WEBVTT - Dawn O’Porter 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:04.080 This is Tony Morrison. We die. That may be the 0:00:04.080 --> 0:00:08.559 meaning of life, but we do language that may be 0:00:08.680 --> 0:00:20.000 the measure of our lives. Our voice is a reflection 0:00:20.040 --> 0:00:23.200 of our life experience, where we've been and who we've 0:00:23.239 --> 0:00:26.560 listened to. But we can also own it and even 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:29.720 change it if we want. This is the podcast that's 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:32.840 all about the voice, but it's also all about power, 0:00:33.200 --> 0:00:35.360 Who has it, how we get it, and how we 0:00:35.479 --> 0:00:39.159 sound when we have it. I'm Samrve. I'm a dialect 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:41.800 coach for actors in Hollywood on projects like the upcoming 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:46.760 Wonder Woman's sequel, and I'm also a speech coach for entrepreneurs, politicians, 0:00:46.920 --> 0:00:50.400 creatives and women everywhere who need to use their voice 0:00:50.520 --> 0:00:53.600 to get what they want. Welcome to permission to speak. 0:00:53.880 --> 0:01:06.440 Let's do this. Today's guest is don oh Porter. That's 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:12.520 oh Apostrophe Porter because she married Chris O'Dowd and did 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:16.840 a very contemporary thing. I know, a portmanteau is what 0:01:16.880 --> 0:01:19.760 they call it in Fancyland. Down is a friend of mine. 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:24.160 She's a British novelist living in Hollywood, and also I 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:27.120 think for her as a social media star, which we 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:30.120 will talk about. Her latest book is called So Lucky. 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:32.280 It's a Sunday Times bestseller, which is sort of the 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:34.800 as you'd imagine British equivalent of the New York Times, 0:01:35.200 --> 0:01:39.160 and it's about the facade of perfection that modern women 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:43.160 accidentally construct for themselves. So we'll be getting into that. 0:01:43.560 --> 0:01:46.160 I wanted to have her on because she is truly 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:49.880 one of my favorite Instagram presences and I'm interested in 0:01:49.920 --> 0:01:52.280 what that is like sort of the public performance of 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:56.640 authenticity with maybe quotes around authenticity, but I find her 0:01:57.120 --> 0:02:01.960 online persona to be really accessible, yet really aspirational, and 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:06.480 really messy and yet really adult, which is super inspiring, 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:08.480 and we dive into what it takes to make that 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:11.720 happen in this interview, Plus we get into the discipline 0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:15.400 side of channeling your voice onto the page. She also 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:18.360 spent her twenties in front of the camera on British television, 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:22.840 starring in popular documentaries about subjects like starving yourself to 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:27.480 reach the ideal weight and the up and downsides of polygamy. 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:31.480 So she has a long history of being incredibly revealing 0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:34.360 in front of the lens and also of being the 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:36.720 creative decision maker of the content that she puts out 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:39.720 In this episode, we also talk about boundaries. I have 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:42.080 recently heard burn A Brown say that a good definition 0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:44.680 of boundaries is literally just what's okay and what's not okay, 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:47.520 So finding that for ourselves, especially in terms of our 0:02:47.520 --> 0:02:49.840 public persona. And we also talk about the benefits of 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:53.600 motherhood to making yourself right, which I always like to 0:02:53.639 --> 0:02:59.559 have that conversation, and the secret to holding the microphone 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:03.480 at an event and talking like a real person. Here 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:07.840 she is, I feel like I've just got to forty 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:10.440 one and worked out how to use my tricks without 0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:12.640 being a pain in the arts in the room. But 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:15.480 back then I was just bullsh Do you think that 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:20.480 came about because of merely age, Yes, and also just 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:22.920 realizing what is annoying in other people and being like 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:25.480 a heclo in a room, isn't actually that funny? And 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:27.120 learning when to be funny and when to be not, 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:32.080 And also just the realization and the comfort in I 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:34.520 don't have to walk into every single room and have 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:37.600 everyone noticed me and like me. My exhausting need to 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:41.280 be liked was something that was that drove that all 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:42.800 the time. I want everyone in this room to think 0:03:42.840 --> 0:03:44.600 I'm funny. I want everyone in this room to think 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:48.280 I'm smart, and now I just think kind of age, maturity, 0:03:48.320 --> 0:03:51.480 marriage and being a mom and having kind of ticks 0:03:51.480 --> 0:03:54.040 off a lot of career boxes. Just can't really be 0:03:54.080 --> 0:03:57.640 bothered anymore with that's not so important. I feel like 0:03:57.640 --> 0:04:04.160 this is like a recovery club that we could maybe 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:07.680 um recovery, but like also it would be like a 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:10.120 really cool club to be a part of. We're in 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:13.800 it tomorrow. There's so many places I can go, but 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:16.960 I'm actually going to go back to the top. So welcome, 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:20.479 thank you. I'm glad to have you here. Okay, so 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:23.760 my very first question is really just totally self serving, 0:04:24.040 --> 0:04:27.479 which is what have you learned about podcasting from hosting 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:30.320 a lovely question? I mean, you know you're the expert 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:34.640 to let people answer your question. I think one of 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:36.480 the things that you do when you start off in hosting, 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:39.360 which is something that I've definitely learned over the years, 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:43.200 is when you've asked a question, give them space to answer. 0:04:43.720 --> 0:04:46.080 And I think that's the best you can do when 0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:48.920 you're hosting a podcast really is just to like indulge 0:04:48.920 --> 0:04:52.680 in your guest and let them be your guest. I've 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:56.200 also learned to not be rigid and when a conversation 0:04:56.240 --> 0:04:57.960 goes in a direction even if it wasn't what I 0:04:58.000 --> 0:04:59.600 was expecting, to just roll with it because I think 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:01.440 that's the best kind of journalist and that you can 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:03.919 possibly create, is when you follow a story or a moment, 0:05:04.040 --> 0:05:06.240 and I love all that. And also just to be 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:09.360 interested in people, like really really interested, which is which 0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:11.960 connects to the other part of the question I think, 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:14.400 which is this is totally self serving all them. I 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:17.720 hope it is relevant for listeners as well. But how 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:20.200 do you come up with questions? I mean, have you 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:22.680 found that you really just want to ask, like what 0:05:22.800 --> 0:05:24.840 really comes to mind? I think the most actually want 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:26.880 to know the answer. Yeah. I also I don't plan 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:29.880 questions beforehand. Got like two things that I know that 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:32.039 I can bring it back to if it's going dry, 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:34.600 and that's I have that. But I always just think, 0:05:35.240 --> 0:05:38.480 really good conversational list So take the microphones away, take 0:05:38.480 --> 0:05:40.680 the headphones away, take the pressure of interview away. What 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:42.080 what I want to talk to the person about in 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:45.039 the pub and that's it, and just have a conversation. 0:05:45.440 --> 0:05:47.080 And I think as soon as I start thinking of 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:49.120 it in terms of like an interview where I have 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:53.120 to get this stuff. The podcast kind of loses it's 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:55.640 it's charm a bit. I used to do TV, whereas 0:05:55.680 --> 0:05:58.080 actually like interviewing people and you have to for the 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:01.560 sake of the segment, have you know a plan. That's 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:03.600 very different from podcasting. I think the joy of this 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:07.360 medium is that you can just freestyle and be interested 0:06:07.360 --> 0:06:08.960 in people and ask whatever comes to mind and that 0:06:09.080 --> 0:06:10.760 you know. And also you're in a situation where at 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:13.200 the end, I had one of my friends on my podcast, 0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:15.200 she really opened up to me about how she felt 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:18.279 about being a mom and it wasn't all rosy, and 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:20.680 I just said to at the start, just talk to 0:06:20.720 --> 0:06:23.360 me and we'll have our conversation. And at the end, 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:25.800 if you're upset about anything that you said, we'll take 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:28.440 it out. It's fine. But generally, when you offer someone 0:06:28.520 --> 0:06:31.880 a kind of comfortable space and you're not firing them 0:06:31.920 --> 0:06:35.480 with like big journal questions, they don't really say anything 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:37.720 they didn't want to say because it's all It all 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:42.400 feels in context and quite relaxed. So yeah, yeah, it's 0:06:42.400 --> 0:06:44.880 interesting because a few times you've mentioned the term journalism, 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:47.279 and I feel like I'm coming at this from like 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:49.720 I'm not a journalist, right, I mean, I'm a practitioner 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:52.479 in a certain industry that has nothing to do with journalism. 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:55.159 And then I'm also curious about humans and interested in 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:57.640 sort of building a reference library of how people think 0:06:57.640 --> 0:06:59.480 about their voice. So that is the part that feels 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:02.720 like it is there's a story and following, But I 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:04.360 don't know, it feels kind of liberating to be like, 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:06.520 I'm not a journalist, and I'm certainly not like a 0:07:06.520 --> 0:07:09.720 gotcha type of journalist who's like looking for the truth 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:11.400 at the expense of the trust of the human in 0:07:11.400 --> 0:07:16.640 the room with I think journalism is such a broad title, 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:20.440 and there are so many different ways to be a 0:07:20.520 --> 0:07:24.400 journalist now, podcast, blogging, Twitter, if you're reporting your stuff 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:26.280 that's going on, if you're commenting, we're all kind of 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:29.480 journalists now. It's it's it's just it's got very broad 0:07:29.520 --> 0:07:31.000 so I use it very broadly. I used to make 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:32.920 these TV shows where I would kind of go into 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:36.040 a into a situation like Mormonism, for example, and go 0:07:36.080 --> 0:07:39.000 and live with polygamous Mormons in a lot of your 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:41.920 documentaries are available on the web, but they are don't 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:43.360 watch my head, terrible hair and outfits it was a 0:07:43.400 --> 0:07:47.640 long time ago, but caps yes. But I would also 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:50.080 kind of put myself through an an immersive experience while 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:52.080 doing it, so I would live with them and live 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:55.160 as them. And I always found being called a journalist 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:57.880 really embarrassing because I was like, I'm not journalous. That's 0:07:57.920 --> 0:07:59.720 what people on the news do. When people call me 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:01.960 a journalist, I starts to feel like a real imposter. 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:04.840 I can't call myself that. If anyone ever introduced me 0:08:04.920 --> 0:08:06.640 as a journalist, I was like, Oh, that's awkward. Can 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:08.960 you just call me like a host presenter? And then 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:10.520 I had to find my ease with it because I 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:13.800 was I am going into a subject that the people 0:08:13.800 --> 0:08:17.080 watching don't know about, and I am finding out about 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:19.240 it for you, which is all journalism is. And you're 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:21.440 sitting here interviewing me. Is your listeners won't have a 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:23.800 clue who I am, and you're finding out about me 0:08:24.240 --> 0:08:26.120 for them. You are being a journalist. So I think 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:28.440 it's a very broad title. And you bring up something 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:30.880 very specific to you, which is that when we're a 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:34.240 host or presenter, often we're doing other people's copy. We're 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:37.280 fulfilling the needs of somebody above us, and your entire 0:08:37.400 --> 0:08:40.760 career has been driven by what interests you, yes, and 0:08:40.760 --> 0:08:44.360 the questions I want to ask, but always the person 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:46.480 sitting on the sofa at home watching I didn't know 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:49.559 it before, and therefore I have been a journalist anyway. 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:52.280 It's um, I mean, who cares what the title of 0:08:52.320 --> 0:08:53.920 what we do is? I mean, I'm somewhat obsessed with 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:55.960 it because like what I do, there's sort of a 0:08:56.000 --> 0:09:01.480 missing terms term. It's funny, isn't it? It's um, yeah, 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:08.760 we are we well actually, okay, So that next question. 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:12.040 So your book that came out recently, it's called So Lucky, 0:09:12.320 --> 0:09:17.280 and there's a podcast collection of interviews with largely women 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:19.720 about the topic of a lot of things, but about 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:22.760 the topic of luck and how they have, what their 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:25.480 relationship is to the concept of luck, and how it 0:09:25.520 --> 0:09:28.880 has or hasn't played a role in their accomplishments. And 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:31.240 it's made me think about the fact that I think 0:09:31.240 --> 0:09:33.160 a lot of us who are playing in similar spaces 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:34.880 right now, which when I say that, I think I 0:09:34.920 --> 0:09:39.680 kind of mean like how women slash people come into 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:42.800 their own like what's this sort of self actualization thing 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:46.880 is in Like a lot of us who are interested 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:49.640 in this similar stuff are finding what our lens in 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:53.040 is and I'm using I'm very much using the voice, 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:56.679 both the literal how we make sound that like lands 0:09:56.720 --> 0:09:59.239 on other humans, and also much more of the metaphorical 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:01.440 how we have figured out what matters to us and 0:10:01.440 --> 0:10:03.600 how we talk about it. I'm using the voice as 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:07.000 a lens to talk about so much societal stuff having 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:09.120 to do with power and how much space we're taking 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:11.760 up and how much we believe ourselves. And I feel 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:16.360 like luck is another lens into that it is. It's 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:19.079 quite an interesting subject because it kind of feels slightly 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:22.520 trivial until you really talk about it, like I just 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:26.000 watch the documentary for Summer. It's a documentary filmed by 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:29.080 a mother in Aleppo who's basically just trying to keep 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:32.360 her daughter Sammer, alive and away from the bombs and 0:10:32.400 --> 0:10:34.840 the heir and her husband set up hospitals and tried 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:37.559 desperately to help people and it's impossible and it's awful, 0:10:37.600 --> 0:10:41.200 and it's honestly the most harrowing but magnificent piece of 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:43.800 filmmaking because it's so personal and I believe if everyone 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:46.199 watched it would actually make the world a better place. Anyway, 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:50.480 my response from watching it is, God, I'm lucky. I 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:53.600 am so lucky just to have been born where I 0:10:53.720 --> 0:10:57.360 was born to be. I'm just everything about my life 0:10:57.360 --> 0:11:01.680 has privileged everything in terms of just the opportunities that 0:11:01.720 --> 0:11:05.000 I have, and so I didn't ask for, I didn't 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:08.560 do anything for. I'm just so bloody lucky not to 0:11:08.600 --> 0:11:12.000 have been born somewhere like Aleppo, where my daily struggle 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:15.480 is literally avoiding death. And in that way, we're all 0:11:15.559 --> 0:11:18.880 so lucky. In other ways, I slightly resent the term 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:22.080 luck because I feel like I'm a real grafter. I 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:25.760 was brought up on a tiny island just off France 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:29.559 where there was no opportunity, and I went on to 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:32.720 now have a career. And you had a really early 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:34.960 tragedy I did. I lost my mom when I was 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:37.040 just a couple of days before ten seven, Like the 0:11:37.040 --> 0:11:41.160 odds weren't massively in my favor, and I left the island. 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:43.600 I went to Liverpool, went to dramas school, moved to 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:46.000 London on my own, and now I live in Hollywood 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:48.120 and I work in the industry that I said I 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:50.319 was going to work in when I was twelve, and 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:53.040 that's taken graft and hard work. When people tell me 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:56.960 I'm lucky, I'm like, I'm not lucky. That's not that is, 0:11:57.080 --> 0:12:01.480 that's like persistence and just you know, not giving up, 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:02.959 because there were a couple of years when it was 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:04.960 a disaster and I could have given up, didn't. And 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:07.200 I see my husband Chris, who as an actor, who 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:09.880 was raised in a very small town in the west 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:12.640 of Ireland, and it's now like making movies and writing 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:15.680 TV shows that none of that's luck. Because I think 0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:17.559 you can be presented with a situation in life that 0:12:17.640 --> 0:12:20.000 might come across as lucky, and what you do next 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:23.280 is what makes that happen or not. So it's an 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:25.280 interesting subject, way more interesting than I thought it was 0:12:25.320 --> 0:12:27.439 going to be before I started the podcast. That's what's 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:30.400 gonna Has your feelings about luck changed from listening to 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:33.640 people's sort of grappling my tho, It has because most 0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:36.600 people will start just as I did, saying I'm lucky 0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:38.480 to be you know, born wer I was born and 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:41.440 not be you know, fleeing war and all of these 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:43.679 things that we all know we're lucky for. And so 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:45.040 then you think, all right, well, I hope that's not 0:12:45.080 --> 0:12:48.199 your only answer on luck. Because we all know that already. 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:49.920 But then it's you know, the conversation goes on and 0:12:49.960 --> 0:12:52.160 people look at luck in terms of their own personal life. 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:55.000 Some people have experienced tragedy. One of my guests lost 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:59.559 a child, and she still considers herself lucky because as 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:01.319 a family getting through it and just got two other 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:05.080 healthy children. And that's an amazing take on luck, like 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:07.640 a lot of people could be. I'm the unluckiest person 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:10.000 in the world because that happened. So you see how 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:13.800 someone's perspective drives them and luck does play a part 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:16.160 in that. So it's a good subject. I mean, yeah, 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:18.680 I mean the thing that I was thinking about. And 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:20.680 I want to go on to talk about other ways 0:13:20.679 --> 0:13:22.400 that your voice has played a role in your life 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:24.640 in terms of in your writing. But to sort of 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:28.360 tie this up, I feel like it matters to say 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:31.840 that the way that women think about, or have been 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:34.640 sort of conditioned to think about luck as a way 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:39.440 of explaining their accomplishments serves a certain social purpose of 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:41.440 making us sort of come across as humble and making 0:13:41.520 --> 0:13:44.600 us Maybe the really real way is making us remember 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:47.360 our privilege, which matters. But we can't let that be 0:13:47.400 --> 0:13:50.280 the whole story, or it will seem like our accomplishments 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:54.760 weren't our own fucking hardware exactly. So. Uh so, you're 0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:58.120 a writer in your thirties. After a career in front 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:00.040 of the camera, you switch and it seems like you 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:03.679 sort of found yourself. How do you decide what to 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:06.079 write about? Like? What feels risky? Well, what I mean 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:09.200 writing is like, apart from the fact that I feel 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:12.280 like I've given myself a lifetime of homework, which is 0:14:12.320 --> 0:14:13.839 how it feels, why do I have an essay to 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:16.760 write every day? What an amazing opportunity in life when 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:18.880 you feel like you've got a lot to say and 0:14:19.000 --> 0:14:21.760 it doesn't always have to be it's not always my perspective. 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:23.680 I've got a lot of thoughts, I think about people, 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:25.200 I see things in other people, and I get to 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:26.880 put all of that down in a book. Like writing 0:14:26.920 --> 0:14:29.280 fiction was the most liberating thing ever. I never thought 0:14:29.280 --> 0:14:31.760 i'd write it until I was an old lady kind 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:33.400 of and I thought, oh, I'll have a stab at 0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:36.120 writing some fiction. I always thought i'd write nonfiction because 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:39.840 that was literally me, literally my voice, literally my opinions, 0:14:39.920 --> 0:14:43.960 my thoughts, my experiences, And when you write fiction. You 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:46.200 get to go out there into the world and take 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:48.920 every example of every kind of person that you're interested 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:51.120 in and put it into a book. And I mean, 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:53.920 it's so fun to do that, and you feel you 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:57.560 can touch so many more people like my readers will 0:14:57.600 --> 0:15:01.800 say that they relate to different care actors and being 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:03.760 able to give them a character that they relate to, 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:06.760 that they see themselves in that maybe triumphs in the end, 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:09.640 you know, against all odds, whatever it is they're battling 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:12.600 with is it's just an honor to do it. You know, 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:14.640 it's such a wonderful thing to be able to do. 0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:18.800 It's very very addictive. My bravery comes with knowing that 0:15:19.160 --> 0:15:22.640 it's not real life, but I can push my characters 0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:25.840 to limits that real people do experience but maybe don't 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:29.480 necessarily talk about. And when you've got fiction as your tool, 0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:32.160 you know, it justifies a lot of stuff. There's a 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:34.200 lot of memoirs out there. There's a lot of really good, 0:15:34.200 --> 0:15:36.120 brutally honest ones, and there's a lot of memoirs that 0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:39.480 don't really go under the surface. Certain experience that happened. 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:41.480 They kind of allude to it, they say it happened 0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:44.160 in fiction. You get to just take the veneer off 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:47.160 and get stuck right in there and you're talking about 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:50.840 like sexual things and awkward things and body things. Yes, 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:53.640 body stuff, sexual stuff, just stuff that we all experience. 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:59.240 When you write fiction characters in first person, that's someone's thoughts. Now, 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:01.680 no matter what personal a woman says out loud in 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:05.880 real life, there is a million things behind those words 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:08.880 that are unedited in her head that maybe she feels 0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:11.240 like she can't say. When you're writing a character in 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:14.920 first person, you have to go there. Otherwise you're not 0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:17.760 in someone's head. And that is so fun, and that's 0:16:17.800 --> 0:16:20.040 where the bravery comes from. It's just being honest. I 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:22.320 might walk into a room and look at a woman 0:16:22.600 --> 0:16:25.440 and not like her outfit. I'm not going to say 0:16:25.440 --> 0:16:27.800 that out loud, but it's in my head, and in fiction, 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:29.320 I have to put that thought in the book because 0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:32.080 it's honest. And so you get to kind of not 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:35.680 be polite, not have to worry about offending anybody, and 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:42.400 just be really brutally honest. And I mean that's really fun. Um, Okay, 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:44.600 we're gonna take a quick break and then we're going 0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:47.320 to come back and talk about how you in your 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:49.160 own life. Have sort of dealt with what you're talking about, 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:51.720 which is sort of the voice on the inside versus 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:53.680 what comes out on the outside, because I think a 0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:57.320 lot of people who follow you on especially Instagram, which 0:16:57.360 --> 0:16:59.720 is like my medium of choice, would say you're sort 0:16:59.760 --> 0:17:03.680 of combining those things in a really authentic way. I 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:14.840 don't talking about authenticity. I mean, so social media, yes, 0:17:15.119 --> 0:17:18.720 it's like expanded to become I think, sort of a 0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:23.920 really legit part of your career. Yeah, like what is that? 0:17:24.080 --> 0:17:27.160 And how do you navigate how much you share? I mean, 0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:30.960 it's such a weird thing. I'm a real oversharer by nature, 0:17:31.600 --> 0:17:34.639 but I'm also quite private, so I've never posted a 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:37.400 picture of my children, have like a flat rule about that. 0:17:37.560 --> 0:17:39.919 Once I am posted the back of Valentine's head and 0:17:40.280 --> 0:17:42.480 it was fine, like you cann't see his face, but 0:17:42.560 --> 0:17:45.560 I felt really bad about it later that day. And 0:17:46.760 --> 0:17:50.800 that's for a number of reasons. And I also don't 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:54.640 really go into any detail about my marriage, and people 0:17:54.720 --> 0:17:57.240 think I'm really open and then I say everything, but 0:17:57.280 --> 0:18:00.320 actually it'd be kind of hard pushed to see my 0:18:00.400 --> 0:18:04.680 house really or it's all quite it's all it's all 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:08.240 quite edited in terms of I'll be honest about me 0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:10.440 and things when I'm out and about whatever, but I 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:13.560 really don't overshare in terms of personal life. It's like 0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:16.440 you've you've really cracked something in terms of I mean, 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:17.840 the term that just came to mind when you were 0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:22.600 talking is curated authenticity, which obviously sounds like a you know, 0:18:22.840 --> 0:18:27.560 an oxymoron. Yeah, but that is the thing meaning I 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:31.600 have privacy. I have boundaries, yes, very much, which I 0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:33.520 think you have to have, you know. I actually like 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:35.880 seeing pictures of other people's kids on social media because 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:37.880 I love children in that way. But I am surprised 0:18:37.920 --> 0:18:41.800 when like very well known people just go straight in 0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:44.000 with that, because we don't know what that's doing for 0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:46.480 the kids yet. My my idea of like my kid 0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:49.560 going to school and having a like a profile. Well, 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:52.320 and also our generation, we there was no anything until 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:56.240 we were like eighteen, perfect time. Yes, Well, there's a 0:18:56.280 --> 0:18:59.879 long running soap in um in England called Coronation Street 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:03.000 and in our school, one of the girls and he 0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:06.439 above me was a baby on that show. And I 0:19:06.520 --> 0:19:09.520 remember us all just being like, God, isn't that amazing? 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:12.440 And she was goddamn baby on that show. She wasn't. 0:19:12.640 --> 0:19:15.960 She wasn't an actress, and I remember, because I wanted 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:17.800 to be in the public eye back then, just kind 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:20.440 of seeing her as other and how exciting that was. 0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:22.520 And I'm like, God, now you can actually go to 0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:25.960 school and be a legit celebrity through your famous parents 0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:29.600 Instagram feed, and then you're not just a normal kid. 0:19:30.160 --> 0:19:32.200 So that's, you know, a big reason is to do it. 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:33.399 And also, I don't know if my kids are going 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:34.840 to want to be in the public eye, because you 0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:37.960 also got to school and be a celebrity child of 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:40.280 your own volition, if you have your own stuff, but 0:19:40.359 --> 0:19:42.760 that's clearly different choice. If they want to be in 0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:45.320 this industry, then that's one thing. But I don't know 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:47.520 if they're introverts or experts now, and it's not up 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:49.160 to me to give them a you know, to give 0:19:49.200 --> 0:19:51.760 them a celebrity status. So very kind of private about that, 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:54.600 and I am, you know, sometimes think of it without 0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:57.360 what was the phrase you just came up with, curated authenticity. 0:19:57.520 --> 0:19:59.560 What I do is really no more different from someone 0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:02.480 who own post beautiful pictures of themselves with you know, 0:20:02.560 --> 0:20:04.720 all the filters on. They're putting a version out there 0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:05.879 of the world that they want to see in the 0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:08.000 version of myself that I want the world to see 0:20:08.200 --> 0:20:12.439 is funny, happy, which of course I'm not always and 0:20:12.560 --> 0:20:17.200