WEBVTT - Episode 837: Protecting the American Worker 0:00:04.800 --> 0:00:06.240 On this episode of Nuts World. 0:00:06.840 --> 0:00:12.520 In twenty eighteen, Vincent Fernuccio and Jennifer Butler created Institute 0:00:12.520 --> 0:00:15.760 for the American Worker to better inform policy makers and 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:20.520 stakeholders in Washington, d C. About current developments and labor policy. 0:00:21.520 --> 0:00:24.520 The Institute for the American Worker worked with Congressman Burgess 0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:29.600 Owens to introduce the Start Applying Labor Transparency, or SALT Act, 0:00:29.880 --> 0:00:32.720 to amend the Labor Management Reporting and Disclosure Act of 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:38.120 nineteen fifty nine, requiring greater transparency and financial transactions between 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:42.000 unions and labor consultants, closing loopholes that have allowed backroom 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:45.560 deals to thrive. Here to discuss the SALT Act, I'm 0:00:45.600 --> 0:00:49.519 really pleased to welcome my guest, Vincent Bernuccio. He is 0:00:49.560 --> 0:00:52.840 the president and co founder of Institute for the American Worker. 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:55.920 He previously served in the US Department of Labor Transition 0:00:56.040 --> 0:00:59.959 team for both Trump administrations and served in the Joy 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:14.120 gege W. Bush Administration's Department of Labor. Vincent, welcome and 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:15.800 thank you for joining me on Each World. 0:01:16.560 --> 0:01:18.680 Mister speaker, Thank you so much for having me on. 0:01:18.760 --> 0:01:21.040 It is an absolute honor and I appreciate it. 0:01:21.319 --> 0:01:23.400 How did you get interested in this whole topic. 0:01:24.080 --> 0:01:26.840 Well, I graduated law school and I was looking for 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:29.240 a job. I actually we met when I was running 0:01:29.240 --> 0:01:32.399 for Congress in Michigan. I was a sacrificial land against 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:33.640 John dingle. 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:35.479 An active courage it. 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:37.560 Was, but you know, helped me my career. I got 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:41.720 on themigp and eventually it got me a appointment to 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:46.280 the Department of Labor under then Assistant Secretary for Administration 0:01:46.360 --> 0:01:50.640 Management and Deputy Secretary and Acting Secretary Pat Pizzella. And 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:52.560 then I was off to the races. And that's what 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:55.280 got me into labor policy and been doing it ever 0:01:55.320 --> 0:01:56.559 since the Bush administration. 0:01:57.080 --> 0:01:57.600 That's great. 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:03.640 Let's start with President Trump's recent executive action restoring accountability 0:02:03.680 --> 0:02:07.840 to policy influencing positions within the federal workforce. Can you 0:02:07.880 --> 0:02:10.760 walk us through what Schedule F is and why the 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:15.080 Trump administration sees it as essential for restoring accountability in 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:16.160 the federal workforce. 0:02:17.080 --> 0:02:19.560 Absolutely, so this is going to be one of the 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:22.720 most impactful things I think the President does. I'll just 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:24.120 give you a little bit of history. There's kind of 0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:26.920 been a ping pong on this. So in the first 0:02:26.960 --> 0:02:30.200 Trump administration, he issued an executive order called Schedule F 0:02:30.760 --> 0:02:34.000 President Biden got elected and put his hand on the Bible, 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:35.840 went to the Oval Office, and it was one of 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:38.880 the first things that he repealed. And then to President 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:41.920 Trump in the current administration, one of the first things 0:02:41.960 --> 0:02:44.359 he did is reinstitute that the executive Order, and he's 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:48.519 actually moved it from Schedule F to this Career Policy Schedule. 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:50.800 And let me tell you what this does. This essentially 0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:54.600 makes fifty thousand federal employees, or two percent of the 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:57.880 federal workforce, makes them at well employees just like most 0:02:57.919 --> 0:03:03.040 of the private sector, just like states like Utah, Texas, Florida, Kentucky, 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:07.200 Georgia and others already have. And the reason this is 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:12.239 so important is because if you have career federal employees 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:15.680 that aren't doing their job, whether because they're either just 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:18.000 not good, they just don't want to, or they simply 0:03:18.080 --> 0:03:22.000 just do not like the policies the president is putting forward, 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:26.360 this gives politicals the ability to say, well, you're not 0:03:26.400 --> 0:03:29.640 doing your job, you should be let go. And you know, 0:03:29.720 --> 0:03:33.040 I've seen this firsthand in multiple administrations that you can 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:36.840 see career federal bureaucrats actually throw sand in the gears 0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:39.520 of policy. And this would go a long way to 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:41.640 make sure that that doesn't happen. 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:48.080 When Lincoln became president, there were about fifteen hundred policy positions. 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:52.600 He eliminated twelve hundred of them because he knew that 0:03:52.720 --> 0:03:56.880 with Southerners and with Democrats, he couldn't win a civil 0:03:56.920 --> 0:04:01.160 war if they were the instrument of affecting things. So literally, 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:03.920 out of a total fifteen hundred and twelve hundred left. 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:07.040 And I always remind people that that giving the elected 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:12.200 official the ability to actually drive the bureaucracy is central, 0:04:12.240 --> 0:04:14.440 because if you don't do that, the bureaucrats really are 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:17.080 running the place and the elected officials are just on 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:20.320 the surface. Does Schedule F still exist or has it 0:04:20.400 --> 0:04:21.520 now got a new title. 0:04:22.080 --> 0:04:24.400 It's got a new title, and it makes sense. So 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:27.720 it was Schedule F under the first Trump administration. Now 0:04:27.760 --> 0:04:30.520 it is this policy Career schedule. And the reason for 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:33.440 the change is, once again, these are still civil servants. 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:37.080 They're still governed by the Civil Service for Formact. The 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:40.240 only difference is that if they are in a what's 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:44.679 known as policy influencing position, that if they're throwing sands 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:47.080 in the gears of that policy and they're thwarting the 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:51.839 people's elected representative. It's President Trump, it could be any president. 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:56.000 This goes beyond administration. It also goes beyond policy. This 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:59.160 isn't just a labor policy. This is energy, this is education, 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:05.279 this is financial services. That those elected representatives could say, well, 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:07.279 you know what, you're not doing your job. We don't 0:05:07.320 --> 0:05:11.000 have to go through this long, lengthy review process to 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:13.080 dismiss you. It's just you're not doing your job. You're 0:05:13.080 --> 0:05:15.040 now an out well employee. You're throwing sand to the 0:05:15.040 --> 0:05:17.279 gears of policy. You should be removed. 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:21.800 Well, obviously you're going to have some substantial opposition from 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:25.279 the American Federation of Government Employees in the National Treasure 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:26.039 Employees Union. 0:05:26.440 --> 0:05:27.440 What's their counter. 0:05:27.240 --> 0:05:31.520 Are they in favor of not having elected officials be effective? 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:35.159 Yes. What they are trying to do is essentially throw 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:38.160 sand in the gears of these type of reforms. What 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:41.200 they are pushing for is making it as difficult as 0:05:41.360 --> 0:05:46.360 possible to remove federal employees whether or not they're doing 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:49.880 their job. You see them opposing President Trump on this 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:54.040 executive order soon to be rule. You see them trying 0:05:54.080 --> 0:05:57.479 to throwart his other executive actions, such as, you know, 0:05:57.520 --> 0:06:01.920 protecting national security. He issued another executive order recently that 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:05.240 said that, you know, you can't have collective bargaining and 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:09.839 multiple federal agencies that deal with national security, something that 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:13.520 the law very clearly gives him the right to do 0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:17.000 and to determine which agencies those are. These unions they 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:19.320 like the status quo, they like the protections, and what 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:24.080 they don't like is accountability for those federal employees that 0:06:24.120 --> 0:06:27.039 are not doing their job. And frankly, I think that's 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:29.920 a disservice to the good federal employees. And there are 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:32.520 a lot of good federal employees out there. I've worked 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:36.080 with good career federal employees that then have to pick 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:39.360 up the slack for the ones that aren't doing what 0:06:39.400 --> 0:06:40.159 they're supposed to do. 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:43.640 As a part of all this, you have been strongly 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:48.560 supporting Representing Burgess Owen's bill, the Start Applying Labor Transparency 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:52.080 Act or SOLD Act. Walk us through what would that 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:53.920 do and why is that important? 0:06:54.800 --> 0:06:58.040 Absolutely so. Now we're shifting over from federal public sector 0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:01.840 unions too. Now we're talking about mostly private sector unions here. 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:05.080 And this is what Representative Owen's bill does. There's a 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:09.480 thing called salting. When unions come to organize, they can 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:14.520 have organizers that take jobs will lie to the employer 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:16.560 and say, well, I want to take this job, you know, 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:18.000 just to work for you think, you know, I just 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:20.560 want to be a barista at Starbucks, so give me 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:23.280 a job. What they're really doing is they're actually paid 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:26.240 by the union to take that job and then to 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:29.720 start organizing. And not only do they lie to the employer, 0:07:29.720 --> 0:07:32.160 but they also lie to the employees. I'm just your 0:07:32.160 --> 0:07:34.640 fellow coworker. Hey, have you heard about this union? Maybe 0:07:34.640 --> 0:07:38.400 it's a good idea. We've actually seen quotes of workers 0:07:38.400 --> 0:07:39.880 that say, well, you know, we thought this was kind 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:42.440 of schemey, I thought this person was my friend. Now 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:45.200 I find out that they're being paid to organize me. 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:48.480 What is this about. It actually gets so bad that 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:54.680 you had a paid union salt testify before Congress and 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:57.600 not put in their disclosure form that they were getting 0:07:57.600 --> 0:07:59.800 paid by the union. And they testified, Oh, I'm just 0:07:59.800 --> 0:08:03.000 a Starbucks barista, and then it later came about oh, 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:08.000 actually no, you're not. You're actually being paid to organize Starbucks. 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:10.960 That really called into question that person's testimony. 0:08:11.480 --> 0:08:13.520 Isn't that also a felony? Oh? 0:08:13.560 --> 0:08:16.160 I know that this was undee Chairwoman Virginia Fox. I 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:18.960 know there were investigations going on to see what exactly happened, 0:08:19.040 --> 0:08:23.520 especially when that union salt signed that truth and Testimony form. 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:28.040 Would this spill basically require that somebody who is being 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:30.280 salted has to make it public. 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:34.320 That's it? So right now, if an employer goes out 0:08:34.400 --> 0:08:37.280 and they hire a consultant to talk to their employees 0:08:37.800 --> 0:08:40.400 and say, you know, we don't think a union's right 0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:44.800 for us, that employer and the person they hire have 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:47.079 to fill out certain forms with the Department of Labor. 0:08:47.480 --> 0:08:49.280 And you know, the first ones you do within a month. 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:53.320 So we're just saying, why don't we have parity here? 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:58.560 If the employer has to report hiring someone to talk 0:08:58.600 --> 0:09:02.360 to employees about unionization, the unions, if they hire someone 0:09:02.440 --> 0:09:05.640 to talk to employees about unionization, they should file the 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:22.240 exact same forms. 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:25.040 All of this is built in a sense. 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:29.120 When the Labor Management Reporting and Disclosure Act of nineteen 0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:32.559 fifty nine, which was the first big effort to create 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:35.640 transparency in this area, why was it not adequate? 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:39.160 Basically, you know, it gave discretion. I would argue that 0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:42.200 the Department of Labor actually has the ability to say 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:44.320 that if you're talking to employees, whether you're on the 0:09:44.400 --> 0:09:47.719 union side or whether you're on the employer side, you 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:50.640 should file these forms. However, that's not how it is 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:55.720 being interpreted. So what Representative Owen's bill does is it says, well, 0:09:55.840 --> 0:09:59.000 since it's not being interpreted that way, let's be crystal 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:01.960 clear within the STAF that if you're talking to employees, 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:05.800 whether it's union or employer side, you should file these forms. 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:09.120 The whole process of getting all this out in the 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:13.160 open also relates back to what's really kind of a 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:17.040 bizarre model in the government, where we the taxpayers, are 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:21.560 actually paying for the union members to organize the government. 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:24.640 See if people who are supposedly being paid to be 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:28.520 civil servants, but they're actually being paid to be union organizers. 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:31.920 That's right. That's a process called official time. And it's 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:35.520 not just union organizers. It's actually doing all sorts of 0:10:35.559 --> 0:10:39.480 work on the taxpayer dime for the union. It's being 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:42.920 a union official, in some cases, working full time for 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:45.120 the union. This is actually something that President Trump did 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:47.960 away with in his first term. You had union officials 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:51.680 working full times in some cases for years for the union, 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:55.120 but still getting their taxpayer salary. So once again President 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:57.800 Trump deserves a lot of credit with this. He's put 0:10:57.800 --> 0:10:59.800 forth a policy to make sure that this is reported. 0:11:00.240 --> 0:11:03.360 Was reported in his first term, President Biden simply did 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:05.920 not report it. Now President Trump is saying it has 0:11:05.960 --> 0:11:08.440 to be reported again. But he has actually gone further, 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:12.760 and it's not just about how much the government is 0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:16.120 paying union officials with taxpayer dollars instead of doing their 0:11:16.200 --> 0:11:19.880 job to do union work. It's actually about how much 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:24.600 time federal employees, agency employees are doing just to negotiate 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:27.880 with the union, to handle grievances and all of these things. 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:31.440 Once again, to this administration's credit, the Office of Personnel 0:11:31.520 --> 0:11:35.280 Management a couple weeks ago said not only should agencies 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:39.480 report official time, but they should also report how much 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:43.600 agency time is spent on collective bargaining and speaker if 0:11:43.600 --> 0:11:45.200 you like, I can get into some of the just 0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:49.199 kind of crazy things that we have seen unions negotiate 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:50.920 over in the federal workforce. 0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:53.360 I think for the average taxpayer that would be really 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:56.600 helpful because most of us, including me, I know in 0:11:56.640 --> 0:11:58.960 general that it's much worse than we think it is, 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:01.599 but we don't really have specific examples. 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:05.320 The first one is. I was on a panel under 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:08.160 the first Trump administration, the Federal Service Impasses panel that 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:10.959 did mediation and arbitration between the federal government and federal 0:12:11.000 --> 0:12:12.880 unions when they came to an impass. So I saw 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:15.800 a lot of these cases firsthand. They're all public, and 0:12:15.840 --> 0:12:18.880 we actually put a study out on our website detail 0:12:18.920 --> 0:12:21.360 of all of this. It's all available at I the 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:24.800 number four AW dot org, IFAW dot org. But let 0:12:24.800 --> 0:12:27.480 me give you a couple examples. So one you had 0:12:27.520 --> 0:12:30.960 a union negotiating over being able to smoke on tobacco 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:35.280 free federal facilities. You had another one where they were 0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:39.240 negotiating over the right mister speaker reminds you the right 0:12:39.600 --> 0:12:43.760 to wear spandex in the office. And they had another 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:47.600 one where they were negotiating over the height of modesty 0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:50.679 panels under cubicles. It was an office move and does 0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:53.439 the cubicle go two inches or four inches above the 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:57.120 bottom of the floor. Now, they negotiated for years over 0:12:57.160 --> 0:13:00.600 this two inches versus four inches. They could have probably 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:04.599 purchase go plated cubicles for the entire office. For the 0:13:04.640 --> 0:13:06.680 amount of money that they spent in official time, in 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:10.600 staff time and travel and supplies, you name it. So 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:12.760 those are the things that they're bargaining over, and those 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:15.640 are the things that, thankfully will continue to come to 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:19.000 light with these transparency measures from the administration. 0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:21.880 Turns out across the whole government to be a lot 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:23.080 more money than people think. 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:28.000 Well, official time alone in the first Trump administration was 0:13:28.200 --> 0:13:30.480 well over one hundred million three was one hundred and 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:33.880 twenty something million dollars in official time, and that doesn't 0:13:33.920 --> 0:13:36.800 count how much on the agency side was spent. So 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:39.400 we're going to see probably some very high numbers, and 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:40.720 that's year over year. 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:46.320 A different front. Senator Josh Holly proposed the Faster Labor 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:51.000 Contracts Act, the Speed Up Union contract negotiations. I find 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:54.600 Holly interesting and complicated. What do you make of this bill? 0:13:55.120 --> 0:13:59.120 I think complicated is the right term. And unfortunately Senator 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:02.120 Howlly has this larger framework, and this is the first 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:05.560 bill from his larger framework, and it is pretty much 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:10.600 part and parcel borrowed from the Democrat Union wish List Bill, 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:14.480 the Protecting the Right to Organize Act or pro Act. Unfortunately, 0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:17.320 the timing was a little unfortunate for Senator Hawley. So 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:21.920 what this bill does is it would allow federal bureaucrats 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:28.400 to impose an arbitration panel on two private parties. So 0:14:28.480 --> 0:14:31.840 if a union organizes an employer and within a couple 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:34.240 of weeks, if they don't reach a collective bargaining agreement, 0:14:34.280 --> 0:14:36.400 first they say would go to mediation. So that's where 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:39.600 both sides come together as essentially marriage counseling, try to 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:42.440 get to an agreement. If that doesn't work within a 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:44.920 very short amount of time, then they go to arbitration, 0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:49.600 where these federal bureaucrats would impose this three person panel 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:55.200 that would actually write a contract for two private parties, 0:14:55.640 --> 0:14:58.360 one of which maybe never even agreed to the process 0:14:58.600 --> 0:15:01.640 in the first place. And I mean this everything at 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:05.920 a work site, ours, pay, working conditions, you name it. 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:08.320 So it's extremely troubling. 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:09.840 Two questions, guys. 0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:14.840 One, it strikes me that that literally gives the union 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:16.520 every reason not to agree. 0:15:17.080 --> 0:15:19.120 We've seen this in the public sector, not so much 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:21.800 in the private sector, but in the public sector where yeah, 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:24.360 you'll have one side and maybe it's the union, we'll 0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:27.400 stall the negotiations and then they get it to the arbitrator, 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:30.880 and the arbitrator will just look at maybe another unionized 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:33.280 facility and go well, they're getting this, so that works 0:15:33.280 --> 0:15:36.280 for them. This should work for this, whether city, town 0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:39.200 or in the Haley bill, now private company over here. 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:42.200 But let me tell you kind of the unfortunate timing 0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:47.040 of this. So those federal bureaucrats, they are at the FMCS, 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:51.560 the Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service, and right after this 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:55.680 bill was introduced, President Trump announced that he was ratcheting 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:59.160 back how much funding was going to fmcs. And actually, 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:00.760 at the same time, it was a little old, was 0:16:00.760 --> 0:16:05.160 about a decade old, but there was re unearthed reports 0:16:05.200 --> 0:16:09.840 of corruption and overspending and all these problems with fmcs. 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:13.040 So that was right after Senator Hawley introduced this bill 0:16:13.080 --> 0:16:17.239 that basically gave all of this power to the FMCS. 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:19.920 So we'll see what happens with it. But I know 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:24.640 a lot of people are extraordinarily skeptical of having federal 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:29.920 bureaucrats dictate these panels that could then write entire contracts 0:16:29.960 --> 0:16:31.160 for two private parties. 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:52.760 It seems to me that private sector unions have been 0:16:52.800 --> 0:16:56.000 steadily shrinking as a percent of the whole workforce, So 0:16:57.000 --> 0:17:01.440 trying to design a coercive bargaining system, it is essentially 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:05.879 an effort to fit back to growing the unions in 0:17:05.880 --> 0:17:08.640 the face of the fact that the American workers seem 0:17:08.680 --> 0:17:10.000 to be leaving them. 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:12.199 That's right. So this was the first year, and this 0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:15.960 is public in private that union membership drop below double 0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:20.600 digits nationwide. This is Baxsin's early nineteen hundreds. In the 0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:23.240 private sector, it's below six percent. I believe it's about 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:26.639 five point nine percent right now. And it's not so 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:29.320 much unions. I mean, I think unions can do good. 0:17:29.359 --> 0:17:32.679 I think unions can really help workers. The problem is 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:35.680 that they are in this antiquated, one size fits all 0:17:35.760 --> 0:17:40.520 kind of industrial revolution collective bargaining model that does not 0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:43.639 allow for flexibility, It does not allow for ingenuity, it 0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:48.000 does not allow for individual workers to be rewarded. I 0:17:48.040 --> 0:17:51.240 think today's modern workforce is looking at that model and saying, no, 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:54.840 that's not what I want. So instead of having this 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:57.879 framework that center Hawley is putting out, instead of having 0:17:57.920 --> 0:18:00.679 all of these government mandates to think that if you 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:03.760 really want to grow union membership and have unions thrive 0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:10.119 is have them adopt a new, flexible, individual focused professional 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:14.119 service business model as opposed to the compulsion they have today. 0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:16.720 In a sense, you'd move people towards more of a 0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:20.320 everybody gets to be a professional, as in a law firm, 0:18:20.960 --> 0:18:26.359 rather than the kind of classic indust show era mass unionization. 0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:31.159 Yeah, it's making them professional service organizations that you can 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:35.280 join voluntarily. The employers aren't compelled to negotiate with them, 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:39.080 but they will because unions can provide top notch services. 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:42.240 But I think that's the way of the future, you know. Unfortunately, 0:18:42.320 --> 0:18:45.760 even for workers now, a lot of unions not only 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:49.000 have a floor for pay, but they also have a ceiling. 0:18:49.680 --> 0:18:51.680 So in a lot of unions and a lot of 0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:54.560 collective bargaining agreements, the only way you get ahead is 0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:57.520 unless you get another degree, is logging another year on 0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:00.640 the job. Doesn't matter how hard you work, how productive 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:03.160 you are, how much money you make your boss, it's well, 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:05.600 you're under the CBA and the only way you're getting 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:08.920 a raise is by seniorti logging another year on the job. 0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:10.840 So I think that is why a lot of workers 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:12.879 are looking at unions and saying, yeah, it's just not 0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:13.199 for me. 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:15.160 We're entering a different era. 0:19:15.240 --> 0:19:17.399 It seems to me when you look both at the 0:19:18.800 --> 0:19:20.879 kind of bills like Halley for the private sector, and 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:24.280 then you look at what's happening with the Trump administration 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:26.960 reforms in the public sector. What do you think is 0:19:27.000 --> 0:19:31.080 the impact of public opinion? How important is it that 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:33.320 the American people understand these things. 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:36.320 Well, it's interesting because you see poll after poll unions 0:19:36.320 --> 0:19:39.840 do get high approval ratings. But the interesting thing is 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:42.000 that when you scratch the surface and this goes to 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:44.439 you that business model that a lot of workers just 0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:47.280 aren't buying right now is that, yeah, unions are good, 0:19:47.280 --> 0:19:49.359 we like unions. But then you scratch the surface and well, 0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:51.359 would you want a union at your workplace? Would you 0:19:51.359 --> 0:19:55.720 want to join a union? And that approval drops significantly. 0:19:56.400 --> 0:20:00.879 Unions they do have that public perception that they have support, 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:02.680 but it's a lot of well it's good that they're 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:04.879 out there, but I just don't think it's right for me. 0:20:05.000 --> 0:20:08.280 That's where I think that if you change that business 0:20:08.320 --> 0:20:12.080 model of the unions, the paradigm a collective bargaining, not 0:20:12.400 --> 0:20:14.840 what Senator Hawley is trying to do with his framework, 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:18.400 and certainly not what we're seeing out of the Democrats 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:21.560 with the Proact and all this force and compulsion and 0:20:21.600 --> 0:20:24.480 making it harder for workers to work for themselves or 0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:28.000 you know, attacking the franchise business model. All of this 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:32.480 in the proact, that's the problem. But workers just want 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:33.159 something different. 0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:35.000 I mean it does anyway that you have to put 0:20:35.000 --> 0:20:38.399 all this in the context of both competition from around 0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:42.520 the world and the scale of change that the emerging 0:20:42.600 --> 0:20:46.040 artificial intelligence is going to imply, and that, if anything, 0:20:46.800 --> 0:20:50.520 you're going to see more fluidity and more flexibility rather 0:20:50.600 --> 0:20:53.640 than more rigidity and the way the labor market operates 0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:56.200 over the next two or three generations. I mean, does 0:20:56.200 --> 0:20:57.600 that sort of fit your sense of it? 0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:00.879 That's absolutely correct, and you know you do see what 0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:03.359 does come to the flexibility and put AI aside for 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:06.440 a second. When it does come to flexibility, being able 0:21:06.440 --> 0:21:09.560 to work for yourself, being able to achieve by your 0:21:09.680 --> 0:21:12.200 merit or how hard you work. You see that that's 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:14.560 what workers are looking for. That's what modern and young 0:21:14.600 --> 0:21:18.080 workers are looking for, not this one size fits all model, 0:21:18.640 --> 0:21:21.159 not the compulsion of you have to do this or 0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:24.439 you have to live by this rigid contract. That is 0:21:24.480 --> 0:21:27.400 really where I think the future is. And I see 0:21:27.400 --> 0:21:30.040 the future in independent contract. You know, I was an 0:21:30.080 --> 0:21:32.960 independent contractor for a long time, and it can be 0:21:33.040 --> 0:21:36.840 very lucrative and it also gave me a lot of flexibility, 0:21:36.880 --> 0:21:40.000 you know, take on projects clients. I liked determine my 0:21:40.160 --> 0:21:42.360 own schedule when I wanted to be with my family. 0:21:42.960 --> 0:21:47.320 You see things like Representative Kylie has his Modern Worker 0:21:47.359 --> 0:21:52.400 Empowerment Bill and his Modern Worker Security Bill, and they're 0:21:52.920 --> 0:21:56.960 leaning into independent contracting, making it easier for workers to 0:21:57.160 --> 0:22:00.840 work for themselves, to get benefits if they're working for themselves. 0:22:00.880 --> 0:22:03.640 You saw that during the first Trump administration with their 0:22:03.680 --> 0:22:07.399 independent contract rule in the Department of Labor. Unfortunately, you 0:22:07.440 --> 0:22:10.560 see with the Proact in Congress, and what you saw 0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:13.240 coming out of the Body administration is that they were 0:22:13.280 --> 0:22:16.679 just going in the exact opposite direction and trying to 0:22:16.720 --> 0:22:19.240 make everyone in an employee and you know, borrowing the 0:22:19.720 --> 0:22:24.560 failed ideas from California of saying you can't work for yourself. 0:22:25.000 --> 0:22:28.400 Don't you think that to some extent that whole model 0:22:28.640 --> 0:22:33.120 of independent contractor may eventually be applied to the civil service. 0:22:34.080 --> 0:22:37.239 Federal government has a lot of independent contractors now. You 0:22:37.280 --> 0:22:39.560 do see that. You do see a lot of efforts 0:22:39.560 --> 0:22:41.720 out there, you know, kind of right size government. You know, 0:22:41.760 --> 0:22:44.520 there's ideas out there, like the Yellow Pages test if 0:22:44.520 --> 0:22:46.560 you can find something in the yellow pages. You shouldn't 0:22:46.600 --> 0:22:48.399