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Speaker 1: This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You

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Speaker 1: can't predict anything. The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to

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Speaker 1: you by first Light. Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging

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Speaker 1: deer stands, or scouting for ELK. First Light has performance

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Speaker 1: apparel to support every hunter in every environment. Check it

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Speaker 1: out at first light dot com. F I R S

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Speaker 1: T l I t e dot com. Joined today by

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Speaker 1: Jim Beach Tool, who doesn't shoot shit unless you can

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Speaker 1: shoot it with a muzzleoader.

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Speaker 2: I know how to use your rifle, I just choose

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Speaker 2: not to.

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Speaker 3: When did you?

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Speaker 1: When did you quit?

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Speaker 2: Nineteen eighty six? What happened? I decided I want to

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Speaker 2: get close with a single shot, but.

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Speaker 4: You still get closer to singing. You wanted to force

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Speaker 4: yourself to get closer to the setter shot. Would you

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Speaker 4: shoot prior to shooting a mussloader?

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Speaker 2: I got my dad's thirty at six seven twenty one

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Speaker 2: that he bought in nineteen fifty Premington seven twenty.

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Speaker 1: One nows you're gone.

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Speaker 2: I still have it. I still hunt with it. I

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Speaker 2: take my dad with me every year we go out

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Speaker 2: and do a hunt together, and then I put him

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Speaker 2: away and I take the muzzle litter.

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Speaker 1: Out, so you you house his gun for him.

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Speaker 2: My father's passed away, and so my oh I I

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Speaker 2: made a promise to him the day died him, and

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Speaker 2: I'd go hunting together every year.

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Speaker 1: So you take it out, I take it.

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Speaker 2: Out, and we go hunting together every year.

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Speaker 1: All right, works, But another than that, all musload all

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Speaker 1: the time.

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Speaker 2: I try to. Sometimes I falter some days. It's really

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Speaker 2: wet up in Southeast Alaskaay makes it really hard to

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Speaker 2: do flintlocks and percussion and stuff like that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, because you live in the worst place to be

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Speaker 4: a mussloader hunter in the world pretty much.

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Speaker 2: But you know, I figure all those the people that

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Speaker 2: came before us, the English and the Russian trappers and

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Speaker 2: the natives who got muzzleloaders for strade items and stuff

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Speaker 2: like that, they figured it out. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And so I use a wool bag. I placed my

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Speaker 2: firearm in a wool bag, and the wool swells up,

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Speaker 2: keeps some moisture from getting in there. And I think

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Speaker 2: I've had one or two times in thirty five years

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Speaker 2: of being up there that that cap hasn't gone off.

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Speaker 2: No kid.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Now it's our friend in common. Jim Heffelfinger said,

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Speaker 5: if you look at the Alaska muzzleoder records, it reads

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Speaker 5: like a beach Tel phone book. That's a great line.

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Speaker 3: That's a great line. And they're all named Jim.

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Speaker 1: H.

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Speaker 4: So you submit how these state records you have quite

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Speaker 4: a few. Well, well, just brag up for minute, I

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Speaker 4: asked you. So you're not bragging. I'm just asking a question.

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Speaker 4: I have over thirty deer.

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Speaker 2: I have the world record SIIC of black tail for

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Speaker 2: a muzzloader and number two somebody's got number three. And

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Speaker 2: then I have four, eight, nine, ten and a bunch more.

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Speaker 1: That's incredible, man.

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Speaker 2: And you shoot flintlock or cap cap, but I'm experimenting

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Speaker 2: now with flintlock. That's where we've been talking back and forth.

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Speaker 2: And so because I worked for Alaska Department of Fishing

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Speaker 2: Game for so many years, the gentleman that was the

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Speaker 2: wildlife biologist, Dave Person, was a master gun builder and

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Speaker 2: as a thank you for all the years of darting

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Speaker 2: deer and following deer and stuff, he built me a beautiful,

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Speaker 2: beautiful flintlock. And I've taken probably eight or nine deer

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Speaker 2: with that flintlock, and I've got a couple of smooth

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Speaker 2: bore flintlocks that i've I've killed a black bear and

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Speaker 2: caribou and stuff like that with him.

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Speaker 1: So do you have a fouling piece?

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Speaker 2: I do?

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Speaker 1: Do you shoot ducks with it?

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Speaker 2: I have killed four turkeys and it doesn't have a choke,

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Speaker 2: and so the best pattern I get is about fifteen yards,

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Speaker 2: So I set twenty yards is my maximum. I won't

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Speaker 2: shoot beyond twenty yards when I call those birds, it

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Speaker 2: got it got to be close, really close.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there is a fouling piece what you call a

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Speaker 3: gun shotgun.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, specific to just birds. But one of the during

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Speaker 5: my back and forth with Gym, and it makes absolute

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Speaker 5: common sense. So it's not like a big epiphany, but

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Speaker 5: like the the reason that the round ball and smooth

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Speaker 5: bore stuck around for so long, even when technology was

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Speaker 5: readily available and far surpassed it is folks just could

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Speaker 5: only have one firearm. So they'd take a smooth bore

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Speaker 5: fifty eight caliber hawking or whatever it got bored out to,

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Speaker 5: and they use that for small game birds, like.

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Speaker 1: Whether you're pouring shot down or you're jamming a lead

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Speaker 1: down it.

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Speaker 5: Or yep, exactly. So using it for with one piece

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Speaker 5: of shot for big game, the big, big solid ball,

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Speaker 5: or pouring a bunch of small shot down there.

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Speaker 2: I mean, Gus, you have a tremendous versatility. I've hunted

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Speaker 2: moose with a smooth bore, flint locked interior, and it's

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Speaker 2: a sixty two caliber French fusel fin. So if we

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Speaker 2: would have been French voyagers, we had have been issued

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Speaker 2: this gun. M M. And you take the round ball

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Speaker 2: and I stitched the patch on and I set it

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Speaker 2: down and urn in the morning I would go and

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Speaker 2: hunt moose. And then I reached down and I pulled

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Speaker 2: the round ball out and put shot down, and I

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Speaker 2: went down along the river and shot a brace of

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Speaker 2: grouse down along the river, and put my round bawl

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Speaker 2: back on and hunted moose all the way back up

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Speaker 2: to camp. Got it. So I was like, super super

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Speaker 2: super flexible.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, there's nothing more efficient than that.

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Speaker 4: No, when we were doing all of our research for

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Speaker 4: our Mountain Man audiobook, we'd read these guys at night

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Speaker 4: would take in a at night, they would put five

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Speaker 4: buck shot in their gun and then they'd cap it

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Speaker 4: with a or maybe vice versa. They'd take their rifles

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Speaker 4: and put five buck shot in them, and then they'd

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Speaker 4: cap it with a ball their nighttime home defense home

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Speaker 4: to fetch thing home defense system.

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Speaker 2: I'll tell you what they had. Must have been pulling

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Speaker 2: that ball then come morning, because you and years and

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Speaker 2: years ago, I was in the interior and I was

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Speaker 2: hunting ptarmigan and I came over a ledge and there

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Speaker 2: was a beautiful bull caribou twenty yards away, and I

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Speaker 2: backed off, and I had an ounce and a quarter

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Speaker 2: of shot, number five shot, and I just set a

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Speaker 2: round bawl down on top of that, and belly crawled

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Speaker 2: forward and shot that caribou. And I figured out later

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Speaker 2: about tore my shoulder off, because that was like seven hundred.

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Speaker 3: Grads what you did.

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Speaker 2: I didn't think about the equal and opposite reaction thing

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Speaker 2: to recoil. It killed the caribou, you did, yeah, actually,

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Speaker 2: And I had like four or five pieces of shot

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Speaker 2: in the heart too. It penetrated deep enough I could

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Speaker 2: have killed him with the shots blowed. He was really close. Uh.

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Speaker 1: You always worked as a geologist.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Speaker 1: Where'd you grow up?

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Speaker 2: I grew up around Mount Saint Helen's Country, southwest Washington.

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Speaker 2: We had a small farm there and by we had

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Speaker 2: about one hundred and twenty acres of timber. That's where

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Speaker 2: I disappeared into once my chores were done.

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Speaker 1: Houdge get in geology.

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Speaker 2: I was a kid. My folks decided we needed to

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Speaker 2: have some kind of a family hobby, and they picked

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Speaker 2: rock counting or lapidary, where you go out and dig

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Speaker 2: up petrified wood and agates and jaspers and opals and

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Speaker 2: obsidian and other stuff and fossils and somewhere I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Eleven twelve years old, I got to think, and this

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Speaker 2: can't be random. We're finding this aggat here because of

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Speaker 2: a process, and we're finding this thunderregg here because of

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Speaker 2: a process in the petrified wood. And basically that's geology.

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Speaker 2: And so I always knew what I wanted to be.

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Speaker 2: I'm still looking for those answers.

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Speaker 1: How'd you come to be doing it in Alaska?

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Speaker 2: Luck? Yeah, I grew up listening to my grandfather. My

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Speaker 2: grandfather on my father's side was in Alaska in nineteen nineteen,

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Speaker 2: nineteen twenty and twenty one, and then he was back

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Speaker 2: again in thirty seven through forty two, and I heard

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Speaker 2: all the stories of Alaska.

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Speaker 1: What was he doing here was a trapper.

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Speaker 2: He soloed all the way down from basically the Yukon.

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Speaker 2: He sold it all the way down the Yukon Drainage

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Speaker 2: in nineteen nineteen and nine nineteen twenty and ended up

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Speaker 2: in Katsubu and the winter of nineteen twenty trapping along

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Speaker 2: the Yukon River that at a kadoo and was by

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Speaker 2: himself going down there. And I grew up listening to

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Speaker 2: all those stories and had a huge fascination. And so

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Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety there was a position opened up with

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Speaker 2: the Tongas National Forest to be a geologist there, and

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Speaker 2: I applied for it and luckily got it. Most Force

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Speaker 2: service people kind of come for three or four years

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Speaker 2: and move off on some other kind of thing. And

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Speaker 2: I fell in love with Southeast Alaska and realized that

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Speaker 2: very little was known about the geology. They had mapped

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Speaker 2: around the shoreline, but they'd never really mapped to the

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Speaker 2: interior of the islands. And then I got into the

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Speaker 2: whole cave and kars management thing up there, that there's

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Speaker 2: thousands of caves across vast areas of the rainforest, and

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Speaker 2: there was a thing called a Federal Cave Protection Act

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Speaker 2: and so you were supposed to protect caves on federal lands,

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Speaker 2: and the more developed the cave areas were, the bigger

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Speaker 2: the trees were, so they were direct conflict with timber

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Speaker 2: management going on. So I was tasked with going out

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Speaker 2: and finding those caves and mitigating the impacts of any

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Speaker 2: proposed activity. So I got to explore all those woods

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Speaker 2: all over Southeast Alaska, and I just just fell in

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Speaker 2: love with it, just fell in love with the place

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Speaker 2: and the unknown things of geology, the things that you

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Speaker 2: could map, the glacial history, the uplift history, the kind

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Speaker 2: of geoarchaeology side of things like wording with people on

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Speaker 2: the landscape and how could I help define that?

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Speaker 3: Why is that important to map that sort of stuff?

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Speaker 2: If you have an idea of the geology, it's kind

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Speaker 2: of like a soils map. It's a productivity thing. Where's

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Speaker 2: the vegetation, what plants are there? Why are those plants there?

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Speaker 2: How did the glaciers interact with the landscape. Why does

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Speaker 2: landscape look like it does? And that's all controlled by

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Speaker 2: the bedrock geology, and Southeast Alaska is bits and pieces

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Speaker 2: of continents. It's been added on, so it's like this

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Speaker 2: little pile up of pieces. I think we'd call it

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Speaker 2: a terrain wreck. It's terrains are what this was in there,

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Speaker 2: and so the geology is super varied. As you kind

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Speaker 2: of move northeast southwest across the island, or it's similar

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Speaker 2: you move northeast southeast, but as you move towards the

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Speaker 2: east across there, you're just going from terrain terrain terrain

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Speaker 2: terrain with They all have their blocks of rock that

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Speaker 2: have a similar geologic history and how they were added

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Speaker 2: on to the continent. So it's a fascinating geology that. Again,

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Speaker 2: the original mapping was around the shorelines and wherever there

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Speaker 2: were mineral deposits found, but kind of the rest of

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Speaker 2: that had not been worked on very much. So I

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Speaker 2: partnered with the US Geological Survey, a woman my name

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Speaker 2: is su Carl, and I for twenty five years have

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Speaker 2: been trying to fill in some of those holes in

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Speaker 2: the GEOLO maps and get that information out there.

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Speaker 1: You meet running around and I remember you showing me

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Speaker 1: about how the trees grow extra big over the cave networks,

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Speaker 1: but I can't remember why you took what it was

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Speaker 1: you told me that.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's two in southeast Alaska, there's two incredibly productive

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Speaker 2: forest areas. What is alluvial fan or riparian spruce riparian

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Speaker 2: area down along a stream of gravels, well drained gravels

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Speaker 2: but nutrient rich and the other ones on the carbonates.

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Speaker 2: And so the fractures of the limestone are open down

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Speaker 2: maybe fifty feet, little teeny hairline fractures, and the roots

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Speaker 2: can get down into that and they access the non

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Speaker 2: acidic waters then because the limestone has buffered the rain

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Speaker 2: water and the organic water that's very acidic. So you

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Speaker 2: have nutrient rich water that's basic and a well drained

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Speaker 2: landscape much like a gravel pile as well drained fluctuates

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Speaker 2: with rivers and streams, and so this is another type

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Speaker 2: of productive landscape. And the other thing is most of

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Speaker 2: our big trees are big spruce and stuff like that.

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Speaker 2: In southeast Alaska have a very shallow root system on

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Speaker 2: top of glacial till. You've seen that and they fall

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Speaker 2: what they fall over, You've got a thirty foot diameter

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Speaker 2: root mass that's like eighteen inches deep.

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Speaker 1: That always blows my mind when you see that and

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Speaker 1: they tip and you're like, what in the hell is

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Speaker 1: the hole? Non too? Anyways, but just keels away and

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Speaker 1: you're look and there's a rock sitting there and it's

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Speaker 1: got like a never ending disc of shit. That was

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Speaker 1: a hand deep, hand deep.

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Speaker 2: It's amazing.

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Speaker 1: You wonder how it ever stood there anyways.

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Speaker 2: And the limestone, it can get down in those fractures,

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Speaker 2: grab on and it's holding on. And so you'll see

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Speaker 2: instead of a rootball tip over, frequently you'll see it

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Speaker 2: snapped off forty feet up. When the and that sail

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Speaker 2: in the top of the tree gets big enough that

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Speaker 2: it can't take the wind pressure of our storms, it'll

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Speaker 2: snap off instead of turning over the roots because it's

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Speaker 2: still holding so tight. So a lot of the trees

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Speaker 2: grew older and larger. So a lot of the original

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Speaker 2: timber harvest in southeast Alaska was focused on the limestone areas,

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Speaker 2: which makes total sense.

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Speaker 1: It's a big trees.

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Speaker 2: I explored those areas, locating the caves and the rivers

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Speaker 2: going underground, the streams going underground, and the vertical pits

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Speaker 2: and that kind of thing. But then I also put

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Speaker 2: together expeditions of folks who would come and explore those caves,

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Speaker 2: and we had paleontologists and that, and we basically started

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Speaker 2: when I got to southeast Alaska. Any published document that

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Speaker 2: you read said we were a blanket of ice to

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Speaker 2: the edge of the continental margin until ten thousand years ago,

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Speaker 2: and nothing lived there. And the first thing we did

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Speaker 2: was find a cave full of bones that were ten eleven,

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Speaker 2: twelve thousand years old, and started challenging that. We kept

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Speaker 2: pushing that back, and so we changed that paradigm through

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Speaker 2: time on when did the ice pull back? And what

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Speaker 2: was the environments like, and who's living there and stuff

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Speaker 2: like that.

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Speaker 1: What was the old ass deerbone? You found.

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Speaker 2: Hekata Island in a cave called Nautilus Cave, and what

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Speaker 2: used to be a vertical pit. Coming into that cave

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Speaker 2: that had filled with sediment and a little alcove, I

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Speaker 2: found tree. It was leg bones and those were basically

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Speaker 2: nine two hundred, nine thousand, five hundred years old. Somewhere

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Speaker 2: in that vicinity right there.

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Speaker 1: Blacktailed deer we now know they're black tailed deer.

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Speaker 2: We did know what it was then because we'd actually

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Speaker 2: found a bunch of caribou bones in the caves. So

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Speaker 2: there were caribou on Prince of Well's Island until ten thousand,

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Speaker 2: five hundred years ago. But recently working with Charlotte Linquest

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Speaker 2: and her students back in Buffalo. They did the paleogenetics

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Speaker 2: and it is a sick of black tailed deer. Apardon me,

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Speaker 2: it is a black tailed deer. So they all the

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Speaker 2: first deer to show up. So we have three bones.

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Speaker 2: We have one out of that cave, one out of

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Speaker 2: Xena Cave that's seven eight hundred years old, and a

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Speaker 2: bone out of a shell midden left by natives at

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Speaker 2: a campsite. They're waste. Basically, there was a deer leg

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Speaker 2: bone in there that turned out I mean a bone

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Speaker 2: that had been identified as a caribou bone, but what

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Speaker 2: we did the genetics, it came out as a black

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Speaker 2: tail bone. Those three blacktail are definitely sit of blacktail,

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Speaker 2: but they contain a little bit of mule deer mitochondrial DNA,

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Speaker 2: which should be different than now. Yeah, and so then

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Speaker 2: we have hundreds and hundreds of deer bones in cave.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk about how those bones get caught in

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Speaker 1: the caves? I mean you may have the opportunity to

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Speaker 1: go look just for people listen.

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Speaker 4: When we're filming our show Hunting History, we spent a

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Speaker 4: day with Jim in caves.

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Speaker 1: So Jim was able to show me how they function.

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Speaker 1: But can you tell people how the caves trap shit?

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Speaker 5: And also just a it'll come out in your thought process,

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Speaker 5: I'm sure. But like when you find a bone in

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Speaker 5: a cave versus like the shell midden bone, there's probably

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Speaker 5: some conclusions that you jump to from one or the other.

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Speaker 2: When you find a bone in a cave, you absolutely

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Speaker 2: don't know how old it is. They usually turn slightly

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Speaker 2: brown from the tannins and the organic waters of southeast.

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Speaker 2: You've seen that many times around your place there. But

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Speaker 2: the bone itself, twenty thousand year old bone look like

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Speaker 2: a one hundred year old bone. You cannot tell by

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Speaker 2: picking up the bone all right and just looking at it.

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Speaker 2: And mostly what happens is either a predator was in

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Speaker 2: a dry portion of a cave and brought part of

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Speaker 2: its meal in. Or and a lot of times we

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Speaker 2: have bones in the In one particular cave that had

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Speaker 2: so many bones, it was Arctic fox bringing bones in

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Speaker 2: from a large predator and depositing in the caves. Or

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Speaker 2: they're a vertical trap. So remember as we came around

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Speaker 2: from the flooded sank Holder, there was that vertical pit

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Speaker 2: right off of.

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Speaker 1: It the shit out of me.

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Speaker 4: I mean, we were safe looking at it, but I

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Speaker 4: was like, man, I didn't know there's shit like that

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Speaker 4: around here.

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Speaker 2: We were on that boardwalk, you remember, looking down that hole.

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Speaker 2: So that was a hole that was roughly the size

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Speaker 2: of this room. That the entrance was about three feet across,

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Speaker 2: and that was an organic mat. So if we would

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Speaker 2: walk on that, you'd go right through. Well, that's what

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Speaker 2: the deer.

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Speaker 4: You would never know how on some of that stuff

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Speaker 4: you would never if you were just about dicking around,

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Speaker 4: you would one hundred percent walk down in air. And

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Speaker 4: just god, how many dudes must be laying in those

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Speaker 4: holes we have.

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Speaker 2: We've actually had a few vertical pits that have a

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Speaker 2: little pile of bones deer and bear and stuff right

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Speaker 2: where they one I can think of one hundred and

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Speaker 2: fifty feet deep. We called Bear's plunge because the entrance

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Speaker 2: is about the size of this table, but at the

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Speaker 2: bottom it's one hundred feet in diameter and it just

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Speaker 2: bells out. So when you repel into that, you're like

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Speaker 2: a spider coming down off of a web. And here

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Speaker 2: was this mound of bones at the bottom that had

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Speaker 2: accumulated over several.

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Speaker 1: Thousand years What all was in that pile?

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Speaker 2: That was mainly black bear and deer, but there was

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Speaker 2: a few small rodents and stuff like that. No people, no,

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Speaker 2: no people in that. So yeah, it's uh so either

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Speaker 2: a vertical trap or somebody brings it into the cave.

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Speaker 2: They can wash into the cave hang it, but it's

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Speaker 2: really hard to the bones usually then get washed on

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Speaker 2: through the cave if they get into a stream course

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Speaker 2: or something like that. Uh.

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Speaker 4: I want to jump out of this a little bit

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Speaker 4: to get to something with them. After you retired from

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Speaker 4: geology after thirty years, right, yes, and instead of just

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Speaker 4: kicking it and hunting with your muzzle loader and everything,

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Speaker 4: you got involved on a volunteer basis with meald your foundation.

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Speaker 2: I'm actually a contractor for the meal here, okay, but

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Speaker 2: there's also some and there's there, there's I am kind

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Speaker 2: of going out and getting other things, and so I'm

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Speaker 2: not always working for him, but I'm still working for him.

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Speaker 1: Yep. God it.

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Speaker 4: And in particular you became like particularly focused on blacktail deer.

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Speaker 2: So Miles BURRITI was the CEO for years and working

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Speaker 2: and had I had started going down in two thousand

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Speaker 2: and six and I manned a booth at the Hunt

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Speaker 2: Expo in Salt Lake City about Siica blacktail on the

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Speaker 2: Tagus National Forest, which is kind of funny. I was

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Speaker 2: a geologist representing the Tongus National Forest talking about sick

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Speaker 2: of black tail deer. They weren't sending they weren't sending

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Speaker 2: biologists down there. I went down and so I kept saying,

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Speaker 2: you know, like in your mission, Sameman, it says buel

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Speaker 2: deer and blacktail deer in their habitat, that's what your

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Speaker 2: focus is on the conservation of that. And I said,

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Speaker 2: what can we do for blacktail? And so I was

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Speaker 2: pretty relentless with that for years and years and years.

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Speaker 2: And then Joel took over CEO three four years ago now,

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Speaker 2: and he goes, what are we doing for black tail deer?

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Speaker 2: And about that time, Steve Belinda, a good friend of mine,

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Speaker 2: called and said it's time to pony up. He do.

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Speaker 2: I just retired, and I said, what's going on? And

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Speaker 2: he goes, we want to start creating a focus on

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Speaker 2: blacktail deer. And I said, I was really enjoying retirement.

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Speaker 2: And I said, but I meant one hundred percent, because

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Speaker 2: this is where we've always wanted to get to and

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Speaker 2: so we went to Leopold put and the Bielder Foundation

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Speaker 2: put on a blacktail summit that all of the agencies

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Speaker 2: and a lot of the forests sent people to and

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Speaker 2: it was held at Leopold's headquarters in twenty two. In

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Speaker 2: April of twenty two, we really realized that the conservation

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00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:52,960
Speaker 2: of blacktail it's pretty much the same issues from northern

403
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:58,399
Speaker 2: California to Alaska as related to habitat and how man

404
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 2: has changed the landscape through timber management. There's different challenges,

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00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,920
Speaker 2: there's different things, different predation schemes and stuff like that,

406
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:11,280
Speaker 2: but the challenges were the same, and so we started

407
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Speaker 2: putting a much larger focus in that and trying to

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Speaker 2: get more chapter we could get get chapters established. There

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Speaker 2: was no Meal Deer Foundation chapters up there. And one

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Speaker 2: of the biggest problems I had in Alaska was going

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Speaker 2: into a community and setting down with a group of

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Speaker 2: people and the first question was like, well, why does

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Speaker 2: the Milder Foundation want to help us with blacktail? So

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Speaker 2: I'd spend most of my time talking about that and

415
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Speaker 2: finally get around to substantive things that we could do

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Speaker 2: on the landscape.

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Speaker 4: Let's back up to that question though, why do people

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Speaker 4: think of meal deer and black like talk about the

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00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 4: taxonomy of a blacktail. Ah, right, I mean it's like, uh,

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Speaker 4: they're like not brothers, but cousins, meal deer cousins cousins.

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Speaker 2: And so it was Emily Latch and Jim Heffelfinger who

422
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 2: we talked about, had did a genetic paper that showed

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00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 2: that starting about at the beginning of the last series

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Speaker 2: of ice age, the Great Last Ice Ages two and

425
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Speaker 2: a half million years ago, probably because of snow levels

426
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 2: and glaciers in the Cascade coastal mountain range there of Washington, Oregon,

427
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 2: Idaho down to California, it separated whatever was a proto

428
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 2: deer from what we now know as a mule deer,

429
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Speaker 2: and in coastal refugia or coastal areas, blacktail developed separated

430
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Speaker 2: from those mule deer, and.

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Speaker 1: So they got separated by ice.

432
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Speaker 2: They got separated by ice in time, and they also

433
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 2: was a slight divergence as you moved north through Oregon

434
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,679
Speaker 2: and Washington away from California. So if I remember that

435
00:24:53,720 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 2: paperwrite that the Californian blacktail are a little closer to deer,

436
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:06,680
Speaker 2: are distinguishable, but there's still Columbia blacktail, so that's one

437
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:11,200
Speaker 2: of the separate subspecies. And then Sica blacktail exists only

438
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:15,160
Speaker 2: from halfway up the British Columbia Coast through Prince Rupert

439
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 2: and then into the islands of southeast Alaska. And then

440
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:22,919
Speaker 2: they'd been translocated in nineteen twenty four up to Kodiak

441
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 2: and several places around southeast Alaska. And so there weren't

442
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:28,120
Speaker 2: any on Kodiak before.

443
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 1: But they're native to Prince William Sound. No, they were

444
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:33,720
Speaker 1: natives to Prince Williams.

445
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,080
Speaker 2: They were translocated to Prince William Sound, they were translocated

446
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:42,960
Speaker 2: to Yakitat. They were all the whole Prince William Sound area,

447
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,479
Speaker 2: and there were several other places they tried to plant

448
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 2: or Sica blacktail that didn't take.

449
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 4: So what was the northernmost if you go back on

450
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 4: I don't know what the hell two hundred years whatever,

451
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,239
Speaker 4: some time stamp two hundred years ago, what was the

452
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 4: northernmost sick of blacktail deer?

453
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 2: It was probably in the Juno areas.

454
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:08,400
Speaker 1: So people I've been telling people the wrong thing.

455
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:13,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, So Gus Davis, the front range of Glacier Bay

456
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,879
Speaker 2: National Park around maybe up towards Skagway and Haynes a

457
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 2: little bit up in there. I'm not sure how far

458
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 2: they the historic range was. I know they were on Admiraltreet,

459
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 2: Chichikov and Baranof Islands and around they were there naturally,

460
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 2: naturally around there.

461
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 1: Why do they look like? So? Why do they have

462
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 1: such a vibe like they kind of got to look

463
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 1: like a little white tail deer.

464
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 2: Kind of thu'se are badass?

465
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 1: No, But what is it like? Why are they Why

466
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 1: are the sick of black tails look different? Why do

467
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 1: they because they you look at them and you look

468
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 1: like that they look like they got some kind of

469
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 1: like a white tail deer influence. But that's not true.

470
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 3: You're comparing them to a Colombian.

471
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, they just like their antler configuration.

472
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 2: I think it's environmental. I think it was that tight

473
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:05,120
Speaker 2: coast range force that they all did. And so overall

474
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,919
Speaker 2: body weights, they're not much different than Colombia and some

475
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:10,959
Speaker 2: of the other stuff. So, like, I did a study

476
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 2: with Alaska Department of Vision game where I waged stuff

477
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 2: with the state over a two year period, and it

478
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 2: was nothing to have a sick of black tail come

479
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 2: in field dressed at one forty five to one sixty five,

480
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,239
Speaker 2: and there were a few big outliers, so I mean

481
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 2: substantial deer. They're just a lot shorter in bulk ears.

482
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:31,879
Speaker 1: Oh, a little squatty little suckers man.

483
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 2: And their tail is not ropey at all. It is

484
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 2: more white veed with a black top and that white

485
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,399
Speaker 2: and they'll use it the flag, just like a white

486
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 2: table flag. Of course it's not quite as dramatic because

487
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:48,360
Speaker 2: it's not as long, and they're just there. I think

488
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,680
Speaker 2: they're the perfect rainforest animal because their antlers are probably

489
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 2: more close in because of that vegetation and stuff they

490
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:56,479
Speaker 2: evolved in.

491
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, so it's not because a white tail deer love

492
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 4: make and it's just like it's convert it's convergent evolution, right,

493
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 4: rather than divert or whatever.

494
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a val geist years ago suggested that

495
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 2: the blacktail were a function of real deer and white

496
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:16,159
Speaker 2: tail breeding or something like that.

497
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and now let me tell you the whole idea

498
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 1: that he had. It was that do you remember this?

499
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 3: You just offered this up, not me. I don't remember that.

500
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 3: I don't remember that.

501
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 1: Like there was some period in time he proposed this.

502
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 4: So Yan Yanni's a big val Geist disciple because Yanni

503
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 4: likes his shirker buck theory.

504
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 1: Val Guys proposed this idea is he's still live.

505
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 4: He passed away that white tails of white tail deer

506
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 4: have been down in like the southeast for millions of years,

507
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 4: southeast US, and that sometimes climatic conditions were such that

508
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 4: white tailed deers spread all the way across the continent.

509
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 1: Okay, and then uh, the middle dried out, and then

510
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 1: you developed mule deer in white tails.

511
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 4: Then something happened and all of a sudden, these white

512
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 4: tails came back out, made love with these mule deer,

513
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 4: and somehow maybe I'm screwing it up, and that produced

514
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 4: like a black tail.

515
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 1: It was elaborate. Yeah, it was elaborate.

516
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 2: You're not far off. I actually had beers with Bell

517
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 2: one time, and he and he and in later years

518
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 2: he chew genetic anals. He said, yeah, I had that wrong.

519
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 1: Oh he did.

520
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 2: Yeah.

521
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 1: Okay, do you know what his shirker buck theory is, Yan,

522
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 1: you'll tell.

523
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 3: You no, you don't know.

524
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 2: No.

525
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 3: I think he said he applied it to any uh servid,

526
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 3: but that that a buck. There are certain bucks that

527
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 3: he deemed as shirkers because they would shirk the responsibility

528
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 3: of mating or running. Uh with the plan with the

529
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 3: long term goal that if they shirked for three, four

530
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 3: five years, that the year that they decided to enter

531
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 3: in their body mass and health and antlers would be

532
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 3: so much bigger than any of the competition that they

533
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:26,479
Speaker 3: could then dominate the breed breeding period and thus spread

534
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 3: their genes across the whole pool.

535
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 1: He's like, I'm gonna lay low for a couple of

536
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 1: years and I come down.

537
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 2: I'm coming down, that's right, and I'm gonna be bigger

538
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 2: and badder than everybody.

539
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 4: It'd be like if you never went to the bar

540
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 4: and you just worked out and did drinking, just did

541
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 4: like skin treatments and worked out and worked on your

542
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 4: hairstyle until you were read.

543
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 1: A lot of books and you were ready. Yeah, and

544
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 1: then one night you go to the.

545
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 3: Bar just witty witty and pumped.

546
00:30:58,480 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 1: It. Just lay waste.

547
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 2: No, he didn't share that with me.

548
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 1: It's insulting to hef a finger.

549
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 2: I know it is. I could see. I could see

550
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 2: it too. I asked him how to pronounce cus or cows?

551
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 3: Oh, real quick on heffel finger, I said, we were somebody,

552
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 3: somebody in our somebody in our camp was using a app

553
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 3: to predict deer movement. Sure, and uh was saying that

554
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 3: this app was so good that it could be within

555
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 3: minutes that when when it said excellent time for movement,

556
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 3: you just look at the watch and just start looking

557
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 3: across the hillside and here they come. I didn't see

558
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 3: it proved to be so good. But I asked Hefflefinger.

559
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 3: I said, because he was talking about these pages of

560
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 3: information that he produces about myths around wildlife. I said,

561
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 3: I said, do you have anything about moon or lunar

562
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,240
Speaker 3: tables affecting deer movement? Do you have a page on that?

563
00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 3: He goes, No, because that would be real short. It

564
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 3: just be word No.

565
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 1: That's one of my favorites.

566
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 4: I mean, I joke about the one that that red

567
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 4: squirrels bite nuts off big squirrels.

568
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 1: But the moon thing is just never. You're never going

569
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 1: to convince people. Otherwise, if Mark Kenyon, you present all

570
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 1: the evidence to Mark Kenyon, like Mark Kenyon's I don't

571
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 1: know if he is now Mark Kenyon tradition was a

572
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 1: big moon guy. And you present all the evidence to Kenyon.

573
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 4: Radio collar data from deer that don't change their groove

574
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 4: because the moon. Deer car collision data that doesn't show

575
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 4: differences because the moon.

576
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 1: Like on harvest data, like on and on and on

577
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 1: and on and then Kenyon, he one day says to me, well,

578
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 1: if it affects it by a minute, science like I'm paraphrasing.

579
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 1: He's like, science might not be able to capture.

580
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 3: Or the capture but they but to me, that minute

581
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 3: matters lot because it could be the last minute of daylight.

582
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 5: There's also the what question are you asking or or

583
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 5: solving four? Because Jim went on to say, he's like,

584
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 5: now if the moon's bright enough, deer may bed in

585
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 5: a more open area or feed in a open area

586
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 5: at night because there's increased light. He's like, but that's

587
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 5: not the moon phase so much as it is a

588
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 5: photo of all taic.

589
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 3: Is what he was saying.

590
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 5: It's like, if it's brighter, they're more active.

591
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, we should do in the whole damn

592
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 1: water up.

593
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 3: We need to get back to gym here, but we

594
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 3: should do a podcast carenn on and bring in Mississippi

595
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 3: Deer Lab. They just recently processed a bunch of collar

596
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 3: data speaking speaking to, you know, because so many people

597
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:03,719
Speaker 3: like these believers, we're just continually emailing in and just

598
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 3: being like, yeah, but you guys aren't asking the right questions.

599
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 3: You guys aren't you know, you're looking at your data,

600
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 3: but you're not aligning the red moon with the blue

601
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 3: moon and the wind and the underfoot and the barometric pressure,

602
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 3: and you need to look at that specific point. They're like,

603
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,319
Speaker 3: all right, why don't you guys all tell us we'll

604
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 3: do a big survey and tell us exactly what we

605
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 3: should look for in our data, and then we'll do

606
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 3: it and we'll look for it. And they did it,

607
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 3: and of course the conclusion is that it doesn't matter.

608
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 1: Can you guess produce this segment.

609
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 2: Segment?

610
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 3: We should do a whole podcast.

611
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 1: We guest produced the whole episode.

612
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 3: Uh sure, okay, I'll help kore In with it. I

613
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:43,359
Speaker 3: don't think she wants to be a take over.

614
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 1: It be liked be like an internship.

615
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 4: You'd be interning at your old job. All right, call

616
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 4: it back in the saddle and then it'll be the episode.

617
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:57,359
Speaker 4: All right, back to black Tail, dere.

618
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 2: Our black tail, he got black tail deer don't even

619
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 2: know there's a moon.

620
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 4: One last thought on the moon thing. For a while,

621
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,840
Speaker 4: what I thought was this. For a while, I thought,

622
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 4: when it's bright out, you see a bunch of deer

623
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,240
Speaker 4: because it's bright out, And maybe that's where it came from,

624
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:17,879
Speaker 4: meaning when it's pitch black, you can't see shit.

625
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:19,839
Speaker 1: When it's moonlit, you're like, oh, look at that deer

626
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 1: right like picture walking out when you're snow on the

627
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 1: ground in a full moon and you're walking out, you're

628
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 1: also aware of all kinds of stuff you didn't know

629
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 1: what was going on.

630
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's no such thing as end up shooting light.

631
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:39,240
Speaker 1: All right. Back to black tail deer. So, uh, Columbia blacktail.

632
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,239
Speaker 4: Let me ask you this question about black tail deer

633
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 4: because this is something we've mused about a fair bit.

634
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:44,479
Speaker 1: I shot.

635
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 4: I've shot one Columbia black tail deer in California. Dude,

636
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 4: I mean it looks like a meal deer. And I've

637
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 4: often talked about just went and talking about the sort

638
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 4: of arbitrary nature of certain classifications of wildlife. I've talked

639
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,439
Speaker 4: about how, according to the Boone and Cocker Club, if

640
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,800
Speaker 4: a if a deer is standing on the west side

641
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 4: of I five in California, he's a blacktail. If he

642
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 4: were to run across I five, he's now a mule deer.

643
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:18,879
Speaker 4: But we have to be able to do a better

644
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 4: job than that nowadays, right, like, like, what is a

645
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 4: Columbia blacktail?

646
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:25,759
Speaker 1: What is a mule deer?

647
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 2: Actually? Vooted Crockett is offering genetic tests that you can

648
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 2: send in your deer and get that answer.

649
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:34,360
Speaker 1: To get the real answer.

650
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 2: And Jim and Emily Latch and Jim Heffelfinger came up

651
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 2: with a percentile graph looking at at at deer samples

652
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 2: that they had, and they cut it off at zero

653
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 2: point nine percent. In other words, if it's over ten

654
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:56,320
Speaker 2: percent mule deer, they're not calling it a Columbia blacktail.

655
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 4: So are they going to go in and start kicking

656
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 4: all kinds of mule? You're out of the Columbia blacktail

657
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 4: record book?

658
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 2: No, because it depends on location. So the record book

659
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 2: is a line that comes down. It doesn't always follow

660
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 2: I five. It takes off on one meridian and it comes

661
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:17,720
Speaker 2: down two through Medford, Oregon and down in there.

662
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 4: But there has to be a bunch of meal deer

663
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 4: in the clumb Like, there's got to be the top end. Yeah,

664
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:25,760
Speaker 4: there's got to be some fakes.

665
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 1: There's got to be people that have records with Columbia

666
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 1: blacktails that they just shot a meal deer that had

667
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:31,439
Speaker 1: to be on the wrong side of the road.

668
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:34,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we as when I grew up in Washington,

669
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 2: we used to purposely go up and we called them

670
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:40,359
Speaker 2: bench leg mulees. They they were these We would shoot

671
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:42,879
Speaker 2: them in the field dress at like two twenty five

672
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 2: to two forty. They were these beautiful black tails, little

673
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 2: tinty racks and stuff like that, with huge bodies, and

674
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:52,759
Speaker 2: we went up into the cascades and targeted them. I

675
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 2: mean that's where we headed because they were much larger deer.

676
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,120
Speaker 1: And you're saying that those were blacktails, that they were.

677
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 2: They were cross Okay, I'm kind of across in there,

678
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:04,399
Speaker 2: got it.

679
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:09,320
Speaker 1: But then a Sika blacktail is like much more distinct.

680
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 2: Right, Cica blacktails.

681
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:12,879
Speaker 1: They don't have any exposure like siic of blacktails, don't

682
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 1: bump up against any other kind of deer. Yes they do,

683
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 1: Oh they do. Okay.

684
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 2: Uh, there's mule deer moving into Skagway. And in nineteen

685
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 2: ninety one I took a photograph of a mule deer

686
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,800
Speaker 2: dough with a fawn inside of of Alaska up by Hyder,

687
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 2: and so there is the possibility of some contact. There's

688
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:41,919
Speaker 2: mulder just outside of Prince Rupert, so they could come

689
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 2: down with a Skina river in there and come out

690
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 2: of the interior. And so I think that's probably the

691
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:50,800
Speaker 2: first batcheteer that made it out to Prince of Wales Island.

692
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,719
Speaker 2: Probably it had some kind of a contact like that,

693
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 2: an interbreeding between mule deer and that isolated population that

694
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:02,320
Speaker 2: became sick a black tail. That's why they identified mulder

695
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:05,360
Speaker 2: in that genome. When they in those three oldest bucks

696
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 2: that we have, you gotta realize they have a really

697
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 2: small sample size and that the researchers say that it's

698
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 2: you know, we're we're basing this on just a handful

699
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:15,920
Speaker 2: of samples, but that all of the older ones were

700
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:19,240
Speaker 2: very distinct that they had a little bit of Muldier

701
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 2: in them.

702
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 1: So is it fair like I know, we're talking about

703
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 1: valgeis theory is sort of like pre genetics theory, But

704
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:30,239
Speaker 1: is it right that that at a time you just

705
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 1: had these little pockets of deer that were bound in

706
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:37,839
Speaker 1: by glaciers and they survived along the Pacific coast.

707
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 2: That's what the idea is that that was kind of

708
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:42,799
Speaker 2: a what they referred to, kind of like a chain

709
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 2: of pearls of habitat that wasn't overridden by ice, that

710
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 2: if it wasn't so severe, if the winner's so severe,

711
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 2: that they and they could have existed there. Got to

712
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 2: realize too, we had much lower sea levels. Our sea

713
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 2: levels were four hundred feet less than they are today.

714
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 2: So there was a lot of land between seventeen thousand

715
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:12,760
Speaker 2: and about thirteen thousand that was exposed on the shelf

716
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 2: out there. So and you know, and so we have

717
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,400
Speaker 2: land ice interactions with the weight of the ice pushing

718
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 2: down on the land and the land rebounding back up,

719
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 2: and so there were some of that stuff going on.

720
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 5: And that's what which means that these deer could have

721
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 5: existed in a landscape that we basically can't see at all, Like, yeah,

722
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,880
Speaker 5: those could have changed dramatically and they could have evolved

723
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 5: to be like their high alpine tundra environment could be

724
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 5: closer to what they evolved in as in flat brushy

725
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 5: in areas versus any any of the stuff that we

726
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 5: hunt them on in the slopes like the rocky, mossy,

727
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 5: dark timber terrain.

728
00:40:56,200 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 2: Absolutely in fact on it looks like this according to

729
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 2: the I've did a lot of coreing with pallinologists and

730
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 2: links and looking at also at the Speliothim's and the

731
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 2: caves hold a record a climate that somewhere at about

732
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:18,800
Speaker 2: eleven to ten thousand years ago, a very dry spruce

733
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:22,399
Speaker 2: and hemlock forest started to appear on the landscape, replacing

734
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:28,880
Speaker 2: a herb dominated tundra that had willows and alders around

735
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 2: stream courses and stuff and in disturbance areas. And you

736
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:35,799
Speaker 2: start seeing that, and that fires were on the landscape

737
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 2: in southeast Alaska till about seven eight hundred years ago,

738
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 2: and then it got Then you start seeing cedar and

739
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:47,960
Speaker 2: scunt cabbage and sphagnum and stuff dominate the pollen record,

740
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 2: and the wetter climate plants starts showing up. So the

741
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 2: rainforest that we all know and love today and hunted

742
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 2: up there as oldly maybe about six thousand years old.

743
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 2: That's relatively young. Those those great big red cedars are

744
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:05,759
Speaker 2: your place there. They may be the fifth generation on

745
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,839
Speaker 2: the landscape kind of thing when you think about that.

746
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 2: So it's it's been a really dynamic vegetation change over

747
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 2: a relatively short period of geo logic time and the

748
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:24,400
Speaker 2: topography those humps that we fish halib it off the

749
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 2: coast on were alpine ridgetops when the sea level was lower.

750
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 2: I love that stuff.

751
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, oh yeah. So what does that mean like

752
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 5: the overall picture of black tail to your conservation? Right, so,

753
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:45,879
Speaker 5: just just as an example, we this would be months ago, right,

754
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:54,880
Speaker 5: we talked about Arizona offering moose lottery draws to hunt moose,

755
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:58,919
Speaker 5: and part of their reasoning is, like moose, aren't they're

756
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 5: a remnant of a population in Arizona. They're they're here

757
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 5: right now, but long term, they're they're not going to

758
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 5: be here more than likely, is one of the arguments

759
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 5: in regards to blacktail deer. When they're in a such

760
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:24,880
Speaker 5: a you know, geologically speaking, like a very rapidly changing ecosystem,

761
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 5: are they adapting well to that ecosystem? Is there anything

762
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 5: that says there were a hell of a lot more

763
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:37,759
Speaker 5: blacktail in when a different environment was more prolific? Kind

764
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:42,400
Speaker 5: of where are we at.

765
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 2: The biggest thing that controls sick of blacktail populations? In

766
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 2: my not that predation doesn't, but it's bad winters, a

767
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 2: bad weather can do more to wipe out a population

768
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 2: two thousand and six and seven on Admiralty Island and

769
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,400
Speaker 2: by whuno we lost like eighty five or ninety percent

770
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,880
Speaker 2: of the deer. I was working with doctor Sophie Gilbert

771
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 2: on her PhD and we had a bad winter on

772
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 2: Prince of Well's Island in twenty eleven. At control like

773
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 2: junction right there were you split either go to Thornbay

774
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:14,840
Speaker 2: or go north. There was five feet of snow made first.

775
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 2: It was horrible. I followed those fawns that year. She

776
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 2: went into the year that went into the winter with

777
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 2: fifty faunds on the collar. We came out with three.

778
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 2: So we basically lost a whole cohort of age class

779
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 2: because of that bad winter. So I think about the

780
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 2: Little Ice Age. The Little Ice Age ended, what three

781
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 2: hundred years ago, there might not as been as many

782
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:46,239
Speaker 2: deer on the landscape. There's maybe more deer now than

783
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:50,239
Speaker 2: there was three hundred years ago. And what was the

784
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 2: winners like coming out of glacier glaciation and as glaciers

785
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 2: were more prominent and stuff. Even though we were in

786
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 2: a wetter climate from six thousand to the present, those

787
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 2: first five thousand years the sick of blacktail may not

788
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 2: have been prolific on the landscape as they are today.

789
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 2: So and I think that timber management, when it was

790
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,400
Speaker 2: super active and there was still a lot of good

791
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:24,400
Speaker 2: habitat left, was creating all that forage. Of course, that

792
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:26,799
Speaker 2: forage wasn't available in a bad winter when those sick

793
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:34,880
Speaker 2: clearcuts get buried. So I have seen in just the

794
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:37,400
Speaker 2: thirty some odd years I've been on Prince of Wales,

795
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:40,919
Speaker 2: I believe the population of sick of blacktail on Prince

796
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:42,879
Speaker 2: of Wales Island is half of what it was when

797
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 2: I got there nineteen ninety. And that's not a result

798
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 2: of predation, in my opinion, it's a result of now

799
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 2: all those older clearcuts have grown up and there's no forage.

800
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:00,440
Speaker 2: It's what we call stem exclusion, that there's no light

801
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 2: gets to the forest floor, it grows mosses and lichens

802
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:03,959
Speaker 2: and mushrooms.

803
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:06,320
Speaker 3: That was going to be a question of mine earlier.

804
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:13,440
Speaker 3: You mentioned you know timber management is generally is it

805
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:16,360
Speaker 3: good for blacktails.

806
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:19,239
Speaker 2: As long as long as you maintain what they need

807
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:21,879
Speaker 2: to survive in a bad winter they need to so

808
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:25,959
Speaker 2: they're an animal of the edge, like all deer and

809
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:28,880
Speaker 2: they'll they bet at their little knobs and stuff like that,

810
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:32,520
Speaker 2: and when it starts getting snowy and stuff, they they

811
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 2: need to be able to access food. So they might

812
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:38,320
Speaker 2: be even on a steep slope with a modest forest

813
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:40,440
Speaker 2: on there, you still got a lot of canopy interception

814
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 2: because of the angle of the way the trees interlock,

815
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 2: and they're getting around fine when the snow depth gets

816
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 2: higher than their briskets. So basically, on a sick of

817
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:53,879
Speaker 2: black tail that's hired in about eighteen inches, they need

818
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:56,680
Speaker 2: to be able to get to someplace to eat. So

819
00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:59,439
Speaker 2: you have to have corridors for them to move, either

820
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 2: latterly or vertically, and you have to have something for

821
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 2: them to go to that's got thermal cover and food.

822
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 2: So the mosaic has been created by pass forcet. The

823
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 2: challenge is going into that habitat and where should we

824
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 2: be doing improvements and stuff like that. And that's what

825
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 2: we're hoping to focus on is where are those where

826
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 2: should we put those improvements on the landscape to do

827
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:30,399
Speaker 2: the biggest bang for the buck, as it was sure

828
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:33,439
Speaker 2: for the deer.

829
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:36,239
Speaker 4: So can you walk through what just as part of

830
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:40,359
Speaker 4: a broader conversation about timber management in harvest. Can you

831
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 4: walk through the sort of life span of a clear

832
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:49,759
Speaker 4: cut only like in terms of deer, because for it,

833
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 4: I've watched them where I've watched them where they're fresh,

834
00:47:57,480 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 4: nothing's really going on a couple of years into it,

835
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 4: they are getting loaded up with deer. And I've been

836
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 4: fortunate now to see one get to the point where

837
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 4: it's there's nothing living in it. So layout like like

838
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 4: what it does as it grows, because a lot of

839
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 4: guys think the answer to more deer is more clearcuts,

840
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 4: and and where does that get complicated?

841
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:23,320
Speaker 2: The food that's produced is incredible. The amount of forage

842
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 2: that's in those clearcuts at about year three, three and

843
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 2: four and five, crazy nuts like the blueberry. So the

844
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 2: primary theory the thing that the deer eats are the vaccinium.

845
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:36,759
Speaker 2: So there your huckleberries and your blueberries, and especially the

846
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:39,239
Speaker 2: red huckleberry. They love the red huckleberry.

847
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 1: And some of the eating the leaves and twigs and stuff.

848
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:44,840
Speaker 2: Right right at the very end of the new growth.

849
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:47,640
Speaker 2: And you've seen that stuff in the clearcuts up there

850
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 2: where it's browsed back to where it's a brush you

851
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 2: can hardly push your legs through. So you start out

852
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:56,600
Speaker 2: we don't have any of that for about two years,

853
00:48:56,800 --> 00:49:00,160
Speaker 2: and then that finally starts really taking over. And then

854
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:05,279
Speaker 2: so you got from year let's say year three to

855
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 2: about year ten or twelve. It's doing pretty good, and

856
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 2: now your trees are getting up to the point that

857
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 2: they're starting to shade out more patches and stuff, but

858
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:23,120
Speaker 2: there's still a lot of forage in between that continues

859
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:28,399
Speaker 2: to close in. So the bigger the trees are, they get,

860
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 2: the less forage there is, and that vegetation so and

861
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 2: you start getting maybe a little more salmonberry and stuff

862
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:38,360
Speaker 2: in there, and depend on depends on the site. It

863
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:40,600
Speaker 2: depends how much alders in there. There's a lot of variables,

864
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:48,439
Speaker 2: but we'll kind of do generalities. Forest Service historically has

865
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 2: gone into the stands. So i'd say by year fifteen

866
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:55,840
Speaker 2: it's starting to get pretty closed in. You're starting to

867
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:59,320
Speaker 2: lose your forage. But of course a clear cut is

868
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:02,319
Speaker 2: not ubiquit. Some of it regenerates really well and some

869
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:06,799
Speaker 2: of it regenerates more poorly, so there's places to eat

870
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:11,040
Speaker 2: out in there. Then a four service goes in. Excuse me,

871
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 2: let's down somewhere between year sixteen and year twenty and

872
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:23,680
Speaker 2: pre commercially thins. So there's so many stems per acre

873
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:27,760
Speaker 2: come back under natural regeneration that they need to drop

874
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 2: that down to a certain spacing because of over competition

875
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:34,719
Speaker 2: by the trees that are growing back. And you've seen this.

876
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:37,439
Speaker 2: They go in and they follow those trees, and your

877
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:40,840
Speaker 2: slash load is enormous. It can be ten twelve feet deep.

878
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:47,520
Speaker 2: It releases, sunlight gets to that and the vegetation responds.

879
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:51,400
Speaker 2: But the deer can't access that under that slash.

880
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:54,520
Speaker 5: And if you're wondering listener, neither can a hunter. It's

881
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:56,000
Speaker 5: not fun to walk through.

882
00:50:56,239 --> 00:50:57,839
Speaker 2: You can't go through that with a D eight cat.

883
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:01,080
Speaker 2: Oh brutal. It is amazing stuff. And besides effect, because

884
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:03,880
Speaker 2: that was commercially thin, you've got all of the usually

885
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:07,440
Speaker 2: about twelve to twenty four inches high, the bases of

886
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 2: the trees that they cut like pungee sticks sticking up

887
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:12,319
Speaker 2: through that stuff. So you fall through that. If you're

888
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 2: up walking on that mess and you fall down, you

889
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:18,799
Speaker 2: gotta watch where you land anyhow, But deer deer don't

890
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:25,880
Speaker 2: access that. The Forest Service has identified certain trails and

891
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:29,880
Speaker 2: left unthin strips through some clearcuts to allow for deer

892
00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 2: movement vertically, in which they use sometimes were if they

893
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 2: were well placed spots the deer continue to use if

894
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:40,359
Speaker 2: they were using them in the original clearcut, they use

895
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:47,919
Speaker 2: them post post commercial thinning. Then thirty years in that's

896
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:53,160
Speaker 2: grown back shut again, and then that continues to get

897
00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 2: less and less and less light to the forest. Four

898
00:51:56,120 --> 00:52:00,399
Speaker 2: that slash starts to rot and break down, and you've

899
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 2: got all of the then it's then it's usually like

900
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:06,120
Speaker 2: a maybe eighteen inches thick with just the bowls of

901
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:08,239
Speaker 2: the trees that were originally fell in there. That might

902
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:11,319
Speaker 2: still but they won't support your weight, but they're they're

903
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:14,160
Speaker 2: up and there. But by that time there's no forage.

904
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:19,919
Speaker 2: And tell that stand gets up one hundred years old

905
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:23,200
Speaker 2: or something like that and starts to naturally select, and

906
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:27,160
Speaker 2: wind starts punching holes through it, and you start to

907
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 2: get some light filtering down in around the sides. You

908
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 2: get light coming in. Maybe that's doing pretty good, but

909
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:37,920
Speaker 2: there's a there's at least a period there of you know,

910
00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:41,560
Speaker 2: between thirty and one hundred, one hundred and fifty years

911
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:45,760
Speaker 2: that there's just not a lot of forage for deer

912
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 2: in that piece unless it's managed, unless you go in

913
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:50,759
Speaker 2: and open that up.

914
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:53,080
Speaker 4: Oh, that doesn't speak well for the deer hunting around

915
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 4: my little spot. No, So I got an eighty ninety

916
00:52:56,719 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 4: year dry spell coming up.

917
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:03,439
Speaker 2: Was actually actually what happened what I did years ago

918
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:06,520
Speaker 2: as I saw this coming. It was the wave of

919
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:09,400
Speaker 2: green that was going to be there, and I stopped

920
00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:16,360
Speaker 2: hunting any managed areas and I started moving out into

921
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:19,440
Speaker 2: the unharvested areas and learning how to hunt that. Yep,

922
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 2: because I knew this was coming. I mean it was.

923
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:23,920
Speaker 2: And so what's happened?

924
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:28,759
Speaker 4: What you wanted to step outside of the clear cut system, right?

925
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:33,880
Speaker 2: And good lord, I have killed hundreds of deer in

926
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:38,640
Speaker 2: harvested areas when when they're productive, and it's crazy. We

927
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:41,000
Speaker 2: used to go into clearcuts in the early nineties and

928
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:43,319
Speaker 2: you'd blow on a deer call and forty deer stand up.

929
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:47,440
Speaker 2: It was. It was totally different than you have today.

930
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:52,680
Speaker 2: And it was there was you virtually went out and

931
00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:55,799
Speaker 2: selected what size of buck you wanted kind of a thing.

932
00:53:57,200 --> 00:54:01,960
Speaker 2: It was totally diveryent thing. Yeah, alpine areas you were

933
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:05,280
Speaker 2: talking about when we were first doing that in the eighties,

934
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:10,920
Speaker 2: or nineties. It was nothing to crawl up onto a

935
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:15,279
Speaker 2: ledge and stop in glass sixty deer and like half

936
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:19,640
Speaker 2: of those would be bucks. Wow, it was an amazing.

937
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:21,880
Speaker 1: With so much of the island that hasn't been logged

938
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:24,600
Speaker 1: or just not not even that island that you happen

939
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:27,480
Speaker 1: to live on, but all through blacktail deer range.

940
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 2: Okay, yep, a.

941
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:33,279
Speaker 4: Lot of it hasn't been logged, big wilderness areas. So

942
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:34,680
Speaker 4: why are blacktail numbers down?

943
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 2: No, they're down in Unit two. They're down where you,

944
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:40,440
Speaker 2: ok and I both have explored.

945
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:43,440
Speaker 1: And you think that is because all those old clearcuts

946
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:44,680
Speaker 1: have entered the shitty period.

947
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:50,640
Speaker 2: That's right. But Unit four, so Admiralty Chichikov barandof Island,

948
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:53,120
Speaker 2: they're doing really good. They haven't had a bad winter

949
00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:56,040
Speaker 2: since twenty eleven that the deer population is going nuts

950
00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:58,319
Speaker 2: and they're starting to get age class on bucks. I'm

951
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:01,400
Speaker 2: seeing four points being shot out of Sitka, which I

952
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:05,720
Speaker 2: never saw before. So they're doing good. Unit three, which

953
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:10,840
Speaker 2: is qu Mitkalf and coopernof Island nineteen seventy two was

954
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:14,400
Speaker 2: a killing winner. There was six feet of snow on

955
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:19,480
Speaker 2: the beach June first, in nineteen seventy two they stopped

956
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:22,759
Speaker 2: the hunts in Unit three for years and years and

957
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:26,759
Speaker 2: years decades and started it back up for a one

958
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:28,719
Speaker 2: week and then a two week period where you were

959
00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:32,680
Speaker 2: allowed to take one buck. Those deer now are really rebounding,

960
00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:37,480
Speaker 2: and there's a camera trap thing going on right now

961
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:40,720
Speaker 2: out of Petersburg and wrangle maybe not wrangle, maybe wrangle

962
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 2: that's being conducted by the state. And the deer numbers

963
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:49,480
Speaker 2: are really up in Unit three. Ketchikan is responding in

964
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:52,719
Speaker 2: all of that area around Ketchikan is responding really well

965
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:55,680
Speaker 2: with deer numbers. So the only place that the deer

966
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:59,440
Speaker 2: numbers are down really is Unit two on Prince of

967
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:02,800
Speaker 2: Weell's Island, and that's not ubiquitous as you move south.

968
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:05,680
Speaker 2: So if you get down south at Craig and you

969
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:08,640
Speaker 2: move down island and stuff in some of those reboter areas,

970
00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:11,719
Speaker 2: that's warmer and they have less effects of snow down

971
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:14,560
Speaker 2: there and stuff, And so there's areas that are doing

972
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:16,960
Speaker 2: a little bit better. Then there's pockets up in the

973
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:19,279
Speaker 2: I kind of hunt mainly the north into Prince of

974
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:22,560
Speaker 2: Wales and Central to North actually hunt a lot in

975
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:26,920
Speaker 2: Central and there's pockets in there that have higher deer numbers,

976
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:29,600
Speaker 2: and so it's not all been cut and it's not

977
00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:33,200
Speaker 2: all gloom and doom, but it's definitely different. Just in

978
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:36,400
Speaker 2: my experiential time being on the island, it's definitely different.

979
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:42,480
Speaker 2: And it has been partially due to the State of

980
00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:45,319
Speaker 2: Alaska having to walk a very fine line there for

981
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:48,319
Speaker 2: a number of years why the wolf was being suggested

982
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:51,480
Speaker 2: to be listed and limiting the amount of trapping that

983
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:55,400
Speaker 2: could go on for wolves. But the bottom line is,

984
00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:57,920
Speaker 2: I believe that we all agree here that if you

985
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:01,040
Speaker 2: have great habitat and your habitat's fun saying really well,

986
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:05,080
Speaker 2: it can take the pressure of predation. And right now

987
00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:09,480
Speaker 2: we have a compromised habitat because of past management. Act

988
00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:12,480
Speaker 2: not so much as past management, it's just right now

989
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:16,480
Speaker 2: we have not transitioned at all to a second growth

990
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:19,400
Speaker 2: harvest economy in the forest.

991
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:23,240
Speaker 1: Tell me what that means.

992
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:26,080
Speaker 2: We are and we're not cutting second growth. We're not cutting,

993
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:31,960
Speaker 2: we're not going into those stands commercially thinning those stands

994
00:57:32,080 --> 00:57:35,480
Speaker 2: or doing patchwork of small clearcuts, or we're just not

995
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:40,360
Speaker 2: cutting those trees. Yet some of them are ready to harvest.

996
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:45,120
Speaker 2: Now there's rules on how you can harvest, but most

997
00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:47,800
Speaker 2: of it's going to reach critical mass in like twenty

998
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:50,120
Speaker 2: thirty and twenty thirty three that there's going to be

999
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:52,600
Speaker 2: a bunch of stuff that could be ready to harvest.

1000
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:57,520
Speaker 2: The problem is there's not the infrastructure to do manufacture

1001
00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:01,360
Speaker 2: of the wood on the island right now. The one

1002
00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:03,600
Speaker 2: large mill that's there really doesn't want to do anything

1003
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:06,600
Speaker 2: with second growth. He's tooled for old growth, and you

1004
00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:09,640
Speaker 2: have to have different saws and different processes and stuff

1005
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:15,280
Speaker 2: like that to be Karen, my wife works on biomass.

1006
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:18,800
Speaker 2: Nobody is there's only one place doing bio bricks on

1007
00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:21,400
Speaker 2: the island. You could be taking all of the slash

1008
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:24,440
Speaker 2: and the non merchantable trees and grinding that up and

1009
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:28,040
Speaker 2: making biofuels out of it BioBrick, biopucks, some kind of

1010
00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:32,320
Speaker 2: log or something like that, or wood pellets. That that

1011
00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:36,200
Speaker 2: infrastructure is not in place. So the only market is

1012
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:42,080
Speaker 2: the export to Asia for the little shit for this

1013
00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:45,600
Speaker 2: young growth that could be harvested, and there's been a

1014
00:58:45,640 --> 00:58:48,400
Speaker 2: couple of young growth sales, but mostly it all was

1015
00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:49,400
Speaker 2: exported to Asia.

1016
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:54,040
Speaker 1: What's the situation, like, go way down to California, what's

1017
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:56,840
Speaker 1: the landscape look like right now. I mean, where do

1018
00:58:56,920 --> 00:58:58,400
Speaker 1: black tail deer stand down there?

1019
00:58:59,840 --> 00:59:02,920
Speaker 2: I am by far no expert in the Columbia blacktail

1020
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:05,800
Speaker 2: in Washington, Oregon, in California. I will tell you from

1021
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:09,880
Speaker 2: what we learned from that summit in Oregon, and I'm

1022
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:11,680
Speaker 2: going to I won't do California because I don't have

1023
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:15,320
Speaker 2: enough knowledge. But what I picked up from the wonderful

1024
00:59:15,320 --> 00:59:17,200
Speaker 2: folks at the Oregon Department of Fish and Game and

1025
00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:19,920
Speaker 2: they took us out on field trips is a lot

1026
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:23,240
Speaker 2: of that as a checkerboard of ownership and Southern Oregon,

1027
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:26,720
Speaker 2: Central Oregon, and stuff within the blacktail home range. And

1028
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:31,480
Speaker 2: so you have timber industry blocks next to state blocks

1029
00:59:32,160 --> 00:59:37,200
Speaker 2: or BLM blocks, and if they want to do a

1030
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:42,479
Speaker 2: habitat enhancement project or something on those, the block next

1031
00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:45,400
Speaker 2: to it is being intensely managed to produce second growth

1032
00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:49,920
Speaker 2: wood for lumber. And so the challenges are in the

1033
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:53,800
Speaker 2: land ownership makeup of the Pacific Northwest, and I'm going

1034
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:56,880
Speaker 2: to venture to guess that that slops over into northern California.

1035
00:59:57,080 --> 01:00:00,280
Speaker 1: Like it makes it hard to have a cohesive plan plan.

1036
01:00:01,680 --> 01:00:04,360
Speaker 2: It also makes it hard when they're trying to get

1037
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:06,800
Speaker 2: of course they say, I guess this is across everything

1038
01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:10,160
Speaker 2: is how do you do population estimates of a rainforest deer?

1039
01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:14,120
Speaker 2: You can't fly over they don't have winter ranges where

1040
01:00:14,120 --> 01:00:20,560
Speaker 2: they congregate and stuff like that. So doing population estimates

1041
01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:24,280
Speaker 2: on the landscape. Down in Oregon, they were using deer

1042
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:29,000
Speaker 2: pellet DNA and dogs to locate the piles of turds

1043
01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:32,320
Speaker 2: out in the clearcuts, and so they had a contractor

1044
01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:34,920
Speaker 2: out there picking up samples, using the dog to find

1045
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:38,280
Speaker 2: for the deer pooped, why it was feeding out there,

1046
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:43,400
Speaker 2: and then doing the population estimate. In southeast Alaska, Todd

1047
01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:48,240
Speaker 2: Brickman developed this. He's a professor at University of at

1048
01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:52,320
Speaker 2: Fairbanks up there, University of Alaska, and he developed a

1049
01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:55,200
Speaker 2: way of doing DNA. So he did transects. He did

1050
01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:59,320
Speaker 2: twelve hundred meters one meter either side. He went and

1051
01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:02,640
Speaker 2: removed all hoop from that, and then he started running

1052
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:07,160
Speaker 2: that transsect and picking up fresh pellets and from that

1053
01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:10,400
Speaker 2: you can get individuals and sex off of that. And

1054
01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:13,200
Speaker 2: after you do that time and time and time again

1055
01:01:13,320 --> 01:01:16,560
Speaker 2: through seasons, you can start to get an idea of

1056
01:01:16,600 --> 01:01:19,920
Speaker 2: how many deer on the landscape, what the demography is

1057
01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:22,560
Speaker 2: whether how many males per female one hundred females and

1058
01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:25,800
Speaker 2: stuff like that, and that's the only way we've been

1059
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:31,240
Speaker 2: able to do population estimates. They've they're trying some right now.

1060
01:01:31,280 --> 01:01:33,200
Speaker 2: The one I was talking about, I think it's a Petersburg.

1061
01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:37,000
Speaker 2: They're trying to use both deer pellet transsects and trail

1062
01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:38,720
Speaker 2: cameras to see if they can come up with a

1063
01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:42,400
Speaker 2: population estimate on the landscape. So it's really hard to

1064
01:01:42,520 --> 01:01:44,840
Speaker 2: estimate just how many deer are out there.

1065
01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:48,840
Speaker 1: What might be what might be blacktails per square mile

1066
01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:50,360
Speaker 1: in southeast Alaska.

1067
01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:52,960
Speaker 2: I've heard things of twelve to twenty.

1068
01:01:54,920 --> 01:01:57,640
Speaker 1: And that's figured man says.

1069
01:01:57,720 --> 01:01:59,760
Speaker 5: That seems positive.

1070
01:01:59,360 --> 01:02:01,640
Speaker 1: Because holy can go a long time and not see one.

1071
01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:08,440
Speaker 2: They're sneaky little guys. Yeah, I you know that. And

1072
01:02:08,880 --> 01:02:11,680
Speaker 2: to twenty might be winter range where they get a

1073
01:02:11,680 --> 01:02:21,600
Speaker 2: little more oppressed and stuff. So there's definitely areas that

1074
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:22,720
Speaker 2: it's not twelve to twenty.

1075
01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:27,120
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, like those areas where within one hundred yards

1076
01:02:27,120 --> 01:02:29,600
Speaker 5: you're crawling as flat as you can on your belly

1077
01:02:30,080 --> 01:02:33,080
Speaker 5: to get under a tree, and then you're also fifteen

1078
01:02:33,080 --> 01:02:36,000
Speaker 5: feet above other trees that are tipped over those areas.

1079
01:02:36,320 --> 01:02:38,360
Speaker 5: It might be a little hard for deer to travel.

1080
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:41,800
Speaker 2: Hard for us to travel. It is what it is

1081
01:02:41,880 --> 01:02:48,160
Speaker 2: probably the most challenging landscape that I have ever traveled.

1082
01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:50,920
Speaker 2: I have a particular place that I like to hunt

1083
01:02:52,520 --> 01:02:56,000
Speaker 2: that's super hard to get to. And when you get

1084
01:02:56,000 --> 01:02:59,560
Speaker 2: off on the beach to gain twelve hundred feet in

1085
01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:02,439
Speaker 2: elevation a mile and a quarter from the beach, I've

1086
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:03,920
Speaker 2: never done it in under six hours.

1087
01:03:04,120 --> 01:03:12,600
Speaker 5: Oh oh, that's misery. So what's optimal or is there

1088
01:03:12,720 --> 01:03:17,680
Speaker 5: an optimal considering? Just like the huge variance of optimal

1089
01:03:17,880 --> 01:03:19,440
Speaker 5: habitat density.

1090
01:03:20,000 --> 01:03:23,040
Speaker 2: I think you're probably in that twelve to fifteen range

1091
01:03:23,640 --> 01:03:27,680
Speaker 2: like that. But they get, I mean they get when

1092
01:03:27,720 --> 01:03:30,480
Speaker 2: you get into even yet today, when you get into

1093
01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:37,400
Speaker 2: really good alpine habitat, you may have twenty five deer

1094
01:03:37,400 --> 01:03:40,400
Speaker 2: per square mile, but that's just a seasonal thing. And

1095
01:03:40,440 --> 01:03:42,880
Speaker 2: then then they then they as the snow comes and

1096
01:03:42,920 --> 01:03:45,320
Speaker 2: fills that up, they start moving down that slope, they

1097
01:03:45,320 --> 01:03:47,400
Speaker 2: get into those crumb Holtz trees where you can never

1098
01:03:47,440 --> 01:03:52,800
Speaker 2: find them, just below the the beautiful vegetation in the alpine.

1099
01:03:54,520 --> 01:03:57,840
Speaker 2: And so I've got I've got a theory that every

1100
01:03:57,880 --> 01:04:02,480
Speaker 2: piece of alpine across the land and every piece of

1101
01:04:02,520 --> 01:04:06,200
Speaker 2: sub outpine, because alpine has kind of defined it's that's

1102
01:04:06,240 --> 01:04:09,120
Speaker 2: that's those true highest peaks. But all those little buskegg

1103
01:04:09,160 --> 01:04:14,320
Speaker 2: ridges have the highest point on that ridge that's got

1104
01:04:14,560 --> 01:04:19,280
Speaker 2: the best forbes and stuff that's around. And I think

1105
01:04:19,320 --> 01:04:25,320
Speaker 2: that the best buck of those watersheds goes to the

1106
01:04:25,360 --> 01:04:28,120
Speaker 2: best forage every year, and that's where you're going to

1107
01:04:28,200 --> 01:04:30,640
Speaker 2: find them. That every ridge has that spot.

1108
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:32,440
Speaker 1: The best buck is on the best.

1109
01:04:32,200 --> 01:04:35,959
Speaker 2: Spot, just like the best bearer goes to the best

1110
01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:39,280
Speaker 2: fishing hole. You know that that best buck knows where

1111
01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:43,200
Speaker 2: that best stuff is. And I that's that's the theory

1112
01:04:43,240 --> 01:04:46,080
Speaker 2: that I apply. And I in fact, I'm not hunting

1113
01:04:46,880 --> 01:04:49,920
Speaker 2: traditional alpine much anymore. I'm kind of hunting those lower

1114
01:04:50,040 --> 01:04:53,200
Speaker 2: ridges and stuff and finding those little pockets that's going

1115
01:04:53,280 --> 01:04:56,240
Speaker 2: to hold two or three really good crackerjack bucks.

1116
01:04:59,160 --> 01:05:02,360
Speaker 4: I want to get back to conservation work. But real quick,

1117
01:05:02,800 --> 01:05:04,880
Speaker 4: what percentage of the bucks you killed you call in

1118
01:05:04,960 --> 01:05:05,680
Speaker 4: and what percent do.

1119
01:05:05,640 --> 01:05:06,400
Speaker 1: You creep up on.

1120
01:05:08,680 --> 01:05:09,320
Speaker 2: Fifty?

1121
01:05:10,720 --> 01:05:12,600
Speaker 1: And how you creeping up on them?

1122
01:05:12,640 --> 01:05:16,760
Speaker 2: Just creeping alpied mostly or dumb luck.

1123
01:05:17,480 --> 01:05:20,560
Speaker 4: No, I'm talking those those low nasty, those low nasty

1124
01:05:20,640 --> 01:05:21,400
Speaker 4: muskeg ridges.

1125
01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:22,200
Speaker 1: How do you hunt.

1126
01:05:21,960 --> 01:05:26,240
Speaker 2: Them, hi cup, put a head up because if it's

1127
01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:29,280
Speaker 2: if it's nice weather, because we're not generally up there

1128
01:05:29,320 --> 01:05:33,760
Speaker 2: when it's really lousy weather. By seven o'clock in the morning,

1129
01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:38,160
Speaker 2: those deer in the timber, you've got between four thirty

1130
01:05:38,200 --> 01:05:40,160
Speaker 2: in the morning and seven o'clock in the morning, that's

1131
01:05:40,200 --> 01:05:43,080
Speaker 2: your window to get success. If you're not there, it's

1132
01:05:43,080 --> 01:05:44,880
Speaker 2: not gonna If you're starting out at the truck at

1133
01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:46,680
Speaker 2: four thirty, you're not going to be there at seven.

1134
01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:50,000
Speaker 2: You've got to be there when they get.

1135
01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:51,640
Speaker 1: Up at four thirty.

1136
01:05:51,760 --> 01:05:54,760
Speaker 2: So they're already out feeding, yep. And what I usually

1137
01:05:54,800 --> 01:05:57,160
Speaker 2: I usually find them they're either bedded right on the

1138
01:05:57,240 --> 01:05:59,400
Speaker 2: edge of the timber, kind of chewing their cut and

1139
01:05:59,440 --> 01:06:01,800
Speaker 2: thinking about the great night they had out there forging

1140
01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:04,680
Speaker 2: on those forbes and are just taking those last few

1141
01:06:04,720 --> 01:06:07,520
Speaker 2: things before the sun gets too warm, and then they

1142
01:06:07,680 --> 01:06:11,560
Speaker 2: drift back into the timber. And so I usually hunt

1143
01:06:11,600 --> 01:06:14,600
Speaker 2: those edges at bedding areas that I know around those

1144
01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:20,600
Speaker 2: upper level muskeg you know, like twenty three to twenty

1145
01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:22,760
Speaker 2: six hundred foot elevation ridges.

1146
01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:26,280
Speaker 3: Do you get an evening period of movement as well?

1147
01:06:27,720 --> 01:06:30,560
Speaker 2: If you have an overcast day yeah.

1148
01:06:30,800 --> 01:06:31,240
Speaker 1: Full moon.

1149
01:06:32,360 --> 01:06:37,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, full moon, which we'd never see, no, because

1150
01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:40,040
Speaker 2: I go up with my tent and I stay there

1151
01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:42,400
Speaker 2: and I glass, and I don't see anything before I

1152
01:06:42,440 --> 01:06:46,320
Speaker 2: go to bed. Interesting and bed then at those times,

1153
01:06:46,400 --> 01:06:48,760
Speaker 2: so our season opens up the twenty fourth of July.

1154
01:06:48,880 --> 01:06:51,560
Speaker 2: So from the twenty fourth of July through August that there,

1155
01:06:51,680 --> 01:06:54,560
Speaker 2: I'm up in those things and hell, it's light till

1156
01:06:54,880 --> 01:06:57,720
Speaker 2: eleven eleven thirty or something like that, and I'm not

1157
01:06:57,720 --> 01:06:59,680
Speaker 2: seeing those deer, and I'm not seeing those deer, and

1158
01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:01,360
Speaker 2: I wait up in the morning and they'll be in

1159
01:07:01,440 --> 01:07:05,120
Speaker 2: the meadows.

1160
01:07:05,160 --> 01:07:08,120
Speaker 3: Interesting because knowing that most of these deer get up

1161
01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:11,480
Speaker 3: every four to six hours, right yep, to do some

1162
01:07:11,520 --> 01:07:14,600
Speaker 3: sort of feeding, moving around, they must be then doing

1163
01:07:14,640 --> 01:07:16,800
Speaker 3: that down in the timber where you've got to be him.

1164
01:07:17,160 --> 01:07:22,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you just I always take something good to read,

1165
01:07:22,480 --> 01:07:25,120
Speaker 2: because you're going to have long days up there. You're

1166
01:07:25,200 --> 01:07:28,920
Speaker 2: just not gonna have There's some places I've found patches

1167
01:07:28,960 --> 01:07:30,880
Speaker 2: of snow and stuff like that where they'll go out

1168
01:07:30,880 --> 01:07:32,840
Speaker 2: and dig holes and they'll bed in the patches of snow.

1169
01:07:33,120 --> 01:07:35,280
Speaker 2: If you've got a snow that persists. But the last

1170
01:07:35,320 --> 01:07:38,280
Speaker 2: few years, since twenty eleven. We haven't had snow in

1171
01:07:38,360 --> 01:07:40,720
Speaker 2: those so it just hasn't been there.

1172
01:07:42,120 --> 01:07:49,000
Speaker 1: Earlier, you talked about starting the black Tail Deer Foundation, right,

1173
01:07:49,680 --> 01:07:50,360
Speaker 1: that's what it's called.

1174
01:07:51,080 --> 01:07:53,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, So actually we actually hadn't got to that.

1175
01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:58,680
Speaker 1: Well, we were going towards that, is that what we'll

1176
01:07:58,680 --> 01:07:59,160
Speaker 1: get to it.

1177
01:07:59,280 --> 01:07:59,480
Speaker 2: Yep.

1178
01:07:59,560 --> 01:08:03,360
Speaker 4: But you'd mentioned it, and you'd said that the Meld

1179
01:08:03,360 --> 01:08:05,320
Speaker 4: Deer Foundation had looked for a long time and they

1180
01:08:05,360 --> 01:08:07,959
Speaker 4: hadn't been doing black tail deer conservation work.

1181
01:08:08,600 --> 01:08:11,200
Speaker 1: If I had to take a guess, like a stab

1182
01:08:11,240 --> 01:08:15,400
Speaker 1: at why I would picture that if you came to

1183
01:08:15,440 --> 01:08:20,080
Speaker 1: me and said, what can we do to improve muld

1184
01:08:20,120 --> 01:08:22,920
Speaker 1: your habitat and meld your numbers? I feel like you'd

1185
01:08:22,920 --> 01:08:28,719
Speaker 1: have a you'd really quickly generate a list of projects, meaning, well,

1186
01:08:28,840 --> 01:08:33,200
Speaker 1: this place, we have a huge amount of highway deer collisions.

1187
01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:37,719
Speaker 1: This place. They like to move from this mountain range

1188
01:08:37,760 --> 01:08:41,240
Speaker 1: down into this sage flat, but there's a bunch of

1189
01:08:41,240 --> 01:08:45,200
Speaker 1: fences and developments that are impeding the movement. So we

1190
01:08:45,240 --> 01:08:45,720
Speaker 1: can do some.

1191
01:08:45,800 --> 01:08:49,240
Speaker 4: Micro work to help the deer in that area or

1192
01:08:49,280 --> 01:08:54,559
Speaker 4: in this little basin. Some well timed predator control would

1193
01:08:54,600 --> 01:08:58,000
Speaker 4: help in May when they're dropping Faunds right, and you

1194
01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:03,040
Speaker 4: can kind of go and do these little distinct projects

1195
01:09:03,040 --> 01:09:08,759
Speaker 4: that improve meldeer in these funnel points or these focal

1196
01:09:08,760 --> 01:09:11,360
Speaker 4: areas of activity. But then you go and you look

1197
01:09:11,400 --> 01:09:18,880
Speaker 4: at this just seemingly never ending sea of timber that's

1198
01:09:19,280 --> 01:09:22,120
Speaker 4: very hard to access, very hard to tell what's going on.

1199
01:09:22,680 --> 01:09:25,280
Speaker 4: And someone says, will generate me like a chore list

1200
01:09:25,720 --> 01:09:26,960
Speaker 4: for how to help blacktails.

1201
01:09:26,960 --> 01:09:31,040
Speaker 1: I feel like you it'd be like out I pray

1202
01:09:31,080 --> 01:09:31,519
Speaker 1: for weather?

1203
01:09:32,000 --> 01:09:32,080
Speaker 3: Do you?

1204
01:09:32,160 --> 01:09:33,840
Speaker 1: I mean, like, like what do you like? Where would

1205
01:09:33,880 --> 01:09:36,400
Speaker 1: you even put money? If you had it right?

1206
01:09:36,960 --> 01:09:38,800
Speaker 4: That would be my explanation of why no one's doing

1207
01:09:38,840 --> 01:09:40,280
Speaker 4: anything on blacktails, because like what do you?

1208
01:09:40,320 --> 01:09:40,680
Speaker 2: How do you?

1209
01:09:40,880 --> 01:09:41,519
Speaker 1: Where do you begin?

1210
01:09:42,479 --> 01:09:44,040
Speaker 2: I think that there was a lot of truth to that.

1211
01:09:44,120 --> 01:09:45,600
Speaker 2: I think you'd hit the nail on the head and

1212
01:09:45,640 --> 01:09:48,200
Speaker 2: you know, and you've got to look at it is

1213
01:09:48,280 --> 01:09:53,200
Speaker 2: absolutely quality of habitat driven if there if there is

1214
01:09:53,280 --> 01:09:55,200
Speaker 2: a lot of places out there, we don't need to

1215
01:09:55,240 --> 01:10:01,360
Speaker 2: do anything. Habitat is just fine. But because of past

1216
01:10:01,400 --> 01:10:05,160
Speaker 2: timber management and in Washington Oregon land ownership changes and stuff.

1217
01:10:05,200 --> 01:10:10,360
Speaker 2: But I'm thinking I'm very southeast specific. We have native

1218
01:10:10,439 --> 01:10:13,759
Speaker 2: lands or a lot of timber harvest on native lands

1219
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:16,000
Speaker 2: and Forest Service lands with a lot of harvest on there,

1220
01:10:16,080 --> 01:10:19,280
Speaker 2: and all of that has grown back into a dense

1221
01:10:19,320 --> 01:10:21,640
Speaker 2: forest with no forage under it. I think we have

1222
01:10:21,960 --> 01:10:26,479
Speaker 2: unlimited opportunity, but where to do it on that? So

1223
01:10:26,520 --> 01:10:30,200
Speaker 2: you have this great canvas, like a paiter stepping up

1224
01:10:30,200 --> 01:10:34,960
Speaker 2: to a blank canvas. You want to pick the best

1225
01:10:35,000 --> 01:10:38,160
Speaker 2: place to do that habitat work that's going to get

1226
01:10:38,200 --> 01:10:43,920
Speaker 2: the best return to those deer. So anything you do

1227
01:10:44,000 --> 01:10:46,320
Speaker 2: in opening it up and creating forage, deer probably going

1228
01:10:46,360 --> 01:10:48,559
Speaker 2: to find it and use it. But there's better places

1229
01:10:48,600 --> 01:10:51,599
Speaker 2: on the landscape to do it. And right now we're

1230
01:10:51,640 --> 01:10:56,880
Speaker 2: in the process of looking at that whole thing called

1231
01:10:56,960 --> 01:11:01,280
Speaker 2: Southeast Alaska past timber harvest of x age and where

1232
01:11:01,280 --> 01:11:04,840
Speaker 2: should we focus the TAGUS National Forces going through a

1233
01:11:04,840 --> 01:11:08,240
Speaker 2: forest plan revision, we're looking at where should we focus

1234
01:11:08,280 --> 01:11:11,120
Speaker 2: our efforts if we only have a small amount of

1235
01:11:11,160 --> 01:11:13,760
Speaker 2: money coming in and we only are going to be

1236
01:11:13,760 --> 01:11:16,920
Speaker 2: able to do so much per year, where should we

1237
01:11:16,960 --> 01:11:21,439
Speaker 2: go first and why? And so that those are the

1238
01:11:21,560 --> 01:11:24,120
Speaker 2: challenges that we're looking at right We actually there's a

1239
01:11:24,120 --> 01:11:27,840
Speaker 2: contract existing out there right now where we've got a

1240
01:11:27,920 --> 01:11:33,960
Speaker 2: gis biology or exercise to take a look at that landscape,

1241
01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:39,640
Speaker 2: taking in light, our taking in slope, aspect, conductivity, with

1242
01:11:39,760 --> 01:11:44,599
Speaker 2: existing habitats that's out there, planned projects, where roads, where

1243
01:11:44,600 --> 01:11:47,720
Speaker 2: can we access now. One of the things that at

1244
01:11:47,800 --> 01:11:49,840
Speaker 2: least the Black Tailed Deer Foundation has looked at too,

1245
01:11:49,960 --> 01:11:52,840
Speaker 2: is if we do a treatment out there, if we

1246
01:11:52,960 --> 01:11:57,439
Speaker 2: create forage for deer and deer get back on landscape,

1247
01:11:57,479 --> 01:12:01,160
Speaker 2: are those deer going to be accessible for hunters? Can

1248
01:12:01,680 --> 01:12:03,600
Speaker 2: are they going to be proximbal to a road or

1249
01:12:03,640 --> 01:12:06,680
Speaker 2: can they walk in easily into that? If you're going

1250
01:12:06,760 --> 01:12:09,120
Speaker 2: to put deer on the landscape, it'd be nice to

1251
01:12:09,160 --> 01:12:12,360
Speaker 2: know that they would also create additional opportunity to put

1252
01:12:12,439 --> 01:12:16,559
Speaker 2: meat in your freezer. The people on the island and

1253
01:12:16,600 --> 01:12:19,760
Speaker 2: I live Prince of Wales, they rely on deer in

1254
01:12:19,760 --> 01:12:22,479
Speaker 2: their freezer. And this is the first time in the

1255
01:12:22,600 --> 01:12:25,720
Speaker 2: last couple of years I'm hearing people that haven't been

1256
01:12:25,840 --> 01:12:29,639
Speaker 2: finding the deer they normally would have to put meat

1257
01:12:29,680 --> 01:12:33,000
Speaker 2: in the freezers. So this is serious stuff, especially as

1258
01:12:33,040 --> 01:12:33,840
Speaker 2: prices go up.

1259
01:12:35,040 --> 01:12:36,599
Speaker 1: So what would be a thing you would do if

1260
01:12:36,600 --> 01:12:38,880
Speaker 1: you identify is this part of the project you're working

1261
01:12:38,880 --> 01:12:40,360
Speaker 1: out where you're running all those cameras.

1262
01:12:41,240 --> 01:12:41,320
Speaker 3: No.

1263
01:12:43,640 --> 01:12:46,360
Speaker 2: The camera thing started out with Sophie Gilverrett and I

1264
01:12:46,400 --> 01:12:48,599
Speaker 2: had an idea. So the Forest Service would go in

1265
01:12:48,600 --> 01:12:52,440
Speaker 2: in the past and they would log most of a drainage,

1266
01:12:52,680 --> 01:12:55,240
Speaker 2: but they would leave where you'd have a huge bunch

1267
01:12:55,280 --> 01:12:57,920
Speaker 2: of creeks coming down in alluvial fans. They would leave

1268
01:12:57,960 --> 01:13:00,680
Speaker 2: those as a leaf strip and between clearcuts. Then they

1269
01:13:00,720 --> 01:13:06,040
Speaker 2: come back and they fell that they did the pre

1270
01:13:06,080 --> 01:13:08,719
Speaker 2: commercial thinning and created the slash that was ten twelve

1271
01:13:08,760 --> 01:13:12,760
Speaker 2: feet deep, and so the only vertical movement that could

1272
01:13:12,760 --> 01:13:15,600
Speaker 2: go on was in those leave strips in between the clearcuts.

1273
01:13:15,680 --> 01:13:20,040
Speaker 2: So the deer were squeezed into narrow slots. So we

1274
01:13:20,120 --> 01:13:24,559
Speaker 2: had control areas and so we had twenty control area

1275
01:13:24,680 --> 01:13:30,800
Speaker 2: cameras and twenty leave strip cameras and we started that

1276
01:13:30,960 --> 01:13:32,759
Speaker 2: and then they went in and they wanted to harvest

1277
01:13:32,760 --> 01:13:34,599
Speaker 2: and there so we had to move. So I moved

1278
01:13:34,600 --> 01:13:37,160
Speaker 2: over to where I'm at now. And so at that time,

1279
01:13:37,200 --> 01:13:40,200
Speaker 2: Sophie doctor Sophi Gilbert was working for the University of

1280
01:13:40,240 --> 01:13:44,800
Speaker 2: Idaho in conjunction with Todd Brinkman up at Fairbanks at

1281
01:13:44,800 --> 01:13:47,599
Speaker 2: the University of Alaska, and we were trying to look

1282
01:13:47,600 --> 01:13:49,400
Speaker 2: at deer movement, and I had an idea and the

1283
01:13:49,439 --> 01:13:52,080
Speaker 2: concept in my brain. My working thesis was as it

1284
01:13:52,080 --> 01:13:54,519
Speaker 2: greened up in the spring, the deer were down in

1285
01:13:54,560 --> 01:13:57,160
Speaker 2: the lower elevations and they slowly moved up as it

1286
01:13:57,200 --> 01:13:59,439
Speaker 2: greened up, and they finally got up to the alpine

1287
01:13:59,439 --> 01:14:01,639
Speaker 2: when the ford came out, and they foraged up there,

1288
01:14:01,680 --> 01:14:03,360
Speaker 2: and then as it started to snow, they moved back

1289
01:14:03,400 --> 01:14:07,360
Speaker 2: down on the landscape. And I started monitoring these cameras

1290
01:14:07,720 --> 01:14:12,240
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen, so I've got twenty six cameras out there

1291
01:14:12,320 --> 01:14:17,720
Speaker 2: right now. That's anything but the truth. The does and

1292
01:14:17,920 --> 01:14:24,080
Speaker 2: fonds above the lower elevation valley floor bed five hundred

1293
01:14:24,120 --> 01:14:27,200
Speaker 2: eight hundred feet above the valley floor, and they come

1294
01:14:27,240 --> 01:14:30,719
Speaker 2: down to feed daily in the dark, usually almost always

1295
01:14:30,760 --> 01:14:34,320
Speaker 2: docturnally and not always for the dose, and they move

1296
01:14:34,439 --> 01:14:36,880
Speaker 2: back up as the sun comes up in the morning.

1297
01:14:38,680 --> 01:14:41,799
Speaker 2: I do see the bucks in velvet as they're developing.

1298
01:14:41,840 --> 01:14:44,559
Speaker 2: Antlers will be milling around down feeding in the bottom,

1299
01:14:44,600 --> 01:14:47,240
Speaker 2: and then they go up, which I'm assuming they go

1300
01:14:47,320 --> 01:14:49,360
Speaker 2: up into that better forage up in the higher elevation,

1301
01:14:49,400 --> 01:14:51,479
Speaker 2: because I don't see them for a long time until

1302
01:14:51,560 --> 01:14:56,360
Speaker 2: rut so I didn't know there was a daily vertical

1303
01:14:56,400 --> 01:14:57,839
Speaker 2: movement of deer on the landscape.

1304
01:14:57,880 --> 01:14:59,800
Speaker 1: They're climbing five eight hundred feet every time.

1305
01:15:00,040 --> 01:15:05,200
Speaker 2: Want to eat, yes, sir, And you could almost set

1306
01:15:05,240 --> 01:15:09,000
Speaker 2: your clock by it. They're so nocturnally driven. And then

1307
01:15:09,920 --> 01:15:15,519
Speaker 2: as it comes into October about on where I have

1308
01:15:15,600 --> 01:15:18,519
Speaker 2: my cameras, this changes. So as you move north in

1309
01:15:18,680 --> 01:15:23,400
Speaker 2: the Tungus Petersbergen wrangle, they run twelve fourteen days before

1310
01:15:23,479 --> 01:15:27,200
Speaker 2: Prince of Wales, so that the load and more higher latitude,

1311
01:15:27,400 --> 01:15:34,519
Speaker 2: little colder stuff rat run a little bit soon by moonface. Anyhow,

1312
01:15:35,120 --> 01:15:37,760
Speaker 2: all of a sudden you start seeing much more fork

1313
01:15:37,800 --> 01:15:41,959
Speaker 2: and horns and spikes, and they're starting to move vertically

1314
01:15:42,160 --> 01:15:46,080
Speaker 2: daily right before right as soon as it's dark, ten

1315
01:15:46,120 --> 01:15:49,120
Speaker 2: minutes after dark, they're coming down. Ten minutes before daylight,

1316
01:15:49,120 --> 01:15:51,680
Speaker 2: they're going back up and now.

1317
01:15:51,680 --> 01:15:54,040
Speaker 1: Down into what the bottoms.

1318
01:15:55,080 --> 01:15:58,800
Speaker 2: The females are feeding down in the thut completely in

1319
01:15:58,840 --> 01:16:01,479
Speaker 2: the valley floor, but in the lower elevations in the valley,

1320
01:16:01,520 --> 01:16:03,519
Speaker 2: and those bucks are coming down that they don't know

1321
01:16:03,520 --> 01:16:05,600
Speaker 2: why they're doing it. They're too young to probably do

1322
01:16:05,720 --> 01:16:09,720
Speaker 2: much of the breeding. I also have found sick of

1323
01:16:09,760 --> 01:16:14,000
Speaker 2: blacktail do not make scrapes, but they have marking trees.

1324
01:16:14,720 --> 01:16:18,880
Speaker 2: They have hemlock overhanging hemlock branches that they mouth and

1325
01:16:18,920 --> 01:16:22,639
Speaker 2: they push this their preorbital gland in there, and there

1326
01:16:22,680 --> 01:16:27,519
Speaker 2: are secretions between their antlers and they urinate under those things.

1327
01:16:27,640 --> 01:16:29,880
Speaker 2: And I have twelve or fourteen bucks coming to the

1328
01:16:29,880 --> 01:16:34,320
Speaker 2: same marking tree this day after day after day. And

1329
01:16:34,360 --> 01:16:39,560
Speaker 2: that progresses until about the twenty fifth or sixth of October,

1330
01:16:39,560 --> 01:16:42,320
Speaker 2: and then the big bucks starts showing up. Bigger bucks

1331
01:16:42,320 --> 01:16:46,040
Speaker 2: starts showing up, the more older age clash bucks come up,

1332
01:16:46,160 --> 01:16:49,559
Speaker 2: and they start showing up down in there. There's a

1333
01:16:49,640 --> 01:16:57,240
Speaker 2: frenzy between about October twenty fifth and about the sixth

1334
01:16:57,360 --> 01:17:01,479
Speaker 2: or seventh of November, waiting for that first dough to

1335
01:17:01,520 --> 01:17:06,439
Speaker 2: come into estras and I have I'll have bucks all

1336
01:17:06,479 --> 01:17:09,720
Speaker 2: over the cameras, I mean, and they start showed up

1337
01:17:09,720 --> 01:17:11,840
Speaker 2: in the day, and I mean, it's just a progression

1338
01:17:11,880 --> 01:17:14,679
Speaker 2: of I've got this all plotted up because I really

1339
01:17:14,800 --> 01:17:20,080
Speaker 2: ateal and weird about this stuff. And boom, the big

1340
01:17:20,120 --> 01:17:23,559
Speaker 2: bucks disappear. Nobody comes to the marking trees anymore. So

1341
01:17:23,680 --> 01:17:26,839
Speaker 2: the first doze have come into heat and they're autumn,

1342
01:17:28,000 --> 01:17:33,719
Speaker 2: and that persists until about the seventeenth or eighteenth of November,

1343
01:17:35,680 --> 01:17:37,840
Speaker 2: and then they bucks start coming back and marking that

1344
01:17:37,920 --> 01:17:44,280
Speaker 2: thing again. And then magic happens. What's that These bucks

1345
01:17:44,280 --> 01:17:48,840
Speaker 2: that you have never seen, these oh by god bucks

1346
01:17:49,439 --> 01:17:52,559
Speaker 2: show up about the seventeenth or eighteenth and November, and

1347
01:17:52,600 --> 01:17:55,120
Speaker 2: they persist on the landscape till about the twenty fifth

1348
01:17:55,200 --> 01:18:00,320
Speaker 2: or twenty sixth, maybe through Thanksgiving, and then they just peer,

1349
01:18:00,439 --> 01:18:06,240
Speaker 2: they vanish and you've hardly seen any of those other bucks.

1350
01:18:06,280 --> 01:18:09,639
Speaker 2: When those that's the guy that has been pumping iron

1351
01:18:09,720 --> 01:18:12,200
Speaker 2: for four years and shows up. Bet, it's just like,

1352
01:18:13,080 --> 01:18:14,760
Speaker 2: whoa where have you been?

1353
01:18:17,360 --> 01:18:20,439
Speaker 1: Okay? Walk walk me through all that. I like it,

1354
01:18:20,640 --> 01:18:24,280
Speaker 1: walk me through all. So so you're saying that there's about.

1355
01:18:24,000 --> 01:18:26,519
Speaker 2: Three year, three days of the year that you should

1356
01:18:26,560 --> 01:18:28,040
Speaker 2: be in the woods.

1357
01:18:28,080 --> 01:18:31,360
Speaker 4: So they're running all around. Okay, you got dose on

1358
01:18:31,400 --> 01:18:33,960
Speaker 4: your cameras. Then a sudden you start seeing bucks showing

1359
01:18:34,040 --> 01:18:35,080
Speaker 4: up because the rut's coming.

1360
01:18:35,240 --> 01:18:35,479
Speaker 2: Yep.

1361
01:18:36,320 --> 01:18:38,320
Speaker 1: Then you see all this buck movement and.

1362
01:18:38,280 --> 01:18:40,040
Speaker 2: The first bucks that show up or the spikes in

1363
01:18:40,040 --> 01:18:40,639
Speaker 2: the forking darts.

1364
01:18:41,520 --> 01:18:43,479
Speaker 1: Then you start then you see a bunch of buck

1365
01:18:43,520 --> 01:18:44,200
Speaker 1: movement that.

1366
01:18:44,320 --> 01:18:46,040
Speaker 2: You have that you see the next age class.

1367
01:18:46,520 --> 01:18:48,559
Speaker 1: You say the two to four years old, their timing

1368
01:18:48,600 --> 01:18:49,240
Speaker 1: is a little better.

1369
01:18:49,680 --> 01:18:53,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're closer to Estris. They have they're not putting

1370
01:18:53,240 --> 01:18:56,960
Speaker 2: that much energy into chasing because they pretty much know

1371
01:18:57,000 --> 01:18:58,599
Speaker 2: when the first doe is going to come into heat

1372
01:18:58,720 --> 01:19:02,200
Speaker 2: cause of the moon fase mm hmm. That we never

1373
01:19:02,240 --> 01:19:07,400
Speaker 2: see and then bang they disappear and they're lockdown.

1374
01:19:07,600 --> 01:19:08,720
Speaker 1: That means they're on a dough.

1375
01:19:09,320 --> 01:19:12,519
Speaker 2: They're actively on a dough. Un Tell she's receptive.

1376
01:19:12,800 --> 01:19:15,280
Speaker 1: That's when I must be always hunting lockdown.

1377
01:19:16,920 --> 01:19:21,200
Speaker 2: And at that at that moment, so that's the key

1378
01:19:21,240 --> 01:19:24,760
Speaker 2: thing for me. At that moment, her head is not

1379
01:19:25,040 --> 01:19:28,599
Speaker 2: switched from save the faun, save the fun. If you're

1380
01:19:28,600 --> 01:19:32,719
Speaker 2: doing a fun and bleat call, he wants to chase

1381
01:19:32,720 --> 01:19:36,479
Speaker 2: her and you call her in, and he's going to

1382
01:19:36,560 --> 01:19:38,920
Speaker 2: come in behind her because he thinks she's just running

1383
01:19:38,920 --> 01:19:44,320
Speaker 2: away from him, or you will have bucks coming to

1384
01:19:44,360 --> 01:19:47,360
Speaker 2: the call. There's no doubt about that. But at that moment,

1385
01:19:47,439 --> 01:19:49,120
Speaker 2: that just before the.

1386
01:19:49,240 --> 01:19:51,960
Speaker 1: Estris date, what date, you know, the.

1387
01:19:52,240 --> 01:19:57,639
Speaker 2: Fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh of November. Okay, these are days

1388
01:19:57,680 --> 01:20:04,320
Speaker 2: I'm never not in the woods. You got to realize

1389
01:20:04,320 --> 01:20:06,479
Speaker 2: this is Jim Bachtel's.

1390
01:20:07,320 --> 01:20:10,920
Speaker 1: Belief system understood. Well, you're here, but you're here for

1391
01:20:10,960 --> 01:20:11,400
Speaker 1: a reason.

1392
01:20:11,680 --> 01:20:15,080
Speaker 2: I'm telling you there are certain days that you don't

1393
01:20:15,360 --> 01:20:18,360
Speaker 2: you're there because magic can happen.

1394
01:20:19,040 --> 01:20:21,360
Speaker 4: Then tell me the next thing that happens. Now, explain

1395
01:20:21,400 --> 01:20:23,360
Speaker 4: to me why happen. Alson all these big bucks.

1396
01:20:23,200 --> 01:20:26,160
Speaker 1: Are running around again for three days.

1397
01:20:26,720 --> 01:20:31,080
Speaker 2: So you have really good two to four year old

1398
01:20:31,120 --> 01:20:36,080
Speaker 2: bucks to the initial breeding, and I think there's up

1399
01:20:36,120 --> 01:20:39,880
Speaker 2: at the higher elevation there's also a population of deer

1400
01:20:39,960 --> 01:20:44,040
Speaker 2: that don't come down, and I think the really big, huge,

1401
01:20:44,160 --> 01:20:47,639
Speaker 2: dominant four year old and better bucks are up there

1402
01:20:47,680 --> 01:20:50,559
Speaker 2: taking care of that. And as soon as they've taken

1403
01:20:50,600 --> 01:20:53,960
Speaker 2: care of everything on the rest of the landscape, they

1404
01:20:54,040 --> 01:20:56,400
Speaker 2: come down to see what was not taken care of

1405
01:20:56,439 --> 01:20:59,759
Speaker 2: at the lower elevations. And that tends to be the seventeenth, eighteenth,

1406
01:20:59,840 --> 01:21:04,599
Speaker 2: nine nineteenth of November through Thanksgiving.

1407
01:21:04,160 --> 01:21:06,440
Speaker 1: And you're in the woods man.

1408
01:21:09,400 --> 01:21:12,120
Speaker 2: And I don't, I don't hardly ever care anything because

1409
01:21:12,160 --> 01:21:15,559
Speaker 2: I am I am absolutely locked into I know that

1410
01:21:15,720 --> 01:21:21,360
Speaker 2: the possibility of me and they actually become less nocturnal

1411
01:21:21,800 --> 01:21:25,200
Speaker 2: and a little more reliable that they're going to be

1412
01:21:25,240 --> 01:21:26,760
Speaker 2: out sometime during the day.

1413
01:21:27,680 --> 01:21:31,400
Speaker 1: Kay, I like it.

1414
01:21:31,520 --> 01:21:32,800
Speaker 2: I have this tattooed on my arm.

1415
01:21:32,880 --> 01:21:40,400
Speaker 6: No, no, it's uh and it's but that transition time

1416
01:21:40,479 --> 01:21:45,120
Speaker 6: between estris no estress right in there, that shifts seasonally.

1417
01:21:45,520 --> 01:21:48,320
Speaker 2: It might be slightly earlier. It might be third, fourth, fifth,

1418
01:21:48,400 --> 01:21:51,759
Speaker 2: sixth of November. It might be eighth, ninet, tenth, eleventh

1419
01:21:51,760 --> 01:21:53,920
Speaker 2: of November. I think I've killed more deer on the

1420
01:21:53,920 --> 01:21:55,519
Speaker 2: eleventh of November than the other day.

1421
01:21:57,200 --> 01:22:03,840
Speaker 4: Kay, Now get back to hyde fixed black tail deer problem.

1422
01:22:04,080 --> 01:22:04,679
Speaker 2: Right for real?

1423
01:22:04,760 --> 01:22:08,280
Speaker 1: When you got huge thousands of square miles, you know

1424
01:22:08,320 --> 01:22:10,719
Speaker 1: what I mean, like, what are you gonna do? Really?

1425
01:22:11,200 --> 01:22:14,040
Speaker 2: So, just roughly on Prince of wale A Ballpark, I think,

1426
01:22:14,120 --> 01:22:15,960
Speaker 2: just on the for service, there's like three hundred and

1427
01:22:16,040 --> 01:22:19,959
Speaker 2: sixty thousand acres of young growth that's at or approaching

1428
01:22:19,960 --> 01:22:23,360
Speaker 2: steam exclusion phase. If you do the math with twelve

1429
01:22:23,439 --> 01:22:25,880
Speaker 2: to twenty deer per spare mile, that's somewhere between six

1430
01:22:25,920 --> 01:22:30,519
Speaker 2: and eight thousand deer that ain't there. Pretty simple math.

1431
01:22:30,560 --> 01:22:33,599
Speaker 1: It won't be for eighty years or yeah.

1432
01:22:33,120 --> 01:22:35,080
Speaker 2: And tell something is done with that second growth. And

1433
01:22:35,160 --> 01:22:39,880
Speaker 2: so we need this is my perfect world. We need

1434
01:22:40,000 --> 01:22:45,360
Speaker 2: a active young growth management industry, and that industry has

1435
01:22:45,400 --> 01:22:47,120
Speaker 2: to be good enough. There there's gonna be some clear

1436
01:22:47,120 --> 01:22:48,760
Speaker 2: cuts made, and they're going to go in and do

1437
01:22:48,840 --> 01:22:52,519
Speaker 2: some industrial real larger scale logging and stuff. But we

1438
01:22:52,640 --> 01:22:56,639
Speaker 2: will have identified where we should I where the stands

1439
01:22:56,640 --> 01:23:00,559
Speaker 2: are that should be approached to a habit that point

1440
01:23:00,560 --> 01:23:03,799
Speaker 2: of view, and make the decisions why those are important

1441
01:23:03,800 --> 01:23:08,000
Speaker 2: for habitat and those won't be intensely managed by clear

1442
01:23:08,040 --> 01:23:10,760
Speaker 2: cutting and stuff like that. We'll go in and do commercial,

1443
01:23:11,360 --> 01:23:15,280
Speaker 2: commercial thinning of those stands, opening that stand up and

1444
01:23:15,320 --> 01:23:17,679
Speaker 2: getting daylight down in there and there, and there would

1445
01:23:17,680 --> 01:23:20,320
Speaker 2: be an industry that would locally manufacture that stuff that

1446
01:23:20,439 --> 01:23:22,479
Speaker 2: the biomass would be used that comes off of it.

1447
01:23:23,800 --> 01:23:25,439
Speaker 1: I don't know how you're going to create, like if

1448
01:23:25,640 --> 01:23:28,280
Speaker 1: it's rare when you say, like for the conservation of

1449
01:23:28,320 --> 01:23:31,120
Speaker 1: a species and proliferation of a species, we need to

1450
01:23:31,400 --> 01:23:33,440
Speaker 1: develop a timber industry.

1451
01:23:34,120 --> 01:23:36,800
Speaker 5: I mean how do like, yeah, how do you incentivize

1452
01:23:38,240 --> 01:23:43,639
Speaker 5: and industry? And what specific like is it the heating

1453
01:23:43,720 --> 01:23:48,559
Speaker 5: fuel would pellet camp chef trigger industry?

1454
01:23:48,800 --> 01:23:49,200
Speaker 2: Right? Like?

1455
01:23:49,680 --> 01:23:53,920
Speaker 5: What what is the market for that growth that that

1456
01:23:54,120 --> 01:23:58,680
Speaker 5: is currently like being ignored waiting for maturation or further maturation.

1457
01:23:59,000 --> 01:24:01,120
Speaker 4: Oh, call, I got share something with you. There's two

1458
01:24:01,160 --> 01:24:06,439
Speaker 4: things that have thwarted Dirt's dad that he cannot make himself. Well,

1459
01:24:06,479 --> 01:24:10,040
Speaker 4: he can make anything himself, making his.

1460
01:24:09,960 --> 01:24:14,120
Speaker 1: Own dip, growing his own dip, making his own dip,

1461
01:24:14,680 --> 01:24:18,000
Speaker 1: and then making his own pellet grilled pellets.

1462
01:24:19,400 --> 01:24:19,920
Speaker 2: There it is.

1463
01:24:20,240 --> 01:24:21,440
Speaker 5: So there's your opportunity.

1464
01:24:22,400 --> 01:24:25,479
Speaker 1: He just can't figure it out. It's killing him.

1465
01:24:25,600 --> 01:24:29,000
Speaker 2: We actually, because my wife works in biomess and I

1466
01:24:29,040 --> 01:24:31,719
Speaker 2: love it. We hate all of our house with wood pellets.

1467
01:24:32,240 --> 01:24:38,439
Speaker 2: But I'm shipping them up from Idaho with all that

1468
01:24:38,520 --> 01:24:42,280
Speaker 2: red alder. I do the red older firewood stuff. So

1469
01:24:42,360 --> 01:24:44,400
Speaker 2: we also have a fire wood stove, and so I

1470
01:24:44,439 --> 01:24:46,680
Speaker 2: cut red alder. In fact, I'll probably be cutting it

1471
01:24:46,680 --> 01:24:48,120
Speaker 2: ip if I can get out in the woods when

1472
01:24:48,120 --> 01:24:51,680
Speaker 2: I get back from this. Okay, but you got a pellet, yeah, yeah,

1473
01:24:51,720 --> 01:24:54,439
Speaker 2: So we have a timber history that's an old growth

1474
01:24:54,439 --> 01:24:57,320
Speaker 2: timber history, and that industry needs to shift it's And

1475
01:24:57,360 --> 01:25:04,559
Speaker 2: we have several small that are actively milling and kill

1476
01:25:04,680 --> 01:25:08,439
Speaker 2: driving lumber, and you can buy second growth lumber on

1477
01:25:08,479 --> 01:25:12,280
Speaker 2: Prince of Will's Island. They just can't take the volume

1478
01:25:12,840 --> 01:25:16,480
Speaker 2: that would be needed to make a difference in deer's lives.

1479
01:25:17,280 --> 01:25:19,640
Speaker 1: And the free market economy is not going to take

1480
01:25:19,680 --> 01:25:20,080
Speaker 1: care of this.

1481
01:25:21,920 --> 01:25:29,200
Speaker 2: I personally think if the if the management strategy shifted

1482
01:25:31,080 --> 01:25:35,360
Speaker 2: from the old growth strategy that occurred is on federal

1483
01:25:35,439 --> 01:25:40,760
Speaker 2: lands to a restoration economy based on we're going to

1484
01:25:40,800 --> 01:25:43,200
Speaker 2: do better for the deer and water and streams and

1485
01:25:43,200 --> 01:25:46,320
Speaker 2: stuff like that, but we're going to also support some

1486
01:25:46,960 --> 01:25:49,920
Speaker 2: large scale timber management. And this is what we're going

1487
01:25:49,960 --> 01:25:51,360
Speaker 2: to be putting up. We're not going to be doing

1488
01:25:51,360 --> 01:25:53,439
Speaker 2: old growth anymore. We're going to be cutting second growth.

1489
01:25:54,479 --> 01:25:58,840
Speaker 2: That would allow people to know that there was a

1490
01:25:58,880 --> 01:26:03,439
Speaker 2: supply of second growth there that would be coming, and

1491
01:26:03,479 --> 01:26:07,840
Speaker 2: then they could look for the capital to incidifize developing

1492
01:26:07,920 --> 01:26:12,639
Speaker 2: the plants to handle that. They that would be both

1493
01:26:12,640 --> 01:26:15,240
Speaker 2: biomass and wood. I mean, there's no you go to

1494
01:26:15,280 --> 01:26:19,400
Speaker 2: home depot, you're not buying old growth doug for two

1495
01:26:19,439 --> 01:26:22,840
Speaker 2: by fours. Those are all second growth. And that's what

1496
01:26:22,880 --> 01:26:27,959
Speaker 2: we have. We just we're still on the initial harvest

1497
01:26:28,560 --> 01:26:32,240
Speaker 2: of trees in southeast Alaska and we have it transitioned

1498
01:26:32,240 --> 01:26:33,200
Speaker 2: over to young growth.

1499
01:26:34,200 --> 01:26:37,760
Speaker 1: God, but that initial harvest is winding down.

1500
01:26:37,880 --> 01:26:42,800
Speaker 2: Man, it is winding down. And do you think they.

1501
01:26:42,680 --> 01:26:43,599
Speaker 1: Ought to quit all together?

1502
01:26:45,000 --> 01:26:48,679
Speaker 2: I hope not. I hope I hope not, because there's

1503
01:26:48,720 --> 01:26:53,599
Speaker 2: a lot of specialty mills that they don't need very

1504
01:26:53,680 --> 01:26:57,800
Speaker 2: much wood a year to produce an incredible product. So,

1505
01:26:58,120 --> 01:27:01,520
Speaker 2: you know, small old growth timbers sales. I hope they continue,

1506
01:27:01,560 --> 01:27:05,759
Speaker 2: and I think sustainably they could, but on large scale

1507
01:27:06,040 --> 01:27:13,000
Speaker 2: timber management that could be steered very focused towards improving

1508
01:27:13,040 --> 01:27:17,040
Speaker 2: deer habitat. We need to change to a young growth industry.

1509
01:27:17,800 --> 01:27:21,720
Speaker 1: And they can do all that young growth on old infrastructure.

1510
01:27:22,120 --> 01:27:27,640
Speaker 2: Yes, there, but so very selfishly. I don't want to

1511
01:27:27,640 --> 01:27:33,160
Speaker 2: take any habitat ear mark dollars and rebuild roads and

1512
01:27:33,200 --> 01:27:37,080
Speaker 2: bridges and log transfer sites at saltwater and stuff like that.

1513
01:27:37,960 --> 01:27:40,000
Speaker 2: I would like to see a viable timber history that

1514
01:27:40,120 --> 01:27:42,679
Speaker 2: keep those roads and bridges and stuff in good working

1515
01:27:42,760 --> 01:27:45,960
Speaker 2: order that we can benefit from for deer. And that's

1516
01:27:45,960 --> 01:27:47,559
Speaker 2: why I think they need to be there together.

1517
01:27:50,000 --> 01:27:53,280
Speaker 1: Is any of the stuff we're seeing, Is any of

1518
01:27:53,280 --> 01:27:57,840
Speaker 1: the stuff we're seeing with the incoming administration and like

1519
01:27:57,920 --> 01:28:00,400
Speaker 1: the tariff wars and all this stuff that might be

1520
01:28:00,439 --> 01:28:04,280
Speaker 1: starting in on Is any of that going to have

1521
01:28:04,320 --> 01:28:07,519
Speaker 1: a positive or negative impact on getting the industry you

1522
01:28:07,560 --> 01:28:10,799
Speaker 1: want established established? Or is this stuff play out too slowly?

1523
01:28:11,479 --> 01:28:13,000
Speaker 2: I think it's going to play out too slowly, and

1524
01:28:13,000 --> 01:28:15,120
Speaker 2: I actually don't know what's going to come out of

1525
01:28:15,160 --> 01:28:21,200
Speaker 2: this because the agencies and funding and people and all

1526
01:28:21,240 --> 01:28:23,760
Speaker 2: that is in flux right now, and we've got to

1527
01:28:23,840 --> 01:28:25,559
Speaker 2: kind of let the dust settle here for a few

1528
01:28:25,560 --> 01:28:28,240
Speaker 2: months to find out where we're at before we could

1529
01:28:28,240 --> 01:28:28,880
Speaker 2: pick back up.

1530
01:28:29,360 --> 01:28:31,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, but some well placed tariff isn't going to all

1531
01:28:31,640 --> 01:28:34,520
Speaker 1: of a sudden spur the industry in the next few years.

1532
01:28:35,200 --> 01:28:37,280
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know what those answers are.

1533
01:28:38,479 --> 01:28:39,880
Speaker 2: I know what I'd like to do on the ground

1534
01:28:39,880 --> 01:28:43,920
Speaker 2: if I had the if I was king, tell me

1535
01:28:44,520 --> 01:28:47,959
Speaker 2: what I would do. I mean, that's habitat work, focused,

1536
01:28:47,960 --> 01:28:50,160
Speaker 2: habitat work in the right places. That there was a

1537
01:28:50,520 --> 01:28:54,640
Speaker 2: a bunch of folks that have put a lot of

1538
01:28:54,680 --> 01:28:57,800
Speaker 2: thought into why we want to improve that place for

1539
01:28:57,880 --> 01:29:01,120
Speaker 2: deer and what would we do there?

1540
01:29:03,479 --> 01:29:05,200
Speaker 4: Do you feel that you're going to be able to

1541
01:29:05,200 --> 01:29:07,240
Speaker 4: start doing this? Like, what does it take to start

1542
01:29:07,280 --> 01:29:09,320
Speaker 4: doing the work we actually.

1543
01:29:09,080 --> 01:29:14,439
Speaker 2: Have right now? We don't know. The Black Tail Deer

1544
01:29:14,439 --> 01:29:18,280
Speaker 2: Foundation and Meal Deer Foundation does not know the status

1545
01:29:18,360 --> 01:29:22,040
Speaker 2: of the funding dollars that we had agreements in place

1546
01:29:22,080 --> 01:29:25,280
Speaker 2: for right now because of the changes that's happened in

1547
01:29:25,360 --> 01:29:27,760
Speaker 2: the last couple of weeks. So we have to let

1548
01:29:27,760 --> 01:29:30,480
Speaker 2: that settle and the people that we were working with

1549
01:29:30,479 --> 01:29:34,360
Speaker 2: withinside the agencies, we hope that we are solid in

1550
01:29:34,400 --> 01:29:36,760
Speaker 2: the agreements that we have and so we actually have

1551
01:29:37,479 --> 01:29:42,760
Speaker 2: four projects in southeast Alaska that will impact close to

1552
01:29:45,000 --> 01:29:50,879
Speaker 2: two thousand acres of wildlife habitat improvements. So we've already

1553
01:29:51,120 --> 01:29:54,680
Speaker 2: started down that road. We were going to do the

1554
01:29:54,760 --> 01:29:58,800
Speaker 2: layout this summer and award the contracts this fall for

1555
01:29:59,360 --> 01:30:01,320
Speaker 2: work in twenty twenty six.

1556
01:30:02,760 --> 01:30:07,200
Speaker 1: But to make a that money might not be there.

1557
01:30:07,400 --> 01:30:12,639
Speaker 2: We don't know. To make a meaningful impact on three

1558
01:30:12,720 --> 01:30:15,400
Speaker 2: hundred and sixty thousand acres of young growth that are

1559
01:30:15,439 --> 01:30:20,559
Speaker 2: sitting there ready that is going to steam exclusion phase,

1560
01:30:21,280 --> 01:30:25,360
Speaker 2: we're going to have to do several thousand acres a

1561
01:30:25,479 --> 01:30:28,840
Speaker 2: year to start making a difference on the deer population.

1562
01:30:31,920 --> 01:30:34,360
Speaker 5: It's a lot of work, it's a lot of cash.

1563
01:30:34,160 --> 01:30:37,280
Speaker 2: A lot of cash, a lot of work. But it

1564
01:30:37,320 --> 01:30:42,720
Speaker 2: can also it can be if the philosophy of management

1565
01:30:42,800 --> 01:30:46,080
Speaker 2: of the forest was such that it was focused on

1566
01:30:46,200 --> 01:30:50,960
Speaker 2: making those changes, we wouldn't be relying on habitat enhancements.

1567
01:30:51,000 --> 01:30:54,320
Speaker 2: Dollars to make that that would be normal timber management

1568
01:30:54,479 --> 01:30:57,800
Speaker 2: practices and focus change in the way they're doing work

1569
01:30:57,840 --> 01:30:59,200
Speaker 2: on the landscape. Yep.

1570
01:30:59,320 --> 01:31:01,719
Speaker 5: And then they just have to sign on to adhering

1571
01:31:01,760 --> 01:31:05,160
Speaker 5: to some areas of exclusion or kind of like they

1572
01:31:05,160 --> 01:31:07,320
Speaker 5: did with like stream bank setbacks and that sort of

1573
01:31:07,320 --> 01:31:08,439
Speaker 5: stuff like that, right.

1574
01:31:08,880 --> 01:31:10,439
Speaker 2: And a lot of that's a lot of the early

1575
01:31:10,520 --> 01:31:15,080
Speaker 2: management virtually again not passing judgment, walked right up the

1576
01:31:15,120 --> 01:31:17,560
Speaker 2: bottom of the streams with cats and removed all the

1577
01:31:17,640 --> 01:31:20,519
Speaker 2: large woody debris. So as we're doing this young growth

1578
01:31:20,560 --> 01:31:24,400
Speaker 2: management strategy, we could provide the logs that the stream

1579
01:31:24,920 --> 01:31:26,960
Speaker 2: actually trout and limited and a few other folks with

1580
01:31:27,000 --> 01:31:29,400
Speaker 2: the forced earth where they're putting them back into streams

1581
01:31:29,720 --> 01:31:31,880
Speaker 2: to get those pools and the riffles and the stuff

1582
01:31:31,920 --> 01:31:34,640
Speaker 2: back in there for salmon habitat and stuff. So we

1583
01:31:34,680 --> 01:31:39,080
Speaker 2: can we can work to do repariod management thinning for deer,

1584
01:31:39,320 --> 01:31:43,759
Speaker 2: but providing the wood for the in stream restoration projects

1585
01:31:43,760 --> 01:31:44,439
Speaker 2: at the same time.

1586
01:31:45,479 --> 01:31:49,320
Speaker 5: And then we got to tack all what about the

1587
01:31:49,439 --> 01:31:51,160
Speaker 5: Washington and Oregon folks.

1588
01:31:51,720 --> 01:31:53,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we've got a group of folks.

1589
01:31:53,520 --> 01:31:54,599
Speaker 5: In California, I guess.

1590
01:31:54,640 --> 01:31:56,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, So we got work. We have a group of

1591
01:31:56,720 --> 01:31:58,880
Speaker 2: folks that are working for the Black del Deer Foundation

1592
01:31:58,880 --> 01:32:02,760
Speaker 2: and Meal Deier Foundations there. I just and I know

1593
01:32:02,840 --> 01:32:04,840
Speaker 2: that there's some grants and some funding coming along. I

1594
01:32:04,880 --> 01:32:06,920
Speaker 2: just don't know what opportunities exist. I don't have a

1595
01:32:06,960 --> 01:32:09,519
Speaker 2: breath of experience and know enough what's going on there.

1596
01:32:10,360 --> 01:32:13,479
Speaker 2: And that would be working with Oregon Department of Fishing Game,

1597
01:32:13,640 --> 01:32:19,080
Speaker 2: Washington Department Fishing Game and stuff, and state and BLM

1598
01:32:19,160 --> 01:32:22,360
Speaker 2: and forest. Yeah, there is forests that are on that

1599
01:32:22,400 --> 01:32:25,120
Speaker 2: side of the highway in the Black Tail world, on

1600
01:32:25,200 --> 01:32:29,439
Speaker 2: the coast range stuff. So I'm sure, I'm more than

1601
01:32:29,479 --> 01:32:33,280
Speaker 2: sure that these same kind of conversations and these same

1602
01:32:33,320 --> 01:32:38,960
Speaker 2: opportunity exists on those landscapes there. It's just again taking

1603
01:32:38,960 --> 01:32:42,360
Speaker 2: a look at where and why, Because there are places

1604
01:32:42,360 --> 01:32:45,320
Speaker 2: that are they're working great. We don't need to go

1605
01:32:45,360 --> 01:32:48,719
Speaker 2: in there and muck it up. There's stands on Prince

1606
01:32:48,720 --> 01:32:52,040
Speaker 2: of Wales Island that have regenerated with a spacing of

1607
01:32:52,120 --> 01:32:55,240
Speaker 2: tree is wide enough that there is forage underneath there

1608
01:32:55,280 --> 01:32:58,439
Speaker 2: and it's not in that sklim exclusion phase. We don't

1609
01:32:58,439 --> 01:32:59,920
Speaker 2: need to be dumping money into that.

1610
01:33:00,040 --> 01:33:06,040
Speaker 1: M Do you feel that all the money do you

1611
01:33:06,040 --> 01:33:08,200
Speaker 1: feel that the habitat is the way to go, or

1612
01:33:08,200 --> 01:33:11,000
Speaker 1: do you think that the all the energy that people

1613
01:33:11,000 --> 01:33:13,400
Speaker 1: spend talking about predation, do.

1614
01:33:13,360 --> 01:33:15,880
Speaker 2: You think it's a waste of energy. No, no, no, no, no,

1615
01:33:15,880 --> 01:33:19,639
Speaker 2: no no. There's a balance between those two. And I

1616
01:33:19,680 --> 01:33:25,240
Speaker 2: totally understand the predation aspects of this, and I've one

1617
01:33:25,280 --> 01:33:28,600
Speaker 2: of the things I've learned from my trail cameras. Yeah,

1618
01:33:28,840 --> 01:33:31,920
Speaker 2: it's when wolves moves into that valley, the deers shut down.

1619
01:33:32,280 --> 01:33:35,320
Speaker 2: The deer don't come down to the lower elevations for

1620
01:33:35,360 --> 01:33:38,559
Speaker 2: two days. When the wolves go through. There is a

1621
01:33:38,640 --> 01:33:43,679
Speaker 2: definite impact on the wolves and the landscape. So there's

1622
01:33:43,720 --> 01:33:45,840
Speaker 2: a lot of people saying, all I go out deer hunting,

1623
01:33:45,880 --> 01:33:47,320
Speaker 2: I don't find any deer and I see all these

1624
01:33:47,360 --> 01:33:49,640
Speaker 2: wolves side. If you think about it, so if we

1625
01:33:49,680 --> 01:33:52,200
Speaker 2: went out hunting together at the time that the deer

1626
01:33:52,360 --> 01:33:55,840
Speaker 2: wolves are in there, the deer are all compressed and

1627
01:33:55,960 --> 01:33:59,479
Speaker 2: these smaller habitat blocks because of all of this older

1628
01:34:00,080 --> 01:34:03,040
Speaker 2: second growth out here, where do we go. We go

1629
01:34:03,080 --> 01:34:05,280
Speaker 2: to where the deer compressed to because we know that's

1630
01:34:05,320 --> 01:34:07,080
Speaker 2: the best place is to hunt, and we go there

1631
01:34:07,600 --> 01:34:10,719
Speaker 2: and we find all these wolf sign Let's say it snowed,

1632
01:34:10,720 --> 01:34:12,479
Speaker 2: and we see all the tracks and everything like that,

1633
01:34:12,520 --> 01:34:13,479
Speaker 2: we don't see any deer.

1634
01:34:14,040 --> 01:34:15,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, no different than seeing a bunch of

1635
01:34:15,880 --> 01:34:17,720
Speaker 5: human boot tracks.

1636
01:34:18,760 --> 01:34:19,240
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1637
01:34:19,280 --> 01:34:22,760
Speaker 2: So our conclusion that we draw is there's nothing but

1638
01:34:22,840 --> 01:34:25,639
Speaker 2: predators on the landscape and there's no deer there, when

1639
01:34:25,680 --> 01:34:29,280
Speaker 2: in fact, there's probably quite a few deer there. They

1640
01:34:29,479 --> 01:34:33,439
Speaker 2: just for that time period of slowly changed where they're

1641
01:34:33,439 --> 01:34:38,599
Speaker 2: at on the landscape. So there's a definite impact. I mean,

1642
01:34:38,640 --> 01:34:41,200
Speaker 2: I've got the graft. The rut was in full swing.

1643
01:34:41,720 --> 01:34:45,000
Speaker 2: I had wolves move into the camera area for a

1644
01:34:45,000 --> 01:34:48,080
Speaker 2: two day period and when I finished plot in my rut.

1645
01:34:48,200 --> 01:34:50,560
Speaker 2: Usually the rut is a big bell curve of activity.

1646
01:34:50,880 --> 01:34:53,479
Speaker 2: It starts up here, it goes crazy nuts. I have

1647
01:34:53,920 --> 01:34:56,880
Speaker 2: fifty bucks a day past my twenty six cameras and

1648
01:34:56,920 --> 01:34:59,200
Speaker 2: it drops off to nothing. There's a little tiny bit

1649
01:34:59,280 --> 01:35:03,360
Speaker 2: for a second run. In the beginning of December, that

1650
01:35:03,520 --> 01:35:07,639
Speaker 2: rent rut split into two bell curves around that time

1651
01:35:07,680 --> 01:35:11,880
Speaker 2: that the wolves were there. It was a dramatic, uh

1652
01:35:12,360 --> 01:35:16,280
Speaker 2: departure from the normal rut activity. It doesn't mean the

1653
01:35:16,360 --> 01:35:19,360
Speaker 2: rut was stopping, but it was stopping where my cameras were.

1654
01:35:20,360 --> 01:35:22,639
Speaker 2: They were still going on up hire. I'm quite sure

1655
01:35:23,200 --> 01:35:25,519
Speaker 2: they just weren't coming down and checking on and the

1656
01:35:25,560 --> 01:35:27,519
Speaker 2: dose weren't coming down and stuff like that. In the

1657
01:35:27,640 --> 01:35:29,160
Speaker 2: lower elevation, they're like, ooh, I'm.

1658
01:35:29,000 --> 01:35:32,480
Speaker 5: Not here, but I imagine there's like a more effective

1659
01:35:32,520 --> 01:35:36,479
Speaker 5: time of year for predator harvest wolf and you guys

1660
01:35:36,479 --> 01:35:39,439
Speaker 5: are So they're right, mountain lions are starting to creep

1661
01:35:39,439 --> 01:35:45,560
Speaker 5: in and.

1662
01:35:42,640 --> 01:35:45,679
Speaker 2: I'll tell you one of the So, yeah, So I've

1663
01:35:45,680 --> 01:35:50,559
Speaker 2: been I've been involved in three studies with telemetry callers

1664
01:35:51,000 --> 01:35:55,679
Speaker 2: where we monitored fawns right at birth through the first

1665
01:35:55,680 --> 01:35:59,760
Speaker 2: two weeks of their lives, and the last one that

1666
01:35:59,760 --> 01:36:06,240
Speaker 2: that Sophie did and it basically agreed not quite fifty percent,

1667
01:36:06,280 --> 01:36:09,920
Speaker 2: but like forty eight percent of all sick of blacktail

1668
01:36:10,000 --> 01:36:12,320
Speaker 2: fawns are taken in the first two weeks of their

1669
01:36:12,400 --> 01:36:16,720
Speaker 2: life by black bear. And what we didn't know is

1670
01:36:16,760 --> 01:36:22,040
Speaker 2: if a fond don't has forty eight percent of all

1671
01:36:22,320 --> 01:36:26,240
Speaker 2: blacktail fawns are taken in the first two weeks of

1672
01:36:26,280 --> 01:36:30,559
Speaker 2: their life by black bear. So okay, that is a lot.

1673
01:36:31,240 --> 01:36:35,400
Speaker 1: So one half of the deer by black bear in

1674
01:36:35,439 --> 01:36:36,679
Speaker 1: two weeks two weeks were gone.

1675
01:36:37,360 --> 01:36:39,680
Speaker 2: And what we found out was which we had no

1676
01:36:39,760 --> 01:36:42,760
Speaker 2: knowledge of, because then we got doze on collar that

1677
01:36:42,920 --> 01:36:46,080
Speaker 2: had twins that were on collars. She would take a

1678
01:36:46,120 --> 01:36:51,360
Speaker 2: geomorphic some kind of a structure like a ridge or

1679
01:36:51,400 --> 01:36:53,759
Speaker 2: a hill or a river or a road or something,

1680
01:36:53,800 --> 01:36:56,280
Speaker 2: and she would put one fawn over here two to

1681
01:36:56,360 --> 01:36:58,479
Speaker 2: three hundred yards away, and one fawn over here two

1682
01:36:58,479 --> 01:37:00,280
Speaker 2: to three hundred yards away, and she would live in

1683
01:37:00,320 --> 01:37:03,920
Speaker 2: between that and nurse both of those for that two weeks.

1684
01:37:04,360 --> 01:37:05,120
Speaker 5: That's amazing.

1685
01:37:05,160 --> 01:37:08,080
Speaker 2: So if she lost one, she lost only one instead

1686
01:37:08,120 --> 01:37:10,679
Speaker 2: of losing both of them. And so there's a natural

1687
01:37:10,760 --> 01:37:12,880
Speaker 2: So there's always been black bear there. The deer have

1688
01:37:12,880 --> 01:37:15,040
Speaker 2: grown up with black bear on the landscape. The deer

1689
01:37:15,120 --> 01:37:18,320
Speaker 2: have changed their habits to reflect the predation that the

1690
01:37:18,320 --> 01:37:21,599
Speaker 2: black bear put on those deer. And when and when

1691
01:37:21,640 --> 01:37:23,960
Speaker 2: there was a lot of black bear before two thousand

1692
01:37:24,000 --> 01:37:28,000
Speaker 2: and four, when we were doing deer darting, there wasn't

1693
01:37:28,040 --> 01:37:31,160
Speaker 2: a day when I was calling to bring doze in

1694
01:37:31,240 --> 01:37:34,240
Speaker 2: to shoot them, to put radio callers on them that

1695
01:37:34,360 --> 01:37:37,320
Speaker 2: I didn't have one to two black bears smoke into me.

1696
01:37:38,920 --> 01:37:40,720
Speaker 2: And I've got it. I've had them get closer than

1697
01:37:40,760 --> 01:37:43,200
Speaker 2: you and I are and had them look past me

1698
01:37:43,640 --> 01:37:47,360
Speaker 2: to see where the fawn was. They were so locked

1699
01:37:47,400 --> 01:37:49,920
Speaker 2: into that sound. They knew I wasn't the faun, and

1700
01:37:49,960 --> 01:37:51,800
Speaker 2: they didn't care about me. They just want to know

1701
01:37:51,800 --> 01:37:53,960
Speaker 2: where that fall. I always thought what it would it

1702
01:37:54,000 --> 01:37:56,080
Speaker 2: be like if you set a fawn decoy out, we'd

1703
01:37:56,120 --> 01:37:58,640
Speaker 2: be would be gone. Oh wow, they just bowl over it.

1704
01:37:59,120 --> 01:38:03,800
Speaker 2: So they're they're super focused on that fond distress call

1705
01:38:05,720 --> 01:38:07,720
Speaker 2: and most of the fonds. What we find is the

1706
01:38:07,720 --> 01:38:12,120
Speaker 2: black bear's feeding. The female has left them. The black

1707
01:38:12,160 --> 01:38:14,519
Speaker 2: bear may not be actively hunting, but it's feeding and

1708
01:38:14,520 --> 01:38:16,599
Speaker 2: digging up skunk cabbage in the spring. You've seen all

1709
01:38:16,600 --> 01:38:18,880
Speaker 2: that stuff and all of a sudden it must get

1710
01:38:18,920 --> 01:38:21,719
Speaker 2: a set or that fad. Here's movement thinks it's moms

1711
01:38:21,760 --> 01:38:23,920
Speaker 2: and lets out one little bleat and you see this

1712
01:38:24,040 --> 01:38:26,240
Speaker 2: acceleration and it's food that's gone.

1713
01:38:29,040 --> 01:38:34,360
Speaker 5: Yeah. So more effective from your based off of your research,

1714
01:38:35,200 --> 01:38:40,519
Speaker 5: more effective to target black bears in the ahead of time,

1715
01:38:40,680 --> 01:38:41,719
Speaker 5: right early spring.

1716
01:38:41,920 --> 01:38:46,120
Speaker 2: Well, so this is what why I get back to

1717
01:38:46,160 --> 01:38:48,160
Speaker 2: the habitat, and that the fact that we have a

1718
01:38:48,200 --> 01:38:54,639
Speaker 2: habitat challenge. Again, this is Jim Bitchetool's world. I moved

1719
01:38:54,640 --> 01:38:59,360
Speaker 2: there in nineteen ninety. We had tons of clearcuts, tons

1720
01:38:59,360 --> 01:39:03,400
Speaker 2: of food, young clearcuts of that two to fifteen year age.

1721
01:39:04,800 --> 01:39:08,559
Speaker 2: We still had all kinds of old growth and we

1722
01:39:08,640 --> 01:39:13,000
Speaker 2: had good conductivity even though the landscape was fractured, lots

1723
01:39:13,000 --> 01:39:17,040
Speaker 2: of deer, unbelievable number of bears. I can't even fathom

1724
01:39:17,120 --> 01:39:19,839
Speaker 2: to tell you how many bears were there. And wolves

1725
01:39:19,840 --> 01:39:23,760
Speaker 2: were numerous. I saw wolves weekly, I saw black I

1726
01:39:23,800 --> 01:39:27,920
Speaker 2: would see my third day in the woods. I still

1727
01:39:27,960 --> 01:39:30,759
Speaker 2: have my journal entry. I saw twenty seven black bears

1728
01:39:30,760 --> 01:39:33,000
Speaker 2: working in the woods the first the third day I

1729
01:39:33,040 --> 01:39:35,040
Speaker 2: was on the Prince of Wales Island. I mean, that's

1730
01:39:35,080 --> 01:39:39,320
Speaker 2: the kind of numbers you used to see. It became

1731
01:39:39,400 --> 01:39:42,280
Speaker 2: really popular to hunt black bear, and if you look

1732
01:39:42,320 --> 01:39:45,240
Speaker 2: at the graph, it went from seventy bears per year

1733
01:39:45,320 --> 01:39:48,360
Speaker 2: to almost five hundred bears per year coming out of

1734
01:39:48,479 --> 01:39:48,960
Speaker 2: Unit two.

1735
01:39:49,640 --> 01:39:50,559
Speaker 5: Harvested bears.

1736
01:39:50,600 --> 01:39:55,519
Speaker 2: Harvested bears. Wow, that was like the nod residents could

1737
01:39:55,560 --> 01:39:55,880
Speaker 2: take too.

1738
01:39:55,960 --> 01:39:58,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, the whole air of like bringing in truckloads of

1739
01:39:58,920 --> 01:40:01,800
Speaker 1: dog food and hunting stations off the road system, and

1740
01:40:02,640 --> 01:40:03,519
Speaker 1: that crashed in.

1741
01:40:03,479 --> 01:40:07,640
Speaker 2: Two thousand and five and the state started managing it,

1742
01:40:07,720 --> 01:40:11,000
Speaker 2: first with a registration and now with a draw and

1743
01:40:11,040 --> 01:40:13,439
Speaker 2: they're actually, I think they're doing an incredible job. I'm

1744
01:40:13,479 --> 01:40:16,160
Speaker 2: starting to see those older age class bears. So the

1745
01:40:16,200 --> 01:40:18,519
Speaker 2: first thing we lost was the big bores. Then we

1746
01:40:18,640 --> 01:40:21,519
Speaker 2: lost the older females. And when we started to losing

1747
01:40:21,560 --> 01:40:24,360
Speaker 2: the older females, you start losing the knowledge of where

1748
01:40:24,360 --> 01:40:26,360
Speaker 2: to dead, how to did, where to fish, and all

1749
01:40:26,400 --> 01:40:28,640
Speaker 2: that kind of stuff, And so there was an impact.

1750
01:40:29,640 --> 01:40:35,000
Speaker 2: Wolves I think has stayed relatively constant in that three

1751
01:40:35,040 --> 01:40:38,880
Speaker 2: hundred to three hundred and fifty estimate population in there.

1752
01:40:39,960 --> 01:40:43,280
Speaker 2: We've had another twenty timber sales since I got there

1753
01:40:43,479 --> 01:40:48,080
Speaker 2: on federal lands, and this young young growth that was

1754
01:40:48,120 --> 01:40:51,360
Speaker 2: all this forage has grown up to be nothing. So

1755
01:40:51,560 --> 01:40:54,920
Speaker 2: now we have hardly any bears, but we're starting to

1756
01:40:54,920 --> 01:40:57,600
Speaker 2: see them come back. We still have wolves on the landscape.

1757
01:40:58,000 --> 01:40:59,760
Speaker 2: Why aren't we And we haven't had a killing winter

1758
01:40:59,800 --> 01:41:02,120
Speaker 2: since twenty eleven. Why aren't we seeing tons of deer?

1759
01:41:02,720 --> 01:41:04,920
Speaker 2: And I think the reason is is because we're losing

1760
01:41:04,920 --> 01:41:08,479
Speaker 2: the habitat on the other end. And that's my take

1761
01:41:08,520 --> 01:41:12,479
Speaker 2: on the landscape there that you know that the wolves

1762
01:41:12,479 --> 01:41:15,519
Speaker 2: are still taken about the same number of deer that

1763
01:41:15,560 --> 01:41:19,200
Speaker 2: they always did, and the bears are too, But there's

1764
01:41:19,280 --> 01:41:22,840
Speaker 2: less bears, but the deer used to be able to

1765
01:41:23,280 --> 01:41:26,000
Speaker 2: When there was tons of bears, the deer could still absorb,

1766
01:41:26,080 --> 01:41:31,519
Speaker 2: losing fifty percent back. So we see a reduced deer number,

1767
01:41:32,000 --> 01:41:35,400
Speaker 2: not so much because of predation, because the predation is

1768
01:41:35,439 --> 01:41:38,200
Speaker 2: probably roughly the same as just a lower number, But

1769
01:41:38,280 --> 01:41:40,360
Speaker 2: it's the fact that we just lost those deer that

1770
01:41:40,439 --> 01:41:44,840
Speaker 2: aren't in those older stands of timber anymore where they

1771
01:41:44,920 --> 01:41:50,519
Speaker 2: used to be. It doesn't bode well for us and

1772
01:41:50,640 --> 01:41:52,800
Speaker 2: Prince of Welles for the next few years. I don't know.

1773
01:41:52,800 --> 01:41:54,000
Speaker 2: I don't know how to tell you that me the

1774
01:41:54,040 --> 01:42:00,760
Speaker 2: next eighty years, I'll be gone. You might still, but

1775
01:42:00,880 --> 01:42:06,439
Speaker 2: it's it's you know. So I moved to southeast Alaska,

1776
01:42:06,439 --> 01:42:09,760
Speaker 2: and I grew up hunting Columbia blacktail in Washington State,

1777
01:42:09,840 --> 01:42:11,280
Speaker 2: and I moved up there, and I just fell in

1778
01:42:11,320 --> 01:42:13,439
Speaker 2: love with these deer, and I realized that nobody knows

1779
01:42:13,439 --> 01:42:16,160
Speaker 2: anything about these deer like they were. There's you know,

1780
01:42:16,200 --> 01:42:18,439
Speaker 2: there's tons of stuff written on white tail, and there's

1781
01:42:18,520 --> 01:42:20,360
Speaker 2: quite a bit of stuff written on mule deer and stuff,

1782
01:42:20,400 --> 01:42:22,840
Speaker 2: but like nobody knows anything about that. And it was

1783
01:42:22,880 --> 01:42:27,599
Speaker 2: one of the reasons why in two thousand and nine,

1784
01:42:27,800 --> 01:42:31,640
Speaker 2: I bought the urlsic of blacktail dot org and in

1785
01:42:31,680 --> 01:42:36,240
Speaker 2: about twenty fifth thirteen, Sophie and I and Todd created

1786
01:42:36,240 --> 01:42:38,240
Speaker 2: that web page Sick of black Tail dot org the

1787
01:42:38,280 --> 01:42:41,360
Speaker 2: Sick of Blacktail Deer Coalition. I wanted a place somebody

1788
01:42:41,360 --> 01:42:44,240
Speaker 2: could go find out information about sick of blacktail. So

1789
01:42:44,240 --> 01:42:47,639
Speaker 2: it's got all the stuff on translocations, it's got all

1790
01:42:47,680 --> 01:42:52,599
Speaker 2: the stuff in there about all all of the written things,

1791
01:42:52,680 --> 01:42:57,880
Speaker 2: both peer reviewed publications and not peer reviewed publications, and

1792
01:42:57,880 --> 01:42:59,720
Speaker 2: stuff has been written. It's a place you could go

1793
01:43:00,280 --> 01:43:04,439
Speaker 2: find out about sick of blacktail. And I'm excited to

1794
01:43:04,479 --> 01:43:09,559
Speaker 2: see this the emphasis on blacktail throughout their region, both

1795
01:43:09,600 --> 01:43:12,439
Speaker 2: Columbia and stuff through the Blacktail Deer Foundation.

1796
01:43:12,560 --> 01:43:15,320
Speaker 4: Are you going to roll sick of Blacktail dot org

1797
01:43:15,479 --> 01:43:17,920
Speaker 4: into black Tail Deer Foundation.

1798
01:43:19,960 --> 01:43:20,680
Speaker 1: What you're looking for?

1799
01:43:22,080 --> 01:43:26,040
Speaker 2: Wait, no, we might put it up on the page.

1800
01:43:26,080 --> 01:43:29,760
Speaker 2: But if you look at the Blacktail Deer on the

1801
01:43:29,800 --> 01:43:33,559
Speaker 2: Blacktails Foundation thing, that's what Sophie and I have on

1802
01:43:33,600 --> 01:43:34,160
Speaker 2: our webpage.

1803
01:43:34,479 --> 01:43:36,839
Speaker 3: Okay, we said they were the same photo.

1804
01:43:37,120 --> 01:43:40,960
Speaker 2: Now that know that drawing the characterization right up there.

1805
01:43:41,160 --> 01:43:45,280
Speaker 2: That that right there, that's on our web page. They

1806
01:43:45,280 --> 01:43:47,680
Speaker 2: needed something and Sophie and I agreed that that was

1807
01:43:47,720 --> 01:43:50,599
Speaker 2: a good thing to allow them to use that so.

1808
01:43:50,640 --> 01:43:53,640
Speaker 1: Well, the black Tail Deer Foundation sits separate outside of

1809
01:43:53,680 --> 01:43:55,400
Speaker 1: Meal Deer Foundation, or is it just like a wing

1810
01:43:55,439 --> 01:43:56,439
Speaker 1: of the Meal Deer Foundation.

1811
01:43:56,479 --> 01:44:00,439
Speaker 2: It's with them, kind of like the difference between Peasants

1812
01:44:00,479 --> 01:44:02,479
Speaker 2: Forever and Quail Forever kind of thing.

1813
01:44:03,040 --> 01:44:04,960
Speaker 1: And so who's the director?

1814
01:44:06,000 --> 01:44:08,720
Speaker 2: Greg Shean came on as director. I don't know if

1815
01:44:08,760 --> 01:44:12,439
Speaker 2: you know Greg. He's awesome. He wasn't there very long.

1816
01:44:12,640 --> 01:44:14,920
Speaker 2: And Steve Belinda called me one morning and said, you

1817
01:44:14,960 --> 01:44:18,040
Speaker 2: need to get on a call. Steve's got an idea.

1818
01:44:18,240 --> 01:44:20,040
Speaker 2: And Steve says, what do you think if we created

1819
01:44:20,080 --> 01:44:24,080
Speaker 2: the Blacktail Deer Foundation? And I said, I said three

1820
01:44:24,160 --> 01:44:26,280
Speaker 2: years ago. I told Steve I would give him two

1821
01:44:26,320 --> 01:44:28,640
Speaker 2: and a half to three years on the emphasis that

1822
01:44:28,680 --> 01:44:31,080
Speaker 2: the Meal Deer Foundation was putting on Blacktail. And I

1823
01:44:31,120 --> 01:44:33,160
Speaker 2: was kind of getting ready to retire again, and I said,

1824
01:44:33,240 --> 01:44:36,519
Speaker 2: I'll give you three more years. I'm all in, I

1825
01:44:36,560 --> 01:44:38,120
Speaker 2: want to see this thing be successful.

1826
01:44:38,320 --> 01:44:40,720
Speaker 1: So what will your role with black Tail Deer Foundation be?

1827
01:44:41,400 --> 01:44:45,599
Speaker 2: To try to be an advocate for deer in Alaska?

1828
01:44:45,640 --> 01:44:51,160
Speaker 2: Dear habitat work in Alaska and the work that we

1829
01:44:51,200 --> 01:44:56,200
Speaker 2: could do. We have a full time wildlife biology trained

1830
01:44:56,640 --> 01:44:59,920
Speaker 2: employee for the black Tail Deer Foundation, Lizard Judis Cu

1831
01:45:00,120 --> 01:45:03,760
Speaker 2: Leonora Scott's awesome. Scott has been working up with the

1832
01:45:03,840 --> 01:45:06,640
Speaker 2: Laska Department Efficient Game to do the modeling thing to

1833
01:45:06,680 --> 01:45:09,960
Speaker 2: answer the where so they're doing across all of the

1834
01:45:09,960 --> 01:45:14,960
Speaker 2: Tongas native and non native lands? Where where where should

1835
01:45:14,960 --> 01:45:17,160
Speaker 2: we if we get dollars to do things, or if

1836
01:45:17,200 --> 01:45:21,200
Speaker 2: the agencies and the other landowners focus on a habitat

1837
01:45:21,240 --> 01:45:24,320
Speaker 2: restoration and a second growth industry, where should we be

1838
01:45:24,400 --> 01:45:26,400
Speaker 2: putting our efforts in work? And so they're working on

1839
01:45:26,439 --> 01:45:30,920
Speaker 2: that right now. And so I'm helping to develop chapters

1840
01:45:31,000 --> 01:45:34,639
Speaker 2: and be a spokesperson basically for the Black Tail Deer

1841
01:45:34,680 --> 01:45:38,920
Speaker 2: Foundation and to educate people on what why why why

1842
01:45:39,000 --> 01:45:43,880
Speaker 2: do we care? I love these dear. I just every

1843
01:45:43,920 --> 01:45:46,080
Speaker 2: day I go to the woods, I try to go

1844
01:45:46,120 --> 01:45:48,240
Speaker 2: out and learn some and I think every day I

1845
01:45:48,280 --> 01:45:49,320
Speaker 2: get schooled.

1846
01:45:52,160 --> 01:45:52,960
Speaker 5: Which keeps you learning?

1847
01:45:53,040 --> 01:45:53,200
Speaker 3: Right?

1848
01:45:53,280 --> 01:45:55,760
Speaker 2: No, it is you know, like I like wow, I

1849
01:45:55,800 --> 01:45:58,920
Speaker 2: wouldn't have thought that, you know. And every once in

1850
01:45:58,920 --> 01:46:02,760
Speaker 2: a while I the licking branch thing. There's not a

1851
01:46:02,800 --> 01:46:06,240
Speaker 2: lot of I went out in the snow to start

1852
01:46:06,320 --> 01:46:09,080
Speaker 2: gpsing trails because if you go out there, there's a

1853
01:46:09,200 --> 01:46:12,840
Speaker 2: hundred trails, hundreds of trails. You go out in the

1854
01:46:12,880 --> 01:46:13,559
Speaker 2: snow and.

1855
01:46:13,560 --> 01:46:15,240
Speaker 1: I found you put a camera on one of those

1856
01:46:15,320 --> 01:46:17,720
Speaker 1: trails and there's a trail there, But it doesn't necessarily

1857
01:46:17,760 --> 01:46:19,240
Speaker 1: mean something's going to come down that trail.

1858
01:46:19,400 --> 01:46:23,599
Speaker 2: But go out in the snow and GPS the one

1859
01:46:23,720 --> 01:46:26,800
Speaker 2: or two trails that are really ran and go to

1860
01:46:26,920 --> 01:46:30,000
Speaker 2: and you'll see they go like this, and they'll come

1861
01:46:30,000 --> 01:46:34,519
Speaker 2: to a node. Put your camera at that node. That's

1862
01:46:34,560 --> 01:46:38,000
Speaker 2: where three or four of the really used trails come together.

1863
01:46:38,560 --> 01:46:39,880
Speaker 1: They come together in the high spots.

1864
01:46:40,040 --> 01:46:43,840
Speaker 2: No, they come together. They they just across the landscape.

1865
01:46:44,120 --> 01:46:48,280
Speaker 2: The deer trails will kind of mingle and sometimes they intersect.

1866
01:46:48,520 --> 01:46:49,719
Speaker 2: Oh and when they.

1867
01:46:49,800 --> 01:46:52,439
Speaker 4: You're not saying they intersect at a particular type of feature.

1868
01:46:52,560 --> 01:46:55,599
Speaker 2: Just where they intersect, and at that intersect, I'll almost

1869
01:46:55,640 --> 01:46:59,000
Speaker 2: guarantee you there's a licking branch somewhere.

1870
01:46:58,680 --> 01:47:01,439
Speaker 5: Right there, saying it really surprises me.

1871
01:47:01,560 --> 01:47:03,320
Speaker 1: Sorry, did you ever sit the licking branch?

1872
01:47:04,040 --> 01:47:04,280
Speaker 2: Huh?

1873
01:47:04,320 --> 01:47:05,840
Speaker 1: Do you ever? Do you ever set up and just

1874
01:47:05,880 --> 01:47:07,240
Speaker 1: sit on the licking branch? Oh?

1875
01:47:07,320 --> 01:47:11,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you go to I got a YouTube channel

1876
01:47:11,680 --> 01:47:14,799
Speaker 2: and if you go there, I have tons of videos

1877
01:47:14,840 --> 01:47:17,920
Speaker 2: I've put together of licking branch as. You can watch

1878
01:47:17,960 --> 01:47:20,360
Speaker 2: buck after buck after buck come to these things.

1879
01:47:22,439 --> 01:47:25,360
Speaker 5: Have you done like mock scrapes and mock licking branch.

1880
01:47:25,400 --> 01:47:28,080
Speaker 5: Have you set up a totally synthetic one yet?

1881
01:47:28,360 --> 01:47:32,960
Speaker 2: No, I've thought about it. Well. First off, it would

1882
01:47:32,960 --> 01:47:36,400
Speaker 2: have to be a synthetic lure because all natural lures

1883
01:47:36,479 --> 01:47:39,519
Speaker 2: are forbidden in Alaska. That's been outlawed because they're so

1884
01:47:39,600 --> 01:47:43,679
Speaker 2: worried about CWD getting there, and uh so they're they're

1885
01:47:43,680 --> 01:47:49,400
Speaker 2: gonna have to. It'll have to be something a deer attracted.

1886
01:47:49,520 --> 01:47:52,280
Speaker 2: I know several people that choosed. Uh. I can't remember

1887
01:47:52,280 --> 01:47:54,200
Speaker 2: the name of the company that does the rope hemp

1888
01:47:54,280 --> 01:47:57,000
Speaker 2: rope and you you soak it in some kind of

1889
01:47:57,000 --> 01:48:01,280
Speaker 2: a lure and I can't remember it. Yew, they put

1890
01:48:01,280 --> 01:48:03,599
Speaker 2: that up and our bucks just beat the pee out

1891
01:48:03,640 --> 01:48:05,840
Speaker 2: of there. The problem is is we have so much

1892
01:48:05,960 --> 01:48:07,680
Speaker 2: rain you've got to put looo around it about every

1893
01:48:07,720 --> 01:48:08,200
Speaker 2: two days.

1894
01:48:08,840 --> 01:48:11,120
Speaker 4: Do you ever hear of a thing called buckman juice? No,

1895
01:48:12,520 --> 01:48:16,400
Speaker 4: the urine from a man named Doug Durren. No, it

1896
01:48:16,520 --> 01:48:18,800
Speaker 4: might be worth checking out. I could try to get

1897
01:48:18,840 --> 01:48:20,760
Speaker 4: you a bottle of buck Man juice.

1898
01:48:21,520 --> 01:48:27,160
Speaker 2: I can tell you that I twenty by thirteen. I

1899
01:48:27,200 --> 01:48:30,479
Speaker 2: had a really beautiful four by four with eyeguards coming

1900
01:48:30,520 --> 01:48:34,639
Speaker 2: through one muskeg between two and four for three days

1901
01:48:34,920 --> 01:48:36,760
Speaker 2: and I hung a tree stand. And I'm not a

1902
01:48:36,800 --> 01:48:40,880
Speaker 2: patient man. I hate being sitting there. But I went

1903
01:48:40,920 --> 01:48:43,439
Speaker 2: in and hung a tree stand. And I got out

1904
01:48:43,439 --> 01:48:45,080
Speaker 2: of that tree stand because I had to backpack it

1905
01:48:45,120 --> 01:48:48,040
Speaker 2: in three quarters of a mile and it got cold.

1906
01:48:48,160 --> 01:48:50,439
Speaker 2: I got cold because I sweated and went After I

1907
01:48:50,479 --> 01:48:52,240
Speaker 2: hung it, I got down out of there, and the

1908
01:48:52,320 --> 01:48:55,519
Speaker 2: next day my trail camera eighteen minutes after I got down,

1909
01:48:55,600 --> 01:48:58,600
Speaker 2: he pushed three do's right by by stand. So the

1910
01:48:58,640 --> 01:49:00,240
Speaker 2: next day I got it there and I sat from

1911
01:49:00,280 --> 01:49:03,040
Speaker 2: seven thirty in the morning until two thirty in the afternoon,

1912
01:49:03,120 --> 01:49:05,519
Speaker 2: and this dough came out. Well. I had peede out

1913
01:49:05,560 --> 01:49:09,080
Speaker 2: of the sand, and she came over and she smelled

1914
01:49:09,120 --> 01:49:11,960
Speaker 2: every place I had peed, and I had dropped the

1915
01:49:11,960 --> 01:49:14,479
Speaker 2: little rope that I had pulled the muzzle atter up by,

1916
01:49:14,479 --> 01:49:17,360
Speaker 2: and she moothed that and stuff, and then she just

1917
01:49:17,400 --> 01:49:20,439
Speaker 2: slowly walked. She followed my tracks and smelled me and

1918
01:49:20,479 --> 01:49:23,280
Speaker 2: the cross I could see. She was exactly following my tracks.

1919
01:49:24,240 --> 01:49:28,000
Speaker 2: We don't have any predators that come from above, so

1920
01:49:28,040 --> 01:49:30,120
Speaker 2: she never looked up. I was only twelve feet above her,

1921
01:49:30,479 --> 01:49:32,960
Speaker 2: but she never looked up. And she took off, and

1922
01:49:33,000 --> 01:49:35,320
Speaker 2: I cocked the gun and swung over to the opening.

1923
01:49:35,360 --> 01:49:38,719
Speaker 2: She come out, and he comes smoking into that opening,

1924
01:49:38,840 --> 01:49:39,760
Speaker 2: and I got that buck.

1925
01:49:40,160 --> 01:49:41,479
Speaker 1: Whoa all right?

1926
01:49:41,920 --> 01:49:45,479
Speaker 2: In fact, I'm not this good. It was an accident.

1927
01:49:46,439 --> 01:49:49,360
Speaker 2: But my camera was set on a three shot burst

1928
01:49:49,479 --> 01:49:52,400
Speaker 2: and he ran by the camera and it set it off.

1929
01:49:52,720 --> 01:49:55,320
Speaker 2: My mouth growned him to a stop, and I didn't know.

1930
01:49:55,360 --> 01:49:57,920
Speaker 2: You could actually see me in the tree stand. And

1931
01:49:58,120 --> 01:49:59,800
Speaker 2: next thing you see is a big puff of smoke.

1932
01:50:00,040 --> 01:50:02,280
Speaker 2: He's dying on the edge of the picture. It happened

1933
01:50:02,280 --> 01:50:03,640
Speaker 2: that fast, that.

1934
01:50:04,040 --> 01:50:05,519
Speaker 5: Fast, unreal.

1935
01:50:06,200 --> 01:50:08,760
Speaker 2: Now, we were told that she did not she was

1936
01:50:08,960 --> 01:50:12,000
Speaker 2: not wigged out by where I had peeded it all.

1937
01:50:12,400 --> 01:50:16,760
Speaker 2: Just absolutely did not care. She was curious, really curious,

1938
01:50:17,920 --> 01:50:21,559
Speaker 2: but had not She wasn't wigged out by that at all. Jim.

1939
01:50:21,640 --> 01:50:23,400
Speaker 5: We were told that you end up shooting a lot

1940
01:50:23,439 --> 01:50:27,679
Speaker 5: of bucks head on in the chest, and then you

1941
01:50:27,960 --> 01:50:29,080
Speaker 5: what's your aiming.

1942
01:50:28,760 --> 01:50:34,920
Speaker 2: Spot, the bottom center, the bottom throat patch, and you

1943
01:50:35,040 --> 01:50:41,040
Speaker 2: recovered the round ball against the rear leg bone. Hopefully

1944
01:50:41,080 --> 01:50:42,320
Speaker 2: you'll find this out someday.

1945
01:50:42,400 --> 01:50:44,320
Speaker 3: I hope so too. I hope so too.

1946
01:50:45,920 --> 01:50:49,000
Speaker 5: But why how does it end up head on so frequently?

1947
01:50:49,200 --> 01:50:50,360
Speaker 2: Because they're coming to the call?

1948
01:50:50,640 --> 01:50:54,000
Speaker 5: Oh god, yeah, they're coming to the call.

1949
01:50:54,240 --> 01:50:55,720
Speaker 2: The other thing is I try to set up and

1950
01:50:55,760 --> 01:50:58,760
Speaker 2: blind call all the time, and if he's sneaking in,

1951
01:50:58,840 --> 01:51:02,200
Speaker 2: what I do is I tried set up so if

1952
01:51:02,200 --> 01:51:04,360
Speaker 2: there's a ridge over here or a travel way that

1953
01:51:04,439 --> 01:51:07,000
Speaker 2: I think they might be using, I set up here

1954
01:51:07,840 --> 01:51:10,120
Speaker 2: knowing that the wind is blowing across me this way

1955
01:51:10,280 --> 01:51:12,439
Speaker 2: with an opening on this side, so that he's going

1956
01:51:12,520 --> 01:51:14,439
Speaker 2: to come and he's going to try to circle behind me.

1957
01:51:15,640 --> 01:51:17,519
Speaker 1: You catch him crossing that opening, and I catch.

1958
01:51:17,400 --> 01:51:20,639
Speaker 2: Him crossing that opening, And that's a lot of times.

1959
01:51:20,680 --> 01:51:22,559
Speaker 2: They'll still turn and look at you. But you can

1960
01:51:22,600 --> 01:51:26,880
Speaker 2: get them broadside if you're just don't man. You like

1961
01:51:26,920 --> 01:51:30,840
Speaker 2: when I start calling, I don't move because they're locked on.

1962
01:51:30,960 --> 01:51:34,120
Speaker 2: They know the minute you blow that call from five, six,

1963
01:51:34,200 --> 01:51:36,599
Speaker 2: seven hundred yards away, they know they know the stump

1964
01:51:36,640 --> 01:51:41,719
Speaker 2: you're sitting by, that that that I've watched them across

1965
01:51:41,920 --> 01:51:47,920
Speaker 2: large open fast BUSKEG systems come at full tilt run

1966
01:51:48,120 --> 01:51:54,719
Speaker 2: across there to that spot. I'm quite sure because I'm

1967
01:51:55,160 --> 01:51:57,639
Speaker 2: What I'm trying to do now is be a little

1968
01:51:57,640 --> 01:52:00,679
Speaker 2: more patient. I find that big bucks come in between

1969
01:52:00,680 --> 01:52:05,759
Speaker 2: thirty and forty five minutes. What and I'm not that patient?

1970
01:52:05,960 --> 01:52:08,320
Speaker 2: I called for ten or fifteen, and I want to

1971
01:52:08,320 --> 01:52:10,719
Speaker 2: go over there. I might do something different. I'm sure

1972
01:52:11,400 --> 01:52:13,760
Speaker 2: that there has been hundreds of bucks come to where

1973
01:52:13,800 --> 01:52:15,680
Speaker 2: I had just called it. I'm no longer there, I'm

1974
01:52:15,680 --> 01:52:19,320
Speaker 2: off hunting something else. Or what I'll do is I frequently.

1975
01:52:19,240 --> 01:52:21,320
Speaker 1: When you set up to call, how long you sitting there?

1976
01:52:22,040 --> 01:52:24,920
Speaker 2: You should be there between thirty five and forty minutes.

1977
01:52:27,560 --> 01:52:29,479
Speaker 1: God give you a little bit of math that Mercer

1978
01:52:29,560 --> 01:52:32,240
Speaker 1: Laing is a man named Mercer Lawing gave me but

1979
01:52:32,960 --> 01:52:38,920
Speaker 1: so similar situation. Call him Bobcats, Predator, call him Bobcats.

1980
01:52:40,280 --> 01:52:43,400
Speaker 1: Bobcats will sometimes show up like forty minutes later. So

1981
01:52:43,479 --> 01:52:45,639
Speaker 1: most guys that call Kyle still sip for fifteen minutes.

1982
01:52:45,680 --> 01:52:47,679
Speaker 1: That's kind of the rule of thumb, right, fifteen minutes,

1983
01:52:47,680 --> 01:52:51,840
Speaker 1: everybody gets bored and you want to leave. But a

1984
01:52:51,880 --> 01:52:55,400
Speaker 1: Bobcat might show up at forty minutes. And I was

1985
01:52:55,560 --> 01:52:58,639
Speaker 1: talking to my friend mercer who calls tons of bobcats

1986
01:52:58,680 --> 01:53:01,240
Speaker 1: and used to do it professionally. He's like, yeah, but

1987
01:53:01,280 --> 01:53:04,880
Speaker 1: I can hunt twice as many spots at twenty. Sure,

1988
01:53:05,080 --> 01:53:07,360
Speaker 1: some will show up at forty. Most show up before,

1989
01:53:08,479 --> 01:53:10,960
Speaker 1: like most show up before. So I'd rather hit twice

1990
01:53:11,000 --> 01:53:13,080
Speaker 1: as many spots than wait around for the one that

1991
01:53:13,240 --> 01:53:17,720
Speaker 1: might show up at forty, like a calculated loss.

1992
01:53:18,320 --> 01:53:20,160
Speaker 4: So you're saying, when you run it, you don't sit

1993
01:53:20,200 --> 01:53:21,960
Speaker 4: there forty minutes, but you should.

1994
01:53:22,280 --> 01:53:25,200
Speaker 2: I should. You can if I time myself and make

1995
01:53:25,240 --> 01:53:32,000
Speaker 2: it happen. I have tended to kill better bucks at

1996
01:53:32,000 --> 01:53:35,760
Speaker 2: the thirty to forty five minute period. That is a

1997
01:53:35,840 --> 01:53:38,920
Speaker 2: long which means Steve, I look around, be like, man,

1998
01:53:40,479 --> 01:53:42,880
Speaker 2: and you and I both know sometimes you call in

1999
01:53:42,920 --> 01:53:43,320
Speaker 2: there poop.

2000
01:53:43,720 --> 01:53:45,320
Speaker 1: That's what I'm looking for. The one that just is

2001
01:53:45,320 --> 01:53:46,400
Speaker 1: all of a sudden in your face.

2002
01:53:46,560 --> 01:53:50,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we love that. That's exhilarating. Man, my god,

2003
01:53:50,160 --> 01:53:52,040
Speaker 2: you're talking to an animal and all of a sudden,

2004
01:53:52,040 --> 01:53:55,280
Speaker 2: it's like smack in your face, like at five feet

2005
01:53:55,520 --> 01:53:59,240
Speaker 2: it's like crazy stuff. Later, yeah, and.

2006
01:53:59,200 --> 01:54:01,120
Speaker 1: You're calling it, what like how often you call him?

2007
01:54:02,160 --> 01:54:06,240
Speaker 2: I usually start out with a really aggressive uh call sequence.

2008
01:54:06,720 --> 01:54:09,240
Speaker 2: I'm much louder, and I've been told that I'm too loud.

2009
01:54:11,200 --> 01:54:14,400
Speaker 2: Oh no, that's half the volume. I really crack cut it.

2010
01:54:15,080 --> 01:54:18,320
Speaker 3: But this is all the classic black tail deer whistle

2011
01:54:18,400 --> 01:54:21,720
Speaker 3: that's sold in Alaska. That's what you're using. No, Oh no,

2012
01:54:21,840 --> 01:54:22,120
Speaker 3: I don't know.

2013
01:54:22,200 --> 01:54:23,320
Speaker 2: Can I use brand name? Sure?

2014
01:54:23,439 --> 01:54:25,360
Speaker 5: Oh, you don't have to give away any secrets.

2015
01:54:25,439 --> 01:54:27,519
Speaker 2: No, there's no secrets. You know the cow talk that

2016
01:54:28,000 --> 01:54:30,600
Speaker 2: came out of years ago, the first cow call that

2017
01:54:30,680 --> 01:54:33,880
Speaker 2: ever was made. Oh yeah, rubber band, the plastic thing.

2018
01:54:34,120 --> 01:54:36,360
Speaker 2: That's what I've killed all my deer off of. I

2019
01:54:36,520 --> 01:54:39,080
Speaker 2: tighten that rubber band and it's got you use it

2020
01:54:39,200 --> 01:54:41,040
Speaker 2: like the thoro axe in the back and could change

2021
01:54:41,040 --> 01:54:43,400
Speaker 2: my pitch. I start out really quiet, just make.

2022
01:54:43,240 --> 01:54:44,000
Speaker 1: The noise of your mouth.

2023
01:54:44,520 --> 01:54:50,000
Speaker 2: Okay, I cut it. I started out really really quiet,

2024
01:54:50,400 --> 01:54:52,760
Speaker 2: and then I crescendoed the louder and louder and louder.

2025
01:54:53,680 --> 01:54:54,920
Speaker 2: I'm reaching out for I.

2026
01:54:54,920 --> 01:54:58,800
Speaker 1: Know what you just used crescendo right, I've always I've

2027
01:54:58,880 --> 01:55:00,840
Speaker 1: used it wrong my whole life. It's like I thought

2028
01:55:00,840 --> 01:55:02,040
Speaker 1: the crescendo was the top.

2029
01:55:02,320 --> 01:55:03,200
Speaker 5: No, it's the build.

2030
01:55:03,360 --> 01:55:05,760
Speaker 1: The build. Someone told me that one time, and my

2031
01:55:05,760 --> 01:55:09,360
Speaker 1: whole life I said when it reached a crescendo, meaning

2032
01:55:09,440 --> 01:55:13,360
Speaker 1: the cap the apex like, no, the crescendos is the climb.

2033
01:55:13,840 --> 01:55:14,480
Speaker 1: Good jobject.

2034
01:55:14,600 --> 01:55:18,560
Speaker 2: It's like throwing a pebble into a pond. Your your

2035
01:55:18,680 --> 01:55:21,040
Speaker 2: sound waves go out. You never know what's going to

2036
01:55:21,080 --> 01:55:23,640
Speaker 2: how it's going to come back to you. And so

2037
01:55:23,800 --> 01:55:28,520
Speaker 2: I I imagine that. I know in my mind every

2038
01:55:28,560 --> 01:55:32,080
Speaker 2: time I call some deer hears it. They may not

2039
01:55:32,280 --> 01:55:35,400
Speaker 2: choose to come, but they are hearing it. And so

2040
01:55:35,560 --> 01:55:38,480
Speaker 2: I start with a really loud bang. I try to

2041
01:55:38,520 --> 01:55:42,720
Speaker 2: get them to stand up okay and start Now. They

2042
01:55:42,760 --> 01:55:45,520
Speaker 2: may not complete it, but I try to get them

2043
01:55:45,520 --> 01:55:47,640
Speaker 2: to do that, and so I start that. Then I

2044
01:55:47,680 --> 01:55:50,200
Speaker 2: go back down and I build and build. And then

2045
01:55:50,680 --> 01:55:53,760
Speaker 2: if I'm doing a rattling sequence, I start out super

2046
01:55:53,880 --> 01:55:58,560
Speaker 2: loud and a roar grunt that they're are deer are

2047
01:55:58,840 --> 01:56:01,840
Speaker 2: when they're aggravating and they do the roar gud. You'll

2048
01:56:01,840 --> 01:56:04,880
Speaker 2: hear that from two hundred yards away. It is nuts

2049
01:56:04,960 --> 01:56:05,840
Speaker 2: how loud they are.

2050
01:56:06,040 --> 01:56:09,600
Speaker 3: This is getting me excited for a huh yeah for sure.

2051
01:56:10,440 --> 01:56:15,240
Speaker 1: Yeah go on. Anyhow, Now that rattling stuff is interesting.

2052
01:56:16,600 --> 01:56:19,320
Speaker 2: The other part of that is when if a buck

2053
01:56:19,400 --> 01:56:21,960
Speaker 2: responds to a rattling sequence and you decide not to

2054
01:56:22,000 --> 01:56:27,800
Speaker 2: shoot him, keep it going. Numerable times, I've had a

2055
01:56:27,880 --> 01:56:32,160
Speaker 2: smaller buck come in first and mister Holy Jesus walk

2056
01:56:32,200 --> 01:56:36,440
Speaker 2: in later, like, oh my god. It's just like five

2057
01:56:36,520 --> 01:56:39,360
Speaker 2: minutes later. You'll see these really big antler chips out

2058
01:56:39,400 --> 01:56:42,240
Speaker 2: in the brush moved around, and a lot of people

2059
01:56:42,280 --> 01:56:44,320
Speaker 2: will bang kill that buck and go over and deal that.

2060
01:56:44,360 --> 01:56:47,120
Speaker 2: And they didn't realize that there was a smoker buck

2061
01:56:47,200 --> 01:56:48,919
Speaker 2: coming in.

2062
01:56:49,200 --> 01:56:49,560
Speaker 1: Hmmm.

2063
01:56:51,240 --> 01:56:56,000
Speaker 2: I had. I had Sophie with another biologist there and

2064
01:56:56,040 --> 01:56:58,520
Speaker 2: I called it a beautiful three point and Sophie took

2065
01:56:58,520 --> 01:57:00,840
Speaker 2: that three point and she jumped up. I said no, no, no, no,

2066
01:57:00,920 --> 01:57:02,720
Speaker 2: let's keep calling. And they were like, no, let's take

2067
01:57:02,760 --> 01:57:04,760
Speaker 2: pictures and they ran out across the muskeke and I'd

2068
01:57:04,760 --> 01:57:09,440
Speaker 2: like to shoot. So I went over there and I

2069
01:57:09,440 --> 01:57:12,360
Speaker 2: I stepped away from my gun, took my backpack off,

2070
01:57:12,400 --> 01:57:14,640
Speaker 2: and I laid my muzzloader down and I went over

2071
01:57:14,680 --> 01:57:18,840
Speaker 2: and I grabbed their camera and I hear snort and

2072
01:57:18,880 --> 01:57:20,840
Speaker 2: I turned around and there's this four by four with

2073
01:57:20,960 --> 01:57:24,400
Speaker 2: h guards twenty yards away, steam just rolling off it.

2074
01:57:25,560 --> 01:57:27,440
Speaker 2: And I looked at my gun, which was about ten

2075
01:57:27,480 --> 01:57:29,680
Speaker 2: feet away in that buck and he took off and

2076
01:57:29,680 --> 01:57:31,480
Speaker 2: he ran down the edge of the muskeke, and I

2077
01:57:31,520 --> 01:57:34,000
Speaker 2: grabbed my mutherloader and I rolled out into the muskeke,

2078
01:57:34,040 --> 01:57:36,480
Speaker 2: and he went down sixty yards and went in and stopped.

2079
01:57:36,720 --> 01:57:39,160
Speaker 2: But he stopped with the sweet spot between two trees.

2080
01:57:39,560 --> 01:57:45,080
Speaker 2: And he ought not to have done that. But I mean,

2081
01:57:45,120 --> 01:57:47,800
Speaker 2: there was a classic example of him. He was hot

2082
01:57:47,840 --> 01:57:49,960
Speaker 2: and he was looking for a fight, and he came

2083
01:57:50,000 --> 01:57:53,240
Speaker 2: in just virtually smoking.

2084
01:57:53,760 --> 01:57:58,000
Speaker 3: A little off topic. But sixty yards blacktail broadside. Is

2085
01:57:58,040 --> 01:58:00,480
Speaker 3: that an offhand shot for you? Or do you look

2086
01:58:00,480 --> 01:58:01,800
Speaker 3: for a rest in that situation.

2087
01:58:01,840 --> 01:58:05,520
Speaker 2: I almost always try to take a knee. I tried.

2088
01:58:06,080 --> 01:58:07,960
Speaker 2: I don't care if they're five yards, I try to.

2089
01:58:09,480 --> 01:58:12,360
Speaker 2: I can do it. I've done it. I mean seventy yards,

2090
01:58:12,440 --> 01:58:15,200
Speaker 2: eighty yards. Last two years ago, I killed a bucket

2091
01:58:15,240 --> 01:58:16,920
Speaker 2: they olpine. I had none of the rest on it.

2092
01:58:17,000 --> 01:58:20,360
Speaker 2: I was like, suck it up, buttercup, and I aimed

2093
01:58:20,400 --> 01:58:23,480
Speaker 2: and just did a perfect shot out him. But I

2094
01:58:23,560 --> 01:58:27,640
Speaker 2: am small abisball. I tell you you already got one shot.

2095
01:58:27,720 --> 01:58:30,720
Speaker 2: You're not going to reload, and any kind of lifetime

2096
01:58:30,800 --> 01:58:32,960
Speaker 2: of that deer running off or anything else, you've got

2097
01:58:32,960 --> 01:58:35,960
Speaker 2: to make that one shot. That's the challenge. That's why

2098
01:58:36,000 --> 01:58:38,280
Speaker 2: I went to Muslim and eventually it's just to challenge

2099
01:58:38,320 --> 01:58:40,080
Speaker 2: myself to make that one child.

2100
01:58:40,960 --> 01:58:42,680
Speaker 1: You've been married to hell a long time, haven't you?

2101
01:58:43,440 --> 01:58:45,840
Speaker 2: Twenty six years? On the fourteenth.

2102
01:58:46,080 --> 01:58:48,400
Speaker 1: I think I asked you, like your marriage advice. I

2103
01:58:48,440 --> 01:58:52,040
Speaker 1: can't remember what you told me. I did ask your

2104
01:58:52,040 --> 01:58:54,800
Speaker 1: marriage advice. Did you tell me that you always treat

2105
01:58:54,840 --> 01:58:56,080
Speaker 1: your wife like a princess?

2106
01:58:56,280 --> 01:58:56,520
Speaker 2: No?

2107
01:58:56,520 --> 01:58:56,920
Speaker 1: No, no, that.

2108
01:58:58,440 --> 01:59:02,840
Speaker 3: Was Randy, that's right.

2109
01:59:03,080 --> 01:59:05,480
Speaker 1: But I did ask you in that parking lot on

2110
01:59:05,520 --> 01:59:06,040
Speaker 1: the island.

2111
01:59:07,320 --> 01:59:07,720
Speaker 2: We did.

2112
01:59:07,960 --> 01:59:10,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, what would you tell me? Your plan was?

2113
01:59:11,720 --> 01:59:13,440
Speaker 2: Oh, I went through the whole thing about why we

2114
01:59:13,480 --> 01:59:16,880
Speaker 2: got buried in February. The fact that you know, like

2115
01:59:17,040 --> 01:59:20,200
Speaker 2: trappid and bear season started in March and through April,

2116
01:59:20,240 --> 01:59:23,000
Speaker 2: the trapping fell off, but then there was field season,

2117
01:59:23,000 --> 01:59:24,800
Speaker 2: and then it was hunting season for deer all the

2118
01:59:24,880 --> 01:59:27,240
Speaker 2: way down through into November, and then trapping season picked

2119
01:59:27,280 --> 01:59:30,040
Speaker 2: up again. And usually things were froze up in February

2120
01:59:30,080 --> 01:59:31,360
Speaker 2: and that was a good time. But it happened to

2121
01:59:31,400 --> 01:59:34,960
Speaker 2: be a three day weekend that year with Valentine's Day

2122
01:59:34,960 --> 01:59:36,720
Speaker 2: on it, so we got married on Valentine's Day.

2123
01:59:36,960 --> 01:59:37,400
Speaker 1: That's cute.

2124
01:59:37,520 --> 01:59:39,040
Speaker 2: So i'd be home on anniversaries.

2125
01:59:39,520 --> 01:59:41,520
Speaker 1: So have you have you guys got all those years

2126
01:59:41,560 --> 01:59:43,200
Speaker 1: of marriages because good luck? Or do you got like

2127
01:59:43,240 --> 01:59:43,920
Speaker 1: a strategy?

2128
01:59:46,040 --> 01:59:47,480
Speaker 2: I think she's tolerable than me.

2129
01:59:50,200 --> 01:59:50,960
Speaker 1: You just got lucky.

2130
01:59:51,560 --> 01:59:56,080
Speaker 2: I got lucky. We got together and gardens. I said,

2131
01:59:56,080 --> 01:59:58,280
Speaker 2: I hunt. She says, oh, I've known guys that hunt

2132
01:59:58,320 --> 02:00:04,280
Speaker 2: before it. I said, no, you don't understand. She does.

2133
02:00:04,320 --> 02:00:08,280
Speaker 2: Now we get a lot good. She allows helping processing.

2134
02:00:08,520 --> 02:00:10,560
Speaker 2: She's got a few hunts with me and stuff like that.

2135
02:00:10,600 --> 02:00:12,920
Speaker 2: But bainly I go out and hut by myself and

2136
02:00:13,200 --> 02:00:15,200
Speaker 2: she does all the helps, all the cutting up and

2137
02:00:15,200 --> 02:00:16,200
Speaker 2: stuff when I break it home.

2138
02:00:16,400 --> 02:00:18,080
Speaker 1: Okay, had she shot a deer?

2139
02:00:18,400 --> 02:00:23,200
Speaker 2: Nope, not even interested. So he's watched me kill a bunch.

2140
02:00:23,280 --> 02:00:27,000
Speaker 4: But other than that, what she say when you get one?

2141
02:00:27,080 --> 02:00:29,400
Speaker 4: She get excited. Oh yeah, she doesn't feel bad for

2142
02:00:29,440 --> 02:00:29,720
Speaker 4: the deer.

2143
02:00:30,120 --> 02:00:32,000
Speaker 2: If she'll point out every once in a while, like

2144
02:00:32,400 --> 02:00:33,800
Speaker 2: we don't have any elk in the freezer.

2145
02:00:34,040 --> 02:00:34,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2146
02:00:35,240 --> 02:00:37,080
Speaker 2: I love those kind of statements like go forth and

2147
02:00:37,160 --> 02:00:37,600
Speaker 2: kill elk?

2148
02:00:37,640 --> 02:00:40,280
Speaker 1: You know, like, hey, what's up with uh? You know

2149
02:00:40,280 --> 02:00:42,640
Speaker 1: how you're allowed to kill a elk? On Prince Wales

2150
02:00:42,640 --> 02:00:44,160
Speaker 1: if you run into one, as long as you have

2151
02:00:44,200 --> 02:00:45,400
Speaker 1: a deer tag or something like that.

2152
02:00:45,400 --> 02:00:47,800
Speaker 5: I've seen tracks and I found you haven't.

2153
02:00:47,640 --> 02:00:48,400
Speaker 1: Laid eyes on one.

2154
02:00:48,480 --> 02:00:50,160
Speaker 2: No, I know.

2155
02:00:50,400 --> 02:00:51,760
Speaker 1: I had a guy who was feeding me a lot

2156
02:00:51,800 --> 02:00:53,720
Speaker 1: of intel about where it was somewhere, but I never

2157
02:00:53,720 --> 02:00:54,360
Speaker 1: looked into it.

2158
02:00:54,640 --> 02:00:57,839
Speaker 2: I can honestly tell you. In about ear two thousand,

2159
02:00:58,520 --> 02:01:02,680
Speaker 2: Karen saw a cow and a calf in the middle

2160
02:01:02,680 --> 02:01:05,640
Speaker 2: of the road just before you get to Goose Creek

2161
02:01:05,680 --> 02:01:08,720
Speaker 2: Thorn Bay intersection there coming to Thorn Bay. She came

2162
02:01:08,760 --> 02:01:10,920
Speaker 2: home and said, I just saw something, a deer that

2163
02:01:11,040 --> 02:01:13,000
Speaker 2: I don't know what it was. She had never seen

2164
02:01:13,000 --> 02:01:15,960
Speaker 2: a winter calf with the kind of that brushy mane,

2165
02:01:16,440 --> 02:01:18,240
Speaker 2: and I think I went to a bugle magazine and

2166
02:01:18,240 --> 02:01:20,440
Speaker 2: I held up so it looked like that. She said yes.

2167
02:01:20,480 --> 02:01:21,880
Speaker 2: I said, let's get in the truck, and we drove

2168
02:01:21,960 --> 02:01:24,520
Speaker 2: back out there and their tracks were there. I mean

2169
02:01:24,560 --> 02:01:28,120
Speaker 2: I tracked it for eight hundred yards and I never

2170
02:01:28,160 --> 02:01:28,880
Speaker 2: caught up to him.

2171
02:01:29,680 --> 02:01:30,560
Speaker 1: So they swam over.

2172
02:01:31,080 --> 02:01:34,840
Speaker 2: They were because Brushy and Shrubby's not very far from Jarembo,

2173
02:01:35,400 --> 02:01:37,880
Speaker 2: and so they went from Atland to Zarembo and then

2174
02:01:37,920 --> 02:01:40,520
Speaker 2: they can come straight across brushy and shrubby across snow

2175
02:01:40,560 --> 02:01:45,520
Speaker 2: Pass there and down to Prince of Wales. So there

2176
02:01:45,600 --> 02:01:50,600
Speaker 2: was dozens of sightings there. So they first planted Roosevelt

2177
02:01:50,640 --> 02:01:53,000
Speaker 2: elcover on Atland Island and then they came back with

2178
02:01:53,160 --> 02:01:55,640
Speaker 2: rockies and the rockies went off, I don't like this.

2179
02:01:55,600 --> 02:01:59,760
Speaker 1: Stuff, and they went so that's what was happening. They

2180
02:02:00,080 --> 02:02:04,200
Speaker 1: banded and there was the rockies would strike off swimming.

2181
02:02:04,440 --> 02:02:06,520
Speaker 2: There was a three year period where we had a

2182
02:02:06,560 --> 02:02:09,160
Speaker 2: lot of elk sidings on Prince of Well's Island, and

2183
02:02:10,000 --> 02:02:13,440
Speaker 2: I know three times during that period that I crossed

2184
02:02:13,480 --> 02:02:18,680
Speaker 2: trail tracks and I tracked them. But those those are

2185
02:02:18,720 --> 02:02:20,520
Speaker 2: the years that we were doing the deer darting, and

2186
02:02:20,560 --> 02:02:24,160
Speaker 2: we were free ranging darting uh and and getting off

2187
02:02:24,200 --> 02:02:26,840
Speaker 2: the road system and calling deer in and processing deer

2188
02:02:26,880 --> 02:02:29,000
Speaker 2: and stuff and and that during those years were the

2189
02:02:29,040 --> 02:02:33,640
Speaker 2: same expansion years of elk And I definitely saw elk

2190
02:02:33,720 --> 02:02:36,120
Speaker 2: tracks at remote areas on Prince of Wales.

2191
02:02:36,280 --> 02:02:38,040
Speaker 1: So do you think right now there's none on Prince

2192
02:02:38,080 --> 02:02:38,720
Speaker 1: of Wale's Island.

2193
02:02:39,160 --> 02:02:41,120
Speaker 2: I don't think so. I think they've got to settle

2194
02:02:41,160 --> 02:02:44,200
Speaker 2: down and they have a population on jer Inbo now

2195
02:02:44,240 --> 02:02:48,360
Speaker 2: and they've all erbred and they're not striking off. I

2196
02:02:48,400 --> 02:02:51,840
Speaker 2: don't think they're striking off. I'm sure some young male

2197
02:02:52,080 --> 02:02:54,160
Speaker 2: thinks that there's a whole island over there that might

2198
02:02:54,200 --> 02:02:56,920
Speaker 2: be full of cows that I don't know about, so

2199
02:02:57,040 --> 02:02:57,800
Speaker 2: they might come over.

2200
02:02:58,400 --> 02:03:03,040
Speaker 4: But you know, buddy mine, he one time, this is

2201
02:03:03,040 --> 02:03:04,520
Speaker 4: the same body was telling me about where to go

2202
02:03:04,520 --> 02:03:05,040
Speaker 4: look for help.

2203
02:03:06,000 --> 02:03:10,840
Speaker 1: But he one time found two. He pulled two blacktail fawns.

2204
02:03:10,480 --> 02:03:13,800
Speaker 4: Out of the water, couldn't find their mom andy where

2205
02:03:13,840 --> 02:03:15,480
Speaker 4: little fawns they had swim they were swimming.

2206
02:03:16,040 --> 02:03:18,080
Speaker 1: He got both in his boat. One died right away.

2207
02:03:19,000 --> 02:03:21,800
Speaker 4: He got one wrapped in a space blanket, got it

2208
02:03:21,840 --> 02:03:27,040
Speaker 4: all warm back up again, brought it up to the

2209
02:03:27,040 --> 02:03:30,800
Speaker 4: beach and it ran off. So some number of those

2210
02:03:30,800 --> 02:03:32,280
Speaker 4: things die like that.

2211
02:03:32,280 --> 02:03:35,320
Speaker 2: That and also when they're walking on the beach, a

2212
02:03:35,360 --> 02:03:39,840
Speaker 2: bald eagle will take them and they'll grab them and

2213
02:03:39,960 --> 02:03:44,360
Speaker 2: sometimes they let them go, but they've punctured their insides

2214
02:03:44,400 --> 02:03:47,640
Speaker 2: with their I've found several that has the talon marks.

2215
02:03:48,400 --> 02:03:54,000
Speaker 2: But I've also had like twelve mile alarm the back

2216
02:03:54,080 --> 02:03:58,480
Speaker 2: road down towards your place down there. I've I've saw

2217
02:03:58,680 --> 02:04:02,920
Speaker 2: where e was swimming across. You know how they'll get

2218
02:04:02,920 --> 02:04:05,160
Speaker 2: a salmon and they can't take off. Yep. Well, when

2219
02:04:05,200 --> 02:04:07,280
Speaker 2: it came out, it had a fun and it's challenged.

2220
02:04:07,400 --> 02:04:09,920
Speaker 1: No ship, there's a grabbing about in the water and

2221
02:04:10,000 --> 02:04:10,600
Speaker 1: drowning them.

2222
02:04:10,760 --> 02:04:13,200
Speaker 2: So there was there was quite a there's quite a

2223
02:04:13,440 --> 02:04:17,000
Speaker 2: We don't know what percentage of funds get taken by eagles,

2224
02:04:17,000 --> 02:04:20,480
Speaker 2: but it is a predator of funds, especially when there

2225
02:04:20,520 --> 02:04:24,040
Speaker 2: those first two or three day wobbly leg kind of things.

2226
02:04:25,120 --> 02:04:27,000
Speaker 2: There's definitely a definitely a thing.

2227
02:04:27,960 --> 02:04:30,840
Speaker 1: You know what you get like you get sort of

2228
02:04:30,880 --> 02:04:31,360
Speaker 1: this idea.

2229
02:04:31,400 --> 02:04:33,960
Speaker 4: You know, think about turkey hunt if your turkey hunter

2230
02:04:34,040 --> 02:04:36,280
Speaker 4: not but people you're calling turkeys and people like, oh,

2231
02:04:36,400 --> 02:04:39,200
Speaker 4: you know, he's not gonna want to cross the he's

2232
02:04:39,200 --> 02:04:40,920
Speaker 4: not gonna want to cross the ditch, or you know,

2233
02:04:40,960 --> 02:04:42,160
Speaker 4: you're trying to call him through the fence.

2234
02:04:42,160 --> 02:04:43,720
Speaker 1: You won't want to try to cross the fence.

2235
02:04:44,400 --> 02:04:46,840
Speaker 4: And people talking about stuff like that, like these little

2236
02:04:46,840 --> 02:04:49,560
Speaker 4: perceived obstacles. You know, when you're trying to call something

2237
02:04:49,560 --> 02:04:53,800
Speaker 4: in when you get up there there's so much water

2238
02:04:55,080 --> 02:04:56,760
Speaker 4: and you think of like you think of a bear

2239
02:04:56,840 --> 02:04:58,640
Speaker 4: deer coming down to the water and he's gonna like

2240
02:04:58,680 --> 02:05:02,080
Speaker 4: kind of psych himself up, get ready.

2241
02:05:01,800 --> 02:05:04,200
Speaker 1: You know, and then go for it. When you're watching them,

2242
02:05:04,200 --> 02:05:05,640
Speaker 1: it's like they don't even think, man.

2243
02:05:06,760 --> 02:05:08,840
Speaker 2: If you're a rutting buck on, they just like just

2244
02:05:08,840 --> 02:05:11,320
Speaker 2: like in the water, swim, wow, don't.

2245
02:05:11,440 --> 02:05:13,720
Speaker 4: They're not like, you know, not like who I gotta

2246
02:05:13,720 --> 02:05:15,840
Speaker 4: build myself up for the swim. It's like they don't

2247
02:05:15,840 --> 02:05:18,720
Speaker 4: even they seem as comfortable swimming as they do walking.

2248
02:05:18,800 --> 02:05:20,760
Speaker 2: I've had wolves swimming in front of my boat and

2249
02:05:20,760 --> 02:05:22,520
Speaker 2: get out on the beach and just shake off, sit

2250
02:05:22,560 --> 02:05:24,960
Speaker 2: down and whatever.

2251
02:05:25,760 --> 02:05:28,640
Speaker 4: It's wild to watch deer like come down and bop

2252
02:05:28,720 --> 02:05:29,520
Speaker 4: into the salt.

2253
02:05:29,360 --> 02:05:31,320
Speaker 1: Water and just fast.

2254
02:05:31,680 --> 02:05:35,480
Speaker 2: They're fast. You can't catch them in a canoe, have

2255
02:05:35,480 --> 02:05:37,760
Speaker 2: little webby things or nothing. It seems like they really go.

2256
02:05:37,880 --> 02:05:39,880
Speaker 1: Well yeah, it's just they don't give a ship.

2257
02:05:39,920 --> 02:05:40,440
Speaker 2: They just go.

2258
02:05:41,080 --> 02:05:43,920
Speaker 1: They just swim. You see him on these dinky little

2259
02:05:43,960 --> 02:05:45,320
Speaker 1: islands now, and then you're like, what the hell are

2260
02:05:45,280 --> 02:05:45,720
Speaker 1: you doing.

2261
02:05:45,600 --> 02:05:48,160
Speaker 2: On the island. Actually, I think a lot of times

2262
02:05:49,160 --> 02:05:51,160
Speaker 2: right about the end of May, the dose go to

2263
02:05:51,200 --> 02:05:54,040
Speaker 2: those little islands. They have funds because there's less predators

2264
02:05:54,080 --> 02:05:54,480
Speaker 2: out there.

2265
02:05:54,760 --> 02:05:58,240
Speaker 4: Well, I've seen that time of year you see black

2266
02:05:58,240 --> 02:06:00,000
Speaker 4: bears striking out for little Teeney Island.

2267
02:06:00,120 --> 02:06:05,600
Speaker 2: You know, yep, I absolutely agree with that.

2268
02:06:07,920 --> 02:06:10,680
Speaker 1: Well, how do people get involved with Blacktail? To your foundation?

2269
02:06:12,600 --> 02:06:15,960
Speaker 2: Go to the web paite black Tail Deer got org.

2270
02:06:16,200 --> 02:06:19,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, black you guys are gonna start chapters. People can

2271
02:06:19,200 --> 02:06:19,919
Speaker 1: start chapters.

2272
02:06:20,040 --> 02:06:24,640
Speaker 2: We've got chapters. Uh, I think we we had a

2273
02:06:24,680 --> 02:06:28,240
Speaker 2: lot of the meal Deer chapters. We went to them

2274
02:06:28,240 --> 02:06:30,720
Speaker 2: and said, do you want to become a black a

2275
02:06:30,760 --> 02:06:32,760
Speaker 2: dedicated black Tail chapter? And I think most of them

2276
02:06:32,840 --> 02:06:36,200
Speaker 2: said yes, Some of them in California that have meal

2277
02:06:36,280 --> 02:06:39,880
Speaker 2: deer close or in Washington, Oregon that that also care

2278
02:06:39,920 --> 02:06:42,720
Speaker 2: about meal deer in eastern Washington, eastern Oregon and stuff

2279
02:06:42,760 --> 02:06:45,080
Speaker 2: like that. They were they were trying to figure out

2280
02:06:45,080 --> 02:06:46,800
Speaker 2: how to go both ways on that stuff, which is

2281
02:06:46,840 --> 02:06:48,760
Speaker 2: totally cool. At Alaska, it's a no brainer.

2282
02:06:49,080 --> 02:06:50,880
Speaker 1: Well, is there going to be a chapter in Craig?

2283
02:06:51,240 --> 02:06:54,920
Speaker 2: Yep, there he is really I'm the Tripperson.

2284
02:06:55,120 --> 02:06:57,720
Speaker 1: Oh can you join if you're just opposer from out

2285
02:06:57,720 --> 02:06:59,280
Speaker 1: of town, Yeah, we'd like you.

2286
02:06:59,520 --> 02:07:03,720
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, So you could go to the website. There's

2287
02:07:03,760 --> 02:07:07,800
Speaker 2: the and that's the easiest way. There's several options on

2288
02:07:07,800 --> 02:07:10,440
Speaker 2: on what how many years you do it and what

2289
02:07:10,640 --> 02:07:13,480
Speaker 2: level of chapter and whether you're a sponsoring and and

2290
02:07:13,760 --> 02:07:16,880
Speaker 2: we'll eventually have a deal on their for life memberships

2291
02:07:16,880 --> 02:07:20,839
Speaker 2: and stuff like that. We've already done some chapter awards

2292
02:07:20,840 --> 02:07:23,920
Speaker 2: stuff on Kodiak. We have a really functioning, really good

2293
02:07:24,000 --> 02:07:27,400
Speaker 2: chapter on Kodiak, and uh, we're not going to do

2294
02:07:27,440 --> 02:07:30,640
Speaker 2: anything on Kodiak for habitat and habitat is fine on Kodiak.

2295
02:07:31,640 --> 02:07:34,280
Speaker 2: But what we're doing is helping the research that the Laska

2296
02:07:34,320 --> 02:07:36,640
Speaker 2: Department of Ficient Game is doing on Kodiak on sick

2297
02:07:36,680 --> 02:07:39,760
Speaker 2: of Blacktail Deer. And that was the decision of the

2298
02:07:39,920 --> 02:07:44,120
Speaker 2: chapter up there that they wanted to help the area

2299
02:07:44,120 --> 02:07:46,960
Speaker 2: biologist and his assistant of their work on the projects

2300
02:07:47,000 --> 02:07:49,320
Speaker 2: that they're doing. And there's a bunch of camera traps

2301
02:07:49,320 --> 02:07:51,960
Speaker 2: going on and they're actually going to have the Black

2302
02:07:51,960 --> 02:07:55,640
Speaker 2: Tailed Deer Foundation members run the running the line of

2303
02:07:55,680 --> 02:07:58,600
Speaker 2: cameras and helping change out cars and batteries and stuff,

2304
02:07:58,600 --> 02:08:00,000
Speaker 2: which will save money for day.

2305
02:08:00,080 --> 02:08:03,680
Speaker 1: Well that's cool, Yeah, that would be some good volunteer

2306
02:08:03,800 --> 02:08:04,560
Speaker 1: and we're gonna.

2307
02:08:04,760 --> 02:08:06,560
Speaker 2: We're gonna be doing that in other areas. So we've

2308
02:08:06,560 --> 02:08:08,320
Speaker 2: got we're gonna have a chapter in Judo. We've got

2309
02:08:08,320 --> 02:08:10,680
Speaker 2: a chapter in Cisca, Prince of Wales catch a can

2310
02:08:13,440 --> 02:08:18,480
Speaker 2: uh palmer withscilla. We want one in Fairbanks, we got

2311
02:08:18,480 --> 02:08:21,200
Speaker 2: one in Anchorage. I'm trying to think I might be

2312
02:08:21,240 --> 02:08:25,240
Speaker 2: missing one. And of course those guys don't have deer,

2313
02:08:25,760 --> 02:08:29,840
Speaker 2: but they go to Kodiak or they care, you know,

2314
02:08:29,880 --> 02:08:34,120
Speaker 2: And that's what I tell people. We all have we

2315
02:08:34,200 --> 02:08:37,120
Speaker 2: all have organizations that we support and we think about

2316
02:08:37,160 --> 02:08:39,880
Speaker 2: and it's your choice to put your money where you

2317
02:08:39,960 --> 02:08:44,320
Speaker 2: best fit. And I the folks that really care about

2318
02:08:44,640 --> 02:08:47,800
Speaker 2: blacktail deer across the West and then Alaska, I hope

2319
02:08:47,840 --> 02:08:50,400
Speaker 2: they seriously consider a black tail deer foundation. I know.

2320
02:08:50,440 --> 02:08:52,040
Speaker 4: I got a lot of buddies that are in the

2321
02:08:52,080 --> 02:08:56,080
Speaker 4: interior that that's a part of their annual cycle is

2322
02:08:56,080 --> 02:08:59,440
Speaker 4: because things wind down, right, and so guys go to

2323
02:08:59,520 --> 02:09:02,960
Speaker 4: Kodiak Prince William Sound Southeast as part of the annual

2324
02:09:03,000 --> 02:09:05,840
Speaker 4: deal is to get like another hunting you know, every year,

2325
02:09:05,880 --> 02:09:09,360
Speaker 4: which for them hunting November, it is very late season.

2326
02:09:09,240 --> 02:09:11,600
Speaker 2: Right, but they're also out of that by that time

2327
02:09:11,680 --> 02:09:15,280
Speaker 2: the weather's deteriorating up an interior, it's really cold and

2328
02:09:15,400 --> 02:09:16,200
Speaker 2: come down and be warm.

2329
02:09:16,400 --> 02:09:18,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so.

2330
02:09:20,080 --> 02:09:27,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a I'm really excited to see the emphasis

2331
02:09:27,080 --> 02:09:31,800
Speaker 2: that Greg and the board on the Fielder Foundation Board

2332
02:09:31,840 --> 02:09:35,440
Speaker 2: and stuff, and Steve and his conservation group is putting

2333
02:09:35,480 --> 02:09:39,520
Speaker 2: on this because it's to me, it's where I wanted

2334
02:09:39,520 --> 02:09:41,800
Speaker 2: to get to starting in about two thousand and six,

2335
02:09:41,840 --> 02:09:43,800
Speaker 2: and I think it's exciting. It's just for me. It's

2336
02:09:43,800 --> 02:09:46,600
Speaker 2: really exciting to see this focus on a deer that

2337
02:09:46,640 --> 02:09:48,840
Speaker 2: really had nobody focusing on him in the past. And

2338
02:09:48,960 --> 02:09:52,480
Speaker 2: I don't know what strides could be made. I don't

2339
02:09:52,480 --> 02:09:57,400
Speaker 2: know what landscape management policies can be changed or what,

2340
02:09:57,600 --> 02:09:59,000
Speaker 2: but I hope to be part of it.

2341
02:09:59,520 --> 02:10:03,280
Speaker 4: Well, think that if you are able to promote like

2342
02:10:03,320 --> 02:10:07,400
Speaker 4: you can definitely promote research, you can promote awareness of

2343
02:10:07,440 --> 02:10:12,680
Speaker 4: issues right, and you can unify groups of people who

2344
02:10:12,720 --> 02:10:18,600
Speaker 4: love the animals to you know, look out for their

2345
02:10:19,320 --> 02:10:22,880
Speaker 4: the best interests of the hunting even outside of the

2346
02:10:22,920 --> 02:10:24,560
Speaker 4: habitat work that you want to do. I think that

2347
02:10:24,680 --> 02:10:28,560
Speaker 4: doing those things and making a sort of like political body,

2348
02:10:28,800 --> 02:10:32,200
Speaker 4: so to speak of like of blacktail fans who are

2349
02:10:32,320 --> 02:10:36,320
Speaker 4: educated and aware, I think that in and of itself

2350
02:10:36,400 --> 02:10:37,000
Speaker 4: is valuable.

2351
02:10:37,920 --> 02:10:39,600
Speaker 2: One of the questions that come to us all the time.

2352
02:10:39,640 --> 02:10:44,000
Speaker 2: But you would be supportive intensity management programs on predators,

2353
02:10:44,040 --> 02:10:47,400
Speaker 2: and we focus on habitat. I want to be very

2354
02:10:47,400 --> 02:10:50,640
Speaker 2: clear about that. We don't take a stance on there

2355
02:10:50,760 --> 02:10:57,400
Speaker 2: unless some management would come down that would greatly negatively

2356
02:10:57,600 --> 02:11:02,680
Speaker 2: affect the deer population. But mainly we're looking at habitat

2357
02:11:02,680 --> 02:11:05,640
Speaker 2: and what can we do is there is there truly

2358
02:11:05,720 --> 02:11:08,240
Speaker 2: something to be done for habitat? And say, I think

2359
02:11:08,240 --> 02:11:10,600
Speaker 2: there really truly is something that can be done for habitat.

2360
02:11:11,200 --> 02:11:13,760
Speaker 2: It's not going to be planting sagebrush, taken down fence,

2361
02:11:14,200 --> 02:11:17,000
Speaker 2: it's not going to be working on migration corridors and stuff.

2362
02:11:17,000 --> 02:11:20,040
Speaker 2: It's going to be working on conductivity of that animal

2363
02:11:20,080 --> 02:11:22,360
Speaker 2: on the landscape and where's it going to get his

2364
02:11:22,480 --> 02:11:25,440
Speaker 2: next meal? And can we do better in creating those

2365
02:11:26,040 --> 02:11:28,720
Speaker 2: salad rules out there for those things to go forwarge.

2366
02:11:28,440 --> 02:11:30,200
Speaker 1: On and give them a way to get to the

2367
02:11:30,200 --> 02:11:30,800
Speaker 1: salad bowl.

2368
02:11:31,320 --> 02:11:34,640
Speaker 2: And I want people to be able to have access

2369
02:11:35,160 --> 02:11:39,600
Speaker 2: to the areas that we create those opportunities for deer

2370
02:11:40,320 --> 02:11:43,880
Speaker 2: so that they also can hunt those areas. I don't

2371
02:11:43,880 --> 02:11:46,320
Speaker 2: want to leave I don't want to leave that rural

2372
02:11:46,400 --> 02:11:49,240
Speaker 2: resident or non residence or anybody else out of that equation.

2373
02:11:52,160 --> 02:11:55,760
Speaker 1: Okay, thanks for coming on man.

2374
02:11:55,640 --> 02:11:57,200
Speaker 2: And you've got to do it with a flintlocker.

2375
02:11:58,400 --> 02:12:01,480
Speaker 1: That's the new rule. Don't let that rumor get out there.

2376
02:12:02,040 --> 02:12:02,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's true.

2377
02:12:03,000 --> 02:12:06,040
Speaker 2: No, So I called for my best flintlock story that

2378
02:12:06,120 --> 02:12:09,680
Speaker 2: I called for an entire hour. I had trees like

2379
02:12:09,760 --> 02:12:13,120
Speaker 2: this that were being rubbed in this area, and I

2380
02:12:13,200 --> 02:12:15,360
Speaker 2: called for a whole hour. It was cold. It was

2381
02:12:15,400 --> 02:12:18,280
Speaker 2: like fifteen degrees that morning, so you're about.

2382
02:12:18,120 --> 02:12:20,879
Speaker 5: Thirty five minutes past your usual tolerance.

2383
02:12:20,880 --> 02:12:23,320
Speaker 2: I tied myself for an hour, and at an hour

2384
02:12:23,400 --> 02:12:26,160
Speaker 2: I was starting to get really cold. I stood up

2385
02:12:26,160 --> 02:12:28,120
Speaker 2: and I kind of brush around, and I put my

2386
02:12:28,160 --> 02:12:31,120
Speaker 2: backpack on and I reached down. I picked up my flintlock,

2387
02:12:31,200 --> 02:12:34,040
Speaker 2: and I come around my tree and there's this huge

2388
02:12:34,120 --> 02:12:36,880
Speaker 2: five point walking down the trail right at me. He's

2389
02:12:36,880 --> 02:12:40,880
Speaker 2: about eighty five yards out again, steam rolling off of him.

2390
02:12:40,920 --> 02:12:43,120
Speaker 2: I remember the steam out of his nostrils that morning.

2391
02:12:43,160 --> 02:12:47,480
Speaker 2: He was so beautiful. He was all vivid, vivid alder

2392
02:12:47,560 --> 02:12:51,560
Speaker 2: rubbed orange antlers. And he turns around, he goes back

2393
02:12:51,720 --> 02:12:55,440
Speaker 2: up the hill. I wasn't going to. All I would

2394
02:12:55,480 --> 02:12:57,600
Speaker 2: have had was an eighty five yard shot with a

2395
02:12:57,600 --> 02:12:59,520
Speaker 2: flintlock offhand. I'm not going to take that out a

2396
02:12:59,520 --> 02:13:01,920
Speaker 2: sick of black. They'll look it straight at me. Turned

2397
02:13:01,920 --> 02:13:04,200
Speaker 2: her out, walks back over the hill. I run up

2398
02:13:04,240 --> 02:13:07,160
Speaker 2: the hill and I look and his tracks go off

2399
02:13:07,200 --> 02:13:11,120
Speaker 2: and he goes into this timber. And I had a can,

2400
02:13:11,880 --> 02:13:15,000
Speaker 2: one of the little long cans, and I reached out

2401
02:13:15,120 --> 02:13:18,480
Speaker 2: on that loud and I reached out and I flipped

2402
02:13:18,480 --> 02:13:21,400
Speaker 2: that can and he flew up out of the timber

2403
02:13:21,680 --> 02:13:25,600
Speaker 2: and came broadside at fifty yards, turned broadside with the

2404
02:13:25,640 --> 02:13:30,160
Speaker 2: mourning sun sitting against him steaming, reached back and scratched

2405
02:13:30,200 --> 02:13:33,640
Speaker 2: his butt with his antlers, and I dropped to go

2406
02:13:33,680 --> 02:13:36,200
Speaker 2: to one knee, and I couldn't see him over the curve,

2407
02:13:36,240 --> 02:13:37,920
Speaker 2: and I said, stand up. You do this at the

2408
02:13:38,000 --> 02:13:40,520
Speaker 2: range all the time. Focus, focus, focus, And I when

2409
02:13:40,560 --> 02:13:43,080
Speaker 2: I when I shoot a flintlock, I try to imagine

2410
02:13:43,080 --> 02:13:46,080
Speaker 2: that round ball going clear through the target before I

2411
02:13:46,160 --> 02:13:49,320
Speaker 2: come out of my hold. And I reached up and

2412
02:13:49,360 --> 02:13:52,680
Speaker 2: I booh, And when I got the smoke cleared, he

2413
02:13:52,760 --> 02:13:56,880
Speaker 2: was gone, just like he had never been there. And

2414
02:13:56,960 --> 02:14:00,920
Speaker 2: I walked over and here's a chunkle lung laying on

2415
02:14:01,000 --> 02:14:04,200
Speaker 2: the spagn and moss. And I'm like, all right, you're

2416
02:14:04,280 --> 02:14:08,040
Speaker 2: on the right track. But there I would have boarded.

2417
02:14:08,040 --> 02:14:10,600
Speaker 2: It was I wish I could play in my brain

2418
02:14:10,720 --> 02:14:13,320
Speaker 2: the sun on his body and the steam rising off

2419
02:14:13,320 --> 02:14:15,920
Speaker 2: his body there at about fifty yards. That was. That

2420
02:14:16,000 --> 02:14:16,920
Speaker 2: was a special moment.

2421
02:14:17,240 --> 02:14:20,640
Speaker 5: Heck, yeah, I'm fired out. Sign me up for the

2422
02:14:20,680 --> 02:14:24,760
Speaker 5: Blacktail here Foundation as well.

2423
02:14:25,960 --> 02:14:28,000
Speaker 4: All right, thank you, guys man, thanks so much for

2424
02:14:28,040 --> 02:14:29,920
Speaker 4: coming out with Jim Blacktail.

2425
02:14:29,960 --> 02:14:31,040
Speaker 5: Dear dot org.

2426
02:14:31,800 --> 02:14:37,160
Speaker 1: That's right, that's easy to remember, dud org. Start a chapter,

2427
02:14:37,320 --> 02:14:38,640
Speaker 1: join a chapter, and go.

2428
02:14:38,560 --> 02:14:41,840
Speaker 2: Check out sick a Blacktail dot org. That's Sophie and

2429
02:14:41,920 --> 02:14:42,920
Speaker 2: Toddenmind's web page.

2430
02:14:43,080 --> 02:14:46,360
Speaker 1: Learn about some researches. Yep, thanks dude.

2431
02:14:46,760 --> 02:14:47,200
Speaker 2: All right,