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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts Radio. I'm Joe, Matthew and Washington.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for being with us here on Bloomberg TV and Radio. Indeed,

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Speaker 1: as we consider the Nvidia story today, one hundred billion

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Speaker 1: dollar investment in open AI, and it immediately raises questions

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Speaker 1: about energy, the demand for clean, renewable energy to power

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Speaker 1: so many of these projects and data centers that are

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Speaker 1: sprouting out of the earth like weeds. Energy and securing

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Speaker 1: more of it was a big part of the conversation

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Speaker 1: earlier today with the Governor of Pennsylvania, Josh Shapiro. The Democrat,

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Speaker 1: spent some time with Bloomberg's Tyler Kendall as he attended

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Speaker 1: a thirteen state summit to discuss the future of the

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Speaker 1: PJM interconnection. This is the biggest power grid operator in

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Speaker 1: the United States, not just in the region, serving over

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Speaker 1: sixty seven million customers, stretching from Chicago to New Jersey.

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Speaker 1: It's a lot of power. It's the first conference here

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Speaker 1: gathering the thirteen states, and Tyler started by assis Governor

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Speaker 1: Shapiro about prices, steps that can be taken to lower

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Speaker 1: the cost of energy. Let's listen.

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Speaker 2: We're here in Philadelphia, which is not only the birthplace

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Speaker 2: of democracy was here that PGMs started ninety eight years ago.

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Speaker 2: And I think this conversation that we're having right here

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Speaker 2: at the National Constitution Center is really the first of

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Speaker 2: its kind opportunity for people from all thirteen states, from

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Speaker 2: all the different entities that make up a PJM, are

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Speaker 2: here to have a conversation on how we can enact

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Speaker 2: real reforms so we can hold down costs and increase

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Speaker 2: power generation and give states, the governors and representatives of

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Speaker 2: our states, more of a say in the process. PGM

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Speaker 2: has kind of been a black box for too many years,

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Speaker 2: and as a result of that, they're two darns slow,

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Speaker 2: and they are raising costs at really an alarming rate.

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Speaker 2: And so I think what you're going to hear from

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Speaker 2: all the different states today, by the way, led by

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Speaker 2: Democrats and Republicans, is a desire to see real reform

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Speaker 2: at PGM. I just kicked off the conference here, and

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Speaker 2: I think folks are ready for a good and honest

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Speaker 2: and spirited discussion about how we fix PGM going forward.

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Speaker 3: Well, Governor, since you referenced your opening remarks, you said

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Speaker 3: that if PGM refuses to change, we will be forced

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Speaker 3: to go in a different direction. Do you mean to

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Speaker 3: leave PJM.

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Speaker 2: We're willing to if PGM is unwilling to enact real

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Speaker 2: reforms to give governors and our representatives more of a

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Speaker 2: seat at the table in a say, in these policies

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Speaker 2: so we can both control costs and increase power generation. Listen,

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Speaker 2: I'm in to all of the above. Energy governor overseeing

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Speaker 2: a state that's the second largest energy producer in this country.

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Speaker 2: We need to produce more energy as a nation to

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Speaker 2: give us more economic opportunity and more freedom. And because

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Speaker 2: of PGM, we've been stymied in our efforts. It has

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Speaker 2: slowed us down, and at the same time lowing us down,

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Speaker 2: it's increasing costs. So if PGM is not willing to

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Speaker 2: look in the mirror and really reform itself, then I'm

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Speaker 2: willing to go my own way, and Pennsylvania can stand

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Speaker 2: alone in this effort. We can produce enough energy for us,

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Speaker 2: and we can produce enough energy at a far quicker

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Speaker 2: rate than PGM is able to. Right now, we recognize

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Speaker 2: that that would have a significant impact on these thirteen

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Speaker 2: states that make up PGM, or the twelve other states,

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Speaker 2: I should say, as well as the entire nation, just

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Speaker 2: given the energy dominant position we're standing in. So our

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Speaker 2: first hope is that there'd be real reform. But mark

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Speaker 2: my words, if they're unwilling to do real reform, we're

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Speaker 2: willing to go it alone.

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Speaker 3: Well when would you make that decision? Do you have

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Speaker 3: a timeline or a deadline that you're giving PJM to

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Speaker 3: respond to the changes that you want to see.

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Speaker 2: Well, look, I've already sued PGM successfully when they tried

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Speaker 2: to jack up rates on Pennsylvania consumers and other consumers

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Speaker 2: in them great area. We won that suit and we

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Speaker 2: were able to save consumers nearly twenty billion dollars in

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Speaker 2: added costs. Today, we've just embarked on this important reform conversation.

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Speaker 2: I want to see how that goes. I'm not giving

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Speaker 2: them a long leash here, but i want to give

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Speaker 2: them some time to see if they're willing to reform.

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Speaker 2: If they make clear that they're unwilling to reform, they're

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Speaker 2: going to keep doing it their own way, then we're

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Speaker 2: going to have to go our own way and governor.

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Speaker 3: We know part of this conversation has to do with

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Speaker 3: the power consumption related to big tech and artificial intelligence.

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Speaker 3: Your state has secured a twenty billion dollar investment pledge

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Speaker 3: from Amazon for data centers as one example. How much

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Speaker 3: pain do you think us consumers are going to be

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Speaker 3: willing to bear here when it comes to the need

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Speaker 3: to invest in this critical technology.

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Speaker 2: Well, we have the capacity to be able to do

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Speaker 2: both here in Pennsylvania at affordable rates. We can walk

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Speaker 2: in chew gum here in our commonwealth. We can allow

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Speaker 2: a consumer in their home to be able to flip

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Speaker 2: the switch on and not see added costs when the

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Speaker 2: lights go on in their home, and to know that

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Speaker 2: the lights are going to go on on the hottest

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Speaker 2: days of summer in the coldest days of winter. At

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Speaker 2: the same time, we can be open for business and land.

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Speaker 2: As you noted, an initial twenty billion dollar investment from

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Speaker 2: AWS to build out data centers. We've got other major

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Speaker 2: economic development announcements that are on the way, and I

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Speaker 2: think energy is a critically important component to any of

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Speaker 2: these big energy deals. What we're doing here in Pennsylvania

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Speaker 2: is turning on energy sources like we did at the

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Speaker 2: Old Three Mile Island. We're converting old coal fire power

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Speaker 2: plants into natural gas run power plants, which are both

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Speaker 2: cleaner and are now able to produce new energy onto

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Speaker 2: the grid. The problem is, we're moving quickly in Pennsylvania,

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Speaker 2: but PGM, too, oftentimes is slowing us up. I no

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Speaker 2: longer want to be constrained by PJM moving not at

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Speaker 2: the speed of business, but too darn slow. If they

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Speaker 2: can't move quickly, if they can't reform themselves, We're going

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Speaker 2: to figure out how to do this on our own.

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Speaker 2: Economic development and the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania is directly tied

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Speaker 2: to energy generation, which is also directly tied to keeping

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Speaker 2: consumer costs down. We need to do all of it,

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Speaker 2: we need to do it quickly.

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Speaker 3: And Governor, big tech companies say that they want to

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Speaker 3: pay their fair share when it comes to this, what

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Speaker 3: would that look like in practice.

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Speaker 2: Well, making sure that they invest in creating new energy

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Speaker 2: or paying for the energy they use on the grid

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Speaker 2: if the grid has capacity for both them and consumers

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Speaker 2: and other businesses. That's certainly the kind of deals that

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Speaker 2: we negotiate here in Pennsylvania.

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Speaker 3: And Governor, in the final minutes that we have with you,

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Speaker 3: President Trump last month said that his administration will not

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Speaker 3: approve solar or wind power projects. This as part of

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Speaker 3: a bid to tighten the federal permitting a process around renewables.

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Speaker 3: Has this changed your strategy in Pennsylvania, which is a

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Speaker 3: top energy producing state.

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Speaker 2: Well, look, I'm in all of the above energy governor.

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Speaker 2: I wish the President was in all of the above

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Speaker 2: energy present. The President's actions are making it harder for

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Speaker 2: us here in Pennsylvania. In fact, as a result of

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Speaker 2: cutting a bunch of tax credits for clean energy projects,

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Speaker 2: the President is putting twenty six thousand Pennsylvania jobs, mostly

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Speaker 2: union trade jobs, at risk of being lost when these

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Speaker 2: projects shut down. I mean, I don't know why he's

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Speaker 2: trying to make it harder for us to generate energy.

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Speaker 2: We should generate solar and wind energy, natural gas energy,

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Speaker 2: and other nuclear and other forms of energy. I don't

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Speaker 2: know why he's taking these steps that are making it

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Speaker 2: harder for us in Pennsylvania. I'm a governor that wants

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Speaker 2: to unleash our full potential. We do that by having

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Speaker 2: a full range of energy options available. I think the

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Speaker 2: President's policies are misguided. It's going to put people out

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Speaker 2: of work, and it's going to make it harder for

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Speaker 2: Pennsylvania to compete.

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Speaker 3: And lastly, a governor just sticking on the President's policies

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Speaker 3: because part of the conversation when we are talking about

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Speaker 3: energy production does have to do with the workforce. And

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Speaker 3: we saw over the weekend the administration move to impose

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Speaker 3: a one hundred one thousand dollars fee for each one

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Speaker 3: B visa applicants. I'm wondering if you see this for

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Speaker 3: impacting any of the sectors that we're talking about here,

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Speaker 3: particularly around tech, as Pennsylvania wants to attract those workers

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Speaker 3: and those investments from these big companies.

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Speaker 2: I think the president's immigration policies are making it harder

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Speaker 2: for us to compete, and I hear that on our

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Speaker 2: farm lands in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania all the way

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Speaker 2: to our universities here in Pennsylvania. When we can't attract

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Speaker 2: great talent to be able to produce our food or

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Speaker 2: to be able to produce the next major invention or

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Speaker 2: innovation that makes us less competitive as a nation. The

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Speaker 2: President's immigration policies, combined with his tariff policies, are making

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Speaker 2: it harder for us to compete and driving up the

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Speaker 2: cost of goods in this commonwealth and across this country.

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Speaker 2: I think what the President's doing is harming America, isolating

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Speaker 2: America and making it harder for workers here in Pennsylvania,

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Speaker 2: from our farmlands to our universities.

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Speaker 1: Governor Joshapiro, Democrat from Pennsylvania, in conversation with Tyler Kendall,