Speaker 1: This is Tony Morrison. We die. That may be the
Speaker 1: meaning of life, but we do language that may be
Speaker 1: the measure of our lives. Our voice is a reflection
Speaker 1: of our life experience, where we've been and who we've
Speaker 1: listened to. But we can also own it and even
Speaker 1: change it if we want. This is the podcast that's
Speaker 1: all about the voice, but it's also all about power,
Speaker 1: Who has it, how we get it, and how we
Speaker 1: sound when we have it. I'm Samrve. I'm a dialect
Speaker 1: coach for actors in Hollywood on projects like the upcoming
Speaker 1: Wonder Woman's sequel, and I'm also a speech coach for entrepreneurs, politicians,
Speaker 1: creatives and women everywhere who need to use their voice
Speaker 1: to get what they want. Welcome to permission to speak.
Speaker 1: Let's do this. Today's guest is don oh Porter. That's
Speaker 1: oh Apostrophe Porter because she married Chris O'Dowd and did
Speaker 1: a very contemporary thing. I know, a portmanteau is what
Speaker 1: they call it in Fancyland. Down is a friend of mine.
Speaker 1: She's a British novelist living in Hollywood, and also I
Speaker 1: think for her as a social media star, which we
Speaker 1: will talk about. Her latest book is called So Lucky.
Speaker 1: It's a Sunday Times bestseller, which is sort of the
Speaker 1: as you'd imagine British equivalent of the New York Times,
Speaker 1: and it's about the facade of perfection that modern women
Speaker 1: accidentally construct for themselves. So we'll be getting into that.
Speaker 1: I wanted to have her on because she is truly
Speaker 1: one of my favorite Instagram presences and I'm interested in
Speaker 1: what that is like sort of the public performance of
Speaker 1: authenticity with maybe quotes around authenticity, but I find her
Speaker 1: online persona to be really accessible, yet really aspirational, and
Speaker 1: really messy and yet really adult, which is super inspiring,
Speaker 1: and we dive into what it takes to make that
Speaker 1: happen in this interview, Plus we get into the discipline
Speaker 1: side of channeling your voice onto the page. She also
Speaker 1: spent her twenties in front of the camera on British television,
Speaker 1: starring in popular documentaries about subjects like starving yourself to
Speaker 1: reach the ideal weight and the up and downsides of polygamy.
Speaker 1: So she has a long history of being incredibly revealing
Speaker 1: in front of the lens and also of being the
Speaker 1: creative decision maker of the content that she puts out
Speaker 1: In this episode, we also talk about boundaries. I have
Speaker 1: recently heard burn A Brown say that a good definition
Speaker 1: of boundaries is literally just what's okay and what's not okay,
Speaker 1: So finding that for ourselves, especially in terms of our
Speaker 1: public persona. And we also talk about the benefits of
Speaker 1: motherhood to making yourself right, which I always like to
Speaker 1: have that conversation, and the secret to holding the microphone
Speaker 1: at an event and talking like a real person. Here
Speaker 1: she is, I feel like I've just got to forty
Speaker 1: one and worked out how to use my tricks without
Speaker 1: being a pain in the arts in the room. But
Speaker 1: back then I was just bullsh Do you think that
Speaker 1: came about because of merely age, Yes, and also just
Speaker 1: realizing what is annoying in other people and being like
Speaker 1: a heclo in a room, isn't actually that funny? And
Speaker 1: learning when to be funny and when to be not,
Speaker 1: And also just the realization and the comfort in I
Speaker 1: don't have to walk into every single room and have
Speaker 1: everyone noticed me and like me. My exhausting need to
Speaker 1: be liked was something that was that drove that all
Speaker 1: the time. I want everyone in this room to think
Speaker 1: I'm funny. I want everyone in this room to think
Speaker 1: I'm smart, and now I just think kind of age, maturity,
Speaker 1: marriage and being a mom and having kind of ticks
Speaker 1: off a lot of career boxes. Just can't really be
Speaker 1: bothered anymore with that's not so important. I feel like
Speaker 1: this is like a recovery club that we could maybe
Speaker 1: um recovery, but like also it would be like a
Speaker 1: really cool club to be a part of. We're in
Speaker 1: it tomorrow. There's so many places I can go, but
Speaker 1: I'm actually going to go back to the top. So welcome,
Speaker 1: thank you. I'm glad to have you here. Okay, so
Speaker 1: my very first question is really just totally self serving,
Speaker 1: which is what have you learned about podcasting from hosting
Speaker 1: a lovely question? I mean, you know you're the expert
Speaker 1: to let people answer your question. I think one of
Speaker 1: the things that you do when you start off in hosting,
Speaker 1: which is something that I've definitely learned over the years,
Speaker 1: is when you've asked a question, give them space to answer.
Speaker 1: And I think that's the best you can do when
Speaker 1: you're hosting a podcast really is just to like indulge
Speaker 1: in your guest and let them be your guest. I've
Speaker 1: also learned to not be rigid and when a conversation
Speaker 1: goes in a direction even if it wasn't what I
Speaker 1: was expecting, to just roll with it because I think
Speaker 1: that's the best kind of journalist and that you can
Speaker 1: possibly create, is when you follow a story or a moment,
Speaker 1: and I love all that. And also just to be
Speaker 1: interested in people, like really really interested, which is which
Speaker 1: connects to the other part of the question I think,
Speaker 1: which is this is totally self serving all them. I
Speaker 1: hope it is relevant for listeners as well. But how
Speaker 1: do you come up with questions? I mean, have you
Speaker 1: found that you really just want to ask, like what
Speaker 1: really comes to mind? I think the most actually want
Speaker 1: to know the answer. Yeah. I also I don't plan
Speaker 1: questions beforehand. Got like two things that I know that
Speaker 1: I can bring it back to if it's going dry,
Speaker 1: and that's I have that. But I always just think,
Speaker 1: really good conversational list So take the microphones away, take
Speaker 1: the headphones away, take the pressure of interview away. What
Speaker 1: what I want to talk to the person about in
Speaker 1: the pub and that's it, and just have a conversation.
Speaker 1: And I think as soon as I start thinking of
Speaker 1: it in terms of like an interview where I have
Speaker 1: to get this stuff. The podcast kind of loses it's
Speaker 1: it's charm a bit. I used to do TV, whereas
Speaker 1: actually like interviewing people and you have to for the
Speaker 1: sake of the segment, have you know a plan. That's
Speaker 1: very different from podcasting. I think the joy of this
Speaker 1: medium is that you can just freestyle and be interested
Speaker 1: in people and ask whatever comes to mind and that
Speaker 1: you know. And also you're in a situation where at
Speaker 1: the end, I had one of my friends on my podcast,
Speaker 1: she really opened up to me about how she felt
Speaker 1: about being a mom and it wasn't all rosy, and
Speaker 1: I just said to at the start, just talk to
Speaker 1: me and we'll have our conversation. And at the end,
Speaker 1: if you're upset about anything that you said, we'll take
Speaker 1: it out. It's fine. But generally, when you offer someone
Speaker 1: a kind of comfortable space and you're not firing them
Speaker 1: with like big journal questions, they don't really say anything
Speaker 1: they didn't want to say because it's all It all
Speaker 1: feels in context and quite relaxed. So yeah, yeah, it's
Speaker 1: interesting because a few times you've mentioned the term journalism,
Speaker 1: and I feel like I'm coming at this from like
Speaker 1: I'm not a journalist, right, I mean, I'm a practitioner
Speaker 1: in a certain industry that has nothing to do with journalism.
Speaker 1: And then I'm also curious about humans and interested in
Speaker 1: sort of building a reference library of how people think
Speaker 1: about their voice. So that is the part that feels
Speaker 1: like it is there's a story and following, But I
Speaker 1: don't know, it feels kind of liberating to be like,
Speaker 1: I'm not a journalist, and I'm certainly not like a
Speaker 1: gotcha type of journalist who's like looking for the truth
Speaker 1: at the expense of the trust of the human in
Speaker 1: the room with I think journalism is such a broad title,
Speaker 1: and there are so many different ways to be a
Speaker 1: journalist now, podcast, blogging, Twitter, if you're reporting your stuff
Speaker 1: that's going on, if you're commenting, we're all kind of
Speaker 1: journalists now. It's it's it's just it's got very broad
Speaker 1: so I use it very broadly. I used to make
Speaker 1: these TV shows where I would kind of go into
Speaker 1: a into a situation like Mormonism, for example, and go
Speaker 1: and live with polygamous Mormons in a lot of your
Speaker 1: documentaries are available on the web, but they are don't
Speaker 1: watch my head, terrible hair and outfits it was a
Speaker 1: long time ago, but caps yes. But I would also
Speaker 1: kind of put myself through an an immersive experience while
Speaker 1: doing it, so I would live with them and live
Speaker 1: as them. And I always found being called a journalist
Speaker 1: really embarrassing because I was like, I'm not journalous. That's
Speaker 1: what people on the news do. When people call me
Speaker 1: a journalist, I starts to feel like a real imposter.
Speaker 1: I can't call myself that. If anyone ever introduced me
Speaker 1: as a journalist, I was like, Oh, that's awkward. Can
Speaker 1: you just call me like a host presenter? And then
Speaker 1: I had to find my ease with it because I
Speaker 1: was I am going into a subject that the people
Speaker 1: watching don't know about, and I am finding out about
Speaker 1: it for you, which is all journalism is. And you're
Speaker 1: sitting here interviewing me. Is your listeners won't have a
Speaker 1: clue who I am, and you're finding out about me
Speaker 1: for them. You are being a journalist. So I think
Speaker 1: it's a very broad title. And you bring up something
Speaker 1: very specific to you, which is that when we're a
Speaker 1: host or presenter, often we're doing other people's copy. We're
Speaker 1: fulfilling the needs of somebody above us, and your entire
Speaker 1: career has been driven by what interests you, yes, and
Speaker 1: the questions I want to ask, but always the person
Speaker 1: sitting on the sofa at home watching I didn't know
Speaker 1: it before, and therefore I have been a journalist anyway.
Speaker 1: It's um, I mean, who cares what the title of
Speaker 1: what we do is? I mean, I'm somewhat obsessed with
Speaker 1: it because like what I do, there's sort of a
Speaker 1: missing terms term. It's funny, isn't it? It's um, yeah,
Speaker 1: we are we well actually, okay, So that next question.
Speaker 1: So your book that came out recently, it's called So Lucky,
Speaker 1: and there's a podcast collection of interviews with largely women
Speaker 1: about the topic of a lot of things, but about
Speaker 1: the topic of luck and how they have, what their
Speaker 1: relationship is to the concept of luck, and how it
Speaker 1: has or hasn't played a role in their accomplishments. And
Speaker 1: it's made me think about the fact that I think
Speaker 1: a lot of us who are playing in similar spaces
Speaker 1: right now, which when I say that, I think I
Speaker 1: kind of mean like how women slash people come into
Speaker 1: their own like what's this sort of self actualization thing
Speaker 1: is in Like a lot of us who are interested
Speaker 1: in this similar stuff are finding what our lens in
Speaker 1: is and I'm using I'm very much using the voice,
Speaker 1: both the literal how we make sound that like lands
Speaker 1: on other humans, and also much more of the metaphorical
Speaker 1: how we have figured out what matters to us and
Speaker 1: how we talk about it. I'm using the voice as
Speaker 1: a lens to talk about so much societal stuff having
Speaker 1: to do with power and how much space we're taking
Speaker 1: up and how much we believe ourselves. And I feel
Speaker 1: like luck is another lens into that it is. It's
Speaker 1: quite an interesting subject because it kind of feels slightly
Speaker 1: trivial until you really talk about it, like I just
Speaker 1: watch the documentary for Summer. It's a documentary filmed by
Speaker 1: a mother in Aleppo who's basically just trying to keep
Speaker 1: her daughter Sammer, alive and away from the bombs and
Speaker 1: the heir and her husband set up hospitals and tried
Speaker 1: desperately to help people and it's impossible and it's awful,
Speaker 1: and it's honestly the most harrowing but magnificent piece of
Speaker 1: filmmaking because it's so personal and I believe if everyone
Speaker 1: watched it would actually make the world a better place. Anyway,
Speaker 1: my response from watching it is, God, I'm lucky. I
Speaker 1: am so lucky just to have been born where I
Speaker 1: was born to be. I'm just everything about my life
Speaker 1: has privileged everything in terms of just the opportunities that
Speaker 1: I have, and so I didn't ask for, I didn't
Speaker 1: do anything for. I'm just so bloody lucky not to
Speaker 1: have been born somewhere like Aleppo, where my daily struggle
Speaker 1: is literally avoiding death. And in that way, we're all
Speaker 1: so lucky. In other ways, I slightly resent the term
Speaker 1: luck because I feel like I'm a real grafter. I
Speaker 1: was brought up on a tiny island just off France
Speaker 1: where there was no opportunity, and I went on to
Speaker 1: now have a career. And you had a really early
Speaker 1: tragedy I did. I lost my mom when I was
Speaker 1: just a couple of days before ten seven, Like the
Speaker 1: odds weren't massively in my favor, and I left the island.
Speaker 1: I went to Liverpool, went to dramas school, moved to
Speaker 1: London on my own, and now I live in Hollywood
Speaker 1: and I work in the industry that I said I
Speaker 1: was going to work in when I was twelve, and
Speaker 1: that's taken graft and hard work. When people tell me
Speaker 1: I'm lucky, I'm like, I'm not lucky. That's not that is,
Speaker 1: that's like persistence and just you know, not giving up,
Speaker 1: because there were a couple of years when it was
Speaker 1: a disaster and I could have given up, didn't. And
Speaker 1: I see my husband Chris, who as an actor, who
Speaker 1: was raised in a very small town in the west
Speaker 1: of Ireland, and it's now like making movies and writing
Speaker 1: TV shows that none of that's luck. Because I think
Speaker 1: you can be presented with a situation in life that
Speaker 1: might come across as lucky, and what you do next
Speaker 1: is what makes that happen or not. So it's an
Speaker 1: interesting subject, way more interesting than I thought it was
Speaker 1: going to be before I started the podcast. That's what's
Speaker 1: gonna Has your feelings about luck changed from listening to
Speaker 1: people's sort of grappling my tho, It has because most
Speaker 1: people will start just as I did, saying I'm lucky
Speaker 1: to be you know, born wer I was born and
Speaker 1: not be you know, fleeing war and all of these
Speaker 1: things that we all know we're lucky for. And so
Speaker 1: then you think, all right, well, I hope that's not
Speaker 1: your only answer on luck. Because we all know that already.
Speaker 1: But then it's you know, the conversation goes on and
Speaker 1: people look at luck in terms of their own personal life.
Speaker 1: Some people have experienced tragedy. One of my guests lost
Speaker 1: a child, and she still considers herself lucky because as
Speaker 1: a family getting through it and just got two other
Speaker 1: healthy children. And that's an amazing take on luck, like
Speaker 1: a lot of people could be. I'm the unluckiest person
Speaker 1: in the world because that happened. So you see how
Speaker 1: someone's perspective drives them and luck does play a part
Speaker 1: in that. So it's a good subject. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean the thing that I was thinking about. And
Speaker 1: I want to go on to talk about other ways
Speaker 1: that your voice has played a role in your life
Speaker 1: in terms of in your writing. But to sort of
Speaker 1: tie this up, I feel like it matters to say
Speaker 1: that the way that women think about, or have been
Speaker 1: sort of conditioned to think about luck as a way
Speaker 1: of explaining their accomplishments serves a certain social purpose of
Speaker 1: making us sort of come across as humble and making
Speaker 1: us Maybe the really real way is making us remember
Speaker 1: our privilege, which matters. But we can't let that be
Speaker 1: the whole story, or it will seem like our accomplishments
Speaker 1: weren't our own fucking hardware exactly. So. Uh so, you're
Speaker 1: a writer in your thirties. After a career in front
Speaker 1: of the camera, you switch and it seems like you
Speaker 1: sort of found yourself. How do you decide what to
Speaker 1: write about? Like? What feels risky? Well, what I mean
Speaker 1: writing is like, apart from the fact that I feel
Speaker 1: like I've given myself a lifetime of homework, which is
Speaker 1: how it feels, why do I have an essay to
Speaker 1: write every day? What an amazing opportunity in life when
Speaker 1: you feel like you've got a lot to say and
Speaker 1: it doesn't always have to be it's not always my perspective.
Speaker 1: I've got a lot of thoughts, I think about people,
Speaker 1: I see things in other people, and I get to
Speaker 1: put all of that down in a book. Like writing
Speaker 1: fiction was the most liberating thing ever. I never thought
Speaker 1: i'd write it until I was an old lady kind
Speaker 1: of and I thought, oh, I'll have a stab at
Speaker 1: writing some fiction. I always thought i'd write nonfiction because
Speaker 1: that was literally me, literally my voice, literally my opinions,
Speaker 1: my thoughts, my experiences, And when you write fiction. You
Speaker 1: get to go out there into the world and take
Speaker 1: every example of every kind of person that you're interested
Speaker 1: in and put it into a book. And I mean,
Speaker 1: it's so fun to do that, and you feel you
Speaker 1: can touch so many more people like my readers will
Speaker 1: say that they relate to different care actors and being
Speaker 1: able to give them a character that they relate to,
Speaker 1: that they see themselves in that maybe triumphs in the end,
Speaker 1: you know, against all odds, whatever it is they're battling
Speaker 1: with is it's just an honor to do it. You know,
Speaker 1: it's such a wonderful thing to be able to do.
Speaker 1: It's very very addictive. My bravery comes with knowing that
Speaker 1: it's not real life, but I can push my characters
Speaker 1: to limits that real people do experience but maybe don't
Speaker 1: necessarily talk about. And when you've got fiction as your tool,
Speaker 1: you know, it justifies a lot of stuff. There's a
Speaker 1: lot of memoirs out there. There's a lot of really good,
Speaker 1: brutally honest ones, and there's a lot of memoirs that
Speaker 1: don't really go under the surface. Certain experience that happened.
Speaker 1: They kind of allude to it, they say it happened
Speaker 1: in fiction. You get to just take the veneer off
Speaker 1: and get stuck right in there and you're talking about
Speaker 1: like sexual things and awkward things and body things. Yes,
Speaker 1: body stuff, sexual stuff, just stuff that we all experience.
Speaker 1: When you write fiction characters in first person, that's someone's thoughts. Now,
Speaker 1: no matter what personal a woman says out loud in
Speaker 1: real life, there is a million things behind those words
Speaker 1: that are unedited in her head that maybe she feels
Speaker 1: like she can't say. When you're writing a character in
Speaker 1: first person, you have to go there. Otherwise you're not
Speaker 1: in someone's head. And that is so fun, and that's
Speaker 1: where the bravery comes from. It's just being honest. I
Speaker 1: might walk into a room and look at a woman
Speaker 1: and not like her outfit. I'm not going to say
Speaker 1: that out loud, but it's in my head, and in fiction,
Speaker 1: I have to put that thought in the book because
Speaker 1: it's honest. And so you get to kind of not
Speaker 1: be polite, not have to worry about offending anybody, and
Speaker 1: just be really brutally honest. And I mean that's really fun. Um, Okay,
Speaker 1: we're gonna take a quick break and then we're going
Speaker 1: to come back and talk about how you in your
Speaker 1: own life. Have sort of dealt with what you're talking about,
Speaker 1: which is sort of the voice on the inside versus
Speaker 1: what comes out on the outside, because I think a
Speaker 1: lot of people who follow you on especially Instagram, which
Speaker 1: is like my medium of choice, would say you're sort
Speaker 1: of combining those things in a really authentic way. I
Speaker 1: don't talking about authenticity. I mean, so social media, yes,
Speaker 1: it's like expanded to become I think, sort of a
Speaker 1: really legit part of your career. Yeah, like what is that?
Speaker 1: And how do you navigate how much you share? I mean,
Speaker 1: it's such a weird thing. I'm a real oversharer by nature,
Speaker 1: but I'm also quite private, so I've never posted a
Speaker 1: picture of my children, have like a flat rule about that.
Speaker 1: Once I am posted the back of Valentine's head and
Speaker 1: it was fine, like you cann't see his face, but
Speaker 1: I felt really bad about it later that day. And
Speaker 1: that's for a number of reasons. And I also don't
Speaker 1: really go into any detail about my marriage, and people
Speaker 1: think I'm really open and then I say everything, but
Speaker 1: actually it'd be kind of hard pushed to see my
Speaker 1: house really or it's all quite it's all it's all
Speaker 1: quite edited in terms of I'll be honest about me
Speaker 1: and things when I'm out and about whatever, but I
Speaker 1: really don't overshare in terms of personal life. It's like
Speaker 1: you've you've really cracked something in terms of I mean,
Speaker 1: the term that just came to mind when you were
Speaker 1: talking is curated authenticity, which obviously sounds like a you know,
Speaker 1: an oxymoron. Yeah, but that is the thing meaning I
Speaker 1: have privacy. I have boundaries, yes, very much, which I
Speaker 1: think you have to have, you know. I actually like
Speaker 1: seeing pictures of other people's kids on social media because
Speaker 1: I love children in that way. But I am surprised
Speaker 1: when like very well known people just go straight in
Speaker 1: with that, because we don't know what that's doing for
Speaker 1: the kids yet. My my idea of like my kid
Speaker 1: going to school and having a like a profile. Well,
Speaker 1: and also our generation, we there was no anything until
Speaker 1: we were like eighteen, perfect time. Yes, Well, there's a
Speaker 1: long running soap in um in England called Coronation Street
Speaker 1: and in our school, one of the girls and he
Speaker 1: above me was a baby on that show. And I
Speaker 1: remember us all just being like, God, isn't that amazing?
Speaker 1: And she was goddamn baby on that show. She wasn't.
Speaker 1: She wasn't an actress, and I remember, because I wanted
Speaker 1: to be in the public eye back then, just kind
Speaker 1: of seeing her as other and how exciting that was.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, God, now you can actually go to
Speaker 1: school and be a legit celebrity through your famous parents
Speaker 1: Instagram feed, and then you're not just a normal kid.
Speaker 1: So that's, you know, a big reason is to do it.
Speaker 1: And also, I don't know if my kids are going
Speaker 1: to want to be in the public eye, because you
Speaker 1: also got to school and be a celebrity child of
Speaker 1: your own volition, if you have your own stuff, but
Speaker 1: that's clearly different choice. If they want to be in
Speaker 1: this industry, then that's one thing. But I don't know
Speaker 1: if they're introverts or experts now, and it's not up
Speaker 1: to me to give them a you know, to give
Speaker 1: them a celebrity status. So very kind of private about that,
Speaker 1: and I am, you know, sometimes think of it without
Speaker 1: what was the phrase you just came up with, curated authenticity.
Speaker 1: What I do is really no more different from someone
Speaker 1: who own post beautiful pictures of themselves with you know,
Speaker 1: all the filters on. They're putting a version out there
Speaker 1: of the world that they want to see in the
Speaker 1: version of myself that I want the world to see
Speaker 1: is funny, happy, which of course I'm not always and
Speaker 1: just kind of my Instagram persona is kind of a silly,
Speaker 1: fun best bits, and you know, a lot of ranting
Speaker 1: about refugees, and I've got my cause as well. But
Speaker 1: but but most of them, there's a there's a messiness
Speaker 1: that you're not afraid to show. I have no interest
Speaker 1: on all of those people seeing me online looking a
Speaker 1: certain way or being some sort of living a perfect
Speaker 1: life and then the meeting me in real life and
Speaker 1: being horribly disappointed. And yet you just wrote a book
Speaker 1: about three different women who are experiencing a very like
Speaker 1: how they're perceived is different than what their inner life is. Yes,
Speaker 1: because we all do that, Like like I just said,
Speaker 1: I'm doing that. I'm putting out the funny side of me,
Speaker 1: like I'm always like people say, God, you and Christmas
Speaker 1: just have this hilarious marriage, and like, yeah too, I
Speaker 1: mean you have a good time, but also like marriage
Speaker 1: is also can be awful and hard and tie it.
Speaker 1: We've got to like a five year old and two
Speaker 1: and a half yorld, We're always tired. Valentine just doesn't
Speaker 1: like sleeping. It's like Chris and I both work full
Speaker 1: time and we don't have an awful lot of childcare,
Speaker 1: and it's like this constant battle and constant and that's
Speaker 1: the reality of our life. But I don't want to
Speaker 1: put that on the internet. It wants to see that,
Speaker 1: So I just do the funny bits. When you know
Speaker 1: I have a funny interaction in the world. Well, I
Speaker 1: would argue you do do a little bit of a
Speaker 1: little too. And I think what a lot of us
Speaker 1: respond to is how much you're like, parenthood is not
Speaker 1: always rosy, and you don't you know, that doesn't mean
Speaker 1: that you're revealing things about your child, but it does
Speaker 1: mean you're revealing things that all of us can relate
Speaker 1: to in terms of like, I'm thinking of someone that
Speaker 1: you posted recently where there was like bubble bath on
Speaker 1: your stove. I had one of lit nights where I
Speaker 1: was just all the cliches of husband being out and
Speaker 1: kids finally went to bed, and I was like, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna have a glass of wine in the bath, and
Speaker 1: I pulled way too much bubble bath in the bath
Speaker 1: and it just exploded with bubbles and then I remembered
Speaker 1: that I put sausages in the oven, so I had
Speaker 1: to get out the bath. The bath was a bit
Speaker 1: too hot anyway, so I put the cold tap on,
Speaker 1: got out the bath, got the sausages out, the oven
Speaker 1: still covered in bubbles. There's like residue of bath left
Speaker 1: on the oven. The sausages were saved. I forgot about
Speaker 1: the bath by the time I go back into the
Speaker 1: bathroom and there's so much cold water in it that
Speaker 1: it's almost freezing, and the bubbles are leaking out onto
Speaker 1: the floor. And so I couldn't get back in the
Speaker 1: bath because there's no hot water left, and I kind
Speaker 1: of shamefully let loads of water go down the drain.
Speaker 1: So I felt really guilty on environmental though about that.
Speaker 1: And I didn't get my bath, and I there's just
Speaker 1: like sat in bed, like still some bubbles like popping
Speaker 1: on my legs, drank my glass one in bed. But
Speaker 1: also importantly took a picture of it. Yes, took a
Speaker 1: bitch of it, documented it, because that's the kind of
Speaker 1: thing I think he's sharing. I mean, I think there's
Speaker 1: I think there might have even been my only post
Speaker 1: Dad day about at the moment that I decided to
Speaker 1: share a bitch of bubbles on the oven. So when
Speaker 1: you think about your career and where you are right now,
Speaker 1: I think part of what we're seeing in your Instagram
Speaker 1: persona is that it feels like you have peace around definitely.
Speaker 1: And also, like sometimes I say to myself, I still
Speaker 1: feel like I used to feel when I make my documentaries.
Speaker 1: When people call me a journalist, I feel really silly.
Speaker 1: That just feels crazy you're calling me that. And I
Speaker 1: had that feeling of being a novelist for a long time, like, no,
Speaker 1: that's what like six year old women who live in
Speaker 1: the country and write in their shed and write novels
Speaker 1: about war and properly researched. I'm wonderly writing a book
Speaker 1: proposal right now, as you well know, because you helped
Speaker 1: me with like how to think about diving into that.
Speaker 1: And I truly when I was approached by a book
Speaker 1: agent to sort of construct this, I was like, I'm
Speaker 1: pretty sure books through older people. Yeah, And it's like
Speaker 1: what and so you was there, I know, and so
Speaker 1: you kind of presume that. And then recently I've been like,
Speaker 1: I'm forty one, Like that's a legit age. I'm not
Speaker 1: and I feel but I am one. I've written seven books.
Speaker 1: I'm like, it's okay for me now to say I'm
Speaker 1: an author, I'm a novelist. I don't know what more
Speaker 1: I can do and what other points in my life
Speaker 1: where I have to stop feeling like that's an embarrassing
Speaker 1: thing to say. And so I've definitely got to that
Speaker 1: point now, which is a real comfort because it's been
Speaker 1: what I've done for years. But you know, you just
Speaker 1: feel silly. It's like just I can't when I was
Speaker 1: thirty five and Hi, I'm an author? What the hell?
Speaker 1: What does that even mean? I mean, this is a
Speaker 1: challenge though, Like is the answer for everybody listening who's
Speaker 1: not yet forty just like hold on and you'll get there.
Speaker 1: Or is it that we can continually work on, you know,
Speaker 1: like what that is in us, that impastor syndrome. Yes,
Speaker 1: but also like take stock of what it is that
Speaker 1: you do. If you do it, you are it and
Speaker 1: that's what you realize. And there's got to be a
Speaker 1: point where you kind of don't feel silly about the
Speaker 1: things that you do and that you're passionate about. And
Speaker 1: that's what I've finally got to and I wish I'd
Speaker 1: felt like this for like the last I'm married to
Speaker 1: a man who is really well known, so he was
Speaker 1: an acting Bridesmaids and when he did Bridesmaids. When we
Speaker 1: first got together, my career had fallen apart. It was
Speaker 1: going really, really badly, and I was suddenly in the
Speaker 1: room at all these big Hollywood parties and with all
Speaker 1: of these people who are considered successful, and they would
Speaker 1: say what do you do? And I had made ten
Speaker 1: thirteen documentaries, I'd already written a book, but because I
Speaker 1: was going through a bad time, I would just be like,
Speaker 1: oh nothing, I think I'm just basically a plus one,
Speaker 1: and just had no confidence. And it's such a damn
Speaker 1: shame because what I should have said is but all
Speaker 1: of these people in this industry understand is what It's
Speaker 1: a bit dry at the moment. But I've done all
Speaker 1: these amazing things, and I'm I should be in this room.
Speaker 1: And it just took me ages to have the confidence
Speaker 1: to kind of go when they say what do you do,
Speaker 1: which everyone asked you in Hollywood constantly, to go, I'm
Speaker 1: a writer, and not feel silly about it. But it's
Speaker 1: just such a revelation and I just look back on
Speaker 1: that and go, God, what a waste think. So I
Speaker 1: think we all think, especially this is I think a
Speaker 1: woman thing. We all think like I better take care
Speaker 1: of the other person and not sort of like over
Speaker 1: sell myself for sort of come across as to whatever
Speaker 1: to inflated. But what we're actually doing is we're not
Speaker 1: taking care of the other person. Everybody wants us to
Speaker 1: answer the direct answer they do. And also one thing
Speaker 1: that is, like I've learned from being in this industry
Speaker 1: now for a long time, my position in Hollywood is
Speaker 1: strange because I'm in it, but it's not me. I'm
Speaker 1: kind of the the bystander, and I observe and I
Speaker 1: get a different side of people than Chris maybe gets
Speaker 1: sometimes maybe a lot more real. And what I've realized
Speaker 1: is it doesn't matter who you're speaking to in that room,
Speaker 1: how successful they are, they feel exactly the same way
Speaker 1: as you do. And no actor at the top of
Speaker 1: their game presumes it's gonna last forever. And everyone's nervous
Speaker 1: about the next job, no matter who they are. And
Speaker 1: I've had conversations with people that you would think never
Speaker 1: get this feeling, and they get it all the time.
Speaker 1: And once you realize that everyone's a little bit insecure,
Speaker 1: and every artist is questioning where they're going, worried they're
Speaker 1: making the wrong decisions. And I wasn't the only person
Speaker 1: who in the room who used to feel that way,
Speaker 1: yet I presumed I was. And as soon as you
Speaker 1: realize that everyone we're all the same, then your confidence
Speaker 1: of what can go up because you stop seeing yourself
Speaker 1: as lesser. That's actually I mean, I sort of joke
Speaker 1: that every time in a in these interviews, I say,
Speaker 1: that's actually the point of my podcast, and it's usually
Speaker 1: a different point. So I hope you're following along at home.
Speaker 1: But but it is literally about our voices, but also
Speaker 1: about sort of how we conceive of ourselves taking up
Speaker 1: space and having power and all that in the world.
Speaker 1: There is this sense that we often have of this
Speaker 1: isolated quality of like, my experience is just mine and
Speaker 1: no one gets me, and I'm abnormal and I'm insecure
Speaker 1: when everyone else seems you know, And obviously social media
Speaker 1: can kind of exacerbate this problem. But like part of
Speaker 1: the point of talking about this stuff is saying, actually,
Speaker 1: there is like a tapestry of connections of all of
Speaker 1: us going through some version of this and that when
Speaker 1: we have those moments of dare I speak up for myself?
Speaker 1: Darry even just say what it is that I do
Speaker 1: without apology in my voice? Can I remember that I'm
Speaker 1: doing this on behalf of all of us, that all
Speaker 1: of us are here for each other. You're saying with
Speaker 1: out apology in my voice? Is such? I mean that
Speaker 1: is that I don't have daughters. If I did, that
Speaker 1: would be my thing. I would want to teach them
Speaker 1: more than anything else. Is. I don't literally mean don't
Speaker 1: say sorry. I mean stop putting yourself down. We do
Speaker 1: it so much. We do it so much of like
Speaker 1: like I did back in the dead of like what
Speaker 1: do you do? Or nothing? Really haven't done anything. What
Speaker 1: I should have said was I've made documentaries about like
Speaker 1: Geisha in Japan, Mormon polygamous, I've been on the front
Speaker 1: line of some like really like good news stories and
Speaker 1: I was kind of like, but it's not as good
Speaker 1: as what you do. And I often I have found
Speaker 1: myself in like sort of coaching positions when I'm coaching
Speaker 1: somebody for maybe a presentation they're doing or something like that,
Speaker 1: but what comes up is that they don't actually love
Speaker 1: those moments, so sort of cocktail banter moments of how
Speaker 1: do you say what you do? And something that I
Speaker 1: found that works with almost everybody, maybe everybody, is that
Speaker 1: if we don't like our title because it doesn't fulfill
Speaker 1: you know, sort of the actual idea of what we do,
Speaker 1: like I was talking about earlier, or we're struggling with
Speaker 1: like what's currently happening in the moment with our career
Speaker 1: and whether or not we can define ourselves by that.
Speaker 1: You know, we can figure out with like one sentence
Speaker 1: that maybe we even like semi practice ahead of time.
Speaker 1: How did go from what I do to what I
Speaker 1: love about what I do? Yeah, I'd like to have
Speaker 1: you talk a little tiny bit about like specific advice
Speaker 1: for people. You were very pivotal. It was really just
Speaker 1: a few minutes when we sat out together on a
Speaker 1: chaise long at the women's coworking space that we have
Speaker 1: erwhile and members of, and I was getting into this
Speaker 1: book proposal Land, and you were like think of each
Speaker 1: chapter as a which was clearly a way of just
Speaker 1: like taking the pressure off. I know you've said that
Speaker 1: you sort of sit down to write nine to five
Speaker 1: every day. What happens in the nine to five range, like,
Speaker 1: how do you talk to yourself? Well, I, firstly, I've
Speaker 1: been paid and I have a contract, and I don't
Speaker 1: mean that sounds strange, but that it's literally my job
Speaker 1: and I have to do it. And usually it feels
Speaker 1: like time is sort of urgent, like, well, yeah, before
Speaker 1: I had kids, had to sit at my computu, and
Speaker 1: now I have to treat my job as nine to five,
Speaker 1: which was that took a couple of years to retrain
Speaker 1: my brain to be able to do that, because, you know,
Speaker 1: being creative and trying to look that into a few
Speaker 1: hours a day when you have to sit down didn't
Speaker 1: work for ages, and now I've got quite good at it.
Speaker 1: When when it wasn't working, was it like like full
Speaker 1: on writer's block or was it of like having juggle
Speaker 1: or what? You know? What was that? Weirdly, having kids
Speaker 1: focused me quite well from the start, but I just
Speaker 1: had to kind of retrain my brain to work within
Speaker 1: a certain amount of hours. It was a relief actually,
Speaker 1: because I get more done in a few hours of
Speaker 1: a day than I used to in a twenty four
Speaker 1: hour period when I just had all the time in
Speaker 1: the world. But I have friends who work in the
Speaker 1: creative industry, and that will be like if I have kids,
Speaker 1: how will I do my job? And I'm like, you'll
Speaker 1: be amazed. The focus it gives you and the energy
Speaker 1: it gives you weirdly, even though you're always tired, is
Speaker 1: very useful. And for me and a lot of my friends,
Speaker 1: it's done. It's better Like with that kind of you know,
Speaker 1: focus of time. My career has absolutely gotten better since
Speaker 1: I had a kid. Crazy thing to be able to say,
Speaker 1: because I feel like we've all been socialized to think
Speaker 1: that the oppist is going to be true. It is
Speaker 1: so true for me and a lot of people I
Speaker 1: know who work, especially in creative arts or freelance or
Speaker 1: self employed, where they have had a rocket put up
Speaker 1: there asked when they have a kid, and it just
Speaker 1: motivates them and focuses them. And for me, that was
Speaker 1: exactly what happened. So in terms of giving people advice
Speaker 1: and it comes to writing, I love that master class
Speaker 1: app where you can pay for a subscription. You've got
Speaker 1: like Margaret Atward doing a master class in writing, and
Speaker 1: here all these kind of people talking about how they
Speaker 1: do things, and then there's no real one formula to
Speaker 1: do anything. So I am a writer with no massive
Speaker 1: formula to how I write. But I can see you
Speaker 1: starting your book and just think, one of the scariest
Speaker 1: things about writing a book is just this blank page,
Speaker 1: three hundred blank pages that you have to fill and
Speaker 1: so you break that down into tiny sections and suddenly
Speaker 1: you've only got two thousand words to write that week,
Speaker 1: which is a lot easier to think about than having
Speaker 1: a hundred thousand words to write. So that's my advice,
Speaker 1: and then, um, you know, I mean, I find giving
Speaker 1: advice for anything creatively really difficult because everyone's different. You
Speaker 1: find your own process, but it's encouragement really more important,
Speaker 1: and you were trying to be encouraging more than And
Speaker 1: also with writing, I remember someone saying to me when
Speaker 1: I was in my early twenties and I knocked on
Speaker 1: this TV XX door kind of trembling with a cup
Speaker 1: of tea for him, and he said, what do you want?
Speaker 1: And I said, I want to be a writer, and
Speaker 1: I don't know what to do. And he said, what
Speaker 1: you've written? And I was like nothing, and he went,
Speaker 1: the hardest thing about writing is writing. Just sit on
Speaker 1: the chair and write. And I said, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of people say they want to be writers and they've
Speaker 1: never written anything. What's your editing process? My editing process
Speaker 1: is sending it to my editor and then reading her notes,
Speaker 1: me really angry about them, and then taking them on board.
Speaker 1: Generally do push back as well. What is what is
Speaker 1: your relationship with us? Sort of trusting your instinct on that? Oh,
Speaker 1: it's absolutely my instinct. The winds all the time, but
Speaker 1: I do. She's my editor. We've been working four books
Speaker 1: together now, and she's I trust her opinion. And when
Speaker 1: she says that just isn't working, I know it really
Speaker 1: and my core that it isn't working. So no, but
Speaker 1: I actually get the more I write, the less editing
Speaker 1: there is to do. I think you get better at
Speaker 1: knowing your formula and that my spelling is terrible though,
Speaker 1: so that's fantastic fun fat what you just had follow
Speaker 1: me on Instagram to know that I can't spell those typos? Terrible, terrible. Okay, great.
Speaker 1: We are going to take another quick break and then
Speaker 1: when we would come back, we're going to find out
Speaker 1: who you chose as somebody want to focus on whose
Speaker 1: voice you admire, and I think it's like a telling
Speaker 1: about you as well. Okay, so we're back and we're
Speaker 1: gonna listen to who did you pick? I picked Alicia Keys.
Speaker 1: Anybody who follows you on Twitter might even have like
Speaker 1: sort of sense that you might have. I just thought
Speaker 1: she did such a brilliant job with the Grammys, and
Speaker 1: what she did so brilliantly, which hosts so rarely do.
Speaker 1: They can deliver jokes, they can do all these things.
Speaker 1: What they can't do is make you feel like it's intimate.
Speaker 1: And she someone said, a guy has quite a lot
Speaker 1: of events in the UK, and I used to go
Speaker 1: at it all wrong, big voice, trying to be funny
Speaker 1: like big and actually the time that I was quite hungover, actually,
Speaker 1: which really helps. I just spoke when it seems like
Speaker 1: it goes in the advice has to drink. When I
Speaker 1: just spoke really relaxed into the microphone, knowing that it
Speaker 1: was amplifying my voice and I didn't need to shout
Speaker 1: and just chatted to the audience and kind of jumped
Speaker 1: off a bit and made little jokes. That was the
Speaker 1: best thing a night of hosting I ever did. And
Speaker 1: I watched an absolute pro pulled that tactic off at
Speaker 1: the Grammys, and that was Alicia keys, because we were
Speaker 1: all in her living room just chatting to her. She
Speaker 1: was everybody's friend. She made eye contact, she looked around,
Speaker 1: she was gentle, she was soft, but she was utterly herself.
Speaker 1: And you felt like the Alicia that you got on
Speaker 1: stage would be the Alicia that you met backstage. And
Speaker 1: that is such a skill. And Chris and I were just, oh,
Speaker 1: I just thought she was perfect. Yeah, everything you said
Speaker 1: is such a valuable thing for all of us when
Speaker 1: we have those moments in front of an audience. It
Speaker 1: all goes wrong when you try and be something that
Speaker 1: you're not. And some people are those big hosts and
Speaker 1: they're like that in real life, and other people are
Speaker 1: just sincere. And if you're sincere and you're you're funny
Speaker 1: and you're natural, then that's who you should be on stage.
Speaker 1: And also another way of saying what you just said
Speaker 1: that I think is really valuable is a lot of
Speaker 1: us play at some version that we think we should
Speaker 1: be doing. Yes, whether it's about hosting or anything. Like
Speaker 1: a political candidate tends to sound like this, so funk
Speaker 1: I better sound like that, even if it's not my thing.
Speaker 1: There's such a thing in the UK, there's such the
Speaker 1: sound of a journalist in the UK, where they have
Speaker 1: this certain inflection and it's quite aggressive, and they kind
Speaker 1: of talk like this and when they're being when they're
Speaker 1: on the radio, and they all sound the same and
Speaker 1: it's fine, it works. That's what British journalists sound like.
Speaker 1: But I used to think I need to sound like that.
Speaker 1: And there's a few recordings of me kind of trying
Speaker 1: to do that, which I very quickly abandoned because that's
Speaker 1: not my style and not who I am, and probably
Speaker 1: why I felt so stupid being called a journalists because
Speaker 1: they didn't sound that way. And I see Alicia Keys
Speaker 1: as the ultimate inspiration on how to host an event
Speaker 1: for someone like me who doesn't want to be something else.
Speaker 1: That's right, that's right, And there's something about the phrase
Speaker 1: that you just use that is so valuable to underline
Speaker 1: is the same, which inspires a sort of generic nous. Yes,
Speaker 1: and why would you want to? It is an absolute
Speaker 1: playing safe move. And if you're in a super vulnerable position,
Speaker 1: you know you're the only woman in an all male
Speaker 1: whatever and you're trying to be taken seriously. There are
Speaker 1: reasons why we sort of minimize our quirks but like,
Speaker 1: let's be aware of that and sort of expand in
Speaker 1: those in the slightly safer spots, how much more ourselves
Speaker 1: we can be. You can I also have a little
Speaker 1: more piano in my ears, please, so I can properly
Speaker 1: serenade to people. You know, I need, I need the
Speaker 1: serenade for a minute. But you know what, I'm proud
Speaker 1: to be standing here, you know, I am, I am,
Speaker 1: and I'm proud to be here as an artist for
Speaker 1: the artists, with the people, and I feel the energy
Speaker 1: of all the beautiful artists in this room is going
Speaker 1: to be an amazing night. Well, I just you know
Speaker 1: the bit where she says, um, can I have some
Speaker 1: more piano in my ears? Breaking that fourth walls? What
Speaker 1: you ask for, what you need? When there would be
Speaker 1: a lot of no apology, Yes, there would have been
Speaker 1: a lot of performers that would just deal and then
Speaker 1: not have their not have a great experience themselves. And
Speaker 1: that's just sometimes the thing about that you understand when
Speaker 1: you're in this I keep bringing it back to the
Speaker 1: entertaining industry because that's my world. But if you're not
Speaker 1: having the best time, and what is the point If
Speaker 1: you are lucky enough to entertain for living, and you
Speaker 1: are holding yourself back or hiding yourself or not having
Speaker 1: the best time, and what is the point. And you
Speaker 1: see someone like that confident enough to say to turn
Speaker 1: the piano up, So I enjoy this too, and I
Speaker 1: want her and right, I mean completely. And also the
Speaker 1: sort of creating a facade where something is perfect when
Speaker 1: it doesn't feel perfect will not pay off. No, it doesn't,
Speaker 1: it doesn't. That was a good gamble that she took
Speaker 1: in that moment. I mean it wasn't even a gamble.
Speaker 1: It looked like it was completely natural. But I want
Speaker 1: to point out a few other things too, because god,
Speaker 1: she killed it. You're absolutely right, And part of it
Speaker 1: is breath. Part of it is it felt like Look,
Speaker 1: she was playing her own piano underscoring there for those
Speaker 1: of you who haven't watched it yet, but go and
Speaker 1: watch it. And obviously this is a lifelong thing. I
Speaker 1: mean she started playing piano when she was tiny. Note
Speaker 1: two selves that we should start doing that with her. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: accomplished pianists. But you know, there's something about being so
Speaker 1: embodied in that way where your fingers are, you know,
Speaker 1: doing something that your brain is asking them to do
Speaker 1: while you're also in the middle of your thoughts in
Speaker 1: front of millions of people, and trusting that like the whole,
Speaker 1: like the physical, actual system of yourself can do all
Speaker 1: of that as long as you're breathing, as long as
Speaker 1: you're trying to not have two realities going on at once,
Speaker 1: the one where you're like everything is perfect. I wish
Speaker 1: I'd asked for something earlier, but I missed the moment
Speaker 1: and the one where you want to get something across
Speaker 1: and move people. And if there aren't those two different
Speaker 1: things going on in once, there's just the I want
Speaker 1: to get something across and move people, And how can I,
Speaker 1: you know, breathe myself into being there. You can just
Speaker 1: tell that she she uses breath in more of a
Speaker 1: way of literally getting her sound out, can't you. She
Speaker 1: just feels centered. She feels centered, and you know, she's
Speaker 1: also sort of famous for not wearing makeup, and this
Speaker 1: feels like the vocal and performance version of not wearing makeup,
Speaker 1: like something that Alicia Keys does that we can all,
Speaker 1: you know, cos on in our own life is how
Speaker 1: do we reveal and reveal and reveal and just not hide? Yeah,
Speaker 1: and also how can we get her to be presidents.
Speaker 1: Can she can just say to us all the time?
Speaker 1: Canmagine what did the president say today? She's just serenade
Speaker 1: to use again, and the whole nation is delighted and
Speaker 1: like the emotional honesty too. I mean, she was so
Speaker 1: the right person for the right moment. Yes, I know
Speaker 1: that was Yeah, she was just brilliant. Anyway, it was
Speaker 1: a real lesson. I'm sure a lot of people just
Speaker 1: sit back and watch the show. But when you we
Speaker 1: find yourself occasionally in life standing on a stage in
Speaker 1: front of people and you see someone like that do it,
Speaker 1: it's a real master class and how to do it
Speaker 1: very well? Yeah yeah, yeah, And and for all of us,
Speaker 1: how we what we can do before we step onto
Speaker 1: that stage to really put to sleep those voices that
Speaker 1: are completely not going to help us. I mean a
Speaker 1: lot of our conversation has been about those voices as
Speaker 1: they've come up throughout our life and just being like
Speaker 1: I hear you, I hear you, but actually that's not
Speaker 1: people want what people wanted me. Thanks for being you
Speaker 1: do I'm not just so welcome. I'm going to crawl
Speaker 1: back into my cave of in security after this great,
Speaker 1: great sitting here, as of course it's saw into you.
Speaker 1: I have spread my legs wide open. Did you see
Speaker 1: what I look at? The life? I sat the I
Speaker 1: sat the entire interview, while you, by the way, seemed
Speaker 1: like you were quite dainty. I was quite dainty with
Speaker 1: my legs crossed, and over the course of this interview,
Speaker 1: my knees are like, why we look what I've been
Speaker 1: doing this entire time I've had I've had an I've
Speaker 1: had a knee up on the chair like I'm like like,
Speaker 1: I'm like taking up as much space as as dudely possible.
Speaker 1: It's good. That's good. Quite stunned. Thanks again, Don find
Speaker 1: her on social y'all at hot petuities h O T
Speaker 1: P A T O O T I E S. Thank
Speaker 1: you too, Don for coming in. You can find out
Speaker 1: more about her in the show notes or on our
Speaker 1: website Permission to Speak pod dot com. Also you can
Speaker 1: go to permission to Speak pod dot com if you
Speaker 1: have any awesome quotes you'd like me to read at
Speaker 1: the top of the episodes, and if you have any questions,
Speaker 1: I will do and ask me anything episode from time
Speaker 1: to time. And I want to know what is getting
Speaker 1: in the way of your voice. You can also send
Speaker 1: d M s or voice messages to our Instagram at
Speaker 1: Permission to Speak Pod, where we're posting a bunch of
Speaker 1: content and please join the community. Thanks as well to
Speaker 1: Sophie Lichterman and the team at iHeart Radio, to Megan Read,
Speaker 1: to my family and cohort, and to all of you.
Speaker 1: We're recording this podcast in the I Heart Radio studios
Speaker 1: in Hollywood on land that used to belong to the
Speaker 1: Tongva indigenous tribe, and you can visit U S d
Speaker 1: A C dot us to learn more about honoring native land.
Speaker 1: Permission to Speak is a production of I Heart Radio
Speaker 1: and Double Vision Executive produced by Katherine Burke Canton and
Speaker 1: Mark Canton. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, listen
Speaker 1: on the ihart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
Speaker 1: get your favorite shows.