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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: What was strangers? First of all, there was no forced entry,

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Speaker 2: like if it were a street robbery or something you'd

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Speaker 2: see the door broken down. They didn't take anything except

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Speaker 2: some cash that she had in a drawer, and so

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Speaker 2: she called a locksmith to get her locks changed. And

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Speaker 2: the locksmith said, when he looked at how the whole

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Speaker 2: thing had happened, he said, this was definitely a professional job.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical

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Speaker 1: true crime podcast Tenfold War Wicked and the co host

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Speaker 1: of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right. I've traveled

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Speaker 1: around the world interviewing people for the show, and they

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Speaker 1: are all excellent writers. They've had so many great true

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Speaker 1: crimes stories, and now we want to tell you those

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Speaker 1: stories with details that have never been published. Tenfold War

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Speaker 1: Wicked presents Wicked Words is about the choices that writers make,

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Speaker 1: good and bad. It's a deep dive into the stories

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Speaker 1: behind the stories. One of the most dangerous jobs you

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Speaker 1: can have in some parts of the world is being

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Speaker 1: a journalist author Catherine Corcoran penned the book In the

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Speaker 1: Mouth of the Wolf, about a groundbreaking reporter who risked

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Speaker 1: her life to expose corruption in Mexico and then she

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Speaker 1: was murdered. This story is important to you, and it's

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Speaker 1: a personal story to you. You and I spoke on

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Speaker 1: the same panel at the Texas Book Festival, and it

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Speaker 1: was really great hearing the story from your point of view.

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Speaker 1: I usually ask people at the very end, how does

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Speaker 1: the story impact you? But how the story impacted you

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Speaker 1: is actually why you began reporting the story to begin with.

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Speaker 1: So just kind of tell us a little bit about

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Speaker 1: the process of what happened where you were rived at

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Speaker 1: the book, which is In the Mouth of the Wolf.

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Speaker 2: I was working as the Associated Press Bureau chief for

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Speaker 2: Mexico and Central America, and in Mexico there began to

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Speaker 2: be a spike in journalist killings, kind of all of

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Speaker 2: a sudden, out of nowhere. It impacted me several ways.

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Speaker 2: First of all, we were covering these killings as a story,

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Speaker 2: and second of all, because of the killings, even though

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Speaker 2: the targets of these killings tended to be very local

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Speaker 2: journalists with smaller media outlets, We couldn't assume as international

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Speaker 2: journalists that it wouldn't hit us. So we had to

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Speaker 2: change dramatically how we covered Mexico and our security protocols

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Speaker 2: and just things we didn't have to do before because

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Speaker 2: it was a fairly quiet country beforehand. So we had

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Speaker 2: to send our journalists out in teams. No one could

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Speaker 2: go alone. We had to evaluate the terrain and the

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Speaker 2: area before we sent anybody. We had had GPS tracking.

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Speaker 2: All that was new, and so it was really much

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Speaker 2: a story I was living on several levels. But also

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Speaker 2: what concerned me so much is that nothing was being done.

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Speaker 2: It just kept getting worse, and in fact, this year

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Speaker 2: has been a record for the number of journalists killed

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Speaker 2: in Mexico, and there was so little transparency around these cases.

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Speaker 2: We didn't know why they were happening. The government was

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Speaker 2: telling us that if a journalist was murdered, it was

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Speaker 2: because they were corrupt, it was because they were narco

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Speaker 2: journalists working for the cartels. Certainly that phenomenon did exist

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Speaker 2: and still does, but the numbers were so high it

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Speaker 2: was like, that doesn't make sense. It couldn't be all

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Speaker 2: of them.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about the categories of journalists then, and now

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Speaker 1: in Mexico from your book, my understanding is there were

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Speaker 1: the journalists who were the honest, wanting to expose corruption

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Speaker 1: and the cartels and the government. There is the mouthpiece

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Speaker 1: the journalists who were the mouthpiece for the government, and

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Speaker 1: then there seemed to be people in the middle who

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Speaker 1: were just playing scared. Is that right?

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Speaker 2: Yes, there were several levels of journalists or types of journalists.

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Speaker 2: The press in Mexico traditionally had been controlled by the

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Speaker 2: government because the country was ruled by a one party

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Speaker 2: authoritarian system. That system broke up in the year two

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Speaker 2: thousand when they had their first democratically elected president, and

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Speaker 2: the press followed suit. The press became more open, more critical,

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Speaker 2: more independent. But because the history had been of control,

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Speaker 2: a lot of media continued in that and they received

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Speaker 2: huge amounts of money from the government to maintain that line.

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Speaker 2: So there was that level when the narcos came in

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Speaker 2: and the powers that they are now and that they

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Speaker 2: started to be at the time, they started to control

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Speaker 2: the press much in the manner that the old party

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Speaker 2: system had done it, and so they started paying journalists

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Speaker 2: and telling journalists what to write and not to write.

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Speaker 2: And some journalists because they were used to that system.

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Speaker 2: They just started working for new bosses, not realizing that

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Speaker 2: the consequence was going to be much more deadly if

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Speaker 2: they fell out a line. And I mean under the

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Speaker 2: authoritarian party, there were hardly any journalists killed for decades.

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Speaker 2: Most of them were under control. So there were the

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Speaker 2: government journalists, the narco journalists, the journalists who just decided

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Speaker 2: we're going to stay out of this, We're not going

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Speaker 2: to publish anything controversial, just for safety. And then there

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Speaker 2: were the journalists what I would call the new wave,

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Speaker 2: the new generation, who really believed in the press as

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Speaker 2: an important part of developing this new democracy, that the

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Speaker 2: press was important for informing the public, letting the public

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Speaker 2: know what's going on, helping the public make decisions. And

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Speaker 2: they were in this new vein, and they were the

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Speaker 2: ones who became harassed. Outside of the narco journalists who

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Speaker 2: maybe got crossways with their bosses, they became harassed and followed.

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Speaker 2: In the case of Raheina Martinez, who is the protest

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Speaker 2: agonist of the book, when she was murdered in twenty twelve,

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Speaker 2: it was the first time we could say, clearly, this

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Speaker 2: is not a narco journalist, this is a very good

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Speaker 2: tenacious journalist who produced very good journalism. She was known

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Speaker 2: nationally for her work, and that was the first time,

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Speaker 2: even though the government wouldn't say it was related to

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Speaker 2: her work, we could say this is a hit on

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Speaker 2: a journalist. And so I think that's why that case,

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Speaker 2: of all these other cases, stuck with me. But also

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Speaker 2: because I had spoken to her on the phone. I

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Speaker 2: had tried to hire her, and she was too busy,

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Speaker 2: she couldn't take the story. But the fact that I

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Speaker 2: even had that brief interaction with her, when I found

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Speaker 2: out she had been murdered, I remember saying her because

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Speaker 2: it didn't fit with the story that we were getting.

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Speaker 1: How do journalists in Mexico who are of the class

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Speaker 1: of Rahena, who don't want to be bought, they're brave

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Speaker 1: enough to report on some controversial things, how do they

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Speaker 1: stay safe on a day to day basis if they

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Speaker 1: literally have no government, no real powerful entity protecting them.

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Speaker 2: At first, they didn't. They were just kind of out

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Speaker 2: there on their own, you know, just going after the

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Speaker 2: story and not really thinking about the consequences. But as

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Speaker 2: these killings start to increase, they started more informal networks

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Speaker 2: of support, which is one thing that Raheina did is

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Speaker 2: she developed her own circle around her of journalists she

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Speaker 2: could trust for that reason, for her own security. She

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Speaker 2: had a very small circle of friends and led a

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Speaker 2: very hermetic life because she knew that there were many

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Speaker 2: ways that her critics could get at her, like going

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Speaker 2: after her family, for one thing, and so she actually

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Speaker 2: made up a story about her own history and family

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Speaker 2: and about where they were and where they were from

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Speaker 2: so nobody could go looking for them.

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Speaker 1: Wow, let's start with Rahina. Tell me about who she

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Speaker 1: was as a person and sort of her path towards

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Speaker 1: where she ended up in two thousand and twelve.

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Speaker 2: According to her friends, she had a very strong personality.

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Speaker 2: She was very opinionated and could be kind of dismissive

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Speaker 2: at times, but also as a reporter, they said she

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Speaker 2: was always very polite. She was very formal and very polite,

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Speaker 2: but in her casual circle she was very critical and

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Speaker 2: to the point where they found it entertaining because she

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Speaker 2: was this tiny woman of indigenous roots, not the profile

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Speaker 2: of a person who was normally in the press in

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Speaker 2: those days, and super opinionated with this big personality. They

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Speaker 2: called her brava, which is like harsh but they kind

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Speaker 2: of even found it endearing in a way. Those who

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Speaker 2: admired her in her close circle, they found it very

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Speaker 2: endearing the way she was always out front and always

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Speaker 2: saying exactly what she thought, because that's not how the

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Speaker 2: press worked at the time, but also that's in polite

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Speaker 2: Mexican society also not what's done. It's a very indirect

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Speaker 2: kind of communication. But she was very direct, very opinionated,

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Speaker 2: and very dedicated to telling the truth, and that made

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Speaker 2: her stand out from the very beginning of her career,

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Speaker 2: and because of that, she suffered a lot of harassment

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Speaker 2: over the years of her career and was very disliked

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Speaker 2: by the powers that be for all the trouble that

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Speaker 2: her stories would cause.

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Speaker 1: Where was she located in Mexico.

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Speaker 2: She was in the city of Halapa, which is the

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Speaker 2: capital of the state of Vera Cruz, which is on

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Speaker 2: the Gulf coast of Mexico. It's kind of a long,

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Speaker 2: thin state along the Gulf of Mexico, and it was

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Speaker 2: considered safer than Mexico City in this time, in twenty twelve,

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Speaker 2: well up to I would say two thousand and ten,

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Speaker 2: that's when the journalist killing started in huge numbers in

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Speaker 2: that state in Vera Cruz, maybe a few years before that.

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Speaker 2: Starting in two thousand and seven, everything started to become

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Speaker 2: more dangerous. Before that, it was a fairly quiet state.

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Speaker 2: It's always been a state controlled by mafia's with a

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Speaker 2: lot of corruption. And there's a huge port in Vera

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Speaker 2: Cruz also named Vera Cruz, where it's the largest incoming

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Speaker 2: port in Mexico, so a lot of contraband comes through there.

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Speaker 2: It's a very remote state as well, and so they

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Speaker 2: had airplanes full of cocaine, but it was all kept

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Speaker 2: under the radar. It was all very quiet until about

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Speaker 2: two thousand and seven. But even before two thousand and seven,

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Speaker 2: she did suffer harassment for her stories, even before the

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Speaker 2: situation became so dangerous.

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Speaker 1: Give me a few examples of some of the stories

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Speaker 1: that we're talking about.

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Speaker 2: Her passion was social justice issues, and when she started

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Speaker 2: her career in the nineteen eighties, the communities that were

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Speaker 2: marginalized or had no power, no voice, were never covered

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Speaker 2: in the press because the press was still very official,

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Speaker 2: and so she would go out and ask questions and

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Speaker 2: travel to remote parts of the state to find out

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Speaker 2: what was really going on. Because these communities were often

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Speaker 2: exploited or they were kicked off their lane, and indigenous communities,

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Speaker 2: landless farmers, and so she would actually go to these

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Speaker 2: areas and talk to people and find out what was

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Speaker 2: really going on instead of following the official story. So

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Speaker 2: she would publish these stories that were pretty amazing for

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Speaker 2: her time, because no one wrote these things. No one

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Speaker 2: bothered to go out and find out what's going on,

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Speaker 2: and no one wrote these things, and almost inevitably the

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Speaker 2: culprit was the government. The government was somehow trying to

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Speaker 2: control or abuse various communities that they felt were not

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Speaker 2: with the program, and so like laborers, union workers, indigenous communities.

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Speaker 3: So she wrote all those issues.

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Speaker 2: That nobody else was writing, and her stories for the

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Speaker 2: time were pretty astonishing. She did a three part series

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Speaker 2: on the abuse of laborers and the beer plants and beer,

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Speaker 2: of course, Mexican beer is very famous. There was a

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Speaker 2: huge plant in Vera, Cruz and she wrote a three

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Speaker 2: part series about how these workers were being entirely abused

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Speaker 2: under their union contract, et cetera. She wrote about remote

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Speaker 2: I mean he's not getting vaccines. There was a measles

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Speaker 2: outbreak in a very poor community with no vaccines from

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Speaker 2: the state she wrote about indigenous women being forced sterilized.

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Speaker 2: She wrote all kinds of things, but eventually it led

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Speaker 2: her to the government, because the government had the control

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Speaker 2: and also had the resources. So she started investigating how

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Speaker 2: the government spent its money or didn't spend its money.

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Speaker 2: Vera Cruz, because of the Gulf, is a state where

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Speaker 2: there are a lot of natural disasters, hurricanes, storms, flooding.

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Speaker 2: She would find cases where victims would be homeless out

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Speaker 2: on the street and the relief supplies would be sitting

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Speaker 2: in a government warehouse. As I say, the guy was

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Speaker 2: astonished when I went back to look at her stories.

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Speaker 3: I mean they were endless.

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Speaker 2: But probably her biggest story was she wrote about the

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Speaker 2: rape of an elderly Indigenous woman by some soldiers in

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Speaker 2: a very remote community, and the woman died from her injuries,

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Speaker 2: and she started reporting and it was a story about

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Speaker 2: this woman had been attacked by soldiers who were camped

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Speaker 2: out nearby doing some operation. And it started out with

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Speaker 2: the government saying, you know, we'll get justice. This is

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Speaker 2: an outrage, and then the President of Mexico came in

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Speaker 2: and got involved. Because the army is a very important

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Speaker 2: institution and the credibility of the army in Mexico is paramount,

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Speaker 2: and so when the president came in, his concern was

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Speaker 2: saving the reputation of the army, and the story completely

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Speaker 2: changed to where the woman died of natural causes, just

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Speaker 2: kind of an outrageous, obvious cover up of what had happened.

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Speaker 2: And she wrote about that to the very end, and

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Speaker 2: every piece that didn't make sense and every part of

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Speaker 2: the cover up, and that's when she really earned her

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Speaker 2: national reputation.

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Speaker 1: You talked about her being harassed. What were some of

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Speaker 1: the examples that you learned of how she was harassed

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Speaker 1: before she was killed.

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Speaker 2: The government cut her off from official information, She didn't

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Speaker 2: receive presser Lisa's, she was barred from press conferences. She

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Speaker 2: always felt that she was being followed or watched. It

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Speaker 2: was almost a given at that time that your phone

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Speaker 2: would be intervened somehow, and early on, before the situation

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Speaker 2: became really dangerous, after every event or press conference she covered,

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Speaker 2: she would ask someone to accompany her back to her house.

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Speaker 2: It's a very walkable city where she was, and or

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Speaker 2: sometimes she take a taxi, but she would always ask

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Speaker 2: someone to accompany her because she didn't want to leave

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Speaker 2: an event alone. She had her home broken into and

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Speaker 2: her computer stolen. Right before she was murdered. She had

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Speaker 2: a very strange kind of break in where everyone took

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Speaker 2: it as a sign that is meant to be a warning.

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Speaker 1: How strange.

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Speaker 2: What was strangest. First of all, there was no forced entry,

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Speaker 2: like if it were a street robbery or something, you'd

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Speaker 2: see the door broken down. They didn't take anything except

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Speaker 2: some cash that she had in a drawer, And then

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Speaker 2: they went into her bathroom and steamed up the bathroom,

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Speaker 2: and she had these decorative soaps, and they crushed all

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Speaker 2: the soaps because they'd gotten wet. And so it was

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Speaker 2: just very odd because coincidentally, she had been away on

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Speaker 2: vacation but was called back early to do a story,

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Speaker 2: and so she arrived at her home shortly after this happened.

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Speaker 2: Because it looked as if someone had taken a shower

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Speaker 2: in her bathroom by all of her soaps were destroyed,

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Speaker 2: people took that as a sign of we can get

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Speaker 2: into your most inner parts of your house and most

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Speaker 2: private areas of your house. And so she called a

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Speaker 2: locksmith to get her locks changed. And the locksmith said,

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Speaker 2: when he looked at how the whole thing had happened.

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Speaker 2: He said, this was definitely a professional job.

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Speaker 1: When we're talking about suspects, let's just start with this

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Speaker 1: break in and what we think is a warning. Is

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Speaker 1: this certainly government or is this cartel, mafia or are

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Speaker 1: these all conflated.

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Speaker 2: They're pretty much conflated. They were at this time. She

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Speaker 2: didn't cover cartels. It was very clear that you couldn't

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Speaker 2: say they were the culprit like they did with so

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Speaker 2: many of these other journalists. And also it wasn't a

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Speaker 2: killing that was the style.

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Speaker 3: Of the cartel.

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Speaker 2: The cartel would wait for you to come out of

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Speaker 2: your house and just shoot you up. Sometimes they'd go

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Speaker 2: into the house and shoot you up.

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Speaker 1: And put you on display, sometimes as a warning.

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Speaker 3: Exactly.

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Speaker 2: They were very public kinds of killings, and they engendered

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Speaker 2: a lot of fear among journalists and everybody. This one

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Speaker 2: was someone entered her house in the middle of the

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Speaker 2: night and beat her severely as if maybe torturing her,

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Speaker 2: and then strangled her and she wasn't found for about

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Speaker 2: twelve fourteen hours, And it was just such an unusual

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Speaker 2: style of murder, and the government used that to say

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Speaker 2: that it had to have been someone she knew, and

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Speaker 2: someone she led into the house, even though everyone knew

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Speaker 2: that she didn't let anyone, hardly anyone into her house.

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Speaker 1: What preceded this was there a story that she was

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Speaker 1: working on. What do we think was the trigger here

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Speaker 1: with whoever killed her?

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Speaker 2: Initially, there were so many possible triggers because of all

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Speaker 2: she had written over the years, but she hadn't written

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Speaker 2: anything particularly controversial leading up to her death, which is

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Speaker 2: why it was such a mystery. But there was one story.

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Speaker 2: She worked for a national investigative magazine called Prossso, and

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Speaker 2: three weeks before she was killed, there was a small

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Speaker 2: article on the inside of Processo magazine about two allegedly

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Speaker 2: corrupt politicians in Vera Cruz in Halapa, where she was working,

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Speaker 2: and how one had been, according to protected witnesses, was

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Speaker 2: tied to a drug cartel and the other one who

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Speaker 2: was tied to illegal enrichment, like he had all this

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Speaker 2: wealth that didn't make sense with his public servant salary.

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Speaker 2: And when that article was published, all of the magazines

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Speaker 2: in Jalapa were stolen before they reached the newsstands, and

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Speaker 2: that was an old school tactic by the ruling party,

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Speaker 2: the authoritarian party, if they didn't like something that was

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Speaker 2: going to be published. They would steal copies so people

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Speaker 2: couldn't read it, and of course in the old days

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Speaker 2: pre internet, that would be very effective.

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Speaker 3: Well, they still use.

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Speaker 2: That from time to time, more as a message because

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Speaker 2: you could obviously read the article online. So she knew

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Speaker 2: they were upset about that article, but she did not

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Speaker 2: write it. It was a national correspondent who had come

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Speaker 2: in from Mexico City who wrote it, and he and

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Speaker 2: others immediately thought that was the article that got her killed.

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Speaker 2: For me investigating, I dismissed it at first because it

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Speaker 2: was a very small article. It wasn't on the cover.

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Speaker 2: Usually they would steal the magazines if there was like

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Speaker 2: a big splash on the cover about some evil doings,

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Speaker 2: and it wasn't on the cover. And also there had

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Speaker 2: been articles written over the years about these two politicians.

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Speaker 2: They had been accused of all kinds of things in

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Speaker 2: the press, and so I've thought, why would this small

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Speaker 2: little article particularly bother them. One of them was the

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Speaker 2: head of state security in Vera Cruz and he was

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Speaker 2: accused of using the state security to protect drug lords.

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Speaker 2: So there were all kinds of worse accusations. So that's

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Speaker 2: why I didn't understand why that article would have caused

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Speaker 2: her death.

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Speaker 1: Tell me what happens that day? What do we know

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Speaker 1: pro seeded that day that it happens.

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Speaker 2: She had a pretty routine day. She worked for the

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Speaker 2: news service for Processo also, so when you work for

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Speaker 2: a new service, you just churn out kind of spot

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Speaker 2: news articles. And she wrote three articles that day. One

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Speaker 2: was about some police who had been arrested because they

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Speaker 2: were discovered to be corrupt. Another one was about a

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Speaker 2: political official who had been found dead in his house.

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Speaker 2: But they were like police bladder.

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Speaker 3: Kinds of stories.

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Speaker 2: She wasn't investigating anything, and they would be the kind

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Speaker 2: of stories that other media would be covering as well.

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Speaker 3: So she wrote three stories.

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Speaker 2: She went to buy some material to have some clothes made.

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Speaker 2: Kind of a very routine day. She went shopping, and

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Speaker 2: then she went home and closed her door. Because on

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Speaker 2: the weekends, it was a Friday, she really disappeared on

365
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Speaker 2: the weekend. She stayed inside or did all her chores,

366
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Speaker 2: did her writing, did a lot of things, but was

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Speaker 2: not social at all on the weekends. When she went

368
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Speaker 2: inside and closed her door on Friday night, people normally

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00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:26,919
Speaker 2: didn't see her again until Monday morning, and so that's

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Speaker 2: when the crime occurred, was very early Saturday morning. And

371
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Speaker 2: that's why it took people so long to discover it,

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Speaker 2: because normally she wasn't around out and about anyway.

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Speaker 1: How was she initially discovered and then what are her injuries?

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Speaker 2: She was discovered late the next day on Saturday afternoon,

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Speaker 2: about six o'clock because her neighbor saw that her gate

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00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:05,680
Speaker 2: had been left ajar, but also her front door had

377
00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:09,000
Speaker 2: been left ajar, which was highly unusual. She was very

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Speaker 2: security conscious and everyone knew that. Her neighbors knew that,

379
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Speaker 2: and her neighbor, not wanting to pry, kind of said, well,

380
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Speaker 2: she'll show up eventually. And after some time had passed

381
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,040
Speaker 2: and another neighbor had passed by and called her name,

382
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Speaker 2: and she didn't answer. She wasn't answering her phone. Finally

383
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Speaker 2: the neighbor called the police and that's when they discovered her.

384
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Speaker 2: What about her injuries, Well, she looked very badly beaten.

385
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Speaker 2: There was some blood. It looked as if they had

386
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Speaker 2: taken a cleaning rag and strangled her. But it looked

387
00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:42,399
Speaker 2: like she was tortured quite a bit. She had a

388
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Speaker 2: broken jaw and the forensics people said it was from

389
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Speaker 2: brass knuckles.

390
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Speaker 1: Wow.

391
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Speaker 2: She had bruises up and down her arms and legs.

392
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Speaker 2: She was in a pair of blue jeans, and the

393
00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:55,920
Speaker 2: knees were dirty and bloody, as if she had been

394
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Speaker 2: on her knees when some of this was happening, and

395
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Speaker 2: it appeared that they had surprised her in her bathroom.

396
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:07,080
Speaker 2: The rest of the house there wasn't blood or there

397
00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:10,320
Speaker 2: wasn't any kind of physical disturbance in the rest of

398
00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:12,960
Speaker 2: the house, just in the bathroom, and so it looked

399
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Speaker 2: as if they had surprised her.

400
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Speaker 3: Whoever it was.

401
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:20,200
Speaker 1: What do police investigators believe happened that early Saturday morning

402
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:20,600
Speaker 1: to her?

403
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,639
Speaker 2: It depends on who you ask. The government created a

404
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:29,520
Speaker 2: story literally a couple hours after her body had been discovered.

405
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:33,560
Speaker 2: Even before they started the investigation, they were just collecting evidence.

406
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,359
Speaker 2: From the very beginning, they said it had nothing to

407
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,160
Speaker 2: do with her work. They said the motive was robbery,

408
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,440
Speaker 2: and then over time they created a story about her

409
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:46,520
Speaker 2: living this double life behind closed doors where she was

410
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,560
Speaker 2: dating a street criminal and had let him into the

411
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,640
Speaker 2: house because they had a romantic relationship, and that's how

412
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:54,720
Speaker 2: she ended up dead because he went there to rob

413
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,040
Speaker 2: her and she let him in. They created a whole

414
00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:59,920
Speaker 2: story about what happened on Friday night, that this guy

415
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:02,520
Speaker 2: had come in with one of his friends, telling his friend,

416
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Speaker 2: we're going to rob her. She let them in. They

417
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,760
Speaker 2: were partying, drinking beer, dancing. They got into an argument,

418
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,720
Speaker 2: and then he wanted to steal some money, so he

419
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Speaker 2: was torturing her to find out where the money was,

420
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Speaker 2: and then after they got it, he'd strangled her and

421
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,320
Speaker 2: they left. That was the official story based on the

422
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 2: confession of the other guy who was there, But the

423
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:26,160
Speaker 2: guy who supposedly did it disappeared right after the crime.

424
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Speaker 2: He's never been found, and the guy who made the

425
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,880
Speaker 2: confession later said that he didn't know this woman. He'd

426
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 2: never been in her house. And the interesting thing is

427
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:37,159
Speaker 2: they never found any physical evidence that either one of

428
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,679
Speaker 2: these men were inside her house.

429
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:44,159
Speaker 1: So the police have immediately come up with a suspect

430
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:46,920
Speaker 1: within the first few hours. They have a story that's

431
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 1: been concocted.

432
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,119
Speaker 2: They had the story concocted almost immediately, so they had

433
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:55,120
Speaker 2: to go look for this boyfriend in quotes. And what

434
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,480
Speaker 2: was interesting is when they started the investigation and interviewing

435
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 2: people who knew her, everyone was asked if she had

436
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 2: a boyfriend, and everyone was asked what her personal life

437
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,720
Speaker 2: was like and if she drank a lot. They didn't

438
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,400
Speaker 2: ask anything about her work. They asked about her personal life.

439
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:12,879
Speaker 2: So they had to go looking for the boyfriend.

440
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:13,919
Speaker 1: She didn't have a boyfriend.

441
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 2: I'm assuming no, she did not, not in this time,

442
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 2: and again that was part of her protection, is she

443
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,680
Speaker 2: was very guarded about who she knew or hung out with.

444
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 2: So they tried, from my point of view looking at

445
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:29,439
Speaker 2: the investigation, they tried many ways to find the boyfriend,

446
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 2: or to create the boyfriend. I would say so first

447
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 2: they tried to make it one of her close friends,

448
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 2: one of the journalists, and he had an alibi that

449
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:42,639
Speaker 2: they couldn't do anything about, so they had to throw

450
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,119
Speaker 2: him out as a suspect. And then they went after

451
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:49,880
Speaker 2: some guys in the neighborhood who supposedly this one street

452
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,720
Speaker 2: drug addict to supposedly told someone he was dating a reporter.

453
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 2: Then he had an alibi for that night. And it

454
00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 2: took them several months, but then they ended up with

455
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 2: these two guys. I believe they arrested them six months

456
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 2: after her killing. They homed in on these two guys.

457
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 1: Are the police really under pressure to find who killed

458
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:13,399
Speaker 1: this journalists? Can't they just sort of let it become

459
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 1: a cold case. Why do they have to keep trying

460
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:17,360
Speaker 1: to find someone.

461
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 2: Because that, again is sort of an institutional tradition in Mexico.

462
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 2: The justice system under the authoritarian government was not about justice.

463
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,639
Speaker 2: It was about keeping the party in power, and that

464
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:34,920
Speaker 2: meant getting rid of any uncomfortable cases. The justice system

465
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 2: under the ruling party for many years, was about going

466
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 2: after your enemies and making political problems go away. This

467
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 2: case was an enormous political problem for them. It was

468
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 2: getting international attention because it was so clear that she

469
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 2: was the real deal and was likely murdered for her work.

470
00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,200
Speaker 2: So they had to make the noise go away as

471
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:04,919
Speaker 2: quickly as possible by saying they had someone. The person confessed,

472
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,199
Speaker 2: the person was convicted, They put him in jail and

473
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,199
Speaker 2: throw away the key, so that any time anyone brings

474
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,159
Speaker 2: up the case, they say it's been resolved.

475
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:16,399
Speaker 3: We did our jobs. Justice was served.

476
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 1: Wow, So six months past they find this man, Is

477
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 1: that right?

478
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,399
Speaker 2: They find the accomplice, not the guy who actually did it,

479
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:28,640
Speaker 2: and they arrest him and say he confessed, and when

480
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,399
Speaker 2: he gets before the judge for the first time. He

481
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,359
Speaker 2: tells the judge that he's been tortured into confessing.

482
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:36,200
Speaker 1: Oh wow.

483
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 2: And in Mexico, under the recent justice reform at the time,

484
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 2: it became law that any testimony extracted by torture was

485
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 2: inadmissible in court. That's why he said he was tortured.

486
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 2: He was actually convicted, but the conviction was overturned because

487
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:53,360
Speaker 2: of the torture.

488
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:54,679
Speaker 1: Were they able to prove it?

489
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 3: They did the.

490
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 2: I don't know if you're familiar with the protocol, a

491
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:00,040
Speaker 2: un protocol.

492
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 1: That they do, so like the polygraph test.

493
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 2: Yes, the test came up negative, but they did it

494
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:09,120
Speaker 2: six months after he was captured, and so they said, oh,

495
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 2: no evidence of torture. But a tribunal there because torture

496
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,199
Speaker 2: is very common as an investigation tool in Mexico, and

497
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 2: so a tribunal did rule that he had been tortured.

498
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 2: And throughout the conviction and the thing that's another very

499
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,919
Speaker 2: strange element of the cases. As soon as he was freed,

500
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 2: he disappeared, probably thought he was going to be killed,

501
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 2: and there was this very concerted effort to go out

502
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,640
Speaker 2: and find him and find a new judge that would

503
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 2: reinstate the sentence, and they did it. They found him,

504
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 2: they got the sentence reinstated, and he's now serving thirty

505
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 2: eight year sentence for being an accomplice in the case.

506
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,640
Speaker 1: And they never found the guy who they say actually

507
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 1: murdered Rahina.

508
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 2: Yes, they never found him. That person actually did exist,

509
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,920
Speaker 2: but he disappeared about a week after her murder. Of course,

510
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,159
Speaker 2: the official story is he went on the lamb, but

511
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 2: the unofficial story is he could have just appeared because

512
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 2: he knew something.

513
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 1: Writing this book, reporting on the story, were you concerned

514
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 1: for your own safety? At what level did you really

515
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 1: feel like you were risking something here?

516
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,199
Speaker 2: The biggest fear I had was being discovered, because I

517
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:18,639
Speaker 2: knew if I was discovered, that would compromise my safety.

518
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 2: But if I had any indication that I was discovered,

519
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 2: I could leave. So I wasn't so concerned about my

520
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 2: personal safety in that regard, but in terms of the

521
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 2: safety of the people who were talking to me, because

522
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,399
Speaker 2: they couldn't leave, and so if I was discovered and

523
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 2: they were discovered, my biggest fear is that something would

524
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 2: happen to them.

525
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 1: And I'm assuming Rahina's family is apprehensive about coming forward

526
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 1: because she's created a whole faux family, right, I mean,

527
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 1: she didn't acknowledge who her family was to keep them safe.

528
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 2: They haven't spoken at all and they have not wanted

529
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 2: to speak about this at all. And actually, this was

530
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 2: one detail that really got to me. Her parents didn't

531
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 2: go to her funeral. Imagine that you could not go

532
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 2: to your child's funeral because it would be too dangerous.

533
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 2: That's why they didn't go. Her siblings said to her parents,

534
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 2: you cannot go, it's too dangerous. They lived outside of

535
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 2: the area, they weren't local, and that's why she made

536
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 2: up a story, because she didn't want anyone to find.

537
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 3: Out exactly where they were.

538
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 2: And for that reason, they appointed one sibling to be

539
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 2: sort of the representative of the family.

540
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 1: Did her family her siblings, were they harassed or have

541
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 1: they been generally left alone over the past ten years.

542
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 2: I can't say for sure because they wouldn't talk to me.

543
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true.

544
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, but there were reports that yes, they had been harassed.

545
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 1: You know, you had had a conversation with Raheina in

546
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 1: the past, you had respected her as a journalist. You

547
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 1: were journalists working in Mexico writing this book. It must

548
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 1: have been terrifying to read the det tills of what

549
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 1: happened to her. It just sounds so incredibly vicious.

550
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 3: It was very vicious.

551
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 2: There was a story of another journalist who was also

552
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 2: working on the case, where his spouse told me that

553
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 2: she had rarely ever seen him cry, but he cried

554
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 2: when he read the details of the case.

555
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 3: It was terrible.

556
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 2: But also because of the circumstances I was in trying

557
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 2: to get the information and how it was a very difficult,

558
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 2: dangerous situation, I really kept my emotions out of it,

559
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 2: I think mostly because of the work I had to do.

560
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 2: I didn't intentionally do that, but I felt like I

561
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 2: sort of shut down and went into reporter mode because

562
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 2: if I was emotional about it, I could make mistakes.

563
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 3: I had to be.

564
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 2: Very careful and calculating about reporting this story.

565
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 1: Did you set out to try to figure out who

566
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 1: killed her? Was that the purpose of this book?

567
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 3: Yes?

568
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 2: I really wanted to find out who killed her.

569
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 1: That seems impossible to me. That just seems so difficult

570
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 1: in Mexico or really any place it is.

571
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 2: It's sort of like the idealism of a journalist that

572
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 2: you start out with this goal, but then you decide

573
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 2: how far can I go with this? For example, I

574
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 2: knew I had a story, whether I solved the case

575
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 2: or not, because of how the whole case was handled

576
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 2: and whether the government was actually behind her killing or not.

577
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 2: They certainly were behind the cover up. I think that

578
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 2: was much easier to demonstrate, and so why The question

579
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 2: is why, and it just shows the injustice to the

580
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 2: citizens that this is how they solve cases. This was

581
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 2: sort of a crime in itself, and that part of

582
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 2: the story was easy to document. I waited for three

583
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 2: years just because I couldn't, you know, with my job,

584
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 2: I really didn't have time. And I thought after three

585
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 2: years the situation would calm down and people would loosen

586
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 2: up and people would start talking because before they weren't

587
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 2: allowed to talk. So if you go to someone for

588
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 2: the first time who hasn't spoken before, your chances of

589
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 2: getting something is pretty high. The problem was what I

590
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 2: didn't realize un till I got there is to this

591
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 2: day there are people who will not talk about this case.

592
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 1: So how far were you able to get Well?

593
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 2: I feel that I found significant information that had never

594
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 2: been published before.

595
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 1: Do you think that it helps point to the killer

596
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 1: or is it just deeper research and deeper information about

597
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 1: just the level of corruption that is happening in Mexico.

598
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 3: I think it's both.

599
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 2: I think there's a vein that can be investigated that

600
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 2: was never investigated, and that would take prosecutors, and that

601
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 2: would take the state to do because I can't subpoena evidence.

602
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 2: So I think there's a new investigative vein that didn't

603
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 2: exist before. And yes, I mean part of the book

604
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 2: was to show how difficult it is to get at

605
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 2: the truth because of the corruption.

606
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 1: Do you see an improvement? Well, you have already said

607
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 1: it's even less safe now for journalists in Mexico than

608
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 1: it was then, is that right?

609
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 3: That's right?

610
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 2: And I do feel the reason for the killings. I

611
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 2: think initially there was a fair amount of these tabloid

612
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 2: crime reporters getting in cahoots with the cartels. So that's

613
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 2: been ten years now, and those ten years, or say

614
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 2: twelve years since this really started getting bad, fifteen more

615
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 2: like in those fifteen years, the press has become in Mexico,

616
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 2: has become much more independent, and there are reporters now

617
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 2: who really want to get out there and dig and

618
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 2: tell the truth because they're younger, reporters that came up

619
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 2: in the journalism school's post democracy, and so they come

620
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 2: out prepared and interested and ready to dig which didn't exist.

621
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 2: But these are newly trained journalists, and so there are more.

622
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 2: They do tend to be more local, and they're hitting

623
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 2: local corruption. There's not a study. I would have to

624
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 2: say this just sort of anecdotally that I think more

625
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 2: of these cases when journalists are killed are really about

626
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 2: them uncovering something uncomfortable.

627
00:33:57,880 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 1: Well, I read the book, and I read the review.

628
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 1: I'm struck by. Very Rarely in the New York Times

629
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 1: do they sort of call out a writer for her

630
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 1: quality in this way. The person who reviewed your book says,

631
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 1: she is a fine and honest writer, a dogged reporter,

632
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,320
Speaker 1: and her story paints a dystopian portrait of our southern

633
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 1: neighbor where decades of rampant impunity have led to horrific

634
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 1: abuses of power. More than one hundred thousand people have

635
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,760
Speaker 1: disappeared in Mexico since such records have been kept, most

636
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 1: of them since the drug wars began in two thousand

637
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 1: and six. That's something to be very proud of.

638
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 2: I know you know that. Thank you, And also the

639
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:39,319
Speaker 2: writer is a very spectacular writer himself, Mark Bowden. So, yes,

640
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 2: that was really something to read that.

641
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 1: Are you ever willing to go down this road again?

642
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: This would terrify me. I have two young kids. This

643
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 1: would be so scary to do.

644
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 2: I think you do have to consider those kinds of things.

645
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,240
Speaker 2: In a different period of my life, No, I wouldn't

646
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 2: do this, So you do have to consider that, you know,

647
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 2: I had my own security protocol. I think what really

648
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 2: drove me in this case was curiosity and the whole

649
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 2: environment that I was in. I had to take into account,

650
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 2: but almost as a secondary because I was just so curious.

651
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 2: I really wanted to find out what happened. And sometimes

652
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 2: in Mexico and other places, you do have to come

653
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,399
Speaker 2: to a point where you say this is just too dangerous. Yeah,

654
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 2: and a lot of journalists in Mexico make those decisions

655
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 2: now and say, you know, we're not going to go

656
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,319
Speaker 2: down this road because it's just too dangerous. I don't know.

657
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 2: I just was in a situation where I had my

658
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 2: system down. There were a couple indications that I was

659
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 2: being watched, which I describe in the book, but for

660
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 2: the most part, I felt very anonymous and as long

661
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,760
Speaker 2: as I felt anonymous, I just kept going.

662
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:53,320
Speaker 1: Even as a white journalist in Mexico, anonymous.

663
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 2: Well, people could pretty much can see I was probably American,

664
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 2: although when I first went to Mexico, people thought I

665
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 2: was European, which is actually better than being American, so

666
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 2: they would ask if I was French. Heare Italian. I

667
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 2: can also pass for northern Mexican, but as soon as

668
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 2: I started speaking, of course, I knew it wasn't my

669
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,800
Speaker 2: native language. But Halapa is a university town. With a

670
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 2: university town, there are a lot of foreigners there. There

671
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 2: are a lot of you know, professors there investigating various

672
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 2: things for thesises, things like that, so I wasn't completely

673
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 2: you know, I didn't stick out like a sore thumb.

674
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,800
Speaker 2: And it was also a big tourist attraction until that

675
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 2: Arco Wars broke out. There are a lot of tourists there,

676
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 2: so I just wasn't that unusual on the scene.

677
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 1: What do you think is Rahina Martinez's legacy in Mexico

678
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 1: as a journalist.

679
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 2: Her murder had a huge impact on the whole profession

680
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 2: across the country, and so people have not forgotten. It

681
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 2: was very much a watershed a turning point because the

682
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 2: fact that a journalist working for a national publication with

683
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:59,959
Speaker 2: her profile was killed was a signal to any national

684
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 2: journalists anywhere that they could be a target. So I

685
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 2: think it changed very much the sensibility for journalists in Mexico.

686
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:12,359
Speaker 2: But I think it also well, there's been a lot

687
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 2: of mythology obviously that's grown up around the case since then,

688
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 2: but I think it is kind of a beacon. It's

689
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:20,799
Speaker 2: something that people keep in mind, not only for the

690
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 2: terrible thing that happened, but for the kind of journalist

691
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 2: she was. She's very known and admired posthumously for the

692
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 2: kind of work she did and what she stood for,

693
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 2: and everybody knows that. And she has actually been recognized

694
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:40,920
Speaker 2: anyways posthumously, including winning a George Polk Award and a

695
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 2: Maria Moore's Cavit Award. So she's definitely a beacon in

696
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 2: that way. I think her example inspires a lot of

697
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:51,399
Speaker 2: younger journalists.

698
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 1: What a terrible loss it is.

699
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 3: It's very sad.

700
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,359
Speaker 2: The thing that's interesting every time I talk about this

701
00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 2: is she was so private. First of all, she didn't

702
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 2: care anything about all words, and she probably would hate

703
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 2: that she's had this much attention, but I think in

704
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 2: telling the story, it's important to let people know what

705
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 2: she did and what she stood for, because that was

706
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 2: really important, and I think it's a really important story

707
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 2: and I think it resonates with a lot of people.

708
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

709
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That

710
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:38,240
Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock. This has been an exactly

711
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 1: right production. Our senior producer is Alexis M. Morosi. Our

712
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:46,359
Speaker 1: associate producer is Alex ch This episode was mixed by

713
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 1: John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer. Artwork by Nick Toga.

714
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 1: Executive produced by Georgia Hartstark, Karen Kilgariff and Danielle Kramer.

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00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 1: Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more

716
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717
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 1: know of a historical crime that could use some attention

718
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Speaker 1: from the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email us at

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720
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