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Speaker 1: Hey everybody, it's me, W. Kamau Bell.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to episode 20 of my podcast, Who's With Me? Today,

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Speaker 2: my guest is independent journalist, Don Lemon. I never thought

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Speaker 2: I'd say that about Don Lemon. Independent journalist, Don Lemon.

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Speaker 2: Who's With Me? The podcast is based on my sub

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Speaker 2: stack of the same name. If you want to keep

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Speaker 2: up with what I'm doing and going on, the best

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Speaker 2: way is actually to subscribe to my sub stack. The

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Speaker 2: link is in the notes.

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Speaker 1: It's free.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you can throw me some money if you

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Speaker 2: want to, but it's the best way to keep up

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Speaker 2: with what I'm doing. Like, for example, this Thursday, if

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Speaker 2: you're in the Bay Area or the extended Bay Area

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Speaker 2: in Northern California, I'll be at Stanford University doing stand-up comedy.

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Speaker 2: October 1st at Stanford University doing stand-up comedy. Stanford's been

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Speaker 2: in the news recently. Apparently, they took a photo of

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Speaker 2: some Stanford kids and swapped out a Latino kid for

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Speaker 2: an AI black girl. And then they also took the

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Speaker 2: other two kids in the photo and slimmed them down

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Speaker 2: a little bit with some AI. So Stanford, we're going

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Speaker 2: to talk about it. Again, this Thursday, October 1st. Got

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Speaker 2: a couple great openers for my Stanford show. My good friend,

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Speaker 2: Nato Green, and Dr. Seema Yasmeen, who is a doctor,

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Speaker 2: medical doctor, and also a stand-up comic.

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Speaker 1: She used to be a contributor at CNN. That's how

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Speaker 1: I know her.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if we've ever met in life, but

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Speaker 2: we've corresponded as contributors on CNN.

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Speaker 1: Back in the day.

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Speaker 2: So anyway, yeah. So I'm looking forward to that show

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Speaker 2: because I don't have to get on a plane to

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Speaker 2: go there.

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Speaker 1: I just have to... Maybe I'll take the train down.

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Speaker 1: Who knows? You don't care. Also, again.

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Speaker 2: I have a show next year, February 20th, in Bellingham, Washington. Again,

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Speaker 2: who knows if that's even going to be a date,

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Speaker 2: February 20th, 2027. We've got the midterms coming up, November 3rd.

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Speaker 2: Make sure you vote by the time November 3rd shows up,

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Speaker 2: and we'll see what happens. Also, as always, my children's book, Rock, Paper, Scissors, Cheese,

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Speaker 2: comes out October 27th. Pre-order it now. The pre-orders help

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Speaker 2: us get on the bestseller list. So I would recommend

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Speaker 2: you either go to bookshop.org, which supports independent bookstores, or

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Speaker 2: order it directly from an independent bookstore. And if you

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Speaker 2: go to bookshop.org, you can find the independent bookstores in

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Speaker 2: your town. Hopefully you have one. Hopefully you have many. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so please order Rock, Paper, Scissors, and Cheese. It's a

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Speaker 2: picture book for young kids. It stars my family, as

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Speaker 2: you can see when you look in the book when

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Speaker 2: it comes out. But yeah, it's a fun time. It's

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Speaker 2: about creativity, about families, figuring out how to defeat boredom.

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Speaker 2: Me and my friend Adam Mansback, who wrote Go the

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Speaker 2: Fuck to Sleep, wrote this book, and the art is

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Speaker 2: by Brianna Chambers, and she really captured all my family,

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Speaker 2: including my mom. I've never done this before. I'm nervous

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Speaker 2: about a kid's book, but it's a great book. We

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Speaker 2: had a great time writing it, so please pre-order Rock, Paper, Scissors, Cheese.

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Speaker 2: If you do nothing today, pre-order Rock, Paper, Scissors, Cheese.

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Speaker 2: We'll do lots of other things, like take care of

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Speaker 2: yourself and your family. So last week was a pretty

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Speaker 2: big week for Who's With Me, the podcast. We taped

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Speaker 2: this interview with Don Lemon, and then also, We taped

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Speaker 2: an interview for upcoming episodes with one Megan Rapinoe and

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Speaker 2: one with young Colin Kaepernick. So the Colin Kaepernick episode

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Speaker 2: was actually recorded as a part of his book tour.

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Speaker 1: So it was live in front of an audience. We've

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Speaker 1: never done that before. It wasn't really our event.

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Speaker 2: It was a part of the National Association of Black Booksellers.

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Speaker 2: So they were sort of running it and it was

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Speaker 2: at the Black Repertory Theater in Berkeley. And it was

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Speaker 2: a part of Marcus Books, which is the oldest black

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Speaker 2: bookstore in the country. Here in Oakland was promoting it.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, it was a lot of people coming together.

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Speaker 2: And Colin Kaepernick was great. And we really had a

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Speaker 2: great conversation. But it's going to be very different because

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Speaker 2: it's live in front of an audience. They even had

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Speaker 2: audience on stage.

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Speaker 1: So what's going on?

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Speaker 2: Kind of everything. As you know, if you follow my work,

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Speaker 2: I have three daughters. My oldest daughter is now a teenager.

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Speaker 2: And I think that really means a lot right now

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Speaker 2: or really lands a lot right now because... I'm reading

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Speaker 2: a lot of stories in the news about teenage kids,

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Speaker 2: about black teenagers. I'm thinking about Nolan Wells. I'm thinking

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Speaker 2: about this young woman named Kendall Francis, an ex-LSU student.

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Speaker 2: I'm also thinking about the Cornell 7. And if you

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Speaker 2: don't know about all these cases, I can just give

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Speaker 2: you a heads up. But it's, you know, please go

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Speaker 2: do your own homework. Nolan Wells, you probably know about.

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Speaker 2: That's the most famous of those three news stories. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: they just did an autopsy on Nolan Wells' body. Again,

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Speaker 2: Nolan Wells went out partying with his all-white friend group

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Speaker 2: in southern Mississippi on an island off the coast of Mississippi.

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Speaker 2: And his friends came back, and Nolan never did, and

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Speaker 2: they found him dead. And his friends had his cell phone,

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Speaker 2: and they said he wanted to stay on the island,

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Speaker 2: which didn't make any sense. And, you know, just every

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Speaker 2: black person, every black parent was like, none of that

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Speaker 2: makes any sense. I mean, because at the very least,

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Speaker 2: I would say this. You don't leave your friend behind.

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Speaker 2: They said he wanted to stay behind, but why do

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Speaker 2: you have his phone? And also, if you're a good friend,

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Speaker 2: especially at that age, you don't leave your friend behind.

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Speaker 2: And if your friend insists on staying behind, then you

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Speaker 2: immediately call his people and say, hey, he's staying behind.

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Speaker 2: We just want to let you know. But why did

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Speaker 2: they have his phone? And all of them have lawyered up,

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Speaker 2: and they've said they had nothing to do with it.

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Speaker 2: But now an autopsy was done, an autopsy that was

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Speaker 2: partially paid for by Colin Kaepernick, actually. I don't know

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Speaker 2: if it was partially, but he gave money for the autopsy.

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Speaker 2: And it's just the whole thing. The grand jury has

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Speaker 2: come back and said, there's no foul play. There was

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Speaker 2: an accidental drowning, but then the new autopsy and some

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Speaker 2: digital forensics has happened. There's no, apparently no water found

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Speaker 2: in his breathing passages or in his stomach, which if

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Speaker 2: it was a drowning, the front water there. Also, they've

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Speaker 2: done a forensic analysis of his cell phone and it

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Speaker 2: was clear that Snapchat videos and messages were deleted.

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Speaker 1: And some of them were deleted after he died and they've.

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Speaker 2: Recovered some of those messages. So, It's as clear something

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Speaker 2: fucked up is happening. That's the only way I can

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Speaker 2: do it. Something racist is happening. Because even, let's just

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Speaker 2: say for a second that none of his friends are guilty.

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Speaker 2: The fact that it took social media, black people on

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Speaker 2: social media to call out the story when he was

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Speaker 2: just missing to get any measure of justice in play.

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Speaker 2: Racism is happening. White supremacy is happening. But also, it's

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Speaker 2: just too suspicious that all your friends lawyer up. And

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Speaker 2: as I read the Nolan Wells story, all I can

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Speaker 2: think about is my teenager. And I talk with my teenager.

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Speaker 2: I was like, hey, I know you. Luckily, she's got

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Speaker 2: a lot of black friends. Thank you, black Jesus. But

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Speaker 2: she's also got some white friends, of course, because we

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Speaker 2: live in the Bay Area. And I had to say

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Speaker 2: to her, I was like, hey, you hear about that

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Speaker 2: Nolan Wells thing?

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Speaker 1: She said, yeah.

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Speaker 2: And we talked about it. I said, look, just be careful.

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Speaker 2: Be careful going places with groups of just white people.

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Speaker 2: And we don't live in southern Mississippi, but I still

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Speaker 2: felt like you're You're old enough to be suspicious and

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Speaker 2: old enough to sort of go, hey, my dad told

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Speaker 2: me this. Maybe I shouldn't go with these people. And

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Speaker 2: I don't want to think I didn't tell you this.

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Speaker 2: So that's where we're at. And then we have this

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Speaker 2: story of the Cornell 7, which is one of those

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Speaker 2: things that sort of swept across my social media. And

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Speaker 2: I didn't really know what it was. I knew it

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Speaker 2: was something to do with sexual assault. And then you go, God,

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Speaker 2: I got to Google this and figure what this is.

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Speaker 2: And this Cornell 7 thing is just fucking crazy.

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Speaker 1: Awful.

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Speaker 2: It is just, I had to tell my mom about.

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Speaker 1: It and she was just like, I felt sick telling her.

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Speaker 1: We don't know the name of the woman.

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Speaker 2: She's going by Jane Doe because it's now, she's suing

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Speaker 2: Cornell University, Ivy League school. She is suing Cornell University

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Speaker 2: because she is accusing seven Cornell University students, some of

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Speaker 2: whom don't go there anymore, some of whom have moved

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Speaker 2: on from Cornell or graduated, a couple of whom were expelled,

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Speaker 2: of raping basically gang raping her that they gave her

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Speaker 2: some ketamine. She passed out. They then got on the

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Speaker 2: group chat and invited dudes over. And apparently five more

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Speaker 2: dudes showed up and they sexually assaulted her over seven hours.

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Speaker 2: It's just the worst story. She then reported the assault

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Speaker 2: three weeks later and the university got involved.

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Speaker 1: But here's the thing.

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Speaker 2: And I think this is the important part about this

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Speaker 2: story and also about the story with Kendall Francis, uh,

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Speaker 2: Kendall Francis, uh, said that in October 2025, an LSU

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Speaker 2: athlete invited her over, she was an LSU student at

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Speaker 2: the time, to, I guess, to hang out at his dorm,

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Speaker 2: and he raped her, and she reported it to the

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Speaker 2: LSU authorities, as did this Jane Doe at Cornell, reported

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Speaker 2: it to the Cornell University authorities, and those young women

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Speaker 2: thought they were going to law enforcement, which, let's be clear,

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Speaker 2: law enforcement is rarely the best in sexual assault cases

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Speaker 2: when women claim, want to say that they were assaulted.

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Speaker 2: You know, I did a whole documentary about that, which

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Speaker 2: I've mentioned on the podcast.

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Speaker 1: People go, why don't women tell? Women do tell.

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Speaker 2: And they often don't get the support they need from

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Speaker 2: law enforcement, often don't get the support they need from

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Speaker 2: their community. So these young women bravely stepped forward and

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Speaker 2: told their authorities of their university. In the Cornell case,

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Speaker 2: the university apparently found that they had sexually assaulted her,

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Speaker 2: these seven students. They expelled two of them, temporarily suspended some,

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Speaker 2: and then some, according to the news, had to write papers,

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Speaker 2: I guess, about sexual assault. That was their punishment, writing papers.

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Speaker 2: That's what her lawsuit alleges. So she is now suing

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Speaker 2: the school. Yeah, so she is not in the school anymore.

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Speaker 1: This is Cornell.

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Speaker 2: We don't know her name, but the names of these,

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Speaker 2: I'm going.

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Speaker 1: To say demons, are coming out.

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Speaker 2: And really, it's about the institution of Cornell University that they,

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Speaker 2: their law enforcement on campus is clearly there to protect

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Speaker 2: Cornell University, not to protect this young lady. And it's

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Speaker 2: the same as LSU. This lady, this young woman did

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Speaker 2: inform the LSU authorities. and they did an investigation and

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Speaker 2: they found that this, they believe that this young man,

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Speaker 2: this student athlete at LSU was guilty of this, but

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Speaker 2: they didn't then hand it over to criminal, to like

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Speaker 2: actual law enforcement. They just sort of said, yeah, he's

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Speaker 2: guilty and we'll handle it here. And she was like

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Speaker 2: waiting for law enforcement to show up and law enforcement

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Speaker 2: did not show up. She was waiting for law enforcement

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Speaker 2: to investigate her contact, like outside of the university.

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Speaker 1: And they did not. So then she made a video

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Speaker 1: to call out LSU.

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Speaker 2: And the thing that sort of binds all three of

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Speaker 2: these together is that justice is only happening because people.

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Speaker 1: On social media are demanding it.

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Speaker 2: The New York authorities, New York state authorities are opening

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Speaker 2: up an investigation back into the Cornell University case. And

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Speaker 2: I believe it's also happening with the LSU case that

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Speaker 2: there's going to be an investigation opened up. But it's

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Speaker 2: only happening because people on social media are calling for it.

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Speaker 2: Same thing happened with Nolan Wells. People on social media,

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Speaker 2: black people on social media were like, hey, this boy

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Speaker 2: is missing. Hey, this boy is dead. Hey, this doesn't

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Speaker 2: make sense. Hey, these guys are luring up. And it's

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Speaker 2: just a lot to put on us. The young woman

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Speaker 2: in the Cornell University case, we don't know anything about her.

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Speaker 2: She's Jane Doe. But I would say we do know

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Speaker 2: that Kendall Francis is black. We know that Nolan Wells

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Speaker 2: was black. And black people feel like we have to

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Speaker 2: be our own vigilantes. We have to be our own

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Speaker 2: journalists and reporters. But every black person on social media

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Speaker 2: who cares suddenly has to make a TikTok or an

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Speaker 2: Instagram reel about Nolan Wells or about the Cornell 7

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Speaker 2: or about Kendall Francis so that we can get justice,

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Speaker 2: some measure of justice, not even get justice, some measure

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Speaker 2: of justice, And that's a lot when you're already living

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Speaker 2: in a country that clearly doesn't give a shit about

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Speaker 2: us anyway.

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Speaker 1: It's just a lot.

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Speaker 2: And that's why people often, me and Don talk about this.

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Speaker 2: He at one point says, do you consider yourself a journalist?

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Speaker 2: And I go, yeah, I accept it now. But I

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Speaker 2: didn't for years because I was like, I'm not a journalist.

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Speaker 2: I'm just a person who cares and happens to have

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Speaker 2: a loud platform. And I'm not a journalist, but I

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Speaker 2: kind of accept it like, all right, I think I

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Speaker 2: am a journalist. I'm just doing it differently. you know,

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Speaker 2: me and Don came up very different ways. I came

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Speaker 2: through standup comedy. He came through old school, traditional journalism.

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Speaker 2: He's a little bit older than me. So he was

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Speaker 2: back doing journalism in the nineties when journalists were pretending

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Speaker 2: to be neutral all the time. And then he made

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Speaker 2: the transition to 2000s and then he came out as

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Speaker 2: gay and then he became sort of started. And then

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Speaker 2: when Trump was in office, that's when he did the

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Speaker 2: famous Donald Trump is a racist thing on CNN. So

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Speaker 2: the president is a racist and he started to put

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Speaker 2: his opinions out there more. And First of all, I

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Speaker 2: think every journalist has an opinion, and even when they

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Speaker 2: don't give you their opinion, they're giving you their opinion.

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Speaker 2: But I think it's been interesting to watch the evolution

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Speaker 2: of Don Lemon, and especially in these times when we

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Speaker 2: need people to be loud and clear about which side

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Speaker 2: they're on. And so I'm really proud of Don, who

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Speaker 2: I've known since I was back at CNN, back when

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Speaker 2: I started at CNN in like 2015.

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Speaker 1: We talk about that in this episode.

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Speaker 2: And we also talk about the fact that Don isn't

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Speaker 2: afraid of Pissing people off, you know, which is funny

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Speaker 2: because that's not the kind of journalism he was trained in.

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Speaker 2: But he's not afraid of pissing people off and getting

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Speaker 2: some dirt on him. And recently he got a little

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Speaker 2: bit of dirt on him. That's what I'm saying. I

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Speaker 2: don't know if Don would say that. When he got

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Speaker 2: into the middle of the Jasmine Crockett giving an award

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Speaker 2: to a commendation to.

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Speaker 1: Chris Brown in Texas.

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Speaker 2: So he was, I think he tried to both sides

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Speaker 2: a little bit too much in my opinion. But we

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Speaker 2: talk about that and how he sort of doesn't mind

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Speaker 2: getting some dirt on him. And also now that he's

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Speaker 2: an independent journalist, we talk about how he's outside in

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Speaker 2: the streets. He's out there in the streets every day

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Speaker 2: doing the damn thing. And that means sometimes he gets

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Speaker 2: caught up. He recently got caught up being out there

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Speaker 2: in the streets back in February, I believe it was,

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Speaker 2: when he was in Minneapolis. And him and a bunch

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Speaker 2: of people got arrested for just being outside. And there

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Speaker 2: was a peaceful protest. And Don and I saw another

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Speaker 2: independent journalist named Georgia Forte. were outside reporting on the

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Speaker 2: peaceful protest and they got scooped up by federal authorities.

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Speaker 2: And we talk about his case a little bit. He

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Speaker 2: can't talk about too much, but we also talk about

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Speaker 2: whether it's better to be famous in that situation or

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Speaker 2: not famous. Cause, cause Georgia Fort is a black independent

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Speaker 2: journalist and she's not famous. And Don is a famous

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Speaker 2: black independent journalist. And I argue that it's better to

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Speaker 2: be famous in that situation. But he says that means

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Speaker 2: everything happens in the case gets blamed on him. But anyway,

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Speaker 2: we had a great conversation.

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Speaker 1: I was happy. He would talk to me, uh, Anyway,

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Speaker 1: here's my conversation with Don Lemon. Hey, thanks for watching

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Speaker 1: an episode of Who's With Me. If you're on YouTube,

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Speaker 1: please like and subscribe, share, hit that hype button. I

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Speaker 1: hear it makes all the difference. Please like, subscribe, share,

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Speaker 1: hit the hype button. Thank you. Welcome Don Lemon to

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Speaker 1: Who's With Me, my podcast. Thank you for joining me.

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Speaker 3: You're welcome. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: It's good to see you, Kamal. It's good to be

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Speaker 1: seen and good to see you.

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Speaker 3: Remember we used to do something like every week or

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Speaker 3: something together, we would do a talk and then it

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Speaker 3: would end up getting everybody at the network in trouble

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Speaker 3: and we'd get....

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Speaker 2: Well, that's what I'm talking about. I want to start

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Speaker 2: there because I start every podcast giving people their flowers.

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Speaker 2: This is a thing I do to say, I don't

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Speaker 2: just have anybody on the podcast. I try to have

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Speaker 2: people on that I have them in community with. And

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Speaker 2: I remember when I first got to CNN and they

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Speaker 2: were trying to integrate me into the family of CNN,

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Speaker 2: Amy and Tellus, who you know, was like, would you

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Speaker 2: be on Don Lemon's show? And at the time, Don,

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Speaker 2: I got to admit, I mostly knew you for fighting

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Speaker 2: with Talib Kweli in the streets of Ferguson.

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Speaker 1: And so I was like, maybe? He seems kind of.

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Speaker 1: But I will say this.

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Speaker 2: Every time I was on your show from the very beginning,

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Speaker 2: you were very clear that you were welcoming me to

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Speaker 2: CNN and that I was a part of the family

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Speaker 2: and that you wanted.

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Speaker 1: Me to succeed.

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Speaker 3: Everybody that came on, all of the new people that

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Speaker 3: came on, And so that's why I was quite surprised

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Speaker 3: by what they said when I left, that I was

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Speaker 3: hard to work with.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, me?

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Speaker 3: What?

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Speaker 1: What are you talking about?

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Speaker 3: You knew that was some bullshit, right?

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Speaker 2: We can talk about it, because I certainly knew that

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Speaker 2: there was a lot of egos in CNN, first of all.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of like.

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Speaker 2: So I always felt when I was there that I

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Speaker 2: was just trying to stay against the wall and stay

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Speaker 2: out of sight until I was asked for. Because it

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Speaker 2: did not feel like, I felt like an outsider. Not

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Speaker 2: in a bad way, but just like there's a lot

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Speaker 2: going on.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you were like, I want to stay out of

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Speaker 4: the fray. There's a lot happening here. And this ain't

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Speaker 4: my business. This is not my business. And I'm going

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Speaker 4: to keep my head down until somebody says, come over here.

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Speaker 4: I was very aware that even the women in the

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Speaker 4: makeup room were higher up on the totem pole than

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Speaker 4: I was.

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Speaker 1: So I was like, I'm not trying to cause any problems.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. You're right.

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Speaker 3: The women in the makeup room were higher up because

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Speaker 3: they make everybody look good. So, you know, you were

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Speaker 3: going to go before they did. Unless you knew how

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Speaker 3: to do makeup.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I was like, thank you. Please. I did not.

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Speaker 1: I did not. So, yeah, so I want to say that.

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Speaker 2: And I even want to highlight the fact that I remember,

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Speaker 2: and I'm sure you remember this, that I got reached

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Speaker 2: out to after Chappelle had come out with one of

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Speaker 2: his specials talking about trans people. He's had so many.

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Speaker 2: And I got reached out to by your producer saying, hey,

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Speaker 2: come out. Do you want to come on the show

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Speaker 2: and talk about Chappelle and the trans thing? Because you

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Speaker 2: did an episode of United Shades about black trans women

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Speaker 2: in Dallas. And I was a little bit like, I

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Speaker 2: don't want to go on TV and look like I'm

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Speaker 2: beefing with Dave Chappelle.

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Speaker 1: And then you called me directly. and said, I need

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Speaker 1: you to come on. Do you remember this? Yes, I do.

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Speaker 1: Kind of, yeah. No, no, it's fine if you don't.

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Speaker 2: Or maybe it was a text, but it was definitely

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Speaker 2: a reach out from you personally that said, I want

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Speaker 2: you to come on tonight to talk about this. And

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Speaker 2: I did, and then I was out in the streets

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Speaker 2: and people talked to me about, why are you talking

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Speaker 2: about Chappelle? But I appreciated the fact that you had

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Speaker 2: specifically said, I want you to come on tonight, because

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Speaker 2: I did an episode about trans women.

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Speaker 1: In Dallas, Texas.

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Speaker 3: Well, thank you for that. Look, and you're always on

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Speaker 3: the mark, Kamau Bell. I've never known you to make

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Speaker 3: a real misstep. I've had some doozies, but you're pretty

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Speaker 3: much on top of your game. But I thought it

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Speaker 3: was an important conversation. And as you know, I'm not

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Speaker 3: like a gotcha person. I'm not going to ambush you

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Speaker 3: when you come on. You feel the way you feel,

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Speaker 3: then that's fine. And I feel the way I feel.

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Speaker 3: And if we agree, fine. If we don't agree, then

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Speaker 3: that's a whole other show. You know?

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And the final flowers I want to give you for is, man,

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Speaker 2: if there is anything I never expected you to be,

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Speaker 2: was outside all the time. And in your new era,

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00:18:37,534 --> 00:18:40,984
Speaker 2: you are outside all the time. And I just, I

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Speaker 2: saw you as a guy who really, and you can

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Speaker 2: talk about this, enjoyed that, like, I have a studio,

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Speaker 2: everybody comes here, whether it's electronically or in the studio,

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Speaker 2: and I get to talk to everybody who I want

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Speaker 2: to talk to.

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Speaker 1: But now you're out there in the streets, specifically.

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Speaker 2: Obviously in Minneapolis where you got caught.

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Speaker 1: Up out in the streets over some bullshit. We can

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Speaker 1: talk about that.

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Speaker 2: But I just appreciate the fact that you have, at

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Speaker 2: this point in your career, when you don't, it seems

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Speaker 2: like you don't really need.

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Speaker 1: To be out there in the streets, but you have

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Speaker 1: decided to go out there.

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Speaker 3: Well, because I've always, I'm glad you think that. Look,

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Speaker 3: did I enjoy the studio?

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Speaker 1: Of course.

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Speaker 3: Did I enjoy it? I enjoyed all of it. But

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Speaker 3: I never think that anything is permanent. And I've always

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Speaker 3: been a reporter at heart. Every time I wanted to

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Speaker 3: go out in the street and wanted to go on

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Speaker 3: big stories more and more and more. And, you know,

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Speaker 3: sometimes they had their picks who they thought should go.

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Speaker 3: And then whenever they let me out, I killed it. Like,

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Speaker 3: it was like, you were not going to beat me

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Speaker 3: on a story. I broke everything. And especially if it

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Speaker 3: was a black story, I'm like, mm-mm, I got this, right?

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Speaker 3: So I always wanted to go out more. And my

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Speaker 3: entire career, pretty much... Folks at the networks pushed me

431
00:19:44,404 --> 00:19:46,584
Speaker 3: towards anchor. They're like, we need an anchor. You're a

432
00:19:46,584 --> 00:19:48,564
Speaker 3: very good anchor. And then they put me in the

433
00:19:48,584 --> 00:19:49,924
Speaker 3: field and they go, you're a very good reporter. And

434
00:19:49,944 --> 00:19:51,384
Speaker 3: I said, well, why don't you let me field anchor?

435
00:19:51,984 --> 00:19:54,514
Speaker 3: So I would try to get out as much as possible.

436
00:19:54,554 --> 00:19:56,954
Speaker 3: But you say I don't need to be out there.

437
00:19:56,974 --> 00:20:00,293
Speaker 3: I think I do need to be out there. Because... Well,

438
00:20:00,314 --> 00:20:00,824
Speaker 3: I would say when you.

439
00:20:01,084 --> 00:20:03,724
Speaker 1: said by don't, I mean like you have choices.

440
00:20:03,764 --> 00:20:05,844
Speaker 2: It's not a thing that like, there's a sort of

441
00:20:05,904 --> 00:20:08,364
Speaker 2: a new style, style of journalist right now that they

442
00:20:08,404 --> 00:20:10,354
Speaker 2: started out there in the world. They didn't, there was

443
00:20:10,394 --> 00:20:12,054
Speaker 2: not an, there was not a studio to go to

444
00:20:12,374 --> 00:20:14,614
Speaker 2: where you seem like you've decided to actively go out there.

445
00:20:14,634 --> 00:20:16,734
Speaker 2: I don't mean I, you may as a human need

446
00:20:16,754 --> 00:20:18,074
Speaker 2: to be out there, but it seems like you have

447
00:20:18,114 --> 00:20:20,194
Speaker 2: choices also as a, as a, Yeah.

448
00:20:20,654 --> 00:20:22,634
Speaker 3: I mean, I didn't need to go out there. I

449
00:20:22,634 --> 00:20:25,314
Speaker 3: don't have to be on, right? I could just chill

450
00:20:25,374 --> 00:20:29,774
Speaker 3: and put my feet up. But I can't do that.

451
00:20:29,934 --> 00:20:31,994
Speaker 3: And I said that I had to be out there.

452
00:20:32,014 --> 00:20:33,234
Speaker 3: I feel that I have to be out there because

453
00:20:33,254 --> 00:20:37,754
Speaker 3: that's where you get the information. Every big story, if

454
00:20:37,794 --> 00:20:40,624
Speaker 3: it's a breaking news story, whether it's a shooting or

455
00:20:40,664 --> 00:20:44,964
Speaker 3: a bombing or a war or whatever it is, a

456
00:20:45,044 --> 00:20:47,204
Speaker 3: plane crash or a train crash, you're doing man on

457
00:20:47,224 --> 00:20:49,624
Speaker 3: the street reporting because you're talking to people at the scene.

458
00:20:50,354 --> 00:20:51,814
Speaker 3: So I don't look at it as something like, oh

459
00:20:51,834 --> 00:20:54,494
Speaker 3: my gosh, I'm above that or beyond that. That's just

460
00:20:54,574 --> 00:20:58,784
Speaker 3: called basic journalism 101. And also, especially in this day

461
00:20:58,804 --> 00:21:01,004
Speaker 3: and age, where you get so many people, as you know,

462
00:21:01,084 --> 00:21:04,424
Speaker 3: sitting around on these big shiny desks in suits and

463
00:21:04,504 --> 00:21:07,304
Speaker 3: cocktail dresses and hair, full of hair and makeup, and

464
00:21:07,324 --> 00:21:10,684
Speaker 3: they're all interviewing each other every single day. It's like, oh,

465
00:21:10,744 --> 00:21:12,644
Speaker 3: this person, what is this? When you get out there

466
00:21:12,664 --> 00:21:14,884
Speaker 3: and talk to the people, that's how you know in

467
00:21:14,884 --> 00:21:17,374
Speaker 3: 2024 that Donald Trump was probably going to win. And

468
00:21:17,414 --> 00:21:19,094
Speaker 3: when people were like, oh, Don, what are you doing?

469
00:21:19,114 --> 00:21:21,354
Speaker 3: I'm like, I'm hearing a lot of Trump out there.

470
00:21:22,634 --> 00:21:25,584
Speaker 3: You know, as I told you, I think in 2016,

471
00:21:25,584 --> 00:21:28,464
Speaker 3: I said, this man's probably going to win. People were

472
00:21:28,484 --> 00:21:30,344
Speaker 3: mad at me. And that's because I get out and

473
00:21:30,364 --> 00:21:33,464
Speaker 3: talk to people. A real life poll group and polling

474
00:21:33,864 --> 00:21:36,264
Speaker 3: and real life focus groups on the streets.

475
00:21:36,564 --> 00:21:37,394
Speaker 1: Well, same.

476
00:21:37,464 --> 00:21:39,814
Speaker 2: When I was doing United Shades, because I started when

477
00:21:39,874 --> 00:21:42,814
Speaker 2: Obama was still in office in his second term. And

478
00:21:42,994 --> 00:21:44,814
Speaker 2: as I was out there, I was also like, I

479
00:21:44,854 --> 00:21:48,614
Speaker 2: think this Trump thing is actually more serious than people

480
00:21:48,754 --> 00:21:51,574
Speaker 2: in New York or even people in Berkeley where I

481
00:21:51,594 --> 00:21:53,274
Speaker 2: was living at the time think it is.

482
00:21:53,334 --> 00:21:54,254
Speaker 1: Well, you know, right?

483
00:21:54,314 --> 00:21:57,334
Speaker 3: Because they tell you. I was out in Brooklyn the

484
00:21:57,374 --> 00:21:59,404
Speaker 3: other day and you think like you walk up to some,

485
00:21:59,494 --> 00:22:01,543
Speaker 3: most people think you walk up to a black man

486
00:22:01,564 --> 00:22:03,704
Speaker 3: or whatever, he's going to be like, oh yeah, this

487
00:22:03,724 --> 00:22:10,064
Speaker 3: guy was like Trump 2028. And I'm like, okay, this brother. Yeah.

488
00:22:11,424 --> 00:22:12,484
Speaker 1: We can get into lots of this.

489
00:22:12,784 --> 00:22:16,304
Speaker 2: How seriously do you take when Trump starts to, to

490
00:22:16,384 --> 00:22:19,924
Speaker 2: play footsies with the idea of Trump 2020?

491
00:22:19,924 --> 00:22:23,644
Speaker 3: I think you always take the person who is the

492
00:22:23,704 --> 00:22:27,054
Speaker 3: president of the United States seriously. And pretty much every

493
00:22:27,114 --> 00:22:32,794
Speaker 3: promise that he has made, pretty much, like policy-wise, he

494
00:22:32,834 --> 00:22:35,694
Speaker 3: has delivered. Like he said, look what I'm going to

495
00:22:35,714 --> 00:22:38,254
Speaker 3: do with immigration. I'm going to do this for taxes.

496
00:22:38,654 --> 00:22:40,484
Speaker 3: I'm going to do this with healthcare. And he did

497
00:22:40,544 --> 00:22:42,724
Speaker 3: all of them. The only thing that, things that he

498
00:22:42,764 --> 00:22:44,864
Speaker 3: hasn't been able to deliver on, and that is on

499
00:22:45,164 --> 00:22:47,524
Speaker 3: pretty much the economy. I was going.

500
00:22:48,124 --> 00:22:50,144
Speaker 2: To say, the ones that people would love him to

501
00:22:50,184 --> 00:22:55,064
Speaker 2: deliver on is lower gas prices, no more foreign wars.

502
00:22:55,644 --> 00:22:57,584
Speaker 3: Lower the price of goods. I'm going to give you

503
00:22:57,624 --> 00:23:00,023
Speaker 3: a doge check. I'm going to give you a tariff

504
00:23:00,154 --> 00:23:02,694
Speaker 3: rebate or refund check. None of those things have come

505
00:23:02,734 --> 00:23:05,214
Speaker 3: to fruition, and those are the things that people want.

506
00:23:05,434 --> 00:23:08,734
Speaker 3: For all the people who are crowing about, oh, he

507
00:23:08,774 --> 00:23:13,864
Speaker 3: gave me a STEMI check, back in 2020, whatever, during COVID.

508
00:23:14,224 --> 00:23:17,124
Speaker 3: I'm trying to tell them these people are so misinformed.

509
00:23:17,414 --> 00:23:21,454
Speaker 3: That wasn't Donald Trump. Donald Trump just wanted, he halted them, right?

510
00:23:21,494 --> 00:23:23,194
Speaker 3: He delayed them to put his name on it. That

511
00:23:23,214 --> 00:23:26,014
Speaker 3: was Nancy Pelosi. That was the Speaker of the House

512
00:23:26,034 --> 00:23:27,714
Speaker 3: who did that. And then now that he's in a

513
00:23:27,754 --> 00:23:29,954
Speaker 3: position to actually maybe be able to do it again,

514
00:23:29,974 --> 00:23:33,234
Speaker 3: he's not doing it. Did you get your COVID check?

515
00:23:33,294 --> 00:23:35,544
Speaker 3: Did you get your tariff check?

516
00:23:35,604 --> 00:23:36,544
Speaker 1: No, I haven't got my tariff check.

517
00:23:36,564 --> 00:23:37,024
Speaker 3: Your dose check?

518
00:23:37,334 --> 00:23:38,214
Speaker 1: Somebody added it up.

519
00:23:38,414 --> 00:23:41,544
Speaker 2: He's got, he owes us 13,000, I think 13,500 bucks.

520
00:23:41,584 --> 00:23:42,304
Speaker 1: He's what he owes us.

521
00:23:42,484 --> 00:23:45,264
Speaker 3: Does that include the 5,000 one for voting now?

522
00:23:45,304 --> 00:23:46,344
Speaker 1: That includes the new one. Yeah.

523
00:23:46,584 --> 00:23:46,684
Speaker 3: Yeah.

524
00:23:46,704 --> 00:23:48,724
Speaker 2: That includes the new, the bribe to vote for him

525
00:23:48,764 --> 00:23:52,034
Speaker 2: that somehow isn't illegal because somehow nothing is illegal when

526
00:23:52,134 --> 00:23:52,724
Speaker 2: Trump does it.

527
00:23:52,794 --> 00:23:55,354
Speaker 3: Yeah. But to answer your question, yeah, I take it seriously.

528
00:23:55,774 --> 00:23:58,954
Speaker 3: And look, he's got a Supreme court that is basically

529
00:23:59,434 --> 00:24:03,934
Speaker 3: under his thumb. Um, And if he, he's definitely going

530
00:24:03,954 --> 00:24:05,654
Speaker 3: to try and no one has been able to stop him.

531
00:24:05,694 --> 00:24:07,554
Speaker 3: He even defies federal judges right now.

532
00:24:08,314 --> 00:24:09,314
Speaker 1: So we'll see.

533
00:24:09,894 --> 00:24:11,234
Speaker 2: I'm glad you take it seriously because I take it

534
00:24:11,274 --> 00:24:13,804
Speaker 2: really seriously too, because it's very clear. If you just

535
00:24:13,824 --> 00:24:16,904
Speaker 2: look to what he's, he's done to the white house

536
00:24:16,924 --> 00:24:19,664
Speaker 2: with that ballroom, like he's been told several times, you're

537
00:24:19,684 --> 00:24:21,124
Speaker 2: not allowed to do these things. You're not allowed to

538
00:24:21,164 --> 00:24:24,284
Speaker 2: tear it down or with the Kennedy center. It's very possible.

539
00:24:24,324 --> 00:24:26,404
Speaker 2: He's going to knock down the Kennedy center, even though

540
00:24:26,784 --> 00:24:28,104
Speaker 2: judges are going to tell him he can't do that.

541
00:24:28,384 --> 00:24:30,523
Speaker 2: I just heard today that, that, that the arc that

542
00:24:30,544 --> 00:24:32,744
Speaker 2: he wants to build, Because he's not allowed to build it,

543
00:24:32,754 --> 00:24:34,774
Speaker 2: he's turning into, well, we need it for strategic. We'll

544
00:24:34,794 --> 00:24:37,564
Speaker 2: have drones and weapons inside the Ark because we need

545
00:24:37,604 --> 00:24:38,984
Speaker 2: it for strategic purposes.

546
00:24:43,154 --> 00:24:44,634
Speaker 3: What do you want me to say to that? I

547
00:24:44,714 --> 00:24:47,034
Speaker 3: don't even know what to say to that. It's crazy.

548
00:24:47,464 --> 00:24:50,644
Speaker 3: But again, we shouldn't be surprised. You heard him say, oh,

549
00:24:50,804 --> 00:24:52,964
Speaker 3: in the new ballroom, there's going to be all kinds

550
00:24:53,024 --> 00:24:56,904
Speaker 3: of weaponry and, I don't know, atomic. He's got weapons

551
00:24:57,304 --> 00:25:00,524
Speaker 3: inside the new ballroom or outside that can probably shoot people.

552
00:25:01,024 --> 00:25:02,644
Speaker 3: I'm worried that he's going to use that ballroom to

553
00:25:02,684 --> 00:25:03,854
Speaker 3: be a bunker and not come out.

554
00:25:04,204 --> 00:25:05,134
Speaker 1: I mean, and he would not.

555
00:25:05,234 --> 00:25:08,114
Speaker 2: He's only learning from the history of dictators and authoritarians

556
00:25:08,154 --> 00:25:09,074
Speaker 2: if he does something like that.

557
00:25:09,494 --> 00:25:11,114
Speaker 1: Am I wrong? No, you're not wrong.

558
00:25:11,194 --> 00:25:13,374
Speaker 2: Haven't you thought that? No, he said, I need it

559
00:25:13,394 --> 00:25:15,134
Speaker 2: for a bunker. They're like, there's already a bunker in

560
00:25:15,154 --> 00:25:17,954
Speaker 2: the White House that is perfectly fine. But I think

561
00:25:17,974 --> 00:25:20,684
Speaker 2: the fact that he's building one to his specifications is

562
00:25:20,724 --> 00:25:23,744
Speaker 2: because he plans on being here for a while. I mean,

563
00:25:23,764 --> 00:25:25,684
Speaker 2: I think about the White House. You don't own the

564
00:25:25,704 --> 00:25:28,084
Speaker 2: White House. You're basically renting or leasing the White House.

565
00:25:28,384 --> 00:25:30,704
Speaker 2: But he's treating it like he owns it. And to me,

566
00:25:30,724 --> 00:25:32,124
Speaker 2: if you start treating it like you own it, that

567
00:25:32,144 --> 00:25:32,904
Speaker 2: means you're not leaving.

568
00:25:33,784 --> 00:25:36,384
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, come on.

569
00:25:36,844 --> 00:25:37,024
Speaker 1: Yes.

570
00:25:37,244 --> 00:25:40,624
Speaker 3: It's public housing. There's no renting or leasing. He's living

571
00:25:40,644 --> 00:25:41,354
Speaker 3: in there for free.

572
00:25:41,704 --> 00:25:43,114
Speaker 1: He's living in there for free, yeah.

573
00:25:43,194 --> 00:25:45,854
Speaker 3: And making a lot of money. Most people wish that

574
00:25:45,874 --> 00:25:48,774
Speaker 3: they could move into public housing and then become billionaires.

575
00:25:48,934 --> 00:25:49,474
Speaker 3: I'm just saying.

576
00:25:49,654 --> 00:25:51,634
Speaker 2: Yeah, and use that public housing as a way to

577
00:25:51,654 --> 00:25:57,424
Speaker 2: become a billionaire. All right, let's go to some recent news. CNN, Politico,

578
00:25:57,724 --> 00:26:01,184
Speaker 2: MSNOW have been uninvited, kicked out of the White House

579
00:26:01,224 --> 00:26:01,764
Speaker 2: press pool.

580
00:26:03,084 --> 00:26:07,534
Speaker 3: What are your thoughts on that? First they came for them.

581
00:26:08,314 --> 00:26:10,924
Speaker 3: somebody else, and then nobody did anything, and then they

582
00:26:10,944 --> 00:26:12,844
Speaker 3: came for them, and then they came for me, and

583
00:26:12,864 --> 00:26:16,684
Speaker 3: there was nobody to stand for me. And don't I know.

584
00:26:17,864 --> 00:26:20,524
Speaker 3: And so I don't want to gloat or anything like that,

585
00:26:20,944 --> 00:26:23,704
Speaker 3: but I told you so. I've been telling them for

586
00:26:23,804 --> 00:26:26,134
Speaker 3: years since I was there, which is part of the reason,

587
00:26:26,614 --> 00:26:28,494
Speaker 3: and I believe the main reason that I got kicked out.

588
00:26:28,874 --> 00:26:32,014
Speaker 3: And then I told everybody, everybody when I got arrested,

589
00:26:32,194 --> 00:26:34,114
Speaker 3: if they do this to me, they can do it

590
00:26:34,134 --> 00:26:36,134
Speaker 3: to you. Not only can they, they will do it

591
00:26:36,154 --> 00:26:40,434
Speaker 3: to you. This administration And this president cares nothing about

592
00:26:40,454 --> 00:26:42,664
Speaker 3: the First Amendment, cares nothing about the freedom of the press.

593
00:26:42,694 --> 00:26:45,164
Speaker 3: And that is not me being, that's not an opinion.

594
00:26:45,204 --> 00:26:47,364
Speaker 3: He tells you, he calls the press fake news. He

595
00:26:47,404 --> 00:26:50,244
Speaker 3: just kicked them out, right? And so what he's doing

596
00:26:50,324 --> 00:26:54,364
Speaker 3: is wrong. However, I think that they did it to

597
00:26:54,404 --> 00:26:58,584
Speaker 3: themselves because they bent the knee. They settled lawsuits when

598
00:26:58,604 --> 00:27:00,884
Speaker 3: they didn't have to because they wanted to do business, right?

599
00:27:00,924 --> 00:27:03,404
Speaker 3: And that's not necessarily journalists there. Those are the people

600
00:27:03,764 --> 00:27:05,414
Speaker 3: who own the company, right? The people who are going

601
00:27:05,434 --> 00:27:08,304
Speaker 3: to make hundreds of millions of dollars off mergers. mergers

602
00:27:08,324 --> 00:27:10,204
Speaker 3: they wanted to go through. And if you have like

603
00:27:10,484 --> 00:27:12,904
Speaker 3: a Don Lemon or Jim Acosta or Kamau Bell sitting

604
00:27:12,924 --> 00:27:16,184
Speaker 3: there fucking it up by saying, well, this president is crazy.

605
00:27:16,264 --> 00:27:18,254
Speaker 1: And they're like, no, no, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh.

606
00:27:18,264 --> 00:27:21,244
Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying? So they did it to

607
00:27:21,284 --> 00:27:24,184
Speaker 3: themselves and now they're getting kicked out. When the folks said,

608
00:27:24,584 --> 00:27:29,744
Speaker 3: stand up to these people, as you say, they don't

609
00:27:29,904 --> 00:27:32,424
Speaker 3: own you. And if you have to do, I just

610
00:27:32,464 --> 00:27:35,634
Speaker 3: don't believe that it's worth any amount of money if

611
00:27:35,654 --> 00:27:37,954
Speaker 3: you're really a journalist. And the journalists aren't going to

612
00:27:37,974 --> 00:27:39,714
Speaker 3: make that much money anyways. They're just hanging on to

613
00:27:39,754 --> 00:27:42,574
Speaker 3: whatever contracts that they have now until the gravy train

614
00:27:42,614 --> 00:27:44,994
Speaker 3: is over. And so, look, I get it. I'm not judging.

615
00:27:45,054 --> 00:27:48,114
Speaker 3: I'm just saying that's what's happening, in my opinion. But

616
00:27:48,194 --> 00:27:52,104
Speaker 3: I think it's corporate media right now. They've completely sold

617
00:27:52,124 --> 00:27:54,523
Speaker 3: their souls to this administration, and now the chickens are

618
00:27:54,544 --> 00:27:55,344
Speaker 3: coming home to roost.

619
00:27:56,934 --> 00:27:59,934
Speaker 2: What would you, because people always on the outside are like,

620
00:27:59,994 --> 00:28:02,014
Speaker 2: why don't the journalists, like, you know, because he's been

621
00:28:02,054 --> 00:28:03,804
Speaker 2: rude to journalists in the White House.

622
00:28:03,924 --> 00:28:06,484
Speaker 1: Often the journalists he's rude to are black women. No,

623
00:28:06,784 --> 00:28:08,084
Speaker 1: you know, no surprise.

624
00:28:08,744 --> 00:28:11,004
Speaker 2: And people on the outside who are not journalists, just

625
00:28:11,024 --> 00:28:13,444
Speaker 2: people in America are like, why aren't the journalists all

626
00:28:13,464 --> 00:28:15,644
Speaker 2: standing up together? Why aren't they saying something? Why aren't

627
00:28:15,664 --> 00:28:19,574
Speaker 2: they doing something? What do you think journalists should do

628
00:28:19,704 --> 00:28:23,914
Speaker 2: in these instances when they're seeing their colleagues being verbally

629
00:28:23,974 --> 00:28:26,664
Speaker 2: assaulted either by President Trump or the press secretary or

630
00:28:26,684 --> 00:28:27,364
Speaker 2: anyone else in there?

631
00:28:28,124 --> 00:28:32,384
Speaker 3: Have a backbone, have some balls. I look at journalists

632
00:28:32,684 --> 00:28:36,684
Speaker 3: as doctors and attorneys where you do no harm, you

633
00:28:36,704 --> 00:28:39,324
Speaker 3: take an oath. And I think the same thing, the

634
00:28:39,364 --> 00:28:41,404
Speaker 3: best way to do no harm is to tell the

635
00:28:41,464 --> 00:28:44,944
Speaker 3: truth and not let the gatekeepers influence what you can

636
00:28:44,984 --> 00:28:50,874
Speaker 3: report on. Because as I've been saying for months now

637
00:28:50,944 --> 00:28:53,184
Speaker 3: since it happened to me, the moment you have people

638
00:28:53,204 --> 00:28:56,004
Speaker 3: start telling you who you can report on, how you

639
00:28:56,024 --> 00:28:58,374
Speaker 3: can report on it, where you can report on it,

640
00:28:58,944 --> 00:29:01,824
Speaker 3: and all of the whatever, who, what, when, where, why,

641
00:29:01,864 --> 00:29:06,384
Speaker 3: and how, it's over. It's no longer a free press.

642
00:29:06,424 --> 00:29:08,884
Speaker 3: And that's what's happened. He's telling you, you can't report

643
00:29:08,944 --> 00:29:11,934
Speaker 3: on me unless you report on me this way. This

644
00:29:11,974 --> 00:29:13,474
Speaker 3: is how you have to report on. This is who

645
00:29:13,494 --> 00:29:15,114
Speaker 3: you can report on. And you can't come to the

646
00:29:15,214 --> 00:29:17,374
Speaker 3: White House. This is where you can report on it.

647
00:29:17,734 --> 00:29:20,334
Speaker 3: And this is, as a Pentagon is telling you, by making,

648
00:29:20,374 --> 00:29:21,914
Speaker 3: they've been saying, you have to sign this thing. They're

649
00:29:21,934 --> 00:29:26,354
Speaker 3: telling you what you can report on. And that's what

650
00:29:26,774 --> 00:29:30,274
Speaker 3: fascists do. That's what dictators do. That's what authoritarians do.

651
00:29:30,734 --> 00:29:33,894
Speaker 3: And so that's what's happening right now. If they want

652
00:29:33,914 --> 00:29:36,094
Speaker 3: to fix this, and they're not going to do it,

653
00:29:36,134 --> 00:29:39,134
Speaker 3: because everybody, it's all about the Benjamins, right? They would

654
00:29:39,174 --> 00:29:45,914
Speaker 3: stop making newsrooms, corporate centers, profit centers for networks, and

655
00:29:45,954 --> 00:29:48,804
Speaker 3: just let journalists be journalists. Because The thing that matters

656
00:29:48,864 --> 00:29:50,324
Speaker 3: the most at the end of the day is that

657
00:29:50,344 --> 00:29:52,484
Speaker 3: we keep our democracy, we keep our First Amendment, that

658
00:29:52,524 --> 00:29:56,564
Speaker 3: we keep our country and our politicians intact. Not that

659
00:29:56,584 --> 00:29:59,074
Speaker 3: someone is going to make $ 100 million or $ 500 million

660
00:29:59,174 --> 00:30:00,454
Speaker 3: on a merger. When is $ 100 million enough?

661
00:30:00,474 --> 00:30:00,954
Speaker 1: How many are enough?

662
00:30:01,014 --> 00:30:01,954
Speaker 3: And so, again, what should they do?

663
00:30:01,954 --> 00:30:02,394
Speaker 1: I think that.

664
00:30:11,024 --> 00:30:13,804
Speaker 3: When they're in the briefing room and someone like Caroline

665
00:30:13,844 --> 00:30:18,304
Speaker 3: Levitt starts yelling at a reporter and abusing them, as

666
00:30:18,324 --> 00:30:20,464
Speaker 3: soon as she's done, I would ask the same question

667
00:30:20,744 --> 00:30:24,034
Speaker 3: as that reporter. Or I would ask Donald Trump why

668
00:30:24,074 --> 00:30:26,194
Speaker 3: he feels it's okay to call a woman a piggy

669
00:30:26,794 --> 00:30:31,374
Speaker 3: or to denigrate anybody, any reporter. I would say, first

670
00:30:31,394 --> 00:30:33,374
Speaker 3: of all, with all due respect, Mr. President, we don't

671
00:30:33,414 --> 00:30:35,994
Speaker 3: work for you. You work for us. We are the

672
00:30:36,094 --> 00:30:38,734
Speaker 3: representatives of the people. We're asking questions for the people.

673
00:30:39,434 --> 00:30:41,694
Speaker 3: And I think that maybe you should realize that. I'm

674
00:30:41,714 --> 00:30:44,174
Speaker 3: not saying this because I personally care about what you

675
00:30:44,274 --> 00:30:47,414
Speaker 3: have to say. This is my job. And I care

676
00:30:47,434 --> 00:30:49,394
Speaker 3: that I'm doing my job for the American people. You

677
00:30:49,414 --> 00:30:51,454
Speaker 3: can answer however you want, but you do not have

678
00:30:51,494 --> 00:30:53,494
Speaker 3: to be insulting. And I would just say, in my

679
00:30:53,554 --> 00:30:55,454
Speaker 3: humble opinion, as someone who's been a journalist and has

680
00:30:55,474 --> 00:30:58,174
Speaker 3: been doing this for 30 years and had the experience

681
00:30:58,414 --> 00:31:02,824
Speaker 3: reporting on everybody, I feel that this administration, including you, again,

682
00:31:02,864 --> 00:31:05,464
Speaker 3: with all due respect, have forgotten that you are public servants.

683
00:31:07,844 --> 00:31:10,584
Speaker 3: But they will never do that And I think everybody,

684
00:31:10,624 --> 00:31:14,104
Speaker 3: as soon as they said CNN can't come in and whatever, everybody,

685
00:31:14,164 --> 00:31:16,904
Speaker 3: I'd say, pack your shit up. Every network representative should

686
00:31:16,924 --> 00:31:18,224
Speaker 3: be saying, pack your shit up and let's go.

687
00:31:18,244 --> 00:31:18,964
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

688
00:31:19,584 --> 00:31:23,554
Speaker 3: And then doubling down on some actual reporting. Because, Kamau,

689
00:31:24,034 --> 00:31:25,614
Speaker 3: you've been in this game for a long time. Mm-hmm.

690
00:31:25,634 --> 00:31:27,434
Speaker 3: Much comes out of those briefings.

691
00:31:27,474 --> 00:31:30,194
Speaker 1: That's a show. It's propaganda. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

692
00:31:30,494 --> 00:31:32,274
Speaker 2: It's not where major news is usually made.

693
00:31:32,654 --> 00:31:34,914
Speaker 3: No. No, because I use this example all the time.

694
00:31:35,894 --> 00:31:38,054
Speaker 3: The reporters I see that's breaking the big shit.

695
00:31:38,534 --> 00:31:38,734
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

696
00:31:39,144 --> 00:31:42,594
Speaker 3: Are not in briefings or in photo ops in the thing, right?

697
00:31:42,714 --> 00:31:45,214
Speaker 3: In the Oval Office. While they're in the Oval Office

698
00:31:45,234 --> 00:31:48,234
Speaker 3: with the bullshit, they're really looking behind the scenes to

699
00:31:48,254 --> 00:31:50,614
Speaker 3: see what is happening. I have never seen Maggie Haberman.

700
00:31:50,634 --> 00:31:52,894
Speaker 3: I know she's been there before, but I haven't seen

701
00:31:52,934 --> 00:31:54,394
Speaker 3: her recently when she's breaking all this shit. Have you

702
00:31:54,414 --> 00:31:56,414
Speaker 3: seen her in the briefing room? No. Being insulted?

703
00:31:56,454 --> 00:31:56,594
Speaker 2: No.

704
00:31:56,974 --> 00:31:58,794
Speaker 3: She breaks some good shit, right? Have you seen Jonathan

705
00:31:58,824 --> 00:31:59,664
Speaker 3: Swan in the briefing room?

706
00:31:59,974 --> 00:32:00,144
Speaker 1: No.

707
00:32:00,444 --> 00:32:01,084
Speaker 3: That's all I'm saying.

708
00:32:01,464 --> 00:32:05,754
Speaker 2: Yeah, the job of those reporters... I mean, it's sort

709
00:32:05,774 --> 00:32:07,944
Speaker 2: of an outdated thing. It sort of takes us back

710
00:32:07,964 --> 00:32:10,424
Speaker 2: to a time before there was the internet. So people

711
00:32:10,464 --> 00:32:11,744
Speaker 2: had to be in the room to say the president

712
00:32:11,764 --> 00:32:14,284
Speaker 2: said this to put it in the newspaper so Americans

713
00:32:14,304 --> 00:32:17,704
Speaker 2: could read it the next day. But technology has made

714
00:32:17,744 --> 00:32:19,964
Speaker 2: that sort of an obsolete position. So if you're going

715
00:32:19,984 --> 00:32:22,264
Speaker 2: to be in there, you might as well, yeah. Can

716
00:32:22,284 --> 00:32:22,924
Speaker 2: I ask you a question?

717
00:32:22,964 --> 00:32:23,124
Speaker 1: Sure.

718
00:32:24,464 --> 00:32:28,654
Speaker 3: If everybody removed those cameras and those feeds from the

719
00:32:28,684 --> 00:32:30,694
Speaker 3: White House in the briefing room and nobody showed up

720
00:32:30,754 --> 00:32:33,094
Speaker 3: at his little photo ops in the afternoon in the

721
00:32:33,174 --> 00:32:34,714
Speaker 3: Oval Office, what do you think would happen?

722
00:32:36,484 --> 00:32:42,164
Speaker 2: He'd be so sad. He'd be so sad. Where did

723
00:32:42,204 --> 00:32:45,964
Speaker 2: my party go? Quickly, get those press passes back to them.

724
00:32:46,144 --> 00:32:51,014
Speaker 2: I'm not on TV. If we just stop reporting on his...

725
00:32:51,754 --> 00:32:53,654
Speaker 2: Of course, there's a reason to pay attention to him,

726
00:32:53,774 --> 00:32:56,474
Speaker 2: but not pay attention to everything he says every moment

727
00:32:56,594 --> 00:32:58,974
Speaker 2: and under the circumstances to which he wants to create,

728
00:32:58,994 --> 00:32:59,374
Speaker 2: of course.

729
00:32:59,994 --> 00:33:02,054
Speaker 3: You can report on someone without actually having them on.

730
00:33:03,634 --> 00:33:06,364
Speaker 3: You can call them for a response. You can ask

731
00:33:06,384 --> 00:33:08,024
Speaker 3: their PR people for a response, but you don't have

732
00:33:08,044 --> 00:33:09,904
Speaker 3: to put their face on there. You can say, does

733
00:33:09,924 --> 00:33:12,464
Speaker 3: the president have a response to this? Okay, we reached

734
00:33:12,484 --> 00:33:13,964
Speaker 3: out to the president. There was no response.

735
00:33:17,044 --> 00:33:33,954
Speaker 2: Thank you. So you're saying as soon as they say

736
00:33:34,034 --> 00:33:38,134
Speaker 2: no more CNN, no more MSNOW, no more Politico, and

737
00:33:38,174 --> 00:33:40,074
Speaker 2: if you had been there and you'd be like, all right,

738
00:33:40,114 --> 00:33:41,894
Speaker 2: let's all take our stuff and not show up here anymore.

739
00:33:42,034 --> 00:33:42,474
Speaker 1: We're done here.

740
00:33:42,514 --> 00:33:43,854
Speaker 3: If I was the head of a network, I would.

741
00:33:44,094 --> 00:33:44,854
Speaker 1: If you're the head of a network.

742
00:33:44,894 --> 00:33:46,934
Speaker 3: That's what I would say. Yeah. But if I were there,

743
00:33:47,194 --> 00:33:48,934
Speaker 3: and that's probably the reason I'm not there, I would

744
00:33:48,974 --> 00:33:51,874
Speaker 3: stand up for my fellow journalists if they were insulted

745
00:33:51,974 --> 00:33:54,314
Speaker 3: or if their questions did not get answered. Because if,

746
00:33:55,214 --> 00:33:57,854
Speaker 3: what do they say? None of us is free until

747
00:33:57,894 --> 00:33:58,514
Speaker 3: we all are free.

748
00:33:58,734 --> 00:33:59,294
Speaker 1: Yeah. You know?

749
00:33:59,834 --> 00:34:04,104
Speaker 3: Yeah. And so same thing. ABC is next. um yeah

750
00:34:04,184 --> 00:34:06,684
Speaker 3: they love cbs now nbc is next i'm just saying

751
00:34:06,844 --> 00:34:09,564
Speaker 3: or it could be you know cnbc or.

752
00:34:09,764 --> 00:34:13,194
Speaker 1: Whoever even fox yeah you're next yeah if.

753
00:34:13,183 --> 00:34:15,954
Speaker 2: You don't stand up you're certainly on notice you're certainly

754
00:34:16,234 --> 00:34:18,873
Speaker 2: like you i've told i've told you what i why

755
00:34:18,913 --> 00:34:20,393
Speaker 2: i kicked them out because they're not nice enough to

756
00:34:20,433 --> 00:34:22,393
Speaker 2: me so now everybody's on notice to be nice to me.

757
00:34:23,114 --> 00:34:26,714
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm so i've heard that what i told that to

758
00:34:26,734 --> 00:34:27,834
Speaker 3: you what if you told that to your.

759
00:34:27,754 --> 00:34:31,584
Speaker 2: Wife I'd be sleeping in this office I'm talking to

760
00:34:31,604 --> 00:34:33,024
Speaker 2: you in right now instead of just here for a

761
00:34:33,064 --> 00:34:33,584
Speaker 2: few hours.

762
00:34:33,703 --> 00:34:37,243
Speaker 1: I'd have a little pillow and a little sleeping bag

763
00:34:37,263 --> 00:34:37,593
Speaker 1: over here.

764
00:34:38,274 --> 00:34:39,533
Speaker 3: You must be nice to me.

765
00:34:39,814 --> 00:34:40,134
Speaker 1: What?

766
00:34:40,254 --> 00:34:41,074
Speaker 3: Yeah. Okay.

767
00:34:41,413 --> 00:34:43,314
Speaker 1: So you mentioned a couple times, I want to bring

768
00:34:43,334 --> 00:34:45,633
Speaker 1: this up, because I was in, after.

769
00:34:45,373 --> 00:34:48,573
Speaker 2: Your arrest in Minneapolis, I went out there to make

770
00:34:48,594 --> 00:34:50,834
Speaker 2: some videos too. Not because of that, but just sort

771
00:34:50,854 --> 00:34:52,814
Speaker 2: of because everybody was going out there and I wanted

772
00:34:52,854 --> 00:34:54,334
Speaker 2: to be, same way you want to be outside, I

773
00:34:54,354 --> 00:34:55,014
Speaker 2: want to be outside.

774
00:34:55,033 --> 00:34:58,623
Speaker 1: Okay. Can you talk a little bit about where that's at,

775
00:34:58,723 --> 00:34:59,784
Speaker 1: your legal case?

776
00:35:01,404 --> 00:35:03,764
Speaker 3: I can tell you what you read in the papers,

777
00:35:03,783 --> 00:35:06,723
Speaker 3: what you read online. That's where it is. Delays, because

778
00:35:06,763 --> 00:35:10,433
Speaker 3: they don't really have the manpower. There's an arrest in

779
00:35:10,493 --> 00:35:12,934
Speaker 3: search of evidence, which you're supposed to get that first.

780
00:35:14,413 --> 00:35:16,493
Speaker 3: And as we are taping this, the events that are

781
00:35:16,533 --> 00:35:20,114
Speaker 3: happening today, I think, speak louder than anything about the case,

782
00:35:20,243 --> 00:35:23,683
Speaker 3: my case. So what people are feeling today being kicked out...

783
00:35:25,444 --> 00:35:29,203
Speaker 3: It's similar, not the same, because my freedom was taken away, right?

784
00:35:29,263 --> 00:35:31,044
Speaker 3: At least they're free. At least they're not in jail.

785
00:35:32,084 --> 00:35:34,763
Speaker 3: And so mine is a more severe case of what's

786
00:35:34,783 --> 00:35:38,703
Speaker 3: going on now. So it's what you read. There are

787
00:35:38,743 --> 00:35:43,143
Speaker 3: motions going on. People think the law is like law

788
00:35:43,183 --> 00:35:43,544
Speaker 3: and order.

789
00:35:44,223 --> 00:35:46,953
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It'll be done in an hour.

790
00:35:47,053 --> 00:35:49,734
Speaker 3: Yeah, you got the first 30 or 20 minutes where

791
00:35:49,754 --> 00:35:51,334
Speaker 3: you set up the thing and it happened. And then

792
00:35:51,373 --> 00:35:53,013
Speaker 3: all of a sudden, they go to court. They're looking

793
00:35:53,053 --> 00:35:54,334
Speaker 3: for evidence. And they go to court. And then at

794
00:35:54,373 --> 00:35:59,214
Speaker 3: the end, It doesn't happen that way because the process

795
00:35:59,354 --> 00:36:01,504
Speaker 3: is the punishment. And as long as they can delay

796
00:36:01,544 --> 00:36:03,944
Speaker 3: it and make your life miserable, that's what they will do.

797
00:36:04,123 --> 00:36:05,064
Speaker 3: And that's what's happening now.

798
00:36:06,404 --> 00:36:08,123
Speaker 2: So when we talk about your case, I also want

799
00:36:08,143 --> 00:36:11,113
Speaker 2: to make sure because I think people get.

800
00:36:11,134 --> 00:36:12,013
Speaker 3: They think it's over.

801
00:36:12,254 --> 00:36:14,093
Speaker 2: Well, they think it's over. And they also forget there

802
00:36:14,114 --> 00:36:15,553
Speaker 2: was more than one person arrested that day.

803
00:36:16,024 --> 00:36:17,863
Speaker 3: Yeah, there were a number of people arrested. I think,

804
00:36:17,984 --> 00:36:20,323
Speaker 3: was it like 50-some people? I can't remember. 30-some people?

805
00:36:20,344 --> 00:36:23,044
Speaker 1: I can't remember exactly. And another journalist.

806
00:36:23,243 --> 00:36:27,424
Speaker 3: I think there were four altogether, but Georgia Fort. The

807
00:36:27,444 --> 00:36:30,584
Speaker 3: other two were journalists or journalists adjacent, the other few

808
00:36:30,623 --> 00:36:36,084
Speaker 3: who they were. But the actual reporter or anchors was

809
00:36:36,143 --> 00:36:36,824
Speaker 3: me and Georgia.

810
00:36:37,424 --> 00:36:40,184
Speaker 2: Can you let these people, spare some words for Georgia Fort,

811
00:36:41,033 --> 00:36:41,754
Speaker 2: let these people know?

812
00:36:42,154 --> 00:36:43,684
Speaker 3: Well, Georgia Fort is dealing with the same shit that

813
00:36:43,703 --> 00:36:45,814
Speaker 3: I'm dealing with. And Georgia Fort is, from what I

814
00:36:45,854 --> 00:36:48,493
Speaker 3: can tell, was doing her job and appears to be

815
00:36:48,513 --> 00:36:52,373
Speaker 3: a damn good reporter. I didn't know her. She was

816
00:36:52,473 --> 00:36:54,393
Speaker 3: on my show. The reason that I knew who she

817
00:36:54,453 --> 00:36:57,274
Speaker 3: was is that there was a community activist who came

818
00:36:57,334 --> 00:37:00,334
Speaker 3: on the show talking about, he kind of disrupted a

819
00:37:00,893 --> 00:37:03,814
Speaker 3: council meeting and had a moment and we had him

820
00:37:03,933 --> 00:37:05,854
Speaker 3: on and he said, oh, you should have a local reporter.

821
00:37:05,873 --> 00:37:07,593
Speaker 3: It's really great to have Georgia Fort on. And then

822
00:37:07,614 --> 00:37:10,093
Speaker 3: there's another activist you should have on named Nakima. And

823
00:37:10,134 --> 00:37:11,254
Speaker 3: I said, oh, sure. I had him on the show.

824
00:37:11,694 --> 00:37:13,834
Speaker 3: I said, send me the information. He sent me the information,

825
00:37:14,134 --> 00:37:16,073
Speaker 3: handed it off to producers, and then they came on

826
00:37:16,094 --> 00:37:17,944
Speaker 3: the show, and that's it. I wouldn't know them from

827
00:37:18,044 --> 00:37:20,403
Speaker 3: Adam had they not been on. And then when I

828
00:37:20,464 --> 00:37:22,884
Speaker 3: decided to go there, which was just a couple days later,

829
00:37:23,444 --> 00:37:25,544
Speaker 3: people said, oh, you should cover this. And I didn't

830
00:37:25,564 --> 00:37:29,383
Speaker 3: even know Georgia was there covering it because I'd never

831
00:37:29,484 --> 00:37:31,384
Speaker 3: met her in person. I don't remember seeing her. I

832
00:37:31,384 --> 00:37:34,823
Speaker 3: don't think I saw her. Maybe I think I saw

833
00:37:34,864 --> 00:37:36,824
Speaker 3: her outside of the church or maybe in the thing,

834
00:37:36,864 --> 00:37:38,993
Speaker 3: but I had no idea who Georgia was, and I

835
00:37:39,013 --> 00:37:40,694
Speaker 3: had never met Nakeem a day in my life. I

836
00:37:40,734 --> 00:37:41,093
Speaker 3: had no idea.

837
00:37:41,114 --> 00:37:41,334
Speaker 1: Yeah.

838
00:37:41,884 --> 00:37:47,004
Speaker 3: So, um, um, yeah, so that's Georgia is, as I said,

839
00:37:47,024 --> 00:37:49,484
Speaker 3: by my account seems to be a pretty damn good reporter.

840
00:37:49,584 --> 00:37:51,643
Speaker 3: We can't be in contact with each other because that's

841
00:37:51,663 --> 00:37:53,723
Speaker 3: just how it is legally, but I wish her the

842
00:37:53,763 --> 00:37:55,923
Speaker 3: very best and I'm praying for her and hoping things

843
00:37:55,964 --> 00:37:56,564
Speaker 3: work out for her.

844
00:37:57,004 --> 00:37:59,024
Speaker 2: Yeah. I just think that it's important to mention her because,

845
00:37:59,364 --> 00:38:02,584
Speaker 2: you know, you have the benefit of celebrity. You are,

846
00:38:02,803 --> 00:38:05,623
Speaker 2: you're both journalists doing the same work, similar work, but

847
00:38:05,663 --> 00:38:07,703
Speaker 2: you have the benefit of celebrity as far as like

848
00:38:07,743 --> 00:38:09,504
Speaker 2: people are going to be tracking what happens to you

849
00:38:09,544 --> 00:38:10,924
Speaker 2: in a way that they may not be tracking what

850
00:38:10,964 --> 00:38:11,504
Speaker 2: happens to her.

851
00:38:11,873 --> 00:38:14,033
Speaker 3: I understand that. Is that a benefit though? Because every

852
00:38:14,134 --> 00:38:15,774
Speaker 3: little thing that happens in the case, even if it

853
00:38:15,814 --> 00:38:17,604
Speaker 3: has nothing to do with me, they call it Don

854
00:38:17,623 --> 00:38:20,044
Speaker 3: Lemon's case. And I'm like, this is funny.

855
00:38:20,884 --> 00:38:23,283
Speaker 2: I mean, it is a benefit in that they can't

856
00:38:23,324 --> 00:38:25,723
Speaker 2: just disappear you because people will be like, what happened

857
00:38:25,743 --> 00:38:26,214
Speaker 2: to Don?

858
00:38:26,294 --> 00:38:28,163
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? I think that like, Yeah,

859
00:38:28,183 --> 00:38:28,724
Speaker 1: but if.

860
00:38:28,544 --> 00:38:31,604
Speaker 3: A lawyer for some other, like a protester, makes a motion,

861
00:38:31,904 --> 00:38:33,663
Speaker 3: they call it the Don Lemon case. But it's not

862
00:38:33,723 --> 00:38:35,323
Speaker 3: actually the Don Lemon case. I just happen to be

863
00:38:35,524 --> 00:38:37,404
Speaker 3: one of them in there. This is, you know, I

864
00:38:37,404 --> 00:38:40,584
Speaker 3: think it's, anyways. But I get it because I'm the name.

865
00:38:40,663 --> 00:38:41,683
Speaker 1: I mean, don't you think it helps a.

866
00:38:41,683 --> 00:38:44,504
Speaker 2: Little bit that the trouble that comes with it, I

867
00:38:44,544 --> 00:38:46,544
Speaker 2: would imagine, is outweighed by the fact that there's a

868
00:38:46,564 --> 00:38:48,604
Speaker 2: little bit of protection because they can't just sort of,

869
00:38:49,104 --> 00:38:52,084
Speaker 2: they can't ignore you. They can't just, they can't just string,

870
00:38:52,143 --> 00:38:53,564
Speaker 2: if they string you out forever, you're going to be

871
00:38:53,604 --> 00:38:55,904
Speaker 2: able to get on the public microphone and say something.

872
00:38:57,223 --> 00:38:57,504
Speaker 1: Yeah.

873
00:38:58,024 --> 00:39:00,903
Speaker 3: I guess so. But, I mean, I don't have the

874
00:39:00,944 --> 00:39:03,314
Speaker 3: complexion for protection. I mean, I don't know if that offers– No, you.

875
00:39:03,263 --> 00:39:05,314
Speaker 1: Don't have– I'm not saying you have– I'm not giving

876
00:39:05,354 --> 00:39:07,493
Speaker 1: you white people points. Let me be clear. You're a

877
00:39:07,533 --> 00:39:08,414
Speaker 1: black gay man.

878
00:39:08,533 --> 00:39:13,114
Speaker 2: I'm saying that you are– I'm saying it's compared to

879
00:39:13,154 --> 00:39:15,473
Speaker 2: someone like Georgia who's a black woman who already is

880
00:39:15,513 --> 00:39:17,693
Speaker 2: dealing with the abuse that black women get just for

881
00:39:17,754 --> 00:39:20,933
Speaker 2: existing and then is also in this situation and doesn't

882
00:39:20,973 --> 00:39:22,834
Speaker 2: have the same level of fame that you have.

883
00:39:22,873 --> 00:39:23,533
Speaker 1: That's all I'm saying.

884
00:39:23,553 --> 00:39:26,723
Speaker 3: Yeah. Do you think that this would be, if I

885
00:39:26,783 --> 00:39:28,863
Speaker 3: wasn't this, if I wasn't there, what do you think

886
00:39:28,884 --> 00:39:31,823
Speaker 3: this would be? Would you have heard about it? No.

887
00:39:32,504 --> 00:39:34,554
Speaker 2: I think maybe I would have heard about it because

888
00:39:34,614 --> 00:39:36,334
Speaker 2: I'm that level of nerd, but I think your average

889
00:39:36,354 --> 00:39:38,513
Speaker 2: person wouldn't have heard about it at all.

890
00:39:38,634 --> 00:39:39,193
Speaker 1: No, for sure.

891
00:39:39,214 --> 00:39:41,933
Speaker 3: I wonder if anything would. have happened either.

892
00:39:41,953 --> 00:39:45,354
Speaker 2: I mean, I think this administration has shown that it's

893
00:39:45,373 --> 00:39:48,334
Speaker 2: willing to have people murdered on the streets. So I

894
00:39:48,373 --> 00:39:51,613
Speaker 2: think lots of things could happen. So I think they

895
00:39:51,634 --> 00:39:54,053
Speaker 2: still round people up and arrest them if they feel

896
00:39:54,074 --> 00:39:54,764
Speaker 2: like they want to.

897
00:39:54,803 --> 00:39:56,373
Speaker 1: I don't think that stops them from doing it.

898
00:39:56,404 --> 00:40:01,393
Speaker 2: I think I think they underestimated Minnesota and Minneapolis just generally.

899
00:40:01,473 --> 00:40:03,114
Speaker 2: I think they thought Minneapolis was going to be a

900
00:40:03,154 --> 00:40:06,013
Speaker 2: soft touch. They didn't realize that the power of Minneapolis

901
00:40:06,104 --> 00:40:10,004
Speaker 2: organizing and the power of Prince Rogers Nelson lives through

902
00:40:10,024 --> 00:40:12,283
Speaker 2: that city, and that city's ready to stand up and fight.

903
00:40:12,344 --> 00:40:15,403
Speaker 2: I don't think they realized that. And I think that

904
00:40:15,564 --> 00:40:17,544
Speaker 2: they didn't realize how much the nation would pay attention.

905
00:40:17,223 --> 00:40:17,623
Speaker 1: To all this.

906
00:40:18,283 --> 00:40:20,064
Speaker 3: I agree with you. I don't think they realized that

907
00:40:20,123 --> 00:40:22,454
Speaker 3: the public sentiment would be the way that it was

908
00:40:22,774 --> 00:40:25,073
Speaker 3: or the way that it turned out or the attention that,

909
00:40:25,154 --> 00:40:27,383
Speaker 3: as you said, that I got. I don't think that they,

910
00:40:27,643 --> 00:40:31,044
Speaker 3: or maybe they did, but they certainly seem to, once

911
00:40:31,084 --> 00:40:33,704
Speaker 3: they realized it, they sort of went quiet, like, oh shit.

912
00:40:34,044 --> 00:40:34,723
Speaker 1: Yeah. You know? Yeah.

913
00:40:35,324 --> 00:40:37,903
Speaker 3: So, and I don't think that they realized that for

914
00:40:37,924 --> 00:40:40,904
Speaker 3: me to be prepared, like to have a PR person

915
00:40:40,944 --> 00:40:44,823
Speaker 3: in place with a statement, an attorney ready, you know

916
00:40:44,864 --> 00:40:46,404
Speaker 3: what I mean? And then you come out to the

917
00:40:46,424 --> 00:40:49,893
Speaker 3: cameras and then say, I'm not, I'm not doing this shit, right?

918
00:40:49,973 --> 00:40:52,194
Speaker 3: We're not doing this. And I'm not afraid. I don't

919
00:40:52,214 --> 00:40:53,863
Speaker 3: think they were ready for that. I think they were

920
00:40:53,964 --> 00:40:55,883
Speaker 3: used to dealing with people who were like, oh, my God,

921
00:40:55,944 --> 00:40:57,584
Speaker 3: or did not have a platform.

922
00:40:57,803 --> 00:40:59,854
Speaker 2: And that's, again, that's where you're– and I'm not trying

923
00:40:59,873 --> 00:41:02,393
Speaker 2: to make too much of it. Your fame, your resources,

924
00:41:02,654 --> 00:41:06,413
Speaker 2: your 30 years in the business are like, I'm not new.

925
00:41:06,634 --> 00:41:08,493
Speaker 2: You can't just scoop me up and have me go, oh, no.

926
00:41:08,513 --> 00:41:13,363
Speaker 2: You're like, I'm already lawyered up. I'm already– I don't

927
00:41:13,384 --> 00:41:15,363
Speaker 2: have to figure out who do I call. I just

928
00:41:15,384 --> 00:41:17,644
Speaker 2: call one person. They call everybody else. Yeah.

929
00:41:17,663 --> 00:41:17,883
Speaker 1: Yeah.

930
00:41:20,864 --> 00:41:22,514
Speaker 2: You didn't have to go, I don't know what to do.

931
00:41:22,674 --> 00:41:24,314
Speaker 2: You already knew what to do. And the people around

932
00:41:24,354 --> 00:41:26,093
Speaker 2: you knew what to do because they were already there

933
00:41:26,114 --> 00:41:29,913
Speaker 2: to support you. So I will say this, Don, because

934
00:41:29,933 --> 00:41:35,754
Speaker 2: this leads to this discussion. When you entered journalism back

935
00:41:35,973 --> 00:41:38,053
Speaker 2: in the early 2000s, is that what I'm talking about?

936
00:41:38,074 --> 00:41:39,574
Speaker 1: No.

937
00:41:39,783 --> 00:41:42,223
Speaker 2: No, no, I guess that's when you got to CNN.

938
00:41:42,263 --> 00:41:44,104
Speaker 3: I'm glad you think that I'm that young. I think

939
00:41:44,143 --> 00:41:46,633
Speaker 3: I started in journalism in 91 or 92.

940
00:41:46,634 --> 00:41:48,573
Speaker 1: Okay, but you got to CNN in 2004, right?

941
00:41:48,614 --> 00:41:51,753
Speaker 2: I got to CNN in 2006. 2006, okay, that's what

942
00:41:51,814 --> 00:41:54,854
Speaker 2: I'm saying. So, well, 91, even better, because you were

943
00:41:54,873 --> 00:41:58,763
Speaker 2: a child. You were a child prodigy journalist.

944
00:41:59,283 --> 00:41:59,903
Speaker 3: We'll go with that.

945
00:42:00,163 --> 00:42:04,424
Speaker 1: Yeah, journalism was very different then. Oh, yeah.

946
00:42:04,604 --> 00:42:07,044
Speaker 2: The role of the journalist was basically to act as

947
00:42:07,143 --> 00:42:10,903
Speaker 2: if they were a vessel through which news came and

948
00:42:11,004 --> 00:42:14,203
Speaker 2: to pretend as if they didn't have an opinion or...

949
00:42:14,584 --> 00:42:17,143
Speaker 2: often journalists had opinions, they acted like they weren't opinions.

950
00:42:17,203 --> 00:42:20,463
Speaker 2: But I'm saying, can you talk about what journalism was

951
00:42:20,484 --> 00:42:23,013
Speaker 2: for young people then versus what journalism is now?

952
00:42:23,574 --> 00:42:27,093
Speaker 3: Well, journalism was kind of, would you call it a

953
00:42:27,194 --> 00:42:27,914
Speaker 3: one-way street?

954
00:42:29,694 --> 00:42:33,953
Speaker 2: Also, yeah, there were three networks and PBS, basically.

955
00:42:35,254 --> 00:42:37,553
Speaker 3: So CNN had been around for like 10 years. It

956
00:42:37,594 --> 00:42:38,933
Speaker 3: was still fairly new, right?

957
00:42:38,953 --> 00:42:39,113
Speaker 1: Yeah.

958
00:42:40,303 --> 00:42:43,024
Speaker 2: It wasn't a 24-hour news cycle. I think that's important

959
00:42:43,044 --> 00:42:43,823
Speaker 2: to note.

960
00:42:43,884 --> 00:42:46,423
Speaker 3: Right. And it was a completely different thing. And then

961
00:42:46,643 --> 00:42:49,123
Speaker 3: nobody paid attention to CNN in the beginning. The cable

962
00:42:49,143 --> 00:42:50,984
Speaker 3: news were like, what is that? The broadcasts were the

963
00:42:51,004 --> 00:42:54,674
Speaker 3: big boys. So anyway, long story short, it was completely different.

964
00:42:54,683 --> 00:42:56,093
Speaker 3: And I say it was a one-way street because it

965
00:42:56,134 --> 00:43:00,033
Speaker 3: was just the journalists telling you things. And it was

966
00:43:00,074 --> 00:43:03,213
Speaker 3: hard to have any real feedback or anything like that.

967
00:43:03,254 --> 00:43:08,574
Speaker 3: And it was only three major networks, PBS and then CNN.

968
00:43:09,594 --> 00:43:11,764
Speaker 3: And then after that, Fox came along and said, oh,

969
00:43:11,794 --> 00:43:13,194
Speaker 3: wait a minute, we have to do a conservative one.

970
00:43:13,594 --> 00:43:14,433
Speaker 3: But still it was that.

971
00:43:14,453 --> 00:43:18,024
Speaker 2: And CNN wasn't really thought of as liberal at the

972
00:43:18,064 --> 00:43:19,024
Speaker 2: time in any way, right?

973
00:43:19,504 --> 00:43:24,343
Speaker 3: No, but that's what conservatives did to it. They named

974
00:43:24,384 --> 00:43:27,704
Speaker 3: it the Chicken Noodle Network or the Clinton News Network, right?

975
00:43:27,884 --> 00:43:30,883
Speaker 3: Because they wanted to define their enemy or the source

976
00:43:30,924 --> 00:43:36,013
Speaker 3: of their problem. And then all of a sudden, social

977
00:43:36,053 --> 00:43:40,403
Speaker 3: media came about. And that really changed. everything because there

978
00:43:40,444 --> 00:43:43,143
Speaker 3: were more places and we started getting more channels and

979
00:43:43,163 --> 00:43:46,674
Speaker 3: all of that and more cable news, you know, came about, but, uh,

980
00:43:46,743 --> 00:43:49,354
Speaker 3: and then, you know, it became more interactive and people

981
00:43:49,393 --> 00:43:51,274
Speaker 3: had a say in it and they said, well, I

982
00:43:51,314 --> 00:43:52,734
Speaker 3: don't want to, I don't like any of this. I

983
00:43:52,734 --> 00:43:54,734
Speaker 3: don't like you necessarily telling me what I should be,

984
00:43:55,053 --> 00:43:56,513
Speaker 3: what's important to me and what I should be paying

985
00:43:56,553 --> 00:43:59,953
Speaker 3: attention to. I'm going to tell you. And not only

986
00:43:59,993 --> 00:44:03,373
Speaker 3: am I going to tell you overtly through how I feel, but,

987
00:44:03,634 --> 00:44:05,013
Speaker 3: but what I pay attention to.

988
00:44:05,033 --> 00:44:05,533
Speaker 1: Yeah.

989
00:44:05,884 --> 00:44:08,223
Speaker 3: And what the algorithm picks up on. And that's where,

990
00:44:08,404 --> 00:44:10,064
Speaker 3: you know, and that's where we are now. That's why

991
00:44:10,104 --> 00:44:14,163
Speaker 3: we're in this whole digital social era is because people

992
00:44:14,183 --> 00:44:16,604
Speaker 3: were tired of people just telling them what they should

993
00:44:16,763 --> 00:44:19,904
Speaker 3: think is important. And they also realize like, this is

994
00:44:19,924 --> 00:44:23,633
Speaker 3: some bullshit. You know, it's all, as they say, it's

995
00:44:23,683 --> 00:44:25,513
Speaker 3: all rigged. I wouldn't say it's all rigged, but it's

996
00:44:25,594 --> 00:44:27,354
Speaker 3: heavily corporate influence.

997
00:44:27,993 --> 00:44:29,573
Speaker 2: Well, and like you said, that there was a point

998
00:44:29,594 --> 00:44:32,393
Speaker 2: at which the, and please speak on this, that the

999
00:44:32,533 --> 00:44:36,024
Speaker 2: news department wasn't expected to make money That they were

1000
00:44:36,044 --> 00:44:41,604
Speaker 2: expected just to do the news, and then they got

1001
00:44:41,683 --> 00:44:44,464
Speaker 2: lumped in under the entertainment division. And when you have

1002
00:44:44,504 --> 00:44:46,664
Speaker 2: social media people saying, this is what I want to hear,

1003
00:44:47,104 --> 00:44:49,324
Speaker 2: and you have a news division that wants to make money,

1004
00:44:49,643 --> 00:44:52,303
Speaker 2: that creates a huge conflict of interest with the news.

1005
00:44:53,234 --> 00:44:56,714
Speaker 3: Yeah, and people engaging in the news. So I think

1006
00:44:56,774 --> 00:44:59,013
Speaker 3: young people are very savvy. Now, I think they're very

1007
00:44:59,053 --> 00:45:03,093
Speaker 3: savvy about social media and things that they are interested in. Um,

1008
00:45:03,243 --> 00:45:05,524
Speaker 3: I mean, look at what's happening now with, with Gaza

1009
00:45:05,584 --> 00:45:08,783
Speaker 3: and Israel, like people are becoming more aware and they're

1010
00:45:08,824 --> 00:45:12,883
Speaker 3: questioning things a lot more. However, what's problematic for me

1011
00:45:13,024 --> 00:45:14,123
Speaker 3: is media literacy.

1012
00:45:14,183 --> 00:45:14,423
Speaker 1: Yes.

1013
00:45:14,803 --> 00:45:17,564
Speaker 3: That people don't know what's real. And many of the

1014
00:45:17,604 --> 00:45:19,683
Speaker 3: folks who are out here delivering the news or what

1015
00:45:19,703 --> 00:45:22,123
Speaker 3: they think is a news have never gone through a

1016
00:45:22,564 --> 00:45:27,203
Speaker 3: rigorous sort of journalism, um, structure where there are standards

1017
00:45:27,243 --> 00:45:30,934
Speaker 3: and practices and attorneys looking at every single thing. And, um,

1018
00:45:31,854 --> 00:45:33,873
Speaker 3: so they don't know what's real and what's not. And

1019
00:45:33,913 --> 00:45:36,734
Speaker 3: then they just, you know, people put out rumors. And

1020
00:45:36,794 --> 00:45:39,854
Speaker 3: so that's the thing that concerns me the most. I

1021
00:45:39,873 --> 00:45:42,993
Speaker 3: wish that we could somehow teach media literacy that it

1022
00:45:43,033 --> 00:45:46,383
Speaker 3: was a required class in school, like we used to

1023
00:45:46,424 --> 00:45:47,524
Speaker 3: take civics, you know?

1024
00:45:47,544 --> 00:45:50,283
Speaker 2: I think you're right. Do you know, I know you

1025
00:45:50,303 --> 00:45:53,124
Speaker 2: talked to Francesca Ramsey recently. She's putting on a media

1026
00:45:53,143 --> 00:45:56,363
Speaker 2: literacy course on her YouTube. Did you see recently she

1027
00:45:56,384 --> 00:45:58,743
Speaker 2: put out a video addressing, directed to you?

1028
00:45:59,674 --> 00:46:02,194
Speaker 3: No, I heard about it. I heard that she put

1029
00:46:02,214 --> 00:46:06,154
Speaker 3: out a video directed to me about not appearing on

1030
00:46:06,194 --> 00:46:11,713
Speaker 3: the show or that I somehow was making excuses for

1031
00:46:11,794 --> 00:46:12,434
Speaker 3: Chris Brown.

1032
00:46:12,453 --> 00:46:15,053
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was about the Chris Brown thing. But you

1033
00:46:15,074 --> 00:46:15,493
Speaker 1: know what?

1034
00:46:16,274 --> 00:46:18,844
Speaker 3: I respect her, but you can find just as many people,

1035
00:46:18,904 --> 00:46:23,743
Speaker 3: if not more, saying, shut up about Chris Brown. And

1036
00:46:23,783 --> 00:46:26,343
Speaker 3: I did not make excuses for him. I said, it's complicated.

1037
00:46:26,424 --> 00:46:30,373
Speaker 3: And my question was, though, out of that is... when

1038
00:46:30,674 --> 00:46:34,113
Speaker 3: is it okay for people to make amends? And I'm

1039
00:46:34,154 --> 00:46:36,474
Speaker 3: not judging on when people should do that, but sometimes

1040
00:46:36,493 --> 00:46:38,354
Speaker 3: just by asking the question, people think that you are

1041
00:46:38,873 --> 00:46:43,073
Speaker 3: somehow making excuses for or letting people off the hook.

1042
00:46:43,134 --> 00:46:45,484
Speaker 3: I think it's a very legitimate question. And then you

1043
00:46:45,524 --> 00:46:49,364
Speaker 3: may say, never or not right now with Chris Brown

1044
00:46:49,404 --> 00:46:53,944
Speaker 3: because he doesn't appear to have any remorse for what

1045
00:46:53,964 --> 00:46:57,714
Speaker 3: he's done. Or you can say, he was 19 years

1046
00:46:57,754 --> 00:46:59,373
Speaker 3: old when this happened, he's still young or whatever, but

1047
00:46:59,393 --> 00:47:02,633
Speaker 3: that wasn't me. I made a very clear case that

1048
00:47:02,654 --> 00:47:05,584
Speaker 3: I'm not judging it, I'm just saying, this is what

1049
00:47:05,623 --> 00:47:09,004
Speaker 3: we should contemplate. How do you, and can you separate

1050
00:47:09,064 --> 00:47:10,383
Speaker 3: the artist from the art?

1051
00:47:11,424 --> 00:47:14,503
Speaker 2: Well, I think that's the, like, as I watch your piece,

1052
00:47:14,584 --> 00:47:15,944
Speaker 2: and I watch her piece, and I've watched lots of

1053
00:47:15,964 --> 00:47:20,014
Speaker 2: people talk about it, and I think the, there's, it's certainly,

1054
00:47:20,053 --> 00:47:22,493
Speaker 2: it's a very naughty, and I mean that, is it

1055
00:47:22,634 --> 00:47:23,734
Speaker 2: filled with knots issue.

1056
00:47:23,794 --> 00:47:25,094
Speaker 1: There's a lot of different pieces.

1057
00:47:25,134 --> 00:47:29,444
Speaker 2: There's the, jasmine crockett piece about like it is if

1058
00:47:29,464 --> 00:47:31,823
Speaker 2: you criticize a black woman on the internet patricia o'neill

1059
00:47:31,844 --> 00:47:33,374
Speaker 2: had a joke years ago when he was still alive

1060
00:47:33,433 --> 00:47:36,774
Speaker 2: about obama and he basically said he said white people

1061
00:47:37,114 --> 00:47:40,274
Speaker 2: black people might be okay to might start criticizing obama

1062
00:47:40,714 --> 00:47:42,393
Speaker 2: but we know that if we do we're going to

1063
00:47:42,413 --> 00:47:45,343
Speaker 2: be surrounded by racist suddenly white racist people who are

1064
00:47:45,364 --> 00:47:48,203
Speaker 2: like yeah andy's who are going to say who so

1065
00:47:48,223 --> 00:47:50,223
Speaker 2: therefore our criticisms will be surrounded by a bunch of

1066
00:47:50,243 --> 00:47:53,504
Speaker 2: racist bullshit so we are afraid to criticize obama in

1067
00:47:53,564 --> 00:47:56,153
Speaker 2: public because We don't want to be surrounded by white

1068
00:47:56,214 --> 00:47:58,724
Speaker 2: racists who are adding a bunch of racism to it.

1069
00:47:59,013 --> 00:48:00,614
Speaker 2: And I think it's that way with Jasmine Crockett.

1070
00:48:00,634 --> 00:48:01,094
Speaker 1: I think.

1071
00:48:02,444 --> 00:48:04,383
Speaker 2: Some people want to say, hey, Jasmine Crockett, we don't

1072
00:48:04,444 --> 00:48:06,803
Speaker 2: think that was a smart move politically for you to

1073
00:48:06,844 --> 00:48:09,783
Speaker 2: be on stage with Chris Brown, but I'm not going

1074
00:48:09,803 --> 00:48:12,084
Speaker 2: to indict your black womanhood at the same time. Whereas

1075
00:48:12,123 --> 00:48:14,244
Speaker 2: some people are like, ooh, it's an opportunity to indict

1076
00:48:14,283 --> 00:48:18,044
Speaker 2: her black womanhood because black women take the most shit

1077
00:48:18,084 --> 00:48:18,564
Speaker 2: on the internet.

1078
00:48:19,104 --> 00:48:21,584
Speaker 3: Come on, let me say this. You are 100% right.

1079
00:48:22,544 --> 00:48:26,794
Speaker 3: You cannot win with those issues. And look, I take

1080
00:48:26,834 --> 00:48:29,754
Speaker 3: criticism well. And when I think that it's warranted, I

1081
00:48:29,794 --> 00:48:32,233
Speaker 3: will respond to it. But most of the time I don't.

1082
00:48:32,654 --> 00:48:34,553
Speaker 3: Because if you look on the internet, and if you

1083
00:48:34,594 --> 00:48:36,834
Speaker 3: just Google Don Lemon, Chris Brown, oh my gosh, Don

1084
00:48:36,854 --> 00:48:39,214
Speaker 3: Lemon made excuses for Chris Brown. He let him off

1085
00:48:39,254 --> 00:48:40,933
Speaker 3: the hook. Oh my God, he was too, leave the

1086
00:48:40,953 --> 00:48:44,334
Speaker 3: black man alone, right? And especially Jasmine Crockett. There are

1087
00:48:44,354 --> 00:48:47,264
Speaker 3: people like, oh, Don Lemon is not Jasmine Crockett's friend anymore.

1088
00:48:47,283 --> 00:48:49,664
Speaker 3: And then others are like, oh my God, he's taking

1089
00:48:49,723 --> 00:48:52,264
Speaker 3: up for Jasmine Crockett. And it's like, we have to

1090
00:48:52,303 --> 00:48:54,564
Speaker 3: be able to, especially as black journalists, I've gone through

1091
00:48:54,584 --> 00:48:57,783
Speaker 3: this my entire career. We have to be given, we

1092
00:48:57,824 --> 00:49:01,663
Speaker 3: should be given all of the same rights and privileges

1093
00:49:02,824 --> 00:49:06,263
Speaker 3: that go along with any other journalist of any ethnicity.

1094
00:49:07,384 --> 00:49:09,263
Speaker 3: If there's a story about Chris Brown, I have to

1095
00:49:09,303 --> 00:49:10,944
Speaker 3: cover it. There's a story about Jasmine Crockett, I have

1096
00:49:10,964 --> 00:49:12,883
Speaker 3: to cover it. Whether she's a black woman or white

1097
00:49:12,924 --> 00:49:16,504
Speaker 3: woman or whatever. Jasmine Crockett is a public figure. I

1098
00:49:16,564 --> 00:49:18,564
Speaker 3: love Jasmine Crockett as a person. I think she's great.

1099
00:49:19,154 --> 00:49:22,663
Speaker 3: But she's a public figure. Also, she is a politician.

1100
00:49:23,203 --> 00:49:26,143
Speaker 3: And politicians are not beyond reproach. They should expect to

1101
00:49:26,183 --> 00:49:29,734
Speaker 3: be criticized. That's what they do. That's part of what

1102
00:49:29,774 --> 00:49:32,113
Speaker 3: they do. So Jasmine Crockett, no matter how much she

1103
00:49:32,154 --> 00:49:35,314
Speaker 3: thinks that, you know, it's fair or unfair, that's what

1104
00:49:35,354 --> 00:49:38,803
Speaker 3: journalists do. They analyze and they criticize the people who

1105
00:49:38,844 --> 00:49:40,643
Speaker 3: are in power and we hold those people to account.

1106
00:49:40,683 --> 00:49:43,263
Speaker 3: And there were many black women and just people in

1107
00:49:43,283 --> 00:49:46,884
Speaker 3: general who thought that her going on stage was a

1108
00:49:46,964 --> 00:49:50,454
Speaker 3: huge misstep. And then there are others who are like, Oh,

1109
00:49:50,574 --> 00:49:53,093
Speaker 3: leave her alone. It was great. I don't care. But

1110
00:49:53,473 --> 00:49:54,893
Speaker 3: I don't think you can win with those things. But

1111
00:49:54,913 --> 00:49:57,113
Speaker 3: I think we have to start realizing we have to

1112
00:49:57,154 --> 00:49:59,674
Speaker 3: be able to criticize people no matter what their ethnicity is,

1113
00:50:00,243 --> 00:50:02,903
Speaker 3: especially if we're black. Give me the same privileges that

1114
00:50:02,924 --> 00:50:07,504
Speaker 3: you give, I'm just saying, Anderson or anyone to be

1115
00:50:07,524 --> 00:50:09,724
Speaker 3: able to cover these issues without saying you're selling out

1116
00:50:09,743 --> 00:50:12,714
Speaker 3: the black people. That's a bunch of bullshit.

1117
00:50:31,104 --> 00:50:32,143
Speaker 1: I guess this is my question.

1118
00:50:32,524 --> 00:50:35,623
Speaker 2: Like, because specifically with the Chris Brown thing, like, and

1119
00:50:35,663 --> 00:50:37,303
Speaker 2: certainly I've talked a lot about separating the art from

1120
00:50:37,344 --> 00:50:40,324
Speaker 2: the artist in my work, so I understand what that means.

1121
00:50:41,123 --> 00:50:43,243
Speaker 2: And I understand that people struggle with that and understand

1122
00:50:43,263 --> 00:50:45,614
Speaker 2: that people come down on all sides. But the thing

1123
00:50:45,634 --> 00:50:48,073
Speaker 2: with Chris Brown, it seems to me, is that he's never,

1124
00:50:48,094 --> 00:50:51,734
Speaker 2: in my reckoning, I mean, first of all, his criminal

1125
00:50:51,774 --> 00:50:54,084
Speaker 2: record goes through, like, recently in England.

1126
00:50:54,123 --> 00:50:55,323
Speaker 3: He's still out there doing the most.

1127
00:50:55,524 --> 00:50:57,153
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's still, so it's not like we can go,

1128
00:50:57,174 --> 00:51:00,613
Speaker 2: I think sometimes people, and you didn't do this, but say, oh,

1129
00:51:00,654 --> 00:51:02,294
Speaker 2: he did that thing with Rihanna a long time ago,

1130
00:51:02,373 --> 00:51:04,713
Speaker 2: but there's a pretty consistent.

1131
00:51:05,654 --> 00:51:08,034
Speaker 1: Record of doing the most.

1132
00:51:08,053 --> 00:51:10,053
Speaker 3: I totally understand that, and I said that.

1133
00:51:10,074 --> 00:51:12,173
Speaker 2: And he's never really asked for forgiveness. He doesn't seem

1134
00:51:12,194 --> 00:51:14,283
Speaker 2: to be interested in atoning.

1135
00:51:14,384 --> 00:51:16,504
Speaker 1: He doesn't care. He doesn't care.

1136
00:51:16,544 --> 00:51:18,343
Speaker 3: I don't know if he cares about that. Maybe he doesn't, but.

1137
00:51:18,364 --> 00:51:20,963
Speaker 2: Because even this, he said, take the award back.

1138
00:51:20,984 --> 00:51:22,783
Speaker 1: I don't even want it. That's where I was going. Yeah.

1139
00:51:23,194 --> 00:51:26,513
Speaker 2: So I guess why defend him in any way? I

1140
00:51:26,553 --> 00:51:28,354
Speaker 2: guess that's my question because he doesn't seem like he

1141
00:51:28,373 --> 00:51:28,714
Speaker 2: wants you to.

1142
00:51:28,714 --> 00:51:30,864
Speaker 3: I'm not defending him. I'm trying to explain. There's a

1143
00:51:30,924 --> 00:51:34,064
Speaker 3: nuance here that because of what people are saying, all

1144
00:51:34,084 --> 00:51:37,284
Speaker 3: of the criticism, that people have certain, they have strong

1145
00:51:37,384 --> 00:51:40,314
Speaker 3: opinions about Chris Brown. There are people who think that

1146
00:51:40,694 --> 00:51:43,254
Speaker 3: he's not getting a fair shake. Whether those people are

1147
00:51:43,294 --> 00:51:45,453
Speaker 3: right or not, I'm not going to judge them. I

1148
00:51:45,493 --> 00:51:47,794
Speaker 3: don't happen to think that way. But then there are

1149
00:51:47,814 --> 00:51:49,774
Speaker 3: people who are like, hey, look, this guy is still

1150
00:51:49,794 --> 00:51:50,113
Speaker 3: doing it.

1151
00:51:50,154 --> 00:51:51,884
Speaker 1: And he is still doing it. So it's not a

1152
00:51:51,944 --> 00:51:52,993
Speaker 1: defense of Chris Brown.

1153
00:51:53,324 --> 00:51:56,163
Speaker 3: It's a nuanced story of me giving the story and

1154
00:51:56,183 --> 00:51:59,303
Speaker 3: telling people what's out there. And because all of that

1155
00:51:59,364 --> 00:52:01,683
Speaker 3: is real. And there are people who actually agree with

1156
00:52:01,723 --> 00:52:02,844
Speaker 3: what Jasmine Crockett did.

1157
00:52:02,864 --> 00:52:03,403
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.

1158
00:52:03,944 --> 00:52:07,243
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's people. I think this is what the thing

1159
00:52:07,263 --> 00:52:09,484
Speaker 2: that I've learned about myself. And I think this is

1160
00:52:09,524 --> 00:52:12,803
Speaker 2: also sort of the you have been in journalism– back

1161
00:52:12,844 --> 00:52:15,383
Speaker 2: when journalists were like, these are just what happened. I'm

1162
00:52:15,404 --> 00:52:18,834
Speaker 2: just delivering the information. And now you're like, you know,

1163
00:52:18,854 --> 00:52:20,873
Speaker 2: I'm talking about like in the nineties when journalists were

1164
00:52:20,913 --> 00:52:21,993
Speaker 2: really not opinionators.

1165
00:52:23,254 --> 00:52:23,413
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1166
00:52:23,513 --> 00:52:25,254
Speaker 1: And then the night you went on TV and said,

1167
00:52:25,774 --> 00:52:26,994
Speaker 1: Donald Trump is a racist.

1168
00:52:29,094 --> 00:52:31,174
Speaker 3: That wasn't an opinion. I gave facts.

1169
00:52:31,584 --> 00:52:31,803
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1170
00:52:31,884 --> 00:52:34,183
Speaker 2: But it's also not the way, probably not the way

1171
00:52:34,203 --> 00:52:36,064
Speaker 2: you were taught to do journalism back when you learned

1172
00:52:36,084 --> 00:52:38,223
Speaker 2: journalism back in the nineties is all. And I'm not

1173
00:52:38,303 --> 00:52:40,403
Speaker 2: disagreeing with you. I believe Donald Trump's a racist. I'm

1174
00:52:40,444 --> 00:52:42,203
Speaker 2: on the record for that. That was the night we went, oh,

1175
00:52:42,243 --> 00:52:45,463
Speaker 2: Don Lemon is a member of the resistance. I guess

1176
00:52:45,544 --> 00:52:48,004
Speaker 2: is what happened that night. And so I think people

1177
00:52:48,044 --> 00:52:51,534
Speaker 2: struggle with you sometimes, and you are who you are,

1178
00:52:51,763 --> 00:52:53,573
Speaker 2: to go sometimes it feels like he's a member of

1179
00:52:53,594 --> 00:52:56,734
Speaker 2: the resistance, and sometimes he's being the journalist from old

1180
00:52:56,754 --> 00:52:58,314
Speaker 2: school journalism, like this.

1181
00:52:58,174 --> 00:53:00,374
Speaker 1: Happened and this happened and this happened and this happened.

1182
00:53:01,053 --> 00:53:03,653
Speaker 3: And we're like– I don't feel that I was that

1183
00:53:03,694 --> 00:53:05,774
Speaker 3: way about this story, and I don't feel like I'm

1184
00:53:05,814 --> 00:53:07,873
Speaker 3: that way now about the Chris Brown story. First of all,

1185
00:53:07,893 --> 00:53:10,754
Speaker 3: the story wasn't really about Chris Brown. The story was

1186
00:53:10,794 --> 00:53:14,534
Speaker 3: about Jasmine Crockett. And so people are focusing on Chris Brown.

1187
00:53:15,013 --> 00:53:17,153
Speaker 3: And Chris Brown told you, he was quite honest. He goes,

1188
00:53:17,294 --> 00:53:20,734
Speaker 3: I did not ask for this. And so if we're

1189
00:53:20,774 --> 00:53:23,283
Speaker 3: doing a story that is completely focused on Chris Brown,

1190
00:53:23,364 --> 00:53:26,064
Speaker 3: then I may have a different opinion about, look, Chris

1191
00:53:26,084 --> 00:53:28,183
Speaker 3: Brown has done this, whatever. But the story was about

1192
00:53:28,223 --> 00:53:31,524
Speaker 3: Jasmine Crockett. And all of the things that we, every

1193
00:53:31,564 --> 00:53:33,263
Speaker 3: thumbnail that we put up, every story that we did,

1194
00:53:33,283 --> 00:53:36,964
Speaker 3: it was centered on, hey, did Jasmine Crockett make a misstep?

1195
00:53:37,743 --> 00:53:38,783
Speaker 3: Was this the right thing to do?

1196
00:53:38,944 --> 00:53:39,354
Speaker 1: Come on.

1197
00:53:39,763 --> 00:53:42,324
Speaker 3: Jasmine, Chris Brown, really? And then we gave Chris Brown's history.

1198
00:53:43,663 --> 00:53:45,283
Speaker 3: And then we went out and talked to people. And

1199
00:53:45,303 --> 00:53:48,323
Speaker 3: the people said, I think it's okay. He's getting it

1200
00:53:48,344 --> 00:53:50,114
Speaker 3: for the music. I don't care about the other bullshit.

1201
00:53:50,493 --> 00:53:52,754
Speaker 3: Almost to a person. There was maybe one or two

1202
00:53:52,794 --> 00:53:55,294
Speaker 3: people who were like, eh. They were like, it's... When

1203
00:53:55,314 --> 00:53:58,354
Speaker 3: you say people, you mean people who were... On the street.

1204
00:53:58,473 --> 00:54:01,734
Speaker 3: Man on the street people. Man on the street and

1205
00:54:01,913 --> 00:54:04,233
Speaker 3: in the comments section. I mean, most people were like,

1206
00:54:04,433 --> 00:54:08,044
Speaker 3: they were pro-Chris Brown. And so you can't... Should I

1207
00:54:08,104 --> 00:54:08,823
Speaker 3: not report that?

1208
00:54:09,553 --> 00:54:10,714
Speaker 2: No, no, I'm not telling you not to do that.

1209
00:54:10,794 --> 00:54:13,673
Speaker 2: I think people, here's what I see, and this is my.

1210
00:54:13,714 --> 00:54:16,854
Speaker 3: You wanted me to drag a black man, come on.

1211
00:54:16,913 --> 00:54:20,314
Speaker 1: I actually don't. I really don't. I think this is

1212
00:54:20,334 --> 00:54:22,153
Speaker 1: the most I've ever said Chris Brown's name in my life,

1213
00:54:22,174 --> 00:54:22,814
Speaker 1: let me be clear.

1214
00:54:23,453 --> 00:54:25,093
Speaker 3: Can I tell you that Chris Brown is not on

1215
00:54:25,134 --> 00:54:28,054
Speaker 3: my radar? I don't really know Chris Brown's music. I mean,

1216
00:54:28,094 --> 00:54:30,324
Speaker 3: I think he's a little young for me. I'm older.

1217
00:54:30,783 --> 00:54:32,183
Speaker 3: I'm a man of a certain age, so he's not

1218
00:54:32,223 --> 00:54:34,783
Speaker 3: really on my radar, again. So I don't know that

1219
00:54:34,844 --> 00:54:36,503
Speaker 3: much about him except for the Rihanna thing.

1220
00:54:36,703 --> 00:54:36,883
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1221
00:54:37,393 --> 00:54:39,614
Speaker 2: Well, I would say this, I'm talking about, forget all,

1222
00:54:39,754 --> 00:54:42,913
Speaker 2: I certainly think that obviously there's a reason to say, Hey,

1223
00:54:42,993 --> 00:54:45,354
Speaker 2: Jasmine Crockett, that might not have been the most politically

1224
00:54:45,413 --> 00:54:48,344
Speaker 2: astute thing to do being on stage with Chris Brown.

1225
00:54:48,364 --> 00:54:50,264
Speaker 2: I'm not talking about how you're dressed. I'm not talking

1226
00:54:50,283 --> 00:54:52,363
Speaker 2: about that. You even like Chris Brown's music. I'm talking

1227
00:54:52,384 --> 00:54:57,043
Speaker 2: about as a politician who I think has ideas of bigger, uh,

1228
00:54:57,143 --> 00:54:59,843
Speaker 2: bigger public office or, or bigger impact, whatever you're going

1229
00:54:59,864 --> 00:55:01,843
Speaker 2: to do. That's not the most politically astute thing to do,

1230
00:55:02,283 --> 00:55:03,944
Speaker 2: but I certainly, I don't, I didn't tweet about it.

1231
00:55:03,964 --> 00:55:04,544
Speaker 1: I just went, huh?

1232
00:55:05,324 --> 00:55:08,783
Speaker 2: Uh, I'm talking about my friend Don Lemon where I'm like,

1233
00:55:09,303 --> 00:55:12,873
Speaker 2: I see you sometimes. I'm like, there's a sense of like,

1234
00:55:13,413 --> 00:55:21,323
Speaker 2: Don likes the trouble. Don likes like wading into it

1235
00:55:21,404 --> 00:55:23,884
Speaker 2: and just sort of like being a little bit.

1236
00:55:26,384 --> 00:55:29,383
Speaker 1: Poking everybody's soft spot. Huh? Yeah.

1237
00:55:29,404 --> 00:55:30,564
Speaker 3: You think I'm a provocateur?

1238
00:55:30,604 --> 00:55:32,123
Speaker 1: I don't think you're. I don't think that's. I'm a

1239
00:55:32,183 --> 00:55:32,824
Speaker 1: shit stirrer.

1240
00:55:32,884 --> 00:55:33,723
Speaker 3: Is that what you're saying?

1241
00:55:33,783 --> 00:55:34,014
Speaker 1: I don't.

1242
00:55:34,344 --> 00:55:35,843
Speaker 2: I don't think you mind getting a little shit on you.

1243
00:55:35,864 --> 00:55:37,903
Speaker 2: I don't think you're doing it to stir the shit.

1244
00:55:38,104 --> 00:55:41,283
Speaker 2: But I don't think you feel sensitive about getting shit

1245
00:55:41,384 --> 00:55:41,643
Speaker 2: on you.

1246
00:55:42,404 --> 00:55:44,674
Speaker 3: No. That's why I've just– I will always, if I

1247
00:55:44,893 --> 00:55:47,354
Speaker 3: explain something or I'll tell you how I feel and

1248
00:55:47,373 --> 00:55:48,893
Speaker 3: then if I'm ready to move on, I'm ready to

1249
00:55:48,913 --> 00:55:50,413
Speaker 3: move on. There are a lot of things that people

1250
00:55:50,433 --> 00:55:52,473
Speaker 3: are in the comment section about. That's what I– this is–

1251
00:55:52,553 --> 00:55:54,013
Speaker 3: let me just tell you this. People are in the

1252
00:55:54,053 --> 00:55:56,163
Speaker 3: comment section about a lot of things that don't mean

1253
00:55:56,283 --> 00:55:57,604
Speaker 3: anything that have.

1254
00:55:58,123 --> 00:55:59,843
Speaker 1: Oh my God, how could you have this person on

1255
00:55:59,884 --> 00:56:00,884
Speaker 1: your show?

1256
00:56:01,203 --> 00:56:03,984
Speaker 3: She talks shit about blah, blah, blah. I'm like, I.

1257
00:56:04,263 --> 00:56:05,604
Speaker 1: Don't even know what that is.

1258
00:56:05,623 --> 00:56:06,904
Speaker 3: And I think we should get out of the comment

1259
00:56:06,924 --> 00:56:11,584
Speaker 3: section more often because we get bogged down in bullshit.

1260
00:56:12,683 --> 00:56:15,794
Speaker 3: But no, I'm not. I'm open. I think that's what

1261
00:56:15,834 --> 00:56:18,993
Speaker 3: journalists should be, open to. So sometimes I just sit there.

1262
00:56:19,074 --> 00:56:20,953
Speaker 3: Sometimes I do. I just sit there and listen because

1263
00:56:20,993 --> 00:56:23,734
Speaker 3: I think it's important for the people to be heard

1264
00:56:23,993 --> 00:56:25,993
Speaker 3: and for you to hear all sides. And then maybe

1265
00:56:26,013 --> 00:56:27,453
Speaker 3: I'll come back in a little bit and say how

1266
00:56:27,493 --> 00:56:29,633
Speaker 3: I feel about Maybe I won't. I don't always have

1267
00:56:29,654 --> 00:56:30,873
Speaker 3: to do that. I don't always have to be a

1268
00:56:31,053 --> 00:56:35,484
Speaker 3: one-trick pony. So I don't mind stepping in shit. I

1269
00:56:35,484 --> 00:56:39,084
Speaker 3: don't mind taking chances. I don't mind taking risks. I

1270
00:56:39,123 --> 00:56:46,303
Speaker 3: wrote something I thought was very tough about Macklemore and

1271
00:56:46,824 --> 00:56:50,834
Speaker 3: Israel and Ed Sheeran and people that have strong opinions.

1272
00:56:50,854 --> 00:56:53,654
Speaker 3: It's on my sub stack. And I said to myself,

1273
00:56:54,314 --> 00:56:56,433
Speaker 3: should I make this comparison? There was a certain thing

1274
00:56:56,473 --> 00:56:58,174
Speaker 3: I wanted to make a comparison about the, and it

1275
00:56:58,214 --> 00:57:02,453
Speaker 3: was the comparison to, to, uh, sort of overreact to everything,

1276
00:57:02,533 --> 00:57:05,274
Speaker 3: to put as much firepower behind everything as you can.

1277
00:57:05,314 --> 00:57:08,173
Speaker 3: And you think that that's going to, um, that that's

1278
00:57:08,223 --> 00:57:09,474
Speaker 3: going to fix the problem.

1279
00:57:09,654 --> 00:57:09,864
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1280
00:57:10,044 --> 00:57:12,423
Speaker 3: And so, and I said, it was very similar as,

1281
00:57:12,824 --> 00:57:15,444
Speaker 3: you know, what happened on October 7th, that it was,

1282
00:57:15,683 --> 00:57:17,644
Speaker 3: it is, of course you can defend yourself, but it

1283
00:57:17,684 --> 00:57:20,363
Speaker 3: has been an overreaction. It's just like, let's obliterate the

1284
00:57:20,404 --> 00:57:24,093
Speaker 3: entire thing. And, Let's not use precision weaponry when we're

1285
00:57:24,134 --> 00:57:27,194
Speaker 3: in a time that you can use precision weaponry, where

1286
00:57:27,234 --> 00:57:30,273
Speaker 3: you can have beepers that go off and target people

1287
00:57:30,314 --> 00:57:32,363
Speaker 3: and then blow them up, your enemy. So let's not

1288
00:57:32,384 --> 00:57:34,843
Speaker 3: pretend that you have to carpet bomb everybody in this

1289
00:57:34,944 --> 00:57:40,064
Speaker 3: particular moment. And the same thing with a similar, there

1290
00:57:40,084 --> 00:57:46,994
Speaker 3: was a similar inclination with when Macklemore donated a million dollars. Yeah.

1291
00:57:47,074 --> 00:57:48,633
Speaker 3: And I think before he could get it out, they're like,

1292
00:57:48,654 --> 00:57:52,334
Speaker 3: let's donate $ 2 million. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To overshadow that.

1293
00:57:52,994 --> 00:57:55,494
Speaker 3: It's like a thing that, oh, this will solve the

1294
00:57:55,534 --> 00:57:58,334
Speaker 3: problem if we just put more firepower in it.

1295
00:57:58,484 --> 00:58:00,224
Speaker 1: It's a battle of press releases.

1296
00:58:01,084 --> 00:58:03,863
Speaker 3: It is, but I thought it was a controversial thing

1297
00:58:03,904 --> 00:58:07,604
Speaker 3: to say as I was writing it. And I said, obviously,

1298
00:58:07,664 --> 00:58:12,844
Speaker 3: October 7th, there's no... The proportionality is just not there.

1299
00:58:12,904 --> 00:58:15,854
Speaker 3: I mean, that was awful. It's bigger than that. But

1300
00:58:15,974 --> 00:58:21,724
Speaker 3: the inclination to just you know, barrage and bombard people

1301
00:58:21,884 --> 00:58:26,204
Speaker 3: and is there, and it's the wrong inclination, I believe,

1302
00:58:26,454 --> 00:58:27,794
Speaker 3: for especially the time that we're in.

1303
00:58:27,814 --> 00:58:29,994
Speaker 2: I just want to be clear, what were you nervous,

1304
00:58:30,014 --> 00:58:32,414
Speaker 2: not nervous, but what did you think people might not.

1305
00:58:32,434 --> 00:58:36,414
Speaker 3: That people would discount everything that I wrote and say, well,

1306
00:58:36,454 --> 00:58:38,423
Speaker 3: how can you compare these two things because they're not

1307
00:58:38,474 --> 00:58:40,964
Speaker 3: the same? And I'm like, I know that, but the

1308
00:58:41,004 --> 00:58:45,684
Speaker 3: inclination is the same. Not that those two things are

1309
00:58:45,704 --> 00:58:47,264
Speaker 3: the same, it's the inclination and not the thing.

1310
00:58:47,324 --> 00:58:49,484
Speaker 1: And just to be clear, you were comparing....

1311
00:58:49,984 --> 00:58:56,224
Speaker 3: I was comparing Macklemore, them giving more money. The battle

1312
00:58:56,264 --> 00:58:59,244
Speaker 3: of how much money. Yeah, I'm giving two million, whatever,

1313
00:58:59,304 --> 00:59:01,784
Speaker 3: to that. So that's it. But the other things that

1314
00:59:01,824 --> 00:59:04,164
Speaker 3: I said also was, I don't want to get bogged

1315
00:59:04,184 --> 00:59:07,264
Speaker 3: down in this, but that it is, as a Christian,

1316
00:59:09,454 --> 00:59:14,374
Speaker 3: I'm still a bit concerned when people look at religious

1317
00:59:14,434 --> 00:59:17,744
Speaker 3: scripture as law. or as they call it, divine law.

1318
00:59:17,804 --> 00:59:26,204
Speaker 3: Because any Bible or any sort of religious doctrine or

1319
00:59:26,264 --> 00:59:31,274
Speaker 3: book is really about parables, allegory, and mythology. It's not

1320
00:59:31,394 --> 00:59:34,694
Speaker 3: necessarily all fact. And many of it's just about stories.

1321
00:59:35,494 --> 00:59:38,394
Speaker 1: And a lot of it was metaphor. It wasn't not

1322
00:59:38,454 --> 00:59:38,994
Speaker 1: meant to be.

1323
00:59:39,014 --> 00:59:39,173
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1324
00:59:40,024 --> 00:59:41,593
Speaker 3: Yeah, and a lot of it was interpreted by a

1325
00:59:41,594 --> 00:59:43,454
Speaker 3: whole lot of people coming down the line. And so

1326
00:59:43,494 --> 00:59:46,494
Speaker 3: we don't know what is what. And we end up,

1327
00:59:46,534 --> 00:59:50,254
Speaker 3: because of religion, starting a lot of wars and killing

1328
00:59:50,294 --> 00:59:53,454
Speaker 3: a lot of people. And so I think that people

1329
00:59:53,474 --> 00:59:59,133
Speaker 3: should realize that these things are not law. And I

1330
00:59:59,194 --> 01:00:01,093
Speaker 3: do think in this moment, a lot of people should

1331
01:00:01,194 --> 01:00:04,754
Speaker 3: do some self-reflection. All the things that we were taught

1332
01:00:04,974 --> 01:00:06,954
Speaker 3: as children or all the things we thought we knew

1333
01:00:07,014 --> 01:00:09,773
Speaker 3: back in the day turn out. not to be true

1334
01:00:09,914 --> 01:00:11,934
Speaker 3: and people evolve and things evolve. And I think people

1335
01:00:11,974 --> 01:00:13,934
Speaker 3: have evolved when it, uh, as it relates to this

1336
01:00:13,994 --> 01:00:17,664
Speaker 3: issue of, of Gaza and quite frankly, how much support

1337
01:00:17,684 --> 01:00:21,064
Speaker 3: we have for Israel. That's what, yeah, that's what's out

1338
01:00:21,084 --> 01:00:21,923
Speaker 3: in the zeitgeist now.

1339
01:00:22,244 --> 01:00:26,504
Speaker 2: Well, can I, where do you come down on calling

1340
01:00:26,524 --> 01:00:27,784
Speaker 2: it a genocide as a journalist?

1341
01:00:28,794 --> 01:00:30,733
Speaker 3: I think, I think we get bogged down into that

1342
01:00:30,914 --> 01:00:32,734
Speaker 3: in that I look, I think it's important, important to

1343
01:00:32,774 --> 01:00:37,144
Speaker 3: call a thing, a thing, but, um, you know, getting,

1344
01:00:37,364 --> 01:00:44,684
Speaker 3: getting stuck on that word stops real progress. And, um, and,

1345
01:00:44,824 --> 01:00:46,834
Speaker 3: and I think like, if you don't want people calling

1346
01:00:46,854 --> 01:00:49,793
Speaker 3: it that, then don't do things that appear to be that.

1347
01:00:49,974 --> 01:00:51,713
Speaker 2: If you don't want people calling it genocide, then don't

1348
01:00:51,734 --> 01:00:54,294
Speaker 2: do things that, that people feel like that's a genocide.

1349
01:00:54,714 --> 01:00:55,253
Speaker 1: That, yeah.

1350
01:00:55,754 --> 01:00:59,113
Speaker 3: And, um, you know, so it stops the argument, like

1351
01:00:59,294 --> 01:01:02,604
Speaker 3: people saying, well, we are able to do this because

1352
01:01:02,664 --> 01:01:04,403
Speaker 3: God said it, or the Bible said it. And then that,

1353
01:01:04,464 --> 01:01:06,554
Speaker 3: that ends the argument. You're like, well, what, what is

1354
01:01:06,574 --> 01:01:08,734
Speaker 3: your response? It doesn't give people a real response to it.

1355
01:01:08,754 --> 01:01:13,794
Speaker 3: There's no nuance. It doesn't, you know, and so I

1356
01:01:13,814 --> 01:01:16,734
Speaker 3: just think we get stuck on this, this genocide word

1357
01:01:17,294 --> 01:01:18,673
Speaker 3: and everyone's like, wait, if you're not going to call

1358
01:01:18,714 --> 01:01:20,684
Speaker 3: it a genocide, then I'm not going to discuss it.

1359
01:01:20,694 --> 01:01:21,934
Speaker 3: And then they're like, if you're going to call it

1360
01:01:21,994 --> 01:01:24,134
Speaker 3: a genocide, then I'm not going to discuss it. Let's

1361
01:01:24,154 --> 01:01:34,184
Speaker 3: just call it indiscriminate killings of many innocent people. And then,

1362
01:01:35,364 --> 01:01:37,863
Speaker 3: but you know, But at the end of the day,

1363
01:01:38,704 --> 01:01:40,484
Speaker 3: we have to call a thing a thing. But I

1364
01:01:40,504 --> 01:01:44,044
Speaker 3: don't want calling that thing a thing get in the

1365
01:01:44,084 --> 01:01:47,363
Speaker 3: way of discussing it in an honest and fulsome way.

1366
01:01:49,014 --> 01:01:53,733
Speaker 2: Once again, we end this podcast with you basically doing

1367
01:01:53,774 --> 01:01:54,314
Speaker 2: the thing I said.

1368
01:01:54,354 --> 01:02:00,194
Speaker 1: You don't mind getting some shit on you. You don't mind.

1369
01:02:00,234 --> 01:02:02,454
Speaker 2: I was just like, that's an answer that's guaranteed to

1370
01:02:02,494 --> 01:02:05,574
Speaker 2: make everybody mad.

1371
01:02:05,634 --> 01:02:10,093
Speaker 3: Both sides, right? However you feel about it. Yeah.

1372
01:02:10,294 --> 01:02:12,374
Speaker 2: I think I'm just a more sensitive person than you are, Don.

1373
01:02:12,554 --> 01:02:15,113
Speaker 2: Not that I'm saying I'm a better person. I'm just

1374
01:02:15,134 --> 01:02:17,483
Speaker 2: saying I'm more. I get very like, oh, I'm trying

1375
01:02:17,504 --> 01:02:19,304
Speaker 2: to make sure I say it the exact right way,

1376
01:02:19,624 --> 01:02:22,004
Speaker 2: that I express all of myself so people.

1377
01:02:21,804 --> 01:02:22,944
Speaker 1: Don't get confused.

1378
01:02:23,644 --> 01:02:31,054
Speaker 3: For me, talking about this is, I understand the hesitancy

1379
01:02:32,054 --> 01:02:39,054
Speaker 3: and I understand the complexity. But as someone who was.

1380
01:02:40,904 --> 01:02:42,934
Speaker 3: As part of a black Jewish alliance. I was like,

1381
01:02:43,654 --> 01:02:45,854
Speaker 3: don't tell me about, don't talk to me about antisemitism

1382
01:02:45,874 --> 01:02:50,914
Speaker 3: because I'm not an antisemite. And I believe that sometimes

1383
01:02:50,994 --> 01:02:53,334
Speaker 3: your friends have to hold up a mirror and say,

1384
01:02:53,354 --> 01:02:55,414
Speaker 3: you know, whether you believe this or not, whether this

1385
01:02:55,494 --> 01:02:57,804
Speaker 3: is true or not, this is a public sentiment about it.

1386
01:02:58,374 --> 01:03:02,874
Speaker 3: And maybe understanding or drawing some people in would help

1387
01:03:02,894 --> 01:03:07,434
Speaker 3: to fix that in some way. And that's it. Because

1388
01:03:07,454 --> 01:03:12,504
Speaker 3: you're used to enemies. doing certain things. And then so

1389
01:03:12,764 --> 01:03:15,044
Speaker 3: sometimes you forget about them and you stop criticizing them.

1390
01:03:15,344 --> 01:03:17,363
Speaker 3: And then when the people who love you or who

1391
01:03:17,404 --> 01:03:21,794
Speaker 3: support you start holding up a mirror or asking you like, hey,

1392
01:03:22,094 --> 01:03:24,414
Speaker 3: you should take a look at this, then you can't

1393
01:03:24,474 --> 01:03:28,073
Speaker 3: start to demonize them because those are the people who

1394
01:03:28,094 --> 01:03:30,613
Speaker 3: have supported you over time and who still do. And

1395
01:03:30,634 --> 01:03:33,174
Speaker 3: I think that that's where we are right now in

1396
01:03:33,194 --> 01:03:34,914
Speaker 3: this particular place.

1397
01:03:35,564 --> 01:03:38,584
Speaker 2: Well, Don, thank you for coming on today. I know

1398
01:03:38,604 --> 01:03:39,984
Speaker 2: you got, of course, you have a lot more to do.

1399
01:03:40,004 --> 01:03:41,943
Speaker 2: I'm sure you got to be outside later. I have

1400
01:03:42,204 --> 01:03:43,403
Speaker 2: two last questions.

1401
01:03:43,424 --> 01:03:44,264
Speaker 3: I am going outside.

1402
01:03:44,324 --> 01:03:45,444
Speaker 1: Yeah, go out. You're going outside.

1403
01:03:45,864 --> 01:03:48,173
Speaker 2: My penultimate question is, I always ask people if there's

1404
01:03:48,204 --> 01:03:50,314
Speaker 2: a cause or a nonprofit that they would like people

1405
01:03:50,354 --> 01:03:53,054
Speaker 2: to support or anything that is out there in the

1406
01:03:53,074 --> 01:03:53,694
Speaker 2: world that they want to.

1407
01:03:53,674 --> 01:03:54,394
Speaker 1: Put more light on.

1408
01:03:54,754 --> 01:03:56,174
Speaker 3: The Committee to Protect Journalists.

1409
01:03:56,754 --> 01:03:59,093
Speaker 1: Fair. Totally fair and understood. Yeah. That's it.

1410
01:03:59,134 --> 01:03:59,673
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.

1411
01:03:59,894 --> 01:04:01,304
Speaker 1: In this time, I think that makes sense.

1412
01:04:02,064 --> 01:04:04,424
Speaker 2: And they are there with legal support for journalists who

1413
01:04:04,484 --> 01:04:10,014
Speaker 2: are being targeted and oppressed by the forces of anti-free speech.

1414
01:04:10,634 --> 01:04:12,714
Speaker 3: And I will say, when you said in what message,

1415
01:04:13,194 --> 01:04:16,294
Speaker 3: even if you don't support the companies or the organizations

1416
01:04:16,334 --> 01:04:23,894
Speaker 3: that own the journalism platforms or companies, you should still

1417
01:04:23,934 --> 01:04:24,974
Speaker 3: support the journalists.

1418
01:04:25,454 --> 01:04:25,744
Speaker 1: Got it.

1419
01:04:26,094 --> 01:04:29,154
Speaker 3: Right? And you should demand the journalists be better. I

1420
01:04:29,214 --> 01:04:31,234
Speaker 3: still see a lot of hedging in corporate media, a

1421
01:04:31,254 --> 01:04:33,444
Speaker 3: lot of false equivalents, a lot, and it just drives

1422
01:04:33,494 --> 01:04:37,554
Speaker 3: me bonkers. And in this particular time, I think independent

1423
01:04:37,594 --> 01:04:43,923
Speaker 3: journalists are extremely important. And is that self-serving? Absolutely. But

1424
01:04:43,944 --> 01:04:49,584
Speaker 3: it is the truth. So subscribe. Support independent journalists like me,

1425
01:04:49,624 --> 01:04:52,864
Speaker 3: like Jim Acosta, like Joy Reid, like Kamau Bell. I

1426
01:04:52,864 --> 01:04:54,864
Speaker 3: don't know if you consider yourself a journalist, but you

1427
01:04:54,884 --> 01:04:58,494
Speaker 3: are a journalist. I thought it for years. I accept it.

1428
01:04:58,634 --> 01:05:01,744
Speaker 3: And support us because we don't. We don't have to

1429
01:05:01,924 --> 01:05:04,764
Speaker 3: listen to anybody but ourselves and you, the people we

1430
01:05:04,804 --> 01:05:08,304
Speaker 3: work for. So support us. Become a member. Subscribe. Tune

1431
01:05:08,344 --> 01:05:11,224
Speaker 3: us in. Shout us out. Don't expect us to be

1432
01:05:11,284 --> 01:05:14,694
Speaker 3: perfect because we're not. And don't expect to agree with us.

1433
01:05:14,734 --> 01:05:16,573
Speaker 3: You should never expect to agree with any journalist or

1434
01:05:16,594 --> 01:05:18,653
Speaker 3: any politician because you don't agree with your own wife

1435
01:05:18,714 --> 01:05:20,573
Speaker 3: or your mama or anybody in your family all the time.

1436
01:05:20,834 --> 01:05:23,474
Speaker 3: So why do you expect to... So keep it real

1437
01:05:23,614 --> 01:05:25,314
Speaker 3: and keep it pushing.

1438
01:05:25,374 --> 01:05:27,354
Speaker 2: I think that is important. Just because you support a journalist,

1439
01:05:27,374 --> 01:05:29,784
Speaker 2: that doesn't mean you should support... You should agree with

1440
01:05:29,804 --> 01:05:32,423
Speaker 2: everything they say. I think that is important. It just

1441
01:05:32,464 --> 01:05:34,804
Speaker 2: means you support the fact that you like the way

1442
01:05:34,824 --> 01:05:36,224
Speaker 2: they do their work. It doesn't mean you're always going

1443
01:05:36,244 --> 01:05:37,124
Speaker 2: to land in the same place.

1444
01:05:37,744 --> 01:05:37,943
Speaker 1: Right.

1445
01:05:38,024 --> 01:05:39,244
Speaker 3: Yeah. Amen.

1446
01:05:39,324 --> 01:05:42,124
Speaker 2: My last question, the podcast is called Who's With Me.

1447
01:05:42,304 --> 01:05:43,323
Speaker 2: Don Lemon, are you with me?

1448
01:05:44,344 --> 01:05:48,224
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm here, right? I'm here, Negro, aren't I?

1449
01:05:48,624 --> 01:05:51,064
Speaker 1: Yes, you are. And you've been with me a long time,

1450
01:05:51,084 --> 01:05:53,804
Speaker 1: so I appreciate you, brother. As have you. Thank you

1451
01:05:53,824 --> 01:05:55,954
Speaker 1: for doing this. Yeah, I appreciate it.

1452
01:05:56,424 --> 01:06:01,264
Speaker 3: Tully Quilley, I said hello. No, you know we made up, right?

1453
01:06:01,284 --> 01:06:02,944
Speaker 1: No, I know you did. He apologized. No, I know

1454
01:06:02,964 --> 01:06:04,483
Speaker 1: you did. And we had a great talk. No, I've

1455
01:06:04,504 --> 01:06:05,684
Speaker 1: seen it. That's why I brought it up, because I

1456
01:06:05,704 --> 01:06:07,323
Speaker 1: knew it wasn't still beef. I wasn't trying to bring

1457
01:06:07,364 --> 01:06:08,264
Speaker 1: up more beef, but yeah.

1458
01:06:08,504 --> 01:06:11,684
Speaker 3: I'm messing with you, because he almost kept us apart.

1459
01:06:11,964 --> 01:06:13,244
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1460
01:06:16,864 --> 01:06:19,604
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to my conversation with Don Lemon. We

1461
01:06:19,624 --> 01:06:21,534
Speaker 2: had a great time. I'd never really talked to Don

1462
01:06:21,574 --> 01:06:23,854
Speaker 2: like that before, sort of that clearly, and just about

1463
01:06:24,794 --> 01:06:27,014
Speaker 2: our various approaches. So I was happy to talk to Don.

1464
01:06:29,484 --> 01:06:32,184
Speaker 2: I would imagine you might hear from Francesca Ramsey, which

1465
01:06:32,704 --> 01:06:35,524
Speaker 2: she can handle her own business. But Don wanted us

1466
01:06:35,564 --> 01:06:40,004
Speaker 2: to think about the Committee to Protect Journalists, cpj.org, the

1467
01:06:40,024 --> 01:06:42,904
Speaker 2: Committee to Protect Journalists. Free speech is important. Freedom of

1468
01:06:42,924 --> 01:06:44,884
Speaker 2: the press is important. So please check out the Committee

1469
01:06:44,904 --> 01:06:47,874
Speaker 2: to Protect Journalists. Now, maybe more than ever before in

1470
01:06:47,894 --> 01:06:50,194
Speaker 2: the history of the country, we need to support that organization.

1471
01:06:50,234 --> 01:06:51,994
Speaker 2: And again, if you can't give them money, you can

1472
01:06:52,034 --> 01:06:54,454
Speaker 2: actually just, you can just social media about it. Just

1473
01:06:54,714 --> 01:06:56,394
Speaker 2: take a screen grab of it or just send out

1474
01:06:56,414 --> 01:06:58,044
Speaker 2: the link just to, The more we sort of get

1475
01:06:58,084 --> 01:06:59,903
Speaker 2: these things out there, the more other people will know

1476
01:06:59,944 --> 01:07:01,584
Speaker 2: about them and maybe be able to support them.

1477
01:07:01,924 --> 01:07:02,284
Speaker 1: So, yeah.

1478
01:07:02,704 --> 01:07:05,784
Speaker 2: And Don Lemon, you can see him on YouTube. You

1479
01:07:05,804 --> 01:07:08,323
Speaker 2: can see him on Substack. You can see him on Instagram.

1480
01:07:08,384 --> 01:07:11,503
Speaker 2: He's out there everywhere. He's at Don Lemon, the Don

1481
01:07:11,524 --> 01:07:14,003
Speaker 2: Lemon Show. Just put it in your device, and you'll

1482
01:07:14,044 --> 01:07:16,364
Speaker 2: find Don Lemon. He does the Don Lemon Show twice

1483
01:07:16,414 --> 01:07:18,593
Speaker 2: a day, and then he does extra special appearances when

1484
01:07:18,614 --> 01:07:21,854
Speaker 2: the news demands it. And, again, you can preorder my

1485
01:07:21,914 --> 01:07:25,254
Speaker 2: new book with Adam Mansback, Rock, Paper, Scissors, Cheese. The

1486
01:07:25,294 --> 01:07:28,374
Speaker 2: links are in the show notes. And thanks to Ravagrin Productions,

1487
01:07:28,754 --> 01:07:32,484
Speaker 2: Pushkin Industries, and who knows Best Productions. Special thanks to

1488
01:07:32,524 --> 01:07:36,334
Speaker 2: Chris Dowd from Fishbone for the theme music. And again,

1489
01:07:36,394 --> 01:07:39,034
Speaker 2: do something good for yourself, for your community, and for

1490
01:07:39,054 --> 01:07:39,434
Speaker 2: the world.