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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

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Speaker 2: writing about true crime.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling.

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Speaker 3: True crimes, and I weigh in using modern forensic techniques

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Speaker 3: to bring new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 4: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 4: Hey, Kate, how are you today?

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Speaker 1: I'm well, Paul, how about you?

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Speaker 4: I am?

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Speaker 3: I am doing good. In fact, I'm looking forward to

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Speaker 3: the Christmas break. I'm going to be in Hawaii for

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Speaker 3: part of that.

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Speaker 1: Hawaii?

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Speaker 2: Really, how do I get that gig? Can I come

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Speaker 2: to Do you want to do a show? And I'm

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Speaker 2: sure I can find a Hawaii story.

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Speaker 1: We can do.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, no, Go visit my parents who live out there,

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Speaker 3: and quick trip out, quick trip back. It's been a

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Speaker 3: couple of years since I've been out there, so it'll

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Speaker 3: be fun.

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Speaker 2: Do you go over Christmas Eve Christmas Day? Or are

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Speaker 2: you kind of going around it?

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Speaker 3: Go around for sure, try to avoid, you know, the

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Speaker 3: real crush of the of the travel. But it's still

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Speaker 3: going to be tough, you know, anytime during that period

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Speaker 3: is a tough travel.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm going to really try to muster up some

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Speaker 2: sympathy for you. Wi You're lying on a beach somewhere

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Speaker 2: seeing your parents on the holidays while I'm in Texas

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Speaker 2: freezing with the definition of freezing in Texas being probably

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Speaker 2: about fifty degrees.

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Speaker 4: Well, I'll be thinking about you at least. How's that?

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Speaker 1: Well, thank you.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate that this is our kind of holiday Christmas

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Speaker 2: ye episode, and I have a Christmas story for you.

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Speaker 2: But as you know, we are a true crime show,

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Speaker 2: so this is definitely not about Santa Claus. This is

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Speaker 2: definitely a story about the Christmas holidays and some of

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Speaker 2: the good and bad that comes with I think investigating

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Speaker 2: around the holidays.

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Speaker 1: Did you work on Christmas? Ever?

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Speaker 3: You know, I don't recall being called out on Christmas Day,

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Speaker 3: though I'm not entirely sure about that. I definitely was

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Speaker 3: called out New Year's Eve, New Year's Day, you know,

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Speaker 3: over the course of my career when I was actively

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Speaker 3: on call.

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Speaker 4: This is a busy time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, families get together, family strife rears its ugly head,

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Speaker 3: somebody ends up dead.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I see it. There's economics involved. I mean,

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Speaker 2: there's financial strain, there's right stressful families, all that kind

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Speaker 2: of stuff happening, and then you have to think that

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Speaker 2: you have investigators, you know, like in journalism. We had

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Speaker 2: definitely had people on call, and I worked several Christmases,

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Speaker 2: many Christmas Is actually, but we had less people than

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Speaker 2: we we normally would have, and I imagine that has

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Speaker 2: to be the same for police at least that was

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Speaker 2: the case in what we're about to deal with.

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Speaker 3: Of course, within the department there's mandatory staffing aspects. However,

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Speaker 3: many people were granted time off as long as you know,

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Speaker 3: the fundamental services were covered. I know what we would do,

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Speaker 3: because this is what I was on call for CSI

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Speaker 3: work while I was with the lab is. We would

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Speaker 3: try to rotate the holidays across the staff so the

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Speaker 3: same person wasn't on call the next year for Christmas

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Speaker 3: and or New Year's you know, we are always trying

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Speaker 3: to at least spread that pain out, but we did

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Speaker 3: not increase our staffing during that time, even though it's

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Speaker 3: a busy time historically.

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Speaker 2: Well, this I think has in some ways the disadvantage

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Speaker 2: of this happening on Christmas. Let's do a couple of

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Speaker 2: things before we jump in. Number One, this is a

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Speaker 2: case suggested by a listener.

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Speaker 1: Love that.

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Speaker 2: Number two, my friend who's a fantastic author, Abbot Taylor,

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Speaker 2: who has been on my show a couple of times now.

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Speaker 2: She's also known as Karen Abbott. She's a wonderful author.

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Speaker 2: She wrote about this in her blog, which is how

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Speaker 2: I found it. I was reading something that she had written,

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Speaker 2: and I thought, oh my gosh, this would be a

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Speaker 2: great Buried Bones episode because it is a Christmas mystery,

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Speaker 2: big mystery mixed in with some conspiracy, which I like

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Speaker 2: a good conspiracy sometimes, and we certainly have that here.

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Speaker 2: So I would buckle up and get ready because you know,

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Speaker 2: we are going to be heading into I think, a

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Speaker 2: time period that's really going to be interesting and also

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Speaker 2: a family. There's a lot of stuff happening where we

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Speaker 2: have to figure out what happened.

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Speaker 4: All right, Well, ho ho ho, I'm ready for you.

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Speaker 1: Here we go. Let's set the scene.

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Speaker 2: In my family, Christmas Eve is the big thing, big

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Speaker 2: big deal. That's where we have dinner at my mom's house. Traditional.

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Speaker 2: Everybody gets stressed up relatively, We have a nice dinner

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Speaker 2: that night, and then Christmas Day is a lot more

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Speaker 2: laid back.

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Speaker 1: I think we've probably talked about this before. You know.

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Speaker 2: The kids are up at five inexplicably and open presence,

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Speaker 2: and then we're kind of done. We talked up later

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Speaker 2: that day and sometimes we'll have a good dinner afterwards.

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Speaker 2: But Christmas Eve is a really big deal in our family.

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Speaker 2: And is that that big of a deal for you

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Speaker 2: too or no.

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Speaker 3: We sort of have a tradition and it comes from

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Speaker 3: my wife's side where she has to watch Christmas Story.

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Speaker 1: Doll she try out kid.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's that's kind of the big event. And

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Speaker 3: then the kids get to pick a present from out

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Speaker 3: of the tree that they want to open on Christmas Eve.

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Speaker 3: You know, that's kind of it, which I we never

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Speaker 3: did that in my when I was growing up for Christmas,

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Speaker 3: and so for.

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Speaker 4: Me, I'm like, no, no, no, they need to wait

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Speaker 4: until the morning.

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Speaker 3: It's like, oh, come on, let them have you know,

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Speaker 3: the kids are older now, they actually sleep in on

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Speaker 3: Christmas Morning, which is nice.

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Speaker 1: It sounds really nice. Yeah, so so fantastic, But.

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Speaker 3: I wouldn't say that we make a real big deal

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Speaker 3: out of Christmas Eve.

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Speaker 1: All right, well, this is a Christmas story.

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Speaker 2: I would say only in the idea that I think

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Speaker 2: we are undermanned here with investigators, which is never good

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Speaker 2: news for you and I. When the people you know

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Speaker 2: in our stories don't have enough either forensic experience or

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Speaker 2: forensic tools or just like manpower, things tend to go

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Speaker 2: wrong here. And I feel like this is kind of

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Speaker 2: where we're heading a little bit with this story, which

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Speaker 2: is still a mystery and I.

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Speaker 1: Can't wait to tell you about it.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So this is Christmas of nineteen forty five. World

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Speaker 2: War Two has just ended. Things are not settled obviously

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Speaker 2: in the United States, and we're focusing in on a

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Speaker 2: family that immigrated from Italy. And so the patriarch of

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Speaker 2: this family is a guy named George Sadu, and he

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Speaker 2: was born in Italy in eighteen ninety five. He came

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Speaker 2: to the United States at the age of thirteen. So

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Speaker 2: we're actually going to West Virginia for this story. So

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Speaker 2: the main character, as I said right now, is his

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Speaker 2: name is George, and he finds employment on the Pennsylvania railroads.

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Speaker 2: He's like toting supplies to laborers. That's a job. And

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Speaker 2: he eventually lands in West Virginia. He gets a job

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Speaker 2: in trucking. He falls in love with a woman named

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Speaker 2: Jenny Cipriani. George and Jenny eventually marry and they settle

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Speaker 2: in a small Appalachian town called Fayettesville, West Virginia, where

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Speaker 2: they connect with other Italian Americans in the community. So

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Speaker 2: here's where things get complicated. You know, I told you

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Speaker 2: this is a little got some conspiracy elements to it.

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Speaker 2: So George Sado is very well respected. The problem is,

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Speaker 2: you know, when they moved to West Virginia, within those

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Speaker 2: few years before nineteen forty five, before what happened happens,

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Speaker 2: he becomes very outspoken about Mussolini before Mussolini is killed, okay,

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Speaker 2: and it causes a lot of tension. He has gotten

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Speaker 2: into arguments with other people of Italian heritage in Fayetteville

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Speaker 2: over these political different pferences. We have not done a

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Speaker 2: ton of stories on political conspiracies. This is very much

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Speaker 2: something we need to think about. We have talked about

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Speaker 2: the black Glove Oh yeah, you know, society. We've talked

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Speaker 2: about that a couple of times, and we've talked about

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Speaker 2: the Cuban mob in New York in that one case

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Speaker 2: of the restaurant here who was killed. But we really

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Speaker 2: haven't gotten too much into it otherwise, and this is

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Speaker 2: going to be, I think, a pretty big part of

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Speaker 2: the story. So George is very outspoken, he's very political.

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Speaker 2: He hates Mussolini. There are people in this small town

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Speaker 2: who love Mussolini or you know, have reverence to him,

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Speaker 2: and so already there's sort of tension there to begin with.

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Speaker 2: So I just want to set the scene by saying,

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Speaker 2: George seems like a great guy.

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Speaker 1: They end up with ten kids.

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Speaker 2: Cool, wow, great guy, ten kids, seems like a happy

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Speaker 2: home life. But he is making some pretty big enemies

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Speaker 2: over a very controversial figure for sure. So that said,

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Speaker 2: they welcome their first child, John, in nineteen twenty three.

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Speaker 2: They have ten kids, as I said, by nineteen forty three,

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Speaker 2: and George goes on to establish his own trucking company

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Speaker 2: and they have like a comfy, middle class lifestyle, which

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Speaker 2: is great coming from a guy who was an immigrant

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Speaker 2: at the age of thirteen, who you know, was delivering

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Speaker 2: goods to or delivering supplies to railroad workers to then

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Speaker 2: starting his own trucking company. So things are going really

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Speaker 2: well in late nineteen forty five. So this is after

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Speaker 2: World War Two, after Mussolini has died, but George is

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Speaker 2: still i'm sure, spouting off about you know, Italy and

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Speaker 2: fascism and everything that's happening. A few bizarre things start

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Speaker 2: to happen that George and his wife talked to investigators about.

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Speaker 2: The first thing occurs in the fall a guy shows

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Speaker 2: up looking for work. Okay, so during this visit, the

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Speaker 2: man points to two fuse boxes outside of George's house

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Speaker 2: and reportedly tells him this is going to cause a

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Speaker 2: fire someday. And George thinks this is a weird observation

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Speaker 2: because someone from the power company had checked the wiring

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Speaker 2: and said, your boxes look great, no problem, you don't

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Speaker 2: need to upgrade.

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Speaker 1: Or do anything.

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Speaker 2: This might not be anything, but it upsets him and

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Speaker 2: kind of creeps him out that some stranger he doesn't

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Speaker 2: even know is making a comment about there being a fire.

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Speaker 2: So somebody who was outspoken politically in such a tense atmosphere,

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Speaker 2: I think is probably picking up on all sorts of

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Speaker 2: things that could be innocuous when you think, and.

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Speaker 3: I'm wondering, is George perceiving this statement by the man

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Speaker 3: as being sort of a threat. Yes, So this man

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Speaker 3: shows up says I need a job, and oh, by

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Speaker 3: the way, those two fuse boxes could cause a fire.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's saying, what are you talking about? These are

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Speaker 2: in great condition. And it sounds like the guy was like, well,

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Speaker 2: I'm just telling you, you know, this is what I see.

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Speaker 1: I think it made him nervous.

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Speaker 2: But I'm betting if you're spouting out about Mussolini in

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Speaker 2: an Italian American community that is probably pretty pro Mussolini.

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Speaker 1: A lot of stuff makes you nervous.

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Speaker 3: And it may also be the body language that this

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Speaker 3: man used, and he made that statement which set George

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Speaker 3: off you and I was like, okay, this guy is

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Speaker 3: he's threatening me.

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Speaker 2: There's another man that shows up not long after. So

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Speaker 2: based on reporting, we don't have a ton of information

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Speaker 2: on this Paul. But based on reporting, it sounds like

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Speaker 2: the family knows this guy, but he's not often identified,

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Speaker 2: you know, by name and source material. He's described as

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Speaker 2: a local insurance salesman and he is hoping to sell

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Speaker 2: the family life insurance policies. The context here is a

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Speaker 2: bit unclear, but it seems like there's an argument that

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Speaker 2: breaks out between the salesman and George, perhaps because of

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Speaker 2: the execution of Mussolini earlier that year. I mean, this

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Speaker 2: is just something that George harped on. So before the

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Speaker 2: salesman leaves, they're in this fight. He starts to leave

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Speaker 2: and he says, according to George, your goddamn house is

236
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Speaker 2: going to go up in smoke and your children are

237
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Speaker 2: going to be destroyed. You are going to be paid

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Speaker 2: for the dirty remarks you have been making about Mussoline.

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Speaker 3: The second man is aware of George's stances on Mussolini

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Speaker 3: over time. So obviously, now, okay, this wasn't just this

241
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Speaker 3: guy showing up and then there's a spontaneous argument over Mussolini.

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Speaker 3: This guy already has a bias against George because of

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Speaker 3: Georgia's stances against Mussolini.

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Speaker 1: I think that's right.

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Speaker 2: So later in an afternoon, shortly before Christmas, So what

246
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Speaker 2: happens happens on Christmas Eve into Christmas Day. Later, on

247
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Speaker 2: an afternoon before Christmas, George's kids notice there's a man

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Speaker 2: sitting inside a parked car, on the highway near their home.

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Speaker 2: I think they must mean like pulled over on the

250
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Speaker 2: shoulder or something. They think this man is watching them

251
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Speaker 2: as they walk from school to home.

252
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Speaker 1: But we don't know a lot about it.

253
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Speaker 2: It's just that the kids are saying, this guy was

254
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Speaker 2: watching us, and we don't know what the intentions were.

255
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Speaker 2: They didn't know who it was, They couldn't describe the car.

256
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Speaker 2: And these are all little kids. He has a ton

257
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Speaker 2: of little kids.

258
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Speaker 3: Right, so you know, and this is where it now.

259
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Speaker 3: If you're sitting in a car and you see a

260
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Speaker 3: few kids walking, you know, sometimes you'll glance over and

261
00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:10,040
Speaker 3: notice the kids, or you know, you got your predators. Right,

262
00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:12,000
Speaker 3: they're sitting in the car, they see the kids, and

263
00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,319
Speaker 3: now they're tunnel visioned on the kids, and now that

264
00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:20,360
Speaker 3: creep factor comes out. These kids are at least sensing

265
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Speaker 3: some sort of creep factor. Now in the context of

266
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Speaker 3: this story, it sounds like they're thinking it's more in

267
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Speaker 3: line with the like the two previous men, who are

268
00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:36,320
Speaker 3: you know, one indirectly is indicating that George's house is

269
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Speaker 3: going to burn down. The second man explicitly states his

270
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Speaker 3: house is going to burn down because of the Mussolini

271
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Speaker 3: political aspects. So these kids are in tune that, oh,

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Speaker 3: something is going on, you know, with dad and the family,

273
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Speaker 3: and they're going, this guy isn't right.

274
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Speaker 4: Who's sitting in the.

275
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Speaker 2: Car, And this must have just set George and Jenny

276
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Speaker 2: around the holidays on edge. I mean, as if they're

277
00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:05,520
Speaker 2: not on edge already from World War Two and Mussolini

278
00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:09,040
Speaker 2: and the execution. This is not good. It's Christmas Eve.

279
00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:13,800
Speaker 2: It's a little after midnight, so technically Christmas Day. Everyone

280
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Speaker 2: is asleep. And here's the list. I haven't told you

281
00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:19,400
Speaker 2: about the ages of the kids. So you've got George Senior,

282
00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:23,200
Speaker 2: and you've got Jenny. You've got John, their son who

283
00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:26,560
Speaker 2: is twenty three. They have a twenty one year old

284
00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:30,160
Speaker 2: son named Joe, but he's in the military. So they've

285
00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:32,840
Speaker 2: got John's twenty three, Marion seventeen. These are all people

286
00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:35,800
Speaker 2: in the house. George who is sixteen, Maurice who is

287
00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:40,680
Speaker 2: fourteen or fifteen, Martha's twelve, Lewis's nine, and Jenny Junior

288
00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:43,480
Speaker 2: is eight, Betty is five or six, and Sylvia's two.

289
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Speaker 2: And then of course I said, you know there's a

290
00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:48,480
Speaker 2: son who's out the military. They're all at home. Okay,

291
00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,280
Speaker 2: so you're with me so far packed house? Yes, twelve

292
00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:55,400
Speaker 2: thirty am. Christmas Day just became Christmas Day. The phone rings,

293
00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:58,360
Speaker 2: and this is where the trouble starts. Jenny and George

294
00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:00,880
Speaker 2: have a bedroom on the ground floor. She gets out

295
00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:03,600
Speaker 2: of bed, she heads into another room to answer it.

296
00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:07,040
Speaker 2: The caller is a woman. Jenny does not recognize the voice,

297
00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:10,200
Speaker 2: so the woman asks for an unfamiliar name, somebody who

298
00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:14,160
Speaker 2: doesn't live there. Jenny can hear laughter and glasses clinking

299
00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:16,920
Speaker 2: in the background. Sounds like she's at a party. Jenny,

300
00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:18,720
Speaker 2: I mean basically just says I think this is a

301
00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,600
Speaker 2: wrong number and hangs up the phone. Then as she

302
00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,840
Speaker 2: walks back to her bed, she notices that some of

303
00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:27,920
Speaker 2: the lights are still on around the house, and the

304
00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:31,080
Speaker 2: home's curtains are open, and the front door is unlocked.

305
00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:33,520
Speaker 1: All of this is happening, so.

306
00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,200
Speaker 2: You know, they went to bed and everything seemed to

307
00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:39,000
Speaker 2: have been secured, and then Jenny wakes up at twelve

308
00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,720
Speaker 2: thirty and there's all sorts of you know, there's lights

309
00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,160
Speaker 2: and all sorts of things happening, and she can see

310
00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:47,320
Speaker 2: that her daughter, Marian is asleep on the couch. So

311
00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:50,080
Speaker 2: she figures the other kids are upstairs in their bedrooms.

312
00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:53,280
Speaker 2: She closes the house and turns off the lights, and

313
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Speaker 2: then she climbs into bed, and then things start to happen.

314
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Speaker 2: So are we thinking, if something bad happens here, that

315
00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:02,560
Speaker 2: this phone call is a way to confirm that somebody's home.

316
00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:04,760
Speaker 2: Do you think if it's connected, well, it.

317
00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:09,400
Speaker 3: Could be the culture in our country with the landline phones.

318
00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:12,160
Speaker 3: I go back, you know, all the way to the

319
00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,120
Speaker 3: you know, the early seventies is probably my earliest memories

320
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Speaker 3: related to the phones in the house.

321
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Speaker 4: But this is, you know, nineteen forty five.

322
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Speaker 3: You know, this is well before there were there was

323
00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:26,400
Speaker 3: voicemail or voice recorders, you know, so if the phone

324
00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,240
Speaker 3: rang in your house, you answered it. And in fact,

325
00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,880
Speaker 3: burglars would take advantage of that. They would call houses

326
00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,560
Speaker 3: during the day to figure out when, you know, people

327
00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:39,520
Speaker 3: were home or not, and then they could start planning

328
00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:43,720
Speaker 3: which houses they were going to burglarize based on that

329
00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:47,680
Speaker 3: type of information. So this female calling at twelve thirty

330
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Speaker 3: am Christmas, you know, that's rude first, you know, but

331
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Speaker 3: I would not eliminate the possibility this was somebody trying

332
00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,880
Speaker 3: to check are they actually home or was it just

333
00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,680
Speaker 3: a random phone call. You know, maybe something like that happens.

334
00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:08,080
Speaker 3: She's drinking dials a number. But right now with kind

335
00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:10,800
Speaker 3: of the lead up with these strange men, sounds like

336
00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:14,879
Speaker 3: something bad's about to happen inside this house. That yeah,

337
00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:18,240
Speaker 3: I think that that is a distinct possibility that she

338
00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:22,480
Speaker 3: is checking making sure people are at the house before

339
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Speaker 3: whatever bad thing is going to happen.

340
00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:28,440
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, Jenny tries to blow this off. As I said,

341
00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:30,520
Speaker 2: She closes up the house, she turns out the lights.

342
00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:34,720
Speaker 2: Marian's on the sofa asleep. She gets back into bed.

343
00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:38,560
Speaker 2: She starts to doze off, and she hears a bang

344
00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:41,919
Speaker 2: on the roof and then the sound of something rolling.

345
00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:44,880
Speaker 2: She doesn't do anything about it. She goes back to sleep,

346
00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:47,919
Speaker 2: and when she wakes up about twenty minutes later, the

347
00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:50,800
Speaker 2: bedroom is filled with smoke and the house is on fire.

348
00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:52,880
Speaker 4: Sounds like a Molotov cocktail.

349
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Speaker 2: I mean, I've seen plenty of war movies, So how

350
00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:56,639
Speaker 2: does this work?

351
00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:57,080
Speaker 1: Somebody?

352
00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,240
Speaker 2: Is this like a grenade where somebody's pulling a pen

353
00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:00,639
Speaker 2: and throwing it or what.

354
00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:04,359
Speaker 3: There could be a wide variety of different types of

355
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:09,000
Speaker 3: incendiary devices that could have been used. When I use

356
00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:13,080
Speaker 3: the term Molotov cocktail. You know, there's different ways that

357
00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:15,399
Speaker 3: these can be constructed, but you just think of having

358
00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:17,920
Speaker 3: a bottle filled with a flammable liquid and you've got

359
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:21,120
Speaker 3: a wick like some torn T shirt stuffed in.

360
00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:22,480
Speaker 1: There, rag or something.

361
00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:24,280
Speaker 4: Okay, you light that, you throw it.

362
00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:26,959
Speaker 3: The idea is is that you know, when the glass

363
00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,840
Speaker 3: bottle breaks with this flammable fluid and you have the wick,

364
00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:34,679
Speaker 3: it catches fire. All that flammable fluid catches fire, and

365
00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:38,240
Speaker 3: of course the structure that it's on or thrown in

366
00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:39,800
Speaker 3: catches fire as well.

367
00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:42,760
Speaker 4: I'm not saying for sure.

368
00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:45,080
Speaker 3: That this is the device that was used, but that

369
00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:47,280
Speaker 3: you know, when you hear this bang, it sounds like,

370
00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:49,879
Speaker 3: you know, you have a heavy object that hits the

371
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,560
Speaker 3: roof and then when it starts rolling, well, yeah, that

372
00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:57,359
Speaker 3: sounds like something that would be akin to a Molotov cocktail.

373
00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:01,240
Speaker 3: But there could be, you know, a military raid device

374
00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:03,199
Speaker 3: that is being used to who knows mm.

375
00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:04,679
Speaker 1: And so this is happening.

376
00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,520
Speaker 2: Within a half an hour of this mysterious woman calling

377
00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:10,920
Speaker 2: and asking for a stranger's name, the room is filling

378
00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,959
Speaker 2: up with smoke. I will tell you that this of

379
00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:17,199
Speaker 2: course is a fire of course, this is scary for

380
00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,080
Speaker 2: the entire family. In some ways, I think the fire

381
00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:22,840
Speaker 2: is the least interesting part of this story. So just

382
00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:25,879
Speaker 2: hang in there, because this is not all about the fire.

383
00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,520
Speaker 2: I'm telling you. The bedroom is filled with smoke. She

384
00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,440
Speaker 2: and her husband wake up. George grabs the toddler, who

385
00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:35,359
Speaker 2: is Sylvia, who's sleeping with them, and they rush out

386
00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,200
Speaker 2: of the room. As they move through the smoky house,

387
00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,760
Speaker 2: this is a big place, George and Jenny yell to Marian,

388
00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:44,600
Speaker 2: who's on the couch. They also called all the kids upstairs.

389
00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:47,080
Speaker 2: I mean, so now we're talking about I think like

390
00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:50,240
Speaker 2: seven kids who were upstairs, two are downstairs, and ones

391
00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:51,800
Speaker 2: away with the military.

392
00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:53,520
Speaker 1: They call the kids upstairs.

393
00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:57,440
Speaker 2: But this blaze is going really quickly and the stairwell

394
00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:01,840
Speaker 2: going up becomes impassable. Only two children can make it

395
00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:05,600
Speaker 2: out down the stairs, so it's George Junior and John.

396
00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,640
Speaker 2: Let me go back up to their ages. George Junior

397
00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:13,840
Speaker 2: is sixteen and John is twenty three, and Marian is seventeen.

398
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,159
Speaker 2: And then they grabbed Sylvia. So we are talking about

399
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:19,960
Speaker 2: five of the ten kids. Because Joe's at the military.

400
00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:25,560
Speaker 2: Five of the ten kids are safe. George Junior gets out, Jenny, John,

401
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:30,640
Speaker 2: Mary and George Senior and Sylvia, and there are five

402
00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:34,199
Speaker 2: kids that are still inside. And these are the relatively

403
00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:37,560
Speaker 2: middle younger ones, right, So there's a fifteen year old,

404
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:39,080
Speaker 2: a twelve year old, a nine year old, an eight

405
00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,160
Speaker 2: year old, and a five or six year old who

406
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:46,000
Speaker 2: are still trapped. Then we've got George who's trying to

407
00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,920
Speaker 2: get to them. So he busts out a window, cuts

408
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,960
Speaker 2: himself pretty badly in the process. He tries to climb

409
00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:53,840
Speaker 2: back into the house, but there's too much smoke and

410
00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:57,880
Speaker 2: the flames are just going really quickly. It's immediately clear

411
00:20:57,920 --> 00:20:58,840
Speaker 2: he's not able to do this.

412
00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:02,080
Speaker 1: He runs. Now here's the conspiracy part. Boy.

413
00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:04,280
Speaker 2: He runs to the back of the property. He has

414
00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:07,720
Speaker 2: a huge ladder that is propped up against his house,

415
00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:09,760
Speaker 2: but he just keeps it there. But it's not there

416
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,480
Speaker 2: and it'll later be found seventy five feet away from

417
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:15,280
Speaker 2: where he always has it. So the ladder's gone. He

418
00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:18,440
Speaker 2: runs to his two work trucks. Remember he's a trucker,

419
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,280
Speaker 2: hoping he can drive one toward the house and park

420
00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:22,880
Speaker 2: it so that he could get up to the kids

421
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,120
Speaker 2: on the second floor window. Neither of these trucks will

422
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,600
Speaker 2: turn over, which is not normal. So you have a sad,

423
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:31,640
Speaker 2: concerned look on your face here with.

424
00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:32,160
Speaker 1: All of this.

425
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:36,920
Speaker 3: Well, obviously as a parent, one of the biggest fears

426
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:39,680
Speaker 3: was a fire happening in the middle of the night,

427
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,200
Speaker 3: you know, with where the kids are relative to where

428
00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:45,520
Speaker 3: my bedroom was at and having you know, seen the

429
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:49,639
Speaker 3: ramifications of what happens in fires to people, you know,

430
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:54,800
Speaker 3: this is a horrific in terms of the situation with

431
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,720
Speaker 3: the ladder and the two trucks, you know, most certainly

432
00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:03,040
Speaker 3: sounds like whoever set the house on fire wanted to

433
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:08,719
Speaker 3: limit the rescue aspect. That's showing intent. That's showing Okay,

434
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:12,760
Speaker 3: we want somebody to die, somebody to get burned up.

435
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:18,080
Speaker 3: It's interesting how quickly the flames are spreading. And I

436
00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,800
Speaker 3: don't have a good sense you know, from ginny hearing

437
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:24,239
Speaker 3: the bang and the rolling to you know, waking up

438
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,240
Speaker 3: and the house is filled with smoke. I don't have

439
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,639
Speaker 3: any sense in terms of the time frame, but we

440
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:32,359
Speaker 3: have that observation of the front door being unlocked, lights

441
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:36,720
Speaker 3: being on, flames are spreading very quickly, you know, did

442
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,440
Speaker 3: somebody come in and pour an accelerant throughout the house

443
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,840
Speaker 3: or in select locations in order to be able to

444
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:48,199
Speaker 3: causes fire to spread much faster than maybe normal. You know,

445
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,960
Speaker 3: I don't know, yeh, but that's I mean, this is sounding.

446
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:54,680
Speaker 3: It's sounding very sinister up front, for sure.

447
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 2: Okay, well let me keep going here. So later on

448
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 2: a witness will say that they have seen a man

449
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,880
Speaker 2: on site during the fire, like a neighbor or something

450
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,120
Speaker 2: during this fire, you know, and it could have been

451
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:13,199
Speaker 2: four in the morning, We don't know. It could have

452
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,320
Speaker 2: been a neighbor who came out and looked. He had

453
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:16,679
Speaker 2: what's called a block and tackle.

454
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:18,879
Speaker 1: Do you know what that is? A block and tackle? No,

455
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:19,840
Speaker 1: I had to look it up.

456
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,760
Speaker 2: It's a mechanism consisting of ropes and one or more

457
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,600
Speaker 2: more pulley blocks that you use for lifting or pulling

458
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:29,199
Speaker 2: heavy objects. And my friend Abbott Taylor says that it

459
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,880
Speaker 2: could be used to remove car engines. But we don't

460
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,280
Speaker 2: know if this guy tampered with Georgia's cars or who

461
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:38,400
Speaker 2: he is. And you know, I haven't seen anything about

462
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 2: whether the engines had been removed from these two work

463
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 2: trucks of his, just that there was a guy there

464
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,679
Speaker 2: who you know, nobody really knew it could have been

465
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 2: a neighbor they didn't know. I guess there's just suspiciousness

466
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:52,960
Speaker 2: kind of throughout this entire story.

467
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know we're dealing with vehicles from nineteen forty five,

468
00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 3: but I would have a hard time that in the

469
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 3: middle of the night that two engine blocks were removed

470
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 3: out of these trucks. Yeah, that's that's way over the

471
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,720
Speaker 3: top to disable the trucks. There's so many different ways,

472
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 3: you know, So that we're further into the investigation, I

473
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 3: would imagine that there is some some mechanical expert looking

474
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,920
Speaker 3: at these trucks to determine why they did not turn over,

475
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:21,919
Speaker 3: you know, were they intentionally sabotaged.

476
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,199
Speaker 2: We eventually are going to learn, and I might as

477
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,040
Speaker 2: well tell you this now, because we are now convinced,

478
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 2: I think you and I that this certainly was somebody

479
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 2: who is sabotaging them. The family's telephone wires were cut.

480
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,479
Speaker 2: They found evidence of that. Marion, who is the fourteen

481
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:40,399
Speaker 2: or fifteen year old, rushes to a neighbor's house to

482
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 2: use their phone because their phone is not working. She

483
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 2: tries to get the operator, but there's no one on

484
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,840
Speaker 2: the line. Because it's Christmas Day, you know, and it's

485
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 2: one thirty at this point, so it sounds like this

486
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 2: phone call happened at twelve thirty. Marian heard the thud

487
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:56,920
Speaker 2: I would bet twelve forty five.

488
00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 1: She said she was just dozing.

489
00:24:58,040 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 2: It probably took her ten or fifteen minutes to kind

490
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 2: of around answer the phone, look around, shut everything down,

491
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 2: and then the fire I mean it was quick, you know,

492
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:07,680
Speaker 2: and smoking and blazing.

493
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:08,360
Speaker 1: By one o'clock.

494
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 2: You know, Marian is having absolutely no luck finding somebody

495
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:16,360
Speaker 2: an operator, but luckily George flags down a neighbor who

496
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,120
Speaker 2: is driving by during this blaze. He's able to get

497
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 2: a hold of the fire chief, who's a guy named F. J.

498
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:22,400
Speaker 1: Morris.

499
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,680
Speaker 2: Morris is not particularly helpful. This will go also into

500
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,639
Speaker 2: our conspiracy, which drive me crazy. The conspiracies are going

501
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 2: to drive me crazy. He's not helpful. He says he

502
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 2: can't drive the fire truck himself, even though he's the

503
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,399
Speaker 2: fire chief. He has to wait for other crew members

504
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 2: to arrive. And Morris gets this in motion by starting

505
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 2: the department's phone tree system, So you know where they're

506
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 2: getting a hold of all the firefighters, but they won't

507
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:51,200
Speaker 2: get there until eight am. This madness started at one am.

508
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 2: And so this is disturbing already to George, and his

509
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 2: mind has already been churning about people out to get

510
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,159
Speaker 2: him to begin with. And this is not helpful that

511
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,680
Speaker 2: the fire chief is not responding to a fire when

512
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 2: his little children are all trapped up on the upper floor.

513
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I know it's Christmas. But generally, you know,

514
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 3: for emergency response, this is you know, part of your

515
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 3: critical staffing. You always maintain a level of critical staff

516
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,960
Speaker 3: in order to be able to respond to emergencies. And

517
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,640
Speaker 3: for this fire chief, for this fire department to take

518
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:33,880
Speaker 3: seven hours to respond to a structure fire with occupants,

519
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 3: I would want to know, well, what is their normal response,

520
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 3: what is their normal staffing level?

521
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 4: What is their staffing level?

522
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:43,640
Speaker 3: That night when you said that, the fire chief said,

523
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 3: I can't drive the truck myself.

524
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 4: Well, that might be very accurate.

525
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 3: I don't know what kind of truck this is, you know,

526
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,680
Speaker 3: does it require multiple people to drive or to get

527
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 3: set up?

528
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 4: Who knows?

529
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 3: But a seven hour delay for this type of fire,

530
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:03,639
Speaker 3: something's wrong. And it's either just sheer negligence in terms

531
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 3: of ensuring that you had people to respond, or there's

532
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 3: a purposeful act in terms of delaying the response. That

533
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:14,399
Speaker 3: does sound crazy to me.

534
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 1: It does to me too.

535
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 2: I mean, you have to say, we've got to throw

536
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 2: in there that this is right after World War Two,

537
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 2: and you know, I think their supply of local men

538
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,399
Speaker 2: have been depleted to a certain extent and Christmas. But

539
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 2: at the same time, seven hours just seems not feasible

540
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 2: to me.

541
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 4: Yep, it's absurd as far as I'm concerned.

542
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:35,640
Speaker 2: I don't know if this makes sense, So you tell

543
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,880
Speaker 2: me if this makes sense. The Times West Virginia says

544
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,920
Speaker 2: that the house was completely burned down to the ground

545
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 2: in under forty five minutes. Does that seem if we're

546
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:47,400
Speaker 2: thinking Molotov cocktail?

547
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 1: Does that tally with you?

548
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 3: Not with a single point of ignition, you know from

549
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 3: the outside. This is where I think this further supports

550
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:02,399
Speaker 3: that possibly an accelerant had been distributed inside the house.

551
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 4: That would be my guess.

552
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 3: Now I am not an expert, you know, this is

553
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 3: where I would be looking at, you know, my Arson

554
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,439
Speaker 3: investigators and saying, hey, you know, and of course they

555
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 3: would be able to take a look at the remnants

556
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,120
Speaker 3: of the house and maybe see that there's multiple points

557
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 3: of origin to the fire, which is one of the things,

558
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 3: one of the diagnostic features of well, yes, this is

559
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 3: a you know, this was a purposeful fire. This is

560
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,959
Speaker 3: an arson, even though you're talking nineteen forty five, there

561
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 3: could be visual indicators that an accelerant had been applied

562
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 3: the way that the fire possibly spread. And this is

563
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 3: where your arson investigators. They're highly trained and they can see.

564
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 3: It's so interesting is that, of course, you know, the

565
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,959
Speaker 3: inside of a house after it's been burned, it is

566
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 3: such a surreal environment. Everything looks different. But these guys

567
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,719
Speaker 3: can see. They know what let's say, an old style

568
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 3: TV looks like after it's been melted down down, you know,

569
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 3: into the carpet, you know, they say, that's a TV.

570
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 3: This is this, this is this, And I'm going in

571
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 3: going okay, okay, you know, show me where the body is,

572
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 3: you know, that's that's my focus. But forty five minutes

573
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 3: for what sounds like a fairly large house. You know,

574
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 3: obviously this must be entirely a wood structure. I am

575
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 3: leaning towards. This seems like it is a very hot

576
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 3: fire and it's spread very quickly, and this was possibly

577
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:28,719
Speaker 3: aided by an accelerant.

578
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 2: Let me know, if you think this is going to

579
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 2: make a difference. I'm pretty sure it does. Police, after

580
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 2: talking to George, find out that he kept a fifty

581
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 2: five gallon drum of gasoline in the basement.

582
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 1: When'd you think that makes a difference.

583
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 3: Well, obviously that's a huge fuel source for the fire,

584
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 3: but you'd have to get access into the basement. If

585
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 3: you're the arsonist, either you're going into the basement or

586
00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 3: you are able from the outside to start a fire

587
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 3: down there, and that would indicate you have knowledge that

588
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 3: that fuel source is down there for the fire. Let's

589
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 3: say the fire starts upstairs, and yes, I mean eventually

590
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 3: it could make its way down, but generally fires move

591
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 3: faster up than down. Maybe this open door that Jenny saw,

592
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 3: you know, was an arsenist or a member of a

593
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 3: team of arsenists that went down into the basement to

594
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 3: take advantage of this massive fuel source. And I would

595
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 3: imagine you're just not keeping that gasoline in that fifty

596
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 3: five gallon drum. You are possibly puncturing the side of

597
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 3: it or laying it down on its side with the

598
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 3: little tab open, so this gas is now spreading across

599
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 3: the floor, and that's when you're throwing your ignition source

600
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 3: at that fuel, and then that would explain how rapidly

601
00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 3: this fire spread and possibly help speed up the time

602
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 3: frame it took to completely burn this house down.

603
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 1: Well, let me ask a very cryptic question.

604
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 2: Which section of a house is better to start a

605
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 2: fire in with an accelerant to ensure that it burns

606
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 2: as fast as possible.

607
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 1: The lowest point or the highest point?

608
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 3: Oh well, the lowest point the basement. And you know,

609
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 3: typically basements because they're built underground. You know, they have

610
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 3: a retaining wall aspect. Structurally, they're made out of concrete

611
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 3: or cinder block, something that's relatively non flammable. But once

612
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 3: you get to the first floor, the second floor, whatever,

613
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 3: that's going to be your wood structure that's above ground.

614
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 3: And so you think about this fire that's fueled by

615
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 3: this fifty five gallons of gas. You know, once you

616
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 3: know that fire heats up the ceiling to the basement,

617
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 3: that's going to be probably wood. Now you start getting

618
00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 3: the fire moving very quickly up, you know, and if

619
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 3: you have stairwells where you have oxygen sources, you know,

620
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 3: the fire likes to.

621
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 4: Go to where it can breathe.

622
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 3: So yes, I would say that if the point of

623
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 3: origin to this fire was in the basement and the

624
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 3: arsonists utilize the existing gasoline down there. Then this is

625
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 3: showing pre planning, This is showing intent. This is wanting

626
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 3: this fire in essence to kill as many people in

627
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 3: this house as possible.

628
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 2: Okay, well, let me tell you who is left in

629
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 2: this house that has been burned down to the ground.

630
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 2: So Maurice, Martha, Lewis, Jinny Junior, and Betty. These kids

631
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 2: are let's see, Maurice is fourteen or fifteen, Martha's twelve,

632
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,479
Speaker 2: Lewis is nine, Genny is eight. I don't know if

633
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 2: I said Betty she's five. These are the kids who

634
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 2: were still trapped this house, they said, burned to the ground.

635
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 2: Their parents, of course, are completely devastated and trying to

636
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 2: figure out what happened, and they couldn't get to their kids.

637
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 1: They're sort of tortured over this.

638
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 2: And then we get to trying to figure out in

639
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 2: the aftermath of this fire, who caused it. This was murder,

640
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 2: except there is no evidence of any of these kids left.

641
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 2: There's no teeth, not one tiny bit of anything from

642
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 2: any of the kids. And this is very alarming to

643
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 2: the locals.

644
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 4: Well, I've seen.

645
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 3: In fact, I just consulted on a case in which,

646
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 3: again a very hot fire as well as the body

647
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 3: had been probably within a structure as it burned for

648
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 3: quite some time, and in essence, there was hardly anything

649
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 3: left body completely cremated. In essence, it was like this

650
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 3: congealed mass that was there that was tiny. So on

651
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 3: one hand, I'm wondering if these kids had burned up

652
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 3: so much that now what I would expect to be

653
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:08,800
Speaker 3: relatively naive and ignorant fire investigators would never have recognized

654
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 3: their bodies. On the other hand, were the kids even

655
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 3: in the house right when the fire happened? Had they

656
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 3: been taken out, kidnapped or something else going on? So

657
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 3: I think those are the two competing theories I have

658
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 3: right now. I'll leave it at that. I'm sure you

659
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 3: are going to be giving me a curve ball here

660
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 3: pretty soon.

661
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's all kinds of stuff happening, and there's evidence

662
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:34,879
Speaker 2: on both sides of that. So don't conclude they were

663
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 2: burned up just yet, because we have some experts who

664
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 2: came in and they said that there was days and

665
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 2: days of searching. There was at least one firefire who

666
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:49,240
Speaker 2: had extensive experience responding to house fires and doing searches

667
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 2: like this, who had been great at finding the most

668
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 2: minute pieces. The quote was, they searched through the ashes

669
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 2: for the five children's remains. They did not find as

670
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 2: much as one single tooth. The police said, well, he's

671
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,399
Speaker 2: got that fifty five gallon drum, and of course the

672
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 2: fire chief immediately says, it burns so hot it was

673
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 2: an incinerator. Essentially, the fire chief is on board with

674
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,880
Speaker 2: all the children died. George and Jenny are not saying

675
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 2: anything just yet. But tell me if you think that

676
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 2: this is weird, because this is the beginning of my

677
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 2: own conspiracy in my head about this story. A few

678
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 2: days later. So this happens on December twenty fifth. Four

679
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 2: days later, on December twenty ninth, George and Jenny bulldoze

680
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 2: the property to create a memorial for the kids. Four

681
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 2: days later, would you not think we need to investigate? Like,

682
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 2: why would you if this is a I don't get it.

683
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 2: I don't understand why they would be allowed to do that.

684
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,799
Speaker 2: It's weird to me. Four days Yeah.

685
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 3: Typically with arson investigations, you know, those can take some time,

686
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 3: and the burned up structure is usually left in place

687
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 3: for a period of time because the arson investigators need

688
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 3: sometimes need to kind of continuously come back as they

689
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:10,720
Speaker 3: find out more information. This does seem quick to decompletely

690
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 3: destroy this crime scene, especially being done by George and Jenny.

691
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 3: But right now I have no I guess I have

692
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,439
Speaker 3: no opinion on this at this point in time, It's

693
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:27,280
Speaker 3: just okay. This does seem odd. It starts to open

694
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:31,399
Speaker 3: up the door. Though in my head that George's paranoia

695
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 3: and his reporting of these men is that staging. Is

696
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:41,359
Speaker 3: he trying to set something up? And is there any

697
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 3: benefit to him or Jenny to have five of their

698
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 3: kids either disappear or die interesting.

699
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,720
Speaker 2: I will make a note with no judgment towards George

700
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 2: or you know, saying that this is what I think happened.

701
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 2: I will say that the kids that were in the

702
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 2: fire are the youngest, with the exception of the toddler

703
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 2: that they grabbed. When I read that he had bulldozed

704
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 2: down the site, what I thought was he so freaked

705
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 2: out and paranoid that he faked their debts sent them off.

706
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:17,319
Speaker 2: He was that scared and he thought maybe he and

707
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:19,239
Speaker 2: Jenny could take care of the toddler. And then the

708
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 2: other ones were old enough. But we have a lot more.

709
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 2: I mean, I have several more pages of stuff to

710
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 2: get through. There's a lot more happening with this. You know,

711
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 2: this fire happens on Christmas Day. Four days later they

712
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,399
Speaker 2: bulldozed down the rest of the house. Then the next

713
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 2: day after that, the corner issues at death certificates based

714
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,320
Speaker 2: on the corner's inquest, which was that it was an accident,

715
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 2: the result of faulty wiring.

716
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 4: From those fuseboxes.

717
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is weird because the utility company had come

718
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 2: out and said everything is fine. Now this is where

719
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 2: I go back to being confused, because at first I

720
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 2: was thinking George is doing weird stuff. But George and

721
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 2: Jenny are sounding alarms about this from now until the

722
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:05,400
Speaker 2: end of time. They're saying, we think that something nefarious

723
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 2: was happening. We don't think this was an accident. This

724
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 2: is not bad wiring, and most of the people in

725
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:12,880
Speaker 2: the town don't think it was bad wiring. They said

726
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 2: that Ginny had seen these lights on. You know, they're

727
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 2: explaining the power company had come out. It just doesn't

728
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 2: make any sense that it was an electrical wire malfunction.

729
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 2: They also said, you know, of course, this is when

730
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 2: we found out that their telephone wires had been cut

731
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:30,879
Speaker 2: and that the latter had been moved. So eventually it's

732
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,919
Speaker 2: determined that the telephone wires were cut by a man

733
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 2: named Lonnie Johnson, who happened to be robbing the property

734
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 2: of tools because he was a trucker. You know, George

735
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 2: had all of these tools the night the fire began.

736
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:45,840
Speaker 2: He pled guilty to theft, and of course the timing

737
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,960
Speaker 2: is really suspicious, but Lonnie is adamant he didn't have

738
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 2: anything to do with the fire at all. And you know,

739
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:54,839
Speaker 2: we don't know if this is the guy who had

740
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 2: the block and tackle I told you about. But you know,

741
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 2: essentially the police are not a him. He's never arrested.

742
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 2: He's arrested for theft. He confessed to that that there's

743
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 2: nothing else and he's not somebody who's been making a threat,

744
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 2: and you know, he's just a thief essentially.

745
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 3: Well, I know, coincidences can happen, but Lonnie is at

746
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,800
Speaker 3: the house cutting the telephone lines the night that fire

747
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 3: breaks out.

748
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 4: He's a trucker.

749
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 3: You have two trucks that have been disabled somehow, some way, right,

750
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:30,319
Speaker 3: did they find any stolen property with Lonnie to be

751
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 3: able to verify that he did in fact steal something.

752
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,319
Speaker 1: I do think they found some tools, yes on him.

753
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 2: He was kind of known as the local like thief,

754
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 2: you know, small town thief. And actually it kind of

755
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 2: makes sense. I mean, you're guaranteed people were going to

756
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 2: be in bed Christmas Eve or Christmas Day. I know,

757
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:52,319
Speaker 2: it's weird and there are coincidences. They don't think there's

758
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 2: enough there to charge him with anything, but that doesn't

759
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:57,400
Speaker 2: mean he wasn't involved certainly.

760
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 3: Right, I mean, though one person could be involved in

761
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 3: the arson to think about, Okay, the ladder's been moved,

762
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 3: two trucks disabled, possibly an intrusion into the house, as

763
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:13,399
Speaker 3: well as maybe an incentiary device being thrown on top

764
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 3: of the house.

765
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:17,239
Speaker 4: Seems like it's more than one person doing this.

766
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 2: Well, likely a woman at least as part of the conspiracy,

767
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 2: the woman who called, And that would make sense if

768
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 2: this is politically motivated. Let me give you some more information.

769
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,760
Speaker 2: Three months after the tragedy, they're no closer to figuring

770
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 2: out what happened. George and Jenny are poking around the

771
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,760
Speaker 2: property and they find something which is a dark green

772
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:41,319
Speaker 2: hard rubber object, and according to the Smithsonian magazine, who

773
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 2: has covered this story, George thinks it looks like a

774
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:48,760
Speaker 2: military style napalm pineapple bomb, and they wonder, of course,

775
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 2: is this the device that Genny heard banging and then

776
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 2: rolling off of the roof that night. I will tell you, Paul,

777
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 2: I find it hard to believe that nobody found this

778
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,320
Speaker 2: before that. I mean, you've got somebody looking for teeth

779
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 2: and they didn't find this thing. And we're at the

780
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 2: end of World War two and people don't know that

781
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:07,879
Speaker 2: this looks like a pineapple bomb.

782
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 3: No, this is where your fire investigators are. Some investigators

783
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 3: they would recognize that.

784
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, so what happened?

785
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:22,600
Speaker 3: Well, if if that was truly missed in the search,

786
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 3: then that tells me that they easily would have missed

787
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 3: these kids as remains.

788
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:29,439
Speaker 4: You know, they did not search very good.

789
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 2: I don't buy this, but I don't know why that

790
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 2: they just happened to come across this with all of

791
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,719
Speaker 2: these people trapesing across this property, and you have to

792
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 2: know they're luki lose going over there too after sundown.

793
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,319
Speaker 2: I mean, just this is the freakiest thing that's really

794
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 2: happened in this area. I'm not saying they planted it.

795
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 2: I just think it's weird. Do you have any idea

796
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 2: how big this would have been. It's not tiny, right,

797
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:52,320
Speaker 2: it would have been fist sized maybe.

798
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 4: I don't know.

799
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 3: If it's something that's handheld and thrown, it wouldn't have

800
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 3: been very big.

801
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 2: I'm gonna look it up. Okay, here's the length. If

802
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 2: this is the same same thing, and that it probably is,

803
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:06,800
Speaker 2: it's about four inches long, diameter is almost three inches,

804
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:08,959
Speaker 2: weight is about not even two pounds.

805
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean this sounds like your handheld grenade type

806
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 3: of device, but its intent is to start a fire.

807
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 3: It's an incendiary device. This is a type of evidence

808
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:25,279
Speaker 3: that fire investigators are some investigators are looking for, you know,

809
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 3: when they are looking at a case like this, and

810
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:30,840
Speaker 3: so to miss something like that again, it just it

811
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:34,719
Speaker 3: underscores that this was not a very well searched arson.

812
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 2: Scene or somebody planted that for some reason. And you

813
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:40,240
Speaker 2: have to think it's close to the house. If Genny's

814
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 2: right and you hear it rolling off the roof, it's

815
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 2: going to be landing right there, right.

816
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:44,759
Speaker 4: Yeah.

817
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 3: Well, if it's planted after the fact, then that is

818
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:54,400
Speaker 3: a form of staging, Yeah, you know, and why plant

819
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,359
Speaker 3: this military device to try to make it think that

820
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:00,359
Speaker 3: it was somebody that's a soldier? You know, that seems

821
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 3: odd to me. I'm not sure what benefit there would

822
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 3: be in this scenario to plant something like that.

823
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about people running experiments they probably shouldn't

824
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:13,359
Speaker 2: be running. Jenny is beside herself over these kids. She

825
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:15,799
Speaker 2: starts running her own experiments to test the theory that

826
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:20,360
Speaker 2: a children might have been completely incinerated. She starts burning

827
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 2: animal bones to see what's left after the fire, and

828
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 2: Abbott Kaylor, my friend, says that each time she was

829
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:29,839
Speaker 2: left with a heap of charred bones. She knew that

830
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:32,759
Speaker 2: the remnants of various household appliances had been found in

831
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 2: the burned out basement that were still totally identifiable, and

832
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 2: an employee at at crematorium that she talked to said

833
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:43,759
Speaker 2: that bones remain after the bodies are burned for two

834
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 2: hours at two thousand degrees, and this house was destroyed

835
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 2: in forty five minutes. So you know, there should have

836
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 2: been stuff, is what everybody's pointed. With five kids, there

837
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 2: should have been stuff.

838
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 3: I don't know, I'm unconvinced, Okay, Jenny's experiments are faulty completely,

839
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 3: you know, I know, you know, you start talking about

840
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 3: like a crematorium, Well, that's a static environment. You're just

841
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:09,280
Speaker 3: dealing with the heat that the body is being subjected

842
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,920
Speaker 3: to when you were dealing with a structural fire. And

843
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:14,240
Speaker 3: there's a lot of variables, you know, and I can't

844
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 3: speak to how much hotter. You know, the house fire

845
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:21,319
Speaker 3: in this situation would be than a crematorium or less

846
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 3: than a crematorium.

847
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 4: But you think about a house.

848
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:27,400
Speaker 3: You got objects that are now collapsing, you have the

849
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:31,439
Speaker 3: house itself collapsing. You know, if you have these even

850
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 3: if there's some long bones, some recognizable long bones from

851
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 3: the children, there's mechanical forces that are possibly being applied

852
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 3: that is going to disrupt all of that. I would

853
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:48,319
Speaker 3: think that remnants from some of the kids would have

854
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 3: been able to persist after this fire. I do think

855
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:58,879
Speaker 3: it's possible that these children's remains were burned up to

856
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:04,799
Speaker 3: an extent where they would have been unrecognizable, possibly congealed

857
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:09,360
Speaker 3: with other substances that had melted inside the house. And

858
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:13,960
Speaker 3: people that were investigating this fire may not have the

859
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 3: expertise to have recognized the child's remains.

860
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:19,919
Speaker 2: All right, Well, let's keep going because now we're coming

861
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,439
Speaker 2: to your favorite part, the maddening world of witnesses who

862
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:27,920
Speaker 2: are spotting people and not spotting people. It's a big smile, Okay,

863
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 2: George and Jenny are going out of their minds because

864
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,799
Speaker 2: the amount of witness statements coming in. So we have

865
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:36,840
Speaker 2: one person who says that they saw a tiny face

866
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 2: among the flames in an upstairs window, which of course

867
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:42,440
Speaker 2: supports the idea that the kids died in the fire.

868
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:45,880
Speaker 2: But someone else says that they saw the kids in

869
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 2: a car passing by while the fire was still burning.

870
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 2: And then in the days and weeks that followed, there

871
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 2: are more tips. Someone in Charleston, West Virginia reported that

872
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,919
Speaker 2: the four youngest of the missing children were with four

873
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:02,359
Speaker 2: Italians speaking. It's a week after the fire. And then

874
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 2: a motel employee says that the missing kids were just

875
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 2: hours after the fire, like right around you know, in

876
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:16,360
Speaker 2: between Charleston and Fayetteville. So people are seeing these kids,

877
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 2: specifically four or five kids here. So what do you

878
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 2: think about that? I mean, we've talked about witnesses.

879
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 3: Before, well, and I imagine this is a fairly high

880
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:29,719
Speaker 3: profile case, right mm. Hmmm, yeah, you know, it's it's

881
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:33,759
Speaker 3: so hard to put a lot of credibility on these

882
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:37,880
Speaker 3: witness statements. Can't dismiss them either, you know. That's that's

883
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 3: probably the maddening aspect of this aspect of the investigation.

884
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 3: Maybe these people are telling the truth. These witnesses are

885
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 3: telling the truth, but they didn't interpret what they were seeing, right,

886
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,840
Speaker 3: These were just other kids out there. Parents are taking

887
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 3: them home from Grandma's house to go and wake up

888
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:58,840
Speaker 3: in the morning at their own house, you know, for

889
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 3: Christmas morning, or you know, they truly saw these victims.

890
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 3: And then now why these particular kids are purposely selected

891
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 3: to have been removed from the house. You know, what

892
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 3: was at something done with the knowledge of George and Jenny.

893
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 3: Was just something that was done to torment George and Jenny.

894
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:21,200
Speaker 3: I mean, who knows, you know at this point. You know,

895
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 3: right now, you know the two competing theories either the

896
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:26,280
Speaker 3: kids burned up in the fire or the kids were

897
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:29,359
Speaker 3: abducted or given away. I don't know if you can

898
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:32,839
Speaker 3: resolve those two competing theories with the information right now.

899
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 2: So George hired a private investigator named C. C. Tinsley,

900
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 2: and Tinsley finds out from a Fayetteville minister that the

901
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:44,919
Speaker 2: fire chief, remember him F. J. Morris, the guy who

902
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:49,080
Speaker 2: delayed coming to the fire, had claimed to have found

903
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:52,920
Speaker 2: a human heart among the fire debris, And obviously this

904
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 2: is freaking out George and Jenny. They approached the fire

905
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 2: chief and said, what what are you talking about? And

906
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:01,920
Speaker 2: the chief didn't have a good answer, but he says,

907
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 2: you know, I'll kind of show you this box that

908
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:07,719
Speaker 2: I found. And they unbury this box because I guess

909
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 2: he had buried it again. And it turned out that

910
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 2: it was beef liver that he had buried himself. And

911
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:18,280
Speaker 2: his claim essentially was that he wanted to give the

912
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 2: family some kind of closure like they had definitely died

913
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:22,240
Speaker 2: in this fire.

914
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 1: It was.

915
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 2: It's a bizarre circumstance and rumor, but all it means

916
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:29,480
Speaker 2: to me is that the fire chief can't be trusted

917
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 2: for anything, including putting out a fire effectively.

918
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,239
Speaker 3: No, that's true, you know, and I think you just

919
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 3: brought something to light if you will, talk about how

920
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:43,319
Speaker 3: this house burned down in forty five minutes, but that

921
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 3: fire smoldered, the embers smoldered much longer. I mean, it

922
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:50,759
Speaker 3: was seven hours before the fire department shows up.

923
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 4: Right.

924
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 3: This further puts in my brain the fact that it

925
00:48:57,120 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 3: is possible that the kids remains were so decimated by

926
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:06,320
Speaker 3: this fire that they just were unrecognizable.

927
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:10,160
Speaker 2: Well, let's go on, there's more stuff. Of course, turns

928
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 2: out that the same insurance salesman who had threatened George,

929
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:15,600
Speaker 2: remember your goddamn house is going to go up in

930
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 2: smoke and your children are going to be destroyed. Remember him,

931
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:21,400
Speaker 2: He's never been arrested for it. Of course, he said

932
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 2: he didn't mean anything when I said it. This guy, Paul,

933
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:27,840
Speaker 2: was a member of the Corner Stury who determined it

934
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:31,840
Speaker 2: was an accidental death due to electrical wiring. Welcome to

935
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 2: a small town. So listen. Now things get a little sciencey.

936
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:37,560
Speaker 2: So I definitely need your help because the story is

937
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 2: not over in nineteen forty nine, So this happens in

938
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:44,440
Speaker 2: forty five. In nineteen forty nine, there's a DC pathologist

939
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:47,640
Speaker 2: named Oscar B. Hunter, and he conducts a brand new

940
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 2: search of the property at George and Jenny's request. He

941
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 2: unearths a partly burned dictionary that had been kept in

942
00:49:56,080 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 2: the children's room. He also finds small pieces of human vertebrae.

943
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:02,319
Speaker 2: So you're telling me that a dictionary doesn't burn all

944
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 2: the way, but these kids are burned.

945
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 1: I don't know.

946
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 3: I can just say, and it's anecdotal. Fire does weird things. Yeah,

947
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:14,000
Speaker 3: you know, So as odd as that might seem, I'm

948
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:16,319
Speaker 3: not surprised by that. I've seen that type of thing

949
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 3: where things all around something is just completely charred and burned.

950
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 3: And then you have some you know, some object that

951
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 3: you would think would have gone up too, and it's

952
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:27,840
Speaker 3: right there, the human vertebrae. I mean the fact that

953
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:31,920
Speaker 3: you have a pathologists identifying this as a small human vertebrae,

954
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:34,080
Speaker 3: which sounds consistent with child size.

955
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 4: You know.

956
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 3: Of course, in this day and age, we could potentially

957
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:40,879
Speaker 3: get DNA off of that vertebrae to show it's one

958
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 3: of the kids.

959
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:45,319
Speaker 2: Okay, well it's with the Smithsonian, I'm presuming. Let me

960
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 2: tell you the interesting findings here. Number one. I'm going

961
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:51,439
Speaker 2: to start with the fact that the Smithsonian experts say

962
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:53,880
Speaker 2: this has not been exposed to fire. They send it

963
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:57,160
Speaker 2: to the Smithsonian. This is in nineteen forty nine. They

964
00:50:57,320 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 2: determined that this is these are quotes. This is so

965
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:03,560
Speaker 2: sign see the human bones consist of four lumbar vertebrae

966
00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 2: belonging to one individual. Since the transverse recesses are fused,

967
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:11,799
Speaker 2: the age of this individual at death should have been

968
00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:16,800
Speaker 2: sixteen or seventeen years. The top age limit would have

969
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:20,800
Speaker 2: been about twenty two, since the CenTra, which normally fuse

970
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:24,719
Speaker 2: at twenty three, are still unfused. On this basis, the

971
00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 2: bones show greater skeletal maturation than one would expect for

972
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 2: a fourteen year old boy who is the oldest one.

973
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:35,200
Speaker 2: It is, however, possible, although not probable, that for a

974
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 2: boy fourteen and a half years old to show sixteen

975
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 2: to seventeen maturation. And then they say it is not

976
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:46,279
Speaker 2: being exposed to fire. And the report the experts say,

977
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:48,160
Speaker 2: and this is a lot of people at the Smithsonian,

978
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:50,800
Speaker 2: they say, it is very strange that no other bones

979
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 2: were found in the allegedly careful excavation of the basement

980
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:57,400
Speaker 2: of the house, and that if the house reportedly burned

981
00:51:57,400 --> 00:51:59,920
Speaker 2: for only half an hour or so, one would expect

982
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:02,879
Speaker 2: the full skeletons of the five children rather than only

983
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:05,040
Speaker 2: four vertebrae. And they don't even think this is of

984
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:05,479
Speaker 2: a kid.

985
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:08,319
Speaker 3: Well, there's I mean, there's there's so many variables we're

986
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:11,320
Speaker 3: talking about here, You're talking about four years of time

987
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:15,080
Speaker 3: after the fire, after the house was bulldozed, and then

988
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:19,319
Speaker 3: they find this vertebrae from I would say, like, what

989
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:22,880
Speaker 3: like a late teenage boy that has that wasn't exposed

990
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:25,160
Speaker 3: to the fire, And at this point in time we

991
00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:28,960
Speaker 3: don't know whose vertebrae this is. You know, I'm just

992
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:32,400
Speaker 3: now trying to wrap my head around, Well, what can

993
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 3: be said because of the you know, do you have

994
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:41,440
Speaker 3: a completely unrelated dead body that is at this property

995
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:44,920
Speaker 3: that was there either before or after the fire, but

996
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:48,399
Speaker 3: wasn't in essence burned up in the fire. Is this

997
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:52,799
Speaker 3: body even related to the family. I mean, there's too

998
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 3: many unknowns to draw any type of conclusion. It's just

999
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:59,200
Speaker 3: that you have a crime scene in which five kids

1000
00:52:59,239 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 3: disappeared from them, and now you find vertebrae. So I

1001
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:04,759
Speaker 3: think if you draw the assumption, well it's one of

1002
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:07,280
Speaker 3: the kids, I think that's a faulty assumption.

1003
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:12,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree, And it gets more confusing because two things. One,

1004
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:17,759
Speaker 2: the Smithsonian report says that the experts believe that when

1005
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:21,440
Speaker 2: they talked to George and Jenny and they said this

1006
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 2: was the basement area, this is kind of where you

1007
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 2: were putting up a memorial where this was found. What

1008
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:29,359
Speaker 2: did you do to fill in some of the space here?

1009
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:31,960
Speaker 2: And they said, well, we used backfill like dirt. The

1010
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:34,960
Speaker 2: private investigator, there's one article that the researcher found. There's

1011
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:38,840
Speaker 2: a private investigator that they hired said that he was

1012
00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 2: essentially able to trace this vertebrae back to a body

1013
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:46,879
Speaker 2: at Mount Hope, West Virginia. The idea was that they

1014
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 2: used dirt kind of close to this grave site.

1015
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:50,920
Speaker 4: From the cemetery.

1016
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, that it was transferred in when they built this memorial.

1017
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:56,160
Speaker 2: I don't even know what the memorial looks like. So

1018
00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 2: the Smithsonian said, that's to them, that's the only logical

1019
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:02,759
Speaker 2: thing here. Eras that whatever dirt was used had body parts. Yeah,

1020
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:04,600
Speaker 2: I think in this area, I mean, people were buried

1021
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 2: all over the place here, So I thought that was

1022
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:08,759
Speaker 2: really interesting, not conclusive.

1023
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:12,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a plausible explanation, you know for sure. Yeah,

1024
00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:16,399
Speaker 3: it sounds like this. You know, based on the anthropological

1025
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:20,319
Speaker 3: assessment that expert is able to determine a lot that

1026
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:25,040
Speaker 3: these vertebrae are in good shape. So that's where kind

1027
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:29,400
Speaker 3: of to my point earlier to assume that these vertebrae

1028
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:32,959
Speaker 3: were present at the time of the fire. It could

1029
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:35,480
Speaker 3: have been there before, just not exposed to the fire

1030
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:40,200
Speaker 3: or after. In this scenario, it's come after and it's

1031
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:43,600
Speaker 3: in essence. It's just, you know, this is contamination of

1032
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:46,920
Speaker 3: the scene. Four years later, you do have that happen.

1033
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:51,440
Speaker 2: The FBI is rocked, of course by the Smithsonian's report

1034
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:53,480
Speaker 2: and gets drawn into it and then gets nowhere and

1035
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:57,120
Speaker 2: drops it. And the surviving members of the family become

1036
00:54:57,160 --> 00:55:00,359
Speaker 2: convinced that the kids did survive, and somebody took him

1037
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:02,920
Speaker 2: from the house, and they chase leads and they follow

1038
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:06,160
Speaker 2: up on tips, and you know, these things always peter out.

1039
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:11,400
Speaker 2: In sixty eight, so this is twenty three years later,

1040
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:15,160
Speaker 2: the family gets a photograph of a man in the mail.

1041
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:17,920
Speaker 2: On the back of the photograph, somebody has written Lewis

1042
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:23,520
Speaker 2: Sawdu and then it says, I love brother Frankie little boys,

1043
00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:28,520
Speaker 2: and that's got some numbers or thirty five A nine zero, one, three,

1044
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:32,680
Speaker 2: two or thirty five. So one of the boys who

1045
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:35,680
Speaker 2: died was named Lewis. The family is convinced that this

1046
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:38,800
Speaker 2: is Lewis, but they never find out how to contact

1047
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:42,000
Speaker 2: the sender or the man in the photograph. They hand

1048
00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:44,839
Speaker 2: it over to investigators, this photo, and they wonder what

1049
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:47,560
Speaker 2: the heck the stream of numbers and letters is.

1050
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:49,279
Speaker 1: They never decipher it.

1051
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:51,840
Speaker 2: You know, Lewis doesn't have a brother named Frank, but

1052
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:55,560
Speaker 2: Jinny did have a brother named Frank. The Huffington Post,

1053
00:55:55,719 --> 00:55:58,200
Speaker 2: of course, years years years later, reports that at some

1054
00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:03,879
Speaker 2: point one of the family members accused her brother, Jenny's brother,

1055
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:07,240
Speaker 2: of kidnapping the children and raising them himself in Florida.

1056
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:09,919
Speaker 1: But we don't know what the motive is. There's nothing

1057
00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:10,719
Speaker 1: ever comes of that.

1058
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:14,680
Speaker 2: So it's just, I mean, it is unreal what this

1059
00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:15,880
Speaker 2: family has gone through.

1060
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:19,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, but this sounds kind of goofy to me.

1061
00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:23,040
Speaker 3: So you have one of the kids, now twenty three

1062
00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:27,239
Speaker 3: years later, is reaching out with a photo of himself

1063
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:31,000
Speaker 3: saying he loved Frankie, one of the other kids that's missing,

1064
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:34,880
Speaker 3: and then there's this weird series of numbers. Yeah, why

1065
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:40,400
Speaker 3: would Lewis be so cryptic at this point? You know,

1066
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:43,360
Speaker 3: as now as an adult, I mean, Lewis was in

1067
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:45,520
Speaker 3: early teens at the time of the fire.

1068
00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:49,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's no brother Frank either. Lewis would have

1069
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:52,160
Speaker 2: been nine, he would have been nine during this.

1070
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:54,640
Speaker 3: Okay, so he's now in his early thirties at the

1071
00:56:54,680 --> 00:56:57,960
Speaker 3: time this photo is sent. You know, this sounds more like,

1072
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:01,600
Speaker 3: you know, you have the eyes that escape from Alcatraz.

1073
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:05,960
Speaker 3: And then people are sending in photos of these guys,

1074
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:09,839
Speaker 3: you know, saying, hey, here I am living my life,

1075
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:11,919
Speaker 3: and its is like, no, you know, this is where

1076
00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:14,680
Speaker 3: you have your your goofballs and your nut jobs out

1077
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:18,840
Speaker 3: there that are just trying to put themselves into this investigation.

1078
00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:21,600
Speaker 3: You know, get a thrill out of the fact that

1079
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:23,280
Speaker 3: maybe they get something in the headlines.

1080
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:27,880
Speaker 4: I'm not buying this photo at all. If these kids were.

1081
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:32,040
Speaker 3: Abducted by family and raised, assuming that they were allowed

1082
00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:34,880
Speaker 3: to you know, grow up and start their own families

1083
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:35,760
Speaker 3: and everything else.

1084
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:36,240
Speaker 4: You know.

1085
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:38,520
Speaker 3: I think if I were to get involved in this

1086
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:43,560
Speaker 3: case today, if I had DNA from you know, the

1087
00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:48,160
Speaker 3: other kids or their descendants, I'd be looking to see

1088
00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:52,000
Speaker 3: if I could find siblings or you know, people at

1089
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:57,600
Speaker 3: the cousin level who pursued genealogy, you know, because then

1090
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:00,800
Speaker 3: it would say, oh, yeah, they did you know, they survived,

1091
00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:03,920
Speaker 3: you know, they have their offspring, who have their offspring

1092
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:07,560
Speaker 3: several generations removed since nineteen forty five, it's not that

1093
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:11,040
Speaker 3: that far back in time. That would be the one

1094
00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:13,960
Speaker 3: avenue I think I would pursue to try to answer

1095
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:14,800
Speaker 3: this question.

1096
00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:17,480
Speaker 4: You know, the vertebrae.

1097
00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:21,240
Speaker 3: I kind of buy the Smithsonian's assessment, but I think

1098
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:24,600
Speaker 3: we could do snip testing on that and figure out

1099
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:29,000
Speaker 3: who's vertebrae that was. But potentially, you know, so, yeah,

1100
00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:31,439
Speaker 3: at least with what you're telling me, the missing five

1101
00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:35,080
Speaker 3: kids are still the big mystery in this case, and

1102
00:58:35,200 --> 00:58:38,440
Speaker 3: I think there are ways even what is that now,

1103
00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:42,600
Speaker 3: that's fifty five, I mean you're talking eighty years later.

1104
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:46,320
Speaker 3: I mean, I think there's ways we could possibly solve

1105
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:47,040
Speaker 3: this mystery.

1106
00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:47,960
Speaker 1: I would love that.

1107
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:52,800
Speaker 2: Ultimately, George and Jenny die not knowing what happened. They

1108
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:55,840
Speaker 2: famously put up a billboard offering ten thousand dollars and

1109
00:58:55,880 --> 00:58:58,680
Speaker 2: there's a really sad photo that will go on social

1110
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:01,400
Speaker 2: media of the two of them, and they're very old,

1111
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:04,920
Speaker 2: and the billboard was up for decades. Finally the family

1112
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:07,280
Speaker 2: took it down after Ginny died, but they never came

1113
00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:09,720
Speaker 2: up with anything. They never came up with anything conclusive,

1114
00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:12,120
Speaker 2: but the children and the grandchildren, the ones who survived

1115
00:59:12,160 --> 00:59:15,960
Speaker 2: and then their children had continued to search and try,

1116
00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:19,040
Speaker 2: and that's the end of this Christmas mystery. You know

1117
00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:23,320
Speaker 2: what happened to these children? And we really do always

1118
00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:26,640
Speaker 2: seem to come back. Paul, I feel like to how

1119
00:59:26,680 --> 00:59:30,640
Speaker 2: competent are our investigators at the time. How much do

1120
00:59:30,680 --> 00:59:33,080
Speaker 2: you trust them? Do we trust that they did a

1121
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:36,720
Speaker 2: thorough search? If we do, then something happened other than

1122
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:39,640
Speaker 2: maybe them being burned up or you know, they got

1123
00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:41,520
Speaker 2: destroyed and misinterpreted.

1124
00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:42,040
Speaker 1: I don't know.

1125
00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:44,160
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I just now we can always

1126
00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:47,640
Speaker 2: come back to how much easier we haven't now than

1127
00:59:47,680 --> 00:59:49,360
Speaker 2: they did in nineteen forty five.

1128
00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:51,200
Speaker 1: Gosh, well, you know.

1129
00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:56,480
Speaker 3: There's still incompetence and negligence that happens in investigations.

1130
00:59:57,080 --> 00:59:59,480
Speaker 4: In this case. I mean, you just take a look.

1131
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:03,200
Speaker 3: At the seventh hour delay by the fire department to respond,

1132
01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:06,840
Speaker 3: you know, I think that that's, you know, really underscores

1133
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:13,440
Speaker 3: there was a lack of competence and maybe even something

1134
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:19,960
Speaker 3: more sinister going on. Finding the pineapple incendiary device. I

1135
01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:23,680
Speaker 3: forget exactly what it was called, but that's being found

1136
01:00:23,760 --> 01:00:27,680
Speaker 3: days later, you know. It just to me there was

1137
01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:33,080
Speaker 3: an incomplete search of this arson scene from the very beginning,

1138
01:00:33,440 --> 01:00:37,520
Speaker 3: and I just do not have confidence that they would

1139
01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:42,120
Speaker 3: have found these kids remains there, so I leaned towards

1140
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:45,080
Speaker 3: you know, the kids were killed in the fire, and

1141
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:48,920
Speaker 3: they are likely their remains are still at that location,

1142
01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:53,560
Speaker 3: but from the mechanical disruption from the house fire and

1143
01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:56,600
Speaker 3: everything going on, and then the bulldozing and everything else,

1144
01:00:57,120 --> 01:01:00,000
Speaker 3: I think it'd be very tough to find anything after.

1145
01:01:02,120 --> 01:01:06,640
Speaker 2: Well, this is not the traditional Christmas story that I enjoy,

1146
01:01:06,840 --> 01:01:09,160
Speaker 2: but this was man an important story. I feel like,

1147
01:01:09,520 --> 01:01:11,800
Speaker 2: I really, I feel like I learned a lot off

1148
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:13,640
Speaker 2: of this story. And we need a couple of weeks

1149
01:01:13,680 --> 01:01:17,200
Speaker 2: off from this because this is tough. Losing kids is tough.

1150
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:20,800
Speaker 2: When we talk about that, it's really hard. But we

1151
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:23,040
Speaker 2: need a couple of weeks off and we're going to

1152
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:27,160
Speaker 2: hopefully have good holidays and enjoy our loved ones and

1153
01:01:27,240 --> 01:01:28,400
Speaker 2: be grateful for what we have.

1154
01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:32,640
Speaker 4: Well that sounds good, And like I said, I will

1155
01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:36,400
Speaker 4: be on a beach in Waikiki and I will raise

1156
01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:39,960
Speaker 4: a glass of bourbon thinking about you and looking forward

1157
01:01:40,080 --> 01:01:41,560
Speaker 4: to when we get back together.

1158
01:01:42,200 --> 01:01:46,400
Speaker 2: You're gonna drink bourbon in Hawaii? Can't What about my tie?

1159
01:01:46,720 --> 01:01:49,760
Speaker 2: Aren't you gonna expand your horizons a little bit?

1160
01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:51,560
Speaker 1: Paul, Oh, come on, no.

1161
01:01:51,920 --> 01:01:56,680
Speaker 2: Reason to okay, no, no expanded horizons here. Okay, We'll

1162
01:01:56,720 --> 01:01:59,280
Speaker 2: have a wonderful winter break and we will see you

1163
01:01:59,280 --> 01:01:59,760
Speaker 2: in a couple of.

1164
01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:01,320
Speaker 4: Weeks, all right, you two.

1165
01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:08,760
Speaker 2: Kate, this has been an exactly right production for.

1166
01:02:08,760 --> 01:02:12,160
Speaker 3: Our sources and show notes go to exactlyrightmedia dot com

1167
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:13,960
Speaker 3: slash Buried Bones Sources.

1168
01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:16,560
Speaker 2: Our senior producer is Alexis Amrosi.

1169
01:02:16,880 --> 01:02:21,080
Speaker 3: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1170
01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:23,640
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1171
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:26,240
Speaker 4: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1172
01:02:26,480 --> 01:02:28,520
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1173
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:32,920
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Danielle Kramer.

1174
01:02:33,160 --> 01:02:36,560
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1175
01:02:36,640 --> 01:02:37,800
Speaker 2: Baried Bones pod.

1176
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:40,800
Speaker 3: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1177
01:02:40,840 --> 01:02:42,840
Speaker 3: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1178
01:02:42,840 --> 01:02:45,080
Speaker 3: criminal mind, is available now, and

1179
01:02:45,200 --> 01:02:49,479
Speaker 2: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's cold

1180
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:52,320
Speaker 2: Cases is also available now