alejandro aka Alex. 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:55.640 Played by baby Diego Luna. 0:17:56.600 --> 0:18:00.840 Oh love to see him. So, Jamie, You're lifelong crush 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:05.679 is in the movie, and my more recent crush, Diego 0:18:05.760 --> 0:18:09.720 Luna is in the movie. So the boys are there. 0:18:10.119 --> 0:18:16.640 He's Mexico's crush too. Yeah, human guy. Oh my god, 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:18.320 Mexico's proudest moment. 0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:21.159 That's another there being Caitlin crush. 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:27.320 Yeah, they're my boys. Okay, So they are together, Frida 0:18:27.440 --> 0:18:31.640 and Alex. Then we see Frida's childhood home. We meet 0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:36.600 her mother, her father who is a painter and photographer, 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:41.160 her sister Christina played by Mia Maestro, and she's about 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:43.679 to get married. So they're gearing up for the wedding. 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:48.800 One day, Frida and Alex are on a bus. This 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:53.760 is when she was eighteen years old, discussing politics and Marxism. 0:18:54.800 --> 0:19:01.000 The bus crashes, leaving Frida with several serious injuries broken bones, 0:19:01.160 --> 0:19:05.280 her pelvis was impaled by the handrail of the bus, 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:10.160 and she has several operations in this Really I think 0:19:10.240 --> 0:19:12.920 cool stop motion animation sequence. 0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:15.560 Yeah, for a time, you see like a biopic about 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:18.440 an artist and it doesn't even attempt to like bring 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:20.440 in their craft into the filmmaking. 0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:22.240 I was so glad they did that. It looked really cool. 0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:22.960 Yeah, for sure. 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:26.200 Yeah, and it was very Julie de Marco that too, Like, yes, 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:30.080 the whole esthetic of that of that scene because in 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:34.040 a crossing universe, for example, she does similar things. And 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:37.920 I also love that they use the skulls the calacas 0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:42.159 because of the relationship with Rita's idea of that, but 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:45.760 also Mexican typical art very cool. 0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:51.960 So she's in recovery for a long time after the accident. 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:56.320 Doctors are uncertain if she'll ever walk again. One day, 0:19:56.359 --> 0:20:00.600 Alex comes in and tells Frida that he's moving to Europe, 0:20:01.080 --> 0:20:05.320 so they effectively break up and Frida is devastated. And 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:10.200 then while she's recuperating, her parents gift her painting supplies 0:20:10.560 --> 0:20:13.480 and they install a mirror on the ceiling of her 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:16.840 four poster bed so that she can paint self portraits. 0:20:17.320 --> 0:20:20.879 So she starts painting a lot, and eventually she starts 0:20:20.920 --> 0:20:27.000 walking again, and one day she approaches Diego Rivera and 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:31.720 shows her paintings to him and wants his professional opinion 0:20:31.800 --> 0:20:35.400 because she's hoping to make a career out of painting 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:39.280 to make money and help support her family. They have 0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:42.959 substantial medical bills that have piled up from all of 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:49.720 these operations, and Diego Rivera is like, wowie wow a wooga, 0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:53.840 you're a great painter and your work is very original 0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:59.320 and it's terrific. And so he becomes a mentor to 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:03.280 her and kind of takes her under his wing. He 0:21:03.640 --> 0:21:07.360 brings her to a party full of artists and political activists. 0:21:08.000 --> 0:21:12.600 They're talking about you know, socialism and communism and drinking 0:21:12.760 --> 0:21:14.959 and you know stuff that you do at a party. 0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:19.840 One of those parties, right, Antonio Benders is there as 0:21:20.080 --> 0:21:24.880 the Videlfarro Cicios. He and Diego are like frenemies. 0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:26.600 Yeah. 0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:29.760 I never thought i'd see the day where Alfred Blina 0:21:29.840 --> 0:21:32.639 and Antonio bender has got into a physical altercation. 0:21:32.960 --> 0:21:34.800 But today was that day. 0:21:35.119 --> 0:21:38.920 By the way, a very big favor by casting Antonio 0:21:38.920 --> 0:21:39.720 and they just let. 0:21:39.600 --> 0:21:42.800 Me say that, oh is because is he not? 0:21:43.440 --> 0:21:46.040 Yeah, he didn't look like that. No, no, no, all. 0:21:48.520 --> 0:21:52.280 I mean Alfred Blina is casting of Diego Rivera like 0:21:52.400 --> 0:21:52.760 it was. 0:21:52.720 --> 0:21:55.879 Also a favor for yes. 0:21:55.880 --> 0:22:00.919 The biopic treatment in the biop at least. 0:22:01.119 --> 0:22:04.480 Yeah, So we're at this party. Ashley Judd is also 0:22:04.480 --> 0:22:10.679 there playing Tina Medotti, who was an Italian American photographer, model, actor, 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:15.560 political activist, she and Freda do a sexy dance and 0:22:15.600 --> 0:22:21.080 have a little kiss together. Meanwhile, Diego is trying to 0:22:21.119 --> 0:22:26.040 sleep with Freda. He is a known womanizer, and she's like, 0:22:26.760 --> 0:22:30.040 I'm not gonna sleep with you, dude, and he's like, okay, fair, 0:22:30.600 --> 0:22:34.360 We'll just be comrades, colleagues and friends, but we'll never 0:22:34.400 --> 0:22:35.240 sleep with each other. 0:22:35.359 --> 0:22:37.560 And that gets her horny, and then. 0:22:37.480 --> 0:22:42.760 They immediately they immediately start making out and having sex. 0:22:43.119 --> 0:22:45.320 I do love that Freda from the very beginning of 0:22:45.359 --> 0:22:48.520 this movie is canonically horny, because that also seems to 0:22:48.600 --> 0:22:49.600 be historically true. 0:22:50.200 --> 0:22:57.760 Yes, yes, very horny person who had many affairs. 0:22:57.880 --> 0:23:03.159 Truly a murderer's row list of lovers, extramarital affairs like 0:23:03.480 --> 0:23:04.200 she had Paul. 0:23:04.640 --> 0:23:10.200 Yeah, yeah, goals, you know, incredible, Yeah, my goals. At least, 0:23:11.800 --> 0:23:15.920 so time passes, Freda and Diego fall in love. They 0:23:15.960 --> 0:23:19.680 get married, though her mother disapproves of the marriage because 0:23:19.800 --> 0:23:23.879 Diego Rivera is an atheist and a communist. Frida also 0:23:23.920 --> 0:23:28.479 has doubts about her relationship with Diego. We see at 0:23:28.520 --> 0:23:33.440 the wedding Diego's ex wife, Lupe Marine played by Valeria Golino, 0:23:34.280 --> 0:23:38.840 causes a scene she insults Frieda. Frida gets upset that 0:23:38.880 --> 0:23:42.600 Diego doesn't defend her. It's day one of them being 0:23:42.640 --> 0:23:46.920 married and already not off to a great start. 0:23:46.680 --> 0:23:48.160 Or at all. Yeah. 0:23:48.480 --> 0:23:52.280 Then Frida finds out that Lupe lives right above Diego's 0:23:52.359 --> 0:23:56.760 apartment with the children they have together, which infuriates Frida 0:23:56.840 --> 0:23:59.840 at first, but then she and Loupe start like hanging 0:23:59.840 --> 0:24:02.840 out out and Lupe teaches Frida how to make her 0:24:02.960 --> 0:24:09.920 molay recipe, and she tells Frida about Diego Afferre's various infidelities, 0:24:10.359 --> 0:24:14.560 and this pattern of behavior does not change with Freida. 0:24:15.000 --> 0:24:21.600 No imagine that a man that changing impossible? Yeah, wun't you? 0:24:24.080 --> 0:24:28.280 So Frida finds out about his many affairs, often with 0:24:28.640 --> 0:24:33.640 the models he paints portraits of. There's also a political 0:24:33.760 --> 0:24:37.600 undercurrent to the film, as previously kind of hinted at. 0:24:37.680 --> 0:24:42.440 But Diego has painted a socialist portrait in a government 0:24:42.440 --> 0:24:46.199 building in Mexico City, but his party thinks he's a 0:24:46.240 --> 0:24:50.680 trader because he's like making art for a bourgeois government. 0:24:51.040 --> 0:24:53.880 So there's like this push and pull there. 0:24:54.600 --> 0:24:58.400 He's making art for Edward Norton Rockefeller, which was yes, 0:24:59.440 --> 0:25:01.879 the most interesting jump scare in this movie for me 0:25:02.040 --> 0:25:02.960 where you're like, what. 0:25:02.800 --> 0:25:04.680 The hell are you doing here? 0:25:07.480 --> 0:25:10.280 I had a similar jump scare with Ashley Judd. Oh yeah, 0:25:10.359 --> 0:25:13.000 I was like, uh yeah, what is she doing here? 0:25:13.119 --> 0:25:16.119 I was expecting an Italian actress or something, and they 0:25:16.240 --> 0:25:18.400 actually judge showed up right right. 0:25:18.440 --> 0:25:21.919 Well, isn't Valeria Galino an Italian actress? 0:25:21.920 --> 0:25:24.120 Wouldn't she is the one who plays Slooper Marino. 0:25:24.440 --> 0:25:25.000 Yeah? 0:25:25.080 --> 0:25:28.040 Yeah, she probably would have made more sense in that 0:25:28.160 --> 0:25:32.960 role anyway. So that's about to happen where Frida and 0:25:33.000 --> 0:25:36.280 Diego go to New York for a solo exhibition of 0:25:36.359 --> 0:25:40.719 Diego's Diego then paints a mural in the Rockefeller Building. 0:25:41.640 --> 0:25:46.879 Edward Norton is playing like Rockefeller Junior. Frida's voiceover is 0:25:46.920 --> 0:25:50.919 talking about the class disparity and poverty she sees in 0:25:51.280 --> 0:25:55.359 New York. This is also highlighted in that documentary. I 0:25:55.440 --> 0:25:58.639 was referencing the way she talks about New York, the 0:25:58.680 --> 0:26:01.720 way she talks about like rich Americans especially, She's like, 0:26:01.800 --> 0:26:05.720 these motherfuckers are the most boring losers I've ever met. 0:26:06.440 --> 0:26:09.000 She talks about like having visited Harlem and how it 0:26:09.040 --> 0:26:13.080 was such a beautiful, vibrant neighborhood that reminded her of 0:26:13.200 --> 0:26:17.040 neighborhoods in Mexico City, like the way she describes New 0:26:17.119 --> 0:26:21.080 York I found very funny. Anyway. Diego continues to be 0:26:21.200 --> 0:26:25.280 unfaithful to Freda on this trip, but Frida is also 0:26:26.240 --> 0:26:30.040 having affairs. We see her with a woman who Diego 0:26:30.119 --> 0:26:35.919 head also slept with. Then Frida reveals to Diego that 0:26:36.160 --> 0:26:41.680 she's gregnant, although he expresses concern about her body being 0:26:41.720 --> 0:26:46.000 able to handle a pregnancy because of the injury she sustained, 0:26:46.840 --> 0:26:50.840 and sure enough, she has a miscarriage and is rushed 0:26:50.840 --> 0:26:55.120 to the hospital. Her miscarriage inspires some of her paintings. 0:26:55.880 --> 0:27:00.560 It's obviously very devastating to her also, and around this 0:27:00.600 --> 0:27:05.960 time that Frieda's mother falls ill and passes away. Diego 0:27:06.040 --> 0:27:09.960 is still in New York doing this Rockefeller Building painting, 0:27:11.000 --> 0:27:15.960 and he has put Vladimir Lenin into the mural, and 0:27:16.000 --> 0:27:19.520 some people are like woo hoo, hero, and then all 0:27:19.520 --> 0:27:22.880 the capitalists are like, boo, take that out of there, 0:27:23.840 --> 0:27:28.400 but Diego refuses to compromise his vision, so he's fired 0:27:28.520 --> 0:27:33.560 from this commission and the painting is destroyed, which enrages Diego. 0:27:34.160 --> 0:27:38.680 They return home to Mexico, where he feels like restless 0:27:38.760 --> 0:27:42.360 and creatively unfulfilled, and he resents being back in Mexico 0:27:42.800 --> 0:27:46.240 he was having a great time in New York. And 0:27:46.560 --> 0:27:49.120 it's kind of throughout the movie, but it's especially around 0:27:49.119 --> 0:27:53.399 this point where I'm like, what about Frieda's art, Like 0:27:53.560 --> 0:27:54.280 we see more of that? 0:27:54.880 --> 0:27:58.480 Yeah, because he was also very resentful against her because 0:27:58.960 --> 0:28:02.720 they returned Mexico because she was homesick. That was his 0:28:03.040 --> 0:28:06.120 idm oh so, so he's like, Nah, this is your 0:28:06.160 --> 0:28:10.520 fault that we're here. Yeah, and yeah, she says something 0:28:10.600 --> 0:28:13.280 along the lines of I want to return to that 0:28:13.880 --> 0:28:17.399 artist that you were painting, Maggie, Yes, and not being 0:28:17.440 --> 0:28:19.600 a pompos guy in brockefit. 0:28:19.640 --> 0:28:22.320 Corporate chill, yeah, capitalist stooge. 0:28:23.520 --> 0:28:25.840 Right. I that just not as well, Kaitlyn. 0:28:26.119 --> 0:28:28.480 I was curious what others thought about it, were like, 0:28:29.359 --> 0:28:32.520 I feel like we see a lot of Frida's paintings, 0:28:32.880 --> 0:28:36.439 you know, brought to life through these stop motion animations 0:28:36.640 --> 0:28:40.440 that Samahayak is very frequently in, and they're presented, but 0:28:40.640 --> 0:28:45.400 like it's not fully contextualized what is motivating them? And 0:28:45.440 --> 0:28:47.760 I wish that there was a little more, especially in 0:28:47.800 --> 0:28:51.720 a biopic about an artist, to like have a fuller 0:28:51.800 --> 0:28:56.360 idea of what was inspiring these pieces, because I loved 0:28:56.400 --> 0:28:58.880 the visuals of it, but it felt like a little 0:28:59.040 --> 0:29:01.600 less focused on her art than I would have liked. 0:29:02.040 --> 0:29:03.800 Yeah, and we'll talk more about it. But that was 0:29:03.800 --> 0:29:06.960 something I definitely noticed throughout the movie. 0:29:07.360 --> 0:29:10.160 But I also know that, like in her lifetime, her 0:29:10.280 --> 0:29:13.480 art career was not sufficiently like Diego Rivera's art career 0:29:13.520 --> 0:29:15.120 always got precedence over hers too. 0:29:15.160 --> 0:29:17.080 I don't know, yeah, right, and. 0:29:17.000 --> 0:29:20.680 This was a systemic issue in Mexican and art ya exactly. 0:29:20.760 --> 0:29:24.400 My thing is, well, if that was like where his 0:29:24.840 --> 0:29:29.080 art was always like overshadowing hers, like, shouldn't the movie 0:29:29.120 --> 0:29:32.520 like call more attention to that and like address that. Yeah, 0:29:32.560 --> 0:29:38.360 examine the systemic patriarchal, sexist context for that, anyway, we'll 0:29:38.360 --> 0:29:42.680 talk more about it. So then Freda hires her sister, Christina, 0:29:43.320 --> 0:29:48.040 who had recently left her abusive husband, to help out 0:29:48.160 --> 0:29:53.720 in Diego's studio. Diego and Christina promptly have sex, which 0:29:53.760 --> 0:29:58.280 is like the ultimate betrayal to Frida. She I don't 0:29:58.320 --> 0:30:01.040 know if tolerated was the right word, but she put 0:30:01.160 --> 0:30:05.080 up with his infidelities, but this was like the last 0:30:05.120 --> 0:30:08.560 straw him sleeping with her sister, So she leaves Diego 0:30:08.680 --> 0:30:11.160 and she stops talking to her sister for a while. 0:30:12.160 --> 0:30:15.120 Frieda moves back into the house she grew up in. 0:30:15.600 --> 0:30:18.160 She cuts off all her hair, making her the baldest 0:30:18.200 --> 0:30:24.000 woman in charge. She starts dressing androgynously some of the time, 0:30:24.040 --> 0:30:26.680 which is something we've seen her do already different times 0:30:26.680 --> 0:30:30.080 throughout the film. It's also clear that she's having trouble 0:30:30.320 --> 0:30:34.600 supporting herself. She considers selling some of her paintings, but 0:30:35.080 --> 0:30:39.040 comments are made about how they don't have enough commercial 0:30:39.080 --> 0:30:44.440 appeal sort of thing. Then Diego approaches Frieda asking if 0:30:44.440 --> 0:30:49.400 she'll house Leon Trotsky played by Jeffrey Rush and his 0:30:50.080 --> 0:30:54.680 wife Natalia, who have been granted asylum in Mexico after 0:30:54.720 --> 0:30:58.600 being exiled from the Soviet Union and then from Norway. 0:30:58.680 --> 0:31:03.920 I think, and Frida agrees. So Trotsky moves in and 0:31:04.560 --> 0:31:08.720 he takes to Frida. Immediately, he marvels her paintings. He 0:31:09.480 --> 0:31:15.880 really likes her, and they start having an affair. They 0:31:16.000 --> 0:31:21.880 also visit some pyramids, yes where I also went on 0:31:21.920 --> 0:31:26.480 that same trip to Mexico City, and they're stunning, but 0:31:26.640 --> 0:31:29.520 I was like, wow, I recognize these places. I went 0:31:29.560 --> 0:31:34.600 there and so this affair is ongoing between Frida and Trotsky. 0:31:35.080 --> 0:31:39.040 Natalia finds out about it, so she and Trotsky move out, 0:31:39.320 --> 0:31:42.960 which is dangerous for them, and an assassination attempt is made, 0:31:43.080 --> 0:31:46.960 although Trotsky survives it this one at least. 0:31:47.840 --> 0:31:50.840 Just a quick note that I found out earlier that 0:31:51.120 --> 0:31:56.480 the actress who plays Natalia Trotzky's wife, and Salamahayek had 0:31:56.520 --> 0:32:01.880 worked together Indlos Milos, Mexican Away from nineteen ninety five previously. 0:32:02.280 --> 0:32:05.560 Oh well, yeah, yeah, so in this film their enemies 0:32:05.600 --> 0:32:08.200 of course, because she ends up hating Frida Calo for 0:32:08.280 --> 0:32:11.240 sleeping with her husband, but they had previously worked together 0:32:11.320 --> 0:32:14.360 in a very good Mexican film. Yeah, that's so cool. 0:32:14.760 --> 0:32:18.240 Yeah, I'll have to check that one out. So then 0:32:18.800 --> 0:32:22.920 Frida goes to Paris for an exhibition of hers. 0:32:23.200 --> 0:32:25.840 And the only people she hates more than Americans are 0:32:25.840 --> 0:32:30.000 French fields, which is that seems. 0:32:29.680 --> 0:32:32.120 To be you know, the order of operations there. 0:32:34.240 --> 0:32:38.560 And she's writing letters to Diego saying that she misses 0:32:38.640 --> 0:32:41.200 him and she does want to be with him after all, 0:32:42.040 --> 0:32:44.560 but the next time they see each other, he asks 0:32:44.680 --> 0:32:49.760 for a divorce. Trotsky is then eventually murdered and the 0:32:50.160 --> 0:32:52.880 Mexican government thinks that Diego had something to do with it, 0:32:53.240 --> 0:32:57.400 and so they interrogate Frida, asking where Diego is, but 0:32:57.480 --> 0:33:01.920 she won't cooperate, so she's arrested and put in jail. 0:33:02.560 --> 0:33:06.320 I think is what happens here. Her sister Christina bails 0:33:06.360 --> 0:33:09.360 her out and then they make up. Frida's health has 0:33:09.520 --> 0:33:12.560 started to decline around this point. Some of her toes 0:33:12.600 --> 0:33:17.760 are amputated after they're discovered to be gangrenous, And the 0:33:17.800 --> 0:33:20.240 movie doesn't make this super clear, but I think she's 0:33:20.520 --> 0:33:26.479 had additional operations and again is suffering from chronic pain. 0:33:27.040 --> 0:33:30.320 Diego comes back and wants to get married again, and 0:33:30.360 --> 0:33:33.240 at first Frida's like, I don't need your pity. I 0:33:33.240 --> 0:33:35.200 don't need you to save me, and he's like, I'm 0:33:35.280 --> 0:33:39.480 the one who needs saving. So they get married again, 0:33:39.960 --> 0:33:43.720 and by now it's I think nineteen fifty three, she 0:33:43.800 --> 0:33:48.000 finally has her first solo exhibition of her paintings in 0:33:48.080 --> 0:33:51.160 her own country, something that she's been waiting for her 0:33:51.160 --> 0:33:54.360 whole life. But she's too ill to leave her. 0:33:54.200 --> 0:33:56.920 Bed because she had her leg amputated. Two in nineteen 0:33:56.960 --> 0:33:58.880 fifty three. 0:33:58.480 --> 0:34:02.040 Right, which is like somewhat clear in the movie. 0:34:02.160 --> 0:34:04.520 Yeah, because she takes the leg now. 0:34:05.880 --> 0:34:07.400 Yeah, She's like, give me my leg back. 0:34:08.160 --> 0:34:08.480 Yeah. 0:34:09.360 --> 0:34:12.839 So Diego goes to this exhibition on her behalf. He 0:34:12.920 --> 0:34:15.800 gives a monologue about her work as an artist. 0:34:15.960 --> 0:34:19.080 Big movie moment that also happened. 0:34:19.040 --> 0:34:23.120 Happened in real life where Frida shows up. She has 0:34:23.160 --> 0:34:27.400 had people carry her in in bed so that she 0:34:27.520 --> 0:34:30.960 can enjoy the event, but you know, obeyed the doctor's 0:34:31.080 --> 0:34:35.720 orders of like not leaving her bed. And then shortly 0:34:35.840 --> 0:34:41.240 after this she passes away on July thirteenth, nineteen fifty four. 0:34:42.280 --> 0:34:44.920 So that's the movie. Let's take another quick break and 0:34:44.960 --> 0:34:58.279 then we'll come back to discuss and we're back. One 0:34:58.320 --> 0:35:01.560 of the main things that I I am curious about 0:35:02.040 --> 0:35:05.960 Angela is as far as what we know about Frida Carlos' 0:35:06.280 --> 0:35:10.799 life and art and political positions and all of that, 0:35:11.920 --> 0:35:16.600 how does it compare to what is shown in the movie. 0:35:17.040 --> 0:35:21.800 And are there important things about Frida that were left 0:35:21.840 --> 0:35:24.960 out or glossed over in this biopic. 0:35:25.520 --> 0:35:30.520 I believe generally she was depicted very accurately because Almachayk 0:35:30.640 --> 0:35:36.080 was very passionate about this. She even contacted Dolores Olmelo, 0:35:36.600 --> 0:35:41.480 who was the last lover and the person who, aside 0:35:41.600 --> 0:35:47.120 from his kids, held Diego Riveda's inheritance and Frida Carlos artwork. 0:35:47.760 --> 0:35:50.320 So she was a very rich woman and there was 0:35:50.360 --> 0:35:52.840 a museum that recently closed in the south of Mexico 0:35:52.880 --> 0:35:56.640 City that had all her collections and stuff. But Salmachayik 0:35:56.840 --> 0:35:59.919 contacted this woman and asked her for permission to put 0:36:00.080 --> 0:36:03.480 Frida's paintings in the film, and sal Machaik, I think, 0:36:03.560 --> 0:36:06.040 was very passionate about this project, so she didn't want 0:36:06.080 --> 0:36:09.719 to depict Rida Calo in a way that wasn't truthful. 0:36:10.880 --> 0:36:14.920 But again, it has some things that are immediately not true, 0:36:15.080 --> 0:36:17.160 like the fact that all the dialogue is in English 0:36:17.200 --> 0:36:22.400 and they try to include some Spanish in a sometimes 0:36:22.440 --> 0:36:26.040 in a forced way, and like stereotypical Mexican way, I think. 0:36:26.640 --> 0:36:29.120 But I think that the spirit of Rida Calo is 0:36:29.800 --> 0:36:33.000 very well represented in the terms of her being a rebel. 0:36:33.719 --> 0:36:36.000 Every time they say she cannot do something, she finds 0:36:36.040 --> 0:36:38.960 a way or a loophole to do it. The horny 0:36:39.000 --> 0:36:43.400 aspect that you were mentioning, no or I think what 0:36:43.600 --> 0:36:48.840 is very washed down is how violent Diego was towards 0:36:48.920 --> 0:36:53.880 Frida in his relationship with her, because it's still very romantic. 0:36:54.080 --> 0:36:57.880 I understand that it's from Frida's perspective, which was very romanticized, 0:36:57.920 --> 0:37:01.520 and her idea of him. Never she never realized how 0:37:01.600 --> 0:37:05.279 violent it was what he did to her, But it 0:37:05.360 --> 0:37:07.520 could have been more critical in that way because it 0:37:07.640 --> 0:37:10.839 was terrible. He was a very very bad man, and 0:37:11.280 --> 0:37:15.280 not only towards Frida. Earlier on, I mentioned other Mexican 0:37:15.440 --> 0:37:18.520 female artists from this time, including Marie Squeredo, who was 0:37:19.600 --> 0:37:23.000 If we use intersectionality as a tool for this, we 0:37:23.040 --> 0:37:25.360 can see that she has a higher level of dissidence 0:37:25.360 --> 0:37:29.120 and because she was a brown woman, for example, she 0:37:29.280 --> 0:37:33.520 was racialist. And Marie Quero wanted to paint murals and 0:37:33.560 --> 0:37:36.880 she was extremely targeted, but she could only paint canvas 0:37:36.880 --> 0:37:42.080 paintings because Cicos and Rivera never let women have public 0:37:42.120 --> 0:37:46.319 spaces for muralism, which is very interesting because there is 0:37:46.360 --> 0:37:49.640 a book called Lipse la Tlunas by Dina co Misenko, 0:37:50.000 --> 0:37:54.399 a researcher that basically discovered female muralists in Mexico who 0:37:54.920 --> 0:37:58.600 did paint, but they granted them small spaces. Now instead 0:37:58.600 --> 0:38:03.360 of the big lace where the president holds his and 0:38:03.480 --> 0:38:06.880 now hers because we will not have female president speeches. 0:38:07.520 --> 0:38:12.279 They gave them the little building in the little part 0:38:12.320 --> 0:38:15.680 of town that nobody actually saw. No, And this was 0:38:15.680 --> 0:38:18.279 because of a monopoly that these guys had, these men 0:38:18.400 --> 0:38:22.080 had in muralism in Mexico. And also it has to 0:38:22.120 --> 0:38:26.279 do with the rivetas incoherence with his political discourse and 0:38:26.320 --> 0:38:31.920 his political beliefs, because Fridaclo was much more coherent than him. 0:38:32.120 --> 0:38:36.000 She never sold out, let's say, and the Oribta was 0:38:36.360 --> 0:38:39.760 coherent only when he could be kind of dramatic about it, 0:38:39.960 --> 0:38:44.240 like with the Rockefeller thing. There he decided, no, no, no, 0:38:44.280 --> 0:38:47.399 I have to follow my ideology and I will never 0:38:48.040 --> 0:38:51.279 back down. But then why did you go there in 0:38:51.320 --> 0:38:54.359 the first place if you're such a communist, right. 0:38:54.320 --> 0:38:57.080 It always felt like a pr thing. 0:38:57.160 --> 0:39:00.760 From his Yeah, yeah, like deciding halfway through painting something 0:39:00.760 --> 0:39:04.000 for Elon Musk, like, actually I don't like this guy. 0:39:04.080 --> 0:39:06.120 You're like, well, we are. 0:39:06.120 --> 0:39:07.879 Here and he already paid you. 0:39:07.960 --> 0:39:11.439 Yeah. So he was kicked out of the Communist Party 0:39:11.480 --> 0:39:16.000 from Mexico three times because of these incoherences. And Freda 0:39:16.760 --> 0:39:21.759 was much more strong in this sense too. And I 0:39:21.800 --> 0:39:24.359 think that all of those little nuances I mean, it's 0:39:24.360 --> 0:39:26.279 a film. It's a two hour film. You can really 0:39:26.280 --> 0:39:29.640 depict them exactly, but there are little details that I 0:39:29.680 --> 0:39:33.440 think would enrich this general idea we have a freedom 0:39:33.440 --> 0:39:37.799 and make her even more of an admirable character like 0:39:38.000 --> 0:39:40.640 we see her when we find out all of these nuances. 0:39:41.880 --> 0:39:44.880 Thank you for contextualizing that better, because I think that 0:39:44.880 --> 0:39:46.680 that also speaks to Kaitlyn what you were saying a 0:39:46.719 --> 0:39:50.920 little earlier about While we see a lot of her work, 0:39:51.080 --> 0:39:54.239 the context of how welcome women were or were not 0:39:54.600 --> 0:39:57.919 into art in Mexico and the US at the time 0:39:58.040 --> 0:40:01.160 isn't fully explore in a way that I feel like 0:40:01.760 --> 0:40:04.520 would make sense to do in this movie. 0:40:05.360 --> 0:40:07.600 And I also, I mean, I found. 0:40:07.360 --> 0:40:11.200 A quote from Diego Rivera because I remember from reading 0:40:11.200 --> 0:40:14.600 this book all these years ago that the abuse that 0:40:14.760 --> 0:40:18.520 he subjected to her and others was horrific, And I 0:40:18.680 --> 0:40:22.200 was like, one of the disappointing elements of the movie, 0:40:22.239 --> 0:40:24.479 or I think the most disappointing element of the movie 0:40:24.480 --> 0:40:28.279 to me was kind of making the Hollywood choice to 0:40:28.520 --> 0:40:32.880 have the action of the movie we're following Frida's life, 0:40:32.880 --> 0:40:36.719 but the most important thing we're following, according to the movie, 0:40:36.760 --> 0:40:40.720 as her relationship with Diego, which obviously that's complicated because 0:40:41.600 --> 0:40:44.520 it was one of the most deeply important relationships of 0:40:44.560 --> 0:40:47.880 her life. Anyways, here's this quote I found from Rivera 0:40:48.080 --> 0:40:50.960 that sort of bears this out. He said, if I 0:40:50.960 --> 0:40:53.200 ever loved a woman, the more I loved her, the 0:40:53.200 --> 0:40:56.200 more I wanted to hurt her. Frida was only the 0:40:56.239 --> 0:40:58.960 most obvious victim of this disgusting trait. 0:40:59.800 --> 0:41:02.960 So he also stated himself. 0:41:02.520 --> 0:41:06.040 Like, don't do it right right. 0:41:06.560 --> 0:41:09.080 Well, one of the things that I thought was interesting 0:41:09.120 --> 0:41:11.080 because I went back and fact checked this because I 0:41:11.120 --> 0:41:12.799 was like, what a weird line of dialogue if this 0:41:12.920 --> 0:41:15.640 was made up. But he says early in the movie 0:41:16.120 --> 0:41:19.319 essentially when he says like, if we get married, it 0:41:19.360 --> 0:41:23.280 will have to be an open marriage because I can't 0:41:23.520 --> 0:41:28.239 do anything else. And he says like, oh yeah, I 0:41:28.239 --> 0:41:30.520 talked to this doctor and he said I'm like, I 0:41:30.560 --> 0:41:34.160 can't do monogaby, which is like the most scumbag thing 0:41:34.160 --> 0:41:36.920 he could possibly say, And it turns out that actually happened. 0:41:37.120 --> 0:41:40.880 He yeah, the real if Diego Rivera talked to some 0:41:41.080 --> 0:41:43.560 doctor at a party and he was like, yeah, you're 0:41:43.640 --> 0:41:45.920 diagnosed as always going to cheat. 0:41:47.480 --> 0:41:51.919 Well, coming at it from a polyamorous standpoint, like, he's 0:41:52.040 --> 0:41:55.920 clearly someone who was inclined toward polyamory, and it seems 0:41:55.960 --> 0:42:00.919 as though despite Friedo's affairs, seems like she was only 0:42:00.960 --> 0:42:05.160 having those because she knew that Diego was in response 0:42:05.239 --> 0:42:10.080 to Yeah, exactly. So that's what tends to happen when 0:42:10.280 --> 0:42:14.000 a polyamorous person and a monogamous person get together, is 0:42:14.040 --> 0:42:16.240 that it doesn't quite work. 0:42:17.280 --> 0:42:21.040 But well, I'm not trying to like make any sort 0:42:21.080 --> 0:42:25.240 of disparaging statement towards polyamory, for sure, like Diego Rivera 0:42:25.360 --> 0:42:26.879 was an abuser like that. 0:42:27.520 --> 0:42:31.800 Yeah, to be clear, being polyamorous and being an abuser 0:42:31.840 --> 0:42:34.600 and a liar and not honoring the type of relationship 0:42:34.600 --> 0:42:37.440 your partner wants are two very separate things. And I 0:42:37.440 --> 0:42:41.200 don't want to conflate ethical non monogamy with any kind 0:42:41.239 --> 0:42:45.040 of partner abuse because there was nothing ethical about what 0:42:45.120 --> 0:42:48.120 Diego Rivera was doing in his relationship. 0:42:48.480 --> 0:42:52.719 Yeah, and most relationships at that time in art in 0:42:52.800 --> 0:42:56.000 Mexico had that for that. That's why she's so amazing 0:42:56.040 --> 0:43:02.000 because she portrayed these personal, very personal pain and suffering 0:43:02.080 --> 0:43:05.800 and process. But it was a political statement too, because 0:43:05.800 --> 0:43:12.120 she understood power relations and she understood disparity in gender, 0:43:12.239 --> 0:43:18.000 and she understood how hurtful a binary system was because 0:43:18.040 --> 0:43:21.160 she was also, like you said, very androgenous in some 0:43:21.320 --> 0:43:24.600 points of her life. And she understood these things and 0:43:25.440 --> 0:43:28.560 she depicts them in her art. And this is amazing, 0:43:28.920 --> 0:43:32.439 at least for me, because it's a very weird thing 0:43:33.000 --> 0:43:37.080 when the hegemony at the time was these male artists 0:43:37.120 --> 0:43:41.080 who painted these murals that represented the official version of 0:43:41.160 --> 0:43:46.120 Mexico's history, and they should be doing things that serve 0:43:46.200 --> 0:43:49.919 our country, not which was Vasconcelos's this course, the guy 0:43:50.000 --> 0:43:56.520 that proposed muralism as our national art, and muralism is 0:43:56.640 --> 0:44:00.000 it's like derivera in an art movement, I would say, 0:44:00.200 --> 0:44:03.560 like big in the terms of a big figure also 0:44:03.640 --> 0:44:06.440 towering over you all the time, also telling you a 0:44:06.520 --> 0:44:10.279 version of how you should be, also showcasing everything that 0:44:10.400 --> 0:44:15.920 is wrong with the system. And he even included freedom 0:44:15.920 --> 0:44:19.400 in one of the paintings. Now it's always her painting 0:44:19.440 --> 0:44:22.680 in a private space in a studio on canvas, and 0:44:22.760 --> 0:44:26.960 him painting in a public space with the government and everything. 0:44:27.480 --> 0:44:31.960 Creating a national basically nationalism, not creating our idea of 0:44:32.000 --> 0:44:35.200 what it is to be Mexican. So It's very interesting 0:44:35.239 --> 0:44:37.839 for me to see that now the idea of what 0:44:37.880 --> 0:44:39.600 it is to be Mexican has more to do with 0:44:39.640 --> 0:44:45.360 Freida than with Diego. But it isn't surprising because Flida 0:44:45.600 --> 0:44:50.120 showcases a lot of experiences that unfortunately Mexican women have, 0:44:51.000 --> 0:44:53.839 and Carlos Moncivice even said that she was kind of 0:44:53.880 --> 0:44:58.480 a new version of the Virgin of Galla lupetuous. So 0:44:58.520 --> 0:45:03.000 she represents Mexican going both the good than bad things, 0:45:03.320 --> 0:45:06.760 better than the Rivera, who was paid to represent Mexico. 0:45:06.960 --> 0:45:10.360 Right, yeah, right, right, so he was always beholden to 0:45:11.040 --> 0:45:14.799 somebody else. I'm curious what you both think about this, 0:45:15.120 --> 0:45:19.399 because going back and sort of reviewing, how I think 0:45:19.520 --> 0:45:23.560 this movie is more political than I was expecting it 0:45:23.600 --> 0:45:27.080 to be. Communism was more explicitly addressed than I would 0:45:27.080 --> 0:45:29.239 have expected in a mainstream. 0:45:29.440 --> 0:45:35.960 Movie, especially because Hollywood is so afraid of communism historically. 0:45:36.120 --> 0:45:39.040 Right, I mean whatever, It's very like one oh any 0:45:39.239 --> 0:45:43.839 kind of stuff. But I felt like the movie kind 0:45:43.880 --> 0:45:48.279 of implies that Freda comes by her political beliefs via 0:45:48.400 --> 0:45:52.240 Diego Rivera, and that rubbed me the wrong way because 0:45:52.280 --> 0:45:54.040 she joined the Communist Party. 0:45:53.880 --> 0:45:56.840 When she was a teenager, like she was really. 0:45:56.600 --> 0:46:02.320 Politically active far before she was like romantically attached to Rivera. 0:46:02.400 --> 0:46:05.400 And I felt like the movie kind of suggested that 0:46:05.480 --> 0:46:09.480 when she started seeing him after she had gone through 0:46:09.480 --> 0:46:13.000 this first recovery, that that was how she arrived at 0:46:13.200 --> 0:46:15.720 her political beliefs, and I just it's not true. 0:46:15.840 --> 0:46:18.400 I didn't feel that quite so much, especially because we 0:46:18.440 --> 0:46:21.360 see that scene with her on the bus with Diego 0:46:21.440 --> 0:46:25.440 Luna's character, that's true, where they're talking about He's like, 0:46:25.480 --> 0:46:27.840 you always read things in the wrong order. You have 0:46:27.920 --> 0:46:30.720 to read this one guy before you read Mark. 0:46:31.040 --> 0:46:34.160 You have to read Hale before Mark. Yeah. 0:46:34.200 --> 0:46:37.480 Yeah, yeah, I guess I just met like her explicit 0:46:38.040 --> 0:46:39.240 connection to the party. 0:46:39.480 --> 0:46:43.440 Yeah yeah. And also, there were twenty five hundred students 0:46:43.480 --> 0:46:46.040 in the SCA, which was at the time the only 0:46:46.120 --> 0:46:49.759 high school in Mexico, and she was like one of 0:46:49.840 --> 0:46:53.120 thirty five women out of those twenty five hundred students, 0:46:53.640 --> 0:46:56.600 and she joined the Kachucas, which was a group that 0:46:56.800 --> 0:47:02.080 was highly political and Candro, her boyfriend, was one of 0:47:02.080 --> 0:47:06.479 the leaders for student autonomy and student movements, which will 0:47:06.480 --> 0:47:10.279 eventually have a very dark history in Mexico. So it's 0:47:10.520 --> 0:47:13.520 very interesting because she was always involved that she always 0:47:13.600 --> 0:47:17.040 was going to end up being a communist. No, right, 0:47:17.400 --> 0:47:20.560 So it isn't related to Viego Rivera, I think, and 0:47:20.600 --> 0:47:23.759 we shouldn't attribute it to him because also, like I said, 0:47:23.760 --> 0:47:26.319 he's not a coherent communist at all. 0:47:26.520 --> 0:47:29.120 He's really bad at being a communist. 0:47:29.520 --> 0:47:33.319 I do think the movie after that scene where she 0:47:33.520 --> 0:47:38.640 is discussing like Marxism with Alex, it's almost always us 0:47:38.680 --> 0:47:44.440 seeing Diego Rivera talk about his communist ideology, and Frida 0:47:44.840 --> 0:47:48.440 we don't see discussed it that much, except for that 0:47:48.560 --> 0:47:52.080 one scene where she's they've arrived in New York. She 0:47:52.200 --> 0:47:55.280 keeps calling it Gringo Landia, which is very funny. Yeah, 0:47:55.280 --> 0:48:00.360 and she's talking about like income disparity and poverty. Aside 0:48:00.440 --> 0:48:05.359 from that, her political ideology isn't super clear, and if 0:48:05.400 --> 0:48:07.520 it comes up in the movie, it's usually in the 0:48:07.560 --> 0:48:11.360 context of what Digo Rivera is doing or what he's 0:48:11.400 --> 0:48:12.840 painting or what he's saying. 0:48:13.400 --> 0:48:13.680 Yeah. 0:48:13.800 --> 0:48:17.000 Yeah. And also for that when she was buried, well 0:48:17.040 --> 0:48:18.920 not she was, she wasn't buried when it was she 0:48:19.000 --> 0:48:21.759 was cremated and the ashes are in the Akasa sut 0:48:21.960 --> 0:48:25.000 but when she was in her service, for when she died, 0:48:25.680 --> 0:48:28.920 they carried the communist flag to a Yasatats, which is 0:48:29.000 --> 0:48:33.200 like the palace of fine arts in Mexico City, and 0:48:33.800 --> 0:48:36.920 in her service, the communist flag was carried with her. 0:48:37.040 --> 0:48:41.839 So she really really really believed and cared about communism. 0:48:42.480 --> 0:48:45.640 And that's what I also find very interesting about how 0:48:46.040 --> 0:48:50.800 she has been made into a token for feminism. I 0:48:51.400 --> 0:48:53.640 personally I am a feminist and I have been in the 0:48:53.680 --> 0:48:58.640 feminist intersectional field in Mexico for more than ten years. 0:48:58.680 --> 0:49:02.319 But I always is kind of cringed when they said, ah, yes, 0:49:02.320 --> 0:49:05.439 Frida a feminist icon, because when they do that, they 0:49:05.880 --> 0:49:10.040 expect then for Freda to be super coherent with feminism. 0:49:10.400 --> 0:49:13.239 And then they find out about her relationship with Diriba 0:49:13.280 --> 0:49:15.680 and they cancel her and they're like, oh no, But 0:49:15.800 --> 0:49:19.319 she allowed herself to be in that relationship and she 0:49:19.920 --> 0:49:23.880 helped a man like that exists, and it's like, you 0:49:23.920 --> 0:49:28.840 can expect her to be a communist. She understood feminist ideas, 0:49:28.960 --> 0:49:31.920 but she never called herself a feminist because that wasn't 0:49:31.960 --> 0:49:36.839 even chronologically coherent. And I have seen when I went 0:49:36.840 --> 0:49:39.239 to the States one time, at Barnes and Noble, I 0:49:39.239 --> 0:49:43.080 saw these set of cards that had like feminist icons 0:49:43.120 --> 0:49:46.560 and like Ruthbetter Ginsburg, Frida Calo, Hillary Clinton. 0:49:46.640 --> 0:49:49.400 And I was like, what, right, like the people you 0:49:49.440 --> 0:49:53.560 see printed on socks gentrified. 0:49:52.960 --> 0:49:56.719 Areas and you're like, oh, no, she was not. 0:49:56.840 --> 0:49:59.440 She would die if you put her next to Heary Clinton. 0:49:59.480 --> 0:50:01.680 Oh my god. Yeah, that's what the America that she 0:50:01.840 --> 0:50:05.520 was referring to in her diary, right, So it's no. 0:50:05.880 --> 0:50:09.520 And I think that's very interesting how they decided to 0:50:10.040 --> 0:50:13.040 pick and choose which part of her rebellion to take, 0:50:13.080 --> 0:50:17.600 and they chose those feminist traits and whitewash them, of course, 0:50:17.640 --> 0:50:21.799 and this white feminism that you were mentioning, but they 0:50:21.920 --> 0:50:24.400 completely left out not in the movie I'm saying, but 0:50:24.600 --> 0:50:28.160 in the in how readily is treated by the culture 0:50:28.360 --> 0:50:32.040 in Mexico and the United States and other countries mainstream 0:50:32.080 --> 0:50:35.759 feminist movement, right. And I think that's interesting. 0:50:35.920 --> 0:50:38.960 Yeah, that's like one of the I feel like many 0:50:39.200 --> 0:50:44.920 offshoots of like corporatized feminist discourse that is just like 0:50:45.080 --> 0:50:48.839 so aggravating, where it's like, oh, the idea of being 0:50:48.880 --> 0:50:53.520 a feminist means that you're a woman who did something successfully, yeah, 0:50:53.560 --> 0:50:56.759 and like not even connecting it to any like you're saying, 0:50:57.160 --> 0:51:02.040 like a coherent political ideology, like putting those three women 0:51:02.040 --> 0:51:02.640 next to each. 0:51:02.480 --> 0:51:05.560 Other, what do they politically have in common? 0:51:05.800 --> 0:51:06.720 So disparate. 0:51:07.400 --> 0:51:09.080 It's really all over the place. 0:51:09.320 --> 0:51:11.920 Yeah, but I will say, like, I do appreciate that 0:51:11.960 --> 0:51:14.080 this movie does. I don't know if I'm like grading 0:51:14.120 --> 0:51:16.759 it on like a two thousand and two sliding scale 0:51:17.080 --> 0:51:21.120 of like it was doing more than I expected it 0:51:21.160 --> 0:51:25.120 to politically, although it does feel like politically I think 0:51:25.120 --> 0:51:25.440 it did. 0:51:25.640 --> 0:51:28.120 Caitlin, I think like you're saying, make. 0:51:28.040 --> 0:51:34.040 It clear that Diego's communist ideals could be showy versus productive. 0:51:35.120 --> 0:51:37.319 I don't think he's held fully to task for that, 0:51:37.600 --> 0:51:40.960 but at least it's not presented like they were both, 0:51:41.320 --> 0:51:44.719 you know, like incredible and politically flawless. 0:51:44.800 --> 0:51:44.960 Right. 0:51:46.160 --> 0:51:50.359 The other element of Freda's life that I was, well, 0:51:50.360 --> 0:51:53.279 I feel like it's complicated by a lot of the 0:51:53.280 --> 0:51:56.080 production stories around this movie, which we'll get to because 0:51:56.120 --> 0:52:02.880 Samahayak later discusses how Yeah just bullied and harassed she 0:52:03.040 --> 0:52:07.080 was by Harvey Weinstein before and throughout the production of 0:52:07.120 --> 0:52:09.359 this movie. She spoke about that during the Me Too 0:52:09.440 --> 0:52:14.200 movement and has more sense. So this it sucks because 0:52:14.200 --> 0:52:17.319 I feel like this particular element of the story is 0:52:17.680 --> 0:52:18.880 kind of tainted. 0:52:18.520 --> 0:52:19.600 By those stories. 0:52:20.080 --> 0:52:26.360 But Freda's queerness and a willingness to not just reference 0:52:26.400 --> 0:52:28.359 it in passing, which I was kind of wondering at 0:52:28.360 --> 0:52:31.759 the beginning, where there is one like affair she's had 0:52:31.800 --> 0:52:33.880 with a woman who I guess has also hooked up 0:52:33.920 --> 0:52:38.760 with Diego, and it's discussed and there's like a little 0:52:39.160 --> 0:52:41.240 handsiness under the table, and I was like, I wonder 0:52:41.239 --> 0:52:43.640 if that's all the movie is gonna do in terms 0:52:43.680 --> 0:52:49.200 of like referencing that she was famously bisexual or I mean, 0:52:49.239 --> 0:52:52.880 it sounds like her sexual identity was like very complicated, 0:52:52.880 --> 0:52:54.520 and you know, I doubt she would want to be 0:52:54.600 --> 0:52:57.120 put in one particular category. 0:52:57.560 --> 0:53:01.040 That could possibly be true for her gender as well, 0:53:01.120 --> 0:53:05.640 especially because I mean, sure I'm speculating here, but you know, 0:53:05.680 --> 0:53:10.080 the way she would dress sometimes in men's clothes, possible 0:53:10.280 --> 0:53:15.080 that she was gender queer before that was ever an expression, 0:53:15.520 --> 0:53:18.560 or perhaps she'd just like to wear men's clothes sometimes 0:53:18.600 --> 0:53:21.160 hard to say, but she definitely didn't shy away from 0:53:21.520 --> 0:53:27.880 engaging with androgyny totally with her sexuality her queerness. 0:53:27.560 --> 0:53:29.560 Which is like why it's kind of like, I mean, 0:53:29.640 --> 0:53:32.319 going back to like the mainstream discourse around her, It's 0:53:32.400 --> 0:53:34.400 kind of like, as I was reading through, there's been 0:53:34.480 --> 0:53:36.960 so much written about her, obviously, but sort of like 0:53:37.200 --> 0:53:41.680 very modern attempts to like retroactively put her in a 0:53:41.719 --> 0:53:45.200 box and claim her where It's like, first of all, 0:53:45.280 --> 0:53:47.840 you'll never know, and second of all, like that just 0:53:47.840 --> 0:53:50.759 seems antithetical to what like how she lived her life 0:53:50.800 --> 0:53:51.280 in general. 0:53:52.120 --> 0:53:52.719 Anyways, all I. 0:53:52.680 --> 0:53:56.840 Had to say, I appreciated that they reference that this 0:53:56.960 --> 0:54:02.239 fluidity with her sexuality existed throughout her life, and we 0:54:02.280 --> 0:54:07.200 see a sex scene with Josephine Baker, and a complicated 0:54:07.239 --> 0:54:10.560 part of that is that Harvey Weinstein, I guess, insisted 0:54:10.600 --> 0:54:14.440 on that because he wanted Samahayak to appear full frontal 0:54:14.520 --> 0:54:18.279 nude in the movie because he was angry throughout the 0:54:18.320 --> 0:54:24.040 production that she looked quote unquote too ugly. So that 0:54:24.200 --> 0:54:26.400 was like because at first I was like, oh, wow, 0:54:26.640 --> 0:54:30.640 it's so rare to see queer sex scenes in a 0:54:30.680 --> 0:54:33.120 mainstream movie at all, and then you find out the 0:54:33.160 --> 0:54:36.680 reason it's there, and so there's that it's. 0:54:36.560 --> 0:54:39.000 Very sad, Yeah, to find out afterwards. 0:54:39.160 --> 0:54:43.359 Yeah, yeah, I'll share some of the piece that she 0:54:43.960 --> 0:54:46.720 wrote in the New York Times. 0:54:46.800 --> 0:54:48.320 Oh Yes, her op. 0:54:48.200 --> 0:54:54.520 Ed yes entitled Harvey Weinstein is My Monster Too, because 0:54:54.560 --> 0:54:58.040 this also informs another thing about the movie that I 0:54:58.080 --> 0:55:03.520 want to talk about, which is representation of disability. So 0:55:03.960 --> 0:55:08.600 first I'll start by sharing a quote from this piece 0:55:08.880 --> 0:55:12.440 where she talks about her passion for this project and 0:55:12.480 --> 0:55:15.520 her love of Free to Callo. She says, quote, one 0:55:15.560 --> 0:55:18.680 of the forces that gave me the determination to pursue 0:55:18.680 --> 0:55:22.080 my career was the story of Free to Callo, who, 0:55:22.320 --> 0:55:25.720 in the golden age of the Mexican muralists would do small, 0:55:25.760 --> 0:55:29.600 intimate paintings that everybody looked down on. She had the 0:55:29.640 --> 0:55:34.320 courage to express herself while disregarding skepticism. My greatest ambition 0:55:34.480 --> 0:55:36.840 was to tell her story. It became my mission to 0:55:36.920 --> 0:55:40.560 portray the life of this extraordinary artist and to show 0:55:40.600 --> 0:55:45.360 my native Mexico in a way that combated stereotypes unquote. 0:55:45.520 --> 0:55:49.439 So again to showing her appreciation for the subject matter, 0:55:49.760 --> 0:55:52.239 her passion for the project. It was like one of 0:55:52.280 --> 0:55:54.800 the main things she wanted to do in her career 0:55:55.280 --> 0:55:59.160 as an actor, and so with this project she was 0:55:59.160 --> 0:56:03.400 passionate about. She took the concept to Harvey Weinstein, who 0:56:03.719 --> 0:56:06.680 at the time, she heard good things about as a 0:56:06.680 --> 0:56:10.319 film producer. His name came with a level of prestige. 0:56:11.040 --> 0:56:14.000 You know, he was known to have made excellent films. 0:56:14.200 --> 0:56:17.640 So she went to him, approached him with the project, 0:56:17.880 --> 0:56:23.400 and he then started sexually harassing her incessantly. She kept 0:56:23.440 --> 0:56:26.160 telling him no, I won't do this, No I won't 0:56:26.200 --> 0:56:28.840 do that. No, no, no, and him being told no 0:56:29.120 --> 0:56:34.040 enraged him and they entered a legal battle over the movie, 0:56:34.680 --> 0:56:38.439 where he named all these stipulations that the only way 0:56:38.440 --> 0:56:42.120 that he would proceed with, you know, producing and financing 0:56:42.320 --> 0:56:45.640 the movie is if she met these kind of unrealistic 0:56:45.680 --> 0:56:50.000 criteria on a really short deadline. But she managed to deliver, 0:56:50.719 --> 0:56:53.920 so the movie went forward into production. And then this 0:56:53.960 --> 0:56:58.440 is where I'll start quoting from the piece, she says. Quote. 0:56:58.560 --> 0:57:01.319 Halfway through shooting, Harvey turned up on the set and 0:57:01.360 --> 0:57:05.040 complained about Frieda's unibrow. He insisted that I eliminate the 0:57:05.080 --> 0:57:09.239 limp and berated my performance. He then asked everyone in 0:57:09.239 --> 0:57:11.719 the room to step out except for me. He told 0:57:11.719 --> 0:57:13.640 me that the only thing I had going for me 0:57:14.160 --> 0:57:16.560 was my sex appeal and that there was none of 0:57:16.600 --> 0:57:19.040 that in this movie. He told me he was going 0:57:19.080 --> 0:57:21.400 to shut down the film because no one would want 0:57:21.440 --> 0:57:25.040 to see me in that role. It was soul crushing 0:57:25.240 --> 0:57:28.280 because I confessed lost in the fog of a sort 0:57:28.320 --> 0:57:31.440 of Stockholm syndrome. I wanted him to see me as 0:57:31.440 --> 0:57:35.040 an artist, not only as a capable actress, but also 0:57:35.120 --> 0:57:39.080 as somebody who could identify a compelling story and had 0:57:39.680 --> 0:57:43.000 the vision to tell in an original way, which I 0:57:43.000 --> 0:57:46.600 feel like speaks to something that so many women. And 0:57:46.640 --> 0:57:49.160 this is me speaking now, I've stopped quoting for a 0:57:49.160 --> 0:57:51.360 moment to be clear, but you know it speaks to 0:57:51.480 --> 0:57:55.240 something that so many women and people of marginalized genders 0:57:55.600 --> 0:58:00.360 deal with as far as imposter syndrome, and goes on 0:58:00.400 --> 0:58:03.320 to say quote I was hoping he would acknowledge me 0:58:03.360 --> 0:58:05.760 as a producer who, on top of delivering his list 0:58:05.800 --> 0:58:08.640 of demands, shepherded the script and obtain the permits to 0:58:08.760 --> 0:58:12.200 use the paintings. I had negotiated with the Mexican government 0:58:12.360 --> 0:58:15.040 and with whomever I had to to get locations that 0:58:15.080 --> 0:58:17.840 had never been given to anyone in the past, including 0:58:17.840 --> 0:58:21.479 Freda Collos houses and the mural of Collo's husband Diogoro Vera, 0:58:21.880 --> 0:58:25.320 among others. So again, she as a producer did like 0:58:25.360 --> 0:58:29.880 all these incredible feats to get this movie made, she says, 0:58:29.920 --> 0:58:32.600 but all of this seemed to have no value. The 0:58:32.640 --> 0:58:35.680 only thing he noticed was that I was not sexy 0:58:35.720 --> 0:58:38.000 in the movie. He made me doubt if I was 0:58:38.040 --> 0:58:40.840 any good as an actress, but he never succeeded in 0:58:40.880 --> 0:58:43.080 making me think that the film was not worth making. 0:58:43.560 --> 0:58:46.400 He offered me one option to continue. He would let 0:58:46.440 --> 0:58:48.120 me finish the film if I agreed to do a 0:58:48.160 --> 0:58:52.360 sex scene with another woman, and he demanded full frontal nudity. 0:58:53.160 --> 0:58:57.200 She goes on to describe the pressure he put on 0:58:57.320 --> 0:59:00.840 her and director Julie Taymoor to include this full frontal 0:59:00.920 --> 0:59:03.800 nudity sex scene. They felt they had to concede. 0:59:04.080 --> 0:59:07.080 He also, like I think, threatened to fire Julie Taymor 0:59:07.200 --> 0:59:11.960 if Samahayak didn't comply with including this scene. Like it 0:59:12.080 --> 0:59:15.120 just was like threats to basically sabotage this entire production. 0:59:15.240 --> 0:59:17.480 She had spent the better part of ten years trying 0:59:17.520 --> 0:59:19.720 to make right happen. And I mean, I feel like 0:59:19.720 --> 0:59:23.760 you can attribute so much of how authentic this feels 0:59:23.800 --> 0:59:29.080 as opposed to other biopics to the willpower of Samahayak, 0:59:29.120 --> 0:59:31.600 and also the fact that she, like you're saying, Caitlin 0:59:32.080 --> 0:59:34.480 is a really talented producer. 0:59:34.080 --> 0:59:36.720 Which I feel like is such. 0:59:36.560 --> 0:59:42.240 A double standard in Hollywood in general, where when a male. 0:59:42.080 --> 0:59:44.160 Actor produces his own work, it's. 0:59:44.080 --> 0:59:49.000 Really drawn attention to, but with women it's almost always minimized. 0:59:50.120 --> 0:59:54.280 And the things she got PERMASI for are truly impossible 0:59:54.320 --> 0:59:58.680 in Mexico because Frieda and Diego are considered patrimonial artists 0:59:59.040 --> 1:00:02.840 and getting permitt for anything related to them is impossible. 1:00:03.440 --> 1:00:07.520 So what she did is truly a big fit. Yeah. 1:00:07.560 --> 1:00:10.600 Before I read this piece, I assumed that they had 1:00:10.680 --> 1:00:14.320 just built doubles of those sets, not realizing that they 1:00:14.360 --> 1:00:19.120 actually like shot on location and yeah, like la asuol 1:00:19.160 --> 1:00:22.400 and stuff. Yeah, and then she describes the day that 1:00:22.440 --> 1:00:25.600 they shot that sex scene, she had a nervous breakdown. 1:00:25.720 --> 1:00:29.280 She was throwing up, she was shaking uncontrollably because she 1:00:29.400 --> 1:00:34.000 knew she was conceding to the will of this predator 1:00:34.120 --> 1:00:36.080 and that's what made her feel so sick. 1:00:36.440 --> 1:00:36.760 Yeah. 1:00:36.800 --> 1:00:39.800 He then tried to sabotage the release of the movie 1:00:39.840 --> 1:00:43.280 after it was completed. He like didn't want it to 1:00:43.320 --> 1:00:45.360 be in theaters really, and. 1:00:45.360 --> 1:00:49.200 He sabotaged her Oscar campaign almost wholesale yep. 1:00:49.480 --> 1:00:52.560 So, and then the piece concludes with Somemahaik talking about 1:00:52.720 --> 1:00:57.560 women being devalued and undervalued as artists and filmmakers and she, 1:00:57.880 --> 1:01:02.880 you know, longs for gender equity in Hollywood. So a 1:01:02.960 --> 1:01:05.720 piece worth reading if any listeners want to learn more, 1:01:05.760 --> 1:01:11.240 but truly sickening to be reminded of all the horrors 1:01:11.280 --> 1:01:13.479 that Harvey Weinstein puts so many people through. 1:01:13.920 --> 1:01:18.040 I think it's very sad and kind of meta that 1:01:18.360 --> 1:01:21.320 they're making a film about free that but also about 1:01:21.320 --> 1:01:26.400 her abuser and this horrible person that controlled the art 1:01:26.760 --> 1:01:30.400 world in Mexico. And I find a lot of parallel 1:01:30.520 --> 1:01:34.720 lines between Harvey Weinstein's figure and the Rivera's figure in 1:01:35.320 --> 1:01:37.360 the making of the movie and in the story that 1:01:37.400 --> 1:01:40.760 they're telling. So it's so sad that it's so contradictory, 1:01:40.880 --> 1:01:45.720 know that they're telling this story and it happens on set, yeah. 1:01:45.520 --> 1:01:48.600 Right, all while scaling back the abusive nature of the 1:01:49.160 --> 1:01:52.920 other person. Like I just wanted to add as a 1:01:53.040 --> 1:01:57.160 I guess like punctuation on that that. Alfred Melina also 1:01:57.240 --> 1:02:02.080 did interviews around this time, and also before hating Harvey Weinstein, before. 1:02:01.840 --> 1:02:02.400 It was cool. 1:02:02.840 --> 1:02:06.040 He's a real one he is, Yeah, but they he 1:02:06.160 --> 1:02:08.720 sort of expanded on how Weinstein, when he was not 1:02:08.720 --> 1:02:13.800 successful in getting Samahayak to creatively compromise, started talking to 1:02:13.840 --> 1:02:15.960 other actors to see if he could turn them against her, 1:02:16.600 --> 1:02:20.520 including going over like trying to basically get Alfred Malina 1:02:20.600 --> 1:02:22.760 on his side and being like, she's one of the 1:02:22.760 --> 1:02:24.520 best actors in the world, and what do I see 1:02:24.560 --> 1:02:29.800 on screen? Nothing but Freeda. Molina expressed disbelief. Well, that's 1:02:29.800 --> 1:02:34.960 the whole fucking point, isn't it. He's me like, which 1:02:35.160 --> 1:02:38.920 like yeah, And then sort of subsequently for the amount 1:02:38.960 --> 1:02:42.480 of time Weinstein had power after that was Black Belt 1:02:42.720 --> 1:02:44.040 by Miramax. 1:02:44.760 --> 1:02:46.480 Yeah, but I. 1:02:46.400 --> 1:02:49.040 Mean it's just it's so I mean, it's like a 1:02:49.080 --> 1:02:53.000 story we're very familiar with now, but just hearing how 1:02:53.640 --> 1:02:55.960 how hard Salmahayak had to work to even get this 1:02:56.200 --> 1:02:59.960 in production because looking at the Freedom movies that almost 1:03:00.120 --> 1:03:04.880 happened and thankfully didn't one with Jailo with Jelo, but 1:03:05.080 --> 1:03:09.840 also the biography by Hayden Herrera was first optioned in 1:03:09.920 --> 1:03:12.760 nineteen eighty eight, and they wanted to have either Meryl 1:03:12.800 --> 1:03:17.680 Streep or Jessica Lang played Frieda or you Madonna almost 1:03:17.680 --> 1:03:21.880 played Frieda with Robert de Niro starring as Diego Rivera, 1:03:22.560 --> 1:03:24.640 and you're like, no offense for Robert Nio, but like, 1:03:24.960 --> 1:03:26.880 there's a whole there's so many reasons for him not 1:03:26.920 --> 1:03:28.320 to play Diego Rivera. 1:03:28.840 --> 1:03:29.120 Yeah. 1:03:29.200 --> 1:03:32.440 So the fact that this movie that Samahiak's production is 1:03:32.480 --> 1:03:36.200 the one that prevailed is amazing. 1:03:36.600 --> 1:03:39.800 Yeah, with a Mexican woman as a lead from Quatsa 1:03:39.840 --> 1:03:43.840 qual Cosbera Cruz who came up through a telenovela SI 1:03:43.920 --> 1:03:46.960 stem in Mexico and ended up in Hollywood. No, So 1:03:47.160 --> 1:03:50.200 that's also something that I found very valuable about. I 1:03:50.240 --> 1:03:53.840 love Salama Kayak, of course, and I think that that's 1:03:53.840 --> 1:03:57.960 why she's so aware of the fact that what Harvey 1:03:57.960 --> 1:04:00.880 Weinstein did to her, because it's very colmon here in 1:04:00.920 --> 1:04:04.000 Mexico in the telenovela system too. So I don't think 1:04:04.120 --> 1:04:07.400 unfortunately it was the first time she encountered these predators 1:04:07.440 --> 1:04:09.360 in her job. Yeah. 1:04:09.640 --> 1:04:11.840 I read an interview she did in twenty twenty one 1:04:12.000 --> 1:04:14.600 that sort of followed up on the op ed you 1:04:14.920 --> 1:04:18.600 read us Passages from Caitlin, where Yeah, she basically confirms 1:04:18.680 --> 1:04:22.400 that she's like, I don't mean to minimize my experiences 1:04:22.440 --> 1:04:25.280 with Weinstein. They were very traumatic, but that had already 1:04:25.320 --> 1:04:29.680 happened to me so frequently that I almost like tried 1:04:29.680 --> 1:04:31.600 to take it in stride at the time, because it 1:04:31.640 --> 1:04:33.760 was just how I was conditioned to believe things were 1:04:33.800 --> 1:04:37.240 going to work, no matter where I was working or 1:04:37.280 --> 1:04:41.920 at what level, which is miserable. 1:04:42.800 --> 1:04:47.480 Yes, indeed, I wanted to touch on the other thing that 1:04:47.720 --> 1:04:52.480 the piece alludes to, as far as like compromises that 1:04:52.520 --> 1:04:56.880 she felt she had to make in order to appease 1:04:57.080 --> 1:05:00.280 this monster of a person, as far as is the 1:05:00.320 --> 1:05:05.640 representation of disability where Frida Collo dealt with chronic pain. 1:05:05.800 --> 1:05:10.480 She had many surgeries throughout her life, she had a miscarriage, 1:05:11.040 --> 1:05:15.680 and the movie You Know examines how this inspires some 1:05:15.840 --> 1:05:18.520 of her artwork. But it seems like the movie attributes 1:05:18.600 --> 1:05:21.520 all of this to the bus accident that we see 1:05:21.560 --> 1:05:23.360 happening on screen, which he sent through. 1:05:23.680 --> 1:05:24.560 Ye right. 1:05:24.880 --> 1:05:28.480 The movie does not mention that she had polio as 1:05:29.040 --> 1:05:31.200 a child, I believe when she was six years old, 1:05:31.920 --> 1:05:35.680 which caused leg pain and for her to have a 1:05:35.720 --> 1:05:40.080 limp when she walked even before the bus accident. And 1:05:40.360 --> 1:05:44.040 I saw criticism that the movie tends to downplay and 1:05:44.080 --> 1:05:50.200 erase Freda's physical disability. This could be because Freda is 1:05:50.240 --> 1:05:54.720 played by an able bodied actor, but I read a 1:05:54.720 --> 1:05:59.080 piece from a writer who is disabled named Marta Russell, 1:05:59.200 --> 1:06:03.560 who took issue with the disability rature, particularly the scene 1:06:03.560 --> 1:06:07.680 where Frida is doing that seductive dance with Ashley Judd's character. 1:06:08.400 --> 1:06:12.480 The movie depicts her in you know, high heels dancing. 1:06:12.920 --> 1:06:16.760 There's no visible limp, but the real life Frieda wore 1:06:17.360 --> 1:06:20.920 several layers of socks on her right shoe that was 1:06:20.960 --> 1:06:24.760 also like build up to compensate for her smaller limb. 1:06:24.840 --> 1:06:28.040 Her right leg was was it her right le? One 1:06:28.040 --> 1:06:33.480 of her legs was considerably smaller and weaker because of 1:06:33.560 --> 1:06:36.480 the polio, I believe, or maybe it was a combination 1:06:36.560 --> 1:06:38.640 of the polio and the bus accident. 1:06:38.840 --> 1:06:42.200 There was another thing, m There are historians who believe 1:06:42.280 --> 1:06:46.600 that the polio diagnosis was kind of invented by her 1:06:46.600 --> 1:06:50.800 family because it was a how do you see in 1:06:50.840 --> 1:06:57.440 English congenital disease. Congenital congenital disease called spina bifida spleet 1:06:57.480 --> 1:07:01.240 spine that her and her siblings all had, and it's 1:07:01.280 --> 1:07:03.640 proven she had a little brother that was born and 1:07:03.720 --> 1:07:06.840 died as a little baby named Guillermo, and they all 1:07:06.920 --> 1:07:11.520 had disability. And what is interesting is that like historians 1:07:11.520 --> 1:07:15.200 that have worked with Freda in their careers have discussed 1:07:15.200 --> 1:07:18.320 about this topic and so why would the family decide 1:07:18.320 --> 1:07:21.680 to say it's polio? And it also has to do 1:07:21.720 --> 1:07:25.280 with the fact that all the siblings had this diagnosis 1:07:25.320 --> 1:07:29.800 of spineappifida. And what is interesting about this is that 1:07:29.840 --> 1:07:32.840 they also proposed the idea that Frida didn't only have 1:07:33.040 --> 1:07:36.960 a miscarriage, she had two abortions. No, and many believed 1:07:37.000 --> 1:07:41.040 that she did because she was scared of passing down 1:07:41.120 --> 1:07:46.000 that condition to her children. So it's that's why they 1:07:46.040 --> 1:07:49.360 tend to believe that there's like weird thing there that 1:07:49.400 --> 1:07:53.360 we don't know about with the where the family said 1:07:53.440 --> 1:07:58.200 something and then Frida behaved towards it. But also Frida 1:07:58.360 --> 1:08:05.160 had a very internalized ablest attitude against herself. They say 1:08:05.240 --> 1:08:08.080 that the way she dressed, even the one a skirts 1:08:08.120 --> 1:08:10.760 that she wore and the outfits that she were, especially 1:08:10.840 --> 1:08:13.320 later running her life when she encountered the biggest tissues 1:08:13.400 --> 1:08:18.920 and complications, they hit her disability with her legs. So 1:08:19.160 --> 1:08:22.680 it's very interesting to notice how everything that we know 1:08:22.720 --> 1:08:27.400 about her disability is kind of contradicting each other's versions 1:08:27.439 --> 1:08:30.759 of the facts. And I found that very interesting because 1:08:30.760 --> 1:08:36.719 it tells you how it's invisibilized, not like the movie does. 1:08:37.160 --> 1:08:42.160 And it's also something that hasn't been researched as other 1:08:42.320 --> 1:08:46.639 aspects of her life. And we don't know an official 1:08:46.720 --> 1:08:50.040 version of the facts. So why do I suddenly find 1:08:50.080 --> 1:08:53.879 out that all of her siblings had this same disease 1:08:54.680 --> 1:08:55.760 and so on and so forth. 1:08:55.880 --> 1:08:59.919 No, Right, So, even though we might not know exactly 1:09:00.520 --> 1:09:04.960 what the specifics were of her source of pain and disability, 1:09:05.080 --> 1:09:08.759 we do know that she did deal with chronic pain 1:09:09.320 --> 1:09:14.200 and again walked with a limp. And the movie more 1:09:14.320 --> 1:09:18.280 or less erases that it's very inconsistent. But then you 1:09:18.320 --> 1:09:24.160 find out why, Yeah, because apparently Harvey Weinstein insisted that 1:09:24.280 --> 1:09:25.680 was the case, or to be. 1:09:25.720 --> 1:09:29.920 Sixy Yeah, and just the fact from what I was 1:09:29.920 --> 1:09:32.080 saying that I forgot to say. They say that she 1:09:32.120 --> 1:09:35.200 couldn't walk at three years old, for example. Oh, so 1:09:35.240 --> 1:09:37.920 that's why they believe it second genital disease and not 1:09:38.000 --> 1:09:40.080 so much something she contracted later. 1:09:40.400 --> 1:09:45.640 I see, Yeah, it's so I'm willing to find this 1:09:45.680 --> 1:09:48.240 wholesale on Harvey Weinstein. 1:09:48.479 --> 1:09:50.799 Yeah, but maybe that's just the easiest answer. 1:09:51.040 --> 1:09:53.840 I do think that this also like connecting with what 1:09:53.880 --> 1:09:58.720 you're both saying, there is such a resistance to depicting 1:09:59.439 --> 1:10:01.640 and especially responsibly depicting disability. 1:10:01.680 --> 1:10:02.640 And then the further. 1:10:02.400 --> 1:10:04.719 Back you go, especially if you're doing a historical piece, 1:10:05.120 --> 1:10:08.120 the harder it is to sort of parse out how 1:10:08.160 --> 1:10:12.120 disability was spoken about or not spoken about then versus now. 1:10:12.200 --> 1:10:15.960 So it's like a very I mean, as disability advocates know, 1:10:16.040 --> 1:10:19.960 it's a very very difficult needle to thread, and it 1:10:20.160 --> 1:10:23.160 just seems like the only thing that is certain is that, 1:10:23.400 --> 1:10:27.120 because of how this production was being controlled, this was 1:10:27.160 --> 1:10:31.439 not a production that was going to handle the issue 1:10:31.439 --> 1:10:32.720 of disability responsibly. 1:10:33.160 --> 1:10:38.320 Yeah, it's very sad. It is because also Frida didn't. 1:10:38.880 --> 1:10:42.120 I mean, it's a whole conversation about why would disability 1:10:42.400 --> 1:10:45.759 make someone vulnerable on this ableist world, how it's built 1:10:45.960 --> 1:10:50.400 in enablest manner and everything. But Frida also didn't want 1:10:50.560 --> 1:10:54.160 to look vulnerable against the world. No, and that's why 1:10:54.280 --> 1:10:58.799 she herself didn't want to accepting her paintings, of course, 1:10:59.000 --> 1:11:02.519 but in her because when you see pictures of her 1:11:02.800 --> 1:11:07.680 in everyday life. She was performing all the time, her outfits, 1:11:07.720 --> 1:11:11.720 her whole esthetic, how she dressed. It was like performance art. 1:11:12.520 --> 1:11:14.600 It reminded me of I feel like again, just like 1:11:14.680 --> 1:11:18.040 how at least how my art education was, because I 1:11:18.120 --> 1:11:20.160 was not an art major or anything like that. But 1:11:20.200 --> 1:11:23.200 I feel like it's often presented in contemporary classes, like 1:11:23.280 --> 1:11:25.880 Cindy Sherman was the first artist to ever do that, 1:11:25.960 --> 1:11:28.599 And you're like, but that's so clearly what Frida is doing. Yeah, 1:11:28.760 --> 1:11:31.919 she's presenting herself in all these different ways and in characters, 1:11:31.920 --> 1:11:33.879 and like, it's just it's amazing. 1:11:34.320 --> 1:11:37.479 And Cindy Sherman does it in her pictures, but Villa 1:11:37.520 --> 1:11:41.120 Cala didn't her everyday life. No, And it's very very 1:11:41.160 --> 1:11:45.560 interesting because she had a whole persona that she embodied 1:11:45.600 --> 1:11:48.000 every time that she was out in public, or she 1:11:48.080 --> 1:11:50.800 was having a party in her house, or and it 1:11:50.880 --> 1:11:54.919 had to do with a very particular set of tools 1:11:54.960 --> 1:11:58.040 that she had developed because of her queerness, because of 1:11:58.040 --> 1:12:01.240 her disability, because of the chata just she had encountered 1:12:01.240 --> 1:12:04.960 throughout her life. And I think it's nowadays it's one 1:12:04.960 --> 1:12:08.760 of the most appropriated parts of Frida Carlo that the 1:12:08.880 --> 1:12:14.040 braids and the rebon in her hair and the Mexican attire, 1:12:14.520 --> 1:12:17.880 like stereotypically Mexican and all of that, and it's part 1:12:17.960 --> 1:12:24.000 of what she did to both conceal her insecurities and 1:12:24.080 --> 1:12:28.000 also showcase herself as whatever she wanted to do, and 1:12:28.040 --> 1:12:29.719 that was shown in her attire. 1:12:29.800 --> 1:12:34.639 I think, yeah, this movie does adequately show that Freda 1:12:34.680 --> 1:12:38.519 color is really cool, but never enough. It feels like 1:12:38.960 --> 1:12:42.280 I wanted to acknowledge something that I don't know how 1:12:42.320 --> 1:12:44.599 to address. I was going back in because I've seen 1:12:44.640 --> 1:12:48.759 it referenced over the years of casting for this movie. 1:12:49.160 --> 1:12:53.080 Because Alfred Molina is a white guy, he is of 1:12:53.240 --> 1:12:56.960 Spanish and Italian descent, and so there has been a 1:12:56.960 --> 1:13:01.240 fair amount of criticism around his casting. The complicating factor 1:13:01.360 --> 1:13:04.000 there is that Selma Jyak directly asked him to play 1:13:04.000 --> 1:13:07.160 the part, and like went to his play and was like, 1:13:07.360 --> 1:13:10.040 you're the guy, and I guess, like, you don't say 1:13:10.040 --> 1:13:14.479 no to Selma Jyak, And I don't know, because I 1:13:14.560 --> 1:13:17.960 was looking into Dico Rivera's background and he is also 1:13:18.400 --> 1:13:20.799 very multicultural but also very Mexican. 1:13:20.920 --> 1:13:23.440 So it's just yeah, I mean, it doesn't. 1:13:23.160 --> 1:13:25.479 Seem like if this movie was being made today that 1:13:25.520 --> 1:13:30.120 Alfred Molina would be the right choice for this part. 1:13:30.240 --> 1:13:32.559 But yeah, I just saw a lot of conversation around 1:13:32.600 --> 1:13:35.719 it then and now I saw a red carpet interview 1:13:35.720 --> 1:13:39.760 with him at the premiere of this movie, and him 1:13:39.920 --> 1:13:44.519 addressing the criticism and being like, there's no doubt, like 1:13:44.560 --> 1:13:47.680 I am of Spanish Italian descent, and there are a 1:13:47.760 --> 1:13:50.720 lot of people in Mexico who were upset that I 1:13:50.760 --> 1:13:54.280 had been cast, and I understand why, which then leads 1:13:54.280 --> 1:13:55.200 to the question. 1:13:55.280 --> 1:13:56.519 Well, then why did you do it? 1:13:58.000 --> 1:14:00.280 But I just wanted to acknowledge that as well, because 1:14:00.280 --> 1:14:03.200 it feels like something that's frequently cited in this movie, 1:14:03.240 --> 1:14:08.040 and also just throughout Alfred Molina's career, he's been cast. 1:14:08.640 --> 1:14:10.679 I mean, I think of his role in Indiana Jones 1:14:10.680 --> 1:14:13.080 as kind of another example of this. 1:14:14.160 --> 1:14:18.559 Yeah, He's definitely played characters of ethnic backgrounds that are 1:14:18.560 --> 1:14:20.320 certainly not his own. 1:14:21.240 --> 1:14:23.920 Yeah, I mean, and I'm the last person to want 1:14:23.960 --> 1:14:28.000 to bring down the hammer on our boy, but I 1:14:28.000 --> 1:14:30.519 still acknowledge that. I want to seem like I was 1:14:30.600 --> 1:14:33.120 not willing to engage with that discussion just because it 1:14:33.160 --> 1:14:34.000 was Alfred Polina. 1:14:34.920 --> 1:14:38.800 I relate that also to some recent criticism I have 1:14:38.880 --> 1:14:43.760 seen against Rida Calo herself, no, that she really portrayed 1:14:43.800 --> 1:14:51.120 herself as these indigenous Mexican women, especially towards her adult years. 1:14:51.880 --> 1:14:56.439 And lasos Fridas, of course has the European Frieda and 1:14:56.520 --> 1:15:01.840 the Mexican Frieda depicted there. But her dad was German, No, 1:15:02.040 --> 1:15:05.040 and her mom was well, her grandfather from her mom's 1:15:05.040 --> 1:15:08.320 side was an indigenous man, but her grandmother from her 1:15:08.360 --> 1:15:12.400 mom's side was a Spanish descent also, and almost all 1:15:12.479 --> 1:15:19.320 Mexicans we have this complex mixture of ethnicities and races 1:15:19.360 --> 1:15:24.679 and backgrounds. So it would be very hard to cast 1:15:24.880 --> 1:15:29.839 someone that is perfect for the egorrita because our history 1:15:29.840 --> 1:15:33.320 in Mexico comes from and I'm not saying that's something 1:15:33.400 --> 1:15:36.920 good that happened. It's the invasion of Mexican by the 1:15:36.960 --> 1:15:41.360 Spanish was basically and the creation of the Mestizo race, 1:15:41.400 --> 1:15:44.679 which is the mixture of indigenous and white Spanish people, 1:15:44.840 --> 1:15:50.439 is basically the rape of thousands of Mexican original community women. 1:15:50.960 --> 1:15:55.000 But this is something that Frila Calo has also been 1:15:55.000 --> 1:15:59.800 accused of doing, of appropriating cultures that are not her 1:16:00.240 --> 1:16:02.840 and stuff like that, and I think that's a very 1:16:02.880 --> 1:16:06.120 complex discussion. Now. The other day, I was teaching cultural 1:16:06.160 --> 1:16:09.519 appropriation with my students and they were like, but when 1:16:09.840 --> 1:16:12.439 when is it appreciation and when is it appropriation? And 1:16:12.720 --> 1:16:15.400 they were telling me examples, and I was like, it's 1:16:15.720 --> 1:16:19.080 very hard. We have to contextualize every single example to 1:16:19.200 --> 1:16:23.720 understand what happens there. Not because some may say I 1:16:23.760 --> 1:16:29.479 freely doesn't have any right to portray indigenous experiences in 1:16:29.840 --> 1:16:34.120 her art, but also her grandfather was from indigenous assent, 1:16:34.320 --> 1:16:37.400 and you know, Alfred Molina, I think has the same thing. 1:16:37.560 --> 1:16:42.400 He comes from a Spanish Italian background. He's not Mexican. 1:16:42.600 --> 1:16:45.720 Diria was. But Mexican is not a race or an ethnicity, 1:16:45.760 --> 1:16:46.680 it's a nationality. 1:16:47.640 --> 1:16:50.519 So yeah, and that was why I felt naive when 1:16:50.520 --> 1:16:52.320 I was looking into this, because I feel like i'd 1:16:52.320 --> 1:16:54.639 seen it presented like you're talking about the same way 1:16:54.680 --> 1:16:56.840 that I saw a lot of I feel like it 1:16:56.880 --> 1:16:58.519 was like ten years ago or so. There was just 1:16:58.560 --> 1:17:01.160 like this wave of criticism that's exactly what you're. 1:17:01.000 --> 1:17:02.320 Describing about free to callow. 1:17:02.439 --> 1:17:05.000 And then a piece that I we can link it 1:17:05.040 --> 1:17:06.719 in the description of this, but I read a piece 1:17:06.800 --> 1:17:11.920 by Tanya Nunez who wrote a whole essay basically saying 1:17:11.920 --> 1:17:13.559 what you just said, Angela, whereas like. 1:17:14.040 --> 1:17:15.160 Well it's not that simple. 1:17:15.439 --> 1:17:19.280 And you know, even if there were contemporary criticisms, if 1:17:19.320 --> 1:17:22.840 free to Callo was working today, she wasn't. Those weren't 1:17:22.880 --> 1:17:26.519 the conversations going on then, and during her lifetime, she 1:17:26.600 --> 1:17:29.800 was largely not trying to profit off of this. 1:17:30.080 --> 1:17:33.080 Yeah, she only sold one painting, which was the two 1:17:33.160 --> 1:17:36.599 Freedas for two hundred and fifty dollars ry. No, she 1:17:36.640 --> 1:17:39.000 only had one solo exhibition, which was the one that 1:17:39.040 --> 1:17:42.160 picked her in the movie. The other exhibitions were with 1:17:42.200 --> 1:17:46.599 other artists, so she didn't really profit. She was Diego's 1:17:46.600 --> 1:17:50.080 wife most of the time for the public, right, unfortunately. 1:17:50.200 --> 1:17:52.880 And it's like a conversation she's mostly having with herself 1:17:52.960 --> 1:17:55.600 throughout her life and like trying to understand her identity 1:17:55.840 --> 1:17:59.360 and then looking into Diego's background. Yeah, it says on 1:17:59.400 --> 1:18:06.160 scholarly journal Wikipedia it says Diego was of Spanish, Americandian, African, Italian, Jewish, Russian, 1:18:06.200 --> 1:18:07.240 and Portuguese descent. 1:18:07.600 --> 1:18:10.320 So it's just like, yeah, I don't know. 1:18:10.479 --> 1:18:13.120 Yeah, that's what happens with the American continent. 1:18:13.520 --> 1:18:16.760 No, yeah, yeah, and I think that's the I mean, 1:18:16.800 --> 1:18:21.360 this is something I have spent a lot of time 1:18:21.400 --> 1:18:25.519 and effort learning slash unlearning as far as because I 1:18:25.560 --> 1:18:31.599 think a lot of white Americans do view being Mexican 1:18:31.760 --> 1:18:36.760 as a racial identity. Yeah, and I've heard people be like, oh, no, 1:18:36.840 --> 1:18:40.000 he's not white, he's Mexican. It's like, well, that does 1:18:40.040 --> 1:18:42.799 not preclude him, Like he could still be a white Mexican. 1:18:42.880 --> 1:18:45.479 Yeah. I'm white as folk, and I'm Mexican because my 1:18:45.560 --> 1:18:48.559 daddy's from Spain and my mom's sambili is from Spain too, 1:18:48.640 --> 1:18:52.439 and I have a Mexican nationality. It doesn't mean anything, no. 1:18:53.000 --> 1:18:55.559 Right, right. So there's a lot of I think still 1:18:55.560 --> 1:19:00.720 to this day, misunderstanding about the difference between like the 1:19:00.760 --> 1:19:06.200 ethnic and national and racial background of everyone in Latin America. 1:19:06.439 --> 1:19:10.320 And there's so much erasure also of Afro Latin X people. 1:19:10.560 --> 1:19:14.200 Of course, there's so much erasure of indigenous people who 1:19:14.280 --> 1:19:17.720 were the original inhabitants of what would become known as 1:19:17.800 --> 1:19:22.200 Latin America. And it's such a fraud history with colonization 1:19:22.479 --> 1:19:26.439 and the Transatlantic slave trade. It has created a lot 1:19:26.479 --> 1:19:31.160 of confusion for a lot of people. And so it's 1:19:31.320 --> 1:19:34.320 something that I think we've gotten wrong on the podcast 1:19:34.360 --> 1:19:35.520 before and. 1:19:35.360 --> 1:19:38.160 For sure, and it has to do with what Riverta did. 1:19:38.439 --> 1:19:41.760 He created this Mexican nationalism that makes you believe that 1:19:41.840 --> 1:19:45.800 we are a race they said, the say the Bronze race, 1:19:46.000 --> 1:19:51.320 that it comes from that glorious indigenous past, from the 1:19:51.360 --> 1:19:56.960 Mechicas and all of these pre Hispanic civilizations that emulates 1:19:57.120 --> 1:19:59.519 how Europe treated the Greeks and the Romans. That's what 1:19:59.600 --> 1:20:03.320 Basco Clos and the muralist projected here in Mexico. But 1:20:03.360 --> 1:20:08.120 at the same time, governments mistreat alive indigenous people who 1:20:08.160 --> 1:20:11.000 are living in our world today, you know. So it's 1:20:11.800 --> 1:20:14.680 a it's an issue, and Dio Riverta was a very 1:20:14.680 --> 1:20:19.519 big participant in that. And this idea, the stereotype of 1:20:19.560 --> 1:20:21.920 what it is to be Mexican is also created by 1:20:21.960 --> 1:20:25.240 our own nationalism and how we portray ourselves to the world. 1:20:25.320 --> 1:20:31.240 So yeah, Tangled Web, I mean, I've spoken to Mexican 1:20:31.280 --> 1:20:35.080 American people who are racially white who have said I'm 1:20:35.080 --> 1:20:36.720 not white, I'm Mexican. 1:20:37.600 --> 1:20:40.599 No. And we even have a term in Mexico called 1:20:41.120 --> 1:20:45.679 white Secans, which are the white Mexicans that are middle 1:20:45.720 --> 1:20:49.519 high class people that behave like assholes to towards everyone, 1:20:49.600 --> 1:20:53.559 and they believe that they're superior and this systemic and 1:20:53.720 --> 1:20:58.640 super super rooted racism we have in Mexico and classism 1:20:58.680 --> 1:21:03.240 and everything, and there's the white secun label. And once 1:21:03.280 --> 1:21:06.880 I had a student that's me, future are white secut 1:21:07.240 --> 1:21:09.559 and I was like, well, yeah, I'm white and I'm Mexican. 1:21:09.600 --> 1:21:12.040 I hope I don't behave like a serty people white secun. 1:21:12.120 --> 1:21:17.799 But yeah, yeah, yeah, for people in the US especially, 1:21:17.840 --> 1:21:21.519 it's it is, we're just like severely under educated about it, 1:21:21.600 --> 1:21:24.920 Like it's embarrassing. Yeah. 1:21:25.160 --> 1:21:28.320 With regard to just like closing the loop on the 1:21:28.320 --> 1:21:31.439 Alpha Molina thing, it was tricky because it involved digging 1:21:31.520 --> 1:21:34.960 up two thousand and two media, which is either hard 1:21:34.960 --> 1:21:37.960 to find or kind of inscrutable when you read it. 1:21:37.960 --> 1:21:41.920 It just seemed like they're two separate strains of criticism 1:21:41.960 --> 1:21:46.879 going on, one being that Alpha Blina is white and 1:21:47.200 --> 1:21:52.080 the other just that he had no connection to Mexican culture, 1:21:52.640 --> 1:21:55.679 and that because Diego Rivera was such a prominent Mexican 1:21:55.760 --> 1:21:59.280 figure that they were like, well, why this, why do we. 1:21:59.320 --> 1:22:01.040 Have this British like that? 1:22:01.640 --> 1:22:04.080 Yeah, which is I think a fair criticism, And I 1:22:04.160 --> 1:22:06.760 also think he gives a great performance because it's South 1:22:06.800 --> 1:22:09.200 for Bolina is a star. 1:22:09.400 --> 1:22:13.479 He's amazing. I have something to say about this because 1:22:13.720 --> 1:22:16.200 there is a part of the film where they a 1:22:16.760 --> 1:22:19.760 trotsky and Frida paints it to Frida's there is a 1:22:19.800 --> 1:22:24.200 woman singing do you remember like yourna? Yes, yes, that 1:22:24.320 --> 1:22:27.720 woman who appears in the movie. She is created as 1:22:27.800 --> 1:22:31.080 Lapelona and Death. No, she plays death which we call 1:22:31.160 --> 1:22:35.200 lapelona sometimes. That woman is famous for singing that song. 1:22:35.200 --> 1:22:38.080 Her name is Celle la Varagas, and cevel la Vargas 1:22:38.320 --> 1:22:43.200 is from Costa Rica. But she said that famous quote 1:22:43.200 --> 1:22:49.639 that says los Mexicano that means Mexicans are born wherever 1:22:49.680 --> 1:22:54.719 they fucking want. This is because she is considered Mexican 1:22:54.760 --> 1:22:57.240 and an icon for Mexican culture, but she wasn't born 1:22:57.240 --> 1:23:01.040 in Mexico. And Chaveel la Vargas is also related to 1:23:01.240 --> 1:23:05.000 the queerness of in the film. This is a very 1:23:05.120 --> 1:23:08.400 like nice detail in my opinion, because tavel la Baga 1:23:08.479 --> 1:23:10.200 is that old lady that you see in the movie, 1:23:10.720 --> 1:23:14.360 is actually someone who had a relationship with Frida. Oh oh, 1:23:14.439 --> 1:23:20.360 they had a very passionate affair. And Chavelas appears in 1:23:20.400 --> 1:23:27.639 Frida's movie Singing too, San Maachayek portraying Frida No, and yeah, yeah, 1:23:27.680 --> 1:23:32.320 it's it's incredible because if you don't know this nice story, 1:23:33.120 --> 1:23:36.519 you wouldn't know. That's another way that they introduced free 1:23:36.560 --> 1:23:39.839 theat Aquaerness by bringing one of her, the actual person 1:23:39.880 --> 1:23:43.879 that she had an affair with, into the film. Yeah, yeah, 1:23:44.080 --> 1:23:45.040 so cool. 1:23:45.680 --> 1:23:49.479 Oh gosh, that's just like such a w to make 1:23:49.520 --> 1:23:54.559 a cameo in your lover's biopic, Like really good stuff. 1:23:54.680 --> 1:23:56.400 That's I didn't know that. That's really cool. 1:23:56.640 --> 1:23:56.840 Yeah. 1:23:57.560 --> 1:23:59.840 Well, I think an extension of the conversation of cast 1:24:00.120 --> 1:24:02.880 in this movie can extend to the crew as far 1:24:02.920 --> 1:24:08.200 as like, why did a white woman from the US 1:24:08.520 --> 1:24:13.280 who is not Mexican or Latina? Why was she the 1:24:13.280 --> 1:24:15.439 one hired to direct this movie? Right? 1:24:15.520 --> 1:24:19.719 Why was it a majority white writers? Including Diane Lake? 1:24:20.640 --> 1:24:22.479 By the way, what was she doing here? 1:24:22.960 --> 1:24:27.759 Sworn enemy of Jamie She's my new enemy. Yes, yes, 1:24:28.400 --> 1:24:31.320 I saw that and like IMDb and I read it 1:24:31.400 --> 1:24:33.800 really quickly, and I thought it said Diane Lane. I 1:24:33.880 --> 1:24:36.760 was like, oh, wow, is Diane Lane a screenwriter? But 1:24:36.800 --> 1:24:38.680 then it's a slightly different is it? 1:24:39.200 --> 1:24:42.960 Fred Callos super fan, No I wish instead it's my 1:24:43.040 --> 1:24:46.280 sworn enemy who gave you a C because I was 1:24:46.360 --> 1:24:48.240 late to class too many times. 1:24:49.560 --> 1:24:50.120 Grow up? 1:24:50.560 --> 1:24:54.720 You know what? Lateness is just a construct invented by 1:24:54.800 --> 1:24:56.480 capitalism exactly. 1:24:56.560 --> 1:25:00.759 Lateness is on timeness leaving the body. And I don't 1:25:01.320 --> 1:25:05.040 I don't care for this. There was one writer, one 1:25:05.080 --> 1:25:07.960 credited writer because also it is said that Edward Norton 1:25:08.040 --> 1:25:10.240 worked on the screenplay but was not credited as a 1:25:10.240 --> 1:25:15.880 writer for like WGA reasons. But there was one writer 1:25:16.080 --> 1:25:20.200 of Mexican descent who worked on the screenplay, Gregory Nava, 1:25:20.720 --> 1:25:25.439 who had worked on a number of movies prior. He 1:25:25.520 --> 1:25:34.080 also directed Selena, the Jlo Celena movie. Oh yes, anyways, 1:25:34.120 --> 1:25:36.400 from what we can tell. And also it's always so 1:25:36.800 --> 1:25:42.519 inscrutable because the ways that movie writing credits happen, who knows. 1:25:42.840 --> 1:25:45.160 But yes, it seems like there was only one Mexican 1:25:45.200 --> 1:25:48.360 writer involved in the writing of this movie, although there 1:25:48.479 --> 1:25:53.880 was one famous communist writer involved, which maybe is attributable 1:25:53.960 --> 1:25:57.639 to how political this movie did get. In the script 1:25:58.200 --> 1:26:00.840 where clans I recog it is his name, and I 1:26:00.880 --> 1:26:05.120 was like why because I went into a big blacklist 1:26:05.760 --> 1:26:09.920 research hole and I wonder why. But Anyways, he was 1:26:09.960 --> 1:26:13.160 a screenwriter who was called in and subpoenaed by the 1:26:13.200 --> 1:26:17.280 House Committee of on American Activity. Is he was a 1:26:17.320 --> 1:26:21.920 card carrier communist and it seems like just generally a 1:26:21.960 --> 1:26:23.320 real one from what I can tell. 1:26:24.200 --> 1:26:28.080 So yeah, and then Diane Link Boom, and then. 1:26:27.960 --> 1:26:30.519 She's she worked on it as well, and it's her 1:26:30.560 --> 1:26:33.920 only screenwriting credit, her other credit disrespecting me. 1:26:35.720 --> 1:26:37.000 I call that a discredit. 1:26:37.439 --> 1:26:37.879 Yeah. 1:26:38.000 --> 1:26:43.400 Yeah. What I was telling Kaitling during the break is 1:26:43.439 --> 1:26:50.840 that the DP the cinematographer uses who is Yeah, he's 1:26:50.880 --> 1:26:55.120 an amazing and amazing cinematographer who is Mexican. So and 1:26:55.160 --> 1:26:58.000 I also when I saw the credits, I really saw 1:26:58.080 --> 1:27:03.360 a bad lance between male and female crew, which I enjoyed. 1:27:03.840 --> 1:27:07.559 I don't know their backgrounds, but I don't see that 1:27:07.680 --> 1:27:09.680 very often, so I was happy about it. 1:27:09.760 --> 1:27:10.880 Yeah, for sure. 1:27:11.280 --> 1:27:14.320 Yeah, I mean, especially at the top. It is largely 1:27:14.479 --> 1:27:18.800 a woman driven movie as far as the director, half 1:27:18.840 --> 1:27:22.479 of the writers, Selma Hayek producing, and. 1:27:22.400 --> 1:27:25.920 I do feel like when women are producing their own projects, 1:27:26.000 --> 1:27:29.240 you tend to see more gender parody in the cruise, 1:27:30.040 --> 1:27:32.640 which is just another way of saying you have to 1:27:32.640 --> 1:27:34.120 have representation at every level. 1:27:34.160 --> 1:27:35.439 Of production of course. 1:27:35.760 --> 1:27:39.679 Yeah, we were talking about Rodriguo Prieto, I think quite 1:27:39.720 --> 1:27:41.920 a bit earlier this year, because he just had like 1:27:42.040 --> 1:27:47.040 the wildest last year where he was the cinematographer for 1:27:47.080 --> 1:27:49.720 both Barbie and Killers of the Flower Moon, which is 1:27:49.880 --> 1:27:53.760 just like the range, the range this man has. I mean, 1:27:53.800 --> 1:27:58.040 his resume is wild. The same year he did Frida, 1:27:58.120 --> 1:28:02.800 he also did eight Mile. He's got range with I mean, 1:28:03.640 --> 1:28:06.160 he loves to do a totally different movie. 1:28:06.680 --> 1:28:11.519 Yeah. He also, like I told Caitlin, I'm a swiftly 1:28:11.680 --> 1:28:14.160 so I love him because she he directed all of 1:28:14.160 --> 1:28:17.840 my favorite videos recently. Really yeah, I didn't he was 1:28:17.880 --> 1:28:18.559 sweet Taylor. 1:28:18.760 --> 1:28:22.559 Yeah, wow, oh my god, wait, so many twists in turns. 1:28:23.920 --> 1:28:26.439 I knew that, like because he's like Martin Scorsese and 1:28:26.520 --> 1:28:29.760 Julie Taymore and I think Inatu's go to guy. 1:28:29.880 --> 1:28:33.400 Like oh right, we were talking about it because he 1:28:34.080 --> 1:28:39.360 shot Wolf of wall Street in Robbie's first major role, 1:28:39.680 --> 1:28:44.200 and then shot her whatever ten years later as Barbie. 1:28:43.800 --> 1:28:46.000 As a sorry for shooting you that way and wolf 1:28:46.040 --> 1:28:48.040 of yeah gesture. 1:28:48.960 --> 1:28:52.960 Now he literally directed the Cardigan there, wow. 1:28:52.920 --> 1:28:58.360 Cardian Fortnight. Yeah. She also works with another Cinemata refer 1:28:58.439 --> 1:29:01.519 who's a woman. Yeah, I think he's her Nay, but 1:29:01.800 --> 1:29:06.280 she also works with Rodrio Prito, so I am very proud. 1:29:06.040 --> 1:29:08.400 Of them every time. 1:29:08.479 --> 1:29:10.839 Wow, this is a fun recur He's a fun recurring 1:29:10.840 --> 1:29:13.479 Bachtel cast character because every time I learned something new 1:29:13.479 --> 1:29:16.160 about him, it is completely unexpected and fascinating. 1:29:17.080 --> 1:29:18.720 And he did a great job with this movie. It 1:29:18.840 --> 1:29:19.840 looks so cool. 1:29:19.920 --> 1:29:20.960 It's beautiful. 1:29:21.200 --> 1:29:24.400 Yeah, yeah, it's so pretty, the colors. 1:29:23.840 --> 1:29:25.960 And I just love the idea of him going back 1:29:25.960 --> 1:29:28.200 to his hotel room at the end of the day 1:29:28.280 --> 1:29:31.439 of shooting on Frida and answering an email about eight 1:29:31.479 --> 1:29:36.519 miles like, yeah, yeah, he opened up his hotmail dot 1:29:36.560 --> 1:29:41.559 com two thousand and two web book or palm pilot 1:29:41.640 --> 1:29:45.120 or whatever the fuck you were using then, So, does. 1:29:44.920 --> 1:29:49.280 Anyone have anything else to discuss? 1:29:49.560 --> 1:29:54.000 Oh, I have my notes with Osama we say in Spanish, 1:29:54.040 --> 1:29:56.839 and I take notes of everything when I get excited. 1:29:57.160 --> 1:29:59.200 But oh, I have pages of notes. 1:29:59.280 --> 1:30:00.000 You're in good comfort. 1:30:00.479 --> 1:30:05.599 Yeah, yeah. Just what I think is very nice about 1:30:05.800 --> 1:30:09.120 the movie is also they don't portray the art as 1:30:09.200 --> 1:30:13.120 much as we wanted them to do. No, as Jamie 1:30:13.120 --> 1:30:16.800 think was mentioning earlier on but what I like is 1:30:16.840 --> 1:30:21.479 that they really create these life paintings and free the 1:30:22.080 --> 1:30:25.040 an aesthetic at the end of her life that came 1:30:25.080 --> 1:30:30.000 from what we call in Mexico exbotos. Exbotos are little 1:30:30.040 --> 1:30:34.080 paintings made in rural Mexico, in outside of Mexico City. 1:30:34.960 --> 1:30:38.840 People are very Catholic, especially in those places, and when 1:30:38.880 --> 1:30:42.880 something happens to them, they pray for it to get better. Know, 1:30:43.040 --> 1:30:44.880 something bad happens, they pray for it to get better. 1:30:45.200 --> 1:30:47.160 So what they do is that they go to the 1:30:47.200 --> 1:30:52.519 town's painter, and the painter ask them what the event was, 1:30:53.760 --> 1:30:57.880 who are they praying to, what saint and who is 1:30:57.920 --> 1:31:00.839 this being dedicated to? Know, So it has a format 1:31:01.240 --> 1:31:05.360 and it's text an image of the event. And then 1:31:05.479 --> 1:31:08.040 what they do with those little paintings is that they 1:31:08.160 --> 1:31:11.040 hang them at the church. And after they leave the church, 1:31:11.080 --> 1:31:14.160 and after they have asked for help from this saint, 1:31:14.520 --> 1:31:17.519 they have to move on and carry on with their lives. Know. 1:31:18.200 --> 1:31:22.400 And Frida, I think, and this was said by Marta Samora, 1:31:22.640 --> 1:31:26.000 who was a biographer of Frida, how Frida took this 1:31:26.120 --> 1:31:29.120 idea of expotos and put it in her painting. And 1:31:29.160 --> 1:31:31.719 I think that's very nice because it's something very niche 1:31:32.080 --> 1:31:35.120 of Mexico and that most people from other countries don't know. 1:31:35.520 --> 1:31:37.479 But if they look at afrida color of painting and 1:31:37.520 --> 1:31:39.960 they look at an expoto, they will see the similarities. 1:31:40.000 --> 1:31:44.080 And Frida did this to survive. Basically, she wanted to 1:31:44.120 --> 1:31:49.360 create these paintings that looked like exbotos and she carried 1:31:49.360 --> 1:31:52.639 out that in her life. She painted with all her 1:31:52.720 --> 1:31:56.320 pain and her suffering in the canvas and this personal 1:31:56.400 --> 1:31:59.920 and political intersection that she was so good at the 1:32:00.479 --> 1:32:02.200 and she was the only one at the time that 1:32:02.240 --> 1:32:06.719 did it as well as that, and then she carried 1:32:06.760 --> 1:32:07.599 on with her life. 1:32:07.840 --> 1:32:08.280 Yeah. 1:32:08.320 --> 1:32:11.679 So it's amazing because we see her in the movie 1:32:11.720 --> 1:32:15.040 having fun. I mean, of course this in the civilization 1:32:15.080 --> 1:32:19.040 of the disability is not good, but she has fun. 1:32:19.680 --> 1:32:22.400 We also see her in other aspects now, her alcoholism, 1:32:22.520 --> 1:32:26.639 her addiction to paint bills. But Frida tried to carry 1:32:26.680 --> 1:32:31.080 on despite all of the things that went on. And 1:32:31.160 --> 1:32:33.400 I don't think it has to do with this saving 1:32:33.520 --> 1:32:37.519 race or trying to get rid of the idea of 1:32:38.320 --> 1:32:40.680 suffering and pain. But because she was a rebel at 1:32:40.680 --> 1:32:41.080 the end of the. 1:32:41.160 --> 1:32:48.320 Day, yeh, I do appreciate the movie contextualizing where some 1:32:48.400 --> 1:32:52.120 of her inspiration comes from and her paintings like something 1:32:52.120 --> 1:32:55.000 will happen and then you see it inspire one or 1:32:55.040 --> 1:32:58.439 several of her works of art. My main thing is like, 1:32:59.160 --> 1:33:01.519 I just feel like the relationship between her and Diego 1:33:01.600 --> 1:33:04.400 Rivera takes up too much narrative real estate. 1:33:04.360 --> 1:33:07.519 Which seems to be the through line with how most 1:33:07.680 --> 1:33:11.120 of the adaptations of her life in fiction like She's 1:33:11.200 --> 1:33:15.560 I feel like still too frequently presented as equally built. 1:33:15.280 --> 1:33:16.879 With because I feel like this movie is called. 1:33:16.680 --> 1:33:19.400 Frieda, but it could easily be called Frieda and Diego 1:33:19.600 --> 1:33:21.120 and yeah, yeah. 1:33:20.800 --> 1:33:25.000 Exactly right. And they wanted to be separated at the 1:33:25.080 --> 1:33:27.840 end of their when in their second marriage they had 1:33:27.840 --> 1:33:30.680 the house created by Juana Gorman in Sananjel that were 1:33:30.800 --> 1:33:36.760 two houses again goals, yeah, goals, And she didn't even 1:33:36.800 --> 1:33:38.960 live there for that long because her dad got sick 1:33:39.000 --> 1:33:42.400 and she went to La Casasoul and they lived separate 1:33:42.520 --> 1:33:45.479 lives at the end. So I don't think they wanted 1:33:45.520 --> 1:33:48.439 to be seen as an item, and they were seen 1:33:48.479 --> 1:33:52.639 as an item all throughout their relationship, so at least 1:33:52.640 --> 1:33:55.280 Frida as an art historian, of course I'm biased, but 1:33:55.360 --> 1:33:58.000 I would have liked to see her creative process a 1:33:58.000 --> 1:34:03.320 bit more same. Yeah, how did she know which colors 1:34:03.320 --> 1:34:05.799 to use? How did she decide the size of the painting? 1:34:05.920 --> 1:34:07.800 How did she come up with a little girl with 1:34:07.880 --> 1:34:11.439 the skull face, the watermelons, not all of those things? 1:34:11.520 --> 1:34:15.200 How did she decide to do that? I would have 1:34:15.280 --> 1:34:18.559 liked to see the creative process come to life instead 1:34:18.600 --> 1:34:22.720 of just being the end result of the painting exactly. 1:34:23.080 --> 1:34:23.599 I agree. 1:34:23.640 --> 1:34:27.080 I feel like this is something I've noticed in biopics 1:34:27.160 --> 1:34:31.320 about women again, specifically where it's just like there's always 1:34:31.400 --> 1:34:36.719 less focus on process when the story is about a woman. 1:34:36.880 --> 1:34:39.719 I think because I think about like biopics of the 1:34:39.800 --> 1:34:43.479 last couple of years, Oppenheimer immediately comes to mind, where 1:34:44.080 --> 1:34:47.679 there are very sort of like magical, you know, sort 1:34:47.760 --> 1:34:51.719 of the sequences about and then he's scienced or whatever, 1:34:52.600 --> 1:34:55.720 but there is also sequences where you're explained like this 1:34:55.800 --> 1:34:58.479 is the process, this is how he gets there. 1:34:58.520 --> 1:35:00.160 And I feel like even with movies about. 1:35:00.080 --> 1:35:03.080 Male artist, there is just inherently more of a focus 1:35:03.160 --> 1:35:06.599 on process. And I'm not upset that there's a focus 1:35:06.640 --> 1:35:08.640 on process, but that should be something that is like 1:35:09.000 --> 1:35:13.080 across the board available to any exceptional person exactly, like 1:35:13.120 --> 1:35:14.919 why would you not want to know how the sausage 1:35:14.960 --> 1:35:15.200 is made? 1:35:15.280 --> 1:35:18.000 And it's not very obvious if you don't know, for example, 1:35:18.000 --> 1:35:21.120 that Frida had this obsession with mirrors or with death, 1:35:21.960 --> 1:35:24.640 it's not very obvious. I mean it's in the film 1:35:24.840 --> 1:35:27.680 language now that at the beginning she starts looking at 1:35:27.680 --> 1:35:30.480 herself in the mirror and that's how the movie begins. 1:35:31.000 --> 1:35:33.960 But she truly had an obsession with looking at herself 1:35:34.000 --> 1:35:36.679 and with time passing because she spends so much time 1:35:36.720 --> 1:35:40.720 in bed with death. She wanted to die at the 1:35:40.800 --> 1:35:43.360 end of her life so bad, and when she did, 1:35:43.439 --> 1:35:47.040 she was very happy. Her last drawing said that, No, 1:35:47.680 --> 1:35:51.880 so everything that I think I would have liked to see, 1:35:52.479 --> 1:35:55.960 how do you become Frida Calo as an artist? Because 1:35:56.160 --> 1:35:59.759 as a person, I think it's clear some things missing, 1:36:00.080 --> 1:36:03.760 like with this ghost. But as an artist, how did 1:36:03.800 --> 1:36:08.839 she find that particular esthetic that is so divisive because 1:36:09.280 --> 1:36:12.240 people either love her or hate her, but it causes 1:36:12.720 --> 1:36:15.519 an impact, And how did she find that? I would 1:36:15.560 --> 1:36:17.280 have loved to see that in the movie. 1:36:17.680 --> 1:36:22.160 Yeah, yeah, I agree. I also in the like mainstream feminist. 1:36:22.800 --> 1:36:26.679 Capitalistic way. I literally it was really annoying. 1:36:26.720 --> 1:36:29.880 I saw like a modern defection of free to call it, 1:36:29.920 --> 1:36:33.080 where it's like free to caller, queen of the selfie. 1:36:32.600 --> 1:36:36.680 And you're like, no, we're like it's. 1:36:36.120 --> 1:36:40.160 Like patronizing, right, Like we're I don't know. All of 1:36:40.160 --> 1:36:43.120 her work is like you have to be having three 1:36:43.280 --> 1:36:46.120 or four conversations that wants to really talk about it 1:36:46.479 --> 1:36:49.200 and seeing people sort of cherry pick the part of 1:36:49.240 --> 1:36:52.200 her work that they resonate with and then ignoring the 1:36:52.200 --> 1:36:56.519 political aspect, ignoring the identity aspect, because so much of 1:36:56.600 --> 1:37:00.479 Freda's work was connected to her connections to my Mexico 1:37:00.640 --> 1:37:05.160 and like understanding what her identity was across time, and 1:37:05.360 --> 1:37:06.960 like it's just irritating. 1:37:07.160 --> 1:37:10.760 Only Frida could have done that, like putting such universal 1:37:10.800 --> 1:37:15.200 feelings like pain, the fear of abandonment, the fear of 1:37:15.280 --> 1:37:18.880 a miscarriage, all of those things she had depicted, but 1:37:19.520 --> 1:37:22.760 intersecting it with politics. She was a genius for that. 1:37:23.160 --> 1:37:25.160 Yes, it's awesome, and I mean the fact that so 1:37:25.200 --> 1:37:28.759 many people can miss it maybe is just like speaks 1:37:28.800 --> 1:37:31.200 to how complicated the work is. But it's also like, 1:37:31.439 --> 1:37:33.040 just read a little bit. 1:37:34.120 --> 1:37:36.200 I want to share a quote from her. I think 1:37:36.240 --> 1:37:39.800 this is something she said later in her life, but 1:37:40.040 --> 1:37:42.160 just kind of tying it back to the things that 1:37:42.240 --> 1:37:49.280 inspired her art, and the movie skimming over her political ideology, 1:37:49.320 --> 1:37:52.680 not ignoring it or erasing it, but like again, focusing 1:37:52.960 --> 1:37:59.120 way more on Diego Rivera's politics than Frida's. But she said, quote, 1:37:59.800 --> 1:38:03.400 I have a great restlessness about my paintings, mainly because 1:38:03.479 --> 1:38:07.360 I want to make it useful to the revolutionary communist movement. 1:38:07.760 --> 1:38:10.920 Until now I have managed simply an honest expression of 1:38:10.960 --> 1:38:14.200 my own self. I must struggle with all my strength 1:38:14.280 --> 1:38:17.640 to ensure that the little positive my health allows me 1:38:17.760 --> 1:38:22.400 to do also benefits the revolution, the only real reason 1:38:22.479 --> 1:38:26.559 to live unquote obviously translated from Spanish. So she was like, 1:38:27.120 --> 1:38:33.000 my work means nothing unless I'm moving the communist movement forward, 1:38:33.200 --> 1:38:36.640 is how she felt. I think later in life, and 1:38:36.720 --> 1:38:39.640 maybe also earlier, but yeah, yeah, I feel like I'm like, 1:38:39.680 --> 1:38:41.400 can we get a little more sense of that in 1:38:41.439 --> 1:38:42.400 the movie, please. 1:38:43.560 --> 1:38:45.400 I think the last thing I had that I just 1:38:45.439 --> 1:38:48.479 wanted to say, like I was glad was reflected in 1:38:48.520 --> 1:38:54.080 the movie was that even though the movie, as we've 1:38:54.280 --> 1:38:57.720 all said, is sort of unduly focused on Diego as well, 1:38:58.120 --> 1:39:01.639 I did like that we see that friendship between Frida 1:39:01.680 --> 1:39:06.000 and Lupe develop and that you get real moments, because 1:39:06.000 --> 1:39:08.200 I feel like, again I was like a little bit 1:39:08.320 --> 1:39:11.840 like oh no, Weinstein production when Lupe makes the scene 1:39:11.840 --> 1:39:14.280 at their wedding and You're just like, okay, is she 1:39:14.439 --> 1:39:17.200 just gonna be presented as irrational? 1:39:17.520 --> 1:39:19.040 And but I thought that the. 1:39:18.960 --> 1:39:22.240 Way that played out for you know, big Hollywood movie 1:39:22.360 --> 1:39:25.400 was more nuanced and thoughtful than I thought it would be, 1:39:25.479 --> 1:39:28.360 and seems to be at least the friendship is like 1:39:28.439 --> 1:39:33.920 reflective of their actual experience. And then a relationship I 1:39:33.960 --> 1:39:38.000 wish I had seen more of was between Frieda and Christina, 1:39:38.160 --> 1:39:40.880 because it seems like her relationship with Christina was very 1:39:41.360 --> 1:39:45.479 dominant in her life, and it is true that Diego 1:39:45.520 --> 1:39:48.360 had an affair with her sister. But again, I feel 1:39:48.360 --> 1:39:50.759 like the movie defers to how does Freeda feel about 1:39:50.760 --> 1:39:55.120 that in relation to Diego and doesn't really like it 1:39:55.120 --> 1:39:58.040 seems like most of the progress in the relationship with 1:39:58.080 --> 1:40:01.840 her and her sister takes place offic screen, which I 1:40:01.840 --> 1:40:03.840 don't know, I'm nipicking at this point, but it would 1:40:03.880 --> 1:40:07.000 have been nice to see the relationships that we know 1:40:07.120 --> 1:40:10.960 were very significant to free to, you know, proportionally reflected 1:40:11.040 --> 1:40:13.599 in the movie instead of just going back to Diego 1:40:13.640 --> 1:40:14.080 all the time. 1:40:14.240 --> 1:40:18.040 Heard that too, Yes, because she learned how to position 1:40:18.160 --> 1:40:21.840 people in a painting from her dad being a photographer, 1:40:21.880 --> 1:40:24.800 and her dad was a very successful photographer during the Porfiliato, 1:40:24.800 --> 1:40:28.320 which was a dictatorship regime we had before the Mexican 1:40:28.360 --> 1:40:32.919 Revolution and after her dad had a lot of problems 1:40:32.960 --> 1:40:36.679 because of the revolution, and the Mexican Revolution was based 1:40:36.720 --> 1:40:39.639 on the freedom at least one part, on the freedom 1:40:39.680 --> 1:40:43.400 of indigenous people and their land being returned to them, 1:40:43.520 --> 1:40:46.000 and well that was happening. The gorilla was in Paris 1:40:46.080 --> 1:40:51.600 learning how to paint. So it's so, it's how I 1:40:51.600 --> 1:40:56.000 would have also liked to see the context because Mexico 1:40:56.040 --> 1:41:01.200 at that time was chaotics, like very chaotic. We had 1:41:01.280 --> 1:41:04.120 just gone through a civil war, and I would have 1:41:04.200 --> 1:41:07.719 liked to see how that context affected freedom. Her family, 1:41:08.479 --> 1:41:14.200 being a bourgeois, very high class European who profited from 1:41:14.200 --> 1:41:18.040 the regime before the revolution, what that did to her life, 1:41:18.479 --> 1:41:21.920 and why that radicalizes her into communism too, So I 1:41:21.960 --> 1:41:23.080 would have liked to see that. 1:41:23.280 --> 1:41:26.760 Yeah, she you know, would frequently kind of fudge the 1:41:26.880 --> 1:41:29.080 year she was born to line up with the year 1:41:29.120 --> 1:41:32.559 that the revolution started nineteen ten. Yeah, like connect her 1:41:33.120 --> 1:41:37.600 identity to like I am a born revolutionary. 1:41:37.400 --> 1:41:40.960 Yeah, and that she would kind of erase her background 1:41:41.000 --> 1:41:44.600 coming from a like well to do family. 1:41:44.600 --> 1:41:47.800 Yeah, which Diego Rivera was also from a pretty yeah 1:41:47.880 --> 1:41:48.960 wealthy family as well. 1:41:49.360 --> 1:41:51.760 Yeah, that's why he could study art no and not. 1:41:52.720 --> 1:41:55.000 Right fuck after France for a couple of years. 1:41:55.080 --> 1:41:57.679 Yeah, and didn't become a soldier is one of the 1:41:57.680 --> 1:41:58.839 factions of the revolution. 1:41:58.960 --> 1:42:04.080 Yeahm hmmm. All this to say, I feel like Frida's 1:42:04.160 --> 1:42:08.920 life deserves a whole series rather than just a two 1:42:08.960 --> 1:42:12.800 hour film. So if we ever see any more like 1:42:12.880 --> 1:42:17.519 kind of biographical stories about her on the screen, it 1:42:17.560 --> 1:42:21.320 should be a long TV series because there's just so 1:42:21.439 --> 1:42:27.240 much well speaking to her relationships with the women in 1:42:27.280 --> 1:42:30.680 her life that the movie kind of touches on but 1:42:30.920 --> 1:42:37.599 could have examined more the Bechdel test. The movie does pass, 1:42:37.880 --> 1:42:38.400 I mean. 1:42:38.520 --> 1:42:40.720 Not as much as you would like it too for 1:42:40.800 --> 1:42:43.920 a biopic about women that had a lot of women 1:42:44.080 --> 1:42:46.439 who were important in her life. 1:42:46.479 --> 1:42:48.599 Yeah, but it does. 1:42:48.760 --> 1:42:52.439 But then she does talk to Alfred Molina a lot 1:42:52.479 --> 1:42:55.200 and to the Bye Laws of the Bechdel cast. 1:42:55.400 --> 1:42:56.519 I forgot my own role. 1:42:56.720 --> 1:43:01.479 You know, people of marginalized genders. Speaking to Alred Molina 1:43:01.640 --> 1:43:03.960 about Alfred Bina is an automatic. 1:43:04.320 --> 1:43:05.000 Yeah. 1:43:05.560 --> 1:43:08.680 Yeah, so in that way, it's actually kind of unprecedented. 1:43:08.960 --> 1:43:13.080 You have converted me to Alfred Morina fans. 1:43:13.439 --> 1:43:17.160 Yes, well, you you've joined an elite group because Alfred 1:43:17.160 --> 1:43:18.760 Molina is a past guest. 1:43:18.560 --> 1:43:22.320 Of this show. Yeah. Oh my. We still don't know 1:43:22.320 --> 1:43:23.320 how we pulled it off. 1:43:23.360 --> 1:43:26.440 We don't have to know, but we talked about Aaron Brockovich. 1:43:26.800 --> 1:43:28.400 Oh I love that movie. 1:43:28.760 --> 1:43:37.680 He's wow, that's amazing. You're amazing, King, He's amazing. I 1:43:37.720 --> 1:43:42.760 love to praise this man on our phone show. But yes, 1:43:42.800 --> 1:43:44.920 it does pass the actual test, but I do feel 1:43:44.960 --> 1:43:46.439 like I wish. 1:43:46.240 --> 1:43:49.320 It did more more. Yeah. 1:43:49.520 --> 1:43:54.040 As far as our metric, the Nipple scale scale, where 1:43:54.080 --> 1:43:57.800 we rate the movie zero to five nipples based on 1:43:58.000 --> 1:44:02.400 examining it through an intersectional Felm and this lens, I'm 1:44:02.600 --> 1:44:05.960 inclined to give it maybe like a three point five. 1:44:07.280 --> 1:44:10.759 I do wish that, you know, for a movie called 1:44:11.120 --> 1:44:16.280 freeda that is allegedly about her life, and the main 1:44:16.320 --> 1:44:18.640 thing we know about her life is that she was 1:44:18.680 --> 1:44:21.880 an artist, like you know, as a public figure. If 1:44:21.920 --> 1:44:24.599 someone's like, who's Free to Callo, You're like, oh, an 1:44:24.680 --> 1:44:28.040 artist And for us to not see as much as 1:44:28.080 --> 1:44:31.360 you would think we would about her artistic process, more 1:44:31.360 --> 1:44:34.920 about her inspirations, so much narrative real estate going to 1:44:35.000 --> 1:44:37.960 her relationship with Diego Rivera, And yes, that was an 1:44:38.000 --> 1:44:41.120 important relationship in her life. But I feel like we 1:44:41.240 --> 1:44:44.720 end up learning more about Diego Rivera than we do 1:44:44.840 --> 1:44:49.879 about Free to Callo and her backstory and her political 1:44:49.920 --> 1:44:54.240 ideologies and her identity and all this stuff. So wish 1:44:54.520 --> 1:44:57.679 the movie had focused a bit more on Freeda. 1:44:58.680 --> 1:45:00.599 Doesn't feel like too much to ask. 1:45:01.080 --> 1:45:04.519 It doesn't, but I do. I do appreciate that. Again, 1:45:04.600 --> 1:45:08.280 for a movie from two thousand and two, which was, like, 1:45:08.280 --> 1:45:11.680 you know, a Hollywood produced movie, I assumed that so 1:45:11.840 --> 1:45:18.720 much of her, especially her queerness and her communist ideology, 1:45:19.160 --> 1:45:23.080 would have been erased or really really downplayed, maybe only 1:45:23.120 --> 1:45:26.280 mentioned in passing but never shown on screen. But like, 1:45:26.560 --> 1:45:31.360 you have three different romantic or sexual moments between her 1:45:31.560 --> 1:45:34.799 and another woman in the movie. One of them carries 1:45:34.840 --> 1:45:37.840 a lot of baggage because it was basically forced to 1:45:37.920 --> 1:45:41.360 exist by Harvey Weinstein, but the benefit of it is 1:45:41.400 --> 1:45:46.040 that you do see this like steamy, perhaps exploitative, but 1:45:47.000 --> 1:45:47.439 I know it. 1:45:47.439 --> 1:45:50.519 It's like knowing that Salma Hayek felt ill the day 1:45:50.560 --> 1:45:51.240 that has happened. 1:45:51.560 --> 1:45:52.120 I just it. 1:45:52.760 --> 1:45:57.280 I Ugh, Yeah, Harvey Weinstein can't suffer enough. 1:45:57.120 --> 1:45:58.200 As far as I'm concerned. 1:45:58.280 --> 1:46:01.519 No rot in hell, but the fact that there is, 1:46:01.640 --> 1:46:03.800 because in two thousand and two it was very hard 1:46:03.880 --> 1:46:07.639 to find even if there were queer characters, we wouldn't 1:46:07.720 --> 1:46:12.920 see any type of like kissing between two women or 1:46:13.000 --> 1:46:16.240 kissing betraying men or anything like that. It is a 1:46:16.320 --> 1:46:17.479 relief to see that. 1:46:17.640 --> 1:46:17.920 I mean. 1:46:17.960 --> 1:46:20.920 And also with Josephine Baker, which I didn't know. I 1:46:21.000 --> 1:46:23.120 was like, she also had an affair with Georgia O'Keefe, 1:46:23.120 --> 1:46:24.519 but I guess that they were like, we've hit the 1:46:24.600 --> 1:46:27.840 upper limit of affairs we can show in this movie. 1:46:27.920 --> 1:46:30.719 But I was like, if they gave Trotsky a steamy 1:46:30.840 --> 1:46:33.360 kiss and we don't see a queer love scene, I'm 1:46:33.400 --> 1:46:37.160 gonna I'm gonna like explore not that, but like, just 1:46:37.840 --> 1:46:41.240 it was very weird seeing Trotsky in a horny count Yeah. 1:46:41.400 --> 1:46:44.960 I hated so hard, so weird. 1:46:45.160 --> 1:46:46.760 Jeffrey Rush get away from her. 1:46:47.439 --> 1:46:52.800 I don't want to see that ever, Horny Trotsky, No, 1:46:53.000 --> 1:46:54.639 thank you whatever, good for them. 1:46:54.720 --> 1:46:56.479 I'm happy for them, but I don't want to I 1:46:56.479 --> 1:46:57.400 don't want to look at. 1:46:57.320 --> 1:47:01.080 It nor anyway of the day. I mean, this is 1:47:01.080 --> 1:47:07.280 a movie about a queer, disabled communist Latina artist, and 1:47:07.439 --> 1:47:11.040 the movie is like, yes, that's all here. We're used 1:47:11.040 --> 1:47:13.639 to crumbs and this movie gives you more than crumbs. 1:47:13.880 --> 1:47:17.200 Yeah, and the movie is not criticizing her for because 1:47:17.200 --> 1:47:21.080 I feel like often when we see marginalized characters, it's like, 1:47:21.800 --> 1:47:24.519 I don't know, it's just led to their downfall or 1:47:24.520 --> 1:47:27.639 whatever exactly, or like the movie is encouraging you to 1:47:27.680 --> 1:47:28.639 not be on their side. 1:47:29.040 --> 1:47:32.559 And what led to her downfall we know by what 1:47:32.600 --> 1:47:35.360 the movie says is in big part a man, which 1:47:35.439 --> 1:47:36.719 I think is very accurate. 1:47:37.280 --> 1:47:41.439 So true, that certainly seems that way. 1:47:41.640 --> 1:47:44.640 Yeah, and they also portrayed the alcoholism part, which I 1:47:44.640 --> 1:47:46.760 think is very important. They don't say that a lot 1:47:46.800 --> 1:47:50.639 about free them. She was an alcoholic, so it's important 1:47:50.680 --> 1:47:53.880 to talk about it. So yeah, I think it portrays 1:47:54.400 --> 1:47:57.360 the nuances of her life very well, but I think 1:47:57.400 --> 1:48:01.800 it could do it more. Of course, what I am satisfied, 1:48:02.160 --> 1:48:05.840 I think it's I watched it as a little girl, 1:48:05.880 --> 1:48:09.800 I shouldn't have. I got scarred for life by seeing 1:48:09.800 --> 1:48:13.680 Freda's sister betray her in that way. But now as 1:48:13.720 --> 1:48:17.960 an adult, I think that this is a very good movie. 1:48:18.640 --> 1:48:22.719 At least two understand how we can start to think 1:48:22.760 --> 1:48:26.400 about biopics in a way that they actually portray the 1:48:26.479 --> 1:48:29.600 character in an integral manner and not just pick and 1:48:29.680 --> 1:48:31.559 choose whatever we want to make them. 1:48:32.960 --> 1:48:34.000 Yeah, I agree. 1:48:34.680 --> 1:48:37.320 So you're going three and a half, kid, Yes, I'm 1:48:37.360 --> 1:48:43.360 going three and a half. I will distribute them between Samahayek. 1:48:44.000 --> 1:48:47.920 I want to give at least one nipple to the 1:48:48.680 --> 1:48:56.640 wedding toast that actually judges character. Yes, I love that 1:48:56.720 --> 1:49:00.760 so much. If anyone ever asks me to give a 1:49:00.800 --> 1:49:04.080 toast at their wedding, I'm just going to cite that 1:49:04.240 --> 1:49:07.479 exact speech noted because it's basically she's just like, I 1:49:07.520 --> 1:49:10.840 don't believe in marriage. I think it's either delusional or 1:49:11.520 --> 1:49:15.559 a way to trap women. But if people recognize that 1:49:15.600 --> 1:49:18.639 and they decide to get married anyway, then good for you. 1:49:19.400 --> 1:49:22.839 That's pretty cool, and that's how I feel about marriage. 1:49:22.920 --> 1:49:27.920 So one nipple, two the representation of free to call 1:49:28.080 --> 1:49:32.200 having underarm hair very good. That is something you don't 1:49:32.479 --> 1:49:34.880 see in movies, where like there will be a movie 1:49:35.040 --> 1:49:38.880 either at a time or a place where women would 1:49:38.880 --> 1:49:42.799 not have removed their body hair, but because it's a movie, 1:49:42.880 --> 1:49:47.080 it's like, yeah, all these characters in Cold Mountain don't 1:49:47.280 --> 1:49:49.960 have any body hair, and it's just like what right? 1:49:50.720 --> 1:49:52.760 Or when you see like I'm trying to think of 1:49:52.840 --> 1:49:53.280 what there. 1:49:53.360 --> 1:49:56.080 I saw a historical movie. 1:49:55.800 --> 1:50:01.160 Recently with nudity and every woman had a wax, and 1:50:01.200 --> 1:50:02.640 You're like, what is this? 1:50:03.000 --> 1:50:04.599 Like what are we doing here? 1:50:05.120 --> 1:50:08.559 Yeah, it feels like such a tiny thing, but it 1:50:08.600 --> 1:50:12.040 is wild how historically recently, just like any sort of 1:50:12.280 --> 1:50:14.880 body hair was just sober boten. There was like that 1:50:15.360 --> 1:50:18.280 red Carpet moment with Julia Roberts, like less than twenty 1:50:18.400 --> 1:50:20.720 years ago where she had armpit hair and it was. 1:50:20.760 --> 1:50:24.439 Like a global news story. You're like, grow up. 1:50:24.800 --> 1:50:27.800 Yeah, anyways, and then whatever I have left, I'm not 1:50:27.840 --> 1:50:30.400 really keeping track, but I would certainly want to give 1:50:30.439 --> 1:50:34.280 some of my nippleage to free to call oh herself, Yeah, 1:50:34.600 --> 1:50:35.599 feminist icon. 1:50:38.400 --> 1:50:40.280 I'm gonna do three and a half as well. I 1:50:40.320 --> 1:50:42.640 think that because you could just as easily call this 1:50:42.680 --> 1:50:46.040 movie Free to in Diego sort of takes away a 1:50:46.080 --> 1:50:48.000 little bit of like the focus where you want the 1:50:48.320 --> 1:50:51.679 movie to be, and I do agree that it seems 1:50:51.720 --> 1:50:53.920 to be at least as far as biopics go, and 1:50:53.960 --> 1:50:57.920 like how wildly inaccurate biopics tend to. 1:50:57.880 --> 1:51:00.880 Be or gloss over entire areas. 1:51:00.640 --> 1:51:04.400 Of the subject's identity because of what is considered acceptable 1:51:04.400 --> 1:51:06.519 to a mainstream audience at the time of production. I 1:51:06.560 --> 1:51:09.680 think this movie does so much more than I was 1:51:09.720 --> 1:51:14.599 expecting and does seem to be like a solid sort 1:51:14.640 --> 1:51:18.519 of one on one to what Frida's life was sort 1:51:18.520 --> 1:51:21.040 of in the in the major beats, but there's no Yeah. 1:51:21.040 --> 1:51:24.080 I wish that there was more focus on her artwork, 1:51:24.120 --> 1:51:28.200 her process, and what motivated her art, versus this hyper 1:51:28.240 --> 1:51:31.680 fixation on the relationship with Diego, because that can be 1:51:31.720 --> 1:51:34.800 important in her life and not be the thrust of 1:51:34.960 --> 1:51:37.200 her life, which it seems like towards the end of 1:51:37.200 --> 1:51:40.639 her life how she felt as well, also huge question 1:51:40.720 --> 1:51:43.160 of like would she want her life story be commodified 1:51:43.200 --> 1:51:43.920 into a movie? 1:51:44.840 --> 1:51:49.040 Maybe not but by Hollywood no, definitely not. 1:51:49.320 --> 1:51:56.040 Yes, made by a sex criminal multi millionaire no. 1:51:55.560 --> 1:51:58.120 Right, So it's also dogging, I mean, just the darkness 1:51:58.200 --> 1:52:02.360 in this production. I hate how it's like such a 1:52:02.400 --> 1:52:07.120 horrible example of how even making art that is, you know, 1:52:07.439 --> 1:52:11.920 more subversive than you're used to seeing required on Selma 1:52:11.960 --> 1:52:16.160 Hyak's part, the like cooperation with an absolute monster to 1:52:16.200 --> 1:52:19.680 even make it possible, and subsequently erasing all of her 1:52:19.720 --> 1:52:22.400 amazing production work and all of this stuff, and having 1:52:22.479 --> 1:52:25.720 the release and the awards campaign for this movie to 1:52:25.760 --> 1:52:30.679 be completely sabotaged basically. But anyways, I like the movie 1:52:30.880 --> 1:52:34.280 quite a bit, and so I'm going to give one 1:52:34.360 --> 1:52:38.960 nipple to free to callow one nipple to Salma Hayek. 1:52:39.840 --> 1:52:44.160 I'm going to give hm Well one nipple. 1:52:43.920 --> 1:52:47.040 To olt from Malina Well of course, and I'll give 1:52:47.080 --> 1:52:51.679 my final half in a showing of waving the little 1:52:51.680 --> 1:52:52.320 white flag. 1:52:52.479 --> 1:52:54.320 I'll give the last half to Diane Lake. 1:52:55.320 --> 1:52:57.000 Whoa see, I thought you were going to be like 1:52:57.000 --> 1:52:59.760 and I'm going to give a pile of shaite to 1:52:59.800 --> 1:53:00.519 die and like. 1:53:00.960 --> 1:53:03.360 I'm growing up. We'll let bygone speak up by gones. 1:53:03.439 --> 1:53:06.799 Yeah, two hours ago you were a different person. 1:53:07.080 --> 1:53:10.320 Yeah, but she was so wrong to give me a sea. 1:53:11.000 --> 1:53:13.320 Come on, maybe your class was less boring. 1:53:13.360 --> 1:53:14.519 I want to showed up on time. 1:53:15.120 --> 1:53:18.439 Who maybe if all you did, if she did Okay, 1:53:18.439 --> 1:53:20.200 now I'm being meeting again. All she ever did was 1:53:20.240 --> 1:53:22.280 talk about how she was a credited writer on Freda. 1:53:22.439 --> 1:53:23.000 Oh my god. 1:53:23.000 --> 1:53:26.200 I was like, yeah, they came out fifteen years ago, lady, 1:53:26.800 --> 1:53:28.120 what's new anyways? 1:53:28.240 --> 1:53:28.559 All right? 1:53:28.640 --> 1:53:33.360 Sorry, anyway, Anela, how about you? What say you? 1:53:33.720 --> 1:53:36.400 I agree with you. I think three and a half 1:53:36.560 --> 1:53:41.040 is a good rating. My first nipple goes to Saramahayak 1:53:41.040 --> 1:53:45.200 two because she did this amazing production and I think 1:53:45.560 --> 1:53:49.440 I'm very proud that she's my my Paisana. 1:53:49.600 --> 1:53:49.960 Yes. 1:53:50.320 --> 1:53:54.400 Then my second one would go to the scene the 1:53:54.439 --> 1:53:59.840 sequence that has Treats giving assassinated Anthea painting the two 1:54:00.040 --> 1:54:02.080 that's at the same time. I found such a good 1:54:02.320 --> 1:54:06.200 sequence that was my favorite part of the movie. And 1:54:06.960 --> 1:54:10.360 the third one I would like to give to Frida 1:54:10.439 --> 1:54:16.280 as an artist, but also particularly her showing up to 1:54:16.360 --> 1:54:20.280 the exhibition for the last in her bed. 1:54:20.600 --> 1:54:23.000 Yeah, it's such a good moment. Yeah. 1:54:23.120 --> 1:54:26.760 Yeah. And some doctors think that that probably was the 1:54:26.760 --> 1:54:29.720 thing that ended up killing her going out like that, 1:54:30.000 --> 1:54:32.520 but I mean it was worth it, I think for her, 1:54:33.040 --> 1:54:35.640 and I think it was such a good moment both 1:54:35.680 --> 1:54:36.880 in the movie and in her life. 1:54:36.960 --> 1:54:37.320 Yeah. 1:54:37.440 --> 1:54:39.520 I like the part where she's like, burn this judas 1:54:39.560 --> 1:54:43.600 of a body because it betrays me. She was in 1:54:43.680 --> 1:54:47.600 so much pain. Yeah, she was absolutely suffering. 1:54:47.880 --> 1:54:51.120 And there are some historians that believe that she committed 1:54:51.160 --> 1:54:55.040 suicide by taking eleven instead of the seven pills she 1:54:55.160 --> 1:54:59.280 had prescribed to her, because her nurse said that. But 1:54:59.320 --> 1:55:02.120 we don't know. She died on her own terms, and 1:55:02.120 --> 1:55:04.200 she didd everything on her own terms, and I think 1:55:04.200 --> 1:55:07.960 that's amazing. My half of a star would go to 1:55:08.120 --> 1:55:12.640 Rodrigo Prieto because yes, yes, he's also my Paisano. And 1:55:12.680 --> 1:55:14.960 the cinematography is amazing, and he gave us a lot 1:55:14.960 --> 1:55:17.760 of different movies to talk about in the span of 1:55:17.760 --> 1:55:19.240 two minutes, so it was great. 1:55:19.440 --> 1:55:22.920 Yes we should, Kaitlin now would be a good idea 1:55:22.960 --> 1:55:25.720 for the Matreon. Just choose two random movies. He was 1:55:25.720 --> 1:55:29.040 a cinematographer for you could pick almost any genre of movie. 1:55:29.640 --> 1:55:33.880 Let's do it. Let's do that for December, yeah, in November. 1:55:34.480 --> 1:55:38.080 Thank you so much Angle for joining us and for 1:55:38.160 --> 1:55:42.720 lending your expertise. Is there anything you'd like to plug 1:55:42.840 --> 1:55:44.280 or anything like that. 1:55:44.640 --> 1:55:47.320 I would like people to look at Tina Modotti's pictures, 1:55:47.920 --> 1:55:50.880 her photographs. I would like to plug her even though 1:55:50.920 --> 1:55:53.320 she's been dead for a few years now, because she's 1:55:53.360 --> 1:55:56.200 portraying the movie and her pictures are portrayed for a 1:55:56.280 --> 1:56:00.680 quick sequence. But I think that it's amazing how she 1:56:00.920 --> 1:56:05.360 depicted everything communism and the Mexican Revolution and the Mexican 1:56:05.440 --> 1:56:07.680 working class through her pictures. So look at in them 1:56:07.720 --> 1:56:13.600 out these pictures. My Instagram account is Angela CMPs. It's 1:56:13.920 --> 1:56:16.600 private for now, but I'll make it public for a 1:56:16.640 --> 1:56:20.440 couple of days if anyone wants to follow act now 1:56:20.800 --> 1:56:23.160 because if not, my students will find it and I 1:56:23.160 --> 1:56:28.160 don't want them following me because teenagers in social media 1:56:28.200 --> 1:56:34.600 are not my favorite thing. So that's about it. Thank 1:56:34.640 --> 1:56:37.640 you so much for having me. I could talk to 1:56:37.840 --> 1:56:42.800 two amazing women for two hours about my favorite topic. 1:56:42.920 --> 1:56:46.000 So I don't know why I cannot do this every 1:56:46.040 --> 1:56:47.520 day of my life, but I wish I could. 1:56:49.080 --> 1:56:52.720 We'll have you back for another movie. Yeah, come back anytime. 1:56:53.320 --> 1:56:55.680 Whenever you want to have me. I'll come back because 1:56:55.720 --> 1:56:57.360 I had so much fun. Thank you very much. 1:56:57.400 --> 1:57:00.680 Oh my gosh, thank you. I had a class truly. 1:57:00.760 --> 1:57:01.080 Yeah. 1:57:01.320 --> 1:57:04.640 And as far as where you can find us, it's 1:57:04.800 --> 1:57:10.120 on the same old places Instagram. It's on the Patreon 1:57:10.200 --> 1:57:15.560 aka Matreon five bucks a month, two bonus episodes every month, 1:57:15.600 --> 1:57:17.360 plus the back catalog. 1:57:17.160 --> 1:57:21.760 Right now, because it's ok tuba. We are doing two 1:57:22.160 --> 1:57:26.560 scary movies that center women, we did and we just 1:57:26.640 --> 1:57:29.800 an episode on the Exorcist and we're covering Pearl later 1:57:29.920 --> 1:57:33.000 in the month. So yeah, head over there, check that out. 1:57:33.000 --> 1:57:35.200 You can get our merch at teapublic dot com. Slash 1:57:35.280 --> 1:57:38.400 the Bechdel Cast And. 1:57:38.880 --> 1:57:40.960 With that, I'm gonna get in bed and then make 1:57:41.000 --> 1:57:44.640 a bunch of men carry me around in bed. 1:57:45.400 --> 1:57:46.080 As you should. 1:57:46.440 --> 1:57:50.240 Yes go, everyone deserves that moment. 1:57:50.360 --> 1:57:54.200 Yep, bye bye. 1:57:57.160 --> 1:58:00.440 The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, host by 1:58:00.520 --> 1:58:04.360 Caitlin Derante and Jamie Loftis, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited 1:58:04.480 --> 1:58:07.640 by Moe laboord our theme song was composed by Mike 1:58:07.760 --> 1:58:12.120 Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Voskressensky. Our logo and merch 1:58:12.280 --> 1:58:15.240 is designed by Jamie Loftis and a special thanks to 1:58:15.280 --> 1:58:19.640 Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit 1:58:19.760 --> 1:58:21.280 linktree slash Bechdelcast