Speaker 1: And this connection is a state of pain that is
Speaker 1: part of your own evolution in a way that allows
Speaker 1: you to say, this experience is teaching me something new
Speaker 1: about myself. Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time,
Speaker 1: great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have.
Speaker 1: Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what
Speaker 1: you think ring true. And yet for many of us,
Speaker 1: our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 1: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 1: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 1: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 1: just about thinking our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 1: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 1: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 1: the right direction, how they their good Wolf. Thanks for
Speaker 1: joining us. Our guest on this episode is Iman al Zabi,
Speaker 1: a Muslim spiritual teacher who integrates the principles of harmony, beauty,
Speaker 1: and unity into her teachings. Iman is a facilitator and
Speaker 1: transformational coach who helps individuals transform their relationships and careers,
Speaker 1: heal from past trauma, and Live Authentically Today, Iman and
Speaker 1: Eric discuss her book Finding Grace, Daily Comfort for Uncertain Times.
Speaker 1: Hi Emon, Welcome to the show. Hi Eric, thank you
Speaker 1: for having me. It's a pleasure to have you on.
Speaker 1: We're going to be discussing your most recent book, Finding Grace,
Speaker 1: Daily Comfort for Uncertain Times. But before we get into that,
Speaker 1: I'd like to start, like we always do, with the parable.
Speaker 1: There's a grandmother who's talking came with her grandson. She says,
Speaker 1: in life, there are two wolves inside of us that
Speaker 1: are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which
Speaker 1: represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the
Speaker 1: other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed
Speaker 1: and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and he
Speaker 1: thinks about it for a second, and he looks up
Speaker 1: at his grandmother. He says, well, grandmother, which one wins?
Speaker 1: And the grandmother says, the one you feed. So I'd
Speaker 1: like to start off by asking you what that parable
Speaker 1: means to you in your life and in the work
Speaker 1: that you do. That's a very interesting parable because it
Speaker 1: kind of encompasses what the human condition is all about. Right,
Speaker 1: We're always in a battle between the dark side and
Speaker 1: the good side of us and the way it has
Speaker 1: manifested in my life, of course, and in my journey
Speaker 1: towards spiritual connection. It has come in the in the
Speaker 1: form of you know, me suffering from anxiety and depression,
Speaker 1: and that felt like there was a part of me
Speaker 1: that had a sense of self abuse, didn't want to
Speaker 1: live a good life, didn't want to be expressing myself.
Speaker 1: I kind of portrayed myself. Self betrayal is a form
Speaker 1: of self abuse. Hating yourself is a form of self abuse.
Speaker 1: Disconnecting yourself is a form of self abuse. But on
Speaker 1: the other side, the good side of me, which I
Speaker 1: started the journey because of this, is to go on
Speaker 1: the other side where I feed my passion, where I
Speaker 1: feed my gifts, where I feed the side of me
Speaker 1: that wants to freely express itself and respect itself and
Speaker 1: have a sense of self regard. And so the journey
Speaker 1: has been all about you know, the see. So let's
Speaker 1: say between you know, the self abuse part of me, yourself,
Speaker 1: and and the part that has its dreams and gifts
Speaker 1: and wants to express all of that in life. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what it means to me. Wonderful yea. At one
Speaker 1: point in the book you say the purpose of life
Speaker 1: is to fully experience darkness and light and to be
Speaker 1: privileged to choose one over the other. And I certainly
Speaker 1: when I read that made me think of this parable.
Speaker 1: So I wanted to start the conversation off with something
Speaker 1: that you talk about in one of your earlier books,
Speaker 1: and you talk about dealing with some chronic conditions and
Speaker 1: that you found your way sort of into energy healing
Speaker 1: and that that made a huge change in your life
Speaker 1: kind of very very quickly, and that it was this
Speaker 1: thing you were very interested in. And yet it appeared
Speaker 1: over time that your family was uncomfortable with that type
Speaker 1: of work because they felt like it was out of
Speaker 1: accord with your traditional religion of Islam. So could you
Speaker 1: say a little bit more, just, you know, sort of
Speaker 1: tell me a little bit more about that story and
Speaker 1: how you kind of reconciled all that sure, and the
Speaker 1: way I've suffered from anxiety and depression. I felt like
Speaker 1: a living health for seven years of my life, and
Speaker 1: I would be put on medication and then the time
Speaker 1: I say, like to the doctor, I would like to
Speaker 1: be pregnant, now, he with me off, and then I'd
Speaker 1: have withdrawal symptoms, and then he put me back on
Speaker 1: again after I give birth. Right, so that lasted for
Speaker 1: about seven years of my life, and I knew that
Speaker 1: the doctors had nothing else to offer me but the pill.
Speaker 1: And you know, I would go there, they'd listen to me,
Speaker 1: and then he would increase my doors and he would
Speaker 1: add his stuff, and I'm like, this is not helping,
Speaker 1: this is not how I want to live my life.
Speaker 1: So from there on I went on a journey of
Speaker 1: you know, I've got to find the answer for myself,
Speaker 1: to see where I could go with us. And then
Speaker 1: it was just by chance, you know that I attended
Speaker 1: an energy healing workshop. Before that, I also taught myself CBT,
Speaker 1: cognitive behavioral therapy. I taught myself about panic attacks, about anxiety,
Speaker 1: read a lot about in this field, attended energy healing workshops,
Speaker 1: and from there on I started to feel like, all right,
Speaker 1: there's a sense of control. I'm getting a sense of control.
Speaker 1: I'm getting a sense of what I can do to
Speaker 1: help myself beyond the pill. And that took a while
Speaker 1: for me to to understand. You know that I am
Speaker 1: actually empowered, that I am somebody who can actually control
Speaker 1: her thoughts and work with the shadows side, right, the
Speaker 1: side that was kind of controlling my life with daily
Speaker 1: panic attacks. And if you had a panic attack, you
Speaker 1: know what that means and what that feels. It was
Speaker 1: like dying in the moment, it literally does, right, So
Speaker 1: I had to work through all of that, and you know,
Speaker 1: at some point with the energy healing workshops, I was
Speaker 1: starting to get results. I started to feel better. And
Speaker 1: I remember in one of the classes, I picked up
Speaker 1: the case that had my prozac and the pills and
Speaker 1: I threw them in the garbage and I said to
Speaker 1: everybody in the class, this is going to be the
Speaker 1: last time I take my antidepressant. And a friend there on,
Speaker 1: I knew I was not going to come back to
Speaker 1: this and that was the start of my journey of
Speaker 1: exploration into the world of self help energy healing, understanding
Speaker 1: what that feels. But as I get deeper and deeper,
Speaker 1: of course, I started to have intuitive insights. I started
Speaker 1: to have a better sense of into the energy realm.
Speaker 1: I got more advanced into things. And my sister, who
Speaker 1: is very very religious, had a dream about me, and
Speaker 1: in the dream she saw me is not looking so good.
Speaker 1: She said, you look dark face, like there's something wrong
Speaker 1: with you. And she interpreted the message that I'm doing
Speaker 1: something outside of my faith and that I should come
Speaker 1: back to God. And that triggered me big time. I
Speaker 1: was like, I thought I was on the path of God.
Speaker 1: How come this is coming my way? What does that mean? Right?
Speaker 1: So I went on a journey to see how I
Speaker 1: can bridge what I knew to be true, which I
Speaker 1: call universal truths and truths that are principles in which
Speaker 1: the universe operates, and things that I felt could violate
Speaker 1: those universal truths. Right, And I understand my religion, Islam,
Speaker 1: as in full alignment with those universal truths. I've done
Speaker 1: my research. I questioned the religion many many times. I've
Speaker 1: read the script and questioned it in order to distill
Speaker 1: those truths. Right, I'm in a place in my journey where,
Speaker 1: you know, the two have aligned right now, and I've
Speaker 1: actually come full circle back to my religion with a
Speaker 1: new understanding of what it means to be spiritual, with
Speaker 1: a new understanding of what it means to help the self,
Speaker 1: to support the self, what is well being look like,
Speaker 1: and all these elements. While you don't violate what I
Speaker 1: call you know, universal principles and truths of you know,
Speaker 1: how God has created the universe and who we are
Speaker 1: and why would come here. So I guess my question
Speaker 1: is did you find any practices or anything that you
Speaker 1: were doing that you felt like were in conflict with
Speaker 1: universal truth? For me personally, I mean, nobody would be
Speaker 1: the judge of this, right unless you know you need
Speaker 1: to judge this for yourself based on your own discovery
Speaker 1: of your own universal truth right where you find to
Speaker 1: be true for yourself. And so from that space, if
Speaker 1: you come into the self help industry, everything is packaged, right,
Speaker 1: and you don't know what you're getting because there's a
Speaker 1: person who believes a certain way and brings about practices
Speaker 1: from ancient civilizations and ancient places, and you think this
Speaker 1: could be helpful for your well being. But at the
Speaker 1: end of day, this could be something that exposes you
Speaker 1: two different philosophies that might be in violation of your
Speaker 1: own belief system. That to me was like, you know,
Speaker 1: I didn't know. As a consumer right, in the consuming part,
Speaker 1: I was obsessed of learning all as much as I
Speaker 1: could to be able to fix myself and feel better.
Speaker 1: And in the consuming part, I started to accumulate beliefs
Speaker 1: that have not served me at all. You start to
Speaker 1: feel like you've got at all. You start to feel
Speaker 1: like you're and this is great. I can sense I've
Speaker 1: got my sixth cents happening this. I've advanced my consciousness.
Speaker 1: Now I can see through your energy. I can actually
Speaker 1: diagnose you from far, because if you've had a session
Speaker 1: with me, I would be tapping into your energy and saying,
Speaker 1: you know, you've got this problem going on. So I'd
Speaker 1: be more like, what is the right word for this,
Speaker 1: A fortune teller, if you will. And these things do
Speaker 1: not come just like that. They come through dedicated practice,
Speaker 1: but also dabbling into new age practice, dabbling into the
Speaker 1: dark side of it as well, the black magic, the
Speaker 1: white magic, the cult, all of these realms. They're inseparable
Speaker 1: right now from the self help industry. And the question
Speaker 1: is how do you stay in integrity with what you
Speaker 1: firmly believe in while engaging in those practices. Right So,
Speaker 1: to me, this is what what my sister has awakened
Speaker 1: in me to be discerning, to be able to ask
Speaker 1: those questions and order to ensure I stayed in integrity.
Speaker 1: I think this takes me to a place I was
Speaker 1: going to go later in the conversation, but I think
Speaker 1: this is a good place to jump to it because
Speaker 1: there were several words that showed up to me a
Speaker 1: lot in your writing that I thought would be useful,
Speaker 1: and one of them was values. And I think you're
Speaker 1: speaking to this a little bit with what you're saying
Speaker 1: that it's important to be able to know kind of
Speaker 1: what your values are and make sure that practices that
Speaker 1: you're engaging with are not in violation of any of those.
Speaker 1: Would that be a good place to transition? Does that
Speaker 1: make sense or my putting words in your mouth? Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is exactly how I say it. We are born
Speaker 1: with what is called, you know, blueprint of values. Right,
Speaker 1: your values would be different than mine. And by the way,
Speaker 1: values are not chosen, they are revealed. So you reveal
Speaker 1: your own values through your own understanding of life, what
Speaker 1: you tolerate, what you don't tolerate, what you are drawn towards,
Speaker 1: what you're staying away from. Right, this is where values
Speaker 1: are actually showing themselves to you. And values are pretty
Speaker 1: much a signature of the soul, right, A human soul
Speaker 1: would have its own distinct values of saying, you know
Speaker 1: what I value truth and to me, that's what I'm
Speaker 1: going to seek in my life. Right and values don't
Speaker 1: have to do with morality. They are pretty much attributes
Speaker 1: and qualities and ways of being that we all strive
Speaker 1: to achieve in our life. And you'll see that dream
Speaker 1: you've been seeking. You want to be a singer, What
Speaker 1: your soul was asking for is actually a state of
Speaker 1: being in which you know you're you're expressing yourself in
Speaker 1: a musical way. Let's say, right, and it seeks a
Speaker 1: state of freedom, for example, or it seeks a state
Speaker 1: of compassion through doing good work. So those are elements
Speaker 1: in which you know our signature shows up. And this
Speaker 1: is where if your passion meets talent, this is where
Speaker 1: your purpose is born. Right, you have those values and
Speaker 1: your your passion meets that meet service, that's when your
Speaker 1: purpose is born. So values are pretty much what defines
Speaker 1: the how of what we live our lives. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: say that the key to live in a fully realized
Speaker 1: life is to pay attention to values. These are ways
Speaker 1: to be, not things to do. They're like directions on
Speaker 1: the compass. We always know which way to travel. Let's
Speaker 1: go a little bit more into that. But first I
Speaker 1: just want to touch on something you said a moment ago.
Speaker 1: But the values are not the same as morality because
Speaker 1: we often, particularly here in the US, those two words
Speaker 1: mean a very similar thing. We talk about Christian values.
Speaker 1: You know, people will say Christian values or family values.
Speaker 1: So in what way is value different than morality? You
Speaker 1: sort of said it, but I'd like to just tweez
Speaker 1: it apart a little further. Sure, if you look at
Speaker 1: values that I think there are estates of being, you'll
Speaker 1: see that they actually represent moral values if you're being
Speaker 1: a moral person, and they also represent sides of you
Speaker 1: that you would like to express. Right. So values are
Speaker 1: pretty much what you're drawn towards in your life. That
Speaker 1: to me, how I distinct values. Morality is pretty much
Speaker 1: a philosophical thing based on an understanding of life and
Speaker 1: an understanding of what is right and what is wrong. Right. Values,
Speaker 1: on the other side, are things that pull you towards
Speaker 1: a certain direction, and it could pull you towards moral values. Right,
Speaker 1: So when we all have them, the good side of
Speaker 1: us is always drawn towards what is good, what is moral,
Speaker 1: what is just? Let's say, what is truth? Based all
Speaker 1: of these elements are pretty much values. That we're drawn towards.
Speaker 1: But on the other side, when when you look at
Speaker 1: your ordinary, everyday life, there are values such as adventure,
Speaker 1: their values such as freedom. There's values such as giving.
Speaker 1: There are values such as let's say, love and passion. Um.
Speaker 1: Those are also elements that make us up as a
Speaker 1: human being as a whole. Right. It doesn't have to
Speaker 1: all be all about morality. It's a combination, and each
Speaker 1: one of us have a signature of those values that
Speaker 1: we go by in our lives. Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1: I think I've done some exercises in my past where
Speaker 1: somebody might ask you to look at picking a couple
Speaker 1: of values, and there might be like thirty or forty
Speaker 1: things on that list, you know, like you said, adventure, love, truth, service.
Speaker 1: You know, there's a whole bunch of different things and
Speaker 1: sort of finding the ones that we might all agree. Well,
Speaker 1: in general, those things are all good, but there's a
Speaker 1: few of these that I feel particularly drawn to that
Speaker 1: really speak more to who I am and what's most
Speaker 1: important to me exactly. Yeah, you say that you can
Speaker 1: pinpoint one of your values by noticing what gives you
Speaker 1: a feeling of wrongness and then asking what would be
Speaker 1: the opposite. So, for example, if you're offended by callousness
Speaker 1: or disregard for people who are vulnerable, perhaps compassion is
Speaker 1: a central value for you. Sometimes seeing what you don't
Speaker 1: want will inform you of what you truly do want
Speaker 1: correct correct, and to you, that's your soul kind of saying, hey,
Speaker 1: this is what we want to see in our life.
Speaker 1: We want to see more of this, but not more
Speaker 1: of that. Yeah, I love that idea, and I think
Speaker 1: that can be a really helpful orientation because we very
Speaker 1: often get stuck on what we don't want to see
Speaker 1: and the way people are behaving that we don't think
Speaker 1: is right. But I think that as a world, we
Speaker 1: don't have enough focus on what we do want to
Speaker 1: see and how to bring that about instead of standing
Speaker 1: in opposition to something all the time and not that
Speaker 1: they're is not things that we don't need to stand
Speaker 1: in opposition to. But there's also a really powerful thing
Speaker 1: of pivoting out of that into well, this is what
Speaker 1: I do stand for, you know, and what I want
Speaker 1: to cultivate and bring more of this thing into the world.
Speaker 1: It's a it's a more proactive stance, absolutely, and whatever
Speaker 1: you don't want to see in your opposing is actually
Speaker 1: telling you, Okay, what do you stand for? Then? Right,
Speaker 1: there's always the flip side of it, right, And if
Speaker 1: you want to stay on the on the camp that
Speaker 1: is complaining and always judging, or if you want to
Speaker 1: stay on the camp that actually is proactive and wants
Speaker 1: to pursue something and restore the goodness that you see
Speaker 1: for yourself, for your community, or for the world. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it makes me think of We have interviewed a guy,
Speaker 1: it's been several months now. His name is Kelly Wilson.
Speaker 1: He's a Acceptance and Commitment Therapy UM. He's one of
Speaker 1: the people that was instrumental in the founding of that
Speaker 1: that form of therapy, Acceptance and Commitment therapy. And he
Speaker 1: said that our value, us and vulnerabilities are sort of
Speaker 1: poured out of the same vessel. And I loved that
Speaker 1: idea that if we look at our vulnerabilities or in
Speaker 1: this case, that sense of wrongness that you described, that
Speaker 1: can often point us to what we do value. Absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 1: I wrote about two things. One with the human condition
Speaker 1: is under let's say two governing laws. One is the
Speaker 1: law of evolution and one is the law of awakening. Now,
Speaker 1: the law of evolution dictates that we have an ego. Right,
Speaker 1: we have pain points if you listen to it, her tolly,
Speaker 1: and that's the language he uses. Right, we have a
Speaker 1: side of us that is wounded, and we have a
Speaker 1: side of us that is probably in connection to evil
Speaker 1: or in connection to something that is dark or the shadow. Right,
Speaker 1: and we have a side of us that is good.
Speaker 1: And it's all about seeking goodness and showing the bright
Speaker 1: side of us. Right. Um, So the law evolution is
Speaker 1: all about your own personal growth and your own personal realization.
Speaker 1: And self actualization happens through the process of you recognizing
Speaker 1: the dark side of you, recognizing the wounds and healing
Speaker 1: those as you move along in order to to realize
Speaker 1: who you are. But it's never a destination. It's a process.
Speaker 1: It's a lifelong process. Unlike you know how it is
Speaker 1: sold right now. You know unleas your potential potentiality is
Speaker 1: always a future element. But the here and now, how
Speaker 1: you are showing up is what is important and what
Speaker 1: has contributed to that development of you and me and
Speaker 1: everyone else have been a series of events, have been
Speaker 1: a series of insights, have been a series of realizations,
Speaker 1: have been a series of people that have come together
Speaker 1: in order for us to evolve as human beings. So
Speaker 1: that the law of evolution dictates us realizing our soul values,
Speaker 1: dictating us realizing our expression and owning it, and dictating
Speaker 1: us understanding our spiritual development. Second law is the law
Speaker 1: of awakening, which the whole book is all about a
Speaker 1: lot of awakening and what the spiritual journey looks like.
Speaker 1: And so say just a little bit more about how
Speaker 1: the law of awakening is different than the law of evolution. Sure,
Speaker 1: our souls have three primary needs. The need to find
Speaker 1: and connect to source, the need to find ways of being,
Speaker 1: and the need to find ways of expressing. So the
Speaker 1: law of evolution is all about you finding ways of
Speaker 1: being and expressing being, meaning my values, my essential qualities
Speaker 1: that I want to be in right. And then the
Speaker 1: other one would be how I'd like to express myself.
Speaker 1: The third soul need is about finding and connecting to source.
Speaker 1: So the law of awakening is all about the spiritual journey.
Speaker 1: How am I awakening to the ultimate truth of this universe?
Speaker 1: How can I answer the big questions of life? The
Speaker 1: minute you start asking those questions, your soul saying, hey, Eric,
Speaker 1: this is the time to wake up and let's ask
Speaker 1: those questions so we can find our answers. And we're
Speaker 1: not going to be eternally seeking, because we will actually
Speaker 1: arrive to a comfortable place in which we feel comfortable
Speaker 1: in and we're going to live in that. That's where
Speaker 1: we're going to practice s virutuality. Yeah, and another of
Speaker 1: the words that I pulled out of your work that
Speaker 1: I thought sort of summarized a big part of what
Speaker 1: you talk a lot about is the word disconnection. You say,
Speaker 1: disconnection is the root cause of all suffering. It starts
Speaker 1: when we disengage from or dismiss the divine present, and
Speaker 1: it leads us to essentially reject ourselves, our true nature
Speaker 1: and our purpose in this life. So say more about disconnection,
Speaker 1: and then let's maybe spend a few minutes on some
Speaker 1: means of reconnection. So a disconnection, in my case, manifested
Speaker 1: when I got married, I started to feel the responsibility
Speaker 1: of life. I was still a college student. I was
Speaker 1: still under that sense of responsibility. There's a there's a
Speaker 1: social conduct and things that we go with as our women.
Speaker 1: If you're married and you you're with or in laws,
Speaker 1: and there is a social gatherings that happened, then you
Speaker 1: have to honor. But I'm an introvert, right, so that's
Speaker 1: part of my nature, and I want to stay alone.
Speaker 1: I don't want to be socializing with other women. So
Speaker 1: to me, the disconnection happened as soon as I kind
Speaker 1: of got married, had my first child, and then felt like,
Speaker 1: this is not the life I wanted. I had a
Speaker 1: better life before I got married because that life had freedom,
Speaker 1: It had me expressing myself freely. But now I joined
Speaker 1: something that that felt like a betrayal to me. Right.
Speaker 1: So disconnection is when you start to betray yourself and
Speaker 1: you don't live the life that is an alignment with
Speaker 1: who you are. Another form of disconnection is when you're
Speaker 1: starting to say, I'm going to reject all forms of
Speaker 1: spiritual nourishment in my life. I don't want any of
Speaker 1: that and I'm going to close the door to that,
Speaker 1: and you feel empty inside and you feel purposeless, and
Speaker 1: you feel disconnected. So those two elements of disconnecting from yourself,
Speaker 1: and there's an element of disconnecting from nature as well.
Speaker 1: The way modern life has brought about modernity, if you will,
Speaker 1: it has isolated us from nature. We're living in three
Speaker 1: or four story buildings where we're far away from the
Speaker 1: earth and we're not actually plugged in, we're not connected.
Speaker 1: We're wearing shoes that are actually isolating us from the
Speaker 1: negative ions of the earth. We're living as far away
Speaker 1: from let's say, the rivers and the beach and all
Speaker 1: of these areas that actually feed our souls and give
Speaker 1: us a sense of connection and care for the earth.
Speaker 1: So those are the three level of disconnection. Disconnecting from source,
Speaker 1: disconnecting from nature, and disconnecting from our own set, our
Speaker 1: own nature. As well. About disconnection from or connection to
Speaker 1: other people, what is your thought on whether that's an
Speaker 1: essential form of disconnection? It is depending on your nature.
Speaker 1: So in personality temperament, we have people fall on a
Speaker 1: spectrum and in that spectrum you could be either extremely
Speaker 1: extroverted or extremely introverted, or you could fall somewhere in between.
Speaker 1: So your level of connection or disconnection is pretty much
Speaker 1: personal to you, right. It depends on how much interactivity
Speaker 1: do you need in your day with other people, and
Speaker 1: how does that sustain you and how does that feed
Speaker 1: your well view. So for the extrovert, they always want
Speaker 1: to be around people and to them that's the way
Speaker 1: that they could feel connected right to the introvert is
Speaker 1: all about my time and honoring that time, and that
Speaker 1: that's how they feel a sense of well being. That
Speaker 1: makes total sense. I think everybody is on a spectrum
Speaker 1: there and we have different needs. Yet disconnection is a
Speaker 1: big term for me in the work that I do,
Speaker 1: and it kind of in my own life being a
Speaker 1: recovering addict alcoholic, having dealt with the depression, I find
Speaker 1: that both those things are definitely conditions of disconnection, and
Speaker 1: that part of the cure for those things is connection
Speaker 1: to various different things. I think it can be a
Speaker 1: variety of different things. I think you've summarized it down
Speaker 1: into three useful categories, and I think anything else I
Speaker 1: would bring up would probably slot under those three. But
Speaker 1: this ability to connect to something bigger than our egoic structures,
Speaker 1: to me, is the heart of so much healing. You
Speaker 1: say that life is a dance between connection and disconnection,
Speaker 1: and every time we re establish our connection, we learned
Speaker 1: something new about our spirituality that would not have been
Speaker 1: possible for us to learn had we not experienced disconnection.
Speaker 1: Say a little bit more about that, and then say
Speaker 1: a little bit about how do I learn from disconnection?
Speaker 1: How does disconnection teach me how to reconnect? So this
Speaker 1: connection is pretty much a very uncomfortable state, right. It's
Speaker 1: a state in which we feel despair. It's a state
Speaker 1: when which we feel helpless and hopeless. Right. We feel
Speaker 1: like we're shut off from the world. We feel unsupported
Speaker 1: in many ways. Right. If you look at the way
Speaker 1: well being works, we're always moving away from pain towards
Speaker 1: pleasure or towards good, good vibes, good things. Right. So
Speaker 1: this connection is a state of pain that is part
Speaker 1: of your own evolution in a way that allows you
Speaker 1: to say, this experience is teaching me something new about myself,
Speaker 1: or teaching me something new about my partner, let's say,
Speaker 1: or teaching me something new about the world, or teaching
Speaker 1: me something new about my children. That I'm realizing this
Speaker 1: is going on. Right, But that doesn't happen to people
Speaker 1: who have not practiced self awareness, because to me, that's
Speaker 1: a key key element for you to be able to
Speaker 1: take advantage, if you will, of your experience and move
Speaker 1: from information to transformation. Right. So the information is the
Speaker 1: insight that you've gained, and then transformation saying you know
Speaker 1: what the next thing for me would be to reach out,
Speaker 1: let's say, or the next thing for me to be
Speaker 1: to mend this relationship, or the next thing would be
Speaker 1: for me to ask for help, right, whatever that might
Speaker 1: be for yourself. So a state of disconnection is a
Speaker 1: state of pain, and you want to move to a
Speaker 1: brighter state, which is a state of pleasure, let's call it. Right.
Speaker 1: So that to us is what those who cultivated self
Speaker 1: awareness would be able to do. That swiftly, will be
Speaker 1: able to kind of not not necessarily accelerated because you
Speaker 1: you can't actually but really use conscious awareness to move
Speaker 1: through the process and utilize the insights and allow those
Speaker 1: to integrate as part of who you are as a
Speaker 1: human being and move you to more balanced stage, if
Speaker 1: you will. O. Those who don't do that, they started
Speaker 1: becoming vindictive, They started becoming let's say, angry, They started
Speaker 1: becoming how you didna say, um, you know, stabbing people
Speaker 1: in the back. They have not learned from their lessons,
Speaker 1: and they actually don't want to evolve as human beings.
Speaker 1: I love that line, to move from information to transformation.
Speaker 1: I think that's a fun A mental part of growth
Speaker 1: of any kind I think these days is that because
Speaker 1: we have no shortage of information, we're overwhelmed by it
Speaker 1: in a lot of cases. But how we actually use
Speaker 1: that and we actually allow that to change us as
Speaker 1: really to me, where a lot of the interesting questions
Speaker 1: are I agree. Yeah. So another word that you use
Speaker 1: a lot, and it's the title of your earlier book,
Speaker 1: is surrender. And so I'd like to talk a little
Speaker 1: bit more about this. And I'm just going to read
Speaker 1: a line that you say, and then I'll let you
Speaker 1: kind of expound on it. You say, we have been
Speaker 1: so thoroughly steeped in a culture that convinces us of
Speaker 1: the power and value of sheer effort, we may see
Speaker 1: surrender as failure. In fact, surrendering is an act of
Speaker 1: great courage. It takes a lot of wisdom and faith
Speaker 1: to let things be. So say a little bit more
Speaker 1: about surrender and why it's so helpful. So a lot
Speaker 1: of people think that surrender is a state we're going
Speaker 1: to be in when we are in crisis. Right, If
Speaker 1: I'm in crisis, I can't help it. I've tried everything,
Speaker 1: and that's when I surrender. But if you understand what
Speaker 1: true surrender is is pretty much you going through the
Speaker 1: spiritual journey that allows you to find source, no source,
Speaker 1: and understand the qualities and attributes of that divine that
Speaker 1: gives you comfort, that gives you support, and then you
Speaker 1: align to that and you say this is my path, right,
Speaker 1: and then you move into a state of surrender where
Speaker 1: you're really finding grace and those moments where you need help,
Speaker 1: right in moments where you're a child in the operation
Speaker 1: room and you're praying so hard for their recovery, and
Speaker 1: that it happens right in the moment when you're in
Speaker 1: an accident and you just feel like this is it,
Speaker 1: this is gonna be my last moment, and then you
Speaker 1: pray and then it just you know, things turn around. Right.
Speaker 1: Those are pretty profound moments, and it's surrender is practice involuntarily,
Speaker 1: But what I'm talking about is actually the practice of
Speaker 1: surrender and your daily life. Right, how do you move
Speaker 1: from that being put down to your knees into a
Speaker 1: state in which you are waking up every day and saying,
Speaker 1: I surrender this day to you, and I'm going to
Speaker 1: be doing the best that I can, knowing that I've
Speaker 1: already have cultivated self awareness, knowing what are my values,
Speaker 1: knowing what I love to express and my gifts, and
Speaker 1: I'm going to do the best that I can in
Speaker 1: my sphere of influence. And then I let go the
Speaker 1: remaining elements to the divine right because I can't control.
Speaker 1: What I can't control is what our control ends, you know,
Speaker 1: what the divine takes over. Right, that's where the divine
Speaker 1: realm starts, where we we no longer can control any
Speaker 1: of the outcomes. So that's the state of surrenders, like
Speaker 1: you wake up every day knowing like you and I
Speaker 1: had technical difficulties at the very beginning of the call,
Speaker 1: and I was like, okay, fine, you know, if it
Speaker 1: happens great. If it doesn't, then it's fine too, Right,
Speaker 1: that's a state of surrender. I'm not going to feel
Speaker 1: bad about it, or I will not wallow or I fail. No,
Speaker 1: not at all. You know, if it happens great, So
Speaker 1: that's a state of surrender. Is a state of allowance
Speaker 1: of you know what God has in planned for you.
Speaker 1: Sorry about the airplane, that's okay. So you say that
Speaker 1: when we decide to embrace surrender in our lives, who
Speaker 1: are asked to become more and more discerning of what
Speaker 1: is within our control and what is not. And I
Speaker 1: like what you just said a minute ago, that we
Speaker 1: do what's in our control, and then at the end
Speaker 1: of that point is kind of where the divine takes
Speaker 1: over or whatever word you want to use at that place.
Speaker 1: But it's the place where all of a sudden it's
Speaker 1: kind of out of our hands. And I've often said
Speaker 1: on this show that I think the serenity prayer maybe
Speaker 1: the single wisest thing that was ever said, because it
Speaker 1: alleviates so much trouble in life. We can actually get
Speaker 1: that right, you know, let me change the things I
Speaker 1: can and let me accept the things I can't. And
Speaker 1: then of course that wisdom to know the difference is
Speaker 1: the ever elusive thing. How do I know when I've
Speaker 1: done what I can and what I can't. You say,
Speaker 1: the fact that we do have a zone of influence,
Speaker 1: this gray area in which we are able to exert
Speaker 1: some degree of will power and we're able to exert
Speaker 1: some degree of influence, creates the illusion that we are
Speaker 1: in control. And so I'm just curious in your own life,
Speaker 1: how do you go about figuring out, all, right, this
Speaker 1: is in my control and I need to exert my
Speaker 1: human will to the best of my ability to make
Speaker 1: this change, and how do I know when to let go?
Speaker 1: And again, some things are really obvious when we talk
Speaker 1: about this. Will be like, well, you know something like
Speaker 1: the weather, and I'm like, we all know the weather
Speaker 1: is out of our control, right, But in the day
Speaker 1: to day life things get a lot more nuanced and
Speaker 1: a lot harder to sort out than that. And let's
Speaker 1: go back to a temperament, if will, because it depends
Speaker 1: on on also your personality in a way in which
Speaker 1: are you an action taker kind of person or use
Speaker 1: somebody who was determined this is who you are, or
Speaker 1: are you somebody who who likes to be in the moment,
Speaker 1: do things as they happen, right, without any plan, without anything.
Speaker 1: It depends right, So people respond to the element of
Speaker 1: surrender in the way that they experience themselves. Right for
Speaker 1: me in my life, you asked me about how that
Speaker 1: manifests in my life, and I go get it. You know,
Speaker 1: I've got something. I'm going to go and do it.
Speaker 1: Whether my husband approves or doesn't approve, or he wants
Speaker 1: to do with it this way, I'm like, I'm just
Speaker 1: doing it. I'm going for it. That element of you
Speaker 1: taking action, you take action as much as you can.
Speaker 1: And there are elements as I do, as I'm taking
Speaker 1: the action knowing there is a possibility of this not working,
Speaker 1: and there is a possibility this working out, and so
Speaker 1: there's a fifty fifty chance, and I'm going to do
Speaker 1: the best that I can based on the knowledge and
Speaker 1: experience that I have right now, and then I'm going
Speaker 1: to let it come. I can't do more right, And
Speaker 1: there is always an element of time. You have to
Speaker 1: allow the passage of time for you to know the
Speaker 1: answer as well, because with the passage of time, you'll
Speaker 1: you'll see if an idea keeps coming back to you,
Speaker 1: it means you know there's something to pick up there,
Speaker 1: right or if if there is a bit of glimmer
Speaker 1: of hope that comes back in your life, you know
Speaker 1: there's something to pick up. But if there isn't any
Speaker 1: kind of like dies out, you know this store is closed,
Speaker 1: the job is not yours, and you move on. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I love that. I think bringing up our temperament is
Speaker 1: really important. It makes me think back to my early
Speaker 1: days in a a and at that point, you know,
Speaker 1: people stressed acceptance all the time. You know the acceptance
Speaker 1: is the answer to all our problems. They were always
Speaker 1: talking about acceptance, and I looked at and I thought
Speaker 1: about it. I was like, I think, maybe what I
Speaker 1: need more is the courage to change, because I think
Speaker 1: at that point in my life I was very much
Speaker 1: like well whatever, you know, kind of guy like whatever.
Speaker 1: And I don't know if that was really my temperament
Speaker 1: or that's where I was with my alcoholism, but I
Speaker 1: think there were a number of years and probably actually
Speaker 1: I think it's still true now, even though I think
Speaker 1: it's more balanced for me, I needed to know like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I probably need to air on the side of courage
Speaker 1: to change because I have such an accepting nature. And
Speaker 1: I think that's a really great point because I see
Speaker 1: the same thing and coaching clients that I work. Some
Speaker 1: coaching clients have a tendency to be too easy on
Speaker 1: themselves and they need some pushing and they need a little,
Speaker 1: you know, gentle nudging to try and do more and
Speaker 1: to be more accountable to themselves. And there's other people
Speaker 1: who are really really hard on themselves, and for those people,
Speaker 1: we need to work on more self compassion. So you
Speaker 1: can't say you need more of this. It really does
Speaker 1: depend on your temperament. Correct, Yeah, absolutely right. Can we
Speaker 1: touch back on on what you said about acceptance nature
Speaker 1: and what I find in this world right now that
Speaker 1: we live in with so much information coming our way.
Speaker 1: I just want to make a point here because we
Speaker 1: have to be aware of what's happening. With so much
Speaker 1: information coming at us from all sides, from our mobile phones,
Speaker 1: from our laptops, or from wherever we go in the
Speaker 1: street and the ads and everything. Do remember that we
Speaker 1: have a certain amount of will power that we apply
Speaker 1: in one day, and this touches us back onto how
Speaker 1: do we have courage to change? And how can you
Speaker 1: transform yourself? Right? When we're always bombarded with that information,
Speaker 1: we're actually making decisions and the modern day human makes
Speaker 1: decisions more than people did a hundred years ago, and
Speaker 1: one day more than people did and a hundred years ago,
Speaker 1: or they did in one single year. So there's a
Speaker 1: lot of information and we're always constantly making decisions and
Speaker 1: it's depleting our ability to make changes, profound and important
Speaker 1: changes in our lives. So this is something to be
Speaker 1: aware of in terms of it's called it information toxicusy,
Speaker 1: if you will, and it's just too much all at
Speaker 1: once coming at you, paralyzing your brain and your ability
Speaker 1: to process information, or your ability to make good choices
Speaker 1: and decisions for yourself, for your family, and for your life.
Speaker 1: So those are important elements to pay attention to in
Speaker 1: order to seek a better life and a better quality
Speaker 1: of life. I totally agree, and I think that is
Speaker 1: really sort of amazing, the amount of small decisions that
Speaker 1: we make and how connected we are and how much
Speaker 1: information comes at us. And that's why I love that
Speaker 1: line about the difference between information and transformation, because we
Speaker 1: have way more information than we could ever possibly need,
Speaker 1: and a whole lot less transformation than most of us
Speaker 1: would like to see in our own lives. So that
Speaker 1: leads us very well to one last thing that you
Speaker 1: wrote that I'll read and let you expound on, and
Speaker 1: then we'll we'll wrap up. You say that most of
Speaker 1: us live life from the outside in. In other words,
Speaker 1: we react to what comes to us rather than acting
Speaker 1: from what is within us. And I wanted to read
Speaker 1: that because I think it speaks very much to what
Speaker 1: you were just saying about if we are constantly consuming information,
Speaker 1: and you are actually saying that pretty early on too,
Speaker 1: about if all I'm doing is consuming things, and I
Speaker 1: am reacting to what comes to me rather than allowing
Speaker 1: what's happening to come from a deeper place within me.
Speaker 1: So say a little bit more about that and then
Speaker 1: we'll wrap up. Sure again going back to the information
Speaker 1: transformation paradigm, to understand that we are information consuming being.
Speaker 1: This is what we love to do, seeking knowledge and
Speaker 1: understanding and troubleshooting and doing all that. This is some
Speaker 1: think brilliant. We love to do that and we've always
Speaker 1: done it since the beginning of humanity, in the beginning
Speaker 1: of time, right, So to understand that is an essential
Speaker 1: nature of who we are is a good thing. But
Speaker 1: processing affirmation also takes time. Integrating information takes time. All
Speaker 1: of these elements are very important because if you've seen
Speaker 1: Lenda Bearance model, just done research on this, and her
Speaker 1: model of the self is an interesting model. She starts
Speaker 1: with describing what is called core self, which is pretty
Speaker 1: much the self that who we are, the insight self.
Speaker 1: It's your your soul, the qualities that you come with,
Speaker 1: the tendencies, expressions, your essence, if you will. This is
Speaker 1: who you are at your core, right and from that
Speaker 1: space there is a contextual self that comes about which
Speaker 1: is a reactionary self to the environment. The context. Yourself
Speaker 1: is myself that says school is teaching me this, or
Speaker 1: or I have to be a mother here, or have
Speaker 1: to be a dad here, or have to be a
Speaker 1: sister here. So this is based on the context and
Speaker 1: the environment. And then finally you have the developmental self,
Speaker 1: which is the self that develops over time. Right, this
Speaker 1: is who you become as an adult. You become more adapted,
Speaker 1: you become more let's say, well behaved, you adapt to
Speaker 1: certain situations, you develop emotional intelligence, You've developed a brighter,
Speaker 1: bigger understanding of who you are in your life. Right,
Speaker 1: But the core self stays intact. The courself doesn't go away.
Speaker 1: The courself is what feeds you. So living from the
Speaker 1: inside out is all about allowing the core self to
Speaker 1: take the lead as well, giving her space, allowing the
Speaker 1: core of who you are to let's say, unpack itself
Speaker 1: into the outside environment and the way it manifests for
Speaker 1: me in my life. I love to have a connection
Speaker 1: with nature. Therefore I created a beautiful garden outdoor. I
Speaker 1: made sure. This is like, I can't live without a
Speaker 1: beautiful garden. Right. The wait manifest for me. I love
Speaker 1: to to have beauty in my environment, and there's always
Speaker 1: plants and flowers all around, because that's how it manifests
Speaker 1: right the core of who you are. I wear colorful
Speaker 1: scars because it's this color that is I love to
Speaker 1: do right. It's part of who I am. So allowing
Speaker 1: the inner to exhibit itself in the outer is very
Speaker 1: important for you and for your well being, for you
Speaker 1: to express who you are excellent. Well, thank you so
Speaker 1: much Iman for coming on the show. I've really enjoyed
Speaker 1: this conversation and I really enjoyed your work, and thank
Speaker 1: you so much. Thank you Eric for having me. I
Speaker 1: really enjoyed our conversation as well. Thank you. If what
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