WEBVTT - INTERVIEW: Ryan Holiday Explains How "Wisdom Takes Work", Rounding Out His Virtue Book Series + More 0:00:01.560 --> 0:00:05.720 Every day A way up the breakfast Clubs. 0:00:05.920 --> 0:00:07.480 Y'all done morning. 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:11.360 Everybody is DJ Envy just hilarious. Charlamagne the guy we 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:14.040 are to breakfast Club Lawn. The Rolls is here as well. 0:00:14.240 --> 0:00:15.400 We got a special guest in. 0:00:15.320 --> 0:00:17.520 The building, one of my favorite authors ever. It's a 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:17.919 new book. 0:00:18.079 --> 0:00:22.439 Wisdom Takes work, Learn, Apply, repeat, Ladies and gentlemen, Ryan Holiday. 0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:23.320 Welcome back, Thanks for having me. 0:00:23.440 --> 0:00:24.360 How are you feeling this morning? 0:00:24.360 --> 0:00:25.040 Doing awesome? 0:00:26.000 --> 0:00:32.320 The book is this number one, sixteen. 0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:36.839 Fifth or six time he's been up here. Very good 0:00:36.880 --> 0:00:37.040 to me. 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:38.680 Yeah, now we like having you. Man. 0:00:39.320 --> 0:00:43.400 The Wisdom takes work, Learn, apply, repleate, repeat, And in 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:45.960 the book you argue that wisdom is the virtue on 0:00:46.000 --> 0:00:48.199 which all other virtues depend. 0:00:48.400 --> 0:00:49.720 How did you arrive at that belief? 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:52.319 So the four virtues of Stoke Foster try to write 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:53.920 about our courage. 0:00:53.800 --> 0:00:55.960 Discipline, justice, and wisdom. 0:00:56.400 --> 0:00:59.200 They're all separate, but they're related in that, you know, 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:03.080 wisdom tells us when and how to apply the others. 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:05.880 I think if you doesn't matter you know how good 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:08.520 your heart is, if you don't have the wisdom the 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:11.759 intelligence to know how to bring it into the world, 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:14.920 or you know courage is important, but you could be 0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:19.320 courageous for something real dumb. So wisdom is the sort 0:01:19.319 --> 0:01:22.039 of layer on top that we have to apply to 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:23.920 all other skills and assets. 0:01:24.040 --> 0:01:25.600 Well, it's one thing to do to research with their 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:28.800 specific moment in your life that made you realize it. 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:30.200 That wisdom was important. 0:01:30.280 --> 0:01:33.800 Yeah, well, you know, I think we've all met some 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:37.000 smart people that do dumb things. And I think we've 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:40.160 all done dumb things. And you look at you look 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:43.720 at wisdom as being the sort of the key to 0:01:44.640 --> 0:01:47.560 not just a successful life, but a good life. Right 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:49.760 you can you can be really good at what you 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:53.040 do and then you can blow it all up, or 0:01:53.080 --> 0:01:55.680 you can be profoundly unhappy, or you know how many 0:01:55.680 --> 0:01:58.840 smart people are lacking in self awareness. So I just 0:01:58.840 --> 0:02:01.880 think wisdom is this sort of that brings it all together. 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:05.080 And I think I think one of the problems is 0:02:05.080 --> 0:02:08.680 that we assume wisdom is this thing that just happens, 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:11.360 right we go. Sure, school is important, but you know, 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:14.959 experience is important. You know wisdom comes with age, not 0:02:15.280 --> 0:02:17.799 It's no guarantee. I've met a lot of dumb old 0:02:17.840 --> 0:02:18.320 people too. 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:21.239 Absolutely, I was always talking small people learn from the 0:02:21.240 --> 0:02:23.280 ol mistakes. Wise people learn from mistakes of others. I 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:27.000 completely agree that wisdom is a lost art. I think 0:02:27.040 --> 0:02:28.320 you have a lot of smart people. I don't think 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:29.840 you have a lot of wise people nowadays. 0:02:29.960 --> 0:02:33.720 Yeah yeah, and I mean you need this not just 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:36.720 to be successful, as I was saying, but like, how 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:39.480 do you not fall for demagogues? Or how do you 0:02:39.520 --> 0:02:44.200 not fall for scams? How do you rise above the noise? 0:02:44.240 --> 0:02:45.840 How do you separate fact from fiction? 0:02:46.160 --> 0:02:46.560 Wisdom? 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:49.639 I think is you know that there's this word discernment, right, 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:52.360 the art of discernment, like how many people can really 0:02:52.360 --> 0:02:55.080 see the difference between good and really good, you know, 0:02:55.280 --> 0:02:58.519 right and almost right truths and complete nonsense? 0:02:58.560 --> 0:03:00.639 That to me is the missing skin of our time. 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:04.400 We do so pack it up. We're not doing Yes, 0:03:04.440 --> 0:03:05.320 we are, no. 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:08.079 I think I think everybody eventually has something in their 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:10.600 life that wakes them up to that, whether it's at 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:12.600 a different like might be young, might be older. But 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:15.080 you always taught you always thought that like wisdom comes 0:03:15.120 --> 0:03:17.800 with age. Yes that saying so you probably hate that 0:03:17.840 --> 0:03:19.359 saying huh yeah. 0:03:19.560 --> 0:03:21.840 Churchill was joking about this guy he didn't like, and 0:03:21.840 --> 0:03:26.080 he said, uh that although he occasionally stumbled over the truth, 0:03:26.400 --> 0:03:28.720 he quickly picked himself up and carried on as if 0:03:28.720 --> 0:03:32.040 nothing had happened. Right, So people are I think life 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:35.160 is always teaching you, right, but you don't have to 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:38.960 hear it, and so life will sometimes whisper life. 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:39.800 Life will tell you. 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:42.400 Nicely things that you need to know, and then when 0:03:42.400 --> 0:03:46.440 we ignore that, it becomes louder and louder and louder, 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:49.440 until sometimes you know, you have to learn from some 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:54.600 kind of catastrophic failure or catastrophe, and so you know 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:58.320 your point that that we can learn from the experiences 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:02.800 of others, that's a cheap, effective, efficient way to do it, 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:04.600 and then a lot of us go, no, no, I'd 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:06.840 rather figure it out on my own, and that that 0:04:06.920 --> 0:04:09.720 costs not just them, but the people around them, like 0:04:09.760 --> 0:04:12.600 the when we're late to learning lessons, that doesn't just 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:15.240 affect us, but that affects the people that work for us, 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:19.000 that affects our family, that affects the people who you 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:22.839 know bear the consequences of that, you know, painful lesson 0:04:22.880 --> 0:04:24.520 that we chose to learn the hard way. 0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:28.280 I think wisdom has to come from age, though sure, regardless, 0:04:28.279 --> 0:04:30.160 I mean, regardless of what the part you could meet 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:32.960 a stupid old person, but there is some wisdom that 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:35.240 comes from what they're doing, whether if they work at 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:38.040 a plant, whether they whatever they do at the house, 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:41.080 there is some type of wisdom that they can continue 0:04:41.120 --> 0:04:42.320 on to give to somebody else. 0:04:42.480 --> 0:04:44.640 Well, you know, the root of the word idiot is 0:04:44.839 --> 0:04:49.480 somebody in ancient Greece who did not participate in public life. 0:04:50.080 --> 0:04:52.720 So you know, you can read everything you want, and 0:04:52.760 --> 0:04:55.080 you can read a lot, and that'll make you smarter 0:04:55.160 --> 0:04:59.880 than the average person. But if you're not engaged and involved, 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:03.000 you're going to miss some things that you can only 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:06.479 learn from experience. You know, Da Vinci would sign his 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:10.080 letters a disciple of experience. 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:12.120 You have to learn by doing. You have to put 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:12.800 yourself out there. 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:15.359 And that's why I say it's learn, apply, repeat, So 0:05:15.680 --> 0:05:19.040 you learn the things you hear, the lessons you study, 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:21.200 you go to school, then you got to go out 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:24.680 in the world and you find that a lot of 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:26.599 what you learn now has to be applied, or a 0:05:26.640 --> 0:05:29.760 lot of what you learned you didn't actually understand it. 0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:32.719 And then you repeat that cycle over and over and 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:35.960 over again each time that that's a positive feedback loop 0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:37.799 that's making you smarter and better. 0:05:37.600 --> 0:05:39.920 And they talk about educational a lot of people. I'm 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:41.599 seeing this a lot more, more and more and more, 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:45.120 that people are not necessarily wanting to go to college. Sure, 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:48.520 they feel like the education that they get in college, 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:52.880 they can be taught more through life experiences, and they 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:56.360 feel like the wisdom that those professors have might be 0:05:56.880 --> 0:05:59.920 outdated what they're teaching. What's your thoughts on them? 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:02.720 Well, look, I'm a proud college dropout, so I'm all 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:06.000 about it. There is and always has been a difference 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:10.000 between school and education. So I think the problem is 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:13.360 if you don't know what you're trying to do, how 0:06:13.400 --> 0:06:15.599 do you know what the best form of schooling or 0:06:15.720 --> 0:06:17.039 education is for you? 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:20.840 I said that all the time. By the way, I 0:06:20.920 --> 0:06:23.200 think it's stupid that we force kids to get out 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:24.800 of high school and say, go to college and pick 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:27.440 a major immediately when they don't necessarily know what they 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:28.680 want to do. If you know what you want to do, 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:31.080 that's great. But there's been times where kids would like, 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:33.400 I don't know, Like, don't make me pick a major 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:36.120 and make me take these courses if I don't necessarily 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:37.200 know what I want to do in life. 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:38.600 And that's the way I woulday when we live in 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:40.320 a world where we're kind of preparing for a future 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:42.279 that won't even exist for the AI going to be 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:43.520 having all the jobs anyway. 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:46.960 Well, look, spending a couple hundred thousand dollars over four 0:06:47.040 --> 0:06:49.320 years is an expensive way to figure out what you 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:51.760 want to do, absolutely, especially if at the end of 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:53.719 it you find out that what you want to do 0:06:54.279 --> 0:06:58.479 is something that didn't require college. For me, I met 0:06:58.560 --> 0:07:02.000 Robert Green, our mutual friend, and then I realized that's 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:04.080 what I wanted to do. And then I said, well, 0:07:04.120 --> 0:07:06.000 am I going to keep going to college or am 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:08.720 I going to go directly learn from the person who's 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:12.200 done it. So I'm a big believer in apprenticeships and mentorships. 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:16.000 You got to find your teachers. Sometimes those are college professors, 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:21.640 sometimes their business executives, sometimes their you know, your neighbor 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:23.840 down the street. But you got to find who can 0:07:23.880 --> 0:07:26.560 teach you how to do what you want to do. 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:28.680 And when When you started off as an apprentice with 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:30.560 Robert Green, one of the first things he puts you 0:07:30.600 --> 0:07:31.720 on with forty power. 0:07:32.160 --> 0:07:34.640 No, I've worked on the fiftieth law fiftie Like the 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:37.480 first thing I did was transcribe before in a world 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:41.600 before AI. I transcribed hours and hours of interviews between 0:07:41.680 --> 0:07:44.200 him and fifty and so that was part of my 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:47.040 education is just listening, not just listening to it, but 0:07:47.120 --> 0:07:49.680 having to painstakingly type it all out. And so I 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:52.480 got this masterclass and not just you know how he worked, 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:54.640 but all the people around him. And but what I 0:07:54.720 --> 0:07:57.560 was actually learning was like how you put a book together. 0:07:58.000 --> 0:07:59.760 And Robert showed me how to research a book and 0:07:59.800 --> 0:08:02.160 how to write, and then how to operate in the industry. 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:04.440 You want to find the people who are further ahead 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:07.160 in what you want to do and do it. Although 0:08:07.280 --> 0:08:09.360 to be fair, like in college, I think one of 0:08:09.400 --> 0:08:13.560 the most professors are professionals in what they do. 0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:14.200 They're not just. 0:08:14.200 --> 0:08:18.560 Teachers, they're researchers, They're experts there. You know, they had 0:08:18.800 --> 0:08:21.240 a previous experience where they did the thing. And you 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:23.960 know every week they have office hours where they have 0:08:24.040 --> 0:08:28.280 to sit there and meet with the students and nobody comes. 0:08:28.640 --> 0:08:29.560 So I thought. 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:31.560 The crazy thing for me is like I didn't go 0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:34.560 into the library at my college until after I dropped 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:36.880 out and I was writing my first book because I 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:39.679 was like, oh wait, this is an incredible free resource 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:42.559 that I was too busy, you know, doing the college 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:45.320 kid thing to take advantage of. So all this stuff 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:47.840 is there, it's just you got to be self directed 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:48.760 and self motivated. 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:49.040 You know. 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:51.240 In a Wisdom Takes Work you write that we live 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:54.680 in an age where reaction and idle chatter are rewarded 0:08:54.760 --> 0:08:57.319 in restraint and thoughtfulness are unfashionable. 0:08:57.600 --> 0:08:59.680 And you talk to these digital decays about what you 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:00.160 mean that? 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:04.760 Yeah, I mean, look, social media is by definition talking 0:09:04.920 --> 0:09:08.320 and not listening. Zeno, the founder of stoicism, he said, 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:10.800 we have two ears and one mouth for a reason, 0:09:11.400 --> 0:09:14.600 and when you're talking, what you're mostly doing is not listening. 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:18.960 So we have this enormous sort of media culture that's 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:23.160 about chatter and noise and it's not about thoughts and reflection. 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:25.360 And I mean, even how much of what we listen 0:09:25.400 --> 0:09:28.080 to and talk about is what's happening right now, not 0:09:28.240 --> 0:09:32.400 the historical context or the bigger picture. And I think 0:09:33.000 --> 0:09:35.120 it's not that there's anything wrong with news or podcasts 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:38.000 or social media, but if you don't have like the 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:41.000 historical basis, the larger context, you're not going to know 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:43.680 what any of it means. You know, Truman's famous line was, 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:46.680 there's nothing new in the world, but the history you 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:49.720 don't know. And so most of what's happening now has 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:52.760 happened before. But if it's the first time you're hearing 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:54.920 about it, you're experiencing, you're going to have the wrong 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:57.880 read on it, because you think it's like, somehow unprecedented, 0:09:57.920 --> 0:09:59.680 But in fact it's very precedented. 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:02.760 Somebody is unprecedented. Though a lot of what we're seeing 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:05.120 right now you think so, at least in America. I 0:10:05.160 --> 0:10:06.559 guess you mean, I guess if you can rely on 0:10:06.640 --> 0:10:07.800 historical context, that's. 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:08.079 What I mean. 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:11.320 Yeah, I mean this archetype you want to look at 0:10:11.320 --> 0:10:15.400 a Donald Trump. Donald Trump exists in half a dozen 0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:22.040 Shakespearean plays. He exists in Greek tragedies. There are historical 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:25.120 precedent after historical precedent for guys like that. 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:25.480 I mean. 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:28.439 One of the interesting lines in Marx Sirelis's Meditations, he 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:32.559 says that he thanks his philosophy teacher for teaching him 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:35.520 not to fall for every smooth talker. So like the 0:10:35.559 --> 0:10:37.800 idea of the demagogue, the idea of the strong man, 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:41.880 the idea of the con man is as old a 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:44.280 thing as there has ever been. And part of the 0:10:44.320 --> 0:10:48.680 reason I think people have trouble spotting it or seeing 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:50.839 it for what it is is that they don't know 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:53.280 that this has happened again and again and again, and 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:56.120 therefore they don't know how badly this ends. 0:10:56.720 --> 0:10:59.559 Is he a smooth talker. I wouldn't consider him a 0:10:59.559 --> 0:10:59.920 smooth time. 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:03.320 I mean he's not smooth in the sense that you know, 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:06.120 he's particularly good at it, like he's this soaring order. 0:11:06.280 --> 0:11:09.280 But he's really good at telling aggrieved people what they 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:13.240 want to hear. And that's what demagogues have always done 0:11:13.360 --> 0:11:16.800 and always do. They They point to the other and 0:11:16.840 --> 0:11:18.120 they say, your problems are not. 0:11:18.200 --> 0:11:20.760 Your fault, they're these people's fault. 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:23.840 And I'm going to be your weapon of vengeance against them. 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:28.040 That's as old as you know political strong men have 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:28.560 ever been. 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:30.200 What's the second brain? 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:34.400 Second brain? So and I learned this from Robert Green 0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:38.720 The the the writer is like you have to be 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:42.360 recording and synthesizing the knowledge that you get. So it's 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:44.280 not enough to have a mentor it's not enough to 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:47.680 read books, it's not enough to watch listen to podcasts 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:52.719 or watch documentaries. How are you collecting and organizing this information. So, like, 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:57.840 I'm reading book right now and I'm I'm taking notes. 0:11:59.000 --> 0:12:01.880 I'm taking notes. It's a big one. This is uh 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:04.000 Joe la Poor History of the United States all. 0:12:04.120 --> 0:12:07.120 It's a great book. And I'm gonna record this stuff. 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:09.480 I'm gonna read it, I'm gonna take my time with it, 0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:12.640 and then I'm gonna break this down into note cards, 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:14.880 which I organize, and then that's what I use in 0:12:14.920 --> 0:12:18.720 my writing, in my videos and my talks. So I think, 0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:21.360 if you're not keeping a journal, if you're not recording 0:12:21.400 --> 0:12:25.240 the information that you're consuming or learning, where's it going. 0:12:25.280 --> 0:12:27.760 It's just going in a black hole somewhere. So that's 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:29.560 what they call the second brain. 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:31.480 What's an information diet? 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:36.080 Oh well, what do you just like they say, garbage in, 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:38.679 garbage out right, But what are you eating? 0:12:38.720 --> 0:12:39.600 What are you consuming? 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:43.000 We understand that what we eat affects our health, affects 0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:46.920 our mood, affects, you know, our happiness, and yet people 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:51.840 just consume straight garbage in directly in their ears, directly 0:12:51.880 --> 0:12:54.640 in their eyes all day And I think, you know, 0:12:55.280 --> 0:12:57.200 you definitely see this on the right. This just sort 0:12:57.200 --> 0:13:03.960 of depraved garbage information diet of like the worst slop 0:13:04.080 --> 0:13:07.520 and nonsense, whether it's coming from podcasts or Twitter where 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:12.760 like like, if you're not protecting what's going in your brain, 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:15.280 you're going to destroy your brain. And I think we 0:13:15.400 --> 0:13:18.560 see this happening, like no one should watch as much 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:22.000 cable news or spend as much time on social media 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:25.440 as Donald Trump does, and so you're watching it degrede. 0:13:25.480 --> 0:13:27.800 I think the most telling example of this is like, 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:31.160 at one point in his life, Elon Musk was reading 0:13:31.200 --> 0:13:35.480 Soviet rocket manuals to figure out physics and space and 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:39.000 the aeronautics industry. And now he just spends all his 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:43.760 time on Twitter, you know, mainlining memes, and he's insane. Right, 0:13:43.800 --> 0:13:47.280 he broke his brain. And that's that's why your information die. 0:13:47.280 --> 0:13:49.760 It matters. It's not just the quality, but it's also. 0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:52.199 Like if you consume too much, your brain will break. 0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:55.400 You got to have some some discipline and boundaries too. 0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:59.120 But if it's like that's if it's habitual, right, like, 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:01.840 how do you why do you manage the diet after 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:03.120 you already broke here brain. 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:06.839 I remember growing up as a kid and my friend's 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:10.000 parents watched so much Fox News it was literally burned 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:12.319 in the corner of the TV, and that's. 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:15.680 Not healthy, Like this is not healthy. 0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:19.400 So you gotta say, hey, this is when I get 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:21.600 my news, this when I get my information, This is 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:24.160 who I trust to give me my information. And I 0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:28.240 think people consume way too much real time information and 0:14:28.320 --> 0:14:31.400 don't go back far enough. I think books are better. 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:36.360 I think conversations with real human beings are better. You're 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:41.560 just you're there's this recency bias, and so much of 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:46.920 what's happening right now is ephemeral and trivial and or developing, 0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:49.000 you know what I mean, Like you shouldn't be watching 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:52.800 the news as it's happening unless you are a hedge 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:53.760 fund trader or. 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:55.880 You hold elected office, like wait for. 0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:57.600 Them to figure it out, then check in and get 0:14:57.600 --> 0:15:02.400 that information and check it against your larger historical sense 0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:04.920 of what things being and how the world works. 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:09.080 It just always feels like things are moving so fast sometimes, 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:11.560 And for a person like me, when you talk about 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:14.840 like how you download information, if I'm watching the news 0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:18.320 when things are happening, I retain it way better than 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:19.960 if I have to go back and like sit with 0:15:20.000 --> 0:15:22.600 it sometimes because I feel like it's a lived experience. 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:25.200 You think, so that I mean that is just kind 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:27.240 of what I've been experiencing and working in news. Like 0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:29.600 I literally remember January sixth when they went into the 0:15:29.600 --> 0:15:32.440 Capitol because CNN was on and I watched it. So 0:15:32.480 --> 0:15:34.280 when I was able to talk about it, I watched it, 0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:36.240 like I mean, I talked about it from me watching 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:38.240 in real time, yeah, versus when I go back and 0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:40.080 read things. It's I don't know, it's just different. 0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:41.200 No, I get that. 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:43.640 I think sports is a great example. It's like you 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:46.760 could watch Stephen A. Smith all week, that's not going 0:15:46.840 --> 0:15:48.800 to change what's going to happen on Sunday. Like what's 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:50.440 going to happen on Sunday is what's going to happen 0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:54.400 on Sunday, And so we sometimes conflate like speculating about 0:15:54.400 --> 0:15:58.120 what's going to happen, debating about what happened. You know, 0:16:00.600 --> 0:16:04.520 you know, rumors are this is what's happening, and that's 0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:07.880 not the actual like nut of it. And I think 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:11.960 we consume all this sort of stuff and commentary around 0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:14.440 it and not like the main thing. 0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:16.040 Yeah, I could see that. 0:16:16.440 --> 0:16:19.000 Can wisdom protect you from being influenced because I do 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:21.480 agree with you with the information diet, but they're like 0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:23.160 I can look at a whole bunch of stuff throughout 0:16:23.160 --> 0:16:25.520 the week and not be influenced by it. Sure, I 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:27.720 think it's the influence of it that I think is 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:29.400 worse than just consuming it. 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:31.920 Yeah, and look, I think part of this comes down 0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:36.000 to media literacy, technological literacy. I mean, like, look, something 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:40.280 like twenty percent of Americans think that chocolate milk comes 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:44.440 from brown cows. Like, no, if that's where your starting 0:16:44.440 --> 0:16:49.280 point is, you're gonna have trouble, Like when you are 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:53.320 reading a complicated news story telling you why something happened 0:16:53.400 --> 0:16:55.640 or what it means. So, yeah, you have to have 0:16:56.000 --> 0:16:59.280 a certain amount of intelligence and savvy to be able 0:16:59.320 --> 0:17:02.160 to separate, you know what. And I do think that's 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:04.800 why it's such a battle for attention, is that you know, 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:07.359 some people are up for grabs and some people aren't. 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:08.800 And I think you want to be one of the 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:11.840 people that's not up for grabs because you you sort 0:17:11.880 --> 0:17:13.880 of know what's what. To me, that's like a good 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:17.119 working definition of wisdom, Like I know what's what. I 0:17:17.200 --> 0:17:20.520 know what humans are, I know how humanity works, I 0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:25.159 know history, I know I know enough about the world 0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:28.800 that that I can it. Look, we can all be 0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:33.000 made fools and suckers, but the bigger basis, you know, 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:37.119 protects you against you know, the day to day barrage 0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:37.680 for sure. 0:17:37.920 --> 0:17:40.520 I really know people that think chocolate milk come from 0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:41.280 a black. 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:43.720 House brown that is that is a that is a 0:17:43.800 --> 0:17:44.879 statistical fact. 0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:45.919 It is nuts. 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:53.960 That is like, remember right, that's crazy. 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:57.680 It is crazy. But but you you realize. 0:17:57.200 --> 0:18:01.240 That not everyone's working with the same toolkit. Yeah, and 0:18:01.240 --> 0:18:04.800 and that that that makes it hard to go through life. 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:07.840 How do you attack what book you're going to write about? Like, 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:10.159 you know this was about wisdom takes work? How do 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:12.680 you know? You know I'm going to go this way 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:14.840 on this book and next next time it's about this one. 0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:16.920 So how did you pick this book? And what stood 0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:18.800 out about this that made you want to write about 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:19.920 wisdom taking work? 0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:26.560 It should be zero percent who's drinking milk either, But 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:31.600 look it's a I've been doing the series I did. 0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:34.879 Courage, discipline, justice, and wisdom. Those are the four virtues. 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:37.760 So I knew that was the the arc. That's that's 0:18:37.760 --> 0:18:40.200 what stoicism is based on. Correct, But I wanted to 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:42.919 save wisdom for last because it strikes me as the 0:18:42.960 --> 0:18:46.520 hardest and it strikes me as the thing in exactly 0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:49.160 what we're talking about this world not just of lots 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:52.640 of noise and information, but also AI, like the most essential. 0:18:52.880 --> 0:18:55.760 I think that's the interesting thing about AI is people 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:59.840 are acting like it's going to be this magical thing 0:18:59.840 --> 0:19:01.480 that solves every problem or. 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:02.480 Can teach you anything. 0:19:02.920 --> 0:19:05.200 But in fact, what you need not just to be 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:08.199 able to take advantage of AI because it requires you 0:19:08.240 --> 0:19:09.800