WEBVTT - Founding Critical Race Theory 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:24.836 Pushkin Getting Even is produced by Pushkin Industries. Subscribe to 0:00:24.916 --> 0:00:28.356 Pushkin Plus and you can hear Getting Even and other 0:00:28.436 --> 0:00:34.716 Pushkin shows add free and receive exclusive bonus episodes. Sign 0:00:34.796 --> 0:00:38.756 up on the Getting Even show page in Apple Podcasts 0:00:38.996 --> 0:00:46.556 or at Pushkin dot Fm. Just like you cross intersections 0:00:46.556 --> 0:00:50.076 and there's traffic moving north and south and east and west, 0:00:50.556 --> 0:00:55.476 black women have been impacted by the combination of race 0:00:55.596 --> 0:01:00.996 traffic gender traffic. So that's where intersectionality came from. That's 0:01:01.076 --> 0:01:05.036 legal scholar and professor Kimberly Crenshaw. When she introduced the 0:01:05.076 --> 0:01:09.036 concept of intersectionality in the late nineteen eighties, Crenshaw was 0:01:09.276 --> 0:01:14.316 underlining the ways that race and gender discrimination converge. As 0:01:14.316 --> 0:01:16.796 a student, she saw how laws that address race and 0:01:16.916 --> 0:01:22.556 gender separately failed to deliver justice to those at the intersections. 0:01:22.556 --> 0:01:26.636 Just an attempt to help lawyers see things that they 0:01:26.756 --> 0:01:31.276 apparently were having a hard time sin. Intersectionality found its 0:01:31.276 --> 0:01:34.996 way into the Oxford English Dictionary in twenty fifteen and 0:01:35.116 --> 0:01:38.436 became widely used in discussions about the Women's March and 0:01:38.636 --> 0:01:42.716 the Me Too movement. But intersectionality isn't the only phrase 0:01:42.756 --> 0:01:46.316 that Timberly Crenshaw has coined. Crenshaw is one of the 0:01:46.396 --> 0:01:52.196 handful of legal scholars who originated and developed critical race theory. 0:01:52.676 --> 0:01:57.356 In Layman's terms, I would describe it as the study 0:01:57.436 --> 0:02:06.876 of how law consistently supports institutionalized forms of racial inequality. 0:02:07.916 --> 0:02:13.076 Like intersectionality, critical race theory was originally developed to unpack 0:02:13.196 --> 0:02:17.396 issues of identity and status in our justice system, and 0:02:17.556 --> 0:02:21.836 like intersectionality, critical race theory has become a household phrase. 0:02:22.396 --> 0:02:26.516 It's also become a cornerstone for a national attack on education. 0:02:27.396 --> 0:02:30.356 It's used to shut down any additions to the curriculum 0:02:30.396 --> 0:02:34.596 taught in American public schools which would more accurately reflect 0:02:34.676 --> 0:02:43.316 our nation's history. I'm Anita Hill. This is getting even 0:02:44.316 --> 0:02:47.796 my podcast about equality and what it takes to get there. 0:02:49.156 --> 0:02:53.236 I'll be speaking with people who are improving our imperfect world, 0:02:53.996 --> 0:02:58.676 people who took risks and broke the rules. In this episode, 0:02:58.956 --> 0:03:05.836 I'm talking with Kimberly Crenshaw about critical race theory. Crenshaw 0:03:05.876 --> 0:03:09.036 and I have known each other since the nineteen eighties. 0:03:09.716 --> 0:03:12.076 I think people need to know that. At the time 0:03:12.076 --> 0:03:15.476 and need to there was just a handful of black 0:03:15.516 --> 0:03:19.276 women law professors. We all either knew each other or 0:03:19.436 --> 0:03:22.116 new of each other. We could all get in a 0:03:22.156 --> 0:03:26.996 minivan if we had a lunch meeting. You know, we 0:03:27.076 --> 0:03:31.396 just need one table, right, Yes, Crenshaw and I both 0:03:31.476 --> 0:03:35.356 found that our formal education lack teaching about race, racism, 0:03:35.396 --> 0:03:39.676 and the law. For Crenshaw, that meant creating the theories 0:03:39.676 --> 0:03:44.436 that we're missing writing them herself. You know, funny, you 0:03:44.476 --> 0:03:47.716 should say that my mic is sitting here on the 0:03:47.716 --> 0:03:51.836 Critical Race Theory Book as we speak. It's the foundation 0:03:51.916 --> 0:03:57.076 of everything, right, the critic It's called the Red Book now, 0:03:57.196 --> 0:03:59.756 the Critical Race Theory the key writings that formed the 0:03:59.876 --> 0:04:05.716 movement effectively. If we want to understand, for example, why 0:04:06.196 --> 0:04:10.996 we still have housing segregation that in some ways is 0:04:11.236 --> 0:04:16.956 as significant ablight upon our society as it was fifty 0:04:17.036 --> 0:04:21.716 years ago, we have to look at how legally segregated 0:04:21.756 --> 0:04:25.996 neighborhoods were created and sustained. If we want to understand 0:04:26.036 --> 0:04:32.756 why schools remain racially separated, we have to understand the 0:04:32.876 --> 0:04:40.876 legacy of decisions that are perfectly legal that sustain racial separation. 0:04:41.476 --> 0:04:46.236 So the overall point is to understand that race and 0:04:46.356 --> 0:04:52.276 racism are legally constituted concepts and processes. We like to 0:04:52.316 --> 0:04:55.596 think of Critical race theory not so much of a thing, 0:04:55.756 --> 0:04:58.996 but of a way of viewing a thing, a way 0:04:58.996 --> 0:05:01.596 of viewing what we think. Race is a way of 0:05:01.716 --> 0:05:06.836 understanding why it is utterly predictable who's most likely to 0:05:06.916 --> 0:05:10.356 be the CEO and who's most likely to be the 0:05:10.436 --> 0:05:15.156 person cleaning the CEO's office. Race is still a primary 0:05:15.356 --> 0:05:20.556 factor in determining access to the good things in life. 0:05:21.156 --> 0:05:24.836 As long as race is a predictive factor, we would 0:05:24.956 --> 0:05:29.436 want to understand, well, how does it happen fifty years 0:05:29.516 --> 0:05:34.196 after Brown versus Board of Education, the Civil Rights Act 0:05:34.316 --> 0:05:36.836 of sixty four and sixty five? Why do we still 0:05:36.836 --> 0:05:41.076 have these problems? Critical race theory attempts to ask those 0:05:41.156 --> 0:05:44.996 questions and provide some answers from the vantage point of 0:05:45.036 --> 0:05:49.396 the law. We didn't know it was called critical race theory, 0:05:50.156 --> 0:05:56.996 but we started the thinking as a way of understanding why. 0:05:57.196 --> 0:06:01.356 When we arrived at Harvard Law School, we saw ourselves 0:06:01.396 --> 0:06:06.316 as advancing the cause of racial justice through learning how 0:06:06.316 --> 0:06:09.036 to be good lawyers. And we got there and found 0:06:09.156 --> 0:06:13.676 that there really weren't many courses, many any courses that 0:06:13.796 --> 0:06:18.276 were dedicated to sharing the knowledge about how to do that. 0:06:18.476 --> 0:06:21.796 Derek Bell's courses were no longer being taught. He left 0:06:22.356 --> 0:06:28.476 before we got there, So we engaged in a strategy 0:06:28.596 --> 0:06:33.596 of trying to ask politely the institution to teach us 0:06:33.596 --> 0:06:37.516 these courses, and the institution didn't think that they were 0:06:37.916 --> 0:06:42.396 as significant as we did. It was, in fact, Derek Bell, 0:06:42.516 --> 0:06:46.556 who was this towering figure in legal education, who had 0:06:46.636 --> 0:06:50.676 this famous class of Race in the Law that he 0:06:50.756 --> 0:06:55.356 taught at Harvard. But it was his absence that really 0:06:55.476 --> 0:07:00.676 drove you and the other students to organize. That's a 0:07:00.836 --> 0:07:04.476 real irony. You would think that, Okay would be inspired 0:07:04.476 --> 0:07:08.476 by Derek Bell, and that's how things happen. But when 0:07:08.476 --> 0:07:11.476 you get to a place and you know something is missing, 0:07:11.676 --> 0:07:15.276 you know it's needed, and that it has been there before, 0:07:15.996 --> 0:07:21.996 you all were inspired to do something about it. Yeah, 0:07:22.036 --> 0:07:25.436 we invited law professors of color from across the country 0:07:25.476 --> 0:07:29.876 to come and teach a chapter out of Derek Bell's book, Race, Racism, 0:07:30.356 --> 0:07:34.236 and American Law, and it came out of a concrete 0:07:34.316 --> 0:07:38.396 engagement with institutions that weren't prepared to deal with us. 0:07:38.716 --> 0:07:42.556 That cohort of students included Maria Matsuda. Some of the 0:07:42.596 --> 0:07:46.676 people that we invited included Chuck Lawrence, Richard Delgado the 0:07:47.196 --> 0:07:52.836 core group that eventually came together with about twenty other people, 0:07:53.316 --> 0:07:57.556 and we called ourselves critical race theorists. Basically, we were 0:07:57.596 --> 0:08:01.476 the kids who were watching the civil rights movement happened 0:08:01.756 --> 0:08:06.316 on television. We were the ones who were aware but 0:08:06.556 --> 0:08:10.876 not old enough to really become involved in the demands 0:08:10.956 --> 0:08:15.476 for voting and the demands for even what we were called. 0:08:15.556 --> 0:08:18.036 I mean, you and I grew up at a time 0:08:18.076 --> 0:08:20.756 where it wasn't even a good thing to be called 0:08:20.756 --> 0:08:27.076 a black person, right. So, becoming a law student going 0:08:27.116 --> 0:08:32.316 into these institutions, after having watched the doors open and 0:08:32.916 --> 0:08:37.076 understanding the role that students had played not only in 0:08:37.196 --> 0:08:41.556 voting rights, not only snick, but the role that students 0:08:41.556 --> 0:08:44.556 had played in universities, to say, look, universities, you are 0:08:44.596 --> 0:08:49.996 not immune. You are not disconnected from what's happening in 0:08:49.996 --> 0:08:52.196 the rest of the society. If we don't have the 0:08:52.236 --> 0:08:56.876 ability to learn what the true history was, what reconstruction 0:08:57.076 --> 0:09:00.916 was all about, how all of the advances from reconstruction 0:09:00.996 --> 0:09:04.716 were rolled back. If we're not learning that stuff, we're 0:09:04.756 --> 0:09:09.996 not learning the truth about America. So we went into 0:09:10.236 --> 0:09:14.356 Harvard Law School with the sense that we were entitled 0:09:14.396 --> 0:09:18.556 to learn this history. That's what desegregation was supposed to 0:09:18.556 --> 0:09:22.756 be about, not just about bodies, but about knowledge. So 0:09:23.076 --> 0:09:26.636 in going there and thinking, okay, well, the person we 0:09:26.636 --> 0:09:29.116 were coming here to learn from, the courses we were 0:09:29.276 --> 0:09:34.116 hoping to take are not being offered. Surely you're going 0:09:34.196 --> 0:09:38.716 to do something about this, right, And the answer was 0:09:38.876 --> 0:09:44.356 as instructive as the absence. The absence presented the moment 0:09:44.476 --> 0:09:48.236 to raise the question, and the answer to the question 0:09:48.356 --> 0:09:54.716 told us reams right, like, basically, there are no qualified 0:09:54.796 --> 0:09:58.756 people of color, at least people we think who are 0:09:58.836 --> 0:10:01.636 qualified to come here and teach. Well, that caused us 0:10:01.636 --> 0:10:05.756 to say, well, what counts this qualification, particularly in an 0:10:05.756 --> 0:10:11.116 institution and an entire field that into like yesterday largely 0:10:11.316 --> 0:10:13.996 was a place that was not welcoming to people of color. 0:10:14.276 --> 0:10:17.716 So how do you become qualified when your people weren't 0:10:17.716 --> 0:10:22.116 really part of that institution? And we were coming so 0:10:22.676 --> 0:10:26.036 inspired by what had happened during the first fifteen years 0:10:26.036 --> 0:10:28.436 of the civil rights movement, we thought, of course it's 0:10:28.436 --> 0:10:31.556 going to continue, right, these are the new lunch counters. 0:10:32.036 --> 0:10:36.076 And we got there, Nita, just as the Supreme Court 0:10:36.116 --> 0:10:38.876 was beginning to push back and beginning to say, we're 0:10:38.916 --> 0:10:40.756 at the end of the road. We've done all the 0:10:40.796 --> 0:10:45.396 reform that's necessary, So telling us why there wasn't more 0:10:45.476 --> 0:10:49.876 coming became the text that we were reading and critiquing, 0:10:50.276 --> 0:10:54.076 and that critique became critical race theory. This was a 0:10:54.156 --> 0:10:58.996 conversation happening mostly inside law schools, and not even in 0:10:59.196 --> 0:11:03.316 all law schools at that Nope, but law school conversations 0:11:03.356 --> 0:11:08.036 were going on in the eighties and then ultimately though, 0:11:08.076 --> 0:11:12.636 this idea started to spread outside of the law school, 0:11:12.676 --> 0:11:15.516 and one of the factors was a book that you 0:11:15.676 --> 0:11:20.436 co author, that book, Critical Race Theory, the key writings. 0:11:21.036 --> 0:11:26.436 But even in the nineties, Kimberley wasn't It's pretty fair 0:11:26.556 --> 0:11:30.476 to say that critical race theory was something that was 0:11:31.476 --> 0:11:38.156 really still thought about in the academy in law and 0:11:38.436 --> 0:11:41.916 even though it started to spread in other areas, it 0:11:41.916 --> 0:11:43.996 was still by the end of the nineties, it was 0:11:44.076 --> 0:11:49.716 still in academic. Yeah, people started reading it in political science, 0:11:50.316 --> 0:11:54.836 in sociology and American studies and cultural studies, and so 0:11:54.876 --> 0:11:58.556 that's where it existed until like last year, and then 0:11:58.596 --> 0:12:05.556 it was discovered as the Unamerican anti American idea. I 0:12:05.556 --> 0:12:07.676 don't know if this is one of the reasons. But 0:12:08.356 --> 0:12:12.156 evidence of that is the extent to which it was 0:12:12.996 --> 0:12:17.956 challenging for people to think about race and racial power 0:12:18.076 --> 0:12:23.556 outside of the framework of an individually biased person. And 0:12:23.716 --> 0:12:28.116 the solution to that narrow conception of what racism is 0:12:28.196 --> 0:12:30.796 or could be was, well, let's not look at race, 0:12:31.036 --> 0:12:35.156 let's all be colorblind. So there was sort of a 0:12:35.276 --> 0:12:39.836 bipartisan discomfort with some of the core ideas in critical 0:12:39.916 --> 0:12:43.956 race theory, which where race does not go away because 0:12:43.996 --> 0:12:47.236 you don't name it. Racism is not something that you 0:12:47.276 --> 0:12:51.876 can solve by being colorblind. My analogy has always been, 0:12:52.476 --> 0:12:57.316 we realize that we built our institutions with toxic material 0:12:57.396 --> 0:13:01.916 like asbestos. We don't think the solution to brown lung 0:13:01.956 --> 0:13:05.476 disease is to not notice that this asbestos is there, 0:13:06.156 --> 0:13:11.836 not use the word or terminology asbestos, and to criticize 0:13:12.116 --> 0:13:15.956 those experts who can tell you where the asbestos is 0:13:15.996 --> 0:13:18.996 tucked away in our institutions. We would never do that 0:13:19.556 --> 0:13:23.076 with something that we really cared about. Yet we've done 0:13:23.116 --> 0:13:27.036 that with race and racism. So it's only been, i 0:13:27.076 --> 0:13:31.196 would say, in the reckoning around Black Lives Matter, and 0:13:31.276 --> 0:13:37.156 in particular in twenty twenty during the uprisings around Brianna 0:13:37.236 --> 0:13:41.156 Taylor and George Floyd that people started uttering the phrases 0:13:41.236 --> 0:13:45.236 structural racism, and so I think that created both more 0:13:45.756 --> 0:13:49.316 of a demand for critical thinking about race and then 0:13:49.636 --> 0:13:54.356 quickly after that the backlash against critical thinking about race. 0:13:55.756 --> 0:13:59.676 After the break, we discussed the recent backlash against critical 0:13:59.756 --> 0:14:03.476 race theory, the power struggle over school curriculum and the 0:14:03.556 --> 0:14:09.236 role of education, and moving us toward a more equal society. 0:14:13.036 --> 0:14:18.036 You're listening to getting even I'm Anita Hill. I'm speaking 0:14:18.236 --> 0:14:21.756 with Kimberly Crenshaw, the legal scholar who coined the terms 0:14:22.036 --> 0:14:26.716 intersectionality and critical race theory. And we can't talk about 0:14:26.796 --> 0:14:31.916 CRT without talking about education. Can you talk about how 0:14:31.956 --> 0:14:36.356 your early education got you to thinking about race, gender 0:14:36.396 --> 0:14:42.356 and the law. Well, you know, Anita, it's not even 0:14:42.516 --> 0:14:45.996 my early education. It's sitting at the dinner table. My 0:14:46.076 --> 0:14:50.836 mother was what we might call a race woman of 0:14:50.836 --> 0:14:54.236 the twentieth century. She was born and raised in Kent, Ohio, 0:14:54.996 --> 0:15:00.116 and partly because her father was the town's physician, they 0:15:00.636 --> 0:15:06.996 weren't constrained by concerns that many other folks had to 0:15:07.036 --> 0:15:10.436 worry about that if they demanded their equal rights, they 0:15:10.436 --> 0:15:14.756 would lose jobs. The way that segregation was reinforced in 0:15:14.836 --> 0:15:21.196 the North was through economic punishment, and because they relied 0:15:21.316 --> 0:15:26.316 on the black community for their livelihood, they were freer 0:15:26.436 --> 0:15:30.916 to demand certain rights. So my mom her first civil 0:15:30.996 --> 0:15:34.116 rights action was as a three year old, integrating the 0:15:34.196 --> 0:15:38.156 Waiting pool, and she talks about remembering what happened when 0:15:38.236 --> 0:15:40.596 they decided to drain the pool with her in it. 0:15:41.676 --> 0:15:45.436 Right said, she was splashing around and the water kept 0:15:45.436 --> 0:15:48.596 getting lower and lower until it was sucked down the drain, 0:15:49.316 --> 0:15:53.436 and her mom gathered her up, went to the neighborhood, 0:15:53.476 --> 0:15:56.596 got a whole bunch of other black kids, went and 0:15:56.636 --> 0:15:59.436 got swimming suits, and went right back and jumped back 0:15:59.476 --> 0:16:02.716 into the pool that had been refilled. That was sort 0:16:02.756 --> 0:16:06.356 of where she came from. And at our dinner table 0:16:06.476 --> 0:16:09.556 we heard these stories. I was raised in the town 0:16:09.556 --> 0:16:12.556 that she grew up in. The history was built in 0:16:12.596 --> 0:16:15.916 the geography everywhere we went. That was the place that 0:16:15.996 --> 0:16:18.756 didn't want to serve us at the counter, That was 0:16:18.756 --> 0:16:20.796 the movie theater that didn't want to let us sit 0:16:20.836 --> 0:16:24.076 where we wanted to sit. So that was the conversation 0:16:24.676 --> 0:16:28.956 at the dinner table. So a lot of my childhood 0:16:29.156 --> 0:16:34.156 was trying to navigate how to think about this thing 0:16:34.316 --> 0:16:38.996 that happens, this thing called racism. So going to school 0:16:39.796 --> 0:16:42.596 was a process of trying to figure out, well, why 0:16:42.636 --> 0:16:47.036 aren't we talking about this. You are one of the 0:16:47.116 --> 0:16:53.876 legal scholars who developed critical race theory beginning when you 0:16:53.956 --> 0:16:58.556 were in law school. I wanted to go to law 0:16:58.596 --> 0:17:01.556 school because I wanted to understand how to dismantle the 0:17:01.636 --> 0:17:04.876 things that are just kind of built in. And my 0:17:04.916 --> 0:17:09.356 eyes were continuously open to the fact that this thing 0:17:09.436 --> 0:17:12.996 called racism is not just about people with a bad heart. 0:17:13.676 --> 0:17:16.676 It's not about people who don't like us because of 0:17:16.716 --> 0:17:21.396 our skin color. It's about deeply structured ways in which 0:17:21.436 --> 0:17:27.196 disadvantage functions. It's about the historical ways that those platforms 0:17:27.236 --> 0:17:32.716 of advantage and disadvantage can reproduce themselves without anybody intending 0:17:32.756 --> 0:17:36.196 to do it. So law school was the place where 0:17:36.316 --> 0:17:38.636 I'd be able to develop the tools to do something 0:17:38.676 --> 0:17:43.356 about it. One could have figured that something like a 0:17:43.476 --> 0:17:46.516 concept like critical race theory, like a way of thinking 0:17:46.556 --> 0:17:51.276 about race, that there would be attacks. So why I'm 0:17:51.356 --> 0:17:54.756 asking this rhetorically, but I'm also asking it literally, Why 0:17:54.796 --> 0:18:00.116 didn't you see it coming? Well, you know I did 0:18:01.116 --> 0:18:04.316 see it coming. I actually see worse coming. And that's 0:18:05.076 --> 0:18:09.356 really what worries me so much. I mean, race reform 0:18:09.516 --> 0:18:14.156 has in this country always been met with a backlash, 0:18:14.236 --> 0:18:19.436 and sometimes the backlash was more powerful and lasted longer 0:18:19.476 --> 0:18:23.596 than the reform did. So if you think about reconstruction, 0:18:24.276 --> 0:18:26.956 you know, how do we take people who had been 0:18:27.036 --> 0:18:32.676 enslaved and make them full fledged citizens? That lasted about 0:18:32.756 --> 0:18:37.596 a decade. The reaction to that, the retrenchment to that, 0:18:38.316 --> 0:18:41.876 lasted over a half century. In the mid eighties to 0:18:41.876 --> 0:18:45.836 the nineties, the response to civil rights claim was you're 0:18:45.876 --> 0:18:53.356 asking for handouts. Remedies are reverse discrimination, preferential treatment. That 0:18:53.476 --> 0:18:55.956 was a backlash to the sixties, and it was a 0:18:56.036 --> 0:19:00.556 backlash that articulated itself in the same way that the 0:19:00.596 --> 0:19:06.436 backlash against reconstruction was articulated. So reform and retrenchment have 0:19:06.596 --> 0:19:11.236 been a dynamic deeply structured into American society. So that's 0:19:11.276 --> 0:19:14.676 a pattern that we've seen and I'm more or less 0:19:14.716 --> 0:19:19.076 expected at. What worried me the most was when then 0:19:19.236 --> 0:19:24.236 President Trump issued an executive order against all training in 0:19:24.276 --> 0:19:30.596 the federal government to advance equal opportunity, framing that as discriminatory. 0:19:31.036 --> 0:19:33.996 Most people, I think we're thinking ay, it would go 0:19:34.076 --> 0:19:38.956 away if Biden got elected and he would rescind the order, 0:19:38.996 --> 0:19:43.116 which happened. What they didn't anticipate would be that this 0:19:43.156 --> 0:19:47.636 would become a multi state strategy. It would quickly go 0:19:47.716 --> 0:19:51.356 through state legislatures where there wasn't much pushback, and it 0:19:51.396 --> 0:19:56.036 would quickly turn into brush fires in school boards. I 0:19:56.076 --> 0:19:59.436 think people didn't see that coming, and as a consequence, 0:19:59.476 --> 0:20:03.116 there wasn't a sense of what the response should be 0:20:03.436 --> 0:20:06.356 to the problem. Because what they're getting at is the 0:20:06.436 --> 0:20:10.196 fundamental idea that in order to to become a more 0:20:10.236 --> 0:20:13.076 perfect union, we have to address the ways in which 0:20:13.116 --> 0:20:17.156 we are and always have been imperfect well, and what 0:20:17.236 --> 0:20:20.076 it says is that it's ultimately going back to the 0:20:20.156 --> 0:20:24.076 day when you were in school trying to figure it 0:20:24.116 --> 0:20:28.476 out yourself. Yeah. Yeah, that is what we're doing to children. 0:20:29.436 --> 0:20:34.116 And as you pointed out, when we were going into 0:20:34.236 --> 0:20:37.476 law school with a sense that we had a right 0:20:37.596 --> 0:20:42.476 to this more inclusive education, it was because it had 0:20:42.516 --> 0:20:45.236 been there. It was because there were elements of it 0:20:45.756 --> 0:20:50.236 in various places. And I think our opponents recognize that 0:20:50.716 --> 0:20:52.876 if you give them a taste of it, if you 0:20:53.516 --> 0:20:55.916 open up the door to any of this, it will 0:20:55.996 --> 0:21:02.036 become the fuel that will energize future generations to ask 0:21:02.076 --> 0:21:06.916 for more of it, so shut it down completely. Their 0:21:06.996 --> 0:21:12.476 reaction shows how significant it is to be able to 0:21:12.556 --> 0:21:16.916 really grapple with uncover the ground upon which we stand, 0:21:17.076 --> 0:21:21.156 because if it was insignificant, they wouldn't be spending millions 0:21:21.156 --> 0:21:24.716 of dollars trying to shut it down. Now, one of 0:21:24.756 --> 0:21:29.116 the responses I've heard is for students of color, and 0:21:29.276 --> 0:21:34.036 really any students or faculty teachers who are subjected to 0:21:34.276 --> 0:21:38.756 having their curriculum stifled or whitewashed, there is a recourse, 0:21:38.836 --> 0:21:45.196 and that is you go to predominantly black university or 0:21:45.556 --> 0:21:50.476 college where perhaps if it's not a state's fund at college, 0:21:51.036 --> 0:21:55.476 then you are able to teach whatever you want to learn, 0:21:55.556 --> 0:21:58.196 what you want to understand race and someone in a 0:21:58.236 --> 0:22:01.916 different way then you will if you're going to a 0:22:01.956 --> 0:22:05.876 school where the material has been banned. You know, I 0:22:05.956 --> 0:22:08.276 thought about that, and it really does get to this 0:22:08.396 --> 0:22:15.676 larger question shit about choice as well as about the 0:22:15.756 --> 0:22:18.876 value of degrees, and that's part of the racism and 0:22:18.916 --> 0:22:23.236 structural racism that we exist with. When you get a 0:22:23.236 --> 0:22:26.996 degree from Harvard or Yale or their University of Oklahoma, 0:22:27.076 --> 0:22:30.396 it comes with a whole network of people and resources 0:22:30.436 --> 0:22:33.196 that you're not likely to get in a smaller institution, 0:22:33.556 --> 0:22:35.996 and especially not likely to get in an institution with 0:22:36.116 --> 0:22:39.356 less funding, which is often the case for our historically 0:22:39.356 --> 0:22:44.996 BIA colleges and universities. Do we ask students to give 0:22:45.076 --> 0:22:48.236 up those benefits in order to learn about how to 0:22:48.356 --> 0:22:51.596 end racism? Is it fair to those students? I mean, 0:22:51.716 --> 0:22:55.996 is there an equal protection argument to be made that 0:22:56.196 --> 0:23:02.236 something is lost when you are not provided with the 0:23:02.316 --> 0:23:07.876 information that is critical to understanding bias and oppression in 0:23:07.956 --> 0:23:14.036 this country. Well, one of the strategies that has been 0:23:14.156 --> 0:23:19.796 much discussed is to raise precisely that argument that Brown 0:23:19.916 --> 0:23:24.956 versus Board, and the entire legacy of that monumental case 0:23:25.756 --> 0:23:35.036 was that democracy requires equitable educational opportunity. That's why the 0:23:35.356 --> 0:23:40.396 real injury that Linda Brown experience wasn't simply that race 0:23:40.556 --> 0:23:44.316 was taken into account in making the school assignment. That 0:23:44.356 --> 0:23:47.356 would mean that the white students were harmed in the 0:23:47.396 --> 0:23:50.236 same way that Linda Brown was harmed. And so the 0:23:50.356 --> 0:23:55.756 main argument there was that the message of racial subordination 0:23:56.396 --> 0:24:03.356 that is generated from segregation undermines our guarantee of democracy. 0:24:03.596 --> 0:24:08.876 It doesn't end with just segregation. It includes the content 0:24:09.156 --> 0:24:13.876 of education. It includes saying that there's only one story 0:24:13.956 --> 0:24:19.996 that is the permissible official story of America, and it's 0:24:19.996 --> 0:24:24.956 a story that does not explore the consequences of enslavement 0:24:25.076 --> 0:24:29.716 and of all of the other racial dynamics that built 0:24:29.716 --> 0:24:33.916 this country. So when you have an educational system that 0:24:34.116 --> 0:24:40.716 denies and deprives constituencies of the actual factual information that 0:24:40.796 --> 0:24:45.676 explains our history and explains how and why our society 0:24:45.716 --> 0:24:49.196 looks the way it does now, I would say that 0:24:49.196 --> 0:24:53.996 that compromises the very values that Brown versus Board of 0:24:54.116 --> 0:24:59.476 Education embodied. So I think there is an argument to 0:24:59.556 --> 0:25:03.236 be made. I think it has a deeper grounding in 0:25:03.316 --> 0:25:07.356 what the fourteenth Amendment was all about. We cannot have 0:25:07.516 --> 0:25:11.596 an equal citizen and when we're not willing to tell 0:25:11.596 --> 0:25:16.236 the full story of when our society embraced inequality and 0:25:16.356 --> 0:25:20.036 what the echoes of that embrace continue to be. So 0:25:20.156 --> 0:25:24.556 my hope is that there will be more affirmative efforts 0:25:24.596 --> 0:25:28.676 to fight back against this repression. The fourteenth Amendment does 0:25:28.716 --> 0:25:34.876 embody a value, and these laws undermine that value. That's 0:25:34.916 --> 0:25:37.636 what we need to be able to teach our young people. 0:25:37.716 --> 0:25:39.716 That's what we need to be able to say to 0:25:39.756 --> 0:25:43.556 ourselves and to our elected officials, and that's what we 0:25:43.556 --> 0:25:47.956 should hold them accountable to. That value that was fought 0:25:47.996 --> 0:25:51.876 and died for, that value that was resuscitated in mid 0:25:51.876 --> 0:25:54.796 twentieth century, and that value that has to rise again 0:25:55.276 --> 0:25:58.796 if we're to save this country. And this is where 0:25:58.996 --> 0:26:03.796 a need of I feel that our generation has got 0:26:03.836 --> 0:26:07.916 to make up for the losses. So for me, for 0:26:08.116 --> 0:26:10.076 at least the rest of my life, it's like, well, 0:26:10.076 --> 0:26:12.116 we've got to fight back because we have got to 0:26:12.116 --> 0:26:15.196 pass on something to the next generation. It's got to 0:26:15.196 --> 0:26:19.436 be better than what they're getting if these laws are effective. So, 0:26:20.036 --> 0:26:24.756 you know, the performance that we are seeing by all 0:26:24.796 --> 0:26:31.236 of these critics, the hyperbole, the hysteria around telling the 0:26:31.276 --> 0:26:35.476 truth about the constitution, telling the truth about slavery, telling 0:26:35.516 --> 0:26:38.516 the truth about the Civil War and the laws cause 0:26:38.596 --> 0:26:43.636 and segregation. The response that we ought to collectively have 0:26:44.316 --> 0:26:46.676 is to read all this stuff right, all this stuff, 0:26:46.836 --> 0:26:54.596 learn all this stuff, and act accordingly. Kimberly Crenshaw's work 0:26:54.676 --> 0:26:58.356 has helped move us to a more equitable world. Her 0:26:58.396 --> 0:27:04.076 ideas have enriched the learning experiences of countless students. Education 0:27:04.236 --> 0:27:10.596 is currency and stifling education has real costs. We all lose. 0:27:12.276 --> 0:27:16.796 If we limit critical thinking about inequalities, we will pass 0:27:17.116 --> 0:27:22.676 problems of racism on to our children. Quinshaw's words are 0:27:22.676 --> 0:27:26.916 an urgent call to action, because learning the truth is 0:27:26.956 --> 0:27:30.316 how we can equip the next generation with the tools 0:27:30.476 --> 0:27:37.636 they need to reach equality. In the next episode, I'm 0:27:37.676 --> 0:27:41.676 talking with Cherylyn Eiffel. We spoke on her last day 0:27:41.756 --> 0:27:46.316 as president of the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund, 0:27:46.796 --> 0:27:51.316 the country's leading civil rights law organization. Oh, if you're 0:27:51.316 --> 0:27:53.996 not daunted, you know something is very wrong with you 0:27:54.036 --> 0:27:56.996 and you're probably not right for this job. So yes, 0:27:57.276 --> 0:28:03.036 it is daunting, and I think it should be. Getting 0:28:03.076 --> 0:28:06.316 Even is a production of Pushkin Industries, and it's written 0:28:06.316 --> 0:28:10.436 and hosted by me Anita Hill. Is produced by Mola 0:28:10.476 --> 0:28:15.316 Board and Brittany Brown. Our editor is Sarah Kramer, our 0:28:15.356 --> 0:28:20.436 engineer is Amanda kay Wang, and our showrunner is Sasha Matthias. 0:28:21.756 --> 0:28:26.356 Luis Gara composed original music for the show. Our executive 0:28:26.356 --> 0:28:31.956 producers are Mia Lobel and Letal Malad. Our Director of 0:28:31.996 --> 0:28:38.836 Development is Justine Lane. At Pushkin, Thanks to Heather Fane, 0:28:38.916 --> 0:28:45.836 Carly Migliori, Jason Gambrel, Julia Barton, John Schnarz, and Jacob Weisberg. 0:28:46.556 --> 0:28:50.916 You can find me on Twitter at Anita Hill and 0:28:51.076 --> 0:28:55.556 on Facebook at Anita Hill. You can find Pushkin on 0:28:55.716 --> 0:29:00.076 all social platforms at pushkin Pods, and you can sign 0:29:00.236 --> 0:29:04.516 up for our newsletter at pushkin dot fm. If you 0:29:04.596 --> 0:29:09.116 love this show and others from Pushkin industry, consider subscribe 0:29:09.396 --> 0:29:13.036 to Pushkin Plus. Subscribe to Pushkin Plus and you can 0:29:13.156 --> 0:29:17.636 hear Getting Even and other Pushkin shows add free and 0:29:17.796 --> 0:29:22.636 receive exclusive bonus episodes. Sign up on the Getting Even 0:29:22.676 --> 0:29:28.436 show page in Apple Podcasts or at pushkin dot fm. 0:29:28.476 --> 0:29:33.156 To find more Pushkin podcasts. 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