1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio. 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: I want to fail. I'd rather choose very very difficult 3 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:11,880 Speaker 1: things and have to be resilient. If I don't make 4 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: it right, then choose mediocre goals. So it wasn't always 5 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 1: about swimming. It was about living the biggest life I 6 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 1: can live. I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is You and 7 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: Me Both, where I get into some of today's biggest 8 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 1: questions with people that I admire. You know, I'm always 9 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: interested in where people get their resilience, because look, everybody 10 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: gets knocked down in life. You know, some get knocked 11 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 1: down more than once. And the question really is, as 12 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: my mother used to tell me on a regular basis, 13 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: it's not whether you get knocked down, is whether you 14 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: get back up. Today, I'm talking to three resilient guests, 15 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 1: Diana and Naiad, who you just heard, you know, in 16 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: she became the first person ever to swim from Cuba 17 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: to Florida without a shark cage. She swam for fifty 18 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 1: three hours. She faced incredible dangers like lethal box jellyfish attacks, 19 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: gulf stream currents, exhaustion, delirium, and she did it all 20 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:23,119 Speaker 1: when she was sixty four years old. I'm also going 21 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: to be talking to Angela Duckworth. Angela is a psychologist 22 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: and the writer of a terrific book, a New York 23 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: Times bestseller called Grit, The Power of Passion and Perseverance. 24 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: And she's going to explain to us where she got 25 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 1: her passion for studying grit and resilience. But first, writer 26 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: and comedian Sarah Cooper. Now, if this were any other comedian, 27 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 1: I'd want to play a clip of their work for you, 28 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 1: But I don't think that's going to help us here, 29 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: because Sarah Cooper is famous not for what she does 30 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 1: with her own words, but what she does with the 31 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: words of Donald Trump. She appears in videos where she 32 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 1: is lip sinking the exact words that came out of 33 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: Donald Trump's mouse in his public statements. She became an 34 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: Internet sensation, and I was just totally blown away by 35 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 1: how in her words his words could be understood as 36 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 1: even more incoherent and frankly unbelievable. Now, before she started 37 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: doing that, she wrote two books based on her time 38 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 1: working in corporate America. In she wrote one Hundred Tricks 39 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 1: to Appear Smart in Meetings and two years later, How 40 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:49,639 Speaker 1: to Be Successful Without Hurting Men's feelings, non threatening leadership 41 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: strategies for women, and you know, obviously I wish that 42 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: had come out sooner. She has a Netflix comedy special 43 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: that will be out later this fall, and she's working 44 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: on a television series for CBS. Why include Sarah Cooper 45 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 1: in an episode about resilience? Well, for starters, it takes 46 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: a lot of resilience to listen to Donald Trump over 47 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:17,119 Speaker 1: and over and over, and more importantly, her videos make 48 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: us laugh and help us all to stay resilient during 49 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: an incredibly tough time. I am delighted to have her 50 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 1: on the podcast. I have to say, Sarah that you 51 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: and your humor has gotten me through some tough days. 52 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: So I have to start by thinking you. You know, 53 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: you came to my attention, as you did I think 54 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 1: to the rest of the world initially by your videos 55 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: that were lip sinking art President, and it was so brilliant, 56 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: so extraordinarily on point, and I'm interested, how did you 57 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: get started doing that? I mean, where did that idea 58 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 1: even come from? Sarah? You know, it really came from 59 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: a combination of being on TikTok and seeing people doing 60 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: lip sinking, and then also just watching our president sort 61 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 1: of fumble his way through all of these press briefings 62 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 1: and these Coronavirus Task Force meetings, and I was immediately 63 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: reminded of being in corporate America and just watching usually 64 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:31,720 Speaker 1: men kind of you know, talk their way through situations 65 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,600 Speaker 1: when they actually haven't said anything at all. And so 66 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 1: I was just really fascinated by the words because the 67 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 1: words meant nothing, and yet people were nodding and agreeing. 68 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 1: And so it was really out of a little bit 69 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: of jealousy because I would love to be able to 70 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 1: get away with just saying nothing and having people think 71 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: that I'm brilliant. You know, that would just be amazing. Um. 72 00:04:57,520 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 1: And so I really didn't set out to to be 73 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: at an impersonator of this guy. I didn't. I was 74 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 1: really more like, could I get away with that? In 75 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:08,119 Speaker 1: One way to figure out if I could get away 76 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:11,799 Speaker 1: with it is to just take exactly what he's saying, 77 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:15,040 Speaker 1: the exact audio clip hasn't been changed at all, and 78 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 1: see what it feels like to have those words come 79 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 1: out of my mouth. How would Sarah Cooper act if 80 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:25,239 Speaker 1: she could just be in a meeting and uh, saying 81 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 1: absolutely nothing? And um? It really I think for a 82 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: lot of people brought to the forefront what everyone's been feeling. 83 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 1: But we've been gaslighted into thinking that we're the crazy 84 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:38,719 Speaker 1: ones because everyone thinks this is fine. And once you 85 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 1: take away that suit and the podium and the presidential 86 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: seal and all the people agreeing with him, and you're 87 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 1: just left with me in my sweatshirt being, you know, 88 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: saying I'm going to form a committee and the committee 89 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 1: is going to be really great. Um you realize okay, yeah, no, 90 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:58,039 Speaker 1: he's not saying anything. And that's really where it started. 91 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:04,359 Speaker 1: I am curious. Did you expect the overwhelming tsunami of 92 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 1: a response once you got started? I didn't. I mean 93 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 1: I made a few of them, really short clips at first, 94 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 1: and people thought they were fine and good, but really, 95 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: I mean when I made the first one that went viral, 96 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: I didn't realize that it would go so viral. But 97 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: then beyond that, I just kept getting good material and 98 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: I just kept making more videos and it just became 99 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:30,599 Speaker 1: this sort of unstoppable thing that changed my life and 100 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:34,599 Speaker 1: changed my career. And you know, I'm literally in l 101 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 1: A right now, sitting in Maya Rudolph's office because I'm 102 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: on the set basically of my Netflix special. Because of 103 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 1: all of this, it really just took off in a 104 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: way that I had no idea. I had sort of 105 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 1: given up my entertainment dreams, to be honest with you, 106 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: because I wrote these books, they didn't really do that well. 107 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 1: I would I would say, you know, The Hunt, my 108 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 1: first book, came out a month before the election, and 109 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 1: you know, any chance for any press that I was 110 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: ever going to get was just completely overshadowed. But you know, 111 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: I would say it was probably a hard election for 112 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: your election for me because in my book, I mean 113 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: for many reasons. But yeah, So just just to have 114 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 1: this resurgence of interest in the books and this idea 115 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: that oh wow, maybe I actually will have an entertainment 116 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 1: career has just been amazing. Does this identification that you 117 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: now have with lip syncing Trump, does it make you 118 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: feel different at all when you're speaking in your own voice? 119 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: Are you still, you know, in your worst nightmares, still 120 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:40,679 Speaker 1: hearing his voice? In some way? I get this asked 121 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: us a lot because I do have to listen to 122 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 1: him over and over again, so you would think his 123 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 1: voice would get stuck in my head, but it just doesn't. 124 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 1: Images get stuck in my head. Images and feelings. You know, 125 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: those things will bring me back and they will get stuck. 126 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: But audio sound goes in one ear and out the other. 127 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: So thankfully that doesn't happen to me. My husband, on 128 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: the other hand, gets very very very annoyed having to 129 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 1: hear this over and over again. So I don't blame him. 130 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 1: I mean I don't either. The only thing that worries 131 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: me sometimes is is people will send me clips and 132 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 1: they're like, you have to do this, when you have 133 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: to do this when, And sometimes I'll listen and I'll 134 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: be like, oh, I see what he was trying to say. 135 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 1: So I'm like, wait, wait now, now I understand you 136 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 1: know what wait stop, you know you can't do this anymore. 137 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: This is infecting you. But I want to go back 138 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 1: to before you started lip syncing Trump, before you put 139 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: that on TikTok. You know you were using your comedy 140 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:43,839 Speaker 1: even before that to talk about social issues. Give our 141 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 1: listeners a little bit of a bio here. I mean, what, 142 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 1: as you said earlier, made you feel passionate about entertaining 143 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 1: and acting and comedy and what is it you wanted 144 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:58,559 Speaker 1: to do with that? Well? I always just love making 145 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: people laugh, and I think that just comes from I'm 146 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: the youngest child. I kind of was the one who, 147 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: you know, if there was ever any tension in our family, 148 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: I was the one who sort of diffused it with 149 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:11,439 Speaker 1: some humor or jokes or whatever. And it was just like, 150 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 1: if I could make people feel calm again and feel happy, 151 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 1: it just made me feel I think useful, you know, 152 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: I think it just made me. It just gave me 153 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 1: a purpose, like I can make people feel comfortable, and 154 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: for better or worse, I will say that. You know, 155 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,319 Speaker 1: it can backfire in terms of if your goal is 156 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: always just to make people feel comfortable, you can forget 157 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 1: about yourself and you can forget about hey, well maybe 158 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 1: you're not happy right now, you know, and maybe that's 159 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: not your role right now. And so it's I think 160 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: making people laugh has sort of been the number one thing. 161 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 1: And then just realizing I have a lot of things 162 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:45,080 Speaker 1: I want to share my opinion on is kind of 163 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:49,439 Speaker 1: the second thing that is exciting about entertainment and satire 164 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 1: in particular. I love just because you can have a 165 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 1: message without feeling preachy, you know, like with non threatening 166 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 1: leadership strategies for women, I wasn't telling women, hey, you're 167 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: doing something wrong, or you're saying something wrong, or you 168 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 1: should do this or do this. I was simply holding 169 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,439 Speaker 1: up a mirror and saying, this is what happens, this 170 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 1: is what I do. Sometimes I minimize myself in rooms. 171 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 1: Sometimes I add way too many exclamation points in my 172 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 1: emails just because I want to feel, you know, like 173 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 1: I'm being real nice um And and it's just like 174 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: holding a mirror up and and people write me and 175 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: they'll say, you know what, I realized I do that. 176 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 1: I kind of ask a question when I want to 177 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: make a statement, you know, I do that, and I 178 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 1: realized I don't want to do that anymore. And they 179 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: were able to realize that on their own without me saying, hey, 180 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,079 Speaker 1: don't do this anymore. And so that's what That's kind 181 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 1: of the position that I enjoy being in, is that 182 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: I can make people laugh. I can make them think 183 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:43,959 Speaker 1: if they'd like to think. I can make them learn 184 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: something and change if they would like to do that. 185 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 1: But other than that, I've given them a moment of 186 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: levity that, you know, maybe they wouldn't have had before. 187 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 1: You know, when I think about humor, I often think 188 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 1: about it as being one of the best tools we 189 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 1: have for resilience, I mean, define the human in even 190 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: the worst situation. To try to, you know, connect on 191 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:09,079 Speaker 1: that level with people. It must be part of the 192 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 1: motivation that you had and still have that. You know, Look, 193 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: we're going through a hard time in our country right now, 194 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 1: and what keeps you laughing despite everything that is, you know, 195 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: happening around us. I think I just go through waves 196 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 1: where you know, after the election, I was just so 197 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:31,080 Speaker 1: distraught for months. I couldn't even write this book because 198 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 1: my publisher wanted me to write something about women, but 199 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: I was so angry that I was just like, no, 200 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 1: there's nothing funny about this. There's nothing funny about this. 201 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:45,679 Speaker 1: I'm just angry. And I think eventually I was able 202 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:48,440 Speaker 1: to sort of find a way to the humor, just 203 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 1: of like, look at all these rules, Look at all 204 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: these these these things we tell each other where this 205 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: don't wear this, smile, don't smile, wear your hair like this, 206 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 1: don't do this, don't It's like, you can't follow all 207 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 1: these rules. We can't. It's in possible. And I mean 208 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 1: that was one of the things, you know, with your campaign. 209 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 1: I was so angry that they said you needed to smile. 210 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 1: I was like, why does she need to smile? She 211 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 1: doesn't need to smile, Like, let her smile if she 212 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 1: wants to smile, and she doesn't want to smile, she 213 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:17,839 Speaker 1: doesn't have to smile. How does that sound? You know 214 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: what I mean? I was so angry at that, because 215 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:22,599 Speaker 1: that's how they get you. That's how they get this. 216 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:24,839 Speaker 1: Oh she's not authentic. Well maybe it's because you told 217 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 1: her to smile when she didn't want to smile. Maybe 218 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 1: that's why she's not authentic to you, you know. And 219 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:32,959 Speaker 1: it's like this whole idea of authenticity and being true 220 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: to yourself, and yet there's this world set up that 221 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 1: you have to fit into. And so wait, how am 222 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 1: I supposed to be true to myself when there's this 223 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: world that I have to fit into and play their 224 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: games when I don't want to, you know. And so 225 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 1: I was able to find the humor and that of 226 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: just thinking about it and realizing, Okay, all of these 227 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 1: rules in a book, realize you can't follow them. That's 228 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:55,839 Speaker 1: the joke, you know what, That's just a joke. Yeah, 229 00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:00,200 Speaker 1: we're taking a quick break. Stay with us. You know. 230 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 1: I keep thinking Sarah about you know, how resilience is 231 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 1: such a key part of anybody's life. I mean, we 232 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:10,839 Speaker 1: all get knocked down. We all have to figure out 233 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: how to get back up. And when you think about, 234 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 1: you know, the work that you've done and your commitment 235 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: despite the setbacks, what got you up in the morning. 236 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: You know, you said, well, you tried to be in comedy, 237 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 1: that didn't work, But what kept you going? You know? 238 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 1: I just I feel very blessed to have a father 239 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 1: that just instilled in me gratefulness, and so I just 240 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 1: even when things weren't going well, I'll tell you, like 241 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:41,319 Speaker 1: when how to be successful without hurting men's feelings came out, 242 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 1: I went to a book signing. Two people showed up. 243 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: You know, I had situations like that, but I had 244 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 1: my husband there and he was still taking pictures of me, 245 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 1: like it was a big deal. And it wasn't a 246 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: big deal at all. No one was there, but it 247 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 1: was just like, no, I still have a book. I 248 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 1: did a book. I made a book. You know, like 249 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: just looking at the small things and just being appreciative 250 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 1: of those small things just help me sort of keep 251 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: going and just knowing. My favorite quote is from Vanilla Sky, 252 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: and it's basically, every passing minute is another chance to 253 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 1: turn it all around. That. I just love that every 254 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: minute you can do something different, You can choose to 255 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 1: do something different, you can choose to try something. And 256 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 1: that's what I did with these TikTok's. I was just 257 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 1: trying something. I didn't know if it was gonna work. 258 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: And so knowing you have that opportunity to just try something, 259 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 1: it helps me because I never feel like I'm stuck 260 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: and I can't do anything. I know there's always something 261 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 1: I can do, There's always something I can try. You know, 262 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 1: I really relate to that. I think that for many people, 263 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: your TikTok videos um were lifelines, um, you know, the 264 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: kind of hope that things can get better and can change. 265 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 1: You know, you came along and you you kind of 266 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: helped to strip it all down and explain without doing 267 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: anything other than repeating his words. You gave people the 268 00:14:57,680 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: idea like, well, I don't have to listen to this, 269 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: I don't have to leave that. And that was a 270 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 1: huge contribution to resilience, the resilience of individuals, and I 271 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: hope the resilience of our country. Not to put to 272 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 1: find a point on it, but I just can't thank 273 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: you enough for what you've done, and I'm so in 274 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: your corner. I can't wait to see your program and 275 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: see what happens to you next. Well, thank you. I'm 276 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 1: I'm eternally grateful for you. Just your commitment and your dedication, 277 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: and you're just unwavering focus on what you think is 278 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 1: important and what you know in your heart to be true. 279 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 1: Has always been an inspiration to me and will continue 280 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: to be an inspiration to me. So I just want 281 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: to say how honored I am and how appreciative I 282 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 1: am of you. Thank you. Since my conversation with Sarah, 283 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: President Trump, as we all know, has tested positive for 284 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: COVID nineteen, Ben hospitalized return earned. Sarah hasn't put out 285 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: any new videos yet, and I wanted to check in 286 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 1: with her to see what she makes of this latest 287 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 1: plot twist. In light of recent events, I wanted to 288 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: check in with you again. Your videos do such an 289 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: excellent job of highlighting how absurd many of Trump's statements are. 290 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 1: But over the last few weeks, his statements and his 291 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: actions around COVID nineteen have not been so much ridiculous 292 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: as actually dangerous. He's out there telling people he understands 293 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: the virus. Now and it's not something to be afraid 294 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 1: of and refusing to participate remotely in the next presidential debate. 295 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 1: What goes through your mind when you hear him say 296 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 1: these things, Well, it starts to make me reconsider all 297 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: of the videos I've been making, just because at this 298 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 1: point it seems like there might be something really wrong 299 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 1: with him. You know, I've always seen him as someone 300 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 1: who is very sinister and calculated, but at this point, 301 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 1: and I think Nancy Pelosi brought up twenty fifth Monument 302 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: today too, but it does feel like there's something genuinely 303 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 1: wrong with him, And so I it's almost like, do 304 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 1: you make fun of someone who has some sort of 305 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:15,159 Speaker 1: problem that you don't know what that problem is? But 306 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:18,360 Speaker 1: it is also so dangerous that I don't want to 307 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:21,879 Speaker 1: contribute to the propaganda that you're spreading. So it is 308 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 1: a weird time for my particular kind of satire because 309 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,679 Speaker 1: I want to highlight how insane a lot of the 310 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:32,880 Speaker 1: things he's saying. But if he's actually insane, and he's 311 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 1: actually saying things that are are going to genuinely hurt 312 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 1: people and inspire other people to hurt other people, and 313 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 1: I don't want to, you know, spread that message. I 314 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: agree with you. We're at a different point now. It 315 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 1: is scary to think that we have still three or 316 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 1: four weeks something like that. I mean, it's it's a 317 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 1: very tense time of just trying to get to that 318 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 1: election and and hopefully see the light at the end 319 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 1: of the tunnel. I agree with you. I mean, the 320 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: tension just seems to build. I was talking to a 321 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:04,399 Speaker 1: good friend of mine who's a doctor, and she was 322 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 1: saying she sees so many people now it's just exploded 323 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: in terms of you know, her patients saying that they're anxious, 324 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: they're agitated, they're depressed, and they link it to this election. 325 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: They just are literally overcome by what they're experiencing when 326 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:29,199 Speaker 1: they watch Trump. But I think it is a, you know, 327 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 1: a real sign of resilience that more and more people 328 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: are voting early, more and more people are speaking out, 329 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 1: more and more people and the press and elsewhere are 330 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 1: calling him out. So, you know, maybe that's a good 331 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:47,200 Speaker 1: sign that assuming we get through this election and we 332 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 1: know retire him, we can kind of pull together again. 333 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:56,879 Speaker 1: And I'm praying for that, me too, Sarah, me too. 334 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 1: Keep an eye out for Sarah's upcoming comedy special. It's 335 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: called Sarah Cooper Everything's Fine, and it comes out on 336 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:18,880 Speaker 1: Netflix October. One of the reasons I'm interested in resilience 337 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:21,640 Speaker 1: is that it's not just something that you're born with 338 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 1: or you aren't. And I've learned a lot about that 339 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 1: from research that is being done about how to cultivate 340 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 1: resilience in ourselves and others. And you know, nothing is 341 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 1: more important than helping kids be more resilient, especially right 342 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: now with so much uncertainty in their world. So that's 343 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,400 Speaker 1: why I'm looking forward to talking with Angela Duckworth. She's 344 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:48,680 Speaker 1: a psychologist, she's a MacArthur genius. She's the writer of Grit, 345 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:53,959 Speaker 1: the power of passion and perseverance. Grit. Actually, that's one 346 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,880 Speaker 1: of my favorite words. You have been called gritty. I've 347 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 1: had a feral streep in other people, pretty gritty moments. 348 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:03,879 Speaker 1: You know, you're very gritty. Um, But I guess I 349 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: want to start with having you explain what grit is. 350 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:13,199 Speaker 1: When I talk about grit, I mean this combination of 351 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:20,360 Speaker 1: passion and perseverance for especially long term and personally meaningful goals. Um. 352 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: And I say passion and perseverance because it's not just 353 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:26,719 Speaker 1: you know, working hard and being tenacious, I mean that 354 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: is part of grit, and I think that's where the 355 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:31,439 Speaker 1: overlap with resilience, you know, the topic of this show. 356 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 1: But grit, unlike resilience, means that you're passionate about it. It 357 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 1: It resonates with your values, it interests you. You feel 358 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:40,919 Speaker 1: like a kid when you're doing it. So perseverance and 359 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,719 Speaker 1: passion for long term goals turns out to be not 360 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 1: at all correlated with talent or intelligence, but very predictive 361 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 1: of long term achievement. Tell us a little bit about 362 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 1: your own life and if you can reflect on what 363 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 1: brought you to this particular subject. Well, we may or 364 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 1: may not have this in common. But I was certainly 365 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 1: raised in a family that was dominated by my father's 366 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:08,120 Speaker 1: obsession with achievement. He really was like obsessed with the 367 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 1: outliers in human accomplishment. And and then in our own family, 368 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 1: he would make comparisons of my sister, my brother, and me, 369 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 1: you know, who was doing well in the in the 370 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 1: horse race of achievement. I by the way, I'm not 371 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: recommending this, I'm just describing my childhood. Um. And so 372 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 1: when I grew up, I wondered whether there was something 373 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: else other than our our maybe our innate talent, that 374 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,920 Speaker 1: that might determine, you know, what we might achieve. And 375 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 1: I think that's what led me to the study of 376 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 1: grit um. I was also, by the way, a teacher 377 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 1: classroom teacher in New York City and San Francisco public 378 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:45,400 Speaker 1: schools for several years. And when I saw my students 379 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: at the beginning of the year, it was clear that 380 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 1: some of them had, you know, more of a facility 381 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:52,879 Speaker 1: for math, which is what I taught. But I was 382 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 1: very surprised at the end of the year that the 383 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 1: students who had really learned the most, you know, weren't 384 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 1: always the ones who were you know, quite obviously bright 385 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 1: at the beginning. And and so much of it was 386 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:06,919 Speaker 1: a kind of dedication, a stained interest and effort in 387 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 1: spite of setbacks, which is I think the heart of resilience. Well, 388 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 1: I think there are similarities between our fathers. My father 389 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 1: was absolutely set on making sure that I did as 390 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 1: well as I could in school. I would bring home, 391 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 1: you know, straight a's, and he'd say, you must go 392 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,639 Speaker 1: to an easy school. It was his way of, I think, 393 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 1: trying to motivate me. And it's the only way he 394 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: knew to express his hopes was through this kind of 395 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 1: competitive comparative approach that I believe, you know, fathers like 396 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:46,359 Speaker 1: ours actually thought was a way of showing love and 397 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:52,200 Speaker 1: appreciation to keep pushing their children and luckily for us, 398 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 1: their daughters, not just their sons. Yes, and you know 399 00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 1: when you think about those students that you taught, because 400 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:05,640 Speaker 1: I've read about how you began to think through, what 401 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,439 Speaker 1: was it that made some kids successful even if they 402 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,879 Speaker 1: didn't start with the greatest understanding of math or some 403 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 1: other subject, and other kids maybe fade who looked like 404 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: they had potential. What did that then lead you to 405 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,360 Speaker 1: decide to do well? First I was frustrated with them, um, 406 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: And then, as any halfway decent teacher would be, you 407 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 1: realize that you're the problem, right, So at first I 408 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 1: was like, why aren't they learning my my beautiful lesson plan? 409 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: Like how come it's not turning out the way I 410 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: wanted to? And quickly my frustration my students turned into 411 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: frustration with myself because I realized it was a limitation 412 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,239 Speaker 1: of me as a teacher that I wasn't accessing, I 413 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 1: wasn't creating an on ramp to what we were doing, 414 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 1: And when I got frustrated, I eventually decided that my 415 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:53,400 Speaker 1: tactics were incredibly ham fested. Like I mean, I tried 416 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:55,400 Speaker 1: to be nice, but I just like, you know, if 417 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: you could just you know, put more effort in, you'll 418 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 1: be successful. I mean, that doesn't work. So what I 419 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 1: decided to do is change my career trajectory a little bit, 420 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,360 Speaker 1: um or a lot, I guess, and become a psychological scientist. 421 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 1: It's not until I think we can understand why is 422 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:13,360 Speaker 1: it that when a child gives up like they do, 423 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 1: like what is going on in the millisecond before they 424 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,639 Speaker 1: put their pencil down and stop paying attention to what 425 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 1: they're doing? Like what happens? And I realized that we 426 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:26,399 Speaker 1: needed more science on you know, motivation and interests and 427 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 1: effort in order that teachers and parents, um, by the way, 428 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 1: could do more than just the kind of like well 429 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 1: intentioned but usually ineffectual sermonizing UM at least that I 430 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,640 Speaker 1: was doing. So when you went back to school, how 431 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 1: did you actually construct a program to look at this 432 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:48,159 Speaker 1: and pursue it as a professional academic interest. So I 433 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: was a late bloomer in the sense of coming to 434 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,199 Speaker 1: graduate school. UM in my you know whatever, fourth decorade 435 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:55,919 Speaker 1: of life. But I knew what I wanted to study. 436 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 1: I was like, I know exactly what I'm here to 437 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 1: figure out. I wanted to understand the psychology of young 438 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:04,679 Speaker 1: people in moments of frustration and moments of self doubt. 439 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:06,680 Speaker 1: And then I wanted to figure out, you know, what 440 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 1: turns things such that insecurity becomes confidence when the frustration 441 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 1: becomes bearable. And I apprenticed to a very famous psychological scientist, 442 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: Marty Seligman, who basically is the leading figure um or 443 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 1: one of at least in resilience. And I'll tell you 444 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 1: maybe one insight that gives you a sense of how 445 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 1: scientists like figure things out like this. You know, when 446 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 1: you study something scientifically, you want to make a comparison. 447 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:34,919 Speaker 1: So if you want to study resilience, you want to 448 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,439 Speaker 1: find examples of resilience, but also examples of um, you know, 449 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: non resilience right or or giving up during difficulty. And 450 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 1: Marty did exactly that. When he was in graduate school 451 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 1: he studied animals. He studied dogs, for example, and he 452 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:54,120 Speaker 1: discovered that when animals are resilient, it is in part 453 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,199 Speaker 1: because they have control. Um. So, if an animal is 454 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 1: experiencing control over their adversity, even if the adversity is 455 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: in the case of the dogs he was studying, like 456 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 1: mild electric shocks, I mean really painful. The control makes 457 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:12,639 Speaker 1: all the difference when animals don't have control over adversity. 458 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:16,439 Speaker 1: It's what he coined um as learned helplessness. And so 459 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:18,880 Speaker 1: I think the basic idea of the scientific method when 460 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:23,120 Speaker 1: applied to things like resilience is you know, make systematic comparisons, 461 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 1: fine examples of what you're looking for, fine examples of 462 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 1: the opposite, and then you know, systematically work your way 463 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 1: through to kind of figure out what's going on underneath 464 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: the surface. Everything you've said obviously has implications for parenting. 465 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 1: How is your research impacted your own parenting? So, practically speaking, 466 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 1: I think in terms of resilience, the most important thing 467 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 1: I learned in my research was that, you know, left 468 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 1: to their own devices, young people will shy away from 469 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,120 Speaker 1: hard things, like it's way more fun to win than 470 00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 1: to lose. Um it's way more fun to get the 471 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 1: right answer then the wrong answer. And I could see 472 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:04,879 Speaker 1: my kids like shy away from hard things. So we 473 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 1: made a rule in our family and we call it 474 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,159 Speaker 1: the hard thing rule, UM, and we said everybody in 475 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 1: this family, including mom and dad, has to do a 476 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,479 Speaker 1: hard thing. UM. We instituted this when the girls are 477 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,639 Speaker 1: about kindergarten age. And the hard thing world had three parts. 478 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 1: One is that a hard thing is something that requires practice, UM, 479 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 1: like really trying to get better at something, you know, 480 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 1: with feedback and um, and not all the feedback is 481 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 1: going to be positive. The second thing about the hard 482 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 1: thing is that you can't quit in the middle. So 483 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,440 Speaker 1: if you've made a commitment to a track coach or 484 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,959 Speaker 1: a piano teacher, and you said you've done you know 485 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: you're gonna do something for two months, then then you 486 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 1: have to honor that commitment. And then the third thing, 487 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: and I think this is so important. You know, I'm 488 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: of Chinese heritage, my parents immigrated UM in the fifties, 489 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,120 Speaker 1: and I don't really believe in tiger parenting. I think 490 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 1: the third part is the most important part, which is that, UM, 491 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 1: you get to choose your hard thing yourself. Nobody can 492 00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:58,880 Speaker 1: tell you what your hard thing is. And I let 493 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 1: my five year old we I should say my husband 494 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 1: and I. We let them choose even when they were 495 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,119 Speaker 1: in kindergarten. I mean it was multiple choice because like 496 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 1: one year Lucy said she wanted to ride horses and 497 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 1: I was like that not on the list. So anyway, 498 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: I I think that was all informed by science. I 499 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 1: love that idea, you know, giving them some control over 500 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 1: the hard thing they choose, but then they have to 501 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:23,879 Speaker 1: stick with that hard thing and they have to be 502 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 1: willing to take the ups and the downs that come 503 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 1: from trying something that's hard. And you know, I think 504 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 1: about hard things that I've had to do. I mean 505 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 1: running for office was really hard. Looked like it the object. 506 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:37,199 Speaker 1: It was hard. It was hard the first time I 507 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,719 Speaker 1: tried it and never had done it for myself before 508 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 1: and had to practice and practice and learn and learn 509 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: and it you know, it was a passion and I 510 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: had to persevere, win or lose. And I assume you've 511 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 1: had to do hard things, like what are you know 512 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 1: one or two of the hard things you had to 513 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 1: deal with? You know, I told you that. My dad 514 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 1: was like, you know, how how how smart are is 515 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 1: this person? House? Well, one advantage I will just say 516 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 1: of of never thinking of yourself as the smartest person 517 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,239 Speaker 1: in the room is that like, wow, you are, at 518 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 1: least for me, I think the way I interpreted that, 519 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 1: I was like, I'm going to be the hardest working 520 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: person here, like like nobody's going to outwork me, is 521 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 1: going to outwork me, right, And you know, I think 522 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 1: that has been a certain kind of confidence. Like, you know, 523 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: just the other day, I was in a conversation with 524 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: Danny Kneman, who's another hero of mine. You won the 525 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: Nobel Prize, and I think he's the best living psychologist 526 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 1: there is today. And we're having this conversation and I 527 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 1: was trying to give him an idea about like the 528 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 1: psychology of attention, and about twenty minutes in, he was 529 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 1: like playing chess with Gary casper Off. He was like 530 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:44,960 Speaker 1: checked me, and I was just he was like, he's 531 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 1: like this idea is like full of holes. It isn't work. 532 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 1: And I remember thinking, wow, like I am not as 533 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 1: smart as any condoman when it comes to psychology. Uh, 534 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 1: And I think I said something like that, but you know, 535 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 1: I wasn't so afraid. I never thought of myself as 536 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: that way. So I just said like, well, you know, 537 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 1: I would like to talk about this more, but I 538 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 1: think I gonna need a week to like on it, 539 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 1: to cover gather my wits, make some more notes, read 540 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 1: some more. You were fierce in your desire to you know, 541 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 1: keep going. Maybe take a deep breath and come back. 542 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 1: I have so enjoyed talking to you, and I hope 543 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 1: this will be the first of many conversations because I 544 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 1: am fascinated what you do. Thank you so much for 545 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 1: talking with me, and say a load of your family, 546 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 1: Say a load of those two daughters. Angela's book is 547 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 1: called Grit. She's a co founder of Character Lab, which 548 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 1: helps classrooms across the country create more resilient kids, and 549 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: you can learn more about her and her research at 550 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 1: Angela Duckworths dot com. I first heard about Diana and 551 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: Naiad really along time ago because she had this amazing 552 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 1: success record of swimming around the island of Manhattan across 553 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 1: Lake Ontario. You know, she really was somebody who was 554 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 1: of my vintage and was doing heroic, difficult things in 555 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 1: the water. She took time out to be a sports broadcaster, 556 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 1: and then I would see her covering sports, including the Olympics, 557 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 1: and it looked like she was, you know, done with 558 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 1: her own competitive swimming until she decided to try again. 559 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 1: She had tried to swim from Cuba to Florida the 560 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 1: first time when she was twenty eight. When she was 561 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 1: sixty one, she decided to try again, and again and again, 562 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:47,520 Speaker 1: and then at age sixty four she wanted to try 563 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 1: once more, and she succeeded on her fifth try. That 564 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 1: should give everybody a kind of boost about what's possible. 565 00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 1: As you'll hear her zest for life puts the rest 566 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 1: of us to shame. I think about your amazing career 567 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: and how you really took on the challenge of long 568 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 1: distance swimming. What drew you to it, because it's such 569 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 1: a unique sport. You know. There are two layers to 570 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 1: the answer to that question. One is um I was 571 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 1: born in New York City, but by the time I 572 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 1: was in second grade, so you're seven years old, I 573 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 1: was in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, with a beautiful, warm ocean 574 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 1: right there, and I was good at swimming. I had 575 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: a way of feeling the water and going through the 576 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 1: water in a strong, fast way, So of course I 577 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 1: wanted that. But honestly, way above that. I don't know why, Hillary, 578 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 1: but I got the idea very early before the age 579 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 1: of ten, that this whole thing was gonna go by 580 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 1: very quickly, that I better not waste any time. I 581 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 1: may not be the best at what I do, but 582 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 1: I want to live up to my potential. I want 583 00:32:57,520 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 1: to help people the best I can. I want to 584 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 1: be the best I am intellectually physically. So I've been 585 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: lucky to have a lot of attributes of energy that 586 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 1: helped me get up very early and live a gung 587 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 1: ho pressive kind of life all day long and go 588 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 1: to sleep every night saying who I just couldn't have 589 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 1: done anymore with that day? But I guess I'm getting 590 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 1: around to saying it wasn't and it it's still is 591 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:28,200 Speaker 1: not just about swimming. I wasn't necessarily driven to I've 592 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: got to swim this, and I've got to be a swimmer. 593 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 1: I was and I am all that, But it's more 594 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,640 Speaker 1: what can I do with this one? As Mary Oliver 595 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 1: put it, wild and precious life of mine? I want 596 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 1: to fail. I'd rather choose very very difficult things and 597 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: have to be resilient if I don't make it, and 598 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 1: and have to be humble if I don't make it, 599 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 1: then choose mediocre goals. So it wasn't always about swimming. 600 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 1: It was about living the biggest life I can live. Amen, 601 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 1: And you know, part of what I'm interested in is 602 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 1: there are a lot of people who say to themselves, Wow, 603 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 1: I'm gonna do something that is really big and it's 604 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 1: going to fill me up and I'm going to make 605 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 1: a mark. But then there are those who actually do it. 606 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 1: And you know, I've read your fabulous autobiography and just 607 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 1: reading about the training that you subjected yourself to was exhausting. 608 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,919 Speaker 1: Describe that training regimen because it shows so clearly what 609 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,920 Speaker 1: it takes to say, Okay, I want to do this, 610 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 1: but hey, here's what I have to make sure I 611 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,799 Speaker 1: can do in order to be able to achieve that. 612 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 1: What does that actually look like day to day? Well, 613 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's tough. If you're gonna swim for 614 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 1: let's say, what might be ostensibly fifty four hours across 615 00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: Cuba to Florida NonStop, never allowed to touch the boat, 616 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 1: what are you gonna do to get ready for that. Well, 617 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,080 Speaker 1: you're not gonna go swim fifty four hours. You might 618 00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,720 Speaker 1: as well go do the real thing. So you start doing. 619 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 1: You're not in shape yet seven and eight hours swims, 620 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:07,400 Speaker 1: And mind you, a swim like Manhattan Island is under 621 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 1: eight hours. Now later in the year, you're gonna be 622 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 1: up to twelve fourteen hours swims. You're lying in the 623 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 1: fetal position at night. You can't get up because you're 624 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 1: so darn exhausted. You can't get dinner. But you do 625 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,120 Speaker 1: get up the next day and you do fifteen hours. 626 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:26,880 Speaker 1: Then you're up to eighteen hours. Then you're up to 627 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,719 Speaker 1: twenty four hours, and that's a lot of lonely, you know, 628 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:35,640 Speaker 1: isolated time. This sport is a case of sensory deprivation. 629 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,560 Speaker 1: You don't see much. You're turning your head fifty five 630 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,480 Speaker 1: times a minute. You don't see anything but the side 631 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:45,239 Speaker 1: of the boat over here, and Bonnie, my intrepid you know, 632 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:49,839 Speaker 1: handler you dig down and get your mind disciplined and 633 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,319 Speaker 1: strong enough to make it through those lonely hours. So 634 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,320 Speaker 1: that's what it's about. Yeah, it's the shoulders, it's the body. 635 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 1: You've got to be a good swimmer, a strong swimmer. 636 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,359 Speaker 1: But more than anything is can the mind suffer and 637 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 1: concentrate and refuse to give up for all those hours? 638 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,400 Speaker 1: That's what it's about. We'll be back right after this 639 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:16,920 Speaker 1: quick break. Do you have any insights as to whether 640 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 1: that resolved that incredible resilience and grit how do you 641 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 1: evaluate the mix between kind of what's deep down inside 642 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 1: you or just plain hard work that it takes, you know, 643 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 1: as it learned. Is it something you can practice to achieve? 644 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:36,440 Speaker 1: How would you tell young people if there were a 645 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,960 Speaker 1: bunch of young people listening and they were wondering, well, 646 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 1: how I don't I don't know that I could ever 647 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,719 Speaker 1: do anything that brave or that big, but i'd like to. 648 00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:48,359 Speaker 1: How would you tell them to think about it? Yeah, 649 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 1: it's it's always, isn't it. It's the age old nature 650 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:55,920 Speaker 1: nurture conversation. So you know, I don't remember any particular 651 00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:58,120 Speaker 1: you know, light bulb that went off to say that's 652 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,360 Speaker 1: how I want to be, that's who I want to be. 653 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 1: So I do think there is a lot of a 654 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 1: genetic component, But I do believe that people all the 655 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:09,360 Speaker 1: world around have resolved. Now, it could be that they're 656 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,560 Speaker 1: not dreaming of you know, changing there. They're not Nelson 657 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 1: Mandela who wants to you know, change the entire fabric 658 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 1: of the future of the world. And now we we 659 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 1: view equality, um. But it could be that in their 660 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 1: particular community, that's the way they live and that's what 661 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,000 Speaker 1: they demand of their neighbors. And their family, And isn't 662 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,280 Speaker 1: that equally important. Don't we think the world gets changed 663 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:35,360 Speaker 1: one family and one neighborhood at a time. So I admire, 664 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:37,680 Speaker 1: and I'm sure you do too, all kinds of people 665 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 1: that the world will never hear of. You know, I 666 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 1: have a neighbor here in in my neighborhood in Los 667 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:48,680 Speaker 1: Angeles who lost her husband to cancer, and she was busy, well, um, 668 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,280 Speaker 1: somebody else had trouble in the neighborhood. And this woman 669 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,839 Speaker 1: who had very few resources, no time at all, three 670 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 1: kids on her hands, mourning her husband. She's the one 671 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 1: who went around all around the ebro to say, we 672 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,520 Speaker 1: got to help this other neighbor. She needs our help. 673 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,719 Speaker 1: And Naiad, you're the little star of the neighborhood. While 674 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 1: that's just great, but see your name here on the clipboard. 675 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 1: Every other Tuesday, you're gonna get dinner on their back porch, okay, 676 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 1: And it's not going to be Kentucky fried chicken. It's 677 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:19,239 Speaker 1: gonna be a vegetable and a dinner. And if you 678 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:21,560 Speaker 1: can't do it, get somebody else to do it, because 679 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:24,560 Speaker 1: for a year, we're gonna help her out. So I 680 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,360 Speaker 1: admire that woman as much as I admire Bill Gates, 681 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:31,280 Speaker 1: but I think that's a really important and very relatable point, 682 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:35,200 Speaker 1: is that not everybody's gonna, you know, swim long distance. Um, 683 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,240 Speaker 1: not everybody's going to be a star athlete or whatever 684 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:43,520 Speaker 1: else the comparison might be. But everybody can do something, 685 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:47,879 Speaker 1: and everybody can both overcome their own challenges and then 686 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,359 Speaker 1: help others to overcome the challenges that they face. And 687 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:54,960 Speaker 1: you know, how would you describe how your experience in 688 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:59,399 Speaker 1: long distance swimming has actually translated to how you meet 689 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:02,839 Speaker 1: challenge is in your life? Well? You know, I know 690 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:08,040 Speaker 1: that you know the story Hillary that I like. Unfortunately millions, 691 00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:12,640 Speaker 1: uh suffered sexual abuse as a young teen. Um My coach, 692 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,440 Speaker 1: the person who should have uh you know, put me 693 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:17,799 Speaker 1: up on a pedestal and helped send me out with 694 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:21,120 Speaker 1: character and with confidence into the world. He was an 695 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:24,640 Speaker 1: abuser and he really got a kick out of humiliating. 696 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,680 Speaker 1: And now I'm seventy and look at me, you know me, 697 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:31,480 Speaker 1: I'm pretty confident, I'm pretty happy. Uh, I'm I feel 698 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,080 Speaker 1: very fortunate at this life I've gotten to live. And 699 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:37,759 Speaker 1: on the other hand, still deep down, if I want 700 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:41,080 Speaker 1: to get real about it, uh, there is an imprint 701 00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:45,920 Speaker 1: from that humiliation that is still there, that that little girl, 702 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:50,160 Speaker 1: that young teen still can feel, the low self esteem 703 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 1: and the anger, the anger at myself for not throwing 704 00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:56,960 Speaker 1: him up against a wall and saying I'm going to 705 00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:59,719 Speaker 1: my mother and I'm going to the principle. Well, I 706 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:03,080 Speaker 1: think that, even though I'm older and wiser now and 707 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:06,120 Speaker 1: deal with it in a in a more holistic way, 708 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:11,360 Speaker 1: I think there was something of a resilience that told 709 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:14,680 Speaker 1: me right away, even while it was happening, I'm going 710 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 1: to survive this. I'm going to thrive through it. This 711 00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:21,319 Speaker 1: is not going to ruin my life. I won't let it. 712 00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:26,040 Speaker 1: I'm not going to go down. Boy, that's such a message, Diana, 713 00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:28,960 Speaker 1: that needs to be heard by so many young people 714 00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,200 Speaker 1: and not so young people. And the fact that you've 715 00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,000 Speaker 1: talked about it and you've written about it and you've 716 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:40,040 Speaker 1: made it a part of your overall message and mission, 717 00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:43,040 Speaker 1: because so many young people need to hear that. But 718 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:46,200 Speaker 1: this is an important part of you know who you 719 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:50,040 Speaker 1: are and what you've overcome, and what the source of 720 00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:55,120 Speaker 1: your resilience is, and just your determination, yes, that grit 721 00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:59,359 Speaker 1: to keep going and not look back in a way 722 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,879 Speaker 1: that pair lizes you but instead mobilizes you. Yeah, those 723 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,239 Speaker 1: are good words, paralyzed and mobilize. You know, I want 724 00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:10,280 Speaker 1: to switch gears to the oceans because nobody has spent 725 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:13,280 Speaker 1: more time in them than you have all over the world, 726 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:18,560 Speaker 1: and it's such a critical issue with the environment, with 727 00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:22,520 Speaker 1: climate change, and I know that you are really going 728 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:26,000 Speaker 1: to tackle this like you've tackled everything else. You know. 729 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:28,600 Speaker 1: One of the things I've heard that you're really going 730 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:32,560 Speaker 1: to focus on is single use plastics and what they're 731 00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:34,799 Speaker 1: doing to the ocean and what they're doing to the 732 00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:37,759 Speaker 1: you know, animals that live in the ocean. But talk 733 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:41,839 Speaker 1: a little bit about how, given your personal immersion in 734 00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:47,120 Speaker 1: the ocean, this new mission has arisen about what you 735 00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:50,319 Speaker 1: want to do to try to use your voice and 736 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:54,960 Speaker 1: use your experience to literally help save our our world oceans. Yeah, 737 00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:59,360 Speaker 1: I I guess you could say that I fell madly 738 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:04,040 Speaker 1: in low with planet Earth by being immersed in its oceans. 739 00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:08,320 Speaker 1: You know. Carl Sagan spoke about it as that little 740 00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:13,399 Speaker 1: magical blue spec that astronauts see from way up there. So, um, 741 00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:16,000 Speaker 1: Bonnie and I when we got done with the Cuba swim, 742 00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:19,040 Speaker 1: we started a walking initiative and I know you're a 743 00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:21,800 Speaker 1: big walker, we want you to come out walking with us. 744 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:25,000 Speaker 1: I would love that. There you go. So ever, Walk 745 00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:29,360 Speaker 1: is all about a new vision of lifestyle in America, 746 00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:31,800 Speaker 1: and that is that everybody walks a mile every day. 747 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,160 Speaker 1: It doesn't matter what the weather is. You just do. 748 00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:37,000 Speaker 1: You walk before work, you walk during lunch, you walk 749 00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:39,360 Speaker 1: after school with your kids. But you walk a mile 750 00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:44,480 Speaker 1: every day of the year, virtually. And now we're going 751 00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:48,280 Speaker 1: to sort of drive all that walking towards walking along 752 00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:52,239 Speaker 1: the oceans. So next June, we're gonna walk from Daytona 753 00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:56,600 Speaker 1: to Miami. Oh wow, that's fabulous. It's two hundred miles. 754 00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:58,680 Speaker 1: Some people will walk the whole way, twenty miles a 755 00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:01,680 Speaker 1: day for ten days. That's great. Most people will only 756 00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:03,239 Speaker 1: want to walk a mile. They want to be part 757 00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,640 Speaker 1: of it. But we're gonna do a cho hundred mile crusade. 758 00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:10,120 Speaker 1: And all the way we're gonna have beach rallies with mayors, 759 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:15,440 Speaker 1: business people, Bill and Hillary Clinton, all kinds of crazy characters. 760 00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:19,280 Speaker 1: Are you gonna say? I promise I am going to reduce, 761 00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:23,120 Speaker 1: if not eliminate, single use plastics in my home, in 762 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:27,360 Speaker 1: my business, because eight million tons of plastic around the 763 00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:30,480 Speaker 1: world are now going into the ears oceans. They're suffocating 764 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,040 Speaker 1: the lungs of the planet. I would love to be 765 00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:36,160 Speaker 1: part of that. I love walking, I love oceans. You're 766 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:39,160 Speaker 1: bringing them together. I am so happy to talk to 767 00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:42,239 Speaker 1: you today. I could not think of anybody better to 768 00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:47,120 Speaker 1: talk about this subject of resilience. Stay safe, stay healthy, 769 00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:49,759 Speaker 1: and I'm brightened down that I'm gonna see you walk 770 00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:53,920 Speaker 1: on the beach uh in Florida next June. There we 771 00:43:53,960 --> 00:44:00,920 Speaker 1: go Diana and iyads out to buy aography is called 772 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:04,560 Speaker 1: Find a Way a perfect title, and you can find 773 00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:08,320 Speaker 1: more about her new initiative to protect the oceans at 774 00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:12,520 Speaker 1: everwalk dot com. You know, when we think about resilience, 775 00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:15,480 Speaker 1: I think every one of us can reflect on our 776 00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:18,719 Speaker 1: own lives, but certainly the lives of those near us. 777 00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:22,279 Speaker 1: Think about the people you know who have shown great resilience. 778 00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:26,319 Speaker 1: Who's your hero, who's your example? See what you can 779 00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:30,799 Speaker 1: do to help others, especially young people. Understand that to 780 00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:34,800 Speaker 1: keep going is really a mantra that everyone on this show, 781 00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:40,440 Speaker 1: including myself, believe in you and me both. Is brought 782 00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:44,120 Speaker 1: to you by I Heart Radio. We're produced by Julie 783 00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:48,800 Speaker 1: Subran and Kathleen Russo. With help from Huma Aberdeen, Nikki 784 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:54,520 Speaker 1: e Tour, Oscar Flores, Brianna Johnson, Nick Merrill, Lauren Peterson, 785 00:44:54,880 --> 00:45:00,360 Speaker 1: Rob Russo, and Lona valmro Our engineer is Zack mc niece. 786 00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:04,920 Speaker 1: Original music is by Forest Gray and a big thanks 787 00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:10,280 Speaker 1: to Riverside FM. Just imagine we needed a recording platform 788 00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:13,799 Speaker 1: that could help us make a podcast during a pandemic 789 00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:17,400 Speaker 1: and voided they step up. If you like you and 790 00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:20,440 Speaker 1: me both, spread the word, don't keep it to yourself. 791 00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:22,680 Speaker 1: You can subscribe to you and me both on the 792 00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:26,200 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get 793 00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:29,360 Speaker 1: your podcasts, and while you're there, leave us a review. 794 00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:32,359 Speaker 1: It's a great way to help other people discover us 795 00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:35,160 Speaker 1: and we'd love to hear from you, So send us 796 00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:40,320 Speaker 1: your questions, your comments, your ideas or suggestions for future 797 00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:45,560 Speaker 1: shows to you and me both pod at gmail dot com. 798 00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:48,840 Speaker 1: Come back next week when I'm talking about turning Grief 799 00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:53,600 Speaker 1: into Action with comedian patent Oswald and Sabrina Fulton, Trayvon 800 00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:57,440 Speaker 1: Martin's mom and a powerful advocate. Hope you'll join me