Speaker 1: I think Seth England had a falling out with Morgan
Speaker 1: Ballin freaked out and dropped me and a lot of
Speaker 1: other people who had stuff going on. And I also
Speaker 1: think that they realized that they didn't have the capacity
Speaker 1: within their staff to work the kind of music I
Speaker 1: was releasing.
Speaker 2: Episode four to ninety with Maggie Rose, who's really one
Speaker 2: of the best singers in town, and she definitely chose
Speaker 2: her own path to do it. She's always been kind
Speaker 2: of on the fringe of what is considered mainstream, and
Speaker 2: that's always what's made her so cool, kind of ahead
Speaker 2: of her time even And what's hilarious we talk about this, Well,
Speaker 2: she got a Grammy nomination, and that's not hilarious, but
Speaker 2: what happened right before the Grammy nomination, So I don't
Speaker 2: want to spoil what we talked about in this episode,
Speaker 2: but she was just nominated for Grammy for Best Americana Album,
Speaker 2: which is super cool. What was fun to me, Like
Speaker 2: I've known Maggie for a decade. It's crazy to say
Speaker 2: that word because I've even been here for a decade.
Speaker 2: But when I first moved to town and we were touring,
Speaker 2: she was on the road with us a lot, and
Speaker 2: I didn't know some of the stories that she told
Speaker 2: from pre me moving here, Like I didn't know that
Speaker 2: she had a whole different name. Yeah, I had no idea.
Speaker 2: So Maggie Rose, I'm super happy for her. I think
Speaker 2: she had some stuff she wanted to get off her
Speaker 2: chest here as well. Yeah, I could tell us. She'd
Speaker 2: be like, wait to talk about that stuff. Honored. She
Speaker 2: wanted to do it here with me, and she trusted
Speaker 2: me that, you know, I would walk through her with it.
Speaker 2: I you know, full transparency. Had had some talks with
Speaker 2: her about it during the process where she'd call and
Speaker 2: be like, what do you think? And I'm no expert
Speaker 2: on record labels for sure, but that even that really
Speaker 2: wasn't what I was talking to her about. It was
Speaker 2: kind of like, don't worry about other folks at all,
Speaker 2: Like do you and let all the chips fall? At
Speaker 2: least you can be proud of that. But man, she's awesome.
Speaker 2: On January tenth, she released a cover of I Can't
Speaker 2: Make You Love Me featuring Vince Gill. I Can't Make
Speaker 2: You Love Me? Maybe I should do a cover of
Speaker 2: that with Maggie very Good featuring featuring Maggie No One
Speaker 2: Gets out Alive. That's a record. I hope you check
Speaker 2: it out. I hope you like this interview. She's expecting
Speaker 2: a baby April with her husband Austin Marshall. She has
Speaker 2: a podcast called Salute the Songbird, and she's all over
Speaker 2: the road. And here she is on Instagram at I
Speaker 2: am Maggie Rose. Here is Maggie Rose.
Speaker 1: A lot of labels would say like, we love what
Speaker 1: you do, we just don't know what to do with you.
Speaker 1: And I would be met with that all the time.
Speaker 1: And so I think you just got to keep making music. Well,
Speaker 1: and you know, this whole Big Loud thing, Like I talked.
Speaker 2: To you after that happened, And do you want to
Speaker 2: say what that is before you talk about it? Do
Speaker 2: you mind talking what saying?
Speaker 1: Well, I haven't gotten to talk about it.
Speaker 2: Would you like to talk about it?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: So then let's let's back up. And first of all,
Speaker 2: Big Loud is a label. Yes, it's also management. It's all.
Speaker 2: It's a thing.
Speaker 1: But they signed you, they signed me, and like they are,
Speaker 1: you know, by all conventional standards, crushing it. They at
Speaker 1: the time that I signed with them, had Morgan Wallen
Speaker 1: and Hardy and Earnest, and they were trying to expand
Speaker 1: and I had already made No One Gets Out Alive.
Speaker 1: The record was done, it was mastered. I was probably
Speaker 1: going to just release it the way I'd released my
Speaker 1: previous two albums, which is change the whole thing.
Speaker 2: No no, no, you say, released it as you did
Speaker 2: your last two albums.
Speaker 1: Just independently, like with A. I have a good team
Speaker 1: of publicists and distributors, and you know, we would hire
Speaker 1: independent promotion and everything more for Triple A Radio and
Speaker 1: Americana focuses. But Nate Yetton heard this record and he
Speaker 1: was hired as an A and R, which is kind
Speaker 1: of the could be the coolest job ever. Your job
Speaker 1: is to cultivate.
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's go find it and build it.
Speaker 1: He His specific Fick objective with Big Loud was to
Speaker 1: broaden their musical roster to find critical acclaim Like he
Speaker 1: told me and my husband Austin, He's like, you know,
Speaker 1: we want a Grammy.
Speaker 2: Critical acclaim by the way, artists that you're respected for
Speaker 2: having but may not be commercially as viable. But you're like,
Speaker 2: they're really good and the critics love them. But and
Speaker 2: there's a difference but they wanted something that wasn't populous.
Speaker 2: Yes type, because Morgan's killing a Harty's killing it, and
Speaker 2: people will be like, well, you got people that are
Speaker 2: making hits. They wanted a symphony. Yeah, and that's you.
Speaker 2: They wanted you.
Speaker 1: I was totally flattered and inspired by the vision and
Speaker 1: it was surprising to me. I don't feel like I
Speaker 1: was definitely the outlier on their roster, and in terms
Speaker 1: of critical acclaim like, no, I'm not shy about saying
Speaker 1: that we've had no shortage of that the last couple
Speaker 1: of records. And that goes back to your question about
Speaker 1: you know, frustration and myself and people. It's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that was there.
Speaker 2: But I think credibility is another word I would use.
Speaker 2: Not to interrupt you, I just want to make sure
Speaker 2: our audience knows what's going on. I think they wanted
Speaker 2: credibility from music with depth. Yeah, not that the other
Speaker 2: guys don't have it, but they're killing it again, I
Speaker 2: use work populous in a very populous way. They want
Speaker 2: a credibility, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1: When I think they're a young enough company that that
Speaker 1: was the right time for them to then take that
Speaker 1: step in the direction to say okay, we can do
Speaker 1: more than just have these massive streaming darlings and you know,
Speaker 1: go direct to consumer and have a hit. And I
Speaker 1: have no doubt that they love this record. Like that's
Speaker 1: not something that I negate and I appreciate their vision
Speaker 1: in it, but like it was an undeniable offer. It
Speaker 1: was like, we're going to acquire this whole album. We
Speaker 1: made beautiful music videos, We did all this incredible artwork
Speaker 1: and packaging, you know, with Sofia Matanezade and Nikki Fletcher
Speaker 1: shooting these videos, and they talked about partnering with Polydor
Speaker 1: out of UK and just how like this was going
Speaker 1: to be, you know, an adult contemporary pop album, and
Speaker 1: they were really going to strategize on the marketing plan,
Speaker 1: like and.
Speaker 2: They were promising and using resources, yes, and.
Speaker 1: It wasn't like they implemented those resources in a lot
Speaker 1: of ways. And you know, I'd already waited to put
Speaker 1: this music out, so with that promise of this plan,
Speaker 1: I waited a little longer. And it came out in
Speaker 1: April of twenty four and they put billboards all over
Speaker 1: East Nashville, and we did these showcases in New York
Speaker 1: City in LA and you know, we got on like
Speaker 1: these great reviews upon the release, and then it was
Speaker 1: like radio silence, which is.
Speaker 2: What they were looking for, by the way, to have
Speaker 2: an artist that would be reviewed wonderfully by critics. Right,
Speaker 2: this this snobby part which is important. Yeah, yeah, the
Speaker 2: people that. Yeah, so so you get ever, you get
Speaker 2: what they brought you to do. You've created something, and
Speaker 2: what you created was exactly what they had asked you
Speaker 2: to do. You went and did it all and then
Speaker 2: silent Yeah from who what do you mean? Silent?
Speaker 1: Like from And there's a lot of people like I
Speaker 1: think Candice Watkins is amazing there. She was really engaged,
Speaker 1: and I'm not sure that she she liked me. I
Speaker 1: think was blindsided about the whole thing. But I'm out
Speaker 1: on the road. I'm on the No One Gets Out
Speaker 1: Alive tour. I find out that like some of the
Speaker 1: digital marketing spending is comparable to like what I did
Speaker 1: on my own with one song on the previous record,
Speaker 1: And it's like all this investment leading up to the
Speaker 1: release and then it's like someone freaked out or something happened,
Speaker 1: and I can speculate, and I can only speculate because
Speaker 1: no one's called me and told me what's happened?
Speaker 2: What happened?
Speaker 1: I think Seth England had a falling out with Morgan
Speaker 1: Ballin and freaked out and dropped me and a lot
Speaker 1: of other people who had stuff going on. And I
Speaker 1: also think that they realized that they didn't have the
Speaker 1: capacity within their staff to work the kind of music
Speaker 1: I was releasing. So they are great with Spotify and
Speaker 1: these streaming services and all that stuff, but like the
Speaker 1: nuance that they talked about using with this music, they
Speaker 1: didn't have it. They just didn't have the stuff. And
Speaker 1: it was three months after we put this record out. Like,
Speaker 1: it can't be based on metrics. It can't be based
Speaker 1: on analytics of how the music is performing. It hasn't
Speaker 1: even been out long enough.
Speaker 2: So I want to speculate, and I want to be
Speaker 2: a very uneducated with my speculation. And if I'm wrong,
Speaker 2: tell me I'm wrong.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they can call me if they want to correct me.
Speaker 1: I'd happily here.
Speaker 2: Well I know less than you because I'm not involved
Speaker 2: in this. But when you say Seth and Morgan had
Speaker 2: a falling out, my belief is Morgan did not want
Speaker 2: to be managed anymore by Big Loud, which was his label,
Speaker 2: and they have a multi if I'm right, they manage,
Speaker 2: they produce, they do it all. And to lose that money.
Speaker 2: If Morgan's like, it's devastating, devastating, because I'll just talk
Speaker 2: about my management. My management makes RAG makes ten fifteen percent. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so think about that millions of dollars and fifteen percent
Speaker 2: of that is now gone. And again they may have
Speaker 2: had a deal where instead of the twenty five or whatever,
Speaker 2: we'll just say fifteen percent because that's what I know.
Speaker 2: That's a lot of money, Yeah, which I'm sure they
Speaker 2: are budgeting to have and to use in other places,
Speaker 2: and now they don't have it. I guess what sucks
Speaker 2: is you weren't communicated that.
Speaker 1: No. I felt like I was. Also, they were signing
Speaker 1: up a storm, like there were so many new acts
Speaker 1: getting signed after my initial signing, and I felt like
Speaker 1: my guy Nate Gyetten, who I felt I was very
Speaker 1: close to, like he took his eye off the ball.
Speaker 2: For sure, on you because of they were signing everyone
Speaker 2: else or because they had not figure how to make money.
Speaker 1: You think, well, I think he was very ambitious about
Speaker 1: finding these new acts to build the roster. And you
Speaker 1: know that is his prerogative and that was his job
Speaker 1: and what he was asked to do. But there were
Speaker 1: I look back at, like my correspondence, like I was
Speaker 1: sending new songs for just starting to toss out stuff
Speaker 1: that I'd want to record for the next project, and
Speaker 1: like not really getting a lot of engagement.
Speaker 2: What would your team sake if that happens, And it's
Speaker 2: happened a version of this has happened with me and
Speaker 2: TV Networks, Right if I become not the shiny toy,
Speaker 2: two different things. You know, they don't call back as much,
Speaker 2: they won't answer, So I'll just go to my team, like, hey,
Speaker 2: what's up. If you're doing that with your team, what
Speaker 2: are they telling you?
Speaker 1: Well, I think we did talk to them. I had
Speaker 1: a show in May in Nashville, and you know, Austin
Speaker 1: sat down with Candace and was like, what's going on,
Speaker 1: Like we just feel like there's a lag in communication
Speaker 1: where it was full court press leading up to that,
Speaker 1: and Candace said, this record's a baby, like we're just
Speaker 1: getting started, and that immediately put us at ease, and like,
Speaker 1: I thought this was my home for a long time
Speaker 1: based on the creative freedom they had given me. How
Speaker 1: much I knew that they.
Speaker 2: Love this record money they'd spent.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and I've gotten all those masters back.
Speaker 1: I've gotten all those assets back. They made me whole lot.
Speaker 2: Did you have to buy back?
Speaker 1: No, I did, like a royalty override, which I think
Speaker 1: that's pretty telling too, that it was that I was
Speaker 1: able to reacquire all of that.
Speaker 2: Explain a royalty override.
Speaker 1: So basically, if they want to see any of the
Speaker 1: returns on their investment, that music has to perform well,
Speaker 1: and they get like the investment that maybe I made
Speaker 1: in the recording and a little bit of interest on
Speaker 1: top of that, but not on the videos, not on
Speaker 1: like all this other stuff. So it really is a shame.
Speaker 1: I wanted to win with them, and I ended up
Speaker 1: submitting for the Grammys by myself. But I get to
Speaker 1: take all of those things, and I've gone to I've
Speaker 1: signed now with one Riot and Virgin Music Group, and
Speaker 1: now they get to use all that stuff that I
Speaker 1: got to make with Loud, but also with the creative
Speaker 1: director and music video director who were outsourced, who I
Speaker 1: have relationships with already.
Speaker 2: Anyway, how did the conversation, When did the conversation happen?
Speaker 2: Where it's like, Okay, we're breaking up, because again it
Speaker 2: sounds like they were kicking they can't or they just
Speaker 2: didn't want to have that difficult conversation with.
Speaker 1: You they didn't have it, or it was July twenty second.
Speaker 1: I had gotten back from a pretty gnarly run. It
Speaker 1: was a tough My sound guy was sick, it was
Speaker 1: the gigs were tough. And then that Monday morning, I
Speaker 1: go into Narvel Blackstock's office. Noarvel's been managing me with
Speaker 1: Austin for eight years now, and he's a pro, like
Speaker 1: he was married to Reba and he's seen it all.
Speaker 1: And I sit in his office and his eyes are
Speaker 1: so watery, and I'm just like, oh God, what is
Speaker 1: what am I about to hear? I thought I was
Speaker 1: going to hear news. I didn't know what I was
Speaker 1: going to hear. And he just said, I've been holding
Speaker 1: this all weekend last third. I went to the office
Speaker 1: and Big Loud and I sat with Seth and Nate
Speaker 1: and we walked into the conference room kind of made
Speaker 1: small talk. We're figuring out how to work the lights.
Speaker 1: And then after we got done talking about postmone or
Speaker 1: whatever they said, I say, so we're not moving forward
Speaker 1: with Maggie, and he said he was just in a daze,
Speaker 1: like didn't even know how to respond because it was
Speaker 1: such a quick, like abrupt cutting off of this long
Speaker 1: term plan, like it took us longer to negotiate this deal.
Speaker 1: I feel like then I was actually with them, and
Speaker 1: I really felt and I'm not this is not my
Speaker 1: first time around the block, like I'm not so trusting
Speaker 1: of any organization, and I really do feel like I
Speaker 1: had friendships at this at this label, and we all
Speaker 1: were excited about the opportunity, and then it just was
Speaker 1: like like I even feel some part of my heart
Speaker 1: feels sympathy for Nate, even though I wish he had
Speaker 1: communicated with me more. That like this was pulled on
Speaker 1: him quickly, and Marvelle finally said he snapped back into
Speaker 1: it and was like, well, you're gonna give her a
Speaker 1: master's back, right. They didn't even have a plan for that.
Speaker 1: So it took about six weeks to figure that out.
Speaker 1: And I still hadn't heard directly from anyone, No one
Speaker 1: talked to me.
Speaker 2: That part, to me, is crazy.
Speaker 1: I just that's I do not operate that way. Ghosting
Speaker 1: and all that crazy stuff is like I don't know.
Speaker 1: It's like for early twenties dating behavior. It's not how
Speaker 1: you conduct business. And I like, obviously I'm still sore
Speaker 1: about it, and I have all these great things to
Speaker 1: have ended the year with, but it's and then I
Speaker 1: found out two weeks later I was pregnant, and it
Speaker 1: was just like, you know, truly, not that that wasn't
Speaker 1: an amazing, happy piece of news, but it was definitely
Speaker 1: like an oh crap.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So what kind of closure do you feel like? Now,
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna say neat because you don't need it,
Speaker 2: but what kind of closure would you like?
Speaker 1: I think I've gotten it in so many ways. I
Speaker 1: love my new team.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's still resentment there. I'd be way worse than you.
Speaker 2: I mean I would be I'd be on fire.
Speaker 1: Still, you know, I did get a text and I
Speaker 1: usually don't get into this kind of like conversation talking
Speaker 1: about texts and correspondence, but it is that's everything at
Speaker 1: the end of the day. Like I've worked with so
Speaker 1: many people over all these years I've been here, and
Speaker 1: not a whole lot of bridges burned because there's mutual respect.
Speaker 1: If we had gone through the process of really working
Speaker 1: this music and it just didn't work, and we had
Speaker 1: to say, like, all right, like we tried, then that
Speaker 1: would be fine. Or if they leveled with me and said,
Speaker 1: this is happening with us, and you know, apparently there
Speaker 1: was some suggestion this has nothing to do with Maggie
Speaker 1: Da Da Da too, Norvel, but they left me open
Speaker 1: to all this speculation. I think I said this to
Speaker 1: you when I was trying to deal with like what
Speaker 1: are people thinking out there about this? They left me
Speaker 1: open to people just kind of wondering, oh, what did
Speaker 1: she do to mess that up? Because no one they
Speaker 1: just didn't say anything. It's like, we put this record
Speaker 1: out in such a big way or what could have
Speaker 1: been a big way, and then we just weren't working
Speaker 1: together anymore. And the text I finally got in September
Speaker 1: from Nate probably instigated by the fact that other artists
Speaker 1: at Big Loud were starting to figure out. They're like, wait,
Speaker 1: what the hell happened? It was like urging him to
Speaker 1: then finally reach out. He's like, sorry, we haven't spoken
Speaker 1: since we parted ways. I just was told not to
Speaker 1: reach out until we reached a master's agreement. Well, at
Speaker 1: that point we had reached it. A long time ago,
Speaker 1: and the implication of parting ways is so such a
Speaker 1: cop out to me because it would imply that it
Speaker 1: was mutual and that it was humane and that it
Speaker 1: was done with respect. So I guess that's the closure.
Speaker 1: It's like, let's not rewrite the narrative this was. This
Speaker 1: could have been a really devastating blow to my career,
Speaker 1: to my will to keep doing this. And I think
Speaker 1: about other artists who were dropped from Big Loud around
Speaker 1: the same time, who, like I would I could sit
Speaker 1: down and talk to because they might be attributing so
Speaker 1: much value to that opportunity that was given to them
Speaker 1: and then have it taken away and that could be
Speaker 1: such a deterrent for them to keep making music in
Speaker 1: the future. And it's just like, there are there are
Speaker 1: repercussions for doing that to people.
Speaker 2: Do you just wish you knew why? Like if someone
Speaker 2: that made the decision would say, all right, for real,
Speaker 2: here's the thing. Either nice, you know it's good we
Speaker 2: thought you were, yeah, or we're not making it as
Speaker 2: much much as thought we would and we couldn't afford
Speaker 2: it like that. I feel like that would be nice. Yeah,
Speaker 2: just that whatever it is, like the real answer.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I I think I want to know what they
Speaker 1: think their reasons were. But if it were any of
Speaker 1: those reasons, I mean we're getting all the things that
Speaker 1: they wanted in terms of critical claim or validation, and
Speaker 1: then in terms of performance find financially like how premature
Speaker 1: well the move to make.
Speaker 2: And unfair if that's what they're saying, because again they
Speaker 2: knew going into it. I assumed they knew going into
Speaker 2: it that again they wanted critical acclaim and it's not
Speaker 2: like an n Sync album. This does two million records
Speaker 2: in the first week, right with critical acclaim that takes
Speaker 2: a while, which is why that can't possibly beat it
Speaker 2: because it's not like you're expecting on week one streams
Speaker 2: to be able to you know, a ten multiply on
Speaker 2: the investment. So yeah, I would want to know even
Speaker 2: if it was I always don't like it anymore, like
Speaker 2: I would like to know something because I think I
Speaker 2: wouldt are doubting myself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, there was a there was a danger
Speaker 1: of that for a minute, and I mean I think
Speaker 1: I started to regain my confidence in like October, but
Speaker 1: it was also so weird because Bobby I got the
Speaker 1: Master's back and I was walking into my house and
Speaker 1: serious exem you know they do those bumpers. They're like, Hi,
Speaker 1: this is Maggie Ro's and this my song Fake Flowers,
Speaker 1: and like it was. They were playing it like every hour,
Speaker 1: and I'm busy dealing with attorneys, like just feeling like
Speaker 1: what's going on. And the first gig that we did
Speaker 1: when I got that text, I was out at the
Speaker 1: Gorge with Dave Matthews and I just felt like it
Speaker 1: was working and finally taking hold. And then all this
Speaker 1: stuff was I was navigating behind the scenes, and luckily
Speaker 1: I have such a great partnership with Austin. I love
Speaker 1: my band. I was trying not to freak them out.
Speaker 1: There was a lot that like I couldn't tell them
Speaker 1: right away, and like I love this music and people
Speaker 1: were showing up and things were happening. I felt like
Speaker 1: I was just not able and music row can be
Speaker 1: that way. They're like so in their own bubble that
Speaker 1: they don't see these other things that are happening around
Speaker 1: a lot of artists who just because they make music
Speaker 1: in Nashville, it doesn't mean that it's going to manifest
Speaker 1: or perform in those spaces the way they want it to,
Speaker 1: but it's happening elsewhere.
Speaker 2: It's I go back to Irony. You canniinated for a Grammy.
Speaker 2: That is the exact reason that that label wanted a relationship.
Speaker 1: I know, I know, I know it's weird and that's
Speaker 1: and all these award shows have their flaws, but like,
Speaker 1: that is a peer voted award.
Speaker 2: And even if it's not, there is just credibility with
Speaker 2: a Grammy. Even if it's the shadiest worst blood diamond relate,
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter. Yeah, there is nothing more credible than
Speaker 2: a Grammy because the normal people don't know how that is,
Speaker 2: how that happens. Like, yeah, I'm a voter and used
Speaker 2: to be until a few years ago. They go into
Speaker 2: a back room. I can change the vote. Remember, Mike,
Speaker 2: we've talked about this, right, I am a Grammy voter,
Speaker 2: and that's the most credible thing you can possibly have. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean, I mean I have a doctorate other than that,
Speaker 2: you know, after after my honorary doctorate. Yes, and you
Speaker 2: so you submit I know the process. I submitted to
Speaker 2: kids Record once. Yeah, and then you just wait and
Speaker 2: you obviously I'm like, I know we're not going to
Speaker 2: get nominated, but if we just submit this, maybe it's
Speaker 2: makes creates a little more awareness for the next time.
Speaker 2: That's what I'm telling myself. In the kids category, Yeah,
Speaker 2: you submit what was best possible scenario when you submit
Speaker 2: for a Grammy.
Speaker 1: What we got the Best Americana album?
Speaker 2: So you thought you possibly could be nominated when you
Speaker 2: send it off.
Speaker 1: I mean, I had to shoot my shot, and I'm
Speaker 1: I'm really involved with the Academy in Nashville, like I
Speaker 1: work with advocacy, and there's so much that I love
Speaker 1: about it that goes beyond the awards. But I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I need to go through this process.
Speaker 2: And how'd you know they call you? Do you see
Speaker 2: it online? First? What happens?
Speaker 1: I was out on a hike and did you know?
Speaker 2: It was like, did you know they were going to
Speaker 2: nominate that day? So are you like waiting to hear
Speaker 2: if you got nominated?
Speaker 1: I actually so. They do a broadcast a live stream,
Speaker 1: and this was on the eleventh of November, I think,
Speaker 1: and I knew that they everyone finds out at the
Speaker 1: same time, so they just announced all the people in
Speaker 1: my category on the.
Speaker 2: Live stream and you knew the stream was happening, Yes,
Speaker 2: But I was out and watch, but you weren't watching.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, and I guess because I had my my
Speaker 1: fitness setting on, I wasn't getting all the texts, but
Speaker 1: I was getting them from like those people on your
Speaker 1: your favorites list. And Austin was also not watching at
Speaker 1: the time. And then I just was like, well, I
Speaker 1: haven't heard anything, so I just didn't realize that they
Speaker 1: weren't coming through. And I reached out to him. I
Speaker 1: was like, well, you know, we tried and we can
Speaker 1: be proud of that. And then he was getting to
Speaker 1: starstruck the office at that time, and I heard him
Speaker 1: on the phone like as the elevator doors were opening,
Speaker 1: and it was all the girls on his floor just
Speaker 1: shrieking because they had seen it like moments before we did.
Speaker 1: And yeah, it was surreal. I was like, I think
Speaker 1: we deserved it. I wasn't expecting it at all. There
Speaker 1: wasn't And I'm not just saying that to like.
Speaker 2: I believe say it. I believe both of those statements.
Speaker 2: I believe you think you deserved it, and I believe
Speaker 2: you didn't think you're going to get it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it is. It is. There's politics to it.
Speaker 1: But what I do love about the Grammys is it's
Speaker 1: not like other award shows where you have labels being like,
Speaker 1: all right, we'll vote for you if you vote for us,
Speaker 1: and all this block voting stuff like you have to
Speaker 1: be making music or in broadcasting or kind of participating
Speaker 1: in that output to be able to vote.
Speaker 2: And you people vote for the Grammy because again, I'm
Speaker 2: a Grammy voter from all over, Right, We're here. Most
Speaker 2: of the voting's coming from like a twelve mile radius,
Speaker 2: right where a lot of people are being exposed to
Speaker 2: a lot of different things and aren't in the specific
Speaker 2: clicks and don't even know the people to trade votes with. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and I think that helps broaden the Grammys a little
Speaker 2: more than a specific Nashville Country Music award, Right.
Speaker 1: I mean, you can get someone who's not necessarily got
Speaker 1: the best numbers who's going to qualify for that award,
Speaker 1: and you have to also vote. This is kind of new.
Speaker 1: You have to pick the categories in addition to like
Speaker 1: the Big Five, which are Album of the Year, Arts
Speaker 1: of the Year. The additional categories you have to select
Speaker 1: have to pertain somewhat to what you work within, so
Speaker 1: you're not like voting just based on nothing for artists
Speaker 1: who make music that's totally outside of what you do.
Speaker 2: Like you don't see a name, it just click it
Speaker 2: because it looks cool. Like sometimes when voting, you're like, oh,
Speaker 2: I saw that that billboard that's sign Yeah I like
Speaker 2: the name Clint, So I'm gonna vote for Clint. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that doesn't happen anymore, which which even in my time
Speaker 2: is being a voter. I used to be like that
Speaker 2: you could vote for all the awards totally and so
Speaker 2: it didn't matter. And then I never wanted to not
Speaker 2: vote in a category, so.
Speaker 1: I would just vote for something mm hmm exactly.
Speaker 2: I literally would because I didn't participation. I didn't want
Speaker 2: to look like I think I was lazy. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: just click something. And so once you're nominated, like what,
Speaker 2: I don't know what happens. Does your team go, let's
Speaker 2: strike while the iron is hot. Yes.
Speaker 1: So at that point once when I submitted, I was
Speaker 1: not signed yet to my new label with Virgin, and
Speaker 1: now I have to say, they're kind of like, holy shit,
Speaker 1: what have we stepped into? There was even you know,
Speaker 1: I just cut like six songs at the very beginning
Speaker 1: of this year to kind of start putting together the
Speaker 1: next thing. But this bought me a whole new life
Speaker 1: for this record. So with that nomination, I think they've
Speaker 1: refocused on all the life that's left and what we
Speaker 1: can do with this music. But we we reworked some
Speaker 1: of the songs from the record, like I have a
Speaker 1: song with Vince Gill coming out on Friday that's completing
Speaker 1: like the deluxe version of this record, and I think
Speaker 1: it just sort of was like we threw this hot
Speaker 1: potato at them and we've been trying to extract as
Speaker 1: much as we can out of it.
Speaker 2: It's also kind of funny feeling that you do this
Speaker 2: record a year ago and now it's new again.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and some of these songs are very prophetic, Like
Speaker 1: if you listen to it, it's a lot about like
Speaker 1: what I went through this year and the themes and everything.
Speaker 3: Let's take a quick pause for a message from our sponsor.
Speaker 2: And we're back on the Bobby Cast. When you and
Speaker 2: I talked, I have to constantly like keep myself from
Speaker 2: like doing anything creative and everything being based on if
Speaker 2: people like it. What's a weird life to live. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you're giving a lot of power to something you have
Speaker 2: no control over or people you will never meet and see,
Speaker 2: and something you cannot predict. At times, I wish I
Speaker 2: were like my stepdad and he went to the mill,
Speaker 2: knew what he was doing, did his eight hours, went home,
Speaker 2: didn't worry about anything else, didn't, wasn't neurotic. Was like
Speaker 2: at times, not mostly, but at times I'm pretty envious
Speaker 2: of the But I am and you are wired like
Speaker 2: we're wired. We have a screw loose. It happens to
Speaker 2: be a good screw at times, which is why we
Speaker 2: pursue this. But I have to constantly wind myself, and
Speaker 2: I do this if I meditate. I try to meditate,
Speaker 2: and my mantra is nothing matters, nobody cares. Yeah, And
Speaker 2: I remember talking the most joyful way, yes, And I
Speaker 2: remember talking to you about that specifically and going, nobody
Speaker 2: cares about you in the best way because it sounds harsh.
Speaker 1: Look at what's going on, and we're so lucky to
Speaker 1: get to do.
Speaker 2: This, and people have spent so much of their time
Speaker 2: thinking about themselves. Yeah, I think that if I'm on
Speaker 2: a show that doesn't get picked up and I'm embarrassed
Speaker 2: and I'm like, oh my god.
Speaker 1: This shows like the theme My takeaway from this year
Speaker 1: is what you just said.
Speaker 2: It's I would obsess over it. I mean, like, I'm
Speaker 2: so embarrassed, how am I even going to go in
Speaker 2: front of people? You know what, Nobody cared and not
Speaker 2: that nobody cares about me, and not that nobody cares,
Speaker 2: but nobody invests so much time in thinking about what
Speaker 2: I didn't do right, and that gives me a freedom
Speaker 2: to not care either but care fully right. And so
Speaker 2: nothing matters. Nobody cares. I say that, And there's a
Speaker 2: lot of off that matters, like little things matter way
Speaker 2: more at times than I give them credit for. But
Speaker 2: nothing Sometimes that I put all my worth and value
Speaker 2: to none of that matters.
Speaker 1: And I know what you mean. You're not saying that
Speaker 1: in like a nihilistic way. It's like this is we're
Speaker 1: adding joy and color to the world. And I find
Speaker 1: it liberating that it's all like on a whim. If
Speaker 1: people like it or not, there's no rhyme or reason
Speaker 1: to it. And I think I I, as someone who
Speaker 1: makes music, care when I see someone else have a
Speaker 1: perceived failure and then they keep going because like that
Speaker 1: that you're out there doing it and you're taking chances
Speaker 1: and you're daring to grow. So yeah, I mean I
Speaker 1: care in that regard, but I'm obviously watching from a
Speaker 1: different perspective.
Speaker 2: And I care at times blindly about so many things.
Speaker 2: But the most positive, freeing thing I can tell myself
Speaker 2: is nothing matters. Nobody cares, yeah, and I should not
Speaker 2: worry about something matter. And what I mean is to
Speaker 2: other people when it comes to me, I invest so
Speaker 2: much time in thinking, oh man, this failure mattered so
Speaker 2: much that people are going to look at me different
Speaker 2: that nobody cares.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I needed to hear that at that time too,
Speaker 1: because that was what I was so worried about. Was God,
Speaker 1: we made such a big splash about this partnership, and
Speaker 1: for me, it was I kept saying in interviews and
Speaker 1: I kind of like WinCE when I hear them again.
Speaker 1: I was like, my jaded heart grew three sizes, like
Speaker 1: this music real label actually is letting me do what
Speaker 1: I want to do and believing in me. And then
Speaker 1: there's just aged like milk, and it's like I was
Speaker 1: just worried about people wondering how I had messed it up,
Speaker 1: and no.
Speaker 2: One, nobody thought about that's.
Speaker 1: Just not And it's also most likely not about me,
Speaker 1: and it sucks that I was a casualty of that.
Speaker 1: But I think you also just need to make music
Speaker 1: that or whatever it is that you do creatively that
Speaker 1: you're going to enjoy and hope that people will like
Speaker 1: it as well.
Speaker 2: And if they don't, they're not gonna not like it
Speaker 2: for very long. Doesn't mean they're gonna like it, They're
Speaker 2: not gonna spend It's even the world of haters. I
Speaker 2: felt that world almost dissipate completely in that there are
Speaker 2: ten million things out there. It used to be when
Speaker 2: there were like four four people, and I was one
Speaker 2: of the four people, a lot of haters because I
Speaker 2: was different, I didn't really fit anywhere. I would compare
Speaker 2: our careers they're very similar in that we've never actually
Speaker 2: belonged to a specific group that traditionally resides here.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you were like, oh yeah, just a total
Speaker 1: wild card.
Speaker 2: Didn't really belong didn't have.
Speaker 1: Because it challenged other people to then have to get
Speaker 1: out of their box, didn't have people projecting their own
Speaker 1: worries about what it is that you're doing.
Speaker 2: And because I felt like I never belonged anywhere, the
Speaker 2: exterior got a little rougher.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm a different person than I was, you know.
Speaker 2: And so it got so rough that it got extremely
Speaker 2: soft because I think I've experienced with yourself, with not
Speaker 2: only with myself, but with other people now that are
Speaker 2: told they're not quite like the rest, and where they
Speaker 2: feel like that's a bad thing, that'll end up being
Speaker 2: the thing. That is the way you will be successful
Speaker 2: beyond mildly successful. Right, And if your goal is to
Speaker 2: be mildly successful, there's a pattern and you can do
Speaker 2: the I'm gonna make this type of song. You gonna
Speaker 2: have a certain amount of talent makes this type of
Speaker 2: song gonna sound this way. I'm gonna do it. Okay,
Speaker 2: you'll be monley successful, like be like everybody else. Good
Speaker 2: for you. You go and you do some shows, you'll
Speaker 2: have a five year window of a shelf life of
Speaker 2: a career as an artist, and you'll go about your
Speaker 2: way and play your hits forever and you'll be mindly successful.
Speaker 2: That's great if that's your goal. But if it's to
Speaker 2: be like transcendent and different, you have to be different,
Speaker 2: and that's hurts and that's awkward for everybody. And it's
Speaker 2: cool to see that now happen with you, because that's all.
Speaker 2: It sucked for a while and you've been different and
Speaker 2: it's been awkward, and people are like, we don't know
Speaker 2: what to do with you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't necessarily make it really easy for like the.
Speaker 2: Powers that be, okay, but you were always things conditioned
Speaker 2: you to not make it easy also, Right, So I
Speaker 2: don't think you're a person that just decided I want
Speaker 2: to be difficult to work with. You're not. That's not you.
Speaker 2: But I can understand how being jerked around a bunch
Speaker 2: of times or being told that something over and over
Speaker 2: again would make you not easy to deal with, because
Speaker 2: it hasn't been easy to be dealt with, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I'm not afraid to work hard. You're not
Speaker 1: afraid to work hard, but I am not willing to
Speaker 1: do work that I feel like is a shortcut or
Speaker 1: just a compromise all the time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I go. I'm pure investment now, like I'm not
Speaker 2: doing I'm not investing in anything time, energy, money, who
Speaker 2: cares that that? But creatively, I'm not investing anything less.
Speaker 2: It's pure.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And if it's.
Speaker 1: Because you've been around long enough, you're not going anywhere.
Speaker 1: You're gonna have to live with that credit.
Speaker 2: It exists forever, and I've and it's okay if it
Speaker 2: doesn't work, yeah, because it's not worked a lot of times.
Speaker 1: Well, and look at all this, I feel like there's
Speaker 1: so much music now that the one good thing I
Speaker 1: will say about TikTok is there's songs that are four
Speaker 1: years old from these Sacred Souls that's just now popping off.
Speaker 2: It's like.
Speaker 1: Everything you do is worth doing well because even if
Speaker 1: it lies dormant for a while. Like I know, people
Speaker 1: are now discovering this record because of the Grammy nomination,
Speaker 1: but there's songs from previous albums that people know now
Speaker 1: that they wouldn't have known, and I'm glad I made
Speaker 1: those with the best intentions.
Speaker 2: I appreciate being scared now. Yeah, I think I was.
Speaker 2: There was an expected node to everything, and so I
Speaker 2: was always fighting and angry or trying to prove myself.
Speaker 2: And now creatively, I give you an example my comedy
Speaker 2: special right, and it's it's gonna be terrible.
Speaker 1: Why what do you mean? I wasn't expecting sentenced that way.
Speaker 2: I look at it, I hate it. I watch it.
Speaker 2: Oh No, But the thing is, I bet it's awesome.
Speaker 2: I've done this, is it awesome? Nobody's seen it read.
Speaker 2: I've done this enough time. I've hated every book I've written.
Speaker 2: I've hated I've hated everything I've ever done. But it's
Speaker 2: happened so many times, and most, not all, have turned
Speaker 2: into something good or something You've hated every book, Oh
Speaker 2: my god, I couldn't read them back, hated them.
Speaker 1: I don't ride around town listening to my album.
Speaker 2: Cringe, like, don't want it, but I don't.
Speaker 1: It's crazy.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah so, but but so here's what's fun about it.
Speaker 2: I hate it. I hate my comedy. Special worked extremely
Speaker 2: hard on. It's extremely personal, and it's it's it's and
Speaker 2: it's not even pure. It's again it's awkward because it's
Speaker 2: not pure comedy. It is it's called comedically inspirational. I've
Speaker 2: not seen anything like this, and it could be. It
Speaker 2: could because it's odd, but it's it's fun to be scared,
Speaker 2: and it's fun to hate it because I have to
Speaker 2: go back to loving it while I was touring it.
Speaker 2: I have to go back and remember that, yeah, how
Speaker 2: I felt doing it, how I felt when something would
Speaker 2: work but once it got to the edit part, or
Speaker 2: like I hated it because I was like, this is
Speaker 2: not good.
Speaker 1: You'll fall in love with it.
Speaker 2: Again maybe in five years, honestly, Oh my god. But
Speaker 2: the creative process is a bizarre.
Speaker 1: Right, absolutely, Oh I I felt like I didn't. It
Speaker 1: was painful to even listen to these songs for a
Speaker 1: while when this happened, I just felt like it was
Speaker 1: a it was weaponized against me. And then I kind
Speaker 1: of had to confront it because I was in the
Speaker 1: middle of this tour. I was had to sing these songs.
Speaker 1: But that happened with Havist too, when the pandemic happened.
Speaker 1: That album was done, and then I had to wait
Speaker 1: forever and I couldn't even listen to it. It was too painful,
Speaker 1: But that was more circumstantial.
Speaker 2: Different reasons, Yeah, but same Yeah, like the one, I
Speaker 2: avoid it right, and again, this may be a disaster
Speaker 2: for me and people may go, you're completely unfunny.
Speaker 1: But if I don't get that's not gonna happen.
Speaker 2: No, but it actually might. And that's okay because I'm
Speaker 2: okay with it now. And this is my point about
Speaker 2: all the crap and the nose and the it doesn't
Speaker 2: really work, or that being getting so close to landing
Speaker 2: certain TV jobs and not getting it, and that nothing matters.
Speaker 2: None of that stuff that didn't work in the past.
Speaker 2: It's not connected to me at all right now, like
Speaker 2: I've bombed hard, I've missed things hard. I've gotten so
Speaker 2: close to big things and not gotten them many many times.
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter. But that is I'm wearing none of
Speaker 2: that today, and so if this doesn't work out, it
Speaker 2: doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: I feel like the universe removes those things from your
Speaker 1: path if they're not right. It could have just those
Speaker 1: big opportunities could have become all consuming to you and
Speaker 1: where you would have ended up. But you also have
Speaker 1: these big partners investing in that risk with you. They
Speaker 1: have skin in the game.
Speaker 2: But I'm not even talking about me. I'm just using
Speaker 2: this as an example of the the bizarre world of
Speaker 2: creating and needing approval from people you don't know, hoping
Speaker 2: that what you're doing resonates when you don't know feeling
Speaker 2: great about it. And then again, we have different relationships
Speaker 2: with our art, and that relationship change one hundred times
Speaker 2: in the next fifty years. And now I'm appreciative of
Speaker 2: which is nobody cares for that because I've been able
Speaker 2: to go through crap so many times, right, and I'm
Speaker 2: able to see other people that get put in awkward
Speaker 2: situations and go, hey, it's gonna be good. That's that
Speaker 2: softness though, that's it. That's so hard that it made
Speaker 2: me soft. That's a weird thing to say right there.
Speaker 1: I felt that so hard though, when you said that,
Speaker 1: because it does allow you to get reacquainted with it
Speaker 1: every time you need.
Speaker 2: To, and I yeah, and have peace with it. So
Speaker 2: when you're pregnant and you sing, I feel like it
Speaker 2: that's not standard anything and everything right, like diaphragm.
Speaker 1: Yes, you're a diaphragm. Like it has to be pretty strong.
Speaker 2: Does it. I don't know. I don't know pregnant. You know,
Speaker 2: you don't have to tell me. I don't know the
Speaker 2: rules about asking about that. You're allowed, it's okay, but
Speaker 2: I don't even know the rules.
Speaker 1: I'm twenty seven weeks. I'm about to start my seventh month.
Speaker 2: Yeah, even that's tough for me because, yeah, I don't
Speaker 2: really know where that is yet.
Speaker 1: But I also have always been the person who's like,
Speaker 1: do you really need to talk in weeks saying, And
Speaker 1: now that I'm there, it's like, oh, I get why
Speaker 1: they do it, Like when people like my baby is
Speaker 1: fourteen months, I'm like, just say a year. But there's
Speaker 1: a reason, like.
Speaker 2: I should I should start saying he well, I am
Speaker 2: in weeks. I know when they ask, yeah, I'm thirty
Speaker 2: two thousand weeks ago.
Speaker 1: That's not overwhelming at all.
Speaker 2: Yeah, are you singing? Are you performing? Is it a
Speaker 2: slow adjustment? As again, pardon any ignorantly asked pregnancy question. Okay,
Speaker 2: as that grows.
Speaker 1: You don't need to preface it.
Speaker 2: Okay, question Well for the people, because I get messages,
Speaker 2: you ask that question appropriately. So for all the haters
Speaker 2: out there, relax when that grows and it takes up
Speaker 2: space from your tool that you're used to using it,
Speaker 2: is it different and is a slow gradual change?
Speaker 1: I think because I just haven't stopped performing, it's not
Speaker 1: as perceptible to me. Yeah, But like I just cut
Speaker 1: six songs right at the beginning of the year so
Speaker 1: that I would have some songs in the can before
Speaker 1: it gets to the point where you know I'm not
Speaker 1: gonna want to do it And.
Speaker 2: Can you go hard?
Speaker 1: Now?
Speaker 2: Can you sing hard? Still? Yes?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm doing Jimmy Kimmel.
Speaker 2: Next week's congratulations.
Speaker 1: So that's going to be probably one of the last
Speaker 1: big performances, and then we do performing a couple of
Speaker 1: things around the Grammys and then we'll peace out for
Speaker 1: maternity leave for a little bit.
Speaker 2: Ironny, you get don it for a Grammy. I think
Speaker 2: it's awesome that you're pregnant, but it's you get down
Speaker 2: it for a Grammy when you could really be on
Speaker 2: the road, right And it's again, both are amazing things,
Speaker 2: but the irony is that it happens right when you
Speaker 2: kind of have to put yourself off for a little bit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I kind of have to wrap it up for
Speaker 1: a little bit. And that's all I feel like I've
Speaker 1: ever really known is just staying on the road. That's
Speaker 1: kind of how especially you know, when I was more
Speaker 1: of an independent artist, that was how I road tested
Speaker 1: my songs, Like that's how I knew what to put
Speaker 1: on a record. But I don't know, it feels it
Speaker 1: feels kind of awesome just with the music and everything.
Speaker 1: It's something I've wanted to do, which part the starting
Speaker 1: a family obviously when a Grammy something.
Speaker 2: I didn't know. It's both are awesome, yeah, in different ways.
Speaker 2: And just being nominated for a Grammy. It makes people like,
Speaker 2: have you done Kimmel before?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: Have you done any late night shots before?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: Because having a Grammy nomination gives you a lot of
Speaker 2: leverage to land the spots. Yes, and I'll just assume
Speaker 2: I'm assuming it didn't hurt. When you have a Grammy nomination,
Speaker 2: you're like, I want to come to Jimmy Kimmel or
Speaker 2: they call you and goat like that's probably a big
Speaker 2: part of why they were put on too, you unless
Speaker 2: there's like a great music producer that happens to where
Speaker 2: they just know really good music and they're looking for
Speaker 2: an opportunity to put somebody on that they really like,
Speaker 2: but they can't really convince their higher ups yet because so.
Speaker 1: This music supervisor at Kimmel, who is it? Jim Pitt?
Speaker 1: And I know that he's been interested in booking us, and.
Speaker 2: That's what I mean, like he probably is wanted it,
Speaker 2: but you.
Speaker 1: Know, this does move the needlet bit. And you know,
Speaker 1: there was an offer for us to do it earlier
Speaker 1: in December, and two of my bandmates was like, the
Speaker 1: only I'd given the band off all year. They'd just
Speaker 1: got into Hawaii and it was Monday. They wanted us
Speaker 1: on Wednesday, and that was really hard to not be
Speaker 1: able to just jump at and do. And then the
Speaker 1: first Monday of this year they they made good on
Speaker 1: the date and invited us back. But it is funny
Speaker 1: that all these very visible opportunities are coming when I'm
Speaker 1: like aesthetically just different than you know, I normally would be.
Speaker 1: But I also have always said that it would be
Speaker 1: nice to see more female performers that are pregnant kind
Speaker 1: of out there doing it because I think there's no
Speaker 1: stigma to it, and for what I do, I feel
Speaker 1: like it's definitely just, you know, part of the process.
Speaker 1: It's just my life and I'll figure it out.
Speaker 2: Stigma is interesting because that word doesn't even come to mind.
Speaker 2: I'm also not a woman right right, and I'm not
Speaker 2: feeling the things emotionally or the pressures that you are,
Speaker 2: So I say that, but I don't think stigma. I
Speaker 2: think if I were pregnant, I just wouldn't want to sing, right, Like,
Speaker 2: that's literally what I would be, like, Yeah, we don't
Speaker 2: see a lot of people that are performing pregnant, and
Speaker 2: I in my head go, yeah, I definitely wouldn't want
Speaker 2: to perform pregnant. Because physically wouldn't feel good.
Speaker 1: I've been really lucky. I felt good. And also just
Speaker 1: I love singing physically. I think there's something about just
Speaker 1: the act of doing that that's very satisfying to me.
Speaker 2: Also, you're really good. I don't have us I'm not
Speaker 2: fishing say nothing back to this positive about me. I
Speaker 2: don't have a single skill that is half as good
Speaker 2: as you singing, and so.
Speaker 1: I will not allow that comment.
Speaker 2: But I truly believe that with all of my heart, Like,
Speaker 2: you are really one of the great vocalists, just period.
Speaker 2: And I've been lucky enough to know you for a decade.
Speaker 2: At this point, it has been it's been over ten
Speaker 2: years ago, yeah, or right at it.
Speaker 1: I'm about to tip my seventeen year in Nashville. How
Speaker 1: many seventeen years? But I really feel like, and I'm
Speaker 1: not just saying this because I'm sitting with you, Like
Speaker 1: the ten year town process for me began around the
Speaker 1: time that we met, and that's when I started I
Speaker 1: think doing things more on my terms. Like that's when
Speaker 1: the clock really started, because the first seven years were
Speaker 1: crazy and I was thrown around.
Speaker 2: I don't know that seven years, so i'd like to
Speaker 2: know about that seven years if we can, because I
Speaker 2: do want to come back to the Grammys and how
Speaker 2: I have lots of questions, But again, I do know you.
Speaker 2: I do know you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, You've given me lots of really great moments too.
Speaker 2: And it's I know some people in their acquaintances, but
Speaker 2: like I know you. I would say I know you
Speaker 2: like because we've been on the road together years ago.
Speaker 2: We you know, talk on the phone. I'm talking on
Speaker 2: the phone to anybody. I hate talking on the phone.
Speaker 2: It's the worst thing talking on the phone. It's the
Speaker 2: literal worst thing.
Speaker 1: Oh I feel I enjoy a phone call.
Speaker 2: I hate a phone call.
Speaker 1: So I have to be in the right mood. But
Speaker 1: if I am there long.
Speaker 2: When did you come to town? Why did you come to town?
Speaker 2: And what was the expectation you had when you got
Speaker 2: to town?
Speaker 1: I was nineteen. It was January fourteenth, two thousand and
Speaker 1: eight that I moved into my apartment, which is very
Speaker 1: awesome because I'll be performing Kimmel the same day as
Speaker 1: my anniversary. And I moved here with Tommy Mottola kind
Speaker 1: of as like the liaison for me.
Speaker 2: Sony guy. Yeah, Mary Carry's my husband. In that order.
Speaker 2: What I would think of when you say that, Yeah,
Speaker 2: me too.
Speaker 1: And he was a pretty old school kind of like
Speaker 1: how do you know him? I met him through a
Speaker 1: family friend of mine who actually was like my financier
Speaker 1: in the beginning. He helped fund a lot of my
Speaker 1: music and projects. And I got to go to Tommy
Speaker 1: Mattola's office because my friend Tom Totelly, who is still
Speaker 1: a friend, He's going to come to the Grammys with us,
Speaker 1: even though he's not directly involved in my career. He
Speaker 1: was there from the beginning, so it felt kind of
Speaker 1: meaningful to have him there. But he had a business
Speaker 1: associate who knew Tommy, and by some miracle, we caught
Speaker 1: him on a day where he was open to having
Speaker 1: me visit him at his office, which was in Bergdorf Goodman,
Speaker 1: and I was so green. I just like walked in there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: played three songs and the melodies were strong, Like I
Speaker 1: think he obviously saw that there was something there, and
Speaker 1: he agreed to kind of be a consultant. I guess
Speaker 1: for my initial move to Nashville. That's how I got
Speaker 1: signed to Republic before Republic Nashville even existed, So I
Speaker 1: was working with the New York office but operating out
Speaker 1: of Nashville, and I just was on this track to
Speaker 1: put some music together in six months. So I was
Speaker 1: writing with all these amazing writers and did not know
Speaker 1: who I was, you know. I think it was like
Speaker 1: a baptism by fire experience because I was who knows.
Speaker 2: Who they are at nineteen though, even though I'm in
Speaker 2: much less an artist, which well, and I.
Speaker 1: Think a lot of those initial years I learned so much,
Speaker 1: but I was course correcting a lot of it. It's
Speaker 1: almost harder to undo those first impressions because you want
Speaker 1: to be intentional about who you represent yourself to be.
Speaker 1: And I just didn't really get that opportunity. And I
Speaker 1: don't think there were any bad actors in that. It
Speaker 1: was just we had a very powerful person in Tommy
Speaker 1: saying like, you know, you're gonna be a star, and
Speaker 1: we're gonna do a music video and do this and that,
Speaker 1: and that's just really, first of all, not not exactly
Speaker 1: my aspiration. I want to have a sustainable career and
Speaker 1: make lots of different types of music for a very
Speaker 1: long time. And that's also how the Kings of leon
Speaker 1: Cover came to be of use. Somebody, and at that
Speaker 1: time I already had some other music that probably would
Speaker 1: have sent me musically on a more accurate path to
Speaker 1: where I've ended up. But we were just kind of
Speaker 1: firing from the hip and that Republic deal fell apart.
Speaker 1: It was a singles deal, and Scott Roshadow was kind
Speaker 1: of involved, but not really like everyone was like one
Speaker 1: foot in, one foot out, And I also think understandably
Speaker 1: Scott probably didn't want to be told by someone in
Speaker 1: New York who he was and was not going to
Speaker 1: work with.
Speaker 2: What's difficult about the one foot in one foot out,
Speaker 2: because I've had experiences with that in my career. Is
Speaker 2: the one foot in is in case you pop and
Speaker 2: you make it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it felt very conditional.
Speaker 2: The one foot out is I'm not committed, and I
Speaker 2: don't plan to be committed unless you pop and you
Speaker 2: make it. But if you do, I got my foot in.
Speaker 2: I'm happy to like throw throw some support occasionally, but
Speaker 2: unless you have unless you're building your own momentum. In
Speaker 2: my experience with one footers, that one foot out is
Speaker 2: the dominant foot. Yeah, that one foot in is the
Speaker 2: I got to foot in and I'm gonna help a
Speaker 2: little bit. But it's only really here because if it pops,
Speaker 2: I want to be able to get both feed in.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I like the term one footers. Yeah, it's happening
Speaker 1: all the time right now. I agree just with how
Speaker 1: disposable I think we treat so many of our artists
Speaker 1: in town, Like a lot of the labels around town
Speaker 1: are signing up a bunch of TikTok artists because you know,
Speaker 1: if it works, it works, but there's not a lot
Speaker 1: of development.
Speaker 2: And also the label aren't committing a whole lot to
Speaker 2: it either, right, I mean on the front side, we're
Speaker 2: going to commit and like you said, singles, it's a
Speaker 2: new version of that. Yeah, but they're able to now
Speaker 2: because I think there's been so much failure with the
Speaker 2: TikTok artists. There have really been some that have popped,
Speaker 2: no doubt about it. But you're right, it was a
Speaker 2: cattle call of all cattle that have had songs have
Speaker 2: gone viral, and a race to sign them all. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and how that's really translated in the way of you
Speaker 2: got a couple of good ones and thirteen that didn't
Speaker 2: quite work out. And I think now it's starting to
Speaker 2: even itself out a bit a bit more where it's
Speaker 2: not totally on an algorithm because you're about two years ago,
Speaker 2: that's all it was, right. They were only signing people,
Speaker 2: and it.
Speaker 1: Was devastating to the people who thought they had gotten
Speaker 1: that opportunity.
Speaker 2: And that we're looking to have a sustain like PA
Speaker 2: in that career.
Speaker 1: And they couldn't put a thirty minute live set together.
Speaker 2: Because did you feel like you were going to be
Speaker 2: because of the people that you had around you, even
Speaker 2: if it was temporary or momentary, did you feel like
Speaker 2: in your heart like, oh I'm here, it's star time,
Speaker 2: Like I got Oh yeah.
Speaker 1: I felt like I was following the full proof template
Speaker 1: that had worked so many times for so many people.
Speaker 1: And you know, I pushed back a little bit at
Speaker 1: the suggestion of doing the Kings of leoncover because I
Speaker 1: was like, why would I do someone else's song when
Speaker 1: I have these originals that I think are more representative
Speaker 1: of who I am. It was like, just do this
Speaker 1: and then you can go do it your way like
Speaker 1: that was always kind of the mantra I was hearing,
Speaker 1: which you know, that's just never really the case. And
Speaker 1: when it didn't work out, I felt like I just
Speaker 1: kind of had to put the pieces back together and
Speaker 1: that there are a few iterations of that over the years.
Speaker 1: Like I even went back to the drawing board and
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm going to go buy Maggie Rose
Speaker 1: now and I'm going to reclaim Mike because it was
Speaker 1: it was my government name, Margaret Duranny.
Speaker 2: I didn't see. I didn't know that. Yeah, so you
Speaker 2: were Margaret though, well when you did your very first
Speaker 2: introductions to people, it was Margaret.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 2: I never met Margaret.
Speaker 1: No. No, maybe not well you know Margaret.
Speaker 2: Yes, but I never met Hi. I'm Margaret, right, you
Speaker 2: were Maggie by the time that I that I met you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that was sort of me trying to take
Speaker 1: my power back and get another crack at that first impression,
Speaker 1: and there was like not just you know, I cut
Speaker 1: my hair off and I started writing all sorts of
Speaker 1: music and performing live was a big way for me
Speaker 1: to explore what kind of music I wanted to end
Speaker 1: up recording. But then even then I was dealing with
Speaker 1: country radio and all the confinements of that, and it
Speaker 1: was just tough. There was it was felt very one dimensional,
Speaker 1: like your whole life was poured into the success of
Speaker 1: whatever radio single you chose, and that could be your
Speaker 1: entire year. That's how people know you. And I just
Speaker 1: felt like, in a lot of ways when it just
Speaker 1: became on Cannibal, that that's maybe the best thing that
Speaker 1: happened to me. Like my label folded, I knew you
Speaker 1: at this point, and I had a song out at
Speaker 1: radio that I was told by the label I was
Speaker 1: with at the time, and all my programming friends like,
Speaker 1: that's testing the best. You gotta go put out a
Speaker 1: girl in your truck song, which that's not who I
Speaker 1: am either, And then Maddie and Tay had girl in
Speaker 1: a country song and just became this David and Goliath thing,
Speaker 1: and I was like, I don't, why would I want
Speaker 1: to be here anymore? And put up with that, And
Speaker 1: I feel like that's when I made change the whole thing,
Speaker 1: which was just still country in its own way, but
Speaker 1: like soulful, and I had all my friends in the
Speaker 1: studio and we recorded a live record, and like that's
Speaker 1: what I mean by the ten year o'clock kind of
Speaker 1: starting around that time because I just felt like I
Speaker 1: had to. I had like almost to do damage control
Speaker 1: more than take all these years I had invested and
Speaker 1: build upon them.
Speaker 2: Do you ever think about leaving yes, did you ever
Speaker 2: leave for a minute? No, how close you get to leaving.
Speaker 1: I thought very seriously about moving to la in twenty fifteen.
Speaker 2: Why didn't you?
Speaker 1: I think a lot of things happen in Nashville that
Speaker 1: encouraged me to stay that record. Being able to just
Speaker 1: make a record with my friends and realized that I
Speaker 1: was capable without an investor and without a label and
Speaker 1: like really be hungry for a while and have it
Speaker 1: turned out the way it did was encouraging. And I think, like,
Speaker 1: I owe so much of the success I have to
Speaker 1: this community. I owe a lot of the reasons that
Speaker 1: I'm better at what I do to like opticles that
Speaker 1: this city presented me. But I don't know, I feel
Speaker 1: really really rooted here now.
Speaker 2: I feel like the common sentiment about you, I would
Speaker 2: hear this obviously when you weren't around. So that's how
Speaker 2: you know it's the truth. That's why people say when
Speaker 2: you're not around. The actual truth is I think a
Speaker 2: lot of people were frustrated for you. Yeah, meaning it
Speaker 2: wasn't that they're like, Maggie got screwed over. It was
Speaker 2: Maggie's awesome in the music she's making awesome, and the
Speaker 2: landscape of whatever the current popular country format was wasn't
Speaker 2: exactly where you were. You were ahead of it a bit,
Speaker 2: and it was just like people just wanted them to match. Yeah,
Speaker 2: because you're wildly talented and you work very hard, and
Speaker 2: when those two things come together, that's usually a great combination.
Speaker 2: And we're seeing it now. As a matter of fact,
Speaker 2: I mean this is it should probably taken a little longer
Speaker 2: than you initially thought. Hey, I took it longer me
Speaker 2: for what I thought too. Yeah, But I think most
Speaker 2: people were frustrated for you because they knew you and
Speaker 2: liked you. They would see you perform and were intimidated
Speaker 2: by you in the best way, and it was like, man,
Speaker 2: she's either swung and missed so hard or she's ahead
Speaker 2: of her time. And I think it was the latter,
Speaker 2: is that you were just a bit ahead of where
Speaker 2: the landscape of country music is. Maybe so and okay,
Speaker 2: because I felt frustration for you, did you feel other
Speaker 2: people being frustrated for you? Yes, yeah, not sad for you.
Speaker 2: There's a difference.
Speaker 1: I think it's shared frustration with a lot of artists
Speaker 1: who are not totally doing like the country thing, or
Speaker 1: even artists who are country adjacent and can't seem to
Speaker 1: like click.
Speaker 2: The funny thing about country adjacent, though, is that country
Speaker 2: adjacent most of the time ends up being made country. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Like you can look at Sam Hunt, you can, we can,
Speaker 2: we can do ten artists who were country adjacent when
Speaker 2: they came out, and everybody's like that, that's not really it.
Speaker 2: It's a country adjacent but it was so strong and
Speaker 2: powerful that it kind of removed the adjacent from itself.
Speaker 2: And that live record was incredible and even like the
Speaker 2: media you shot for it, like all that was just
Speaker 2: such a like a powerful project. Because again, you're you're,
Speaker 2: you're one of the best. Yeah. I think everybody, just
Speaker 2: myself included, was like, oh, it's not.
Speaker 3: If it's when the Bobby Cast will be right back.
Speaker 3: This is the Bobby Cast.
Speaker 2: We before you came in, we talked about the album
Speaker 2: and did a whole deal. And I'm really I'm really
Speaker 2: happy for you in a way of not like condescending,
Speaker 2: like I'm happy for you. It's not about the Grammy nomination.
Speaker 2: It's like when someone owes you money and they finally
Speaker 2: pay the money.
Speaker 1: It's like it's like it's a good analogy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like I think you're finally getting paid back. Yeah,
Speaker 2: a bit.
Speaker 1: So it doesn't feel it feels sturdy in a way
Speaker 1: that I feel a lot of peace with. Like I'm
Speaker 1: very excited. I feel like a calm about it. And
Speaker 1: I think if all these things had happened to me
Speaker 1: five years ago, I don't know if i'd be as.
Speaker 2: It wouldn't calm.
Speaker 1: You kind of needed, probably like let it affect me
Speaker 1: and get weird or something.
Speaker 2: I'm a fan. Well likewise, yeah, no, I I'm so
Speaker 2: happy for you, and you're going to go through this
Speaker 2: and I'm going to go through this another I don't know,
Speaker 2: one hundred times in the next twenty years.
Speaker 1: Well, I can't say we're not ready for it.
Speaker 2: And we'll have an understand even a little more every
Speaker 2: single time it happens, and we'll be able to pass
Speaker 2: that along to other folks too. And you know, how's
Speaker 2: the podcast going? By the way, you still doing it?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's great. We're doing it live at Chief or
Speaker 1: Churches Bar. Yes, And I love him. He's been like
Speaker 1: an interesting friend in all of this stuff. And it's
Speaker 1: it's all women guests, and I love the fact that
Speaker 1: it's in front of a live audience because conversations just
Speaker 1: seem to fly by and everyone's on like you know,
Speaker 1: they're extra sparkly behavior and there's music involved. But we
Speaker 1: do it once a month because I wanted to once
Speaker 1: I came out with a new format. I don't ever
Speaker 1: want to commit to something and then under deliver. But yeah,
Speaker 1: we'll have Caitlin Smith on and Britney Spencer and Molly Tuttle,
Speaker 1: and I just it makes me a better musician to
Speaker 1: talk to people and to kind of dive into their
Speaker 1: world and realize as even these people who you think
Speaker 1: have it all figured out, you know, I've interviewed Melissa
Speaker 1: Ethridge and Kathy Wilson from Heart and they've just been
Speaker 1: through it and they're going through it in other ways.
Speaker 1: I feel like it's is it weird to say that
Speaker 1: that's comforting?
Speaker 2: You're not isolated and the loan everyone. It's just nobody's
Speaker 2: sharing it out openly unless you can have a relationship
Speaker 2: about it. So yeah, it's not like you and I
Speaker 2: could have this conversation with many other people that haven't
Speaker 2: had to suffer through a similar thing. But there are
Speaker 2: conferences we can't have with people about their you know,
Speaker 2: you have to find somebody that relates right, because it's weird.
Speaker 2: Even with my job for the radio show, for example,
Speaker 2: I will complain like crazy about waking up in the
Speaker 2: morning and I hate it's worse. I'm not a morning
Speaker 2: person quite the profession exactly. There's only certain people I
Speaker 2: can complain to about it and know that it's really
Speaker 2: not that bad. Like it sucks, I hate it, but
Speaker 2: in the grand scheme it's okay. Yeah, but I feel
Speaker 2: like I can really you know, or if I'm on
Speaker 2: the road a lot, touring and I'm like, it sucks.
Speaker 2: Someone that knows how sucky it is to be on
Speaker 2: the road going in the back doors of places eating
Speaker 2: crabby food. Yea, even though you're telling jokes to fifteen
Speaker 2: hundred people.
Speaker 1: You know, it's a juxtaposition loneliness to extreme extra version.
Speaker 2: I like talking with people that are crazy like me.
Speaker 2: It doesn't make me feel as crazy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly it, because.
Speaker 2: I'm not crazy. They just don't get to share it
Speaker 2: just the right amount. I have a screw screwless, a
Speaker 2: couple of screws, a lot of screws.
Speaker 1: You need to be a little bit.
Speaker 2: I'm like a I'm like an ikea table that when
Speaker 2: you're done with it, you got parts left over. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Like I guess that was supposed to be in there.
Speaker 2: That's me. Okay, look slut Songbird. That is the podcast
Speaker 2: we talked about the album a bunch before you got here.
Speaker 2: Congratulations on the Grammy nomination. And I think you did
Speaker 2: this awesome. Thank you because I think and I don't know,
Speaker 2: you may leave and go, how do I like what
Speaker 2: I said about the things that have been affecting me
Speaker 2: over the past few months. I think you handled it awesome.
Speaker 1: I feel well, thank you for saying that. It's also
Speaker 1: nice to tell the story from this vantage point, you know,
Speaker 1: I feel having some time between it that event and
Speaker 1: also just all the great things that have happened at
Speaker 1: the end of this year, and also like talking about
Speaker 1: being softer and putting things into perspective, like I'm on
Speaker 1: the precipice of like one of the most seismic shifts
Speaker 1: with becoming a mom that you're just like, I'll figure
Speaker 1: it out. I will, and we just we have like
Speaker 1: Stapleton dates two months after he arrives, and we're just
Speaker 1: gonna figure it out. But I think it helps that
Speaker 1: I don't think there was anyone with malintent in this,
Speaker 1: just think there was a lack of consideration and I
Speaker 1: hate that for.
Speaker 2: Marriage, some embarrassment on their side. Yeah, like like I
Speaker 2: mean honestly right, maybe at times I've found that where
Speaker 2: the people are embarrassed and meet stubbornness and they don't
Speaker 2: want to have to have the hard conversation, but just
Speaker 2: they're embarrassed.
Speaker 1: Or if someone feels they're sparing me something, well whatever,
Speaker 1: the proof is in the pudding with what has happened now,
Speaker 1: And I think it's like nice for me to share
Speaker 1: the story for any artists who feels maybe like they're
Speaker 1: attributing way too much of their value to these things
Speaker 1: that are totally like circumstantial, and they'll come and go
Speaker 1: like what you're saying, you just have to keep attempting
Speaker 1: and try and do it in the most sincere way.
Speaker 2: It doesn't work because it's not gonna work because if
Speaker 2: you're a tempting it there, things aren't gonna work.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's guaranteed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and everything's working and then you're not really trying hard.
Speaker 1: Enough, yes, yeah, or you're too comfortable, which is what
Speaker 1: you did when you came in and ruffled all the feathers.
Speaker 2: I am Maggie Rose, I am not. That's her Instagram name.
Speaker 2: I am Bobby. Go follow Maggie. Check out the music,
Speaker 2: and Maggie, good to see you, and good to see you.
Speaker 2: Good luck and I'll see you. Thanks for listening to
Speaker 2: a Bobby Cast production.