Speaker 1: You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: I'm Hillary Clinton and this is You and Me Both.
Speaker 1: You know, when you're well known for doing one thing,
Speaker 1: it's not always easy to put yourself out there and
Speaker 1: try something else. Stay in your lane, people tell you,
Speaker 1: and yeah, look, I've heard that more than a few times.
Speaker 1: Certainly when I was first lady working on healthcare, or
Speaker 1: when I decided to run for the Senate myself. No
Speaker 1: first lady had ever done that before. Even writing a
Speaker 1: political thriller with my friend Louise Penny, or becoming a
Speaker 1: podcast host. All of those things ruffled some feathers of
Speaker 1: those who didn't think I was in the right lane. Well,
Speaker 1: today I'm talking with two incredible women who did switch
Speaker 1: gears and change lanes in their lives and careers. Later
Speaker 1: we'll hear actor, singer, author, advocate and former Miss America
Speaker 1: Vanessa Williams. But to start and rite in time for
Speaker 1: the Winter Olympics, I'm talking to track and field superstar
Speaker 1: Alison Felix. Last summer in Tokyo, Allison competed in her
Speaker 1: fifth Olympic Games, where she won two medals, making her
Speaker 1: the most decorated American track and field athlete in Olympic
Speaker 1: history with nineteen medals total. She's also the most decorated
Speaker 1: athlete regardless of gender in World Athletics championship history. Wow.
Speaker 1: Allison announced that those Olympics were her last, but at
Speaker 1: age thirty five, she is not slowing down. In addition
Speaker 1: to her incredible athletic achievements, Allison also started Safe, a
Speaker 1: woman's lifestyle sneaker company, and she wore the shoes when
Speaker 1: she competed last summer. She's also switched gears to become
Speaker 1: a vocal advocate for black maternal health and for women athletes.
Speaker 1: After experiencing trauma with the birth of her daughter, Cammy,
Speaker 1: who's now three. I was so delighted to have the
Speaker 1: chance to speak with her for this podcast. Hi, Hi,
Speaker 1: how are you? Oh? I'm great, And I gotta start
Speaker 1: by saying, how is that adorable daughter of yours? He
Speaker 1: is doing well. She is thriving, happy three year old,
Speaker 1: running all over the place, keeping me super busy. Um
Speaker 1: and yeah, life with her, it's going great. You know,
Speaker 1: you've done so many amazing things. I want to go
Speaker 1: back though, to the early days, because I read recently
Speaker 1: that you didn't actually start running track until you were
Speaker 1: in ninth grade, which you know it's really young, but
Speaker 1: still you know, a little bit later than some. And
Speaker 1: how did you get into it? What motivated you to
Speaker 1: actually get out there and start to run? What kind
Speaker 1: of kid were you? Well? I was a really active
Speaker 1: kid in like my neighborhood and my community, and my
Speaker 1: parents did an awesome job of keeping us really busy.
Speaker 1: But it wasn't until high school that I actually found track.
Speaker 1: And you're absolutely right as a as a runner and
Speaker 1: for an Olympian, that is a later start. And I
Speaker 1: kind of just stumbled into it, you know. I was
Speaker 1: going to high school and so I was brand new
Speaker 1: school and I didn't know anybody, and my family encouraged
Speaker 1: me to go out for the track team. Um My
Speaker 1: brother was at a different school and he was running
Speaker 1: track and he was doing really well, and so they thought,
Speaker 1: you know, might have some potential there. And so I
Speaker 1: went out to meet friends and I did. I met
Speaker 1: my best girlfriends that you know are still that to
Speaker 1: this day. But I also found the sport and I
Speaker 1: fell in love with it and I am like this,
Speaker 1: this was my thing. You know, the thrill of competition
Speaker 1: and you know, just having a sensible longing and it
Speaker 1: taught me so many lessons and so I'm so grateful
Speaker 1: that I did find it. You know, that word belonging
Speaker 1: is one that I've been thinking a lot about. Everybody
Speaker 1: has to have some place or people or passion that
Speaker 1: they feel gives them that sense of belonging well. And
Speaker 1: then two thousand three, Track and Field News named you
Speaker 1: the high school Athlete of the Year. Yeah, what did
Speaker 1: that feel like? You know, it was kind of surreal
Speaker 1: because it was like I had just started running, you know,
Speaker 1: a couple of years prior, and here things are happening quickly.
Speaker 1: And I felt like it was a kind of a
Speaker 1: turning point at that time because that's when I heard like, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, the Olympics are the next year, and I
Speaker 1: was like, is that a possibility for me? You know,
Speaker 1: like it's I didn't realize that, you know, you could
Speaker 1: go to the Olympics, you could make a career, you know,
Speaker 1: out of being a runner. And so it was kind
Speaker 1: of like a whole new world was open for me.
Speaker 1: And who did you turn to for advice? So here
Speaker 1: you are, Uh, You're getting named high school athlete of
Speaker 1: the Year, and somebody says well, you know, the Olympics
Speaker 1: are next year. How did you think that through? That's
Speaker 1: such a big decision for a teenager, it is. It
Speaker 1: was huge, and I'm so grateful because my parents, although
Speaker 1: they didn't know anything about the sport um, they were
Speaker 1: really committed to me and they were present. And I
Speaker 1: always tell you know, parents who are involved with their
Speaker 1: kids in sports, you know, the best way you can
Speaker 1: support them is to show up. You know, you don't
Speaker 1: have to be this super hard on your kids to
Speaker 1: specialize and do all these things. But my parents, you know,
Speaker 1: no matter if it was a really small meat or
Speaker 1: a big one, they were there. So when it came
Speaker 1: time to make a lot of decisions or think about
Speaker 1: the future, they were the typical parents that really thought
Speaker 1: things through, and we talked to people we knew, and
Speaker 1: we tried to understand what was going on. But I
Speaker 1: think the biggest thing was that I had that support system,
Speaker 1: and I had them in my corner, you know, and
Speaker 1: I could lean on them. And so you tried out
Speaker 1: for the Olympics, you made the American team and mettled
Speaker 1: in the two thousand for Olympics. Obviously, I'm talking to
Speaker 1: you now when you are the most highly decorated metal
Speaker 1: Olympic athlete and track and field ever. But what was
Speaker 1: that first time like going to the Olympics. Oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: everything was so new and exciting. I remember walking and
Speaker 1: opening ceremonies, and I was meeting people that had idolized,
Speaker 1: you know, growing up, and it just felt like a dream,
Speaker 1: you know, and a bit overwhelming. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: I think it lit a fire for me. It was like, Wow,
Speaker 1: this is what the Olympics are about, and if I
Speaker 1: really want to get to the next level and be
Speaker 1: successful on the stage, it's going to require a lot
Speaker 1: of dedication, a lot of sacrifice. We're taking a quick break.
Speaker 1: Stay with us. You've also suffered setbacks in your career.
Speaker 1: You know, in you you tore your hamstring. You couldn't
Speaker 1: compete for I think it was like nine or ten months,
Speaker 1: right and then right before the Summer Olympics you sprained
Speaker 1: your ankle. But you still competed and you still want
Speaker 1: two gold medals. By the way, what's it like for
Speaker 1: a world class athlete to have an injury? What's it
Speaker 1: feel like for you when you do something like tear
Speaker 1: your hamstring? Yeah, it's really challenging, And I think the
Speaker 1: hardest part is that you know what your body is
Speaker 1: capable of doing. You know, this is a lifestyle, and
Speaker 1: you train day in and day out for hours and hours,
Speaker 1: and so when it feels like your body betrays you
Speaker 1: and you try to do something that you used to
Speaker 1: do and not give a second thought, it's really challenging,
Speaker 1: you know, and then it takes you back to kind
Speaker 1: of square one. You have to do all the tedious things.
Speaker 1: You have to step away from the competition, and it's
Speaker 1: when no one is kind of seeing what's going into it,
Speaker 1: and no on is really cheering you on except your
Speaker 1: your inner circle. So it really requires you to do
Speaker 1: all the things and to take all the steps, and
Speaker 1: so it's really challenging, especially at inopportune times. Before the Games,
Speaker 1: I was trying to do something that very few people
Speaker 1: have done and running the two hundred, running the four hundred,
Speaker 1: and I felt like training was going amazing, and so
Speaker 1: to have that setback right before it was time to
Speaker 1: to get out there, it was it was really tough.
Speaker 1: But I think, you know, you challenge yourself in new ways.
Speaker 1: You know, it's about how can you pick up the
Speaker 1: pieces when adversity hits and and what are you gonna
Speaker 1: do with it? And sometimes I think it's more meaningful
Speaker 1: to show people when it's not perfect and when it's
Speaker 1: not pretty, you know how to get it done. Well.
Speaker 1: You have done that, and you did it especially for
Speaker 1: which I am incredibly grateful. Around your pregnancy, and first
Speaker 1: of all, you had a really traumatic birth experience in
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen when your daughter Cammy was born. You know,
Speaker 1: I've been an advocate for maternal mortality, decreases, you better
Speaker 1: birthing experiences, all of that, But it was a terrifying
Speaker 1: time for you, wasn't it. Yeah. I first have to
Speaker 1: just say thank you for all the work that you've
Speaker 1: done on those areas. It's so important. It was terrifying
Speaker 1: for me, you know, being an athlete, I think I
Speaker 1: really took my health for granted. You know, I've always
Speaker 1: been healthy and I've always known how to take care
Speaker 1: of my body, and so when I became pregnant, I
Speaker 1: didn't really give it too much thought. You know, I
Speaker 1: kept training, I felt strong, I felt good, And it
Speaker 1: was at thirty two weeks just going to a routine
Speaker 1: doctor's appointment. Right away, it became very concerning I was
Speaker 1: sent to the hospital for further monitoring, and it was
Speaker 1: there that I was diagnosed with a severe case of preclampsia.
Speaker 1: And never, in my wildest dreams what I think that
Speaker 1: I would be at risk for a complicated pregnancy, or
Speaker 1: that my life would be at risk or my child.
Speaker 1: You know, I just didn't even comprehend that, and so
Speaker 1: things started to spiral out of control and it got
Speaker 1: really scary, and um, you know, as at risk of
Speaker 1: having a stroke or losing my vision and all of
Speaker 1: these things that it just didn't even make sense. I
Speaker 1: had the birth plan of you know, I'm going to
Speaker 1: have a natural, beautiful birth experience, and uh, nothing went
Speaker 1: that way. I had an emergency C section, and you know,
Speaker 1: I was in the hospital for quite a bit, and
Speaker 1: my daughter spent a month in the nick. You and
Speaker 1: it was just a really heavy time for us to
Speaker 1: go through. You know, I'm so sorry that that you
Speaker 1: had to go through that, and I'm incredibly thankful that
Speaker 1: you came out healthy, your daughter came out healthy through
Speaker 1: all of that trauma. But also during your pregnancy, you
Speaker 1: tried not to let people know you were pregnant. I mean,
Speaker 1: here you are an elite athlete, You're training, You're you're
Speaker 1: still working hard every day. Um, what did that feel
Speaker 1: like that you had to in effect hide your pregnancy.
Speaker 1: It was the worst experience. I mean, you know, before
Speaker 1: all of that traumatic birth experience happened. Yeah, I was
Speaker 1: hiding my pregnancy. I was going through, you know, this
Speaker 1: fight with Nike about maternal protections and contracts, and it
Speaker 1: was just such a scary time because in sports, and
Speaker 1: specifically track and field, there had been this culture of
Speaker 1: silence around pregnancy and friends of mine, colleagues, they would
Speaker 1: be pregnant and their contracts would either be paused or
Speaker 1: they would be trying to secure a new contract and
Speaker 1: you know, hide their pregnancy. And so that was kind
Speaker 1: of my situation. I didn't have the offer on the table.
Speaker 1: I knew what had happened in the past, and so
Speaker 1: I was literally training four o'clock in the morning while
Speaker 1: it was still dark. And it just breaks my heart. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this time that should have been so happy and beautiful
Speaker 1: was really lonely and isolating. And I look back on
Speaker 1: it and it does bring me sadness to to know
Speaker 1: that that was the situation. I mean, what an horrible,
Speaker 1: outdated unfair caricature of pregnant women. I mean, it just
Speaker 1: drives me crazy hearing about it, you know, these years later.
Speaker 1: But you've said that before all this happened, that you know,
Speaker 1: you avoided speaking out on issues that mattered you. Know,
Speaker 1: you were an athlete. Your your accomplishments, your metals, your records,
Speaker 1: they all spoke for you. And I totally get that.
Speaker 1: And you also were really conscious of how you were perceived,
Speaker 1: particularly in the world that gives you contracts, that supports you,
Speaker 1: that you know, does what the whole athletic industrial complex does.
Speaker 1: But after your pregnancy you started speaking out and your
Speaker 1: letter to The New York Times, I read that, and
Speaker 1: oh man, I thought that was so brave, so important,
Speaker 1: so needed. In it, you talked about women athletes losing
Speaker 1: money and contracts during pregnancy, and you also then spoke
Speaker 1: out and even testified before Congress about the maternal health
Speaker 1: disparities that impact Black women disproportionately. So can you talk
Speaker 1: a little bit about how you decided to really use
Speaker 1: your powerful voice to speak on things that you had
Speaker 1: personal experience, but that you could then draw a larger
Speaker 1: audience for. Yeah, it was such a journey to get
Speaker 1: to that point. I mean absolutely what you said is
Speaker 1: it's true. I was the athlete that was hyper focused
Speaker 1: on performance. You know, I felt like my job is
Speaker 1: to get medals, to break records, and I was such
Speaker 1: a people pleaser, you know. I didn't want to rock
Speaker 1: the boat and I just wanted to stay in my
Speaker 1: lane and do what I did. And that worked for
Speaker 1: a long time. And then I started to go through
Speaker 1: these real life experiences and I started to really see
Speaker 1: kind of what was happening behind the curtain and understand
Speaker 1: that I was in a position that I had a
Speaker 1: platform and I could speak out. And I think the
Speaker 1: thing that really kind of shifted me to get to
Speaker 1: that point was having my daughter. You know, I started
Speaker 1: to think about, you know, the world that she is
Speaker 1: going to grow up in, and here, you know, I
Speaker 1: don't want her to have these same battles, you know,
Speaker 1: that have been happening for so long. And I got
Speaker 1: to a place where it was like, even if nothing happens,
Speaker 1: you know, I just deeply believe that this is the
Speaker 1: right thing to do and I have to speak out
Speaker 1: on it, and you know, I want to make her proud.
Speaker 1: And I also thinking about the other women you know,
Speaker 1: so many women came before me who didn't have the
Speaker 1: opportunity to speak out, and a lot of these situations
Speaker 1: there's in d a s and that's why it's happened
Speaker 1: for so long. And here I had the opportunity to really,
Speaker 1: you know, come forward and say this is what's happening.
Speaker 1: And so um, yeah, it took a long time, but
Speaker 1: grateful that I got to a place where I could
Speaker 1: get outside of my comfort zone and speak up. Well,
Speaker 1: thank goodness you did. And I totally get what happens
Speaker 1: to you when you have a child and in my
Speaker 1: case now three grandchildren, and you really do think about
Speaker 1: the world you want them to grow up in and
Speaker 1: what they'll inherit. And it seems almost you know, preordained
Speaker 1: in some way that you know, you and Serena Williams
Speaker 1: would both have had these really traumatic birth experiences because
Speaker 1: so many black women have had similar experiences. Some did
Speaker 1: not survive, some did not see their baby survive. And
Speaker 1: I was really pleased to see Vice President Harris take
Speaker 1: this on as an issue, and you know, members of
Speaker 1: Congress past start passing laws you testified on behalf of
Speaker 1: you know, better attention, better resources. This should not be
Speaker 1: and thank you for being the advocate that you are.
Speaker 1: And part of what you did to keep going further
Speaker 1: than you'd ever gone before was to found your own
Speaker 1: women's shoe company as as very explicitly an alternative to
Speaker 1: the male oriented sneaker companies that drive the sports world.
Speaker 1: So tell me about that. You know, where'd you find name?
Speaker 1: You know, why do you think we need our own
Speaker 1: shoe company? Yeah? So it actually happened very organically. You know,
Speaker 1: I was looking for a footwear sponsor. I had Athleta
Speaker 1: as a apparel sponsor, and I was very empowered by
Speaker 1: the way they did business, you know, their female lead,
Speaker 1: their mission, you know everything. And I was like, wow,
Speaker 1: if I could find this in footwear, that would be amazing.
Speaker 1: And started to search and I realized that here's another
Speaker 1: area where women are an afterthought and shoes aren't made
Speaker 1: for women. Um. And so I was talking with my
Speaker 1: brother and I was basically venting to him about like, wow,
Speaker 1: I've been to four Olympics and I don't have shoes
Speaker 1: to wear in the Olympics, Like this is so frustrating.
Speaker 1: And he looked at me and he was like, well,
Speaker 1: what if we did this ourselves? And I was like,
Speaker 1: that sounds so big, But the more I sat with it,
Speaker 1: I was like, Wow, instead of asking for change, here's
Speaker 1: an opportunity to be that change. And so we found
Speaker 1: in Sage, which is a lifestyle brand for women, and
Speaker 1: our first product is a lifestyle sneaker. And one of
Speaker 1: my proudest moments was being able to compete in the
Speaker 1: Olympics wearing my own brand, you know, shoes made by
Speaker 1: my company, and it was incredible. Um. The name comes
Speaker 1: from the French word seschet to move back and forth,
Speaker 1: but we use it in the context of the wave.
Speaker 1: It's a the safe wave is found in enclosed bodies
Speaker 1: of water and atmospheric pressure pushes that water to one side,
Speaker 1: and it's the safe wave that restores balance. And so
Speaker 1: we're looking to bring balance into the marketplace. You know,
Speaker 1: these are shoes designed and engineered by women for women.
Speaker 1: The female foot is actually has differences than a man's foot,
Speaker 1: and so we think that, you know, we should be
Speaker 1: a priority. So that's what we're doing. And we exist
Speaker 1: to see women and too no women and so that
Speaker 1: women will never feel how I felt when I was
Speaker 1: training at four o'clock in the morning, So that nobody
Speaker 1: would know that I was pregnant. Sou just really cited
Speaker 1: about it and looking forward to serving women. Oh I
Speaker 1: love that story and I love the name Sage. That
Speaker 1: really has a great feel to it. And now that
Speaker 1: you told us all what it means, thank you. Well.
Speaker 1: Once again, you broke several Olympic records this past summer
Speaker 1: in Tokyo, becoming the most decorated female trek and field
Speaker 1: athlete in Olympic history, all the way back to the Greeks,
Speaker 1: which didn't even allow women. It's just so extraordinary. How
Speaker 1: did this Olympic competition feel for you? There? You were
Speaker 1: wearing your own safe shoes, a mom, competing at the
Speaker 1: highest levels possible. What was that like compared to past
Speaker 1: games you were in? Yeah, oh my gosh, it felt
Speaker 1: so good. And it was much bigger than the race.
Speaker 1: You know, I went and I felt like I was
Speaker 1: a representation for women and for mothers and for anyone
Speaker 1: who was told that, you know, their best days were
Speaker 1: behind them. And that just gave me an added motivation.
Speaker 1: You know. I usually I am so stress about every
Speaker 1: little thing and every performance competition thing, and this time
Speaker 1: it was so free because I had heard from so
Speaker 1: many women, connected with so many people who just told
Speaker 1: me to get out there and enjoy myself and that
Speaker 1: they were proud of me. And it was like a
Speaker 1: weight was lifted off of my shoulders. And so I
Speaker 1: think it's the first time I felt so fulfilled, you know,
Speaker 1: I crossed the line. It was like, wow, I was
Speaker 1: told that this couldn't be done. And how many of
Speaker 1: us are told that, you know, like we we all
Speaker 1: we all can relate to that. And so it was
Speaker 1: so special to you know, to cross that line and
Speaker 1: in the shoes, and to know that my daughter was
Speaker 1: watching and that she has been on this journey and
Speaker 1: I can't wait to really, you know, tell her what
Speaker 1: it has been like and that she has also been
Speaker 1: that motivation to keep going. Oh my gosh. Well you
Speaker 1: also decided, uh and announced that this would be your
Speaker 1: last time competing at the Olympics. Was that a tough
Speaker 1: decision to make? Where you conflicted about it? It was
Speaker 1: mixed emotions, you know, I knew it was probably time,
Speaker 1: you know, on the Olympic stage. I I had such
Speaker 1: a beautiful journey, you know, five Olympic Games, and but
Speaker 1: I wasn't sure how it was going to feel I
Speaker 1: felt like I had no regrets. You know, I remember
Speaker 1: stepping on the track for that last race and just
Speaker 1: feeling a lot of joy. Ah. That is uh, you know,
Speaker 1: beautifully said. And I don't think you will ever slow down.
Speaker 1: I think you'll just change direction and take on new challenges.
Speaker 1: Thinking about developing any new hobbies or taking up something else.
Speaker 1: I don't know, are you. You know? The one thing
Speaker 1: I'm really looking forward to doing that I haven't been
Speaker 1: able to do is skiing. It's like the one thing
Speaker 1: every time we go out for the holidays, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm always the one at the bottom of the hill
Speaker 1: waiting for everybody. So I think that's one little hobby
Speaker 1: that I hope to take up. It's a great sport
Speaker 1: by no means a great or even a mediocre skier,
Speaker 1: but I loved and you know, I hope you will
Speaker 1: take it up and enjoy that. One of those small
Speaker 1: things that's kind of been on my list that it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: now I can actually do that. Of course, knowing you,
Speaker 1: I'll probably see you in the Winter Olympics in eight years.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not going to cut it out. I
Speaker 1: think we're safe there. Well, Allison, I cannot tell you
Speaker 1: how much I have enjoyed watching you as a great
Speaker 1: fan and admirer. Watching you in the Olympics and to
Speaker 1: see you become a mom and stand up for other
Speaker 1: mothers and stand up for yourself and stand up for
Speaker 1: what's right has been absolutely a joy. And uh, I
Speaker 1: just wish you the very best whatever direction you decide
Speaker 1: to go, I pill downhill wherever you end down. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you so much. It's been so nice to talk
Speaker 1: with you, and I just appreciate everything that you've done
Speaker 1: in the inspiration that you've been to me and to
Speaker 1: my daughter as well. To keep track of Alison Felix's
Speaker 1: next moves, you can follow her on Twitter. Now. Maybe
Speaker 1: you know Vanessa Williams as the chart topping singer of
Speaker 1: hits like Save the Best for Last, or maybe for
Speaker 1: her Emmy nominated role on the hit TV show Ugly Betty,
Speaker 1: or for one of her many starring roles on Broadway.
Speaker 1: I mean, seriously, Vanessa has been nominated for or one
Speaker 1: nearly every award there is, and she's worked in every
Speaker 1: facet of the entertainment industry, in addition to having her
Speaker 1: own fashion line and becoming a best selling author. And advocate.
Speaker 1: I'm fortunate to know Vanessa not just as a fan,
Speaker 1: but as a neighbor since she grew up and her
Speaker 1: mother still lives in Chappaqua, New York. The thing that
Speaker 1: first brought Vanessa Williams to national attention was her barrier
Speaker 1: breaking crowning as the first black woman to be Miss
Speaker 1: America back in nineteen three. Soon after, she was forced
Speaker 1: to resign when Penthouse Magazine published risque photos of her
Speaker 1: without her consent. But boy did she make a comeback.
Speaker 1: You know, I am so happy to have you on
Speaker 1: this show. Vanessa and Chelsea and I did the very
Speaker 1: last event in promoting our book of Gutsy Women with
Speaker 1: you as the moderator at Pace University on a very
Speaker 1: snowy winter night in December of twenty nineteen. And it
Speaker 1: was one of the very last things that I did,
Speaker 1: and I think you did before the world shut down. Right. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: we had a wonderful turnout. Of course, your book is
Speaker 1: amazing and so inspirational. And then uh we started twenty
Speaker 1: I went off to London what I has told you,
Speaker 1: I was going to start in City of Angels at
Speaker 1: the Garrick Theater. We went into rehearsal, and then we
Speaker 1: were in previews and then slowly people's arted calling and
Speaker 1: saying I'm sick, I canceled my flight, or oh, I'm
Speaker 1: nervous about coming because people are starting to get sick
Speaker 1: around me. And then Broadway closed that March twelve, and
Speaker 1: we closed the following Monday that the March, and then
Speaker 1: all theaters shut down for a while. So it was hard.
Speaker 1: It was hard. So how are you now? How have
Speaker 1: you gotten through this pandemic time that we've all been
Speaker 1: living through since then? Well, I was one of the
Speaker 1: lucky ones. You know. For instance, Renee Fleming, brilliant soprano.
Speaker 1: As a friend of mine, we started doing all these
Speaker 1: Zoom cocktail hours, which everybody did, and while we're sipping
Speaker 1: our wine, we're like, you know, we should do something together.
Speaker 1: Let's do it live from our living rooms. And then
Speaker 1: we started thinking about programs and shows, and then I
Speaker 1: was like, well, why don't we do it actually in
Speaker 1: a venue and do it socially distance And we end
Speaker 1: up doing a show at the Kennedy Center, something that
Speaker 1: we came up with a zoom and then you know,
Speaker 1: I did a Elephantzgerald Christmas Swinging Christmas thing that we
Speaker 1: did outside. I did a live from the West Side,
Speaker 1: a Broadway thing that we did, you know, socially distanced streaming,
Speaker 1: so you kind of change the game. And and I
Speaker 1: still got a chance to sing from my piano, you know,
Speaker 1: in the next room. And you made it work, so
Speaker 1: I didn't really lose much at all, and I had
Speaker 1: the convenience of doing most of my performing in my
Speaker 1: own house. I love that. I love that, you know,
Speaker 1: let's make it happen attitude. You also had that, and
Speaker 1: that's exactly, you know, one of the reasons why I
Speaker 1: admire you so much. You know, when I think about
Speaker 1: your early career, it really was very much focused in
Speaker 1: this place where we both live. And your parents were
Speaker 1: both music teachers, right, and you came from a musical family.
Speaker 1: You had the talent and the drive and the interest
Speaker 1: to do it yourself. And as you know everybody knows,
Speaker 1: you became the first black woman who was crowned Miss American.
Speaker 1: I remember watching that. I remember seeing you long before
Speaker 1: I knew I would live in your town. And god,
Speaker 1: you are, I mean, you are just so magnetic. And
Speaker 1: then you waged one of the great comebacks in entertainment history,
Speaker 1: and you're such a role model for not only women
Speaker 1: of color, but you know, young women and not so
Speaker 1: young women. Uh. You know, just recently, I released a
Speaker 1: master class about resilience, so you know, talk a little
Speaker 1: bit about what you have inside of you that keeps
Speaker 1: you up and going. Well, thank you for um that
Speaker 1: observation and also being compared and in the same group
Speaker 1: as you, because resilience is one of those things that
Speaker 1: I don't know whether the fire in the belly is
Speaker 1: what you're just born with, but I have it and
Speaker 1: I know you have it. And we both had very
Speaker 1: strong mothers that I do believe that I always wanted
Speaker 1: to please, which is still she's still eighty two and
Speaker 1: I'm still trying to fleeze her, which you know, it
Speaker 1: informs a lot. I mean, I look back at my
Speaker 1: marriages and like, you didn't like this person, Well guess what,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna marry him anyway. And I mean, like a
Speaker 1: lot of my choices, a lot of mother isches. But
Speaker 1: we did write a book together and kind of wanted
Speaker 1: to mention that. I mean, it has one of the
Speaker 1: great titles of any mother daughter memoir. You have no
Speaker 1: idea a famous daughter, her no nonsense mother and how
Speaker 1: they survived pageants, Hollywood, love loss, and each other. Yes,
Speaker 1: so you know, I think it gets passed down that
Speaker 1: my mother is super very resilient and just fought her
Speaker 1: way to the top of what she wanted to do.
Speaker 1: And well, she was born in Buffalo, you know, raising
Speaker 1: a very segregated place, and just fought to prove herself
Speaker 1: time and time again. So I think that watching her journey,
Speaker 1: seeing her resilience definitely was I would say the footprint
Speaker 1: for my ease at being able to always kind of
Speaker 1: trigger what I think comes naturally within my my bones.
Speaker 1: But also as I've grown, and you know, at fifty
Speaker 1: eight years old, I have way more wisdom. I realized
Speaker 1: that you're always going to be judged no matter you
Speaker 1: know from high school too, you're always going to be judged,
Speaker 1: and they don't know who you are, they don't know
Speaker 1: what you're thinking, they don't know what you're feeling. So
Speaker 1: just leave that judgment at the door and believe in
Speaker 1: yourself and know that, okay, you know what, they'll eventually
Speaker 1: know who I am. I don't get a chance to
Speaker 1: show them, and it's, you know, one of those things
Speaker 1: that I've just kind of used as my template to
Speaker 1: survive and to not give a dam. Really, yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: everybody's judged, but look, it's harder for women. There is
Speaker 1: still this you know, blatant double standard as somebody in
Speaker 1: the public eye. You know, you do getticism, and you
Speaker 1: know you can learn something. Sometimes your critics will tell
Speaker 1: you things your friends you know won't. But you can't
Speaker 1: let it pull you down and keep you down and
Speaker 1: make you doubt yourself and lose your confidence in yourself.
Speaker 1: And that's what I try to tell young people, particularly
Speaker 1: young women, all the time. I said, get used to it.
Speaker 1: You're gonna get criticized. It doesn't matter how hard you
Speaker 1: try and how good you do. You're gonna get criticized.
Speaker 1: Isn't that right? Absolutely? And also I mean what I
Speaker 1: tell young younger women, I say, you know, do the work.
Speaker 1: You'll get hired when people know that you show up
Speaker 1: in your professional and you can handle stress, you can
Speaker 1: solve problems. You're not incapable of of getting yourself out
Speaker 1: of a situation or managing a situation. Right, that's what
Speaker 1: your employer is gonna want to see, and that's what
Speaker 1: makes you a good team player, a good actor that
Speaker 1: they're going to bring onto an ensemble, that they know
Speaker 1: that you can handle it and be able to to
Speaker 1: be professional. You know, I've I've I've got four kids,
Speaker 1: and that's what I always try to say. Show up
Speaker 1: on time, do your best, and you'll always continue need
Speaker 1: to get hired. Yeah, do the work right, We'll be
Speaker 1: right back. I've always wanted to ask somebody who's in
Speaker 1: the spotlight as you are, how do you memorize all
Speaker 1: your lines? Do you have a trick? I do have
Speaker 1: a trick. So most of the time people will look
Speaker 1: at a page and think that they're gonna they do
Speaker 1: it by road and go over and over and over again,
Speaker 1: and as as soon as they stand up, they can't
Speaker 1: remember a thing. So you have to make your muscle
Speaker 1: memory work. So I do all myself on the treadmill,
Speaker 1: So I'll say it out loud while I'm walking on
Speaker 1: the treadmill, so when I'm in the scene and I'm walking,
Speaker 1: I still have it connected to my body. So that's
Speaker 1: one aspect. And then I also write out everything in scripts,
Speaker 1: so I'm actually again physically writing out the words that
Speaker 1: I'm speaking, and and just it's it's repetition, it really is. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I love this idea of doing it on the treadmill.
Speaker 1: Another reason why I should get on the treadmill. Okay,
Speaker 1: I am being I am being, you know, encouraged and
Speaker 1: a little bit shamed, to be honest. You know, my
Speaker 1: my daughter ran the marathon, the New York City Marathon, uh,
Speaker 1: this past November, and I think all that athletic DNA
Speaker 1: skipped a generation, you know, if it just went right
Speaker 1: to her. You know. The other thing I just heard
Speaker 1: is that you've got a really fun new role. You
Speaker 1: switched gears again to become a judge on a drag
Speaker 1: queen singing competition called Queen of the Universe. What's that
Speaker 1: been like? It was amazing. We we shot it in London.
Speaker 1: It is a global singing competition for drag queens, which
Speaker 1: is always fun. Give me more sparkle, give me more glitter,
Speaker 1: give me more sequence and uh. These queens competed from India,
Speaker 1: you know, Brazil, China, France, the UK of course, the
Speaker 1: United States, Mexico, Netherlands, all over the globe. And the
Speaker 1: cash prize was two d fifty thousand dollars, which is amazing.
Speaker 1: That's a lot of money for contest on TV and
Speaker 1: they have to sing live. That was a big thing.
Speaker 1: No lip sinking. They are singing live. You know that's good.
Speaker 1: I mean the lip sinking, you know. Yeah, okay, that's fine,
Speaker 1: but really for these contests, people should sing live. I'm
Speaker 1: so happy you're doing that. Yeah, yeah, it was a
Speaker 1: lot of fun. You know, you've been incredible in the
Speaker 1: range of your roles your activities. Obviously you are a singer,
Speaker 1: as we all know, but also an actor, a fashion designer,
Speaker 1: a writer, an advocate. How have you switched between these,
Speaker 1: you know, various talents and these roles that you've had.
Speaker 1: I mean, I loved you in Ugly Betty, by the
Speaker 1: way I loved you. I mean I don't know, I
Speaker 1: loved and hated you, but I basically loved you. And
Speaker 1: so how what would you advise somebody who had, you know,
Speaker 1: a variety of interests and talents, because they do have
Speaker 1: to do the work, But how do they know what
Speaker 1: area to do the work in and how to build
Speaker 1: a career or how can they follow your example and
Speaker 1: be so versatile well, be open to um taking challenges
Speaker 1: and risks. A lot of things that I never thought
Speaker 1: I was going to be able to do came to
Speaker 1: me because of doing something else. Uh. So you know, yes,
Speaker 1: have a plan, yes, you know, have an outline of
Speaker 1: what you think you want to do in life, but
Speaker 1: then be open to the opportunities that you're not even
Speaker 1: aware of that will come. I'm at this age now
Speaker 1: or midlife. Have I made enough impact in my life?
Speaker 1: What am I going to do? And the advocacy portion
Speaker 1: of it really kind of fell in my lap. I
Speaker 1: would say my biggest role as of yet as as
Speaker 1: a founder of Black Theaty United, which happened um last
Speaker 1: year after the George Floyd murder and all of my
Speaker 1: friends from me Scoll Theater that we've been in shows
Speaker 1: with for over thirty years. Augia McDonald called me, Lashawn's
Speaker 1: called me, Norm Lewis, Brian Stokes, Mitchell. We were so
Speaker 1: stunned and so enraged. We said, what are we gonna do?
Speaker 1: We've got to do something. So we've been able to
Speaker 1: not only um have amazing platforms where hopefully we'll have you,
Speaker 1: be able to have you. Uh, but we've done town halls.
Speaker 1: We have a new deal for Broadway which is about
Speaker 1: e d I A b um and making sure that
Speaker 1: there is inclusion and equity within commercial theaters, and that
Speaker 1: advocacy part of my life, that real active boots on
Speaker 1: the ground. Starting a foundation just recently happened and I
Speaker 1: couldn't be prouder. And we're doing all the work, but
Speaker 1: it's it's a lot, but it means something. It's meaningful,
Speaker 1: and I'm happy to be a founding member of something
Speaker 1: that will be a legacy and I can pass on
Speaker 1: to my children, my grandchildren. You mentioned E D I
Speaker 1: B D I A b SO equity, diverse city, inclusion,
Speaker 1: accessibility and belonging. Oh, I love that. And we held
Speaker 1: seminars with theater owners, producers, directors, casting directors, union people,
Speaker 1: so people in front of the stage, behind the stage,
Speaker 1: owning this stage, about how there has been damaged, how
Speaker 1: you might not even be aware of the power of
Speaker 1: diversity in the dollars and marketing UH and allowing everybody
Speaker 1: to have a chance. The quote that I love is
Speaker 1: diversity is a fact. Inclusion is a choice, So make
Speaker 1: the choice to include us. That's really great. And you know,
Speaker 1: when I think about the pandemic and how disruptive and
Speaker 1: difficult it's been, I also think that a lot of
Speaker 1: people found these kind of silver linings. You all are
Speaker 1: such busy people, and so it's almost hard to believe
Speaker 1: that you could have from your various you know, vantage
Speaker 1: points and everything you were doing, found the time and
Speaker 1: the energy to build this, except for the stomach when
Speaker 1: everything was closed. But what a blessing that you did. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: As as we discussed a little bit earlier, you know,
Speaker 1: we both have had big public you know, moments that
Speaker 1: we wished we hadn't had. You know, some people when
Speaker 1: they go through things that are difficult, they get hyper cautious,
Speaker 1: they get really defensive, they kind of shut down. How
Speaker 1: how do you think about navigating life in the public eye.
Speaker 1: You've been in it a really long time. I've been
Speaker 1: in a really long time. It never gets easier, but
Speaker 1: you get better at it, don't you exactly? Um, and
Speaker 1: I certainly was very defensive for a long long time.
Speaker 1: I mean I became famous at twenty years old, so um,
Speaker 1: you know, uh, it really took me a long time
Speaker 1: to say, yes I'm talented, Yes I'm smart, don't put
Speaker 1: the beauty queen have that negate anything that is really me.
Speaker 1: So I battled that for years and uh it was
Speaker 1: probably once I got more success. My my career has
Speaker 1: always been I didn't know she could do that. Really,
Speaker 1: I didn't know she did. And every accomplishment I've been
Speaker 1: undervalued and underestimated, and every time I've had an accomplishment, oh,
Speaker 1: I didn't know if she could do that. So that
Speaker 1: gave that gave me the thrill. It's like, okay, you
Speaker 1: know what, just cut me out and I'm gonna come
Speaker 1: in and surprise you all. So you know, it's like
Speaker 1: with me, oh my gosh, oh wow, okay, And and
Speaker 1: it's it's and people are always trying to fit you
Speaker 1: into the box they've created, and it does get tiresome.
Speaker 1: I mean, do you feel, as such a successful artist
Speaker 1: in so many ways, do you feel like it's better
Speaker 1: not just for you because you've proven yourself over and
Speaker 1: over again, but for you know, young women coming behind.
Speaker 1: Well for me personally, I finally reconciled and instead of
Speaker 1: saying no, no, no, no no, I've said yes. I
Speaker 1: was Miss America. So the pageant thing, because I was
Speaker 1: I didn't want to be involved with anything with a
Speaker 1: crown and pageant all the kind of stuff. So that
Speaker 1: has taken me a while too. When people say you'll
Speaker 1: always be my queen, I would roll my eyes, like
Speaker 1: here we go again. And and now I think, Okay,
Speaker 1: I remember when I was twenty years old and black
Speaker 1: women would come up to me who are elderly and say,
Speaker 1: I never thought i'd see it in my lifetime and weep.
Speaker 1: I mean, when you are the first, that's so important
Speaker 1: to so many people. So I've embraced that now as
Speaker 1: opposed to saying oh, it didn't matter or oh please
Speaker 1: don't bring it up, which has helped me just like, Okay,
Speaker 1: that's my history, and that's let me accept it instead
Speaker 1: of trying to fight it all the time. So that's
Speaker 1: taken a lot of angst and defensiveness away. But for
Speaker 1: women again, it's it's about the judgment and being put
Speaker 1: in a box. And I mean you have to just
Speaker 1: use that fuel for your fire and just say I'm
Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna prove to you, okay, got me out,
Speaker 1: guess what I'm coming for you and and and prove it. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: you can't change the past, and at some point, even
Speaker 1: if other people can't get on and move from it,
Speaker 1: you have to what is it that you're now fired
Speaker 1: up about? Doing. I mean, do you have some plans
Speaker 1: that you're looking forward to, some activities that get you
Speaker 1: up in the morning. Oh, there's always something that comes
Speaker 1: my way. Uh. I'm really excited about a Broadway project
Speaker 1: that has a lot to do with the White House.
Speaker 1: As soon as I have signed on. As soon as
Speaker 1: we get a theater, I will call you immediately because
Speaker 1: you will die. You will be there helping night. I
Speaker 1: guarantee you. I will give you seats and you will
Speaker 1: love it. It's a comedy, it's hilarious and you will
Speaker 1: get everything and I will play the first lady. So
Speaker 1: I'll have to call you for some tips. But it
Speaker 1: is really funny. I am more than happy to be,
Speaker 1: you know, a consultant and do whatever I can for you.
Speaker 1: I cannot tell you how much I always enjoy you.
Speaker 1: Always put a smile on my face. Vanessa. I just
Speaker 1: want to wish you and your one her full family
Speaker 1: all the best going forward. Thank you so much, and
Speaker 1: it's always an honor to talk to you. And I'm
Speaker 1: always amazed at what your next stage in life is,
Speaker 1: which is always amazing. So thanks so much. Well, I
Speaker 1: don't know about you, but I can't wait for this
Speaker 1: mysterious play that Vanessa Williams told us is in the works.
Speaker 1: You and Me Both is brought to you by I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. We're produced by Julie Subran, Kathleen Russo and
Speaker 1: Rob Russo, with help from Juma Aberdeen, Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman,
Speaker 1: Brianna Johnson, Nick Merrill, Laura Olan, Lona Velmorrow, and Banita Zaman.
Speaker 1: Our engineer is Zack McNeice and the original music is
Speaker 1: by Forrest Gray. If you like You and Me Both,
Speaker 1: please tell someone else about it. And if you're not
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Speaker 1: subscribe to You and Me Both on the I Heart
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening and I'll see you next week.