1 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: On this episode of Nuts World. 2 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 2: In twenty eighteen, Vincent Fernuccio and Jennifer Butler created Institute 3 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 2: for the American Worker to better inform policy makers and 4 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 2: stakeholders in Washington, d C. About current developments and labor policy. 5 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 2: The Institute for the American Worker worked with Congressman Burgess 6 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 2: Owens to introduce the Start Applying Labor Transparency, or SALT Act, 7 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 2: to amend the Labor Management Reporting and Disclosure Act of 8 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 2: nineteen fifty nine, requiring greater transparency and financial transactions between 9 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 2: unions and labor consultants, closing loopholes that have allowed backroom 10 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,560 Speaker 2: deals to thrive. Here to discuss the SALT Act, I'm 11 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 2: really pleased to welcome my guest, Vincent Bernuccio. He is 12 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:52,840 Speaker 2: the president and co founder of Institute for the American Worker. 13 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 2: He previously served in the US Department of Labor Transition 14 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:59,959 Speaker 2: team for both Trump administrations and served in the Joy 15 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 2: gege W. Bush Administration's Department of Labor. Vincent, welcome and 16 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 2: thank you for joining me on Each World. 17 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:18,680 Speaker 3: Mister speaker, Thank you so much for having me on. 18 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,040 Speaker 3: It is an absolute honor and I appreciate it. 19 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:23,400 Speaker 1: How did you get interested in this whole topic. 20 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 3: Well, I graduated law school and I was looking for 21 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 3: a job. I actually we met when I was running 22 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 3: for Congress in Michigan. I was a sacrificial land against 23 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 3: John dingle. 24 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:35,479 Speaker 1: An active courage it. 25 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 3: Was, but you know, helped me my career. I got 26 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 3: on themigp and eventually it got me a appointment to 27 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 3: the Department of Labor under then Assistant Secretary for Administration 28 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 3: Management and Deputy Secretary and Acting Secretary Pat Pizzella. And 29 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 3: then I was off to the races. And that's what 30 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 3: got me into labor policy and been doing it ever 31 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:56,559 Speaker 3: since the Bush administration. 32 00:01:57,080 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: That's great. 33 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 2: Let's start with President Trump's recent executive action restoring accountability 34 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 2: to policy influencing positions within the federal workforce. Can you 35 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 2: walk us through what Schedule F is and why the 36 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 2: Trump administration sees it as essential for restoring accountability in 37 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 2: the federal workforce. 38 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 3: Absolutely, so this is going to be one of the 39 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 3: most impactful things I think the President does. I'll just 40 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 3: give you a little bit of history. There's kind of 41 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 3: been a ping pong on this. So in the first 42 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 3: Trump administration, he issued an executive order called Schedule F 43 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 3: President Biden got elected and put his hand on the Bible, 44 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 3: went to the Oval Office, and it was one of 45 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 3: the first things that he repealed. And then to President 46 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:41,920 Speaker 3: Trump in the current administration, one of the first things 47 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:44,359 Speaker 3: he did is reinstitute that the executive Order, and he's 48 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:48,519 Speaker 3: actually moved it from Schedule F to this Career Policy Schedule. 49 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:50,800 Speaker 3: And let me tell you what this does. This essentially 50 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 3: makes fifty thousand federal employees, or two percent of the 51 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 3: federal workforce, makes them at well employees just like most 52 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 3: of the private sector, just like states like Utah, Texas, Florida, Kentucky, 53 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 3: Georgia and others already have. And the reason this is 54 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:12,239 Speaker 3: so important is because if you have career federal employees 55 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 3: that aren't doing their job, whether because they're either just 56 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 3: not good, they just don't want to, or they simply 57 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 3: just do not like the policies the president is putting forward, 58 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:26,360 Speaker 3: this gives politicals the ability to say, well, you're not 59 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 3: doing your job, you should be let go. And you know, 60 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 3: I've seen this firsthand in multiple administrations that you can 61 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 3: see career federal bureaucrats actually throw sand in the gears 62 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 3: of policy. And this would go a long way to 63 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 3: make sure that that doesn't happen. 64 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 2: When Lincoln became president, there were about fifteen hundred policy positions. 65 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 2: He eliminated twelve hundred of them because he knew that 66 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 2: with Southerners and with Democrats, he couldn't win a civil 67 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 2: war if they were the instrument of affecting things. So literally, 68 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 2: out of a total fifteen hundred and twelve hundred left. 69 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 2: And I always remind people that that giving the elected 70 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 2: official the ability to actually drive the bureaucracy is central, 71 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 2: because if you don't do that, the bureaucrats really are 72 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 2: running the place and the elected officials are just on 73 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 2: the surface. Does Schedule F still exist or has it 74 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 2: now got a new title. 75 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 3: It's got a new title, and it makes sense. So 76 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:27,720 Speaker 3: it was Schedule F under the first Trump administration. Now 77 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 3: it is this policy Career schedule. And the reason for 78 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 3: the change is, once again, these are still civil servants. 79 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 3: They're still governed by the Civil Service for Formact. The 80 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 3: only difference is that if they are in a what's 81 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:44,679 Speaker 3: known as policy influencing position, that if they're throwing sands 82 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 3: in the gears of that policy and they're thwarting the 83 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 3: people's elected representative. It's President Trump, it could be any president. 84 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 3: This goes beyond administration. It also goes beyond policy. This 85 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:59,160 Speaker 3: isn't just a labor policy. This is energy, this is education, 86 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 3: this is financial services. That those elected representatives could say, well, 87 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 3: you know what, you're not doing your job. We don't 88 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 3: have to go through this long, lengthy review process to 89 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 3: dismiss you. It's just you're not doing your job. You're 90 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:15,040 Speaker 3: now an out well employee. You're throwing sand to the 91 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:17,279 Speaker 3: gears of policy. You should be removed. 92 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 2: Well, obviously you're going to have some substantial opposition from 93 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 2: the American Federation of Government Employees in the National Treasure 94 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:26,039 Speaker 2: Employees Union. 95 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: What's their counter. 96 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 2: Are they in favor of not having elected officials be effective? 97 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:35,159 Speaker 3: Yes. What they are trying to do is essentially throw 98 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 3: sand in the gears of these type of reforms. What 99 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 3: they are pushing for is making it as difficult as 100 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 3: possible to remove federal employees whether or not they're doing 101 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 3: their job. You see them opposing President Trump on this 102 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 3: executive order soon to be rule. You see them trying 103 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:57,479 Speaker 3: to throwart his other executive actions, such as, you know, 104 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 3: protecting national security. He issued another executive order recently that 105 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 3: said that, you know, you can't have collective bargaining and 106 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:09,839 Speaker 3: multiple federal agencies that deal with national security, something that 107 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 3: the law very clearly gives him the right to do 108 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 3: and to determine which agencies those are. These unions they 109 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 3: like the status quo, they like the protections, and what 110 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 3: they don't like is accountability for those federal employees that 111 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,039 Speaker 3: are not doing their job. And frankly, I think that's 112 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 3: a disservice to the good federal employees. And there are 113 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 3: a lot of good federal employees out there. I've worked 114 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 3: with good career federal employees that then have to pick 115 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:39,360 Speaker 3: up the slack for the ones that aren't doing what 116 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:40,159 Speaker 3: they're supposed to do. 117 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 2: As a part of all this, you have been strongly 118 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 2: supporting Representing Burgess Owen's bill, the Start Applying Labor Transparency 119 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 2: Act or SOLD Act. Walk us through what would that 120 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:53,920 Speaker 2: do and why is that important? 121 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 3: Absolutely so. Now we're shifting over from federal public sector 122 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,840 Speaker 3: unions too. Now we're talking about mostly private sector unions here. 123 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 3: And this is what Representative Owen's bill does. There's a 124 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 3: thing called salting. When unions come to organize, they can 125 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 3: have organizers that take jobs will lie to the employer 126 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 3: and say, well, I want to take this job, you know, 127 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 3: just to work for you think, you know, I just 128 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 3: want to be a barista at Starbucks, so give me 129 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 3: a job. What they're really doing is they're actually paid 130 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 3: by the union to take that job and then to 131 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 3: start organizing. And not only do they lie to the employer, 132 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 3: but they also lie to the employees. I'm just your 133 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 3: fellow coworker. Hey, have you heard about this union? Maybe 134 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 3: it's a good idea. We've actually seen quotes of workers 135 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 3: that say, well, you know, we thought this was kind 136 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 3: of schemey, I thought this person was my friend. Now 137 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 3: I find out that they're being paid to organize me. 138 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 3: What is this about. It actually gets so bad that 139 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 3: you had a paid union salt testify before Congress and 140 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 3: not put in their disclosure form that they were getting 141 00:07:57,600 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 3: paid by the union. And they testified, Oh, I'm just 142 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 3: a Starbucks barista, and then it later came about oh, 143 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 3: actually no, you're not. You're actually being paid to organize Starbucks. 144 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 3: That really called into question that person's testimony. 145 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: Isn't that also a felony? Oh? 146 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 3: I know that this was undee Chairwoman Virginia Fox. I 147 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 3: know there were investigations going on to see what exactly happened, 148 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 3: especially when that union salt signed that truth and Testimony form. 149 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 2: Would this spill basically require that somebody who is being 150 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 2: salted has to make it public. 151 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,320 Speaker 3: That's it? So right now, if an employer goes out 152 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 3: and they hire a consultant to talk to their employees 153 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 3: and say, you know, we don't think a union's right 154 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 3: for us, that employer and the person they hire have 155 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:47,079 Speaker 3: to fill out certain forms with the Department of Labor. 156 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 3: And you know, the first ones you do within a month. 157 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 3: So we're just saying, why don't we have parity here? 158 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 3: If the employer has to report hiring someone to talk 159 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 3: to employees about unionization, the unions, if they hire someone 160 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 3: to talk to employees about unionization, they should file the 161 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 3: exact same forms. 162 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: All of this is built in a sense. 163 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 2: When the Labor Management Reporting and Disclosure Act of nineteen 164 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,559 Speaker 2: fifty nine, which was the first big effort to create 165 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 2: transparency in this area, why was it not adequate? 166 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 3: Basically, you know, it gave discretion. I would argue that 167 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 3: the Department of Labor actually has the ability to say 168 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 3: that if you're talking to employees, whether you're on the 169 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:47,719 Speaker 3: union side or whether you're on the employer side, you 170 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 3: should file these forms. However, that's not how it is 171 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 3: being interpreted. So what Representative Owen's bill does is it says, well, 172 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 3: since it's not being interpreted that way, let's be crystal 173 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 3: clear within the STAF that if you're talking to employees, 174 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 3: whether it's union or employer side, you should file these forms. 175 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 2: The whole process of getting all this out in the 176 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 2: open also relates back to what's really kind of a 177 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 2: bizarre model in the government, where we the taxpayers, are 178 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 2: actually paying for the union members to organize the government. 179 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 2: See if people who are supposedly being paid to be 180 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 2: civil servants, but they're actually being paid to be union organizers. 181 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 3: That's right. That's a process called official time. And it's 182 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 3: not just union organizers. It's actually doing all sorts of 183 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 3: work on the taxpayer dime for the union. It's being 184 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 3: a union official, in some cases, working full time for 185 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 3: the union. This is actually something that President Trump did 186 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 3: away with in his first term. You had union officials 187 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 3: working full times in some cases for years for the union, 188 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 3: but still getting their taxpayer salary. So once again President 189 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 3: Trump deserves a lot of credit with this. He's put 190 00:10:57,800 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 3: forth a policy to make sure that this is reported. 191 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 3: Was reported in his first term, President Biden simply did 192 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 3: not report it. Now President Trump is saying it has 193 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 3: to be reported again. But he has actually gone further, 194 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 3: and it's not just about how much the government is 195 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 3: paying union officials with taxpayer dollars instead of doing their 196 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 3: job to do union work. It's actually about how much 197 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 3: time federal employees, agency employees are doing just to negotiate 198 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 3: with the union, to handle grievances and all of these things. 199 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:31,440 Speaker 3: Once again, to this administration's credit, the Office of Personnel 200 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 3: Management a couple weeks ago said not only should agencies 201 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 3: report official time, but they should also report how much 202 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 3: agency time is spent on collective bargaining and speaker if 203 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:45,200 Speaker 3: you like, I can get into some of the just 204 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:49,199 Speaker 3: kind of crazy things that we have seen unions negotiate 205 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 3: over in the federal workforce. 206 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 2: I think for the average taxpayer that would be really 207 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 2: helpful because most of us, including me, I know in 208 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:58,960 Speaker 2: general that it's much worse than we think it is, 209 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:01,599 Speaker 2: but we don't really have specific examples. 210 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:05,320 Speaker 3: The first one is. I was on a panel under 211 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 3: the first Trump administration, the Federal Service Impasses panel that 212 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,959 Speaker 3: did mediation and arbitration between the federal government and federal 213 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 3: unions when they came to an impass. So I saw 214 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 3: a lot of these cases firsthand. They're all public, and 215 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 3: we actually put a study out on our website detail 216 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 3: of all of this. It's all available at I the 217 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 3: number four AW dot org, IFAW dot org. But let 218 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 3: me give you a couple examples. So one you had 219 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 3: a union negotiating over being able to smoke on tobacco 220 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 3: free federal facilities. You had another one where they were 221 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 3: negotiating over the right mister speaker reminds you the right 222 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 3: to wear spandex in the office. And they had another 223 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 3: one where they were negotiating over the height of modesty 224 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:50,679 Speaker 3: panels under cubicles. It was an office move and does 225 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,439 Speaker 3: the cubicle go two inches or four inches above the 226 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 3: bottom of the floor. Now, they negotiated for years over 227 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 3: this two inches versus four inches. They could have probably 228 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:04,599 Speaker 3: purchase go plated cubicles for the entire office. For the 229 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 3: amount of money that they spent in official time, in 230 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 3: staff time and travel and supplies, you name it. So 231 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 3: those are the things that they're bargaining over, and those 232 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 3: are the things that, thankfully will continue to come to 233 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 3: light with these transparency measures from the administration. 234 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 2: Turns out across the whole government to be a lot 235 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 2: more money than people think. 236 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 3: Well, official time alone in the first Trump administration was 237 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 3: well over one hundred million three was one hundred and 238 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 3: twenty something million dollars in official time, and that doesn't 239 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 3: count how much on the agency side was spent. So 240 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 3: we're going to see probably some very high numbers, and 241 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 3: that's year over year. 242 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:46,320 Speaker 2: A different front. Senator Josh Holly proposed the Faster Labor 243 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 2: Contracts Act, the Speed Up Union contract negotiations. I find 244 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 2: Holly interesting and complicated. What do you make of this bill? 245 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 3: I think complicated is the right term. And unfortunately Senator 246 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 3: Howlly has this larger framework, and this is the first 247 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 3: bill from his larger framework, and it is pretty much 248 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 3: part and parcel borrowed from the Democrat Union wish List Bill, 249 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 3: the Protecting the Right to Organize Act or pro Act. Unfortunately, 250 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 3: the timing was a little unfortunate for Senator Hawley. So 251 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 3: what this bill does is it would allow federal bureaucrats 252 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 3: to impose an arbitration panel on two private parties. So 253 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 3: if a union organizes an employer and within a couple 254 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 3: of weeks, if they don't reach a collective bargaining agreement, 255 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 3: first they say would go to mediation. So that's where 256 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 3: both sides come together as essentially marriage counseling, try to 257 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 3: get to an agreement. If that doesn't work within a 258 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 3: very short amount of time, then they go to arbitration, 259 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 3: where these federal bureaucrats would impose this three person panel 260 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 3: that would actually write a contract for two private parties, 261 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 3: one of which maybe never even agreed to the process 262 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 3: in the first place. And I mean this everything at 263 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 3: a work site, ours, pay, working conditions, you name it. 264 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 3: So it's extremely troubling. 265 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: Two questions, guys. 266 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 2: One, it strikes me that that literally gives the union 267 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 2: every reason not to agree. 268 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 3: We've seen this in the public sector, not so much 269 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 3: in the private sector, but in the public sector where yeah, 270 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 3: you'll have one side and maybe it's the union, we'll 271 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 3: stall the negotiations and then they get it to the arbitrator, 272 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 3: and the arbitrator will just look at maybe another unionized 273 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 3: facility and go well, they're getting this, so that works 274 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 3: for them. This should work for this, whether city, town 275 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 3: or in the Haley bill, now private company over here. 276 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 3: But let me tell you kind of the unfortunate timing 277 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 3: of this. So those federal bureaucrats, they are at the FMCS, 278 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 3: the Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service, and right after this 279 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 3: bill was introduced, President Trump announced that he was ratcheting 280 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 3: back how much funding was going to fmcs. And actually, 281 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 3: at the same time, it was a little old, was 282 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 3: about a decade old, but there was re unearthed reports 283 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 3: of corruption and overspending and all these problems with fmcs. 284 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 3: So that was right after Senator Hawley introduced this bill 285 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:17,239 Speaker 3: that basically gave all of this power to the FMCS. 286 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 3: So we'll see what happens with it. But I know 287 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 3: a lot of people are extraordinarily skeptical of having federal 288 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 3: bureaucrats dictate these panels that could then write entire contracts 289 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 3: for two private parties. 290 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 2: It seems to me that private sector unions have been 291 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 2: steadily shrinking as a percent of the whole workforce, So 292 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 2: trying to design a coercive bargaining system, it is essentially 293 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 2: an effort to fit back to growing the unions in 294 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:08,640 Speaker 2: the face of the fact that the American workers seem 295 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 2: to be leaving them. 296 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:12,199 Speaker 3: That's right. So this was the first year, and this 297 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 3: is public in private that union membership drop below double 298 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 3: digits nationwide. This is Baxsin's early nineteen hundreds. In the 299 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 3: private sector, it's below six percent. I believe it's about 300 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 3: five point nine percent right now. And it's not so 301 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 3: much unions. I mean, I think unions can do good. 302 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,679 Speaker 3: I think unions can really help workers. The problem is 303 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,680 Speaker 3: that they are in this antiquated, one size fits all 304 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 3: kind of industrial revolution collective bargaining model that does not 305 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:43,639 Speaker 3: allow for flexibility, It does not allow for ingenuity, it 306 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 3: does not allow for individual workers to be rewarded. I 307 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 3: think today's modern workforce is looking at that model and saying, no, 308 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 3: that's not what I want. So instead of having this 309 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,879 Speaker 3: framework that center Hawley is putting out, instead of having 310 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:00,679 Speaker 3: all of these government mandates to think that if you 311 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 3: really want to grow union membership and have unions thrive 312 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:10,119 Speaker 3: is have them adopt a new, flexible, individual focused professional 313 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:14,119 Speaker 3: service business model as opposed to the compulsion they have today. 314 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 2: In a sense, you'd move people towards more of a 315 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 2: everybody gets to be a professional, as in a law firm, 316 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 2: rather than the kind of classic indust show era mass unionization. 317 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:31,159 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's making them professional service organizations that you can 318 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 3: join voluntarily. The employers aren't compelled to negotiate with them, 319 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 3: but they will because unions can provide top notch services. 320 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 3: But I think that's the way of the future, you know. Unfortunately, 321 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 3: even for workers now, a lot of unions not only 322 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 3: have a floor for pay, but they also have a ceiling. 323 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:51,680 Speaker 3: So in a lot of unions and a lot of 324 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 3: collective bargaining agreements, the only way you get ahead is 325 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 3: unless you get another degree, is logging another year on 326 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:00,640 Speaker 3: the job. Doesn't matter how hard you work, how productive 327 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,160 Speaker 3: you are, how much money you make your boss, it's well, 328 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 3: you're under the CBA and the only way you're getting 329 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,920 Speaker 3: a raise is by seniorti logging another year on the job. 330 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 3: So I think that is why a lot of workers 331 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 3: are looking at unions and saying, yeah, it's just not 332 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:13,199 Speaker 3: for me. 333 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:15,160 Speaker 1: We're entering a different era. 334 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 2: It seems to me when you look both at the 335 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:20,879 Speaker 2: kind of bills like Halley for the private sector, and 336 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 2: then you look at what's happening with the Trump administration 337 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 2: reforms in the public sector. What do you think is 338 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 2: the impact of public opinion? How important is it that 339 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 2: the American people understand these things. 340 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 3: Well, it's interesting because you see poll after poll unions 341 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 3: do get high approval ratings. But the interesting thing is 342 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 3: that when you scratch the surface and this goes to 343 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:44,439 Speaker 3: you that business model that a lot of workers just 344 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 3: aren't buying right now is that, yeah, unions are good, 345 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 3: we like unions. But then you scratch the surface and well, 346 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 3: would you want a union at your workplace? Would you 347 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 3: want to join a union? And that approval drops significantly. 348 00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:00,879 Speaker 3: Unions they do have that public perception that they have support, 349 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:02,680 Speaker 3: but it's a lot of well it's good that they're 350 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 3: out there, but I just don't think it's right for me. 351 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 3: That's where I think that if you change that business 352 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 3: model of the unions, the paradigm a collective bargaining, not 353 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 3: what Senator Hawley is trying to do with his framework, 354 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,400 Speaker 3: and certainly not what we're seeing out of the Democrats 355 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 3: with the Proact and all this force and compulsion and 356 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 3: making it harder for workers to work for themselves or 357 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 3: you know, attacking the franchise business model. All of this 358 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 3: in the proact, that's the problem. But workers just want 359 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 3: something different. 360 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 2: I mean it does anyway that you have to put 361 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:38,399 Speaker 2: all this in the context of both competition from around 362 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 2: the world and the scale of change that the emerging 363 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 2: artificial intelligence is going to imply, and that, if anything, 364 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 2: you're going to see more fluidity and more flexibility rather 365 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,640 Speaker 2: than more rigidity and the way the labor market operates 366 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 2: over the next two or three generations. I mean, does 367 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 2: that sort of fit your sense of it? 368 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 3: That's absolutely correct, and you know you do see what 369 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 3: does come to the flexibility and put AI aside for 370 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 3: a second. When it does come to flexibility, being able 371 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 3: to work for yourself, being able to achieve by your 372 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 3: merit or how hard you work. You see that that's 373 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 3: what workers are looking for. That's what modern and young 374 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 3: workers are looking for, not this one size fits all model, 375 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,159 Speaker 3: not the compulsion of you have to do this or 376 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,439 Speaker 3: you have to live by this rigid contract. That is 377 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,400 Speaker 3: really where I think the future is. And I see 378 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 3: the future in independent contract. You know, I was an 379 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 3: independent contractor for a long time, and it can be 380 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 3: very lucrative and it also gave me a lot of flexibility, 381 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 3: you know, take on projects clients. I liked determine my 382 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:42,360 Speaker 3: own schedule when I wanted to be with my family. 383 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 3: You see things like Representative Kylie has his Modern Worker 384 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:52,400 Speaker 3: Empowerment Bill and his Modern Worker Security Bill, and they're 385 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 3: leaning into independent contracting, making it easier for workers to 386 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 3: work for themselves, to get benefits if they're working for themselves. 387 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,640 Speaker 3: You saw that during the first Trump administration with their 388 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,399 Speaker 3: independent contract rule in the Department of Labor. Unfortunately, you 389 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 3: see with the Proact in Congress, and what you saw 390 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 3: coming out of the Body administration is that they were 391 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,679 Speaker 3: just going in the exact opposite direction and trying to 392 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 3: make everyone in an employee and you know, borrowing the 393 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 3: failed ideas from California of saying you can't work for yourself. 394 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:28,400 Speaker 2: Don't you think that to some extent that whole model 395 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:33,120 Speaker 2: of independent contractor may eventually be applied to the civil service. 396 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:37,239 Speaker 3: Federal government has a lot of independent contractors now. You 397 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 3: do see that. You do see a lot of efforts 398 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 3: out there, you know, kind of right size government. You know, 399 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 3: there's ideas out there, like the Yellow Pages test if 400 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 3: you can find something in the yellow pages. You shouldn't 401 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:48,399 Speaker 3: have a career sort of a servant doing it. It 402 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 3: should just be contracted out. Contracting is something that you know, 403 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 3: the federal government specifically does a lot of, and you 404 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 3: know you do hear a lot about that, and I 405 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 3: think there the efforts are to make contracting fair, you know, 406 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 3: to get the best and most economical contractors without a 407 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 3: lot of extra strings attached. And once again you saw 408 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 3: a lot of those strings, especially in the Union context 409 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 3: during the Biden administration. 410 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 1: The whole process. 411 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,119 Speaker 2: It seems to me the long term trend is towards 412 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:24,680 Speaker 2: more flexibility, more unique designs, more opportunities because we now 413 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 2: have the technology that can handle the complexity. 414 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,119 Speaker 3: Not only do we have the technology that can handle 415 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 3: the complexity on that, but I think we have a 416 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,159 Speaker 3: workforce that that's what they want. They want that flexibility, 417 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,880 Speaker 3: they want that ability to earn and achieve on their 418 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 3: own without being put into some one size fits all 419 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 3: contract That essentially is a business model that is several 420 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 3: generations too old and really has not adapted with the times. 421 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,439 Speaker 3: But unfortunately, we're seeing a lot of the bills that 422 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 3: look to favor that Model's simply just doubling down on 423 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,679 Speaker 3: that failed business model of the past that has not 424 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 3: kept up with the economy and the modern workforce. 425 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, as you look out over the next three to 426 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 2: five years, what do you see as the major projects 427 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:12,239 Speaker 2: that you will be undertaking. 428 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 3: For I for a w Obviously we want to support 429 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 3: the administration. They have this rule making out right now, 430 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:21,880 Speaker 3: going back to that policy career schedule. So we have 431 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 3: a portion of our website, I the number four aw 432 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 3: dot org that goes into detail on that rule. We 433 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 3: have it on a regulation watch portion of O website, 434 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 3: and we actually have a link there where people can 435 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,439 Speaker 3: go and comment and say, yes, this is a good idea. 436 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 3: You know, the people's elected representatives should have a civil 437 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,959 Speaker 3: service that is not throwing sand in the gears of 438 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,680 Speaker 3: the policies that they were enacted to create. We see 439 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 3: good labor bills that are coming out of Congress, like 440 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 3: those two Kylie bills we were talking about before, the 441 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 3: Modern Worker Empowerment Act and the Modern Worker Security Act. 442 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 3: We see Representative Bob Ander, who's a freshman who I 443 00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,959 Speaker 3: worked with very closely when he was in the Missouri 444 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 3: state legislator. He introduced a bill called the Worker Enfranchisement Act, 445 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:06,679 Speaker 3: And this bill would say that if unions want to 446 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,879 Speaker 3: monopoly to represent everyone once again in a private sector workplace, 447 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 3: that they should get a majority of everyone. And it 448 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,440 Speaker 3: actually calls for the same quorum that the National Labor 449 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,959 Speaker 3: Relations Board that will do these elections does and says that, 450 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,119 Speaker 3: you know, you should have two thirds of the employees voting, 451 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 3: and if a majority of those two thirds, so really 452 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 3: you're roughly saying, if you know, thirty three percent plus 453 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,679 Speaker 3: one of workers vote for the union, that's how they 454 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 3: get in. But you shouldn't have these elections where single 455 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,479 Speaker 3: digits of percentages of employees vote to bring a union in. 456 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:39,199 Speaker 3: So those are just some of the bills. You know, 457 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 3: we're very excited on. The Employee Rights Act was introduced 458 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 3: last Congress. That was kind of all the good ideas 459 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 3: that a lot of the Republicans had, or most of 460 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 3: the good ideas a lot of Republicans had. So hopefully 461 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 3: that will reintroduce this Congress, and that you know, there's 462 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 3: a whole bunch of other good ideas out there, both 463 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,920 Speaker 3: coming from Congress and coming from the administration. 464 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 2: You know, you mentioned in passing the new effort to 465 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 2: basically outlaw independent working. Can you talk to us for 466 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 2: a second about the whole political structure of California as 467 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 2: it relates to compulsory unionization. 468 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 3: Well, unions, as you can imagine, are extremely powerful in California, 469 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 3: and I think that's a reason why there's some of 470 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 3: the issues out there. So if we're talking about their 471 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,439 Speaker 3: attacks on independent contracting, and you know what put that 472 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 3: in context of, you know, some of the federal work 473 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 3: that we do is they passed what was known as 474 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 3: AB five several years ago, and imediately after AB five 475 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 3: was enacted, they realized we went too far. We did 476 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 3: this thing, it was called the ABC test. It made 477 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 3: independent contracting nearly impossible, and wanted to make everyone into 478 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 3: an employee. Well, they realized that went too far, and 479 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,399 Speaker 3: they actually passed another bill and it was actually the 480 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 3: same author of the original AB five passed another bill 481 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 3: to create all these exemptions from AB five. And then 482 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 3: after they did that, voters said, well, it still goes 483 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 3: too far, and then they on when the ballot, passed 484 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 3: more exemptions and ratcheted back AB five. But now that 485 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 3: ABC test without those exemptions, that is exactly what's in 486 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 3: Congress's protecting the right to organize act so without the exemptions, 487 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 3: and when even California said you went too far, now 488 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 3: Congress is pushing the exact same thing. So it is 489 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 3: extremely troubling. And on our website we also have stories 490 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,639 Speaker 3: from California and AB five And I can think of 491 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 3: one woman that actually had to leave the state because 492 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 3: she wanted the flexibility. She did online teaching and she 493 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 3: wanted to take care of her infant children and she 494 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,160 Speaker 3: couldn't do that if she was an employee. And when 495 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 3: AB five passed, she realized, well, my business is drying up, 496 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,160 Speaker 3: so she actually moved out of state to make sure 497 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,720 Speaker 3: that she could keep helping to support her family and 498 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 3: also have the flexibility to spend time with her kids. 499 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,120 Speaker 3: We have a lot of those stories on the website 500 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:54,639 Speaker 3: and it really is telling. 501 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:56,920 Speaker 2: Well till Marco, Well, look, I want to thank you 502 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:01,159 Speaker 2: both for the leadership you're providing for joining us today. 503 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 2: Our listeners can find out more about what you do 504 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,639 Speaker 2: at the Institute for the American Worker by visiting your 505 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 2: website at IFOAW dot org. And I really appreciate Vincent 506 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 2: you're taking time to. 507 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 1: Be with us. 508 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 3: Hey, thank you for having me on. 509 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 2: Thank you to my guest, Vincent Nuccio. You can learn 510 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 2: more about the Institute for the American Worker on our 511 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 2: show page at newtsworld dot com. Newsworld is produced by 512 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:33,159 Speaker 2: Ganglish Sweet sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producers Guarnsey Sloan. 513 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 2: Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show 514 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 2: was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team 515 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 2: at gingwishweet sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope 516 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,960 Speaker 2: you'll go to Apple Podcasts and both rate us with 517 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,959 Speaker 2: five stars and give us a review so others can 518 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 2: learn what it's all about. 519 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners of. 520 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 2: News World can sign up for my three free weekly 521 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 2: columns at gingwishree sixty dot com slash newsletter. 522 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: I'm newt Gingga, which this is news World. 523 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 3: Hm