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Speaker 1: On the Bechdelcast, the questions ask if movies have women

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Speaker 1: and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands

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Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph and

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Speaker 1: best start changing it.

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Speaker 2: With the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 3: Hey, Jamie, Hi, Caitlin, would you draw me like one

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Speaker 3: of your freeda girls self portraits?

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Speaker 2: Question Mark. Well, no, that's not how that works at all.

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Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, that doesn't make sense. That's not how that works.

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Speaker 4: I appreciate the ask, but really, you really need to

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Speaker 4: look within, look.

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Speaker 2: To your darkest parts.

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Speaker 3: What I should have said is, hey, Caitlin, would you

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Speaker 3: draw me like one of your selves?

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Speaker 2: You know, we'll get there, We'll continue to navigate.

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Speaker 3: It's a work in progress.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, this joke will kind of coagulate throughout the episode.

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Speaker 4: In the meantime, Welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name

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Speaker 4: is Jamie Loftus, my name is Caitlin Derante. This is

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Speaker 4: our podcast where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens,

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Speaker 4: using the Bechdel Test simply as a jumping off point.

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Speaker 4: And what is that though? I wonder well. The Bechdel

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Speaker 4: test is a media metric originally created by queer cartoonist

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Speaker 4: Alison Bechdel, often called the Bechdel Wallace Test because it

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Speaker 4: was co created with her friend Liz Wallace. Originally made

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Speaker 4: as a bit as will become actually relevant in today's episode,

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Speaker 4: but it was originally created as a bit for her

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Speaker 4: comic collection Dykes to watch out for, and was originally

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Speaker 4: sort of this conversation about how not just women or

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Speaker 4: people of marginalized genders never talk to each other in movies,

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Speaker 4: but how.

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Speaker 2: Queer women specifically never get to talk to each other

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Speaker 2: in movies.

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Speaker 4: A lot of versions of this test, the one we

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Speaker 4: use requires that two characters of a marginalized gender with

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Speaker 4: names speak to each other about something other than a

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Speaker 4: man for more than two lines of dialogue, and it

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Speaker 4: should be you know, a plot relevant exchange that would

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Speaker 4: be nice, and we're we're going to get into it today.

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Speaker 4: So let's get our guest in here, a long time

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Speaker 4: movie request, and it's happening, baby, It's finally here.

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Speaker 3: Our guest is an art historian and is currently in

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Speaker 3: a PhD program in art and education. So I am

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Speaker 3: not the person with the highest degree.

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Speaker 2: Hey, don't be humble. You used to teach paint night you.

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Speaker 3: Art, Yeah, but I only have a master's. I don't

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Speaker 3: have a PhD.

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Speaker 2: That's true. And you do need a master's to do

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Speaker 2: paint night.

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Speaker 3: You need a PhD to teach paint night class. Sorry,

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Speaker 3: I have completely derailed your introduction. But yes, art historian

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Speaker 3: and in a PhD program in art and education. It's

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Speaker 3: an hala campos. Welcome, helone, welcome. Bye.

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Speaker 5: I'm very happy to be here, so excited.

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Speaker 3: So happy to have you.

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Speaker 5: I still only have a master's degree.

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Speaker 3: Too, So okay, well that makes me feel better.

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Speaker 5: I'm currently in the PhD program. So yeah, it's fine, mate,

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Speaker 5: It's it's okay. Don't worry. We're in the same.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I will not be upscaled on my own podcast. No,

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Speaker 3: So we're talking about Freda, the two thousand and two

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Speaker 3: biopic directed by Julie Taymoor starring Salma Hayek, and.

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Speaker 2: Well, come on, and Alfred Molina.

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Speaker 3: And sorry, Alfred, of course, Alfred Molina.

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Speaker 2: Now hold the damn phone. We can't. Let's not bury

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Speaker 2: the wee.

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Speaker 4: Alfred Molina is in this.

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Speaker 3: Movie, sorry to erase a male presence.

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Speaker 4: Well, as we've said many times on this show, and

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Speaker 4: it will be complicated in this movie. If Alfred Molina

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Speaker 4: is speaking, it passes the factel test automatically rules be damned.

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Speaker 3: That is yes, yes, Well, we haven't brought up Alfred

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Speaker 3: Molina quite some time.

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Speaker 2: It's because you got married, so I'm moving on.

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Speaker 3: He's off the market for you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Anyways, sorry, So we're talking about Freda and we're curious, Angela,

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Speaker 3: what is your relationship with the movie with Frieda Callo

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Speaker 3: as an artist and historical figure. Tell us everything.

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Speaker 5: Well, first, I remember watching the movie when I was

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Speaker 5: way too young to be able to watch it. I

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Speaker 5: remember that it was I don't know if my mom

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Speaker 5: had it on DVD or something, but I remember watching

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Speaker 5: it because especially the scene. I don't want any spoilers yet,

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Speaker 5: but the scene with the sister traumatized me horribly. Oh yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 5: So I remember tiny parts of the film in my

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Speaker 5: unconscious mind, and I never rewatched it until I started

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Speaker 5: studying artists at eighteen nineteen years old. So, when you're

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Speaker 5: an art historian, especially in Mexico, you're kind of tired

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Speaker 5: of Frida Calo. Well, even if you're a Mexican person,

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Speaker 5: you're kind of tired of of Frida because she has

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Speaker 5: been exploited by the capitalist system in a way that

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Speaker 5: she would have hated being a communist.

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Speaker 3: No exactly.

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Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, but she's constantly, constantly in our media, in

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Speaker 5: our international propaganda to come to Mexico and the idea

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Speaker 5: people have of Mexico so as a Mexican is it's

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Speaker 5: kind of annoying. So people tend to put her away,

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Speaker 5: no and say, ah, Frida Calo, I don't like her.

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Speaker 5: No so, And the taboo in art history, I believe

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Speaker 5: is to like her. So when I had my twentieth

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Speaker 5: century art class, because you have other artists from twentieth

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Speaker 5: century that are important, like Marie Squiero, not Tina Modotti,

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Speaker 5: who is in a movie of course, Remeliosa or Leonora Carlington.

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Speaker 5: All of these women that surrounded the same a time

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Speaker 5: and space as Prida Galo tend to be more popular

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Speaker 5: within the art history crowd. But then you realize, when

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Speaker 5: I had my art history class for the twentieth century,

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Speaker 5: I really found out the true sense and the true

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Speaker 5: the importance of fridacal No. Her paintings are not only

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Speaker 5: this thing of oh I'm so sad, I'm so sick.

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Speaker 5: I have a horrible life, which we all complain about constantly.

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Speaker 5: But it's a thing of how she pioneered something in

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Speaker 5: art that is so common nowadays, and maybe that's why

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Speaker 5: we don't notice it or consider it as important because

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Speaker 5: we have normalized it. But she did it first, and

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Speaker 5: it's not about her technique, her esthetic. It's about that

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Speaker 5: innovation that she brought to art history. And I found

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Speaker 5: that out until I studied the twentieth century in the

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Speaker 5: last symesters of my degree, and it was extramely shocking

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Speaker 5: because I realized my internalized missa genia against Rida Callo,

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Speaker 5: my prejudices against her, and how stereotypes of her had

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Speaker 5: shaped the image I had of her, instead of just

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Speaker 5: letting go and going with the flow and realize myself

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Speaker 5: if I liked her or not, which is something that

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Speaker 5: I also think. S al Mahaik said about her that

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Speaker 5: she didn't like her at first, and then she explored

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Speaker 5: her and she realized that she was amazing. That's what

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Speaker 5: happened to me too. So that's my journey with Ridakalo

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Speaker 5: and now I of course love her and yeah, what

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Speaker 5: about you so interesting?

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Speaker 3: I mean that, Yeah, I feel like that happens a

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Speaker 3: lot where something gets mainstream afied.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, like over it's like saying you like Coldplay.

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Speaker 3: You're like, exactly, sure you do, but everybody does.

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Speaker 5: Everybody does, and everybody when they come to Mexico. I

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Speaker 5: have cousins in Spain and they're like, I want to

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Speaker 5: see Frida. I want to see Frida, And I was like,

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Speaker 5: they behave, like Frida and Diego are the Sistine Chapel

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Speaker 5: or something, And then I realize they are for people

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Speaker 5: that aren't from here. And we have normalized going to

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Speaker 5: be Yes artists and se Diego's murals, we have normalized

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Speaker 5: being close to Lacasa Soul. We have normalized those things

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Speaker 5: about these great artists because we have them at least

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Speaker 5: in Mexico City, and being very centralist here unfortunately, but

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Speaker 5: at least in Mexico City, we have them very close

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Speaker 5: to us. So it's also a thing of re cherishing

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Speaker 5: what we have in our own art history and realizing

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Speaker 5: it's it's not just anything that we should skip and

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Speaker 5: and consider. Oh again, no, it's examly that we should

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Speaker 5: maybe explore from other perspectives.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes things are very well known because they are good, yeah,

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Speaker 3: and it so rarely happens, but in the case of

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Speaker 3: Free to Callow, It's true. Yes, Jimmy, how about you?

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Speaker 3: What's your history?

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Speaker 4: I had not seen this movie before for a silly

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Speaker 4: reason that I will get to.

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Speaker 2: But I was introduced to.

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Speaker 4: Frieda Callo's work through what we're going to talk about today,

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Speaker 4: this very sort of sanitized image of who she was.

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Speaker 4: I probably was introduced to Free to Callo in high school,

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Speaker 4: like on a pair of socks or something. I like,

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Speaker 4: she's a very frequently and like you were saying on

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Speaker 4: there's like the fact that her politics mean that she

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Speaker 4: would fucking hate that.

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Speaker 2: But she felt like, Yeah.

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Speaker 4: This pantheon of frequently reproduced figures that I actually didn't

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Speaker 4: know much about. You would see her next to like

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Speaker 4: Einstein and like all of these sort of iconic innovative

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Speaker 4: people just presented without context for monetary gain.

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Speaker 2: That's how I learned who she was. And then I.

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Speaker 4: Did read the book this movie is based on in

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Speaker 4: high school, a biography of Free to Callo by Hated Herrera.

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Speaker 4: I read that in high school and like completely fell

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Speaker 4: in love with her just out of sight. I have

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Speaker 4: a framed print of the two Fridas. Yeah, the more

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Speaker 4: I learned about her I mean she's still to this day.

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Speaker 4: I mean it's like a travesty that she's presented, so,

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Speaker 4: you know, simply, and I feel like in this way

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Speaker 4: that is very white feminism driven, completely lacking context, lacking

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Speaker 4: her politics, lacking her identity, and lacking her queerness as well,

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Speaker 4: like which was something I had to learn from a book.

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Speaker 4: It wasn't something that was readily being printed about her

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Speaker 4: when I was in high school.

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Speaker 2: So I've always been fascinated by her.

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Speaker 4: I avoided this movie for years because a college professor

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Speaker 4: who was really mean to me is one of the

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Speaker 4: credited screenwriters. So for one of so, Diane Lake, I'm

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Speaker 4: calling your ass out. You were such an asshole to

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Speaker 4: me in twenty fourteen, and so, I like kind of

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Speaker 4: vowed to never watch this movie due to the.

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Speaker 2: Transgressions of one Diane Lake.

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Speaker 4: However, I am very glad that I finally have cause

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Speaker 4: to watch it because there's so much to talk about.

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Speaker 2: I'm so curious, but I don't know.

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Speaker 4: I feel like I'm going to figure out how I

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Speaker 4: feel about it in real time. I like Julie Taymoor

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Speaker 4: in general. I think she's a very creative director.

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Speaker 2: I was one of the cringe fans of across the

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Speaker 2: universe me too, good, good, Yeah, I love her.

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Speaker 5: I still played for my students when we see the

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Speaker 5: Vietnam War and stuff. I still play something because it's amazing.

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Speaker 5: I don't care.

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Speaker 2: I was like, you had to be there, and if

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Speaker 2: you were there.

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Speaker 5: You understand exactly. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, we'll talk about her a little bit.

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Speaker 4: I've also wanted to shout out her funniest credit, which

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Speaker 4: is the Bad Spider Man music.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Killing All the Spider.

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Speaker 5: Man, the musical that she'll not be named. Yes.

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Speaker 4: So anyways, I hadn't seen it, and I am very

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Speaker 4: glad that I did, because it gave me like reason

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Speaker 4: to revisit her life, which I hadn't in a while. Kaitline,

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Speaker 4: what is your history with this film and this political figure.

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Speaker 3: I had seen the movie before, probably about twenty years ago,

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Speaker 3: and I didn't revisit it, although I remember liking it

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Speaker 3: at the time, but enough time had passed that I

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Speaker 3: forgot almost everything you learn in the movie, and then

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Speaker 3: I relearned much of it by visiting the Free to

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Speaker 3: Callo Museum in Mexico City. I went to La Casasoul

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Speaker 3: and I went with friend of the cast Adriana Ortega,

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Speaker 3: who was on our Youtumama dambiena episode Loved and who

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Speaker 3: coincidentally connected us with you Anhela.

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Speaker 2: She's just the best.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, she's Yeah.

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Speaker 3: She took me to the museum and obviously much of

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Speaker 3: her art is in the museum, as well as like

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Speaker 3: different dresses she wore, different outfits she wore throughout her life,

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Speaker 3: different kind of medical apparatus that she wore, and I

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Speaker 3: was like, oh, right, she's dealt with chronic pain throughout

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Speaker 3: her life. I also relearned that she was a communist.

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Speaker 3: I relearned that she was bisexual, all this stuff, and

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Speaker 3: I was like, oh yeah. And then so remembering that

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Speaker 3: this was about a year ago that I went to

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Speaker 3: the museum and relearned all this information, So I was like,

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Speaker 3: I wonder how much of that is in this biopic,

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Speaker 3: because I was like, I bet Hollywood is gonna like

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Speaker 3: wash a lot of that out.

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Speaker 2: I thought that.

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Speaker 4: Her bisexuality would have been sanitized big time.

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Speaker 3: But I mean, there are a lot of aspects of

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Speaker 3: Freda's life, as far as I can tell, that are

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Speaker 3: somewhat erased or scaled back on in this biopic, But

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Speaker 3: it does show more about her than what I would

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Speaker 3: have expected, because I was like, oh, I bet this

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Speaker 3: movie like Capitalism washes her political ideology. I bet it

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Speaker 3: straight washes her queerness, you know, but it it doesn't.

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Speaker 3: It doesn't. And we'll talk about that a lot. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: I really enjoyed going to the museum and learning about it,

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Speaker 3: and then rewatching this movie. I was like, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 3: setting aside things that the movie might again scale back

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Speaker 3: on or kind of a RaSE about Frida's life, it's

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Speaker 3: a really enjoyable movie.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I find it very fun and entertaining, and I enjoy

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Speaker 3: it just as a piece of cinema. And then I

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Speaker 3: also I didn't finish it. I have about twenty minutes left.

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Speaker 3: But there's a documentary called Freeda that came out recently, yeah,

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Speaker 3: on Prime that takes excerpts from her diary, from letters

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Speaker 3: she wrote, correspondences from other figures in her life, including

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Speaker 3: Diego Rivera and other friends and lovers of hers and

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Speaker 3: their diaries, and it just has all this sort of

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Speaker 3: like voice over photographs of her, video of her, I

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Speaker 3: guess film film footage of her, obviously her works of art,

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Speaker 3: and so that provides a little bit more context. So

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Speaker 3: I learned some more stuff from that, and uh, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I really appreciate free to call it as an artist

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Speaker 3: and historical figure. And I like the movie a lot,

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Speaker 3: but there's lots to talk about. Yes, so let's take

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Speaker 3: a quick break and then we'll come back and get

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Speaker 3: into the recap.

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Speaker 2: And we're back. We're back. Shall we get into the

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Speaker 2: flim the movie.

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Speaker 4: I just was like, I'm kind of panicking about but

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Speaker 4: you know what, I just I need Diane like to

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Speaker 4: know how I feel.

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Speaker 2: Let's leave it in. Let's leave it in.

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Speaker 3: I could bleep out the name if you wanted to.

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Speaker 4: I guess that there are four credited writers on this movie,

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Speaker 4: and I guess an uncredited scriptwrite from Edward Norton, which

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Speaker 4: I don't even know if I want to talk about.

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Speaker 4: I was like, when you learn a fact and you're like,

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Speaker 4: h I don't know if I can engage with that

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Speaker 4: fact right anyways, No.

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Speaker 3: Leave it in, Okay, We'll leave it in. Okay. So

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Speaker 3: the movie opens on Frida Callo as an older adult

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Speaker 3: near the end of her life. She's in bed which

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Speaker 3: is being loaded onto a truck. We will find out

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Speaker 3: why because this pays off later in the movie. Then

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Speaker 3: we flash back to nineteen twenty two in Mexico City.

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Speaker 3: Frida is a teenager. I think she would have been

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Speaker 3: around fifteen years old at the time renowned artist Diego

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Speaker 3: Rivera played by A one Alfred Molina.

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Speaker 4: Oh Fort Molina. I will say, I love Salamahayak so much.

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Speaker 4: It was so distracting watching her be fifteen years old.

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Speaker 5: Truly.

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Speaker 4: She was doing this like I don't know, like taking

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Speaker 4: this childlike stance. Yeah, just get a different actor. It's

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Speaker 4: just a couple scenes.

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Speaker 5: I mean, was in her thirties when she recorded a film,

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Speaker 5: So it's like, yeah, that's strich.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, very very movie like it happens all the time.

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Speaker 4: But the cut too, is severe. It was like whoa, okay, cool.

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Speaker 4: It reminded me of an episode of like Penn fifteen

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Speaker 4: kind of it was giving Penn fifteen.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Anyways, so Diego Rivera is at her school painting a

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Speaker 3: nude portrait of a woman with whom he's also having

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Speaker 3: an affair, and Frida and her friends sneak in too

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Speaker 3: watch him work. One of these friends is her boyfriend

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Speaker 3: Alejandro aka Alex.

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Speaker 2: Played by baby Diego Luna.

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Speaker 3: Oh love to see him. So, Jamie, You're lifelong crush

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Speaker 3: is in the movie, and my more recent crush, Diego

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Speaker 3: Luna is in the movie. So the boys are there.

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Speaker 5: He's Mexico's crush too. Yeah, human guy. Oh my god,

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Speaker 5: Mexico's proudest moment.

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Speaker 4: That's another there being Caitlin crush.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they're my boys. Okay, So they are together, Frida

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Speaker 3: and Alex. Then we see Frida's childhood home. We meet

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Speaker 3: her mother, her father who is a painter and photographer,

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Speaker 3: her sister Christina played by Mia Maestro, and she's about

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Speaker 3: to get married. So they're gearing up for the wedding.

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Speaker 3: One day, Frida and Alex are on a bus. This

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Speaker 3: is when she was eighteen years old, discussing politics and Marxism.

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Speaker 3: The bus crashes, leaving Frida with several serious injuries broken bones,

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Speaker 3: her pelvis was impaled by the handrail of the bus,

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Speaker 3: and she has several operations in this Really I think

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Speaker 3: cool stop motion animation sequence.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, for a time, you see like a biopic about

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Speaker 4: an artist and it doesn't even attempt to like bring

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Speaker 4: in their craft into the filmmaking.

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Speaker 2: I was so glad they did that. It looked really cool.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and it was very Julie de Marco that too, Like, yes,

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Speaker 5: the whole esthetic of that of that scene because in

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Speaker 5: a crossing universe, for example, she does similar things. And

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Speaker 5: I also love that they use the skulls the calacas

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Speaker 5: because of the relationship with Rita's idea of that, but

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Speaker 5: also Mexican typical art very cool.

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Speaker 3: So she's in recovery for a long time after the accident.

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Speaker 3: Doctors are uncertain if she'll ever walk again. One day,

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Speaker 3: Alex comes in and tells Frida that he's moving to Europe,

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Speaker 3: so they effectively break up and Frida is devastated. And

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Speaker 3: then while she's recuperating, her parents gift her painting supplies

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Speaker 3: and they install a mirror on the ceiling of her

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Speaker 3: four poster bed so that she can paint self portraits.

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Speaker 3: So she starts painting a lot, and eventually she starts

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Speaker 3: walking again, and one day she approaches Diego Rivera and

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Speaker 3: shows her paintings to him and wants his professional opinion

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Speaker 3: because she's hoping to make a career out of painting

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Speaker 3: to make money and help support her family. They have

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Speaker 3: substantial medical bills that have piled up from all of

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Speaker 3: these operations, and Diego Rivera is like, wowie wow a wooga,

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Speaker 3: you're a great painter and your work is very original

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Speaker 3: and it's terrific. And so he becomes a mentor to

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Speaker 3: her and kind of takes her under his wing. He

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Speaker 3: brings her to a party full of artists and political activists.

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Speaker 3: They're talking about you know, socialism and communism and drinking

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Speaker 3: and you know stuff that you do at a party.

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Speaker 3: One of those parties, right, Antonio Benders is there as

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Speaker 3: the Videlfarro Cicios. He and Diego are like frenemies.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I never thought i'd see the day where Alfred Blina

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Speaker 4: and Antonio bender has got into a physical altercation.

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Speaker 2: But today was that day.

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Speaker 5: By the way, a very big favor by casting Antonio

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Speaker 5: and they just let.

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Speaker 3: Me say that, oh is because is he not?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, he didn't look like that. No, no, no, all.

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Speaker 3: I mean Alfred Blina is casting of Diego Rivera like

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Speaker 3: it was.

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Speaker 5: Also a favor for yes.

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Speaker 4: The biopic treatment in the biop at least.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So we're at this party. Ashley Judd is also

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Speaker 3: there playing Tina Medotti, who was an Italian American photographer, model, actor,

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Speaker 3: political activist, she and Freda do a sexy dance and

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Speaker 3: have a little kiss together. Meanwhile, Diego is trying to

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Speaker 3: sleep with Freda. He is a known womanizer, and she's like,

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Speaker 3: I'm not gonna sleep with you, dude, and he's like, okay, fair,

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Speaker 3: We'll just be comrades, colleagues and friends, but we'll never

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Speaker 3: sleep with each other.

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Speaker 2: And that gets her horny, and then.

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Speaker 3: They immediately they immediately start making out and having sex.

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Speaker 4: I do love that Freda from the very beginning of

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Speaker 4: this movie is canonically horny, because that also seems to

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Speaker 4: be historically true.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, very horny person who had many affairs.

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Speaker 4: Truly a murderer's row list of lovers, extramarital affairs like

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Speaker 4: she had Paul.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, goals, you know, incredible, Yeah, my goals. At least,

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Speaker 3: so time passes, Freda and Diego fall in love. They

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Speaker 3: get married, though her mother disapproves of the marriage because

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Speaker 3: Diego Rivera is an atheist and a communist. Frida also

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Speaker 3: has doubts about her relationship with Diego. We see at

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Speaker 3: the wedding Diego's ex wife, Lupe Marine played by Valeria Golino,

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Speaker 3: causes a scene she insults Frieda. Frida gets upset that

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Speaker 3: Diego doesn't defend her. It's day one of them being

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Speaker 3: married and already not off to a great start.

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Speaker 2: Or at all. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Then Frida finds out that Lupe lives right above Diego's

404
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Speaker 3: apartment with the children they have together, which infuriates Frida

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Speaker 3: at first, but then she and Loupe start like hanging

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Speaker 3: out out and Lupe teaches Frida how to make her

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Speaker 3: molay recipe, and she tells Frida about Diego Afferre's various infidelities,

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Speaker 3: and this pattern of behavior does not change with Freida.

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Speaker 2: No imagine that a man that changing impossible? Yeah, wun't you?

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Speaker 3: So Frida finds out about his many affairs, often with

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Speaker 3: the models he paints portraits of. There's also a political

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Speaker 3: undercurrent to the film, as previously kind of hinted at.

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Speaker 3: But Diego has painted a socialist portrait in a government

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Speaker 3: building in Mexico City, but his party thinks he's a

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Speaker 3: trader because he's like making art for a bourgeois government.

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Speaker 3: So there's like this push and pull there.

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Speaker 4: He's making art for Edward Norton Rockefeller, which was yes,

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Speaker 4: the most interesting jump scare in this movie for me

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Speaker 4: where you're like, what.

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Speaker 2: The hell are you doing here?

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Speaker 3: I had a similar jump scare with Ashley Judd. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 3: I was like, uh yeah, what is she doing here?

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Speaker 5: I was expecting an Italian actress or something, and they

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Speaker 5: actually judge showed up right right.

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Speaker 3: Well, isn't Valeria Galino an Italian actress?

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Speaker 5: Wouldn't she is the one who plays Slooper Marino.

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, she probably would have made more sense in that

429
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 3: role anyway. So that's about to happen where Frida and

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Speaker 3: Diego go to New York for a solo exhibition of

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Speaker 3: Diego's Diego then paints a mural in the Rockefeller Building.

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Speaker 3: Edward Norton is playing like Rockefeller Junior. Frida's voiceover is

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Speaker 3: talking about the class disparity and poverty she sees in

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Speaker 3: New York. This is also highlighted in that documentary. I

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Speaker 3: was referencing the way she talks about New York, the

436
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 3: way she talks about like rich Americans especially, She's like,

437
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 3: these motherfuckers are the most boring losers I've ever met.

438
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 3: She talks about like having visited Harlem and how it

439
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 3: was such a beautiful, vibrant neighborhood that reminded her of

440
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 3: neighborhoods in Mexico City, like the way she describes New

441
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 3: York I found very funny. Anyway. Diego continues to be

442
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 3: unfaithful to Freda on this trip, but Frida is also

443
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 3: having affairs. We see her with a woman who Diego

444
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:35,919
Speaker 3: head also slept with. Then Frida reveals to Diego that

445
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:41,680
Speaker 3: she's gregnant, although he expresses concern about her body being

446
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 3: able to handle a pregnancy because of the injury she sustained,

447
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 3: and sure enough, she has a miscarriage and is rushed

448
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:55,120
Speaker 3: to the hospital. Her miscarriage inspires some of her paintings.

449
00:26:55,880 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 3: It's obviously very devastating to her also, and around this

450
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 3: time that Frieda's mother falls ill and passes away. Diego

451
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 3: is still in New York doing this Rockefeller Building painting,

452
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 3: and he has put Vladimir Lenin into the mural, and

453
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 3: some people are like woo hoo, hero, and then all

454
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,880
Speaker 3: the capitalists are like, boo, take that out of there,

455
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:28,400
Speaker 3: but Diego refuses to compromise his vision, so he's fired

456
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 3: from this commission and the painting is destroyed, which enrages Diego.

457
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:38,680
Speaker 3: They return home to Mexico, where he feels like restless

458
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,360
Speaker 3: and creatively unfulfilled, and he resents being back in Mexico

459
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 3: he was having a great time in New York. And

460
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,120
Speaker 3: it's kind of throughout the movie, but it's especially around

461
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:53,399
Speaker 3: this point where I'm like, what about Frieda's art, Like

462
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 3: we see more of that?

463
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, because he was also very resentful against her because

464
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 5: they returned Mexico because she was homesick. That was his

465
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,120
Speaker 5: idm oh so, so he's like, Nah, this is your

466
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 5: fault that we're here. Yeah, and yeah, she says something

467
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 5: along the lines of I want to return to that

468
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,399
Speaker 5: artist that you were painting, Maggie, Yes, and not being

469
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 5: a pompos guy in brockefit.

470
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 3: Corporate chill, yeah, capitalist stooge.

471
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 2: Right. I that just not as well, Kaitlyn.

472
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 4: I was curious what others thought about it, were like,

473
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 4: I feel like we see a lot of Frida's paintings,

474
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,439
Speaker 4: you know, brought to life through these stop motion animations

475
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 4: that Samahayak is very frequently in, and they're presented, but

476
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 4: like it's not fully contextualized what is motivating them? And

477
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 4: I wish that there was a little more, especially in

478
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 4: a biopic about an artist, to like have a fuller

479
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 4: idea of what was inspiring these pieces, because I loved

480
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 4: the visuals of it, but it felt like a little

481
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 4: less focused on her art than I would have liked.

482
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we'll talk more about it. But that was

483
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 3: something I definitely noticed throughout the movie.

484
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 4: But I also know that, like in her lifetime, her

485
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 4: art career was not sufficiently like Diego Rivera's art career

486
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 4: always got precedence over hers too.

487
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 2: I don't know, yeah, right, and.

488
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 5: This was a systemic issue in Mexican and art ya exactly.

489
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 3: My thing is, well, if that was like where his

490
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 3: art was always like overshadowing hers, like, shouldn't the movie

491
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 3: like call more attention to that and like address that. Yeah,

492
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 3: examine the systemic patriarchal, sexist context for that, anyway, we'll

493
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 3: talk more about it. So then Freda hires her sister, Christina,

494
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 3: who had recently left her abusive husband, to help out

495
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 3: in Diego's studio. Diego and Christina promptly have sex, which

496
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 3: is like the ultimate betrayal to Frida. She I don't

497
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 3: know if tolerated was the right word, but she put

498
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 3: up with his infidelities, but this was like the last

499
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 3: straw him sleeping with her sister, So she leaves Diego

500
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 3: and she stops talking to her sister for a while.

501
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 3: Frieda moves back into the house she grew up in.

502
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 3: She cuts off all her hair, making her the baldest

503
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 3: woman in charge. She starts dressing androgynously some of the time,

504
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 3: which is something we've seen her do already different times

505
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 3: throughout the film. It's also clear that she's having trouble

506
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 3: supporting herself. She considers selling some of her paintings, but

507
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 3: comments are made about how they don't have enough commercial

508
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 3: appeal sort of thing. Then Diego approaches Frieda asking if

509
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 3: she'll house Leon Trotsky played by Jeffrey Rush and his

510
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 3: wife Natalia, who have been granted asylum in Mexico after

511
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 3: being exiled from the Soviet Union and then from Norway.

512
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 3: I think, and Frida agrees. So Trotsky moves in and

513
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 3: he takes to Frida. Immediately, he marvels her paintings. He

514
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 3: really likes her, and they start having an affair. They

515
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 3: also visit some pyramids, yes where I also went on

516
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 3: that same trip to Mexico City, and they're stunning, but

517
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 3: I was like, wow, I recognize these places. I went

518
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 3: there and so this affair is ongoing between Frida and Trotsky.

519
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 3: Natalia finds out about it, so she and Trotsky move out,

520
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 3: which is dangerous for them, and an assassination attempt is made,

521
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 3: although Trotsky survives it this one at least.

522
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 5: Just a quick note that I found out earlier that

523
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 5: the actress who plays Natalia Trotzky's wife, and Salamahayek had

524
00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 5: worked together Indlos Milos, Mexican Away from nineteen ninety five previously.

525
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 5: Oh well, yeah, yeah, so in this film their enemies

526
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 5: of course, because she ends up hating Frida Calo for

527
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 5: sleeping with her husband, but they had previously worked together

528
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 5: in a very good Mexican film. Yeah, that's so cool.

529
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll have to check that one out. So then

530
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 3: Frida goes to Paris for an exhibition of hers.

531
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 4: And the only people she hates more than Americans are

532
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 4: French fields, which is that seems.

533
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 2: To be you know, the order of operations there.

534
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 3: And she's writing letters to Diego saying that she misses

535
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 3: him and she does want to be with him after all,

536
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 3: but the next time they see each other, he asks

537
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 3: for a divorce. Trotsky is then eventually murdered and the

538
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 3: Mexican government thinks that Diego had something to do with it,

539
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 3: and so they interrogate Frida, asking where Diego is, but

540
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 3: she won't cooperate, so she's arrested and put in jail.

541
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 3: I think is what happens here. Her sister Christina bails

542
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 3: her out and then they make up. Frida's health has

543
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 3: started to decline around this point. Some of her toes

544
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 3: are amputated after they're discovered to be gangrenous, And the

545
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 3: movie doesn't make this super clear, but I think she's

546
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:26,479
Speaker 3: had additional operations and again is suffering from chronic pain.

547
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 3: Diego comes back and wants to get married again, and

548
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 3: at first Frida's like, I don't need your pity. I

549
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 3: don't need you to save me, and he's like, I'm

550
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:39,480
Speaker 3: the one who needs saving. So they get married again,

551
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 3: and by now it's I think nineteen fifty three, she

552
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 3: finally has her first solo exhibition of her paintings in

553
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 3: her own country, something that she's been waiting for her

554
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 3: whole life. But she's too ill to leave her.

555
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 5: Bed because she had her leg amputated. Two in nineteen

556
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 5: fifty three.

557
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 3: Right, which is like somewhat clear in the movie.

558
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, because she takes the leg now.

559
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, She's like, give me my leg back.

560
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 5: Yeah.

561
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,839
Speaker 3: So Diego goes to this exhibition on her behalf. He

562
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,800
Speaker 3: gives a monologue about her work as an artist.

563
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 2: Big movie moment that also happened.

564
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 3: Happened in real life where Frida shows up. She has

565
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 3: had people carry her in in bed so that she

566
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 3: can enjoy the event, but you know, obeyed the doctor's

567
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:35,720
Speaker 3: orders of like not leaving her bed. And then shortly

568
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:41,240
Speaker 3: after this she passes away on July thirteenth, nineteen fifty four.

569
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 3: So that's the movie. Let's take another quick break and

570
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 3: then we'll come back to discuss and we're back. One

571
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 3: of the main things that I I am curious about

572
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 3: Angela is as far as what we know about Frida Carlos'

573
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:10,799
Speaker 3: life and art and political positions and all of that,

574
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 3: how does it compare to what is shown in the movie.

575
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:21,800
Speaker 3: And are there important things about Frida that were left

576
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 3: out or glossed over in this biopic.

577
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 5: I believe generally she was depicted very accurately because Almachayk

578
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 5: was very passionate about this. She even contacted Dolores Olmelo,

579
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 5: who was the last lover and the person who, aside

580
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 5: from his kids, held Diego Riveda's inheritance and Frida Carlos artwork.

581
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,320
Speaker 5: So she was a very rich woman and there was

582
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 5: a museum that recently closed in the south of Mexico

583
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 5: City that had all her collections and stuff. But Salmachayik

584
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,919
Speaker 5: contacted this woman and asked her for permission to put

585
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 5: Frida's paintings in the film, and sal Machaik, I think,

586
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 5: was very passionate about this project, so she didn't want

587
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 5: to depict Rida Calo in a way that wasn't truthful.

588
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 5: But again, it has some things that are immediately not true,

589
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 5: like the fact that all the dialogue is in English

590
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 5: and they try to include some Spanish in a sometimes

591
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 5: in a forced way, and like stereotypical Mexican way, I think.

592
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 5: But I think that the spirit of Rida Calo is

593
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 5: very well represented in the terms of her being a rebel.

594
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 5: Every time they say she cannot do something, she finds

595
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 5: a way or a loophole to do it. The horny

596
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 5: aspect that you were mentioning, no or I think what

597
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:48,840
Speaker 5: is very washed down is how violent Diego was towards

598
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 5: Frida in his relationship with her, because it's still very romantic.

599
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:57,880
Speaker 5: I understand that it's from Frida's perspective, which was very romanticized,

600
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 5: and her idea of him. Never she never realized how

601
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,279
Speaker 5: violent it was what he did to her, But it

602
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 5: could have been more critical in that way because it

603
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:10,839
Speaker 5: was terrible. He was a very very bad man, and

604
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:15,280
Speaker 5: not only towards Frida. Earlier on, I mentioned other Mexican

605
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 5: female artists from this time, including Marie Squeredo, who was

606
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 5: If we use intersectionality as a tool for this, we

607
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:25,360
Speaker 5: can see that she has a higher level of dissidence

608
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 5: and because she was a brown woman, for example, she

609
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 5: was racialist. And Marie Quero wanted to paint murals and

610
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,880
Speaker 5: she was extremely targeted, but she could only paint canvas

611
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 5: paintings because Cicos and Rivera never let women have public

612
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 5: spaces for muralism, which is very interesting because there is

613
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 5: a book called Lipse la Tlunas by Dina co Misenko,

614
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:54,399
Speaker 5: a researcher that basically discovered female muralists in Mexico who

615
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 5: did paint, but they granted them small spaces. Now instead

616
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:03,360
Speaker 5: of the big lace where the president holds his and

617
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 5: now hers because we will not have female president speeches.

618
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 5: They gave them the little building in the little part

619
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 5: of town that nobody actually saw. No, And this was

620
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:18,279
Speaker 5: because of a monopoly that these guys had, these men

621
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 5: had in muralism in Mexico. And also it has to

622
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 5: do with the rivetas incoherence with his political discourse and

623
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 5: his political beliefs, because Fridaclo was much more coherent than him.

624
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 5: She never sold out, let's say, and the Oribta was

625
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:39,760
Speaker 5: coherent only when he could be kind of dramatic about it,

626
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:44,240
Speaker 5: like with the Rockefeller thing. There he decided, no, no, no,

627
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,399
Speaker 5: I have to follow my ideology and I will never

628
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 5: back down. But then why did you go there in

629
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,359
Speaker 5: the first place if you're such a communist, right.

630
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 2: It always felt like a pr thing.

631
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:00,760
Speaker 4: From his Yeah, yeah, like deciding halfway through painting something

632
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 4: for Elon Musk, like, actually I don't like this guy.

633
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 2: You're like, well, we are.

634
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:07,879
Speaker 3: Here and he already paid you.

635
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:11,439
Speaker 5: Yeah. So he was kicked out of the Communist Party

636
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 5: from Mexico three times because of these incoherences. And Freda

637
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:21,759
Speaker 5: was much more strong in this sense too. And I

638
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,359
Speaker 5: think that all of those little nuances I mean, it's

639
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:26,279
Speaker 5: a film. It's a two hour film. You can really

640
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 5: depict them exactly, but there are little details that I

641
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 5: think would enrich this general idea we have a freedom

642
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:37,799
Speaker 5: and make her even more of an admirable character like

643
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 5: we see her when we find out all of these nuances.

644
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 4: Thank you for contextualizing that better, because I think that

645
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 4: that also speaks to Kaitlyn what you were saying a

646
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 4: little earlier about While we see a lot of her work,

647
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 4: the context of how welcome women were or were not

648
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,919
Speaker 4: into art in Mexico and the US at the time

649
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 4: isn't fully explore in a way that I feel like

650
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 4: would make sense to do in this movie.

651
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 2: And I also, I mean, I found.

652
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 4: A quote from Diego Rivera because I remember from reading

653
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 4: this book all these years ago that the abuse that

654
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 4: he subjected to her and others was horrific, And I

655
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 4: was like, one of the disappointing elements of the movie,

656
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:24,479
Speaker 4: or I think the most disappointing element of the movie

657
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 4: to me was kind of making the Hollywood choice to

658
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:32,880
Speaker 4: have the action of the movie we're following Frida's life,

659
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 4: but the most important thing we're following, according to the movie,

660
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:40,720
Speaker 4: as her relationship with Diego, which obviously that's complicated because

661
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 4: it was one of the most deeply important relationships of

662
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:47,880
Speaker 4: her life. Anyways, here's this quote I found from Rivera

663
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 4: that sort of bears this out. He said, if I

664
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 4: ever loved a woman, the more I loved her, the

665
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 4: more I wanted to hurt her. Frida was only the

666
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 4: most obvious victim of this disgusting trait.

667
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 2: So he also stated himself.

668
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 5: Like, don't do it right right.

669
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 4: Well, one of the things that I thought was interesting

670
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 4: because I went back and fact checked this because I

671
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:12,799
Speaker 4: was like, what a weird line of dialogue if this

672
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 4: was made up. But he says early in the movie

673
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:19,319
Speaker 4: essentially when he says like, if we get married, it

674
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:23,280
Speaker 4: will have to be an open marriage because I can't

675
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:28,239
Speaker 4: do anything else. And he says like, oh yeah, I

676
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 4: talked to this doctor and he said I'm like, I

677
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 4: can't do monogaby, which is like the most scumbag thing

678
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 4: he could possibly say, And it turns out that actually happened.

679
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 4: He yeah, the real if Diego Rivera talked to some

680
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 4: doctor at a party and he was like, yeah, you're

681
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 4: diagnosed as always going to cheat.

682
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:51,919
Speaker 3: Well, coming at it from a polyamorous standpoint, like, he's

683
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:55,920
Speaker 3: clearly someone who was inclined toward polyamory, and it seems

684
00:41:55,960 --> 00:42:00,919
Speaker 3: as though despite Friedo's affairs, seems like she was only

685
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 3: having those because she knew that Diego was in response

686
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 3: to Yeah, exactly. So that's what tends to happen when

687
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 3: a polyamorous person and a monogamous person get together, is

688
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:16,240
Speaker 3: that it doesn't quite work.

689
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 4: But well, I'm not trying to like make any sort

690
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:25,240
Speaker 4: of disparaging statement towards polyamory, for sure, like Diego Rivera

691
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:26,879
Speaker 4: was an abuser like that.

692
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:31,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, to be clear, being polyamorous and being an abuser

693
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:34,600
Speaker 3: and a liar and not honoring the type of relationship

694
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 3: your partner wants are two very separate things. And I

695
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 3: don't want to conflate ethical non monogamy with any kind

696
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 3: of partner abuse because there was nothing ethical about what

697
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 3: Diego Rivera was doing in his relationship.

698
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 5: Yeah, and most relationships at that time in art in

699
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 5: Mexico had that for that. That's why she's so amazing

700
00:42:56,040 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 5: because she portrayed these personal, very personal pain and suffering

701
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:05,800
Speaker 5: and process. But it was a political statement too, because

702
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 5: she understood power relations and she understood disparity in gender,

703
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 5: and she understood how hurtful a binary system was because

704
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 5: she was also, like you said, very androgenous in some

705
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 5: points of her life. And she understood these things and

706
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 5: she depicts them in her art. And this is amazing,

707
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,439
Speaker 5: at least for me, because it's a very weird thing

708
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 5: when the hegemony at the time was these male artists

709
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 5: who painted these murals that represented the official version of

710
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 5: Mexico's history, and they should be doing things that serve

711
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,919
Speaker 5: our country, not which was Vasconcelos's this course, the guy

712
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 5: that proposed muralism as our national art, and muralism is

713
00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 5: it's like derivera in an art movement, I would say,

714
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 5: like big in the terms of a big figure also

715
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,440
Speaker 5: towering over you all the time, also telling you a

716
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 5: version of how you should be, also showcasing everything that

717
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 5: is wrong with the system. And he even included freedom

718
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 5: in one of the paintings. Now it's always her painting

719
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 5: in a private space in a studio on canvas, and

720
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 5: him painting in a public space with the government and everything.

721
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 5: Creating a national basically nationalism, not creating our idea of

722
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 5: what it is to be Mexican. So It's very interesting

723
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:37,839
Speaker 5: for me to see that now the idea of what

724
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 5: it is to be Mexican has more to do with

725
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:45,360
Speaker 5: Freida than with Diego. But it isn't surprising because Flida

726
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 5: showcases a lot of experiences that unfortunately Mexican women have,

727
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:53,839
Speaker 5: and Carlos Moncivice even said that she was kind of

728
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 5: a new version of the Virgin of Galla lupetuous. So

729
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 5: she represents Mexican going both the good than bad things,

730
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:06,760
Speaker 5: better than the Rivera, who was paid to represent Mexico.

731
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 4: Right, yeah, right, right, so he was always beholden to

732
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:14,799
Speaker 4: somebody else. I'm curious what you both think about this,

733
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:19,399
Speaker 4: because going back and sort of reviewing, how I think

734
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 4: this movie is more political than I was expecting it

735
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 4: to be. Communism was more explicitly addressed than I would

736
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:29,239
Speaker 4: have expected in a mainstream.

737
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 3: Movie, especially because Hollywood is so afraid of communism historically.

738
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 4: Right, I mean whatever, It's very like one oh any

739
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:43,839
Speaker 4: kind of stuff. But I felt like the movie kind

740
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:48,279
Speaker 4: of implies that Freda comes by her political beliefs via

741
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:52,240
Speaker 4: Diego Rivera, and that rubbed me the wrong way because

742
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:54,040
Speaker 4: she joined the Communist Party.

743
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,840
Speaker 2: When she was a teenager, like she was really.

744
00:45:56,600 --> 00:46:02,320
Speaker 4: Politically active far before she was like romantically attached to Rivera.

745
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:05,400
Speaker 4: And I felt like the movie kind of suggested that

746
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 4: when she started seeing him after she had gone through

747
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:13,000
Speaker 4: this first recovery, that that was how she arrived at

748
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:15,720
Speaker 4: her political beliefs, and I just it's not true.

749
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:18,400
Speaker 3: I didn't feel that quite so much, especially because we

750
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:21,360
Speaker 3: see that scene with her on the bus with Diego

751
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 3: Luna's character, that's true, where they're talking about He's like,

752
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:27,840
Speaker 3: you always read things in the wrong order. You have

753
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:30,720
Speaker 3: to read this one guy before you read Mark.

754
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:34,160
Speaker 5: You have to read Hale before Mark. Yeah.

755
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I guess I just met like her explicit

756
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:39,240
Speaker 4: connection to the party.

757
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:43,440
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah. And also, there were twenty five hundred students

758
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 5: in the SCA, which was at the time the only

759
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:49,759
Speaker 5: high school in Mexico, and she was like one of

760
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 5: thirty five women out of those twenty five hundred students,

761
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 5: and she joined the Kachucas, which was a group that

762
00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 5: was highly political and Candro, her boyfriend, was one of

763
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:06,479
Speaker 5: the leaders for student autonomy and student movements, which will

764
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:10,279
Speaker 5: eventually have a very dark history in Mexico. So it's

765
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 5: very interesting because she was always involved that she always

766
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 5: was going to end up being a communist. No, right,

767
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 5: So it isn't related to Viego Rivera, I think, and

768
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:23,759
Speaker 5: we shouldn't attribute it to him because also, like I said,

769
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,319
Speaker 5: he's not a coherent communist at all.

770
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 4: He's really bad at being a communist.

771
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:33,319
Speaker 3: I do think the movie after that scene where she

772
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 3: is discussing like Marxism with Alex, it's almost always us

773
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:44,440
Speaker 3: seeing Diego Rivera talk about his communist ideology, and Frida

774
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:48,440
Speaker 3: we don't see discussed it that much, except for that

775
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 3: one scene where she's they've arrived in New York. She

776
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:55,280
Speaker 3: keeps calling it Gringo Landia, which is very funny. Yeah,

777
00:47:55,280 --> 00:48:00,360
Speaker 3: and she's talking about like income disparity and poverty. Aside

778
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:05,359
Speaker 3: from that, her political ideology isn't super clear, and if

779
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:07,520
Speaker 3: it comes up in the movie, it's usually in the

780
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:11,360
Speaker 3: context of what Digo Rivera is doing or what he's

781
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:12,840
Speaker 3: painting or what he's saying.

782
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:13,680
Speaker 2: Yeah.

783
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 5: Yeah. And also for that when she was buried, well

784
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:18,920
Speaker 5: not she was, she wasn't buried when it was she

785
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:21,759
Speaker 5: was cremated and the ashes are in the Akasa sut

786
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:25,000
Speaker 5: but when she was in her service, for when she died,

787
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:28,920
Speaker 5: they carried the communist flag to a Yasatats, which is

788
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 5: like the palace of fine arts in Mexico City, and

789
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:36,920
Speaker 5: in her service, the communist flag was carried with her.

790
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:41,839
Speaker 5: So she really really really believed and cared about communism.

791
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 5: And that's what I also find very interesting about how

792
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:50,800
Speaker 5: she has been made into a token for feminism. I

793
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 5: personally I am a feminist and I have been in the

794
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:58,640
Speaker 5: feminist intersectional field in Mexico for more than ten years.

795
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:02,319
Speaker 5: But I always is kind of cringed when they said, ah, yes,

796
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:05,439
Speaker 5: Frida a feminist icon, because when they do that, they

797
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 5: expect then for Freda to be super coherent with feminism.

798
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:13,239
Speaker 5: And then they find out about her relationship with Diriba

799
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 5: and they cancel her and they're like, oh no, But

800
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:19,319
Speaker 5: she allowed herself to be in that relationship and she

801
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:23,880
Speaker 5: helped a man like that exists, and it's like, you

802
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:28,840
Speaker 5: can expect her to be a communist. She understood feminist ideas,

803
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:31,920
Speaker 5: but she never called herself a feminist because that wasn't

804
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:36,839
Speaker 5: even chronologically coherent. And I have seen when I went

805
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:39,239
Speaker 5: to the States one time, at Barnes and Noble, I

806
00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 5: saw these set of cards that had like feminist icons

807
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 5: and like Ruthbetter Ginsburg, Frida Calo, Hillary Clinton.

808
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:49,400
Speaker 4: And I was like, what, right, like the people you

809
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 4: see printed on socks gentrified.

810
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:56,719
Speaker 3: Areas and you're like, oh, no, she was not.

811
00:49:56,840 --> 00:49:59,440
Speaker 5: She would die if you put her next to Heary Clinton.

812
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 5: Oh my god. Yeah, that's what the America that she

813
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 5: was referring to in her diary, right, So it's no.

814
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:09,520
Speaker 5: And I think that's very interesting how they decided to

815
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 5: pick and choose which part of her rebellion to take,

816
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 5: and they chose those feminist traits and whitewash them, of course,

817
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:21,799
Speaker 5: and this white feminism that you were mentioning, but they

818
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:24,400
Speaker 5: completely left out not in the movie I'm saying, but

819
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 5: in the in how readily is treated by the culture

820
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 5: in Mexico and the United States and other countries mainstream

821
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:35,759
Speaker 5: feminist movement, right. And I think that's interesting.

822
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:38,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's like one of the I feel like many

823
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 4: offshoots of like corporatized feminist discourse that is just like

824
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:48,839
Speaker 4: so aggravating, where it's like, oh, the idea of being

825
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 4: a feminist means that you're a woman who did something successfully, yeah,

826
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:56,759
Speaker 4: and like not even connecting it to any like you're saying,

827
00:50:57,160 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 4: like a coherent political ideology, like putting those three women

828
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 4: next to each.

829
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 2: Other, what do they politically have in common?

830
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:06,720
Speaker 3: So disparate.

831
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 2: It's really all over the place.

832
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:11,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, but I will say, like, I do appreciate that

833
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:14,080
Speaker 4: this movie does. I don't know if I'm like grading

834
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:16,759
Speaker 4: it on like a two thousand and two sliding scale

835
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 4: of like it was doing more than I expected it

836
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 4: to politically, although it does feel like politically I think

837
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:25,440
Speaker 4: it did.

838
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 2: Caitlin, I think like you're saying, make.

839
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 4: It clear that Diego's communist ideals could be showy versus productive.

840
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:37,319
Speaker 4: I don't think he's held fully to task for that,

841
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:40,960
Speaker 4: but at least it's not presented like they were both,

842
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:44,719
Speaker 4: you know, like incredible and politically flawless.

843
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:44,960
Speaker 6: Right.

844
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:50,359
Speaker 4: The other element of Freda's life that I was, well,

845
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:53,279
Speaker 4: I feel like it's complicated by a lot of the

846
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 4: production stories around this movie, which we'll get to because

847
00:51:56,120 --> 00:52:02,880
Speaker 4: Samahayak later discusses how Yeah just bullied and harassed she

848
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 4: was by Harvey Weinstein before and throughout the production of

849
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:09,359
Speaker 4: this movie. She spoke about that during the Me Too

850
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 4: movement and has more sense. So this it sucks because

851
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:17,319
Speaker 4: I feel like this particular element of the story is

852
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:18,880
Speaker 4: kind of tainted.

853
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 2: By those stories.

854
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:26,360
Speaker 4: But Freda's queerness and a willingness to not just reference

855
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:28,359
Speaker 4: it in passing, which I was kind of wondering at

856
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 4: the beginning, where there is one like affair she's had

857
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:33,880
Speaker 4: with a woman who I guess has also hooked up

858
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:38,760
Speaker 4: with Diego, and it's discussed and there's like a little

859
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:41,240
Speaker 4: handsiness under the table, and I was like, I wonder

860
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 4: if that's all the movie is gonna do in terms

861
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 4: of like referencing that she was famously bisexual or I mean,

862
00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 4: it sounds like her sexual identity was like very complicated,

863
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:54,520
Speaker 4: and you know, I doubt she would want to be

864
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:57,120
Speaker 4: put in one particular category.

865
00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:01,040
Speaker 3: That could possibly be true for her gender as well,

866
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 3: especially because I mean, sure I'm speculating here, but you know,

867
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 3: the way she would dress sometimes in men's clothes, possible

868
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:15,080
Speaker 3: that she was gender queer before that was ever an expression,

869
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 3: or perhaps she'd just like to wear men's clothes sometimes

870
00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:21,160
Speaker 3: hard to say, but she definitely didn't shy away from

871
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:27,880
Speaker 3: engaging with androgyny totally with her sexuality her queerness.

872
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:29,560
Speaker 4: Which is like why it's kind of like, I mean,

873
00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:32,319
Speaker 4: going back to like the mainstream discourse around her, It's

874
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:34,400
Speaker 4: kind of like, as I was reading through, there's been

875
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:36,960
Speaker 4: so much written about her, obviously, but sort of like

876
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 4: very modern attempts to like retroactively put her in a

877
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 4: box and claim her where It's like, first of all,

878
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:47,840
Speaker 4: you'll never know, and second of all, like that just

879
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:50,759
Speaker 4: seems antithetical to what like how she lived her life

880
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:51,280
Speaker 4: in general.

881
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:52,719
Speaker 2: Anyways, all I.

882
00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:56,840
Speaker 4: Had to say, I appreciated that they reference that this

883
00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:02,239
Speaker 4: fluidity with her sexuality existed throughout her life, and we

884
00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:07,200
Speaker 4: see a sex scene with Josephine Baker, and a complicated

885
00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:10,560
Speaker 4: part of that is that Harvey Weinstein, I guess, insisted

886
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:14,440
Speaker 4: on that because he wanted Samahayak to appear full frontal

887
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:18,279
Speaker 4: nude in the movie because he was angry throughout the

888
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:24,040
Speaker 4: production that she looked quote unquote too ugly. So that

889
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:26,400
Speaker 4: was like because at first I was like, oh, wow,

890
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:30,640
Speaker 4: it's so rare to see queer sex scenes in a

891
00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:33,120
Speaker 4: mainstream movie at all, and then you find out the

892
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:36,680
Speaker 4: reason it's there, and so there's that it's.

893
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 5: Very sad, Yeah, to find out afterwards.

894
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:43,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I'll share some of the piece that she

895
00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:46,720
Speaker 3: wrote in the New York Times.

896
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:48,320
Speaker 2: Oh Yes, her op.

897
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:54,520
Speaker 3: Ed yes entitled Harvey Weinstein is My Monster Too, because

898
00:54:54,560 --> 00:54:58,040
Speaker 3: this also informs another thing about the movie that I

899
00:54:58,080 --> 00:55:03,520
Speaker 3: want to talk about, which is representation of disability. So

900
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:08,600
Speaker 3: first I'll start by sharing a quote from this piece

901
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:12,440
Speaker 3: where she talks about her passion for this project and

902
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:15,520
Speaker 3: her love of Free to Callo. She says, quote, one

903
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:18,680
Speaker 3: of the forces that gave me the determination to pursue

904
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:22,080
Speaker 3: my career was the story of Free to Callo, who,

905
00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:25,720
Speaker 3: in the golden age of the Mexican muralists would do small,

906
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:29,600
Speaker 3: intimate paintings that everybody looked down on. She had the

907
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:34,320
Speaker 3: courage to express herself while disregarding skepticism. My greatest ambition

908
00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:36,840
Speaker 3: was to tell her story. It became my mission to

909
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:40,560
Speaker 3: portray the life of this extraordinary artist and to show

910
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:45,360
Speaker 3: my native Mexico in a way that combated stereotypes unquote.

911
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:49,439
Speaker 3: So again to showing her appreciation for the subject matter,

912
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:52,239
Speaker 3: her passion for the project. It was like one of

913
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:54,800
Speaker 3: the main things she wanted to do in her career

914
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:59,160
Speaker 3: as an actor, and so with this project she was

915
00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:03,400
Speaker 3: passionate about. She took the concept to Harvey Weinstein, who

916
00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:06,680
Speaker 3: at the time, she heard good things about as a

917
00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:10,319
Speaker 3: film producer. His name came with a level of prestige.

918
00:56:11,040 --> 00:56:14,000
Speaker 3: You know, he was known to have made excellent films.

919
00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:17,640
Speaker 3: So she went to him, approached him with the project,

920
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:23,400
Speaker 3: and he then started sexually harassing her incessantly. She kept

921
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:26,160
Speaker 3: telling him no, I won't do this, No I won't

922
00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:28,840
Speaker 3: do that. No, no, no, and him being told no

923
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:34,040
Speaker 3: enraged him and they entered a legal battle over the movie,

924
00:56:34,680 --> 00:56:38,439
Speaker 3: where he named all these stipulations that the only way

925
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:42,120
Speaker 3: that he would proceed with, you know, producing and financing

926
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:45,640
Speaker 3: the movie is if she met these kind of unrealistic

927
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:50,000
Speaker 3: criteria on a really short deadline. But she managed to deliver,

928
00:56:50,719 --> 00:56:53,920
Speaker 3: so the movie went forward into production. And then this

929
00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:58,440
Speaker 3: is where I'll start quoting from the piece, she says. Quote.

930
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:01,319
Speaker 3: Halfway through shooting, Harvey turned up on the set and

931
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 3: complained about Frieda's unibrow. He insisted that I eliminate the

932
00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:09,239
Speaker 3: limp and berated my performance. He then asked everyone in

933
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:11,719
Speaker 3: the room to step out except for me. He told

934
00:57:11,719 --> 00:57:13,640
Speaker 3: me that the only thing I had going for me

935
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:16,560
Speaker 3: was my sex appeal and that there was none of

936
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:19,040
Speaker 3: that in this movie. He told me he was going

937
00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:21,400
Speaker 3: to shut down the film because no one would want

938
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:25,040
Speaker 3: to see me in that role. It was soul crushing

939
00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:28,280
Speaker 3: because I confessed lost in the fog of a sort

940
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:31,440
Speaker 3: of Stockholm syndrome. I wanted him to see me as

941
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:35,040
Speaker 3: an artist, not only as a capable actress, but also

942
00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:39,080
Speaker 3: as somebody who could identify a compelling story and had

943
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:43,000
Speaker 3: the vision to tell in an original way, which I

944
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:46,600
Speaker 3: feel like speaks to something that so many women. And

945
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:49,160
Speaker 3: this is me speaking now, I've stopped quoting for a

946
00:57:49,160 --> 00:57:51,360
Speaker 3: moment to be clear, but you know it speaks to

947
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:55,240
Speaker 3: something that so many women and people of marginalized genders

948
00:57:55,600 --> 00:58:00,360
Speaker 3: deal with as far as imposter syndrome, and goes on

949
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:03,320
Speaker 3: to say quote I was hoping he would acknowledge me

950
00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:05,760
Speaker 3: as a producer who, on top of delivering his list

951
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:08,640
Speaker 3: of demands, shepherded the script and obtain the permits to

952
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:12,200
Speaker 3: use the paintings. I had negotiated with the Mexican government

953
00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:15,040
Speaker 3: and with whomever I had to to get locations that

954
00:58:15,080 --> 00:58:17,840
Speaker 3: had never been given to anyone in the past, including

955
00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:21,479
Speaker 3: Freda Collos houses and the mural of Collo's husband Diogoro Vera,

956
00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:25,320
Speaker 3: among others. So again, she as a producer did like

957
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:29,880
Speaker 3: all these incredible feats to get this movie made, she says,

958
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:32,600
Speaker 3: but all of this seemed to have no value. The

959
00:58:32,640 --> 00:58:35,680
Speaker 3: only thing he noticed was that I was not sexy

960
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:38,000
Speaker 3: in the movie. He made me doubt if I was

961
00:58:38,040 --> 00:58:40,840
Speaker 3: any good as an actress, but he never succeeded in

962
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:43,080
Speaker 3: making me think that the film was not worth making.

963
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:46,400
Speaker 3: He offered me one option to continue. He would let

964
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:48,120
Speaker 3: me finish the film if I agreed to do a

965
00:58:48,160 --> 00:58:52,360
Speaker 3: sex scene with another woman, and he demanded full frontal nudity.

966
00:58:53,160 --> 00:58:57,200
Speaker 3: She goes on to describe the pressure he put on

967
00:58:57,320 --> 00:59:00,840
Speaker 3: her and director Julie Taymoor to include this full frontal

968
00:59:00,920 --> 00:59:03,800
Speaker 3: nudity sex scene. They felt they had to concede.

969
00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:07,080
Speaker 4: He also, like I think, threatened to fire Julie Taymor

970
00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:11,960
Speaker 4: if Samahayak didn't comply with including this scene. Like it

971
00:59:12,080 --> 00:59:15,120
Speaker 4: just was like threats to basically sabotage this entire production.

972
00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:17,480
Speaker 4: She had spent the better part of ten years trying

973
00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:19,720
Speaker 4: to make right happen. And I mean, I feel like

974
00:59:19,720 --> 00:59:23,760
Speaker 4: you can attribute so much of how authentic this feels

975
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:29,080
Speaker 4: as opposed to other biopics to the willpower of Samahayak,

976
00:59:29,120 --> 00:59:31,600
Speaker 4: and also the fact that she, like you're saying, Caitlin

977
00:59:32,080 --> 00:59:34,480
Speaker 4: is a really talented producer.

978
00:59:34,080 --> 00:59:36,720
Speaker 2: Which I feel like is such.

979
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:42,240
Speaker 4: A double standard in Hollywood in general, where when a male.

980
00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:44,160
Speaker 2: Actor produces his own work, it's.

981
00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:49,000
Speaker 4: Really drawn attention to, but with women it's almost always minimized.

982
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:54,280
Speaker 5: And the things she got PERMASI for are truly impossible

983
00:59:54,320 --> 00:59:58,680
Speaker 5: in Mexico because Frieda and Diego are considered patrimonial artists

984
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:02,840
Speaker 5: and getting permitt for anything related to them is impossible.

985
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:07,520
Speaker 5: So what she did is truly a big fit. Yeah.

986
01:00:07,560 --> 01:00:10,600
Speaker 3: Before I read this piece, I assumed that they had

987
01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:14,320
Speaker 3: just built doubles of those sets, not realizing that they

988
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:19,120
Speaker 3: actually like shot on location and yeah, like la asuol

989
01:00:19,160 --> 01:00:22,400
Speaker 3: and stuff. Yeah, and then she describes the day that

990
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:25,600
Speaker 3: they shot that sex scene, she had a nervous breakdown.

991
01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:29,280
Speaker 3: She was throwing up, she was shaking uncontrollably because she

992
01:00:29,400 --> 01:00:34,000
Speaker 3: knew she was conceding to the will of this predator

993
01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:36,080
Speaker 3: and that's what made her feel so sick.

994
01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:36,760
Speaker 5: Yeah.

995
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:39,800
Speaker 3: He then tried to sabotage the release of the movie

996
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:43,280
Speaker 3: after it was completed. He like didn't want it to

997
01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:45,360
Speaker 3: be in theaters really, and.

998
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:49,200
Speaker 4: He sabotaged her Oscar campaign almost wholesale yep.

999
01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:52,560
Speaker 3: So, and then the piece concludes with Somemahaik talking about

1000
01:00:52,720 --> 01:00:57,560
Speaker 3: women being devalued and undervalued as artists and filmmakers and she,

1001
01:00:57,880 --> 01:01:02,880
Speaker 3: you know, longs for gender equity in Hollywood. So a

1002
01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:05,720
Speaker 3: piece worth reading if any listeners want to learn more,

1003
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:11,240
Speaker 3: but truly sickening to be reminded of all the horrors

1004
01:01:11,280 --> 01:01:13,479
Speaker 3: that Harvey Weinstein puts so many people through.

1005
01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:18,040
Speaker 5: I think it's very sad and kind of meta that

1006
01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:21,320
Speaker 5: they're making a film about free that but also about

1007
01:01:21,320 --> 01:01:26,400
Speaker 5: her abuser and this horrible person that controlled the art

1008
01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:30,400
Speaker 5: world in Mexico. And I find a lot of parallel

1009
01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:34,720
Speaker 5: lines between Harvey Weinstein's figure and the Rivera's figure in

1010
01:01:35,320 --> 01:01:37,360
Speaker 5: the making of the movie and in the story that

1011
01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:40,760
Speaker 5: they're telling. So it's so sad that it's so contradictory,

1012
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:45,720
Speaker 5: know that they're telling this story and it happens on set, yeah.

1013
01:01:45,520 --> 01:01:48,600
Speaker 4: Right, all while scaling back the abusive nature of the

1014
01:01:49,160 --> 01:01:52,920
Speaker 4: other person. Like I just wanted to add as a

1015
01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:57,160
Speaker 4: I guess like punctuation on that that. Alfred Melina also

1016
01:01:57,240 --> 01:02:02,080
Speaker 4: did interviews around this time, and also before hating Harvey Weinstein, before.

1017
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:02,400
Speaker 2: It was cool.

1018
01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:06,040
Speaker 4: He's a real one he is, Yeah, but they he

1019
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:08,720
Speaker 4: sort of expanded on how Weinstein, when he was not

1020
01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:13,800
Speaker 4: successful in getting Samahayak to creatively compromise, started talking to

1021
01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:15,960
Speaker 4: other actors to see if he could turn them against her,

1022
01:02:16,600 --> 01:02:20,520
Speaker 4: including going over like trying to basically get Alfred Malina

1023
01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:22,760
Speaker 4: on his side and being like, she's one of the

1024
01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:24,520
Speaker 4: best actors in the world, and what do I see

1025
01:02:24,560 --> 01:02:29,800
Speaker 4: on screen? Nothing but Freeda. Molina expressed disbelief. Well, that's

1026
01:02:29,800 --> 01:02:34,960
Speaker 4: the whole fucking point, isn't it. He's me like, which

1027
01:02:35,160 --> 01:02:38,920
Speaker 4: like yeah, And then sort of subsequently for the amount

1028
01:02:38,960 --> 01:02:42,480
Speaker 4: of time Weinstein had power after that was Black Belt

1029
01:02:42,720 --> 01:02:44,040
Speaker 4: by Miramax.

1030
01:02:44,760 --> 01:02:46,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I.

1031
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:49,040
Speaker 4: Mean it's just it's so I mean, it's like a

1032
01:02:49,080 --> 01:02:53,000
Speaker 4: story we're very familiar with now, but just hearing how

1033
01:02:53,640 --> 01:02:55,960
Speaker 4: how hard Salmahayak had to work to even get this

1034
01:02:56,200 --> 01:02:59,960
Speaker 4: in production because looking at the Freedom movies that almost

1035
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:04,880
Speaker 4: happened and thankfully didn't one with Jailo with Jelo, but

1036
01:03:05,080 --> 01:03:09,840
Speaker 4: also the biography by Hayden Herrera was first optioned in

1037
01:03:09,920 --> 01:03:12,760
Speaker 4: nineteen eighty eight, and they wanted to have either Meryl

1038
01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:17,680
Speaker 4: Streep or Jessica Lang played Frieda or you Madonna almost

1039
01:03:17,680 --> 01:03:21,880
Speaker 4: played Frieda with Robert de Niro starring as Diego Rivera,

1040
01:03:22,560 --> 01:03:24,640
Speaker 4: and you're like, no offense for Robert Nio, but like,

1041
01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:26,880
Speaker 4: there's a whole there's so many reasons for him not

1042
01:03:26,920 --> 01:03:28,320
Speaker 4: to play Diego Rivera.

1043
01:03:28,840 --> 01:03:29,120
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1044
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:32,440
Speaker 4: So the fact that this movie that Samahiak's production is

1045
01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:36,200
Speaker 4: the one that prevailed is amazing.

1046
01:03:36,600 --> 01:03:39,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, with a Mexican woman as a lead from Quatsa

1047
01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:43,840
Speaker 5: qual Cosbera Cruz who came up through a telenovela SI

1048
01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:46,960
Speaker 5: stem in Mexico and ended up in Hollywood. No, So

1049
01:03:47,160 --> 01:03:50,200
Speaker 5: that's also something that I found very valuable about. I

1050
01:03:50,240 --> 01:03:53,840
Speaker 5: love Salama Kayak, of course, and I think that that's

1051
01:03:53,840 --> 01:03:57,960
Speaker 5: why she's so aware of the fact that what Harvey

1052
01:03:57,960 --> 01:04:00,880
Speaker 5: Weinstein did to her, because it's very colmon here in

1053
01:04:00,920 --> 01:04:04,000
Speaker 5: Mexico in the telenovela system too. So I don't think

1054
01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:07,400
Speaker 5: unfortunately it was the first time she encountered these predators

1055
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:09,360
Speaker 5: in her job. Yeah.

1056
01:04:09,640 --> 01:04:11,840
Speaker 4: I read an interview she did in twenty twenty one

1057
01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:14,600
Speaker 4: that sort of followed up on the op ed you

1058
01:04:14,920 --> 01:04:18,600
Speaker 4: read us Passages from Caitlin, where Yeah, she basically confirms

1059
01:04:18,680 --> 01:04:22,400
Speaker 4: that she's like, I don't mean to minimize my experiences

1060
01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:25,280
Speaker 4: with Weinstein. They were very traumatic, but that had already

1061
01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:29,680
Speaker 4: happened to me so frequently that I almost like tried

1062
01:04:29,680 --> 01:04:31,600
Speaker 4: to take it in stride at the time, because it

1063
01:04:31,640 --> 01:04:33,760
Speaker 4: was just how I was conditioned to believe things were

1064
01:04:33,800 --> 01:04:37,240
Speaker 4: going to work, no matter where I was working or

1065
01:04:37,280 --> 01:04:41,920
Speaker 4: at what level, which is miserable.

1066
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:47,480
Speaker 3: Yes, indeed, I wanted to touch on the other thing that

1067
01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:52,480
Speaker 3: the piece alludes to, as far as like compromises that

1068
01:04:52,520 --> 01:04:56,880
Speaker 3: she felt she had to make in order to appease

1069
01:04:57,080 --> 01:05:00,280
Speaker 3: this monster of a person, as far as is the

1070
01:05:00,320 --> 01:05:05,640
Speaker 3: representation of disability where Frida Collo dealt with chronic pain.

1071
01:05:05,800 --> 01:05:10,480
Speaker 3: She had many surgeries throughout her life, she had a miscarriage,

1072
01:05:11,040 --> 01:05:15,680
Speaker 3: and the movie You Know examines how this inspires some

1073
01:05:15,840 --> 01:05:18,520
Speaker 3: of her artwork. But it seems like the movie attributes

1074
01:05:18,600 --> 01:05:21,520
Speaker 3: all of this to the bus accident that we see

1075
01:05:21,560 --> 01:05:23,360
Speaker 3: happening on screen, which he sent through.

1076
01:05:23,680 --> 01:05:24,560
Speaker 5: Ye right.

1077
01:05:24,880 --> 01:05:28,480
Speaker 3: The movie does not mention that she had polio as

1078
01:05:29,040 --> 01:05:31,200
Speaker 3: a child, I believe when she was six years old,

1079
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:35,680
Speaker 3: which caused leg pain and for her to have a

1080
01:05:35,720 --> 01:05:40,080
Speaker 3: limp when she walked even before the bus accident. And

1081
01:05:40,360 --> 01:05:44,040
Speaker 3: I saw criticism that the movie tends to downplay and

1082
01:05:44,080 --> 01:05:50,200
Speaker 3: erase Freda's physical disability. This could be because Freda is

1083
01:05:50,240 --> 01:05:54,720
Speaker 3: played by an able bodied actor, but I read a

1084
01:05:54,720 --> 01:05:59,080
Speaker 3: piece from a writer who is disabled named Marta Russell,

1085
01:05:59,200 --> 01:06:03,560
Speaker 3: who took issue with the disability rature, particularly the scene

1086
01:06:03,560 --> 01:06:07,680
Speaker 3: where Frida is doing that seductive dance with Ashley Judd's character.

1087
01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:12,480
Speaker 3: The movie depicts her in you know, high heels dancing.

1088
01:06:12,920 --> 01:06:16,760
Speaker 3: There's no visible limp, but the real life Frieda wore

1089
01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:20,920
Speaker 3: several layers of socks on her right shoe that was

1090
01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:24,760
Speaker 3: also like build up to compensate for her smaller limb.

1091
01:06:24,840 --> 01:06:28,040
Speaker 3: Her right leg was was it her right le? One

1092
01:06:28,040 --> 01:06:33,480
Speaker 3: of her legs was considerably smaller and weaker because of

1093
01:06:33,560 --> 01:06:36,480
Speaker 3: the polio, I believe, or maybe it was a combination

1094
01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:38,640
Speaker 3: of the polio and the bus accident.

1095
01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:42,200
Speaker 5: There was another thing, m There are historians who believe

1096
01:06:42,280 --> 01:06:46,600
Speaker 5: that the polio diagnosis was kind of invented by her

1097
01:06:46,600 --> 01:06:50,800
Speaker 5: family because it was a how do you see in

1098
01:06:50,840 --> 01:06:57,440
Speaker 5: English congenital disease. Congenital congenital disease called spina bifida spleet

1099
01:06:57,480 --> 01:07:01,240
Speaker 5: spine that her and her siblings all had, and it's

1100
01:07:01,280 --> 01:07:03,640
Speaker 5: proven she had a little brother that was born and

1101
01:07:03,720 --> 01:07:06,840
Speaker 5: died as a little baby named Guillermo, and they all

1102
01:07:06,920 --> 01:07:11,520
Speaker 5: had disability. And what is interesting is that like historians

1103
01:07:11,520 --> 01:07:15,200
Speaker 5: that have worked with Freda in their careers have discussed

1104
01:07:15,200 --> 01:07:18,320
Speaker 5: about this topic and so why would the family decide

1105
01:07:18,320 --> 01:07:21,680
Speaker 5: to say it's polio? And it also has to do

1106
01:07:21,720 --> 01:07:25,280
Speaker 5: with the fact that all the siblings had this diagnosis

1107
01:07:25,320 --> 01:07:29,800
Speaker 5: of spineappifida. And what is interesting about this is that

1108
01:07:29,840 --> 01:07:32,840
Speaker 5: they also proposed the idea that Frida didn't only have

1109
01:07:33,040 --> 01:07:36,960
Speaker 5: a miscarriage, she had two abortions. No, and many believed

1110
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:41,040
Speaker 5: that she did because she was scared of passing down

1111
01:07:41,120 --> 01:07:46,000
Speaker 5: that condition to her children. So it's that's why they

1112
01:07:46,040 --> 01:07:49,360
Speaker 5: tend to believe that there's like weird thing there that

1113
01:07:49,400 --> 01:07:53,360
Speaker 5: we don't know about with the where the family said

1114
01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:58,200
Speaker 5: something and then Frida behaved towards it. But also Frida

1115
01:07:58,360 --> 01:08:05,160
Speaker 5: had a very internalized ablest attitude against herself. They say

1116
01:08:05,240 --> 01:08:08,080
Speaker 5: that the way she dressed, even the one a skirts

1117
01:08:08,120 --> 01:08:10,760
Speaker 5: that she wore and the outfits that she were, especially

1118
01:08:10,840 --> 01:08:13,320
Speaker 5: later running her life when she encountered the biggest tissues

1119
01:08:13,400 --> 01:08:18,920
Speaker 5: and complications, they hit her disability with her legs. So

1120
01:08:19,160 --> 01:08:22,680
Speaker 5: it's very interesting to notice how everything that we know

1121
01:08:22,720 --> 01:08:27,400
Speaker 5: about her disability is kind of contradicting each other's versions

1122
01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:30,759
Speaker 5: of the facts. And I found that very interesting because

1123
01:08:30,760 --> 01:08:36,719
Speaker 5: it tells you how it's invisibilized, not like the movie does.

1124
01:08:37,160 --> 01:08:42,160
Speaker 5: And it's also something that hasn't been researched as other

1125
01:08:42,320 --> 01:08:46,639
Speaker 5: aspects of her life. And we don't know an official

1126
01:08:46,720 --> 01:08:50,040
Speaker 5: version of the facts. So why do I suddenly find

1127
01:08:50,080 --> 01:08:53,879
Speaker 5: out that all of her siblings had this same disease

1128
01:08:54,680 --> 01:08:55,760
Speaker 5: and so on and so forth.

1129
01:08:55,880 --> 01:08:59,919
Speaker 3: No, Right, So, even though we might not know exactly

1130
01:09:00,520 --> 01:09:04,960
Speaker 3: what the specifics were of her source of pain and disability,

1131
01:09:05,080 --> 01:09:08,759
Speaker 3: we do know that she did deal with chronic pain

1132
01:09:09,320 --> 01:09:14,200
Speaker 3: and again walked with a limp. And the movie more

1133
01:09:14,320 --> 01:09:18,280
Speaker 3: or less erases that it's very inconsistent. But then you

1134
01:09:18,320 --> 01:09:24,160
Speaker 3: find out why, Yeah, because apparently Harvey Weinstein insisted that

1135
01:09:24,280 --> 01:09:25,680
Speaker 3: was the case, or to be.

1136
01:09:25,720 --> 01:09:29,920
Speaker 5: Sixy Yeah, and just the fact from what I was

1137
01:09:29,920 --> 01:09:32,080
Speaker 5: saying that I forgot to say. They say that she

1138
01:09:32,120 --> 01:09:35,200
Speaker 5: couldn't walk at three years old, for example. Oh, so

1139
01:09:35,240 --> 01:09:37,920
Speaker 5: that's why they believe it second genital disease and not

1140
01:09:38,000 --> 01:09:40,080
Speaker 5: so much something she contracted later.

1141
01:09:40,400 --> 01:09:45,640
Speaker 4: I see, Yeah, it's so I'm willing to find this

1142
01:09:45,680 --> 01:09:48,240
Speaker 4: wholesale on Harvey Weinstein.

1143
01:09:48,479 --> 01:09:50,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, but maybe that's just the easiest answer.

1144
01:09:51,040 --> 01:09:53,840
Speaker 4: I do think that this also like connecting with what

1145
01:09:53,880 --> 01:09:58,720
Speaker 4: you're both saying, there is such a resistance to depicting

1146
01:09:59,439 --> 01:10:01,640
Speaker 4: and especially responsibly depicting disability.

1147
01:10:01,680 --> 01:10:02,640
Speaker 2: And then the further.

1148
01:10:02,400 --> 01:10:04,719
Speaker 4: Back you go, especially if you're doing a historical piece,

1149
01:10:05,120 --> 01:10:08,120
Speaker 4: the harder it is to sort of parse out how

1150
01:10:08,160 --> 01:10:12,120
Speaker 4: disability was spoken about or not spoken about then versus now.

1151
01:10:12,200 --> 01:10:15,960
Speaker 4: So it's like a very I mean, as disability advocates know,

1152
01:10:16,040 --> 01:10:19,960
Speaker 4: it's a very very difficult needle to thread, and it

1153
01:10:20,160 --> 01:10:23,160
Speaker 4: just seems like the only thing that is certain is that,

1154
01:10:23,400 --> 01:10:27,120
Speaker 4: because of how this production was being controlled, this was

1155
01:10:27,160 --> 01:10:31,439
Speaker 4: not a production that was going to handle the issue

1156
01:10:31,439 --> 01:10:32,720
Speaker 4: of disability responsibly.

1157
01:10:33,160 --> 01:10:38,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's very sad. It is because also Frida didn't.

1158
01:10:38,880 --> 01:10:42,120
Speaker 5: I mean, it's a whole conversation about why would disability

1159
01:10:42,400 --> 01:10:45,759
Speaker 5: make someone vulnerable on this ableist world, how it's built

1160
01:10:45,960 --> 01:10:50,400
Speaker 5: in enablest manner and everything. But Frida also didn't want

1161
01:10:50,560 --> 01:10:54,160
Speaker 5: to look vulnerable against the world. No, and that's why

1162
01:10:54,280 --> 01:10:58,799
Speaker 5: she herself didn't want to accepting her paintings, of course,

1163
01:10:59,000 --> 01:11:02,519
Speaker 5: but in her because when you see pictures of her

1164
01:11:02,800 --> 01:11:07,680
Speaker 5: in everyday life. She was performing all the time, her outfits,

1165
01:11:07,720 --> 01:11:11,720
Speaker 5: her whole esthetic, how she dressed. It was like performance art.

1166
01:11:12,520 --> 01:11:14,600
Speaker 4: It reminded me of I feel like again, just like

1167
01:11:14,680 --> 01:11:18,040
Speaker 4: how at least how my art education was, because I

1168
01:11:18,120 --> 01:11:20,160
Speaker 4: was not an art major or anything like that. But

1169
01:11:20,200 --> 01:11:23,200
Speaker 4: I feel like it's often presented in contemporary classes, like

1170
01:11:23,280 --> 01:11:25,880
Speaker 4: Cindy Sherman was the first artist to ever do that,

1171
01:11:25,960 --> 01:11:28,599
Speaker 4: And you're like, but that's so clearly what Frida is doing. Yeah,

1172
01:11:28,760 --> 01:11:31,919
Speaker 4: she's presenting herself in all these different ways and in characters,

1173
01:11:31,920 --> 01:11:33,879
Speaker 4: and like, it's just it's amazing.

1174
01:11:34,320 --> 01:11:37,479
Speaker 5: And Cindy Sherman does it in her pictures, but Villa

1175
01:11:37,520 --> 01:11:41,120
Speaker 5: Cala didn't her everyday life. No, And it's very very

1176
01:11:41,160 --> 01:11:45,560
Speaker 5: interesting because she had a whole persona that she embodied

1177
01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:48,000
Speaker 5: every time that she was out in public, or she

1178
01:11:48,080 --> 01:11:50,800
Speaker 5: was having a party in her house, or and it

1179
01:11:50,880 --> 01:11:54,919
Speaker 5: had to do with a very particular set of tools

1180
01:11:54,960 --> 01:11:58,040
Speaker 5: that she had developed because of her queerness, because of

1181
01:11:58,040 --> 01:12:01,240
Speaker 5: her disability, because of the chata just she had encountered

1182
01:12:01,240 --> 01:12:04,960
Speaker 5: throughout her life. And I think it's nowadays it's one

1183
01:12:04,960 --> 01:12:08,760
Speaker 5: of the most appropriated parts of Frida Carlo that the

1184
01:12:08,880 --> 01:12:14,040
Speaker 5: braids and the rebon in her hair and the Mexican attire,

1185
01:12:14,520 --> 01:12:17,880
Speaker 5: like stereotypically Mexican and all of that, and it's part

1186
01:12:17,960 --> 01:12:24,000
Speaker 5: of what she did to both conceal her insecurities and

1187
01:12:24,080 --> 01:12:28,000
Speaker 5: also showcase herself as whatever she wanted to do, and

1188
01:12:28,040 --> 01:12:29,719
Speaker 5: that was shown in her attire.

1189
01:12:29,800 --> 01:12:34,639
Speaker 4: I think, yeah, this movie does adequately show that Freda

1190
01:12:34,680 --> 01:12:38,519
Speaker 4: color is really cool, but never enough. It feels like

1191
01:12:38,960 --> 01:12:42,280
Speaker 4: I wanted to acknowledge something that I don't know how

1192
01:12:42,320 --> 01:12:44,599
Speaker 4: to address. I was going back in because I've seen

1193
01:12:44,640 --> 01:12:48,759
Speaker 4: it referenced over the years of casting for this movie.

1194
01:12:49,160 --> 01:12:53,080
Speaker 4: Because Alfred Molina is a white guy, he is of

1195
01:12:53,240 --> 01:12:56,960
Speaker 4: Spanish and Italian descent, and so there has been a

1196
01:12:56,960 --> 01:13:01,240
Speaker 4: fair amount of criticism around his casting. The complicating factor

1197
01:13:01,360 --> 01:13:04,000
Speaker 4: there is that Selma Jyak directly asked him to play

1198
01:13:04,000 --> 01:13:07,160
Speaker 4: the part, and like went to his play and was like,

1199
01:13:07,360 --> 01:13:10,040
Speaker 4: you're the guy, and I guess, like, you don't say

1200
01:13:10,040 --> 01:13:14,479
Speaker 4: no to Selma Jyak, And I don't know, because I

1201
01:13:14,560 --> 01:13:17,960
Speaker 4: was looking into Dico Rivera's background and he is also

1202
01:13:18,400 --> 01:13:20,799
Speaker 4: very multicultural but also very Mexican.

1203
01:13:20,920 --> 01:13:23,440
Speaker 2: So it's just yeah, I mean, it doesn't.

1204
01:13:23,160 --> 01:13:25,479
Speaker 4: Seem like if this movie was being made today that

1205
01:13:25,520 --> 01:13:30,120
Speaker 4: Alfred Molina would be the right choice for this part.

1206
01:13:30,240 --> 01:13:32,559
Speaker 4: But yeah, I just saw a lot of conversation around

1207
01:13:32,600 --> 01:13:35,719
Speaker 4: it then and now I saw a red carpet interview

1208
01:13:35,720 --> 01:13:39,760
Speaker 4: with him at the premiere of this movie, and him

1209
01:13:39,920 --> 01:13:44,519
Speaker 4: addressing the criticism and being like, there's no doubt, like

1210
01:13:44,560 --> 01:13:47,680
Speaker 4: I am of Spanish Italian descent, and there are a

1211
01:13:47,760 --> 01:13:50,720
Speaker 4: lot of people in Mexico who were upset that I

1212
01:13:50,760 --> 01:13:54,280
Speaker 4: had been cast, and I understand why, which then leads

1213
01:13:54,280 --> 01:13:55,200
Speaker 4: to the question.

1214
01:13:55,280 --> 01:13:56,519
Speaker 2: Well, then why did you do it?

1215
01:13:58,000 --> 01:14:00,280
Speaker 4: But I just wanted to acknowledge that as well, because

1216
01:14:00,280 --> 01:14:03,200
Speaker 4: it feels like something that's frequently cited in this movie,

1217
01:14:03,240 --> 01:14:08,040
Speaker 4: and also just throughout Alfred Molina's career, he's been cast.

1218
01:14:08,640 --> 01:14:10,679
Speaker 4: I mean, I think of his role in Indiana Jones

1219
01:14:10,680 --> 01:14:13,080
Speaker 4: as kind of another example of this.

1220
01:14:14,160 --> 01:14:18,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, He's definitely played characters of ethnic backgrounds that are

1221
01:14:18,560 --> 01:14:20,320
Speaker 3: certainly not his own.

1222
01:14:21,240 --> 01:14:23,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, and I'm the last person to want

1223
01:14:23,960 --> 01:14:28,000
Speaker 4: to bring down the hammer on our boy, but I

1224
01:14:28,000 --> 01:14:30,519
Speaker 4: still acknowledge that. I want to seem like I was

1225
01:14:30,600 --> 01:14:33,120
Speaker 4: not willing to engage with that discussion just because it

1226
01:14:33,160 --> 01:14:34,000
Speaker 4: was Alfred Polina.

1227
01:14:34,920 --> 01:14:38,800
Speaker 5: I relate that also to some recent criticism I have

1228
01:14:38,880 --> 01:14:43,760
Speaker 5: seen against Rida Calo herself, no, that she really portrayed

1229
01:14:43,800 --> 01:14:51,120
Speaker 5: herself as these indigenous Mexican women, especially towards her adult years.

1230
01:14:51,880 --> 01:14:56,439
Speaker 5: And lasos Fridas, of course has the European Frieda and

1231
01:14:56,520 --> 01:15:01,840
Speaker 5: the Mexican Frieda depicted there. But her dad was German, No,

1232
01:15:02,040 --> 01:15:05,040
Speaker 5: and her mom was well, her grandfather from her mom's

1233
01:15:05,040 --> 01:15:08,320
Speaker 5: side was an indigenous man, but her grandmother from her

1234
01:15:08,360 --> 01:15:12,400
Speaker 5: mom's side was a Spanish descent also, and almost all

1235
01:15:12,479 --> 01:15:19,320
Speaker 5: Mexicans we have this complex mixture of ethnicities and races

1236
01:15:19,360 --> 01:15:24,679
Speaker 5: and backgrounds. So it would be very hard to cast

1237
01:15:24,880 --> 01:15:29,839
Speaker 5: someone that is perfect for the egorrita because our history

1238
01:15:29,840 --> 01:15:33,320
Speaker 5: in Mexico comes from and I'm not saying that's something

1239
01:15:33,400 --> 01:15:36,920
Speaker 5: good that happened. It's the invasion of Mexican by the

1240
01:15:36,960 --> 01:15:41,360
Speaker 5: Spanish was basically and the creation of the Mestizo race,

1241
01:15:41,400 --> 01:15:44,679
Speaker 5: which is the mixture of indigenous and white Spanish people,

1242
01:15:44,840 --> 01:15:50,439
Speaker 5: is basically the rape of thousands of Mexican original community women.

1243
01:15:50,960 --> 01:15:55,000
Speaker 5: But this is something that Frila Calo has also been

1244
01:15:55,000 --> 01:15:59,800
Speaker 5: accused of doing, of appropriating cultures that are not her

1245
01:16:00,240 --> 01:16:02,840
Speaker 5: and stuff like that, and I think that's a very

1246
01:16:02,880 --> 01:16:06,120
Speaker 5: complex discussion. Now. The other day, I was teaching cultural

1247
01:16:06,160 --> 01:16:09,519
Speaker 5: appropriation with my students and they were like, but when

1248
01:16:09,840 --> 01:16:12,439
Speaker 5: when is it appreciation and when is it appropriation? And

1249
01:16:12,720 --> 01:16:15,400
Speaker 5: they were telling me examples, and I was like, it's

1250
01:16:15,720 --> 01:16:19,080
Speaker 5: very hard. We have to contextualize every single example to

1251
01:16:19,200 --> 01:16:23,720
Speaker 5: understand what happens there. Not because some may say I

1252
01:16:23,760 --> 01:16:29,479
Speaker 5: freely doesn't have any right to portray indigenous experiences in

1253
01:16:29,840 --> 01:16:34,120
Speaker 5: her art, but also her grandfather was from indigenous assent,

1254
01:16:34,320 --> 01:16:37,400
Speaker 5: and you know, Alfred Molina, I think has the same thing.

1255
01:16:37,560 --> 01:16:42,400
Speaker 5: He comes from a Spanish Italian background. He's not Mexican.

1256
01:16:42,600 --> 01:16:45,720
Speaker 5: Diria was. But Mexican is not a race or an ethnicity,

1257
01:16:45,760 --> 01:16:46,680
Speaker 5: it's a nationality.

1258
01:16:47,640 --> 01:16:50,519
Speaker 4: So yeah, and that was why I felt naive when

1259
01:16:50,520 --> 01:16:52,320
Speaker 4: I was looking into this, because I feel like i'd

1260
01:16:52,320 --> 01:16:54,639
Speaker 4: seen it presented like you're talking about the same way

1261
01:16:54,680 --> 01:16:56,840
Speaker 4: that I saw a lot of I feel like it

1262
01:16:56,880 --> 01:16:58,519
Speaker 4: was like ten years ago or so. There was just

1263
01:16:58,560 --> 01:17:01,160
Speaker 4: like this wave of criticism that's exactly what you're.

1264
01:17:01,000 --> 01:17:02,320
Speaker 2: Describing about free to callow.

1265
01:17:02,439 --> 01:17:05,000
Speaker 4: And then a piece that I we can link it

1266
01:17:05,040 --> 01:17:06,719
Speaker 4: in the description of this, but I read a piece

1267
01:17:06,800 --> 01:17:11,920
Speaker 4: by Tanya Nunez who wrote a whole essay basically saying

1268
01:17:11,920 --> 01:17:13,559
Speaker 4: what you just said, Angela, whereas like.

1269
01:17:14,040 --> 01:17:15,160
Speaker 2: Well it's not that simple.

1270
01:17:15,439 --> 01:17:19,280
Speaker 4: And you know, even if there were contemporary criticisms, if

1271
01:17:19,320 --> 01:17:22,840
Speaker 4: free to Callo was working today, she wasn't. Those weren't

1272
01:17:22,880 --> 01:17:26,519
Speaker 4: the conversations going on then, and during her lifetime, she

1273
01:17:26,600 --> 01:17:29,800
Speaker 4: was largely not trying to profit off of this.

1274
01:17:30,080 --> 01:17:33,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, she only sold one painting, which was the two

1275
01:17:33,160 --> 01:17:36,599
Speaker 5: Freedas for two hundred and fifty dollars ry. No, she

1276
01:17:36,640 --> 01:17:39,000
Speaker 5: only had one solo exhibition, which was the one that

1277
01:17:39,040 --> 01:17:42,160
Speaker 5: picked her in the movie. The other exhibitions were with

1278
01:17:42,200 --> 01:17:46,599
Speaker 5: other artists, so she didn't really profit. She was Diego's

1279
01:17:46,600 --> 01:17:50,080
Speaker 5: wife most of the time for the public, right, unfortunately.

1280
01:17:50,200 --> 01:17:52,880
Speaker 4: And it's like a conversation she's mostly having with herself

1281
01:17:52,960 --> 01:17:55,600
Speaker 4: throughout her life and like trying to understand her identity

1282
01:17:55,840 --> 01:17:59,360
Speaker 4: and then looking into Diego's background. Yeah, it says on

1283
01:17:59,400 --> 01:18:06,160
Speaker 4: scholarly journal Wikipedia it says Diego was of Spanish, Americandian, African, Italian, Jewish, Russian,

1284
01:18:06,200 --> 01:18:07,240
Speaker 4: and Portuguese descent.

1285
01:18:07,600 --> 01:18:10,320
Speaker 2: So it's just like, yeah, I don't know.

1286
01:18:10,479 --> 01:18:13,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's what happens with the American continent.

1287
01:18:13,520 --> 01:18:16,760
Speaker 3: No, yeah, yeah, and I think that's the I mean,

1288
01:18:16,800 --> 01:18:21,360
Speaker 3: this is something I have spent a lot of time

1289
01:18:21,400 --> 01:18:25,519
Speaker 3: and effort learning slash unlearning as far as because I

1290
01:18:25,560 --> 01:18:31,599
Speaker 3: think a lot of white Americans do view being Mexican

1291
01:18:31,760 --> 01:18:36,760
Speaker 3: as a racial identity. Yeah, and I've heard people be like, oh, no,

1292
01:18:36,840 --> 01:18:40,000
Speaker 3: he's not white, he's Mexican. It's like, well, that does

1293
01:18:40,040 --> 01:18:42,799
Speaker 3: not preclude him, Like he could still be a white Mexican.

1294
01:18:42,880 --> 01:18:45,479
Speaker 5: Yeah. I'm white as folk, and I'm Mexican because my

1295
01:18:45,560 --> 01:18:48,559
Speaker 5: daddy's from Spain and my mom's sambili is from Spain too,

1296
01:18:48,640 --> 01:18:52,439
Speaker 5: and I have a Mexican nationality. It doesn't mean anything, no.

1297
01:18:53,000 --> 01:18:55,559
Speaker 3: Right, right. So there's a lot of I think still

1298
01:18:55,560 --> 01:19:00,720
Speaker 3: to this day, misunderstanding about the difference between like the

1299
01:19:00,760 --> 01:19:06,200
Speaker 3: ethnic and national and racial background of everyone in Latin America.

1300
01:19:06,439 --> 01:19:10,320
Speaker 3: And there's so much erasure also of Afro Latin X people.

1301
01:19:10,560 --> 01:19:14,200
Speaker 3: Of course, there's so much erasure of indigenous people who

1302
01:19:14,280 --> 01:19:17,720
Speaker 3: were the original inhabitants of what would become known as

1303
01:19:17,800 --> 01:19:22,200
Speaker 3: Latin America. And it's such a fraud history with colonization

1304
01:19:22,479 --> 01:19:26,439
Speaker 3: and the Transatlantic slave trade. It has created a lot

1305
01:19:26,479 --> 01:19:31,160
Speaker 3: of confusion for a lot of people. And so it's

1306
01:19:31,320 --> 01:19:34,320
Speaker 3: something that I think we've gotten wrong on the podcast

1307
01:19:34,360 --> 01:19:35,520
Speaker 3: before and.

1308
01:19:35,360 --> 01:19:38,160
Speaker 5: For sure, and it has to do with what Riverta did.

1309
01:19:38,439 --> 01:19:41,760
Speaker 5: He created this Mexican nationalism that makes you believe that

1310
01:19:41,840 --> 01:19:45,800
Speaker 5: we are a race they said, the say the Bronze race,

1311
01:19:46,000 --> 01:19:51,320
Speaker 5: that it comes from that glorious indigenous past, from the

1312
01:19:51,360 --> 01:19:56,960
Speaker 5: Mechicas and all of these pre Hispanic civilizations that emulates

1313
01:19:57,120 --> 01:19:59,519
Speaker 5: how Europe treated the Greeks and the Romans. That's what

1314
01:19:59,600 --> 01:20:03,320
Speaker 5: Basco Clos and the muralist projected here in Mexico. But

1315
01:20:03,360 --> 01:20:08,120
Speaker 5: at the same time, governments mistreat alive indigenous people who

1316
01:20:08,160 --> 01:20:11,000
Speaker 5: are living in our world today, you know. So it's

1317
01:20:11,800 --> 01:20:14,680
Speaker 5: a it's an issue, and Dio Riverta was a very

1318
01:20:14,680 --> 01:20:19,519
Speaker 5: big participant in that. And this idea, the stereotype of

1319
01:20:19,560 --> 01:20:21,920
Speaker 5: what it is to be Mexican is also created by

1320
01:20:21,960 --> 01:20:25,240
Speaker 5: our own nationalism and how we portray ourselves to the world.

1321
01:20:25,320 --> 01:20:31,240
Speaker 3: So yeah, Tangled Web, I mean, I've spoken to Mexican

1322
01:20:31,280 --> 01:20:35,080
Speaker 3: American people who are racially white who have said I'm

1323
01:20:35,080 --> 01:20:36,720
Speaker 3: not white, I'm Mexican.

1324
01:20:37,600 --> 01:20:40,599
Speaker 5: No. And we even have a term in Mexico called

1325
01:20:41,120 --> 01:20:45,679
Speaker 5: white Secans, which are the white Mexicans that are middle

1326
01:20:45,720 --> 01:20:49,519
Speaker 5: high class people that behave like assholes to towards everyone,

1327
01:20:49,600 --> 01:20:53,559
Speaker 5: and they believe that they're superior and this systemic and

1328
01:20:53,720 --> 01:20:58,640
Speaker 5: super super rooted racism we have in Mexico and classism

1329
01:20:58,680 --> 01:21:03,240
Speaker 5: and everything, and there's the white secun label. And once

1330
01:21:03,280 --> 01:21:06,880
Speaker 5: I had a student that's me, future are white secut

1331
01:21:07,240 --> 01:21:09,559
Speaker 5: and I was like, well, yeah, I'm white and I'm Mexican.

1332
01:21:09,600 --> 01:21:12,040
Speaker 5: I hope I don't behave like a serty people white secun.

1333
01:21:12,120 --> 01:21:17,799
Speaker 3: But yeah, yeah, yeah, for people in the US especially,

1334
01:21:17,840 --> 01:21:21,519
Speaker 3: it's it is, we're just like severely under educated about it,

1335
01:21:21,600 --> 01:21:24,920
Speaker 3: Like it's embarrassing. Yeah.

1336
01:21:25,160 --> 01:21:28,320
Speaker 4: With regard to just like closing the loop on the

1337
01:21:28,320 --> 01:21:31,439
Speaker 4: Alpha Molina thing, it was tricky because it involved digging

1338
01:21:31,520 --> 01:21:34,960
Speaker 4: up two thousand and two media, which is either hard

1339
01:21:34,960 --> 01:21:37,960
Speaker 4: to find or kind of inscrutable when you read it.

1340
01:21:37,960 --> 01:21:41,920
Speaker 4: It just seemed like they're two separate strains of criticism

1341
01:21:41,960 --> 01:21:46,879
Speaker 4: going on, one being that Alpha Blina is white and

1342
01:21:47,200 --> 01:21:52,080
Speaker 4: the other just that he had no connection to Mexican culture,

1343
01:21:52,640 --> 01:21:55,679
Speaker 4: and that because Diego Rivera was such a prominent Mexican

1344
01:21:55,760 --> 01:21:59,280
Speaker 4: figure that they were like, well, why this, why do we.

1345
01:21:59,320 --> 01:22:01,040
Speaker 2: Have this British like that?

1346
01:22:01,640 --> 01:22:04,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, which is I think a fair criticism, And I

1347
01:22:04,160 --> 01:22:06,760
Speaker 4: also think he gives a great performance because it's South

1348
01:22:06,800 --> 01:22:09,200
Speaker 4: for Bolina is a star.

1349
01:22:09,400 --> 01:22:13,479
Speaker 5: He's amazing. I have something to say about this because

1350
01:22:13,720 --> 01:22:16,200
Speaker 5: there is a part of the film where they a

1351
01:22:16,760 --> 01:22:19,760
Speaker 5: trotsky and Frida paints it to Frida's there is a

1352
01:22:19,800 --> 01:22:24,200
Speaker 5: woman singing do you remember like yourna? Yes, yes, that

1353
01:22:24,320 --> 01:22:27,720
Speaker 5: woman who appears in the movie. She is created as

1354
01:22:27,800 --> 01:22:31,080
Speaker 5: Lapelona and Death. No, she plays death which we call

1355
01:22:31,160 --> 01:22:35,200
Speaker 5: lapelona sometimes. That woman is famous for singing that song.

1356
01:22:35,200 --> 01:22:38,080
Speaker 5: Her name is Celle la Varagas, and cevel la Vargas

1357
01:22:38,320 --> 01:22:43,200
Speaker 5: is from Costa Rica. But she said that famous quote

1358
01:22:43,200 --> 01:22:49,639
Speaker 5: that says los Mexicano that means Mexicans are born wherever

1359
01:22:49,680 --> 01:22:54,719
Speaker 5: they fucking want. This is because she is considered Mexican

1360
01:22:54,760 --> 01:22:57,240
Speaker 5: and an icon for Mexican culture, but she wasn't born

1361
01:22:57,240 --> 01:23:01,040
Speaker 5: in Mexico. And Chaveel la Vargas is also related to

1362
01:23:01,240 --> 01:23:05,000
Speaker 5: the queerness of in the film. This is a very

1363
01:23:05,120 --> 01:23:08,400
Speaker 5: like nice detail in my opinion, because tavel la Baga

1364
01:23:08,479 --> 01:23:10,200
Speaker 5: is that old lady that you see in the movie,

1365
01:23:10,720 --> 01:23:14,360
Speaker 5: is actually someone who had a relationship with Frida. Oh oh,

1366
01:23:14,439 --> 01:23:20,360
Speaker 5: they had a very passionate affair. And Chavelas appears in

1367
01:23:20,400 --> 01:23:27,639
Speaker 5: Frida's movie Singing too, San Maachayek portraying Frida No, and yeah, yeah,

1368
01:23:27,680 --> 01:23:32,320
Speaker 5: it's it's incredible because if you don't know this nice story,

1369
01:23:33,120 --> 01:23:36,519
Speaker 5: you wouldn't know. That's another way that they introduced free

1370
01:23:36,560 --> 01:23:39,839
Speaker 5: theat Aquaerness by bringing one of her, the actual person

1371
01:23:39,880 --> 01:23:43,879
Speaker 5: that she had an affair with, into the film. Yeah, yeah,

1372
01:23:44,080 --> 01:23:45,040
Speaker 5: so cool.

1373
01:23:45,680 --> 01:23:49,479
Speaker 4: Oh gosh, that's just like such a w to make

1374
01:23:49,520 --> 01:23:54,559
Speaker 4: a cameo in your lover's biopic, Like really good stuff.

1375
01:23:54,680 --> 01:23:56,400
Speaker 4: That's I didn't know that. That's really cool.

1376
01:23:56,640 --> 01:23:56,840
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1377
01:23:57,560 --> 01:23:59,840
Speaker 3: Well, I think an extension of the conversation of cast

1378
01:24:00,120 --> 01:24:02,880
Speaker 3: in this movie can extend to the crew as far

1379
01:24:02,920 --> 01:24:08,200
Speaker 3: as like, why did a white woman from the US

1380
01:24:08,520 --> 01:24:13,280
Speaker 3: who is not Mexican or Latina? Why was she the

1381
01:24:13,280 --> 01:24:15,439
Speaker 3: one hired to direct this movie? Right?

1382
01:24:15,520 --> 01:24:19,719
Speaker 2: Why was it a majority white writers? Including Diane Lake?

1383
01:24:20,640 --> 01:24:22,479
Speaker 2: By the way, what was she doing here?

1384
01:24:22,960 --> 01:24:27,759
Speaker 3: Sworn enemy of Jamie She's my new enemy. Yes, yes,

1385
01:24:28,400 --> 01:24:31,320
Speaker 3: I saw that and like IMDb and I read it

1386
01:24:31,400 --> 01:24:33,800
Speaker 3: really quickly, and I thought it said Diane Lane. I

1387
01:24:33,880 --> 01:24:36,760
Speaker 3: was like, oh, wow, is Diane Lane a screenwriter? But

1388
01:24:36,800 --> 01:24:38,680
Speaker 3: then it's a slightly different is it?

1389
01:24:39,200 --> 01:24:42,960
Speaker 4: Fred Callos super fan, No I wish instead it's my

1390
01:24:43,040 --> 01:24:46,280
Speaker 4: sworn enemy who gave you a C because I was

1391
01:24:46,360 --> 01:24:48,240
Speaker 4: late to class too many times.

1392
01:24:49,560 --> 01:24:50,120
Speaker 2: Grow up?

1393
01:24:50,560 --> 01:24:54,720
Speaker 3: You know what? Lateness is just a construct invented by

1394
01:24:54,800 --> 01:24:56,480
Speaker 3: capitalism exactly.

1395
01:24:56,560 --> 01:25:00,759
Speaker 4: Lateness is on timeness leaving the body. And I don't

1396
01:25:01,320 --> 01:25:05,040
Speaker 4: I don't care for this. There was one writer, one

1397
01:25:05,080 --> 01:25:07,960
Speaker 4: credited writer because also it is said that Edward Norton

1398
01:25:08,040 --> 01:25:10,240
Speaker 4: worked on the screenplay but was not credited as a

1399
01:25:10,240 --> 01:25:15,880
Speaker 4: writer for like WGA reasons. But there was one writer

1400
01:25:16,080 --> 01:25:20,200
Speaker 4: of Mexican descent who worked on the screenplay, Gregory Nava,

1401
01:25:20,720 --> 01:25:25,439
Speaker 4: who had worked on a number of movies prior. He

1402
01:25:25,520 --> 01:25:34,080
Speaker 4: also directed Selena, the Jlo Celena movie. Oh yes, anyways,

1403
01:25:34,120 --> 01:25:36,400
Speaker 4: from what we can tell. And also it's always so

1404
01:25:36,800 --> 01:25:42,519
Speaker 4: inscrutable because the ways that movie writing credits happen, who knows.

1405
01:25:42,840 --> 01:25:45,160
Speaker 4: But yes, it seems like there was only one Mexican

1406
01:25:45,200 --> 01:25:48,360
Speaker 4: writer involved in the writing of this movie, although there

1407
01:25:48,479 --> 01:25:53,880
Speaker 4: was one famous communist writer involved, which maybe is attributable

1408
01:25:53,960 --> 01:25:57,639
Speaker 4: to how political this movie did get. In the script

1409
01:25:58,200 --> 01:26:00,840
Speaker 4: where clans I recog it is his name, and I

1410
01:26:00,880 --> 01:26:05,120
Speaker 4: was like why because I went into a big blacklist

1411
01:26:05,760 --> 01:26:09,920
Speaker 4: research hole and I wonder why. But Anyways, he was

1412
01:26:09,960 --> 01:26:13,160
Speaker 4: a screenwriter who was called in and subpoenaed by the

1413
01:26:13,200 --> 01:26:17,280
Speaker 4: House Committee of on American Activity. Is he was a

1414
01:26:17,320 --> 01:26:21,920
Speaker 4: card carrier communist and it seems like just generally a

1415
01:26:21,960 --> 01:26:23,320
Speaker 4: real one from what I can tell.

1416
01:26:24,200 --> 01:26:28,080
Speaker 2: So yeah, and then Diane Link Boom, and then.

1417
01:26:27,960 --> 01:26:30,519
Speaker 4: She's she worked on it as well, and it's her

1418
01:26:30,560 --> 01:26:33,920
Speaker 4: only screenwriting credit, her other credit disrespecting me.

1419
01:26:35,720 --> 01:26:37,000
Speaker 3: I call that a discredit.

1420
01:26:37,439 --> 01:26:37,879
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1421
01:26:38,000 --> 01:26:43,400
Speaker 5: Yeah. What I was telling Kaitling during the break is

1422
01:26:43,439 --> 01:26:50,840
Speaker 5: that the DP the cinematographer uses who is Yeah, he's

1423
01:26:50,880 --> 01:26:55,120
Speaker 5: an amazing and amazing cinematographer who is Mexican. So and

1424
01:26:55,160 --> 01:26:58,000
Speaker 5: I also when I saw the credits, I really saw

1425
01:26:58,080 --> 01:27:03,360
Speaker 5: a bad lance between male and female crew, which I enjoyed.

1426
01:27:03,840 --> 01:27:07,559
Speaker 5: I don't know their backgrounds, but I don't see that

1427
01:27:07,680 --> 01:27:09,680
Speaker 5: very often, so I was happy about it.

1428
01:27:09,760 --> 01:27:10,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.

1429
01:27:11,280 --> 01:27:14,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, especially at the top. It is largely

1430
01:27:14,479 --> 01:27:18,800
Speaker 3: a woman driven movie as far as the director, half

1431
01:27:18,840 --> 01:27:22,479
Speaker 3: of the writers, Selma Hayek producing, and.

1432
01:27:22,400 --> 01:27:25,920
Speaker 4: I do feel like when women are producing their own projects,

1433
01:27:26,000 --> 01:27:29,240
Speaker 4: you tend to see more gender parody in the cruise,

1434
01:27:30,040 --> 01:27:32,640
Speaker 4: which is just another way of saying you have to

1435
01:27:32,640 --> 01:27:34,120
Speaker 4: have representation at every level.

1436
01:27:34,160 --> 01:27:35,439
Speaker 2: Of production of course.

1437
01:27:35,760 --> 01:27:39,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, we were talking about Rodriguo Prieto, I think quite

1438
01:27:39,720 --> 01:27:41,920
Speaker 4: a bit earlier this year, because he just had like

1439
01:27:42,040 --> 01:27:47,040
Speaker 4: the wildest last year where he was the cinematographer for

1440
01:27:47,080 --> 01:27:49,720
Speaker 4: both Barbie and Killers of the Flower Moon, which is

1441
01:27:49,880 --> 01:27:53,760
Speaker 4: just like the range, the range this man has. I mean,

1442
01:27:53,800 --> 01:27:58,040
Speaker 4: his resume is wild. The same year he did Frida,

1443
01:27:58,120 --> 01:28:02,800
Speaker 4: he also did eight Mile. He's got range with I mean,

1444
01:28:03,640 --> 01:28:06,160
Speaker 4: he loves to do a totally different movie.

1445
01:28:06,680 --> 01:28:11,519
Speaker 5: Yeah. He also, like I told Caitlin, I'm a swiftly

1446
01:28:11,680 --> 01:28:14,160
Speaker 5: so I love him because she he directed all of

1447
01:28:14,160 --> 01:28:17,840
Speaker 5: my favorite videos recently. Really yeah, I didn't he was

1448
01:28:17,880 --> 01:28:18,559
Speaker 5: sweet Taylor.

1449
01:28:18,760 --> 01:28:22,559
Speaker 4: Yeah, wow, oh my god, wait, so many twists in turns.

1450
01:28:23,920 --> 01:28:26,439
Speaker 4: I knew that, like because he's like Martin Scorsese and

1451
01:28:26,520 --> 01:28:29,760
Speaker 4: Julie Taymore and I think Inatu's go to guy.

1452
01:28:29,880 --> 01:28:33,400
Speaker 3: Like oh right, we were talking about it because he

1453
01:28:34,080 --> 01:28:39,360
Speaker 3: shot Wolf of wall Street in Robbie's first major role,

1454
01:28:39,680 --> 01:28:44,200
Speaker 3: and then shot her whatever ten years later as Barbie.

1455
01:28:43,800 --> 01:28:46,000
Speaker 2: As a sorry for shooting you that way and wolf

1456
01:28:46,040 --> 01:28:48,040
Speaker 2: of yeah gesture.

1457
01:28:48,960 --> 01:28:52,960
Speaker 4: Now he literally directed the Cardigan there, wow.

1458
01:28:52,920 --> 01:28:58,360
Speaker 5: Cardian Fortnight. Yeah. She also works with another Cinemata refer

1459
01:28:58,439 --> 01:29:01,519
Speaker 5: who's a woman. Yeah, I think he's her Nay, but

1460
01:29:01,800 --> 01:29:06,280
Speaker 5: she also works with Rodrio Prito, so I am very proud.

1461
01:29:06,040 --> 01:29:08,400
Speaker 2: Of them every time.

1462
01:29:08,479 --> 01:29:10,839
Speaker 4: Wow, this is a fun recur He's a fun recurring

1463
01:29:10,840 --> 01:29:13,479
Speaker 4: Bachtel cast character because every time I learned something new

1464
01:29:13,479 --> 01:29:16,160
Speaker 4: about him, it is completely unexpected and fascinating.

1465
01:29:17,080 --> 01:29:18,720
Speaker 3: And he did a great job with this movie. It

1466
01:29:18,840 --> 01:29:19,840
Speaker 3: looks so cool.

1467
01:29:19,920 --> 01:29:20,960
Speaker 2: It's beautiful.

1468
01:29:21,200 --> 01:29:24,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, it's so pretty, the colors.

1469
01:29:23,840 --> 01:29:25,960
Speaker 4: And I just love the idea of him going back

1470
01:29:25,960 --> 01:29:28,200
Speaker 4: to his hotel room at the end of the day

1471
01:29:28,280 --> 01:29:31,439
Speaker 4: of shooting on Frida and answering an email about eight

1472
01:29:31,479 --> 01:29:36,519
Speaker 4: miles like, yeah, yeah, he opened up his hotmail dot

1473
01:29:36,560 --> 01:29:41,559
Speaker 4: com two thousand and two web book or palm pilot

1474
01:29:41,640 --> 01:29:45,120
Speaker 4: or whatever the fuck you were using then, So, does.

1475
01:29:44,920 --> 01:29:49,280
Speaker 3: Anyone have anything else to discuss?

1476
01:29:49,560 --> 01:29:54,000
Speaker 5: Oh, I have my notes with Osama we say in Spanish,

1477
01:29:54,040 --> 01:29:56,839
Speaker 5: and I take notes of everything when I get excited.

1478
01:29:57,160 --> 01:29:59,200
Speaker 3: But oh, I have pages of notes.

1479
01:29:59,280 --> 01:30:00,000
Speaker 2: You're in good comfort.

1480
01:30:00,479 --> 01:30:05,599
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah. Just what I think is very nice about

1481
01:30:05,800 --> 01:30:09,120
Speaker 5: the movie is also they don't portray the art as

1482
01:30:09,200 --> 01:30:13,120
Speaker 5: much as we wanted them to do. No, as Jamie

1483
01:30:13,120 --> 01:30:16,800
Speaker 5: think was mentioning earlier on but what I like is

1484
01:30:16,840 --> 01:30:21,479
Speaker 5: that they really create these life paintings and free the

1485
01:30:22,080 --> 01:30:25,040
Speaker 5: an aesthetic at the end of her life that came

1486
01:30:25,080 --> 01:30:30,000
Speaker 5: from what we call in Mexico exbotos. Exbotos are little

1487
01:30:30,040 --> 01:30:34,080
Speaker 5: paintings made in rural Mexico, in outside of Mexico City.

1488
01:30:34,960 --> 01:30:38,840
Speaker 5: People are very Catholic, especially in those places, and when

1489
01:30:38,880 --> 01:30:42,880
Speaker 5: something happens to them, they pray for it to get better. Know,

1490
01:30:43,040 --> 01:30:44,880
Speaker 5: something bad happens, they pray for it to get better.

1491
01:30:45,200 --> 01:30:47,160
Speaker 5: So what they do is that they go to the

1492
01:30:47,200 --> 01:30:52,519
Speaker 5: town's painter, and the painter ask them what the event was,

1493
01:30:53,760 --> 01:30:57,880
Speaker 5: who are they praying to, what saint and who is

1494
01:30:57,920 --> 01:31:00,839
Speaker 5: this being dedicated to? Know, So it has a format

1495
01:31:01,240 --> 01:31:05,360
Speaker 5: and it's text an image of the event. And then

1496
01:31:05,479 --> 01:31:08,040
Speaker 5: what they do with those little paintings is that they

1497
01:31:08,160 --> 01:31:11,040
Speaker 5: hang them at the church. And after they leave the church,

1498
01:31:11,080 --> 01:31:14,160
Speaker 5: and after they have asked for help from this saint,

1499
01:31:14,520 --> 01:31:17,519
Speaker 5: they have to move on and carry on with their lives. Know.

1500
01:31:18,200 --> 01:31:22,400
Speaker 5: And Frida, I think, and this was said by Marta Samora,

1501
01:31:22,640 --> 01:31:26,000
Speaker 5: who was a biographer of Frida, how Frida took this

1502
01:31:26,120 --> 01:31:29,120
Speaker 5: idea of expotos and put it in her painting. And

1503
01:31:29,160 --> 01:31:31,719
Speaker 5: I think that's very nice because it's something very niche

1504
01:31:32,080 --> 01:31:35,120
Speaker 5: of Mexico and that most people from other countries don't know.

1505
01:31:35,520 --> 01:31:37,479
Speaker 5: But if they look at afrida color of painting and

1506
01:31:37,520 --> 01:31:39,960
Speaker 5: they look at an expoto, they will see the similarities.

1507
01:31:40,000 --> 01:31:44,080
Speaker 5: And Frida did this to survive. Basically, she wanted to

1508
01:31:44,120 --> 01:31:49,360
Speaker 5: create these paintings that looked like exbotos and she carried

1509
01:31:49,360 --> 01:31:52,639
Speaker 5: out that in her life. She painted with all her

1510
01:31:52,720 --> 01:31:56,320
Speaker 5: pain and her suffering in the canvas and this personal

1511
01:31:56,400 --> 01:31:59,920
Speaker 5: and political intersection that she was so good at the

1512
01:32:00,479 --> 01:32:02,200
Speaker 5: and she was the only one at the time that

1513
01:32:02,240 --> 01:32:06,719
Speaker 5: did it as well as that, and then she carried

1514
01:32:06,760 --> 01:32:07,599
Speaker 5: on with her life.

1515
01:32:07,840 --> 01:32:08,280
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1516
01:32:08,320 --> 01:32:11,679
Speaker 5: So it's amazing because we see her in the movie

1517
01:32:11,720 --> 01:32:15,040
Speaker 5: having fun. I mean, of course this in the civilization

1518
01:32:15,080 --> 01:32:19,040
Speaker 5: of the disability is not good, but she has fun.

1519
01:32:19,680 --> 01:32:22,400
Speaker 5: We also see her in other aspects now, her alcoholism,

1520
01:32:22,520 --> 01:32:26,639
Speaker 5: her addiction to paint bills. But Frida tried to carry

1521
01:32:26,680 --> 01:32:31,080
Speaker 5: on despite all of the things that went on. And

1522
01:32:31,160 --> 01:32:33,400
Speaker 5: I don't think it has to do with this saving

1523
01:32:33,520 --> 01:32:37,519
Speaker 5: race or trying to get rid of the idea of

1524
01:32:38,320 --> 01:32:40,680
Speaker 5: suffering and pain. But because she was a rebel at

1525
01:32:40,680 --> 01:32:41,080
Speaker 5: the end of the.

1526
01:32:41,160 --> 01:32:48,320
Speaker 3: Day, yeh, I do appreciate the movie contextualizing where some

1527
01:32:48,400 --> 01:32:52,120
Speaker 3: of her inspiration comes from and her paintings like something

1528
01:32:52,120 --> 01:32:55,000
Speaker 3: will happen and then you see it inspire one or

1529
01:32:55,040 --> 01:32:58,439
Speaker 3: several of her works of art. My main thing is like,

1530
01:32:59,160 --> 01:33:01,519
Speaker 3: I just feel like the relationship between her and Diego

1531
01:33:01,600 --> 01:33:04,400
Speaker 3: Rivera takes up too much narrative real estate.

1532
01:33:04,360 --> 01:33:07,519
Speaker 4: Which seems to be the through line with how most

1533
01:33:07,680 --> 01:33:11,120
Speaker 4: of the adaptations of her life in fiction like She's

1534
01:33:11,200 --> 01:33:15,560
Speaker 4: I feel like still too frequently presented as equally built.

1535
01:33:15,280 --> 01:33:16,879
Speaker 2: With because I feel like this movie is called.

1536
01:33:16,680 --> 01:33:19,400
Speaker 4: Frieda, but it could easily be called Frieda and Diego

1537
01:33:19,600 --> 01:33:21,120
Speaker 4: and yeah, yeah.

1538
01:33:20,800 --> 01:33:25,000
Speaker 5: Exactly right. And they wanted to be separated at the

1539
01:33:25,080 --> 01:33:27,840
Speaker 5: end of their when in their second marriage they had

1540
01:33:27,840 --> 01:33:30,680
Speaker 5: the house created by Juana Gorman in Sananjel that were

1541
01:33:30,800 --> 01:33:36,760
Speaker 5: two houses again goals, yeah, goals, And she didn't even

1542
01:33:36,800 --> 01:33:38,960
Speaker 5: live there for that long because her dad got sick

1543
01:33:39,000 --> 01:33:42,400
Speaker 5: and she went to La Casasoul and they lived separate

1544
01:33:42,520 --> 01:33:45,479
Speaker 5: lives at the end. So I don't think they wanted

1545
01:33:45,520 --> 01:33:48,439
Speaker 5: to be seen as an item, and they were seen

1546
01:33:48,479 --> 01:33:52,639
Speaker 5: as an item all throughout their relationship, so at least

1547
01:33:52,640 --> 01:33:55,280
Speaker 5: Frida as an art historian, of course I'm biased, but

1548
01:33:55,360 --> 01:33:58,000
Speaker 5: I would have liked to see her creative process a

1549
01:33:58,000 --> 01:34:03,320
Speaker 5: bit more same. Yeah, how did she know which colors

1550
01:34:03,320 --> 01:34:05,799
Speaker 5: to use? How did she decide the size of the painting?

1551
01:34:05,920 --> 01:34:07,800
Speaker 5: How did she come up with a little girl with

1552
01:34:07,880 --> 01:34:11,439
Speaker 5: the skull face, the watermelons, not all of those things?

1553
01:34:11,520 --> 01:34:15,200
Speaker 5: How did she decide to do that? I would have

1554
01:34:15,280 --> 01:34:18,559
Speaker 5: liked to see the creative process come to life instead

1555
01:34:18,600 --> 01:34:22,720
Speaker 5: of just being the end result of the painting exactly.

1556
01:34:23,080 --> 01:34:23,599
Speaker 2: I agree.

1557
01:34:23,640 --> 01:34:27,080
Speaker 4: I feel like this is something I've noticed in biopics

1558
01:34:27,160 --> 01:34:31,320
Speaker 4: about women again, specifically where it's just like there's always

1559
01:34:31,400 --> 01:34:36,719
Speaker 4: less focus on process when the story is about a woman.

1560
01:34:36,880 --> 01:34:39,719
Speaker 4: I think because I think about like biopics of the

1561
01:34:39,800 --> 01:34:43,479
Speaker 4: last couple of years, Oppenheimer immediately comes to mind, where

1562
01:34:44,080 --> 01:34:47,679
Speaker 4: there are very sort of like magical, you know, sort

1563
01:34:47,760 --> 01:34:51,719
Speaker 4: of the sequences about and then he's scienced or whatever,

1564
01:34:52,600 --> 01:34:55,720
Speaker 4: but there is also sequences where you're explained like this

1565
01:34:55,800 --> 01:34:58,479
Speaker 4: is the process, this is how he gets there.

1566
01:34:58,520 --> 01:35:00,160
Speaker 2: And I feel like even with movies about.

1567
01:35:00,080 --> 01:35:03,080
Speaker 4: Male artist, there is just inherently more of a focus

1568
01:35:03,160 --> 01:35:06,599
Speaker 4: on process. And I'm not upset that there's a focus

1569
01:35:06,640 --> 01:35:08,640
Speaker 4: on process, but that should be something that is like

1570
01:35:09,000 --> 01:35:13,080
Speaker 4: across the board available to any exceptional person exactly, like

1571
01:35:13,120 --> 01:35:14,919
Speaker 4: why would you not want to know how the sausage

1572
01:35:14,960 --> 01:35:15,200
Speaker 4: is made?

1573
01:35:15,280 --> 01:35:18,000
Speaker 5: And it's not very obvious if you don't know, for example,

1574
01:35:18,000 --> 01:35:21,120
Speaker 5: that Frida had this obsession with mirrors or with death,

1575
01:35:21,960 --> 01:35:24,640
Speaker 5: it's not very obvious. I mean it's in the film

1576
01:35:24,840 --> 01:35:27,680
Speaker 5: language now that at the beginning she starts looking at

1577
01:35:27,680 --> 01:35:30,480
Speaker 5: herself in the mirror and that's how the movie begins.

1578
01:35:31,000 --> 01:35:33,960
Speaker 5: But she truly had an obsession with looking at herself

1579
01:35:34,000 --> 01:35:36,679
Speaker 5: and with time passing because she spends so much time

1580
01:35:36,720 --> 01:35:40,720
Speaker 5: in bed with death. She wanted to die at the

1581
01:35:40,800 --> 01:35:43,360
Speaker 5: end of her life so bad, and when she did,

1582
01:35:43,439 --> 01:35:47,040
Speaker 5: she was very happy. Her last drawing said that, No,

1583
01:35:47,680 --> 01:35:51,880
Speaker 5: so everything that I think I would have liked to see,

1584
01:35:52,479 --> 01:35:55,960
Speaker 5: how do you become Frida Calo as an artist? Because

1585
01:35:56,160 --> 01:35:59,759
Speaker 5: as a person, I think it's clear some things missing,

1586
01:36:00,080 --> 01:36:03,760
Speaker 5: like with this ghost. But as an artist, how did

1587
01:36:03,800 --> 01:36:08,839
Speaker 5: she find that particular esthetic that is so divisive because

1588
01:36:09,280 --> 01:36:12,240
Speaker 5: people either love her or hate her, but it causes

1589
01:36:12,720 --> 01:36:15,519
Speaker 5: an impact, And how did she find that? I would

1590
01:36:15,560 --> 01:36:17,280
Speaker 5: have loved to see that in the movie.

1591
01:36:17,680 --> 01:36:22,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I agree. I also in the like mainstream feminist.

1592
01:36:22,800 --> 01:36:26,679
Speaker 2: Capitalistic way. I literally it was really annoying.

1593
01:36:26,720 --> 01:36:29,880
Speaker 4: I saw like a modern defection of free to call it,

1594
01:36:29,920 --> 01:36:33,080
Speaker 4: where it's like free to caller, queen of the selfie.

1595
01:36:32,600 --> 01:36:36,680
Speaker 2: And you're like, no, we're like it's.

1596
01:36:36,120 --> 01:36:40,160
Speaker 4: Like patronizing, right, Like we're I don't know. All of

1597
01:36:40,160 --> 01:36:43,120
Speaker 4: her work is like you have to be having three

1598
01:36:43,280 --> 01:36:46,120
Speaker 4: or four conversations that wants to really talk about it

1599
01:36:46,479 --> 01:36:49,200
Speaker 4: and seeing people sort of cherry pick the part of

1600
01:36:49,240 --> 01:36:52,200
Speaker 4: her work that they resonate with and then ignoring the

1601
01:36:52,200 --> 01:36:56,519
Speaker 4: political aspect, ignoring the identity aspect, because so much of

1602
01:36:56,600 --> 01:37:00,479
Speaker 4: Freda's work was connected to her connections to my Mexico

1603
01:37:00,640 --> 01:37:05,160
Speaker 4: and like understanding what her identity was across time, and

1604
01:37:05,360 --> 01:37:06,960
Speaker 4: like it's just irritating.

1605
01:37:07,160 --> 01:37:10,760
Speaker 5: Only Frida could have done that, like putting such universal

1606
01:37:10,800 --> 01:37:15,200
Speaker 5: feelings like pain, the fear of abandonment, the fear of

1607
01:37:15,280 --> 01:37:18,880
Speaker 5: a miscarriage, all of those things she had depicted, but

1608
01:37:19,520 --> 01:37:22,760
Speaker 5: intersecting it with politics. She was a genius for that.

1609
01:37:23,160 --> 01:37:25,160
Speaker 4: Yes, it's awesome, and I mean the fact that so

1610
01:37:25,200 --> 01:37:28,759
Speaker 4: many people can miss it maybe is just like speaks

1611
01:37:28,800 --> 01:37:31,200
Speaker 4: to how complicated the work is. But it's also like,

1612
01:37:31,439 --> 01:37:33,040
Speaker 4: just read a little bit.

1613
01:37:34,120 --> 01:37:36,200
Speaker 3: I want to share a quote from her. I think

1614
01:37:36,240 --> 01:37:39,800
Speaker 3: this is something she said later in her life, but

1615
01:37:40,040 --> 01:37:42,160
Speaker 3: just kind of tying it back to the things that

1616
01:37:42,240 --> 01:37:49,280
Speaker 3: inspired her art, and the movie skimming over her political ideology,

1617
01:37:49,320 --> 01:37:52,680
Speaker 3: not ignoring it or erasing it, but like again, focusing

1618
01:37:52,960 --> 01:37:59,120
Speaker 3: way more on Diego Rivera's politics than Frida's. But she said, quote,

1619
01:37:59,800 --> 01:38:03,400
Speaker 3: I have a great restlessness about my paintings, mainly because

1620
01:38:03,479 --> 01:38:07,360
Speaker 3: I want to make it useful to the revolutionary communist movement.

1621
01:38:07,760 --> 01:38:10,920
Speaker 3: Until now I have managed simply an honest expression of

1622
01:38:10,960 --> 01:38:14,200
Speaker 3: my own self. I must struggle with all my strength

1623
01:38:14,280 --> 01:38:17,640
Speaker 3: to ensure that the little positive my health allows me

1624
01:38:17,760 --> 01:38:22,400
Speaker 3: to do also benefits the revolution, the only real reason

1625
01:38:22,479 --> 01:38:26,559
Speaker 3: to live unquote obviously translated from Spanish. So she was like,

1626
01:38:27,120 --> 01:38:33,000
Speaker 3: my work means nothing unless I'm moving the communist movement forward,

1627
01:38:33,200 --> 01:38:36,640
Speaker 3: is how she felt. I think later in life, and

1628
01:38:36,720 --> 01:38:39,640
Speaker 3: maybe also earlier, but yeah, yeah, I feel like I'm like,

1629
01:38:39,680 --> 01:38:41,400
Speaker 3: can we get a little more sense of that in

1630
01:38:41,439 --> 01:38:42,400
Speaker 3: the movie, please.

1631
01:38:43,560 --> 01:38:45,400
Speaker 4: I think the last thing I had that I just

1632
01:38:45,439 --> 01:38:48,479
Speaker 4: wanted to say, like I was glad was reflected in

1633
01:38:48,520 --> 01:38:54,080
Speaker 4: the movie was that even though the movie, as we've

1634
01:38:54,280 --> 01:38:57,720
Speaker 4: all said, is sort of unduly focused on Diego as well,

1635
01:38:58,120 --> 01:39:01,639
Speaker 4: I did like that we see that friendship between Frida

1636
01:39:01,680 --> 01:39:06,000
Speaker 4: and Lupe develop and that you get real moments, because

1637
01:39:06,000 --> 01:39:08,200
Speaker 4: I feel like, again I was like a little bit

1638
01:39:08,320 --> 01:39:11,840
Speaker 4: like oh no, Weinstein production when Lupe makes the scene

1639
01:39:11,840 --> 01:39:14,280
Speaker 4: at their wedding and You're just like, okay, is she

1640
01:39:14,439 --> 01:39:17,200
Speaker 4: just gonna be presented as irrational?

1641
01:39:17,520 --> 01:39:19,040
Speaker 2: And but I thought that the.

1642
01:39:18,960 --> 01:39:22,240
Speaker 4: Way that played out for you know, big Hollywood movie

1643
01:39:22,360 --> 01:39:25,400
Speaker 4: was more nuanced and thoughtful than I thought it would be,

1644
01:39:25,479 --> 01:39:28,360
Speaker 4: and seems to be at least the friendship is like

1645
01:39:28,439 --> 01:39:33,920
Speaker 4: reflective of their actual experience. And then a relationship I

1646
01:39:33,960 --> 01:39:38,000
Speaker 4: wish I had seen more of was between Frieda and Christina,

1647
01:39:38,160 --> 01:39:40,880
Speaker 4: because it seems like her relationship with Christina was very

1648
01:39:41,360 --> 01:39:45,479
Speaker 4: dominant in her life, and it is true that Diego

1649
01:39:45,520 --> 01:39:48,360
Speaker 4: had an affair with her sister. But again, I feel

1650
01:39:48,360 --> 01:39:50,759
Speaker 4: like the movie defers to how does Freeda feel about

1651
01:39:50,760 --> 01:39:55,120
Speaker 4: that in relation to Diego and doesn't really like it

1652
01:39:55,120 --> 01:39:58,040
Speaker 4: seems like most of the progress in the relationship with

1653
01:39:58,080 --> 01:40:01,840
Speaker 4: her and her sister takes place offic screen, which I

1654
01:40:01,840 --> 01:40:03,840
Speaker 4: don't know, I'm nipicking at this point, but it would

1655
01:40:03,880 --> 01:40:07,000
Speaker 4: have been nice to see the relationships that we know

1656
01:40:07,120 --> 01:40:10,960
Speaker 4: were very significant to free to, you know, proportionally reflected

1657
01:40:11,040 --> 01:40:13,599
Speaker 4: in the movie instead of just going back to Diego

1658
01:40:13,640 --> 01:40:14,080
Speaker 4: all the time.

1659
01:40:14,240 --> 01:40:18,040
Speaker 5: Heard that too, Yes, because she learned how to position

1660
01:40:18,160 --> 01:40:21,840
Speaker 5: people in a painting from her dad being a photographer,

1661
01:40:21,880 --> 01:40:24,800
Speaker 5: and her dad was a very successful photographer during the Porfiliato,

1662
01:40:24,800 --> 01:40:28,320
Speaker 5: which was a dictatorship regime we had before the Mexican

1663
01:40:28,360 --> 01:40:32,919
Speaker 5: Revolution and after her dad had a lot of problems

1664
01:40:32,960 --> 01:40:36,679
Speaker 5: because of the revolution, and the Mexican Revolution was based

1665
01:40:36,720 --> 01:40:39,639
Speaker 5: on the freedom at least one part, on the freedom

1666
01:40:39,680 --> 01:40:43,400
Speaker 5: of indigenous people and their land being returned to them,

1667
01:40:43,520 --> 01:40:46,000
Speaker 5: and well that was happening. The gorilla was in Paris

1668
01:40:46,080 --> 01:40:51,600
Speaker 5: learning how to paint. So it's so, it's how I

1669
01:40:51,600 --> 01:40:56,000
Speaker 5: would have also liked to see the context because Mexico

1670
01:40:56,040 --> 01:41:01,200
Speaker 5: at that time was chaotics, like very chaotic. We had

1671
01:41:01,280 --> 01:41:04,120
Speaker 5: just gone through a civil war, and I would have

1672
01:41:04,200 --> 01:41:07,719
Speaker 5: liked to see how that context affected freedom. Her family,

1673
01:41:08,479 --> 01:41:14,200
Speaker 5: being a bourgeois, very high class European who profited from

1674
01:41:14,200 --> 01:41:18,040
Speaker 5: the regime before the revolution, what that did to her life,

1675
01:41:18,479 --> 01:41:21,920
Speaker 5: and why that radicalizes her into communism too, So I

1676
01:41:21,960 --> 01:41:23,080
Speaker 5: would have liked to see that.

1677
01:41:23,280 --> 01:41:26,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, she you know, would frequently kind of fudge the

1678
01:41:26,880 --> 01:41:29,080
Speaker 4: year she was born to line up with the year

1679
01:41:29,120 --> 01:41:32,559
Speaker 4: that the revolution started nineteen ten. Yeah, like connect her

1680
01:41:33,120 --> 01:41:37,600
Speaker 4: identity to like I am a born revolutionary.

1681
01:41:37,400 --> 01:41:40,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that she would kind of erase her background

1682
01:41:41,000 --> 01:41:44,600
Speaker 3: coming from a like well to do family.

1683
01:41:44,600 --> 01:41:47,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, which Diego Rivera was also from a pretty yeah

1684
01:41:47,880 --> 01:41:48,960
Speaker 4: wealthy family as well.

1685
01:41:49,360 --> 01:41:51,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's why he could study art no and not.

1686
01:41:52,720 --> 01:41:55,000
Speaker 2: Right fuck after France for a couple of years.

1687
01:41:55,080 --> 01:41:57,679
Speaker 5: Yeah, and didn't become a soldier is one of the

1688
01:41:57,680 --> 01:41:58,839
Speaker 5: factions of the revolution.

1689
01:41:58,960 --> 01:42:04,080
Speaker 3: Yeahm hmmm. All this to say, I feel like Frida's

1690
01:42:04,160 --> 01:42:08,920
Speaker 3: life deserves a whole series rather than just a two

1691
01:42:08,960 --> 01:42:12,800
Speaker 3: hour film. So if we ever see any more like

1692
01:42:12,880 --> 01:42:17,519
Speaker 3: kind of biographical stories about her on the screen, it

1693
01:42:17,560 --> 01:42:21,320
Speaker 3: should be a long TV series because there's just so

1694
01:42:21,439 --> 01:42:27,240
Speaker 3: much well speaking to her relationships with the women in

1695
01:42:27,280 --> 01:42:30,680
Speaker 3: her life that the movie kind of touches on but

1696
01:42:30,920 --> 01:42:37,599
Speaker 3: could have examined more the Bechdel test. The movie does pass,

1697
01:42:37,880 --> 01:42:38,400
Speaker 3: I mean.

1698
01:42:38,520 --> 01:42:40,720
Speaker 4: Not as much as you would like it too for

1699
01:42:40,800 --> 01:42:43,920
Speaker 4: a biopic about women that had a lot of women

1700
01:42:44,080 --> 01:42:46,439
Speaker 4: who were important in her life.

1701
01:42:46,479 --> 01:42:48,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it does.

1702
01:42:48,760 --> 01:42:52,439
Speaker 3: But then she does talk to Alfred Molina a lot

1703
01:42:52,479 --> 01:42:55,200
Speaker 3: and to the Bye Laws of the Bechdel cast.

1704
01:42:55,400 --> 01:42:56,519
Speaker 2: I forgot my own role.

1705
01:42:56,720 --> 01:43:01,479
Speaker 3: You know, people of marginalized genders. Speaking to Alred Molina

1706
01:43:01,640 --> 01:43:03,960
Speaker 3: about Alfred Bina is an automatic.

1707
01:43:04,320 --> 01:43:05,000
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1708
01:43:05,560 --> 01:43:08,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, so in that way, it's actually kind of unprecedented.

1709
01:43:08,960 --> 01:43:13,080
Speaker 5: You have converted me to Alfred Morina fans.

1710
01:43:13,439 --> 01:43:17,160
Speaker 4: Yes, well, you you've joined an elite group because Alfred

1711
01:43:17,160 --> 01:43:18,760
Speaker 4: Molina is a past guest.

1712
01:43:18,560 --> 01:43:22,320
Speaker 2: Of this show. Yeah. Oh my. We still don't know

1713
01:43:22,320 --> 01:43:23,320
Speaker 2: how we pulled it off.

1714
01:43:23,360 --> 01:43:26,440
Speaker 3: We don't have to know, but we talked about Aaron Brockovich.

1715
01:43:26,800 --> 01:43:28,400
Speaker 5: Oh I love that movie.

1716
01:43:28,760 --> 01:43:37,680
Speaker 4: He's wow, that's amazing. You're amazing, King, He's amazing. I

1717
01:43:37,720 --> 01:43:42,760
Speaker 4: love to praise this man on our phone show. But yes,

1718
01:43:42,800 --> 01:43:44,920
Speaker 4: it does pass the actual test, but I do feel

1719
01:43:44,960 --> 01:43:46,439
Speaker 4: like I wish.

1720
01:43:46,240 --> 01:43:49,320
Speaker 2: It did more more. Yeah.

1721
01:43:49,520 --> 01:43:54,040
Speaker 3: As far as our metric, the Nipple scale scale, where

1722
01:43:54,080 --> 01:43:57,800
Speaker 3: we rate the movie zero to five nipples based on

1723
01:43:58,000 --> 01:44:02,400
Speaker 3: examining it through an intersectional Felm and this lens, I'm

1724
01:44:02,600 --> 01:44:05,960
Speaker 3: inclined to give it maybe like a three point five.

1725
01:44:07,280 --> 01:44:10,759
Speaker 3: I do wish that, you know, for a movie called

1726
01:44:11,120 --> 01:44:16,280
Speaker 3: freeda that is allegedly about her life, and the main

1727
01:44:16,320 --> 01:44:18,640
Speaker 3: thing we know about her life is that she was

1728
01:44:18,680 --> 01:44:21,880
Speaker 3: an artist, like you know, as a public figure. If

1729
01:44:21,920 --> 01:44:24,599
Speaker 3: someone's like, who's Free to Callo, You're like, oh, an

1730
01:44:24,680 --> 01:44:28,040
Speaker 3: artist And for us to not see as much as

1731
01:44:28,080 --> 01:44:31,360
Speaker 3: you would think we would about her artistic process, more

1732
01:44:31,360 --> 01:44:34,920
Speaker 3: about her inspirations, so much narrative real estate going to

1733
01:44:35,000 --> 01:44:37,960
Speaker 3: her relationship with Diego Rivera, And yes, that was an

1734
01:44:38,000 --> 01:44:41,120
Speaker 3: important relationship in her life. But I feel like we

1735
01:44:41,240 --> 01:44:44,720
Speaker 3: end up learning more about Diego Rivera than we do

1736
01:44:44,840 --> 01:44:49,879
Speaker 3: about Free to Callo and her backstory and her political

1737
01:44:49,920 --> 01:44:54,240
Speaker 3: ideologies and her identity and all this stuff. So wish

1738
01:44:54,520 --> 01:44:57,679
Speaker 3: the movie had focused a bit more on Freeda.

1739
01:44:58,680 --> 01:45:00,599
Speaker 2: Doesn't feel like too much to ask.

1740
01:45:01,080 --> 01:45:04,519
Speaker 3: It doesn't, but I do. I do appreciate that. Again,

1741
01:45:04,600 --> 01:45:08,280
Speaker 3: for a movie from two thousand and two, which was, like,

1742
01:45:08,280 --> 01:45:11,680
Speaker 3: you know, a Hollywood produced movie, I assumed that so

1743
01:45:11,840 --> 01:45:18,720
Speaker 3: much of her, especially her queerness and her communist ideology,

1744
01:45:19,160 --> 01:45:23,080
Speaker 3: would have been erased or really really downplayed, maybe only

1745
01:45:23,120 --> 01:45:26,280
Speaker 3: mentioned in passing but never shown on screen. But like,

1746
01:45:26,560 --> 01:45:31,360
Speaker 3: you have three different romantic or sexual moments between her

1747
01:45:31,560 --> 01:45:34,799
Speaker 3: and another woman in the movie. One of them carries

1748
01:45:34,840 --> 01:45:37,840
Speaker 3: a lot of baggage because it was basically forced to

1749
01:45:37,920 --> 01:45:41,360
Speaker 3: exist by Harvey Weinstein, but the benefit of it is

1750
01:45:41,400 --> 01:45:46,040
Speaker 3: that you do see this like steamy, perhaps exploitative, but

1751
01:45:47,000 --> 01:45:47,439
Speaker 3: I know it.

1752
01:45:47,439 --> 01:45:50,519
Speaker 4: It's like knowing that Salma Hayek felt ill the day

1753
01:45:50,560 --> 01:45:51,240
Speaker 4: that has happened.

1754
01:45:51,560 --> 01:45:52,120
Speaker 2: I just it.

1755
01:45:52,760 --> 01:45:57,280
Speaker 4: I Ugh, Yeah, Harvey Weinstein can't suffer enough.

1756
01:45:57,120 --> 01:45:58,200
Speaker 2: As far as I'm concerned.

1757
01:45:58,280 --> 01:46:01,519
Speaker 3: No rot in hell, but the fact that there is,

1758
01:46:01,640 --> 01:46:03,800
Speaker 3: because in two thousand and two it was very hard

1759
01:46:03,880 --> 01:46:07,639
Speaker 3: to find even if there were queer characters, we wouldn't

1760
01:46:07,720 --> 01:46:12,920
Speaker 3: see any type of like kissing between two women or

1761
01:46:13,000 --> 01:46:16,240
Speaker 3: kissing betraying men or anything like that. It is a

1762
01:46:16,320 --> 01:46:17,479
Speaker 3: relief to see that.

1763
01:46:17,640 --> 01:46:17,920
Speaker 2: I mean.

1764
01:46:17,960 --> 01:46:20,920
Speaker 4: And also with Josephine Baker, which I didn't know. I

1765
01:46:21,000 --> 01:46:23,120
Speaker 4: was like, she also had an affair with Georgia O'Keefe,

1766
01:46:23,120 --> 01:46:24,519
Speaker 4: but I guess that they were like, we've hit the

1767
01:46:24,600 --> 01:46:27,840
Speaker 4: upper limit of affairs we can show in this movie.

1768
01:46:27,920 --> 01:46:30,719
Speaker 4: But I was like, if they gave Trotsky a steamy

1769
01:46:30,840 --> 01:46:33,360
Speaker 4: kiss and we don't see a queer love scene, I'm

1770
01:46:33,400 --> 01:46:37,160
Speaker 4: gonna I'm gonna like explore not that, but like, just

1771
01:46:37,840 --> 01:46:41,240
Speaker 4: it was very weird seeing Trotsky in a horny count Yeah.

1772
01:46:41,400 --> 01:46:44,960
Speaker 5: I hated so hard, so weird.

1773
01:46:45,160 --> 01:46:46,760
Speaker 2: Jeffrey Rush get away from her.

1774
01:46:47,439 --> 01:46:52,800
Speaker 4: I don't want to see that ever, Horny Trotsky, No,

1775
01:46:53,000 --> 01:46:54,639
Speaker 4: thank you whatever, good for them.

1776
01:46:54,720 --> 01:46:56,479
Speaker 2: I'm happy for them, but I don't want to I

1777
01:46:56,479 --> 01:46:57,400
Speaker 2: don't want to look at.

1778
01:46:57,320 --> 01:47:01,080
Speaker 3: It nor anyway of the day. I mean, this is

1779
01:47:01,080 --> 01:47:07,280
Speaker 3: a movie about a queer, disabled communist Latina artist, and

1780
01:47:07,439 --> 01:47:11,040
Speaker 3: the movie is like, yes, that's all here. We're used

1781
01:47:11,040 --> 01:47:13,639
Speaker 3: to crumbs and this movie gives you more than crumbs.

1782
01:47:13,880 --> 01:47:17,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, and the movie is not criticizing her for because

1783
01:47:17,200 --> 01:47:21,080
Speaker 4: I feel like often when we see marginalized characters, it's like,

1784
01:47:21,800 --> 01:47:24,519
Speaker 4: I don't know, it's just led to their downfall or

1785
01:47:24,520 --> 01:47:27,639
Speaker 4: whatever exactly, or like the movie is encouraging you to

1786
01:47:27,680 --> 01:47:28,639
Speaker 4: not be on their side.

1787
01:47:29,040 --> 01:47:32,559
Speaker 5: And what led to her downfall we know by what

1788
01:47:32,600 --> 01:47:35,360
Speaker 5: the movie says is in big part a man, which

1789
01:47:35,439 --> 01:47:36,719
Speaker 5: I think is very accurate.

1790
01:47:37,280 --> 01:47:41,439
Speaker 2: So true, that certainly seems that way.

1791
01:47:41,640 --> 01:47:44,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, and they also portrayed the alcoholism part, which I

1792
01:47:44,640 --> 01:47:46,760
Speaker 5: think is very important. They don't say that a lot

1793
01:47:46,800 --> 01:47:50,639
Speaker 5: about free them. She was an alcoholic, so it's important

1794
01:47:50,680 --> 01:47:53,880
Speaker 5: to talk about it. So yeah, I think it portrays

1795
01:47:54,400 --> 01:47:57,360
Speaker 5: the nuances of her life very well, but I think

1796
01:47:57,400 --> 01:48:01,800
Speaker 5: it could do it more. Of course, what I am satisfied,

1797
01:48:02,160 --> 01:48:05,840
Speaker 5: I think it's I watched it as a little girl,

1798
01:48:05,880 --> 01:48:09,800
Speaker 5: I shouldn't have. I got scarred for life by seeing

1799
01:48:09,800 --> 01:48:13,680
Speaker 5: Freda's sister betray her in that way. But now as

1800
01:48:13,720 --> 01:48:17,960
Speaker 5: an adult, I think that this is a very good movie.

1801
01:48:18,640 --> 01:48:22,719
Speaker 5: At least two understand how we can start to think

1802
01:48:22,760 --> 01:48:26,400
Speaker 5: about biopics in a way that they actually portray the

1803
01:48:26,479 --> 01:48:29,600
Speaker 5: character in an integral manner and not just pick and

1804
01:48:29,680 --> 01:48:31,559
Speaker 5: choose whatever we want to make them.

1805
01:48:32,960 --> 01:48:34,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree.

1806
01:48:34,680 --> 01:48:37,320
Speaker 3: So you're going three and a half, kid, Yes, I'm

1807
01:48:37,360 --> 01:48:43,360
Speaker 3: going three and a half. I will distribute them between Samahayek.

1808
01:48:44,000 --> 01:48:47,920
Speaker 3: I want to give at least one nipple to the

1809
01:48:48,680 --> 01:48:56,640
Speaker 3: wedding toast that actually judges character. Yes, I love that

1810
01:48:56,720 --> 01:49:00,760
Speaker 3: so much. If anyone ever asks me to give a

1811
01:49:00,800 --> 01:49:04,080
Speaker 3: toast at their wedding, I'm just going to cite that

1812
01:49:04,240 --> 01:49:07,479
Speaker 3: exact speech noted because it's basically she's just like, I

1813
01:49:07,520 --> 01:49:10,840
Speaker 3: don't believe in marriage. I think it's either delusional or

1814
01:49:11,520 --> 01:49:15,559
Speaker 3: a way to trap women. But if people recognize that

1815
01:49:15,600 --> 01:49:18,639
Speaker 3: and they decide to get married anyway, then good for you.

1816
01:49:19,400 --> 01:49:22,839
Speaker 3: That's pretty cool, and that's how I feel about marriage.

1817
01:49:22,920 --> 01:49:27,920
Speaker 3: So one nipple, two the representation of free to call

1818
01:49:28,080 --> 01:49:32,200
Speaker 3: having underarm hair very good. That is something you don't

1819
01:49:32,479 --> 01:49:34,880
Speaker 3: see in movies, where like there will be a movie

1820
01:49:35,040 --> 01:49:38,880
Speaker 3: either at a time or a place where women would

1821
01:49:38,880 --> 01:49:42,799
Speaker 3: not have removed their body hair, but because it's a movie,

1822
01:49:42,880 --> 01:49:47,080
Speaker 3: it's like, yeah, all these characters in Cold Mountain don't

1823
01:49:47,280 --> 01:49:49,960
Speaker 3: have any body hair, and it's just like what right?

1824
01:49:50,720 --> 01:49:52,760
Speaker 4: Or when you see like I'm trying to think of

1825
01:49:52,840 --> 01:49:53,280
Speaker 4: what there.

1826
01:49:53,360 --> 01:49:56,080
Speaker 2: I saw a historical movie.

1827
01:49:55,800 --> 01:50:01,160
Speaker 4: Recently with nudity and every woman had a wax, and

1828
01:50:01,200 --> 01:50:02,640
Speaker 4: You're like, what is this?

1829
01:50:03,000 --> 01:50:04,599
Speaker 2: Like what are we doing here?

1830
01:50:05,120 --> 01:50:08,559
Speaker 4: Yeah, it feels like such a tiny thing, but it

1831
01:50:08,600 --> 01:50:12,040
Speaker 4: is wild how historically recently, just like any sort of

1832
01:50:12,280 --> 01:50:14,880
Speaker 4: body hair was just sober boten. There was like that

1833
01:50:15,360 --> 01:50:18,280
Speaker 4: red Carpet moment with Julia Roberts, like less than twenty

1834
01:50:18,400 --> 01:50:20,720
Speaker 4: years ago where she had armpit hair and it was.

1835
01:50:20,760 --> 01:50:24,439
Speaker 2: Like a global news story. You're like, grow up.

1836
01:50:24,800 --> 01:50:27,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, anyways, and then whatever I have left, I'm not

1837
01:50:27,840 --> 01:50:30,400
Speaker 3: really keeping track, but I would certainly want to give

1838
01:50:30,439 --> 01:50:34,280
Speaker 3: some of my nippleage to free to call oh herself, Yeah,

1839
01:50:34,600 --> 01:50:35,599
Speaker 3: feminist icon.

1840
01:50:38,400 --> 01:50:40,280
Speaker 4: I'm gonna do three and a half as well. I

1841
01:50:40,320 --> 01:50:42,640
Speaker 4: think that because you could just as easily call this

1842
01:50:42,680 --> 01:50:46,040
Speaker 4: movie Free to in Diego sort of takes away a

1843
01:50:46,080 --> 01:50:48,000
Speaker 4: little bit of like the focus where you want the

1844
01:50:48,320 --> 01:50:51,679
Speaker 4: movie to be, and I do agree that it seems

1845
01:50:51,720 --> 01:50:53,920
Speaker 4: to be at least as far as biopics go, and

1846
01:50:53,960 --> 01:50:57,920
Speaker 4: like how wildly inaccurate biopics tend to.

1847
01:50:57,880 --> 01:51:00,880
Speaker 2: Be or gloss over entire areas.

1848
01:51:00,640 --> 01:51:04,400
Speaker 6: Of the subject's identity because of what is considered acceptable

1849
01:51:04,400 --> 01:51:06,519
Speaker 6: to a mainstream audience at the time of production. I

1850
01:51:06,560 --> 01:51:09,680
Speaker 6: think this movie does so much more than I was

1851
01:51:09,720 --> 01:51:14,599
Speaker 6: expecting and does seem to be like a solid sort

1852
01:51:14,640 --> 01:51:18,519
Speaker 6: of one on one to what Frida's life was sort

1853
01:51:18,520 --> 01:51:21,040
Speaker 6: of in the in the major beats, but there's no Yeah.

1854
01:51:21,040 --> 01:51:24,080
Speaker 4: I wish that there was more focus on her artwork,

1855
01:51:24,120 --> 01:51:28,200
Speaker 4: her process, and what motivated her art, versus this hyper

1856
01:51:28,240 --> 01:51:31,680
Speaker 4: fixation on the relationship with Diego, because that can be

1857
01:51:31,720 --> 01:51:34,800
Speaker 4: important in her life and not be the thrust of

1858
01:51:34,960 --> 01:51:37,200
Speaker 4: her life, which it seems like towards the end of

1859
01:51:37,200 --> 01:51:40,639
Speaker 4: her life how she felt as well, also huge question

1860
01:51:40,720 --> 01:51:43,160
Speaker 4: of like would she want her life story be commodified

1861
01:51:43,200 --> 01:51:43,920
Speaker 4: into a movie?

1862
01:51:44,840 --> 01:51:49,040
Speaker 5: Maybe not but by Hollywood no, definitely not.

1863
01:51:49,320 --> 01:51:56,040
Speaker 3: Yes, made by a sex criminal multi millionaire no.

1864
01:51:55,560 --> 01:51:58,120
Speaker 4: Right, So it's also dogging, I mean, just the darkness

1865
01:51:58,200 --> 01:52:02,360
Speaker 4: in this production. I hate how it's like such a

1866
01:52:02,400 --> 01:52:07,120
Speaker 4: horrible example of how even making art that is, you know,

1867
01:52:07,439 --> 01:52:11,920
Speaker 4: more subversive than you're used to seeing required on Selma

1868
01:52:11,960 --> 01:52:16,160
Speaker 4: Hyak's part, the like cooperation with an absolute monster to

1869
01:52:16,200 --> 01:52:19,680
Speaker 4: even make it possible, and subsequently erasing all of her

1870
01:52:19,720 --> 01:52:22,400
Speaker 4: amazing production work and all of this stuff, and having

1871
01:52:22,479 --> 01:52:25,720
Speaker 4: the release and the awards campaign for this movie to

1872
01:52:25,760 --> 01:52:30,679
Speaker 4: be completely sabotaged basically. But anyways, I like the movie

1873
01:52:30,880 --> 01:52:34,280
Speaker 4: quite a bit, and so I'm going to give one

1874
01:52:34,360 --> 01:52:38,960
Speaker 4: nipple to free to callow one nipple to Salma Hayek.

1875
01:52:39,840 --> 01:52:44,160
Speaker 2: I'm going to give hm Well one nipple.

1876
01:52:43,920 --> 01:52:47,040
Speaker 4: To olt from Malina Well of course, and I'll give

1877
01:52:47,080 --> 01:52:51,679
Speaker 4: my final half in a showing of waving the little

1878
01:52:51,680 --> 01:52:52,320
Speaker 4: white flag.

1879
01:52:52,479 --> 01:52:54,320
Speaker 2: I'll give the last half to Diane Lake.

1880
01:52:55,320 --> 01:52:57,000
Speaker 3: Whoa see, I thought you were going to be like

1881
01:52:57,000 --> 01:52:59,760
Speaker 3: and I'm going to give a pile of shaite to

1882
01:52:59,800 --> 01:53:00,519
Speaker 3: die and like.

1883
01:53:00,960 --> 01:53:03,360
Speaker 2: I'm growing up. We'll let bygone speak up by gones.

1884
01:53:03,439 --> 01:53:06,799
Speaker 5: Yeah, two hours ago you were a different person.

1885
01:53:07,080 --> 01:53:10,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, but she was so wrong to give me a sea.

1886
01:53:11,000 --> 01:53:13,320
Speaker 4: Come on, maybe your class was less boring.

1887
01:53:13,360 --> 01:53:14,519
Speaker 2: I want to showed up on time.

1888
01:53:15,120 --> 01:53:18,439
Speaker 4: Who maybe if all you did, if she did Okay,

1889
01:53:18,439 --> 01:53:20,200
Speaker 4: now I'm being meeting again. All she ever did was

1890
01:53:20,240 --> 01:53:22,280
Speaker 4: talk about how she was a credited writer on Freda.

1891
01:53:22,439 --> 01:53:23,000
Speaker 5: Oh my god.

1892
01:53:23,000 --> 01:53:26,200
Speaker 4: I was like, yeah, they came out fifteen years ago, lady,

1893
01:53:26,800 --> 01:53:28,120
Speaker 4: what's new anyways?

1894
01:53:28,240 --> 01:53:28,559
Speaker 2: All right?

1895
01:53:28,640 --> 01:53:33,360
Speaker 3: Sorry, anyway, Anela, how about you? What say you?

1896
01:53:33,720 --> 01:53:36,400
Speaker 5: I agree with you. I think three and a half

1897
01:53:36,560 --> 01:53:41,040
Speaker 5: is a good rating. My first nipple goes to Saramahayak

1898
01:53:41,040 --> 01:53:45,200
Speaker 5: two because she did this amazing production and I think

1899
01:53:45,560 --> 01:53:49,440
Speaker 5: I'm very proud that she's my my Paisana.

1900
01:53:49,600 --> 01:53:49,960
Speaker 3: Yes.

1901
01:53:50,320 --> 01:53:54,400
Speaker 5: Then my second one would go to the scene the

1902
01:53:54,439 --> 01:53:59,840
Speaker 5: sequence that has Treats giving assassinated Anthea painting the two

1903
01:54:00,040 --> 01:54:02,080
Speaker 5: that's at the same time. I found such a good

1904
01:54:02,320 --> 01:54:06,200
Speaker 5: sequence that was my favorite part of the movie. And

1905
01:54:06,960 --> 01:54:10,360
Speaker 5: the third one I would like to give to Frida

1906
01:54:10,439 --> 01:54:16,280
Speaker 5: as an artist, but also particularly her showing up to

1907
01:54:16,360 --> 01:54:20,280
Speaker 5: the exhibition for the last in her bed.

1908
01:54:20,600 --> 01:54:23,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's such a good moment. Yeah.

1909
01:54:23,120 --> 01:54:26,760
Speaker 5: Yeah. And some doctors think that that probably was the

1910
01:54:26,760 --> 01:54:29,720
Speaker 5: thing that ended up killing her going out like that,

1911
01:54:30,000 --> 01:54:32,520
Speaker 5: but I mean it was worth it, I think for her,

1912
01:54:33,040 --> 01:54:35,640
Speaker 5: and I think it was such a good moment both

1913
01:54:35,680 --> 01:54:36,880
Speaker 5: in the movie and in her life.

1914
01:54:36,960 --> 01:54:37,320
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1915
01:54:37,440 --> 01:54:39,520
Speaker 3: I like the part where she's like, burn this judas

1916
01:54:39,560 --> 01:54:43,600
Speaker 3: of a body because it betrays me. She was in

1917
01:54:43,680 --> 01:54:47,600
Speaker 3: so much pain. Yeah, she was absolutely suffering.

1918
01:54:47,880 --> 01:54:51,120
Speaker 5: And there are some historians that believe that she committed

1919
01:54:51,160 --> 01:54:55,040
Speaker 5: suicide by taking eleven instead of the seven pills she

1920
01:54:55,160 --> 01:54:59,280
Speaker 5: had prescribed to her, because her nurse said that. But

1921
01:54:59,320 --> 01:55:02,120
Speaker 5: we don't know. She died on her own terms, and

1922
01:55:02,120 --> 01:55:04,200
Speaker 5: she didd everything on her own terms, and I think

1923
01:55:04,200 --> 01:55:07,960
Speaker 5: that's amazing. My half of a star would go to

1924
01:55:08,120 --> 01:55:12,640
Speaker 5: Rodrigo Prieto because yes, yes, he's also my Paisano. And

1925
01:55:12,680 --> 01:55:14,960
Speaker 5: the cinematography is amazing, and he gave us a lot

1926
01:55:14,960 --> 01:55:17,760
Speaker 5: of different movies to talk about in the span of

1927
01:55:17,760 --> 01:55:19,240
Speaker 5: two minutes, so it was great.

1928
01:55:19,440 --> 01:55:22,920
Speaker 4: Yes we should, Kaitlin now would be a good idea

1929
01:55:22,960 --> 01:55:25,720
Speaker 4: for the Matreon. Just choose two random movies. He was

1930
01:55:25,720 --> 01:55:29,040
Speaker 4: a cinematographer for you could pick almost any genre of movie.

1931
01:55:29,640 --> 01:55:33,880
Speaker 3: Let's do it. Let's do that for December, yeah, in November.

1932
01:55:34,480 --> 01:55:38,080
Speaker 3: Thank you so much Angle for joining us and for

1933
01:55:38,160 --> 01:55:42,720
Speaker 3: lending your expertise. Is there anything you'd like to plug

1934
01:55:42,840 --> 01:55:44,280
Speaker 3: or anything like that.

1935
01:55:44,640 --> 01:55:47,320
Speaker 5: I would like people to look at Tina Modotti's pictures,

1936
01:55:47,920 --> 01:55:50,880
Speaker 5: her photographs. I would like to plug her even though

1937
01:55:50,920 --> 01:55:53,320
Speaker 5: she's been dead for a few years now, because she's

1938
01:55:53,360 --> 01:55:56,200
Speaker 5: portraying the movie and her pictures are portrayed for a

1939
01:55:56,280 --> 01:56:00,680
Speaker 5: quick sequence. But I think that it's amazing how she

1940
01:56:00,920 --> 01:56:05,360
Speaker 5: depicted everything communism and the Mexican Revolution and the Mexican

1941
01:56:05,440 --> 01:56:07,680
Speaker 5: working class through her pictures. So look at in them

1942
01:56:07,720 --> 01:56:13,600
Speaker 5: out these pictures. My Instagram account is Angela CMPs. It's

1943
01:56:13,920 --> 01:56:16,600
Speaker 5: private for now, but I'll make it public for a

1944
01:56:16,640 --> 01:56:20,440
Speaker 5: couple of days if anyone wants to follow act now

1945
01:56:20,800 --> 01:56:23,160
Speaker 5: because if not, my students will find it and I

1946
01:56:23,160 --> 01:56:28,160
Speaker 5: don't want them following me because teenagers in social media

1947
01:56:28,200 --> 01:56:34,600
Speaker 5: are not my favorite thing. So that's about it. Thank

1948
01:56:34,640 --> 01:56:37,640
Speaker 5: you so much for having me. I could talk to

1949
01:56:37,840 --> 01:56:42,800
Speaker 5: two amazing women for two hours about my favorite topic.

1950
01:56:42,920 --> 01:56:46,000
Speaker 5: So I don't know why I cannot do this every

1951
01:56:46,040 --> 01:56:47,520
Speaker 5: day of my life, but I wish I could.

1952
01:56:49,080 --> 01:56:52,720
Speaker 2: We'll have you back for another movie. Yeah, come back anytime.

1953
01:56:53,320 --> 01:56:55,680
Speaker 5: Whenever you want to have me. I'll come back because

1954
01:56:55,720 --> 01:56:57,360
Speaker 5: I had so much fun. Thank you very much.

1955
01:56:57,400 --> 01:57:00,680
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, thank you. I had a class truly.

1956
01:57:00,760 --> 01:57:01,080
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1957
01:57:01,320 --> 01:57:04,640
Speaker 3: And as far as where you can find us, it's

1958
01:57:04,800 --> 01:57:10,120
Speaker 3: on the same old places Instagram. It's on the Patreon

1959
01:57:10,200 --> 01:57:15,560
Speaker 3: aka Matreon five bucks a month, two bonus episodes every month,

1960
01:57:15,600 --> 01:57:17,360
Speaker 3: plus the back catalog.

1961
01:57:17,160 --> 01:57:21,760
Speaker 4: Right now, because it's ok tuba. We are doing two

1962
01:57:22,160 --> 01:57:26,560
Speaker 4: scary movies that center women, we did and we just

1963
01:57:26,640 --> 01:57:29,800
Speaker 4: an episode on the Exorcist and we're covering Pearl later

1964
01:57:29,920 --> 01:57:33,000
Speaker 4: in the month. So yeah, head over there, check that out.

1965
01:57:33,000 --> 01:57:35,200
Speaker 4: You can get our merch at teapublic dot com. Slash

1966
01:57:35,280 --> 01:57:38,400
Speaker 4: the Bechdel Cast And.

1967
01:57:38,880 --> 01:57:40,960
Speaker 3: With that, I'm gonna get in bed and then make

1968
01:57:41,000 --> 01:57:44,640
Speaker 3: a bunch of men carry me around in bed.

1969
01:57:45,400 --> 01:57:46,080
Speaker 5: As you should.

1970
01:57:46,440 --> 01:57:50,240
Speaker 4: Yes go, everyone deserves that moment.

1971
01:57:50,360 --> 01:57:54,200
Speaker 5: Yep, bye bye.

1972
01:57:57,160 --> 01:58:00,440
Speaker 3: The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, host by

1973
01:58:00,520 --> 01:58:04,360
Speaker 3: Caitlin Derante and Jamie Loftis, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited

1974
01:58:04,480 --> 01:58:07,640
Speaker 3: by Moe laboord our theme song was composed by Mike

1975
01:58:07,760 --> 01:58:12,120
Speaker 3: Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Voskressensky. Our logo and merch

1976
01:58:12,280 --> 01:58:15,240
Speaker 3: is designed by Jamie Loftis and a special thanks to

1977
01:58:15,280 --> 01:58:19,640
Speaker 3: Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit

1978
01:58:19,760 --> 01:58:21,280
Speaker 3: linktree slash Bechdelcast